Does Frank Wren now jump into the trade market?

[PawPawMaxwell]

We all know that the Braves are not prone to going thru with arbitration. In fact, the last guy they went to court with IIRC was Rocker in 2001 or so.

It would appear at least as of now that Braves are far apart with Kimbrel, Heyward, Minor and Freeman. What are your thoughts on each. What would they bring in return NOW and which teams have needs of these players?

I think to some degree, all of us are kinda prepared for the worse.

[zitothebrave]

If we trade one of them we're screwed. Unless they bring more major league return in. You just listed our best pitcher, best reliever, and best position player from last year and Heyward who may have been the best position player if he played all season.

I wouldn't trade a single one of them.

[Jay212033]

How bout this 3 team deal?


Seattle gets:
Craig Kimbrel - CP

Rays get:
Nick Franklin - SS/2B(from Seattle)
Tyler Pike - SP(from Seattle)
Christian Bethancourt - C
J.R. Graham - SP

Braves get:
David Price - SP

[zitothebrave]

Rays I don't think do that. I'd do it of course, but I see no way the Rays make that trade. Who knows if Seattle does.

[nsacpi]

If we trade one of them we're screwed. Unless they bring more major league return in. You just listed our best pitcher, best reliever, and best position player from last year and Heyward who may have been the best position player if he played all season.

I wouldn't trade a single one of them.

Also Minor, Kimbrel, Heyward and Freeman are all cheap if you look at their expected production versus expected salaries in 2014. So if you move one of them, the return is unlikely to produce a better bang for the buck in 2014. I suppose there is the possibility of a deal that would give you more in the future, while giving up major bang for the buck in 2014. But it would be very hard to put together a deal involving trading away one of those four that would improve the team in 2014.

[nsacpi]

Btw the default strategy of letting these guys eventually go to free agency and collecting the draft pick is not a bad one imo. I would prefer to hold on to a couple of the core (Freeman, Heyward, Simmons). But if we can't make a team friendly deal, let em play out the string. Don't trade them unless something good comes along.

[clvclv]

Minor settled.

[PawPawMaxwell]

If we trade one of them we're screwed. Unless they bring more major league return in. You just listed our best pitcher, best reliever, and best position player from last year and Heyward who may have been the best position player if he played all season.

I wouldn't trade a single one of them.
I bet you were one of those whining after Prado got traded last year under pretty much same circumstances.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Also Minor, Kimbrel, Heyward and Freeman are all cheap if you look at their expected production versus expected salaries in 2014. So if you move one of them, the return is unlikely to produce a better bang for the buck in 2014. I suppose there is the possibility of a deal that would give you more in the future, while giving up major bang for the buck in 2014. But it would be very hard to put together a deal involving trading away one of those four that would improve the team in 2014.

But you dont know how much any of them asked for in arbitration. We do know (tho pretty much unconfirmed) that Freeman and Heyward arent interested in extensions.

[zitothebrave]

I bet you were one of those whining after Prado got traded last year under pretty much same circumstances.

Nope I loved the trade. But none of those guys are arb 3 and we're not getting Justin Upton

[PawPawMaxwell]

Btw the default strategy of letting these guys eventually go to free agency and collecting the draft pick is not a bad one imo. I would prefer to hold on to a couple of the core (Freeman, Heyward, Simmons). But if we can't make a team friendly deal, let em play out the string. Don't trade them unless something good comes along.

So you really think by getting 3 draft picks is worth the gamble by not trading them for ML roster players?

[nsacpi]

But you dont know how much any of them asked for in arbitration. We do know (tho pretty much unconfirmed) that Freeman and Heyward arent interested in extensions.

The numbers should be out in a week or two. Usually they are released before the arbitration hearings.

[nsacpi]

So you really think by getting 3 draft picks is worth the gamble by not trading them for ML roster players?

Maybe maybe not. It all depends on who we get for them.

But I would make the point that their overall value is the draft pick, plus the value of expected production minus expected salary in the years prior to free agency. In general, the expected production of players in their arb years is higher than their salaries. As a rough rule, a player in his first arb year gets paid a third of the market value of his expected production, a player in his second arb year gets paid half his expected value and a player in his third arb year gets paid two-thirds of expected value.

[nsacpi]

Minor agrees to $3.85M.

[skidlee]

No one is getting traded this offseason. It would have happened already. Next off season I expect both Kimbrel and Heyward to be traded.

[zitothebrave]

No one is getting traded this offseason. It would have happened already. Next off season I expect both Kimbrel and Heyward to be traded.

Would be horrible if that happened.

