Minimum Wage

[jpx7]

From a Daily Show segment (but transcription c/o The Poopington Huff (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/29/the-daily-show-minimum-wage_n_4688134.html)):


Schiff: "If we eliminated the minimum wage law then individuals would be free to accept jobs at whatever pay they're able to get."

Bee: "Paint me a picture of a person whose work would be worth $2 an hour."

Schiff: "You know somebody who might be? Maybe somebody who is, uh, you know, what's the politically correct word? Uh, you know, uh, for, uh, you know, mentally retarded?"

Bee: [...]

Schiff: "I'm not going to say that we're all created equal... you're worth what you're worth."

I'm assuming this is poetry to the eyes of the "free to work for what you will" crowd, but to me this illustrates exactly why we should be very, very wary of letting the capitalist overlords start paying whatever wage they'd like and then letting us "decide" that we'll work for it.

[AerchAngel]

I don't mind the minimum wage, but I do mind that us middle-class worth will go down because of it because we have to charge people more because we have to pay more in salaries.

Wife probably has to raise her rates in conjunction with the pay hike so she can make the same profits as last year. Right now she hasn't, but she is looking at returns last year and projecting what happens this year.

We are far from rich and living paycheck to paycheck like everyone else. Work was nice to give us a raise to buffer Obamination care. They raised our insurance from 180 to 200 a month for a family and no change in deductibles. The boss said our salaries will still be the same to reflect the change, but the owner is not happy about it.

[sturg33]

From a Daily Show segment (but transcription c/o The Poopington Huff (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/29/the-daily-show-minimum-wage_n_4688134.html)):



I'm assuming this is poetry to the eyes of the "free to work for what you will" crowd, but to me this illustrates exactly why we should be very, very wary of letting the capitalist overlords start paying whatever wage they'd like and then letting us "decide" that we'll work for it.

So just to be clear, do you believe that someone who is really incapable of working at nearly the same level as another person, should be paid the same amount?

[Oklahomahawk]

I don't mind the minimum wage, but I do mind that us middle-class worth will go down because of it because we have to charge people more because we have to pay more in salaries.

Wife probably has to raise her rates in conjunction with the pay hike so she can make the same profits as last year. Right now she hasn't, but she is looking at returns last year and projecting what happens this year.

We are far from rich and living paycheck to paycheck like everyone else. Work was nice to give us a raise to buffer Obamination care. They raised our insurance from 180 to 200 a month for a family and no change in deductibles. The boss said our salaries will still be the same to reflect the change, but the owner is not happy about it.

I had this discussion the other day with some uber-lib friends. I told them I wasn't necessarily against raising the minimum wage, but I thought their enthusiasm about it really fixing a lot of things was horribly misplaced. I think taxing the living sh!t out of people and corporations who send jobs overseas is WAY overdue and that and only that sort of thing will ever really fix our current job problems.

A couple of things just to make the far right crowd angry with me, not that they ever get otherwise really.

First AA, I feel for you and your wife's situation. You guys are the ones the Repubs always bring up when a subject like this comes up but can we agree that they really don't give a tinker's damn about you or your situation? When they talk about "small business" they really talking about somewhere between 500-1000 people, anything lower than that doesn't really register with them.

For those who really believe that complete and utter bullsh!t that doing away with the minimum wage will actually help regular folks because then people and/or companies will actually pay more since they don't have to I say "wake the p**** up" and possibly what the p**** is wrong with you"? Do you really believe everything those arseholes tell you?? Are you really that fooking dense? WTF??????????

For those who think it's OK for someone to pay someone $2/hour because they're retarded, I wish (more than I wish for world peace, to bang Scarlett Johansson, etc.) that they HAD to work for and live on $2/hour for one year as their only means of support. That little bit of pain and suffering might wake your sorry arse up and keep your out of a devil's hell for all eternity and yes I meant every syllable of that.

For pieces of sh!t like Kevin O'Leary who say they LIKE the extreme income equality we now face because it gives the dregs of society "something to look up to and strive for (paraphrased but pretty close)" have you ever read the Bible? Did you read the part about the rich man who was going to tear down his barns to build bigger ones so he wouldn't have to work anymore, etc. and he went to hell, can you imagine how far down this prick is going to be unless he changes his tune a LOT??? That's not me talking, that's a MUCH higher power and just because they whorish TV preachers who perform fellatio on the uber wealthy hoping they'll throw some crumbs their way I say to you, "How Dare You". There's a reckoning coming and as much you get pissed off by me I promise you there will be a LOT of aholes who will wish to God they had listened me this ahole some day.

[Oklahomahawk]

So just to be clear, do you believe that someone who is really incapable of working at nearly the same level as another person, should be paid the same amount?

sturg, dude, you know I like you, right? I'm afraid that in your haste to get away from the frying pan of the old Neo-Con Repubs you have skidded on the Ron Paul express, over to the Rand Paul express and right off into the fire of some very bad people you don't want to be associated with. I know a person hiring another person has the right to determine the "potential worth" of that person to some extent but we're talking WAY the p**** beyond that. We're talking about Social Darwinism on a Biblical scale and despite what you've been told by some folks who quote the Bible from time to time you'd better get and keep your distance from these people or else they make get some of their fire and brimstone residue on you.

[sturg33]

OHawk,

why should a company have to pay someone more than they are worth?

And, if the minimum wage is raised to say, $10 an hour, what is going to stop McDonalds to going to fully automated registers? (Like they have already begun doing)

[sturg33]

sturg, dude, you know I like you, right? I'm afraid that in your haste to get away from the frying pan of the old Neo-Con Repubs you have skidded on the Ron Paul express, over to the Rand Paul express and right off into the fire of some very bad people you don't want to be associated with. I know a person hiring another person has the right to determine the "potential worth" of that person to some extent but we're talking WAY the p**** beyond that. We're talking about Social Darwinism on a Biblical scale and despite what you've been told by some folks who quote the Bible from time to time you'd better get and keep your distance from these people or else they make get some of their fire and brimstone residue on you.

I'll ask you the same question. Do you believe that someone who is really incapable of working at nearly the same level as another person, should be paid the same amount?

[Oklahomahawk]

OHawk,

why should a company have to pay someone more than they are worth?

And, if the minimum wage is raised to say, $10 an hour, what is going to stop McDonalds to going to fully automated registers? (Like they have already begun doing)

Well maybe it'll push some people into doing the right thing. I know you've bought into this whole "the people at the top are the good people" and all the money they make is really just their money and they should be able to treat people the way the want and work them as much as they want in any way that they want and still keep all the profits type.

Beware of Social Darwinism, it may sound like what you think is "right" but it really isn't what you think it is and there WILL be consequences for treating people that way.

[Oklahomahawk]

I'll ask you the same question. Do you believe that someone who is really incapable of working at nearly the same level as another person, should be paid the same amount?

Dude, do you hear yourself? You're using a predetermined set of values and "judgements" as to who is capable of what and basically assigning a "worth" to human beings and rest assured what your buddies are doing is no less than that. Should a person ringing up fries at Mcdonalds be paid the same as a brain surgeon? Of course not, but what you are saying and the direction you are headed is dangerously close to what big businesses of 100 years ago were doing when they fired/laid off men from their jobs and paid the children of those men pennies on the dollar in order to make just a few more millions than they were already making. Don't tell me Ron Paul is in favor of treating people like that!! Rand Paul yes, but not his dad. Ron Paul and I may not agree on everything but I believe he is a decent human being, unlike his son who is a lackey for the uber wealthy aholes in this country who literally believe they are a different breed from the low lifes that they can pay any pittance they want because they need a job at their company, which of course never uses any tax breaks or other government perks themselves while they're blasting those same government perks when poor people use them.

Be very careful of the company you keep my friend.

[The Chosen One]

What's wrong with children working in the factories Hawk?

It'll teach'em a lesson and make them think twice about not focusing on their education. It'll also give them great life skills quick.

I'm all for going back to the days of children dying and working in sweatshops!

FREEDOM I SAY! FREEDOM! PATRIOTS DIED FOR THIS COUNTRY SO EMPLOYERS COULD HIRE AND PAY WHOMEVER AND WHATEVER THEY WANT!

[gilesfan]

Might as well pay everyone the same, $30 an hour. Everyone happy, right? Then I don't have to work 60 hours a week or strive toward anything better. I'll work 40 hours a week bagging groceries for that. No prob at all

[Oklahomahawk]

Might as well pay everyone the same, $30 an hour. Everyone happy, right? Then I don't have to work 60 hours a week or strive toward anything better. I'll work 40 hours a week bagging groceries for that. No prob at all

I never said that though it is the usual far right response, make everything into the extreme so nobody sees what you're really up to, right? Think human beings ought to be treated like human beings?? That much mean you're a socialist, right? Well if people who think people should be treated like human beings and treated with a little human dignity, no matter how much/little they're being paid is a socialist, I guess you know what that means those on the other side are acting like, right???

[gilesfan]

So paying someone 7 bucks an hour isn't treating them like human beings?

[Oklahomahawk]

So paying someone 7 bucks an hour isn't treating them like human beings?

Come on dude, you're way smarter than this, these people and corporations are manipulating the very systems they created, having 90% of the this country's wealth isn't even enough for them, they won't be happy until they have it all, or until they start a sh!tstorm they regret for the rest of their lives, and they have good people like you defending them. Oh and by the way they only pay $7/hour very grudgingly, they and their mouthpiece POS's like Michelle Bachmann think that's too much, it should be more like $2. And if you REALLY want to know my stance on minimum wage and what the real problems are in this country go back up a couple of posts and read the whole thing instead of falling for the "find one phrase I can pick on" mentality. Dude, you are WAY better than that.