Johnson will be traded, I'll almost bet on that. Medlen is likely to be traded depending on prospect development.

Honestly assuming we get a boost to payroll that we should. We may keep most of our team in tact. Would be great if we could keep Medlen and Johnson, don't see anyone immediately ready to step in for them. We absolutely have no one who can step in for Jason or Kimbrel.

[tvsportscaster]

Are we really serious about this thread. Unbelievable.

[AUTiger7222]

I would not trade Kimbrel for Price. If it were for Chris Sale I'd do it but not for just 2 years of Price.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Are we really serious about this thread. Unbelievable.

Didnt mean to insult your intelligence(?).

[nsacpi]

But you dont know how much any of them asked for in arbitration. We do know (tho pretty much unconfirmed) that Freeman and Heyward arent interested in extensions.

Some of the numbers coming out: Freeman files at 5.75M, Braves at 4.5M. I predict the Braves win this one.

[AUTiger7222]

Some of the numbers coming out: Freeman files at 5.75M, Braves at 4.5M. I predict the Braves win this one.

Beat me too it. Was about to post the same thing. I don't understand how the Braves being a 'file and trial' team is beneficial to them. What harm is there in trying to work out a deal before a hearing? A hearing does no one any good IMO. It can just create hard feelings.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Some of the numbers coming out: Freeman files at 5.75M, Braves at 4.5M. I predict the Braves win this one.

A win by the Braves could be looked at as a loss. That is a pretty wide gap for a first year guy and we havent even got to Kimbrel yet.

[nsacpi]

Heyward filing 5.5M, Braves at 5.2M. Surprised they couldn't bridge that difference.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Waiting for Kimbrel's number but what is indicated to me by the 3 in question is that they are not interested in extensions.

[nsacpi]

Kimbrel asks for 9M, Braves offer 6.55. I think the Bravos will win that one too.

[AUTiger7222]

I heard one that the previous 3 years combined is what arbitrators look at when making a decision. Freeman's last 3 seasons combined are .287/.361/.468 with 67 homeruns and 279 rbis. Let's remember that most arbitrators aren't into advanced stats so they still look at old school stats like homeruns, rbis, wins and saves when deciding these things. I think the thing that hurts Freeman and Kimbrel to a lessar extent is that he's only a 1st year arb guy and he's never won an award yet but does have that 5th place MVP finish to brag about. It wouldn't surprise me if he won but I think the Braves win that one. I think the Braves win on Heyward and Kimbrel too. Heyward's lack of consistency and missed time will hurt him. Kimbrel gets hurt by being a 1st year arb guy.

[skidlee]

Would be horrible if that happened.

Johnson will be traded, I'll almost bet on that. Medlen is likely to be traded depending on prospect development.

Honestly assuming we get a boost to payroll that we should. We may keep most of our team in tact. Would be great if we could keep Medlen and Johnson, don't see anyone immediately ready to step in for them. We absolutely have no one who can step in for Jason or Kimbrel.


You have no clue who the braves might be able to get in a trade. This team had a 2 year window and we are at the beginning of year 2. The braves are never going to be able to keep Kimbrel and Heyward. A trade next offseason is a MUST IMO. It will be a hell of alot better then letting them walk for a pick in the top 30 of the draft IMO.

[nsacpi]

You have no clue who the braves might be able to get in a trade. This team had a 2 year window and we are at the beginning of year 2. The braves are never going to be able to keep Kimbrel and Heyward. A trade next offseason is a MUST IMO. It will be a hell of alot better then letting them walk for a pick in the top 30 of the draft IMO.

I think the window probably extends to the 2015 season.

[Jay212033]

I think Kimbrel want out.

[Hudson2]

I agree with skid. No way I let em play out and get a pick. Our first round picks are sketchy a lot of times so i'd rather not roll the dice. It seems like they don't wanna be here long term so next offseason I'd trade Heyward and CK and offer Simmons, JUp, Minor, and Freeman their money.

[drewdat]

Kimbrel asks for 9M, Braves offer 6.55. I think the Bravos will win that one too.

SMH

[skidlee]

I think Kimbrel want out.

Why do you say this? Because he asked for 9 million? Why wouldn't he ask for that? He is the best closer in baseball.

My guess everyone one of them would sign an ext. if the braves offered them above market value.

They are being baseball players that is all. Problem is we don't have owners that want baseball players.

[Gary82]

SMH

Soriano makes 14 million a year.

[drewdat]

Soriano makes 14 million a year.

Free agency tho

[Gary82]

Best closer in baseball making 5 mil less than Soriano? Pretty good deal.

[drewdat]

Best closer in baseball making 5 mil less than Soriano? Pretty good deal.

Relative to Soriano or Papelbon sure. Relative to our budget and the gaping holes in our lineup I'm less sure, but I guess it would be ok in abstract. Given that it's the first year of arbitration, it seems pretty high.

[Gary82]

Relative to Soriano or Papelbon sure. Relative to our budget and the gaping holes in our lineup I'm less sure, but I guess it would be ok in abstract. Given that it's the first year of arbitration, it seems pretty high.

It is high, but I could see him winning that case.

[Millwood1Hitter]

We're the new Rays or Twins. Better at developing than anyone else, only forced to move or loss that talent to have their best years in another uniform.

BLAH!

I mean this is the equivalent of trading Glavine and Smoltz in 1993 only to watch them dominant in another uniform and wonder what could have been.

We finally got that dominant closer that we never had in the 90s that cost us at least one if not 2 championships. We finally got an MVP caliber 1B, first since the crime dog, and one if the best all around OFers.

[thethe]

This is where it helps to ahve money. It doesnt pay to go arbitration. Those discussion aren't pretty.

[drewdat]

Do the Braves ever utilize outside consultants in arbitration hearings? I have someone in mind for a particular outfielder's case, and I believe he might have some damning testimony related to matters of the heart.

[clvclv]

Heyward filing 5.5M, Braves at 5.2M. Surprised they couldn't bridge that difference.

There's your "on the block" guy. If they couldn't settle that, Wren & Company must feel pretty confident that they'll win and Heyward may quickly become the next Frenchy. An extreme comparison? Sure. The point is that he's the local kid that expects to get paid for that reason.

I defy the absolute BEST numbers-oriented of you to justify that Heyward deserves Freeman's salary...service-time differences included.

[Dalyn]

Do the Braves ever utilize outside consultants in arbitration hearings? I have someone in mind for a particular outfielder's case, and I believe he might have some damning testimony related to matters of the heart.


I think it would be best if the Braves kept the nature of Heyward and Freeman's relationship out of this.

[drewdat]

I was thinking more of the relationship between Heyward and baseball.

Or, I'm not even sure, lack thereof.

[AUTiger7222]

I agree with skid. No way I let em play out and get a pick. Our first round picks are sketchy a lot of times so i'd rather not roll the dice. It seems like they don't wanna be here long term so next offseason I'd trade Heyward and CK and offer Simmons, JUp, Minor, and Freeman their money.

Braves have done pretty well with high picks in the draft lately.

2007 - Jason Heyward - 1st Round - Nothing needs to be said here.
2007 - Freddie Freeman - 2nd Round - Again nothing needs to be said here.
2008 - Brett DeVall - 1st Round - Injuries crushed his career. Nobody saw that coming.
2008 - Zeke Spruill - 2nd Round - Was a key member of the Justin Upton trade.
2008 - Craig Kimbrel - 3rd Round - Only the best closer in baseball.
2008 - Paul Clemens - 7th Round - Key member of the Michael Bourn trade.
2008 - Brett Olberholtzer - 8th Round - Key member of the Michael Bourn trade.
2009 - Mike Minor - 1st Round - Quality member of the Braves starting rotation.
2009 - David Hale - 3rd Round - Was mighty impressive in his two September starts in 2013. Who knows how his career will go though?
2009 - Aaron Northcraft - 10th Round - Listed among the Braves top 10 prospects going into 2014.
2010 - Matt Lipka - 1st Round - Jury is out on him but early returns aren't positive. Looks like another busted pick.
2010 - Todd Cunningham - 2nd Round - Nothing special. Looks like he could hang around the majors as a 4th outfielder because of good defense and speed.
2010 - Andrelton Simmons - 3rd Round - The best defensive SS in the majors and still has a ton of potential with the bat.
2010 - Joey Terdoslavich - 6th Round - Could be a key member of the Braves bench in 2014. Probably doesn't have a long-term future in Atlanta because of being blocked by other guys and not being a great defender. Could be a good DH for an AL team.
2011 - Sean Gilmartin - 1st Round - Busted pick. But hey it happens every once in a while. The Braves aren't above that.
2011 - Nick Ahmed - 2nd Round - Key member of the Justin Upton trade.
2011 - J.R. Graham - 4th Round - Listed among the Braves top 10 prospects going into 2014.
2011 - Cody Martin - 7th Round - Listed among the Braves top 10 prospects going into 2014.
2011 - Tommy La Stella - 8th Round - Listed among the Braves top 10 prospects going into 2014.
2012 - Lucas Sims - 1st Round - Absolutely flying through the Braves system and has scouts drooling.
2012 - Alex Wood - 2nd Round - Already a key member of the Braves pitching staff going into 2014.
2013 - Jason Hursh - 1st Round - Very early returns on him are great. Could have been drafted as Kimbrel's eventual successor?
2013 - Kyle Wren - 8th Round - Frank took a lot of heat for drafting his son this high but so very early returns are great.