[gilesfan]

There is a market for what an employee brings to the table. If you spend 4 years going to college and incur massive loan debts, you are typically going to make more money than someone who does not. There is a. Reward for how much time you but in, how much stress you have to incure, how talented you are, and hob many people can do that job. Does it suck for mei don't have the talent of Lebron James and I win ever be a millionaire? Sure. All I can do is work my ass off, go to college, and then work my ass off some more. For that, I get to make a salary more than the minimum wage.

However, now they raise minimum wage a ridiculous $3 per hour which is going to drive up costs (which means the minimum wage people are going to be affected most by higher food cost). And who loses out in all of this? The middle class. The people that work their ass off to support their family on 40k a year who don't get the benefits of a pay raise, but have to deal with the higher cost of supplies.

[zitothebrave]

There is a market for what an employee brings to the table. If you spend 4 years going to college and incur massive loan debts, you are typically going to make more money than someone who does not. There is a. Reward for how much time you but in, how much stress you have to incure, how talented you are, and hob many people can do that job. Does it suck for mei don't have the talent of Lebron James and I win ever be a millionaire? Sure. All I can do is work my ass off, go to college, and then work my ass off some more. For that, I get to make a salary more than the minimum wage.

However, now they raise minimum wage a ridiculous $3 per hour which is going to drive up costs (which means the minimum wage people are going to be affected most by higher food cost). And who loses out in all of this? The middle class. The people that work their ass off to support their family on 40k a year who don't get the benefits of a pay raise, but have to deal with the higher cost of supplies.

And welcome to the biggest problem with the American job system. People who go to school are presumed to have a certain advanced quality that simply doesn't exist in most fields. Someone going to a 4 year school for a communication degree doesn't have an advanced skill that makes them more customer service ready and get a higher paying job at a call center. Or you can apply that to a number of other things as well. Unless you're going into something that requires an advanced specialized knowledge (Doctor, lawyer, etc.) on the job training is way more valuable than going to school.

[gilesfan]

And welcome to the biggest problem with the American job system. People who go to school are presumed to have a certain advanced quality that simply doesn't exist in most fields. Someone going to a 4 year school for a communication degree doesn't have an advanced skill that makes them more customer service ready and get a higher paying job at a call center. Or you can apply that to a number of other things as well. Unless you're going into something that requires an advanced specialized knowledge (Doctor, lawyer, etc.) on the job training is way more valuable than going to school.

Most degrees are specialized knowledge.


In general, the people of higher intelligence will got college and perform better at their jobs. College degree plus on the job training is better than no college degree.

Of course you have the point of view Ipof so won't that didn't go to college. (Or couldn't)

[Oklahomahawk]

There is a market for what an employee brings to the table. If you spend 4 years going to college and incur massive loan debts, you are typically going to make more money than someone who does not. There is a. Reward for how much time you but in, how much stress you have to incure, how talented you are, and hob many people can do that job. Does it suck for mei don't have the talent of Lebron James and I win ever be a millionaire? Sure. All I can do is work my ass off, go to college, and then work my ass off some more. For that, I get to make a salary more than the minimum wage.

However, now they raise minimum wage a ridiculous $3 per hour which is going to drive up costs (which means the minimum wage people are going to be affected most by higher food cost). And who loses out in all of this? The middle class. The people that work their ass off to support their family on 40k a year who don't get the benefits of a pay raise, but have to deal with the higher cost of supplies.

Well you changed your angle of rebuttal and ignored most of the stuff I said earlier but I do compliment you on this post, you actually put thought and effort into it rather that the last couple that we're very Talk Radio-like "pick a detail from the other guy's argument usually out of context, form an argument with that actually has little or nothing to do with the original statement, but that fits your ideology and slams the other sides statement though it didn't actually speak to that statement at all".

Now if I can just get you to put as much more effort into your next post than you did into this one (compared with your last two) we'll be actually getting places. I see you either didn't go back and read my previous posts saying that raising the minimum wage wasn't the long term answer to the problems going on right now or you ignored it because it didn't go along with your argument.

I know the Repubs have convinced you guys that it's the poor, lazy, stupid, "takers" who are the problem but the wealthy and big businesses have been raping the treasury since the 1980's and right now the top 20% (of which I may actually fit into just barely if you don't take into account that my tax rate is the same as the top 1% and I don't have the fancy lawyers and accountants to hide mine) own 90% of the wealth in this country. Is there any way to say that's healthy?

I know the Repubs also like to preach that it's a free market economy but that's BS and we both know it. Those at the top end make the rules for the other people at the top end and they make the rules for those at the bottom end. Do those at the bottom end make the rules for anybody??? During the financial meltdown while everybody else in the country was hurting their wealth went up again!!! They're screwing us all every single day and they've got you guys feeling sorry for the fact that they, unlike the Sandra Fluke chick, have to buy their own damn protection while they screw us. While they lament having to pay all that income tax for the freeloaders they pretend that the bottom 80% of Americans have to divide 10% of the wealth. Where are those taxes supposed to come from?? That money doesn't exist, except in the offshore accounts of those people you guys live to defend.

Think about it this way, a couple of years ago when that sorry piece of sh!t John Mara told his lapdog Roger Goddell to punish the Cowboys and the Redskins for breaking a rule that didn't exist!! It was nothing more than a wink-wink good old boys agreement. It wasn't even legal, those things all have to be voted on and agreed upon by a majority of owners. There was no such agreement, but remember how just about every person on the old board where we talked about that stuff said it was fine and it really WAS a rule and that Dallas and Washington had it coming because even though it wasn't really a rule in the classic sense they knew better than to do it so they asked for it. Remember that? Remember how you were able to see through the BS and called them on it? Remember how they didn't care because they were only going along with things because that's the way they already thought about those things and no amount of facts could convince them?

Fox News and the far right websites and talk radio have spent millions to make billions and they have Jedi mind tricked a lot of good people into going along with a plan that if they would just take a minute and unwrap the flag from around their eyes, they could see the whole damn thing and how they're being used.

That kind of action is hard though, it makes people question things they don't feel comfortable questioning, it's easier to just go along with those in charge, I mean after all who cares if Washington and Dallas get punished while the prick Gepetto pulling the strings conveniently hurts his competition by enforcing a rule that doesn't exist or if a person trying to support their family lost their job to India and works at Burger King now (instead of going on welfare). I mean why fight it? It's the natural order of things for those trying to earn the American dream, right?

[zitothebrave]

Most degrees are specialized knowledge.


In general, the people of higher intelligence will got college and perform better at their jobs. College degree plus on the job training is better than no college degree.

Of course you have the point of view Ipof so won't that didn't go to college. (Or couldn't)

Your autocorrect went wonky and that last sentence is entirely incoherent. And I got into every college I applied to. Including someones that were very selective.

If you had evena a moderate pulse on the way things run in American college and have run for some time, you'd realize that's not the case. There's a college that will let anyone in, cause they care about money. Sure someoen going to Princeton, Harvard, Yale, etc. gets in cause of higher intelligence, but trust me pretty much anyone can get into a college.

And you should look up the definition of most. Specialized knowledge isn't something you can learn on the job in a year or 2.

[AerchAngel]

People who rack up bills in school obviously did not think about career field and pay. If you are into extreme fields like Anthropology/Art and even Literature there is not a market for you in today's world. If you love that field, you need to understand that it won't make you rich monetarily but for your heart it is worth it. That is the decision you make.

I started at Embry Riddle, wanted to work for the NTSB, but after one semester of looking at dead bodies and what happened to them in a plane crash, I said to myself, any gore is not for me. My love growing up was computers and my degree is in programming and yes I did the Palin route because I went to Europe, first to work for a conglomerate and played professional basketball on the side with their consent.

If they raise minimum wage for people who just flip burgers than all of us programmers and engineers should get the same raise, but we won't.

[zitothebrave]

You would get a raise I'm sure. It's the people between you and the bottom that get shafted, the people who make 25K or so that wouldn't get more money.

I'm fine with the minimum wage at 8 or 7 or whatever. I don't know since I haven't worked a minimum wage job since high school.

[AerchAngel]

You would get a raise I'm sure. It's the people between you and the bottom that get shafted, the people who make 25K or so that wouldn't get more money.

I'm fine with the minimum wage at 8 or 7 or whatever. I don't know since I haven't worked a minimum wage job since high school.

And everyday items will go up in cost as well. The middle class business are going to get killed if they have
more employees, especially those who own restaurants that are under franchises.

[zitothebrave]

And everyday items will go up in cost as well. The middle class business are going to get killed if they have
more employees, especially those who own restaurants that are under franchises.

I'm not a fan of raising the minimum wage simply because the big boys can absorb it, mom and pop are the ones who get shafted.

[AerchAngel]

I'm not a fan of raising the minimum wage simply because the big boys can absorb it, mom and pop are the ones who get shafted.

Yep.

[zitothebrave]

To add though, I'm not a fan of lowering the minimum wage either because yet again, benefits the big boys kills mom and pop. Key is finding the sweet spot. I think around where it's at now is good.

[gilesfan]

Well you changed your angle of rebuttal and ignored most of the stuff I said earlier but I do compliment you on this post, you actually put thought and effort into it rather that the last couple that we're very Talk Radio-like "pick a detail from the other guy's argument usually out of context, form an argument with that actually has little or nothing to do with the original statement, but that fits your ideology and slams the other sides statement though it didn't actually speak to that statement at all".

Now if I can just get you to put as much more effort into your next post than you did into this one (compared with your last two) we'll be actually getting places. I see you either didn't go back and read my previous posts saying that raising the minimum wage wasn't the long term answer to the problems going on right now or you ignored it because it didn't go along with your argument.

I know the Repubs have convinced you guys that it's the poor, lazy, stupid, "takers" who are the problem but the wealthy and big businesses have been raping the treasury since the 1980's and right now the top 20% (of which I may actually fit into just barely if you don't take into account that my tax rate is the same as the top 1% and I don't have the fancy lawyers and accountants to hide mine) own 90% of the wealth in this country. Is there any way to say that's healthy?