I would say the Braves have done very well with early picks the last few years.

But I discovered some interesting facts that I didn't know. Braves originally drafted Giants 1st baseman Brandon Belt as a LHP in 2007. The Braves originally drafted Craig Kimbrel in 2007 out of HS. The Braves originally drafted Nationals 2nd baseman Anthony Rendon in 2008.


Relative to Soriano or Papelbon sure. Relative to our budget and the gaping holes in our lineup I'm less sure, but I guess it would be ok in abstract. Given that it's the first year of arbitration, it seems pretty high.

Gaping holes in our lineup? The only two holes we have are CF and 2B and neither BJ and Uggla are going anywhere because of their contracts. Where are all these gaping holes you speak of?

[drewdat]

Gaping holes in our lineup? The only two holes we have are CF and 2B and neither BJ and Uggla are going anywhere because of their contracts. Where are all these gaping holes you speak of?

At 2B and CF. Using roughly 10% of our payroll (or more going forward) on a reliever doesn't seem like it will help the situation.

[Gary82]

Gaping holes in our lineup? The only two holes we have are CF and 2B and neither BJ and Uggla are going anywhere because of their contracts. Where are all these gaping holes you speak of?

2 gaping holes out of a lineup that consists of nine hitters is pretty bad, especially when you consider that the pitcher bats in the NL. So make that 3 gaping holes in our starting lineup.

I do think La Stella will take over at 2nd at some point, and I hope and pray that BJ figures something out.

[Hudson2]

AUTiger I would rather trade Heyward next year and get a couple of really good players u know will be good compared to an unknown that may or may not pan out 3 years from then. We have a bad tendency to hold onto players to long as it is.

[cajunrevenge]

I say keep them and win now. I dont care about 5 years from now as I am on the verge of just giving up on the sport until they institute a salary cap. I am tired of watching a sport that is rigged heavily in favor of a few teams.

[AUTiger7222]

AUTiger I would rather trade Heyward next year and get a couple of really good players u know will be good compared to an unknown that may or may not pan out 3 years from then. We have a bad tendency to hold onto players to long as it is.

I wouldn't totally be against trading Heyward next offseason depending on what the return is.

[AUTiger7222]

At 2B and CF. Using roughly 10% of our payroll (or more going forward) on a reliever doesn't seem like it will help the situation.


2 gaping holes out of a lineup that consists of nine hitters is pretty bad, especially when you consider that the pitcher bats in the NL. So make that 3 gaping holes in our starting lineup.

I do think La Stella will take over at 2nd at some point, and I hope and pray that BJ figures something out.

Well there's no way to get rid of BJ. We just have to hope that 2013 was a major fluke and he'll at least get back to his 2012 level with the Rays.

But my point was no team has 8 or 9 all-star hitters. The rest of the Braves lineup can be good enough to make up for what BJ and Uggla don't bring to the table. Also it's impssible to see BJ and Uggla not being better in 2014. And you mentioned La Stella. He's the wild card at 2B.

[zitothebrave]

It is high, but I could see him winning that case.

I highly doubt he will. Highest arb award for a closer is Papelbon at 6.25. I don't think he has much of a case. Service time and age are the most important factors. IIRC Kimbrel is the youngest closer, and not many closers who got paid did so at a young age.

[thewupk]

There's your "on the block" guy. If they couldn't settle that, Wren & Company must feel pretty confident that they'll win and Heyward may quickly become the next Frenchy. An extreme comparison? Sure. The point is that he's the local kid that expects to get paid for that reason.

I defy the absolute BEST numbers-oriented of you to justify that Heyward deserves Freeman's salary...service-time differences included.

Freemans best year in WAR (2013) is basically what Heyward has averaged for 4 years per 162 games. And the service time difference is a pretty big component too.

[Hawk]

I personally believe taking these three to arbitration is the smart thing to do. It's a messy process, much more for the players than the team. If the team has no intention or ability to extend them, this is the circumstance we are looking at for the next several years ... Braves may be trying to set a precedent, because the trio have the potential to earn some big dollars via arby.

[Heyward]

Kimbrel i'd consider moving, he's going to be pricy next year.

Heyward as well, if he still wont sign an extension, what is the point to keeping him?