I know the Repubs also like to preach that it's a free market economy but that's BS and we both know it. Those at the top end make the rules for the other people at the top end and they make the rules for those at the bottom end. Do those at the bottom end make the rules for anybody??? During the financial meltdown while everybody else in the country was hurting their wealth went up again!!! They're screwing us all every single day and they've got you guys feeling sorry for the fact that they, unlike the Sandra Fluke chick, have to buy their own damn protection while they screw us. While they lament having to pay all that income tax for the freeloaders they pretend that the bottom 80% of Americans have to divide 10% of the wealth. Where are those taxes supposed to come from?? That money doesn't exist, except in the offshore accounts of those people you guys live to defend.

Think about it this way, a couple of years ago when that sorry piece of sh!t John Mara told his lapdog Roger Goddell to punish the Cowboys and the Redskins for breaking a rule that didn't exist!! It was nothing more than a wink-wink good old boys agreement. It wasn't even legal, those things all have to be voted on and agreed upon by a majority of owners. There was no such agreement, but remember how just about every person on the old board where we talked about that stuff said it was fine and it really WAS a rule and that Dallas and Washington had it coming because even though it wasn't really a rule in the classic sense they knew better than to do it so they asked for it. Remember that? Remember how you were able to see through the BS and called them on it? Remember how they didn't care because they were only going along with things because that's the way they already thought about those things and no amount of facts could convince them?

Fox News and the far right websites and talk radio have spent millions to make billions and they have Jedi mind tricked a lot of good people into going along with a plan that if they would just take a minute and unwrap the flag from around their eyes, they could see the whole damn thing and how they're being used.

That kind of action is hard though, it makes people question things they don't feel comfortable questioning, it's easier to just go along with those in charge, I mean after all who cares if Washington and Dallas get punished while the prick Gepetto pulling the strings conveniently hurts his competition by enforcing a rule that doesn't exist or if a person trying to support their family lost their job to India and works at Burger King now (instead of going on welfare). I mean why fight it? It's the natural order of things for those trying to earn the American dream, right?

I will just respond by saying my belief is that the consumption tax is the way to go. I don't believe people should be unfairly targeted bc they are either poor or extremely wealthy; I think everyone should be equal. If Joe blow makes 30k a year, he should pay his 20% (or whatever). If Jim Blow makes $300k, he should pay his 20%. Everyone pay the same percentage. (or the consumption tax where you pay % on what you consume; which is probably better than a flat tax rate). Yes, I know 20% of someone that makes 30k is more to that person than 20% of someone that makes 300k. Its makes no sense to me to penalize the person making more simply because they made more money.

I certainly don't agree with all the ways that people take advantage of tax breaks, etc. Part of the reasons that people do that is bc the USA's tax system is totally effed up as it is.

The people that get hurt by Obama are people like me. I have never received a dime in my life. I paid my way through college working full-time at the same time. I was living on my own at age 18. At age 18, I had a rent that I paid for myself along with going to college and having a full-time job plus a part time job or 2 at times. Bc I worked my ass off I was able to get a good job. I made 20k a year for the first 2 years at my company (with a college degree). Put in my hours and finally within the past 5 years have been able to work my way up to a healthy paying job (which Obama thinks I make too much and should pay more out of pocket). Lets go ahead and raise minimum wage (I will end up paying more for supplies), lets impliment obamacare (my healthcare costs are out of control right now-2 kids), and Obama wants to take away some of the advantages of investing in IRAs.

Whether or not its the right thing to do (taxing the rich more), they will be fine. I dont' agree with the decision to do so, but they will still be fine. People in my situation are the ones that will be hurt. Do you know how much it takes to raise a family of 4? So take some more money out of my pocket and give it to others. Clearly bc I make an above average salary, I can afford to give it to others. I mean, who cares about the student loan debt I racked up to get where I am, or the healthcare costs that have gone to absurd figures. I mean, bc I worked my ass off to obtain an above average salary, I shouldn't be able to reap the benefits of my hard work. That money should go to people that haven't worked their ass off. (both now and in the future when tax advantages for retirement get lessened)

[gilesfan]

I'm not a fan of raising the minimum wage simply because the big boys can absorb it, mom and pop are the ones who get shafted.

The "big boys" will simply raise the cost of doing business. Thus, we will pay more.

[zitothebrave]

The "big boys" will simply raise the cost of doing business. Thus, we will pay more.

Not likely. They can get a stronger choke hold by instead of raising cost, keeping costs down and instead automating more processes or cutting the work force and decreasing efficiency. Raising costs would be silly when they would have a shot of kiling mom and pops who would have no choice but to either fire people and work more hours themselves or raise costs.

[gilesfan]

They will either cut jobs and make things more automated or raise costs.

[sturg33]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/15-an-hour-say-hello-to-your-replacement.jpg

[sturg33]

Well maybe it'll push some people into doing the right thing. I know you've bought into this whole "the people at the top are the good people" and all the money they make is really just their money and they should be able to treat people the way the want and work them as much as they want in any way that they want and still keep all the profits type.

Beware of Social Darwinism, it may sound like what you think is "right" but it really isn't what you think it is and there WILL be consequences for treating people that way.

I just don't understand how you think the government should force a company to pay a certain amount for labor - even if that labor isn't worth it (a mentally retarded person, for example, would probably not be worth $10 an hour when they could get a non-mentally retarded person)

You act like eliminating the minimum wage will allow companies to start paying $1/hr. Who the hell would work for $1 and hour? You act like a decrease in minimum wage is also a decrease in workers self-worth. It's not. If someone offered me a job for $1 an hour, I'd just go to the street corent and make $20 in that same hour. Businesses will still have to meet the demands of the labor market.

[sturg33]

Dude, do you hear yourself? You're using a predetermined set of values and "judgements" as to who is capable of what and basically assigning a "worth" to human beings and rest assured what your buddies are doing is no less than that. Should a person ringing up fries at Mcdonalds be paid the same as a brain surgeon? Of course not, but what you are saying and the direction you are headed is dangerously close to what big businesses of 100 years ago were doing when they fired/laid off men from their jobs and paid the children of those men pennies on the dollar in order to make just a few more millions than they were already making. Don't tell me Ron Paul is in favor of treating people like that!! Rand Paul yes, but not his dad. Ron Paul and I may not agree on everything but I believe he is a decent human being, unlike his son who is a lackey for the uber wealthy aholes in this country who literally believe they are a different breed from the low lifes that they can pay any pittance they want because they need a job at their company, which of course never uses any tax breaks or other government perks themselves while they're blasting those same government perks when poor people use them.

Be very careful of the company you keep my friend.


No. See, I'm not the one assigning a "worth" to a human being. That's what you're doing. You saying a worker is "worth" x/hr. I'm saying that he is worth whatever he and the employer mutually agree to.

[cajunrevenge]

For those of you who are for raising minimum wage I just want to point out that you can always tip a minimum wage worker when they serve you. When you go thru the drive thru at mcdonalds you can throw an extra dollar or two to the guy who takes your order. They wont turn it down. If minimum wage goes to 10 dollars then the prices everything that uses minimum wage is going to go up. If you think companies are just going to eat the difference you are mistaken.

The people that this hurts the most are the people who make 10-20 dollars an hour. I made 7.15(+ tips) working as a delivery driver the last time it was raised to 7.25. My rent went up 50 dollars a month and all I made was 10 cents more an hour. To add insult to injury my employer decided to give yearly raises 2 months before which for me raised me from 7.00 to 7.15. That raise netted me about 5 bucks. Because of the minimum wage raise all pizza delivery places reclassified drivers as waiters and cut their pay to under 5 bucks jacked up the delivery charge and told us we can be fired if we let customers know that the majority of our pay comes from tips.

[AerchAngel]

Not likely. They can get a stronger choke hold by instead of raising cost, keeping costs down and instead automating more processes or cutting the work force and decreasing efficiency. Raising costs would be silly when they would have a shot of kiling mom and pops who would have no choice but to either fire people and work more hours themselves or raise costs.

You almost had a full thanks because you understand if they don't raise costs, they will have to let people go. This has been going on for years now, you know the word, downsizing or sending stuff overseas. If they raise minimum wage, more jobs will be axed and or sent overseas or replaced by AI's.

[Tapate50]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/15-an-hour-say-hello-to-your-replacement.jpg

It will take a minimal amount of time for that cost to be paid off. No Workers Comp, No hourly wage, wow...

[AerchAngel]

As long as they don't turn into Cylons (having personal model #6 would be fine though :))/Geth/Asurans/Terminators or Replicators, we will be fine.

[cajunrevenge]

But when you place the order yourself who do you blame when the order is placed incorrectly. From my experience people who **** up their own order placement still blame the employees at the store.

[Julio3000]

What's wrong with children working in the factories Hawk?

It'll teach'em a lesson and make them think twice about not focusing on their education. It'll also give them great life skills quick.

I'm all for going back to the days of children dying and working in sweatshops!

FREEDOM I SAY! FREEDOM! PATRIOTS DIED FOR THIS COUNTRY SO EMPLOYERS COULD HIRE AND PAY WHOMEVER AND WHATEVER THEY WANT!

While we're on the subject . . . sturg, you never said much in that thread when you suggested that America was "on the right track" vis a vis capitalism until the early 20th century. In fact, you didn't say anything at all, beyond accusing me of changing the subject. Remember this?
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/coal_zps4badaa21.gif

It seemed to be an excellent expression of everything you advocate—workers freely agreeing on the price of their labor without government interference, no regulation, etc. What say you, buddy?

[Julio3000]

No. See, I'm not the one assigning a "worth" to a human being. That's what you're doing. You saying a worker is "worth" x/hr. I'm saying that he is worth whatever he and the employer mutually agree to.