Freddie, not quite, i'd play that out.

Meds may be dealt with some pitchers coming up through the system.

Dont know about CJ.

[Heyward]

SMH

Whats so crazy about that?

[gtcway]

Kimbrel i'd consider moving, he's going to be pricy next year.

Heyward as well, if he still wont sign an extension, what is the point to keeping him?



If the Braves are obviously out of it a week before the trading deadline this season, I think they should try as hard as possible to trade Kimbrel. (only if they KNOW they won't even try to sign him long term)

With Heyward, who know what's been said behind closed doors, but if he or his agent has made it clear that he won't sign a long term contract with the Braves, they should see what they can get for him, if someone is willing to trade MLB ready talent or a top prospect +.

There's no need to dump either one.

[jsebe10]

Got to consider to unloading Heyward or Freeman relatively soon. Open your eyes folks , they don't want to be here.

[tvsportscaster]

Got to consider to unloading Heyward or Freeman relatively soon. Open your eyes folks , they don't want to be here.

That's a bunch of BS. Just because there is a difference opinion over their worth doesn't mean they don't want to be there. That being said the Braves going to arbitration with Heyward over 300K is also BS.

[thethe]

Its hard to root for a team when their ownership doesn't care much about them.

[PawPawMaxwell]

For those who dont want to move any of the big 3 arb players, is it a consideration that keeping all 3 might make moving JUp or Medlen a necessity a la the Maddux case? Those are the only 2 who would be viable in a salary dump.

Also, remember last week when JS was quoted as saying "Wren is not finished yet".

[keithlaw]

For those who dont want to move any of the big 3 arb players, is it a consideration that keeping all 3 might make moving JUp or Medlen a necessity a la the Maddux case? Those are the only 2 who would be viable in a salary dump.

Also, remember last week when JS was quoted as saying "Wren is not finished yet".

Nope. Even if all 3 win their arb hearings, that would bring the payroll to ~$91 million for 16 players. Assuming the other 9 guys on the roster average $.75 million we'd be just under $98 million.

[jcc03004]

I think your forgetting gallaraga

[AUTiger7222]

You trade Kimbrel because when you're on a strict budget you don't pay for saves. There's a reason everyone said that Jason Hursh was drafted to be Kimbrel's successor.

[zitothebrave]

We can fit Kimbrel under budget, why would we trade him? Odds are we can do it next year as well (assuming we can unload Uggla and probably will be forced to unload Medlen anyway.

[jcc03004]

We can fit Kimbrel under budget, why would we trade him? Odds are we can do it next year as well (assuming we can unload Uggla and probably will be forced to unload Medlen anyway.

I'm sorry as much as i love Kimbrel if i have a choice of keeping him or Medlen, I keep Medlen every day and twice on sunday. For a team with a limited budget Medlen is much more valuable
Plus i think if he comes back and shows hes healthy id give Venters a shot at the closers role.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Gammons on Hot Stove this AM addressed the arb situation with Braves young players in a pretty meaningful way IMO. Should all 3 win it could play havoc with the team by 2016 and possibly beyond.

I dont think losing to Heyward and Freeman would be disadvantageous but should Kimbrel win and plays out the season it could mean that there will be no money to make a meaningful deal at the trade deadline. Just a thought.

[cajunrevenge]

If kimbrel wins then expect 15 million in 2014 and 20 million in 2016.

[Dalyn]

Heyward is gone. Wouldn't be surprised if it happened this year. If BJ wasn't such a ?, I think it would've already.

[bravebonebook]

Pro-athlete priorities: 1. Pay me what I think I deserve, 2. Look good on Sportscenter "earning" that money, 3. Maybe win some games and even a championship IF my "team" can afford any other players.

[jpx7]

If kimbrel wins then expect him traded after this season.

Fixed.

Not that I want that to be the case, but my trepidations say it would be.

[nsacpi]

In terms of ramifications for the future, the outcome of the Kimbrel case is much more important than the Heyward and Freeman cases.

[Enscheff]

If Kimbrel makes $9M this year then you can expect him to make $12M next year, and probably $15M the next. Maybe more.

Considering the league-wide lack of interest in closers this offseason, I would expect Wren to find it very hard to trade Kimbrel and what amounts to a 2 year contract worth $25M-$30M next offseason.

The Braves will be lucky to extract much of any value from losing Kimbrel. He will be too expensive to get much in a trade, and they won't be able to afford him through his arb years to acquire a compensation pick when he leaves as a FA.

He is probably the least valuable pre-arb superstar I can remember.

[Tapate50]

Gammons on Hot Stove this AM addressed the arb situation with Braves young players in a pretty meaningful way IMO. Should all 3 win it could play havoc with the team by 2016 and possibly beyond.

I dont think losing to Heyward and Freeman would be disadvantageous but should Kimbrel win and plays out the season it could mean that there will be no money to make a meaningful deal at the trade deadline. Just a thought.

We usually have money at the deadline and don't spend it so I don't view it as much of a loss if so.

[PawPawMaxwell]

If Kimbrel makes $9M this year then you can expect him to make $12M next year, and probably $15M the next. Maybe more.

Considering the league-wide lack of interest in closers this offseason, I would expect Wren to find it very hard to trade Kimbrel and what amounts to a 2 year contract worth $25M-$30M next offseason.

The Braves will be lucky to extract much of any value from losing Kimbrel. He will be too expensive to get much in a trade, and they won't be able to afford him through his arb years to acquire a compensation pick when he leaves as a FA.

He is probably the least valuable pre-arb superstar I can remember.

So what do you do. If you cant pay him and he is untradeable do you non tender him? DFA in the off season?
Personally I think Kimbrel will lose this year. Just that I think the gap is too wide to set precedence. Which brings the next question. If he can be traded this spring, to which team and what could he bring back at either price?

[Enscheff]

I think it's too late to trade him this offseason. If Kimbrel was going to be traded it needed to happen back when all the legit closers were still on the market, and a bunch of teams still needed closers.

I would try to win now with him, and then deal with the ramifications next offseason.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I think it's too late to trade him this offseason. If Kimbrel was going to be traded it needed to happen back when all the legit closers were still on the market, and a bunch of teams still needed closers.

I would try to win now with him, and then deal with the ramifications next offseason.

Not to nit pick but do you really think he is that much of a difference maker? I know the numbers he has put up and all but in the end he is still a closer and unless he only saves one run games he becomes pretty fungible all in all.

[jsebe10]

I sometimes wonder if anybody involved with Liberty Media are even baseball fans.....

[skillet]

I sometimes wonder if anybody involved with Liberty Media are even baseball fans.....

I can answer that. Uh No.

[bravebonebook]

I sometimes wonder if anybody involved with Liberty Media are even baseball fans.....

Careful! Those guys who always post here defending Liberty's financial stance on the Braves will slap you on the wrist...

[cajunrevenge]

I sometimes wonder if anybody involved with Liberty Media are even baseball fans.....

They are baseball fans.... just not of the braves. Liberty strikes me as a phillies fan.

[Hawk]

Liberty strikes me as a phillies fan.

Because of the Liberty Bell?

Liberty hasn't done anything wrong, yet. I don't understand why people refuse to untwist their panties over ownership. They aren't cutting payroll. We haven't had to trade anybody off a la Millwood for Estrada. Until that time, I'll reserve my judgements instead of harboring unfounded hatreds. JMO.

I know everybody wants an Arthur Blank type owner. I do too.

But we could be the Marlins, or the Rays (an organization excited because it just handed out two of its largest contracts to ... James Loney and Grant Balfour) ...

[AUTiger7222]

If Kimbrel makes $9M this year then you can expect him to make $12M next year, and probably $15M the next. Maybe more.

Considering the league-wide lack of interest in closers this offseason, I would expect Wren to find it very hard to trade Kimbrel and what amounts to a 2 year contract worth $25M-$30M next offseason.

The Braves will be lucky to extract much of any value from losing Kimbrel. He will be too expensive to get much in a trade, and they won't be able to afford him through his arb years to acquire a compensation pick when he leaves as a FA.

He is probably the least valuable pre-arb superstar I can remember.

Kimbrel isn't just your average joe closer. What Kimbrel has done in his first 3 years as a closer has been put up argubly the 3 best seasons a closer has ever had. Yes even better than Mariano Rivera. I got into an argument about this a couple months ago. Right now you're looking at the greatest relief pitcher, not just closer, to ever pitch in the major leagues. Look up the numbers and compare him to the all-time greats. His are better than every single of one them. Mariano Rivera just retired. The Yankees didn't go out and replace him because they're hoping David Robertson will be able to do the job. He may. But the Yankees would probably give the Braves a fortune in a trade to get Kimbrel next off-season and the Braves have to do it. So get ready, because it's going to happen, come 2015 Craig Kimbrel will be wearing pinstripes.

[AUTiger7222]

Because of the Liberty Bell?

Liberty hasn't done anything wrong, yet. I don't understand why people refuse to untwist their panties over ownership. They aren't cutting payroll. We haven't had to trade anybody off a la Millwood for Estrada. Until that time, I'll reserve my judgements instead of harboring unfounded hatreds. JMO.