So in other words, exactly as OHawk suggested, you're saying that it's up to the employer. It's a hell of a mutual agreement when one side is holding all the cards.

[sturg33]

So in other words, exactly as OHawk suggested, you're saying that it's up to the employer. It's a hell of a mutual agreement when one side is holding all the cards.

No. A worker is not forced to work for less than he thinks he is worth. I would not work for $1 hr, as I said above.

[sturg33]

While we're on the subject . . . sturg, you never said much in that thread when you suggested that America was "on the right track" vis a vis capitalism until the early 20th century. In fact, you didn't say anything at all, beyond accusing me of changing the subject. Remember this?
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/coal_zps4badaa21.gif

It seemed to be an excellent expression of everything you advocate—workers freely agreeing on the price of their labor without government interference, no regulation, etc. What say you, buddy?

I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest. Obviously I think sweatshops are abhorrent and should be avoided. But I'm also OK with 12-16 year olds working in libraries, schools, dr office, etc for a few bucks. If that makes me a monster, then so be it.

[Oklahomahawk]

I certainly don't agree with all the ways that people take advantage of tax breaks, etc. Part of the reasons that people do that is bc the USA's tax system is totally effed up as it is.

The people that get hurt by Obama are people like me. I have never received a dime in my life. I paid my way through college working full-time at the same time. I was living on my own at age 18. At age 18, I had a rent that I paid for myself along with going to college and having a full-time job plus a part time job or 2 at times. Bc I worked my ass off I was able to get a good job. I made 20k a year for the first 2 years at my company (with a college degree). Put in my hours and finally within the past 5 years have been able to work my way up to a healthy paying job (which Obama thinks I make too much and should pay more out of pocket). Lets go ahead and raise minimum wage (I will end up paying more for supplies), lets impliment obamacare (my healthcare costs are out of control right now-2 kids), and Obama wants to take away some of the advantages of investing in IRAs.



My computer and/or Internet is being beotchy today so I'm going to have to make it quick. I took out part of your post but left the parts that I agree with you on (since our back and forth was getting kinda long), I do feel for people who have worked and now kids are going to make as much as those people are. I also feel the same way about AA's wife and their family business and I said as much last night. In fact I would be fine with small businesses being exempt from this and Obamacare or at least given a lesser dose of it.

If you guys will look back at all my posts in their entirety I don't believe I was one of the big drum beaters for raising the minimum wage, only that I was OK with it in theory. I said mainly that this should not even have to be done, but that the large multinationals have sent so many good paying jobs overseas just to make a few more millions that's what's created this mess, that and all the de-regulations since the 1980's.

Grown men and women at the heads of households should not be working in Fast Food to take care of their family, it was because of the corporate greed that now so many have to, and all of them aren't lazy college dropouts, etc. Once a person has been screw-jobbed by a company then you'll know what I really mean, unfortunately it often takes being the one sport pfooked by these slimeballs to shake us out of our idealistic fog.

[Oklahomahawk]

I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest. Obviously I think sweatshops are abhorrent and should be avoided. But I'm also OK with 12-16 year olds working in libraries, schools, dr office, etc for a few bucks. If that makes me a monster, then so be it.

I actually agree with you on this, in fact as I just told Gilesy the types of jobs you're describing are supposed to be done by kids, young adults. They aren't supposed to be done by adults trying to support families, that is a result of the lack of regulations (at least the right kinds of regulations) and no rules philosophy that has been encouraged by Republicans and conveniently overlooked by Democrats for the last 3 decades. I have to get stuff posted before my computer or Internet kicks me off again, it's in a foul mood tonight.

[Oklahomahawk]

I just don't understand how you think the government should force a company to pay a certain amount for labor - even if that labor isn't worth it (a mentally retarded person, for example, would probably not be worth $10 an hour when they could get a non-mentally retarded person)

Do you want the historical explanation for this, or the moral one, or just the common decency one?? Try to consider this, it isn't JUST the "job creators" who should have rights, I'm not trying to put any exact dollar figure to it, but this whole, if you don't like the way company A is treating and/or paying you just go down the street to Company B. That's just Repub-speak for "just be glad the good people let the rest of you live in the same country with them". It's also cherry picking your facts and your morality just to prove your point right and the other side wrong. you're better than that.

You act like eliminating the minimum wage will allow companies to start paying $1/hr. Who the hell would work for $1 and hour? You act like a decrease in minimum wage is also a decrease in workers self-worth. It's not. If someone offered me a job for $1 an hour, I'd just go to the street corent and make $20 in that same hour. Businesses will still have to meet the demands of the labor market.

Haven't you said as much, or at least close to it? haven't I heard you claim that it was the damn "minimum wage" that kept some companies from paying more? I apologize in advance if I am falsely associating you with something you didn't say, but I know I've read it here from more than one person.

.

[AerchAngel]

If they do this and if it gets down to our level, my wife will not be hiring people (usually students at the university) to help with taxes or bookwork. I will be doing it, UGH!