I know everybody wants an Arthur Blank type owner. I do too.

But we could be the Marlins, or the Rays (an organization excited because it just handed out two of its largest contracts to ... James Loney and Grant Balfour) ...

Being the Rays is nothing to be ashamed of. The Rays have done more in the last 5 years than the Braves have with a quarter of the payroll of the Braves. Think about that next time you choose to bash the Rays for the way they do business.

[Hawk]

Being the Rays is nothing to be ashamed of. The Rays have done more in the last 5 years than the Braves have with a quarter of the payroll of the Braves. Think about that next time you choose to bash the Rays for the way they do business.

Or, how about the next time you choose to make an asinine post A) comprehend the post you are responding to B) get your facts straight.

- I never said anything about being anyone being ashamed of Tampa Bay. Their payroll is bottom of the barrel. Ours isn't.

- Further, in fact, Tampa has not 'done more in the last 5 years than the Braves' -- Atlanta has a combined higher regular season winning percentage, and neither team has made it past the LDS.

[NinersSBChamps]

Or, how about the next time you choose to make an asinine post A) comprehend the post you are responding to B) get your facts straight.

- I never said anything about being anyone being ashamed of Tampa Bay. Their payroll is bottom of the barrel. Ours isn't.

- Further, in fact, Tampa has not 'done more in the last 5 years than the Braves' -- Atlanta has a combined higher regular season winning percentage, and neither team has made it past the LDS.

The Mariners have won a playoff series more recently than the Braves.

[Hawk]

The Mariners have won a playoff series more recently than the Braves.

:Alone:

[NinersSBChamps]

:Alone:

Well both were 2001. Regardless this team has turned into an average franchise at best.

[nsacpi]

It is pretty rare to get much detail on a team's overall budgeting. I thought it was interesting to see this breakdown for the 2013 season for the Rockies provided by their owner:

Category Amount
Revenue $170 million
Team Payroll $84 million
Payroll of corporate staff, travel, pension/health insurance of all employees $25 million
Draft bonuses, international signings $12 million
Stadium operations $12 million
Minor*league player development $10 million
Major*league operations $10 million
Ticket/marketing $7.6 million
Scouting $4.3 million
Debt service to MLB $4 million
Umpires $1.5 million
Spring training $1 million
Community spending $1 million
Total nonteam payroll cost $88.4 million
Total cost plus payroll $172.4 million


The full article can be found here: http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_24630592/rockies-owner-dick-monfort-provides-detailed-look-at-teams-budget-financial-structure

[AUTiger7222]

Or, how about the next time you choose to make an asinine post A) comprehend the post you are responding to B) get your facts straight.

- I never said anything about being anyone being ashamed of Tampa Bay. Their payroll is bottom of the barrel. Ours isn't.

- Further, in fact, Tampa has not 'done more in the last 5 years than the Braves' -- Atlanta has a combined higher regular season winning percentage, and neither team has made it past the LDS.

You mentioned the Marlins and Rays in the same sentence. That's the asinine post here. Also last time I checked the Rays went to the World Series in 2008. The Braves haven't made it past the 1st round of the playoffs since 2001. Put that in your pipe and smoke it son.

[Hawk]

You mentioned the Marlins and Rays in the same sentence. That's the asinine post here. Also last time I checked the Rays went to the World Series in 2008. The Braves haven't made it past the 1st round of the playoffs since 2001. Put that in your pipe and smoke it son.

Maybe you can't count, which I could understand given the juvenile construct of your post(s), but you said "in the past 5 years" ... I'll help you out a little: 2008 was 6 seasons ago.

I don't know if I can help you out with the concept of semantics, that would require a level of pipe smoking that might deter you (or might not).

FWIW in continuing to shake up your world: The Marlins, who you are hating on using the same random measure, actually have won a World Series since 2001. Something that neither Tampa or Atlanta has accomplished.

[stpeteirish]

don't look now, but the Rays have really upped their payroll; its now in the area of 72 million.

Not paying real close attention but aren't most teams upping their payroll? Braves haven't, but once they get done losing arbitration cases that will probably change. Has anyone done a calculation?

[nsacpi]

don't look now, but the Rays have really upped their payroll; its now in the area of 72 million.

Not paying real close attention but aren't most teams upping their payroll? Braves haven't, but once they get done losing arbitration cases that will probably change. Has anyone done a calculation?

Assuming the team wins the three arbitration cases and Floyd earns half his incentives, payroll is at $95M.

My guess is Wren is also holding something back in reserve for mid-season moves, which would leave the budget for player salaries in the 100-105M range for this year. The outcome of the arbitration cases will determine how much mid-season flexibility he has.

[jason27nc]

Well both were 2001. Regardless this team has turned into an average franchise at best.

We are better than average IMO. We are not elite like we once was but we have not fallen all the way to being an average franchise either. Now if we can't sign some of these young players to long terms deals, it will not be long before we are below average. I just believe that any playoff team is better than an average team.

[nsacpi]

We are better than average IMO. We are not elite like we once was but we have not fallen all the way to being an average franchise either. Now if we can't sign some of these young players to long terms deals, it will not be long before we are below average. I just believe that any playoff team is better than an average team.

I like being a fan of a team that contends year in year out. But there are others who might prefer the Miami Marlins model. Win a championship. Blow the team up. Endure some very lean years. Rinse. Repeat. Not sure it is a repeatable model, but to the extent it is there is the view that flags fly forever and so forth.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Anyone that thinks that there is any animosity or tension between Kimbrel or that he doesn't want to be Atlanta should take note, as the best closer, possibly the best pitcher in baseball shows up on the FIRST day of unmandatory Camp Roger.

http://www.ajc.com/gallery/sports/baseball/braves-open-preseason-pitching-camp/gCHH4/?icmp=ajc_internallink_textlink_homepage#4451190

[nsacpi]

Anyone that thinks that there is any animosity or tension between Kimbrel or that he doesn't want to be Atlanta should take note, as the best closer, possibly the best pitcher in baseball shows up on the FIRST day of unmandatory Camp Roger.

http://www.ajc.com/gallery/sports/baseball/braves-open-preseason-pitching-camp/gCHH4/?icmp=ajc_internallink_textlink_homepage#4451190

Obviously trying to impress the big market teams.

[stpeteirish]

Anyone that thinks that there is any animosity or tension between Kimbrel or that he doesn't want to be Atlanta should take note, as the best closer, possibly the best pitcher in baseball shows up on the FIRST day of unmandatory Camp Roger.

http://www.ajc.com/gallery/sports/baseball/braves-open-preseason-pitching-camp/gCHH4/?icmp=ajc_internallink_textlink_homepage#4451190

Beachy also there said his elbow felt "normal".This would be really good if it stays that way.

[thewupk]

Well both were 2001. Regardless this team has turned into an average franchise at best.

If the Braves are average what does that make 90% of the rest of the league? Over the last 5 years the Braves have won 456 games which is the 3rd most in baseball. Yes our payroll is crap compared to other teams and we have played poor in the playoffs but average at best? Get out of here with that ****.

[nsacpi]

Aroldis Chapman settling for $5M should be a data point in the Braves favor when the Kimbrel arbitration case comes up.

[zbhargrove]

Well both were 2001. Regardless this team has turned into an average franchise at best.

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

[NinersSBChamps]

If the Braves are average what does that make 90% of the rest of the league? Over the last 5 years the Braves have won 456 games which is the 3rd most in baseball. Yes our payroll is crap compared to other teams and we have played poor in the playoffs but average at best? Get out of here with that ****.

Keep settling for mediocrity then. It's been thirteen years since they have advanced in the playoffs. Regular season wins are great, but they mean nothing.

[yeezus]

Keep settling for mediocrity then. It's been thirteen years since they have advanced in the playoffs. Regular season wins are great, but they mean nothing.

It just seems you don't really understand the definition of "average."

[AUTiger7222]

Maybe you can't count, which I could understand given the juvenile construct of your post(s), but you said "in the past 5 years" ... I'll help you out a little: 2008 was 6 seasons ago.

I don't know if I can help you out with the concept of semantics, that would require a level of pipe smoking that might deter you (or might not).

FWIW in continuing to shake up your world: The Marlins, who you are hating on using the same random measure, actually have won a World Series since 2001. Something that neither Tampa or Atlanta has accomplished.

So I was off by 1 year? Big whoopied doo! The Marlins are a pathetic franchise and you know it. The Rays on the other hand have managed to build something out of nothing while dealing with playing in a dump where nobody goes to the games. And they've done it while competing against the Red Sox, Yankees and Blue Jays that throw around money like candy.

[thewupk]

Keep settling for mediocrity then. It's been thirteen years since they have advanced in the playoffs. Regular season wins are great, but they mean nothing.

Ok. I will settle for a good team that makes the playoffs or is in the hunt every year.

[NinersSBChamps]

Ok. I will settle for a good team that makes the playoffs or is in the hunt every year.

A team that can't advance past round one isn't in the hunt.