[Oklahomahawk]

As long as they don't turn into Cylons (having personal model #6 would be fine though :))/Geth/Asurans/Terminators or Replicators, we will be fine.

I don't know that one blonde cylon chick was kinda hot.

[AerchAngel]

.

I don't agree with Sturg on this.

If you eliminate it altogether, the illegals, Indians from India or any 3rd world country immigrants will undercut any American for that job. They are doing it with the standards today, even in high salary positions.

Until we can stop all foreigners from coming in and undercutting us, this is a bad situation all around.

[AerchAngel]

I don't know that one blonde cylon chick was kinda hot.

Exactly.

[Oklahomahawk]

No. See, I'm not the one assigning a "worth" to a human being. That's what you're doing. You saying a worker is "worth" x/hr. I'm saying that he is worth whatever he and the employer mutually agree to.

This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. First of all it isn't me who's assigning a "worth" to a human being, it's you who says their employer should have the right to un-assign that worth to a human being by paying them like it was 1910. If it was really a free market and there were plenty of companies out there and if they were very well aware of what everybody else was paying and well you get the message.

"Lunch Pail Fathers" anyone???

[AerchAngel]

This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. First of all it isn't me who's assigning a "worth" to a human being, it's you who says their employer should have the right to un-assign that worth to a human being by paying them like it was 1910. If it was really a free market and there were plenty of companies out there and if they were very well aware of what everybody else was paying and well you get the message.

"Lunch Pail Fathers" anyone???

<cough> COLLUSION <cough>

End of story and argument about no minimum wage. They even do that today.

[Oklahomahawk]

I don't agree with Sturg on this.

If you eliminate it altogether, the illegals, Indians from India or any 3rd world country immigrants will undercut any American for that job. They are doing it with the standards today, even in high salary positions.

Until we can stop all foreigners from coming in and undercutting us, this is a bad situation all around.

Like I said most of the problem goes back to Ronnie letting big business and big money to run roughshod over the working class of people he claimed to love so much. Now things are so far out of control it's just a big cluster-pfark. I'm not in favor of paying some 16 year old kid $15 for asking if I want fries with that, but there are people trying to work and do the right thing and they work full time and qualify for food stamps. That's not right either.

Repubs, where was your outrage when defense contractors and savings and loans (obscene sexual comment)ed the American people under Reagan and Bush41? If you REALLY to know why we got involved in Kuwait and with the Bush family whipping boy Saddam all you have to do is google Silverado Savings and Loan and start reading the names involved. It won't take long to see a very familiar last name in the group. Where were you when W let Frank, Dodd, and a whole bunch of Wall Street types do the same thing to us from 2000-2008 because they didn't notice cause their buddies were getting rich from wars and more de-regulation?

Democrats, I know you see all this crap going on, you talk about it all the time, you make your damn talking points every other breath, why don't you DO something about it? Is this like the Repubs using the abortion issue to get votes and donations knowing damn well they will NEVER do anything about it and Christians are too blindly loyal to ever make them pay for their lies and duplicity? Dems if you want me to REALLY think you're any better, stand up!! Show me!!!

I know we all get lost in ideology sometimes, myself at the top of the list, but these are Americans who are working their arses off, trying to survive and not be the first generation in over 200 years to tell their kids they can't have the American dream, it got outsourced to India...

[Oklahomahawk]

<cough> COLLUSION <cough>

End of story and argument about no minimum wage. They even do that today.

Do you think companies will start paying more than $7.25/hour if the minimum wage is done away with, ala President Bachmann? Sorry Vol, couldn't resist.

I shouldn't say too much though, I'll bet half the people on this board can't/won't still can't see that the oil and gas game is as rigged as it gets. They still think it's just free market economics at work.

[AerchAngel]

Like I said most of the problem goes back to Ronnie letting big business and big money to run roughshod over the working class of people he claimed to love so much. Now things are so far out of control it's just a big cluster-pfark. I'm not in favor of paying some 16 year old kid $15 for asking if I want fries with that, but there are people trying to work and do the right thing and they work full time and qualify for food stamps. That's not right either.

Repubs, where was your outrage when defense contractors and savings and loans (obscene sexual comment)ed the American people under Reagan and Bush41? If you REALLY to know why we got involved in Kuwait and with the Bush family whipping boy Saddam all you have to do is google Silverado Savings and Loan and start reading the names involved. It won't take long to see a very familiar last name in the group. Where were you when W let Frank, Dodd, and a whole bunch of Wall Street types do the same thing to us from 2000-2008 because they didn't notice cause their buddies were getting rich from wars and more de-regulation?

Democrats, I know you see all this crap going on, you talk about it all the time, you make your damn talking points every other breath, why don't you DO something about it? Is this like the Repubs using the abortion issue to get votes and donations knowing damn well they will NEVER do anything about it and Christians are too blindly loyal to ever make them pay for their lies and duplicity? Dems if you want me to REALLY think you're any better, stand up!! Show me!!!

I know we all get lost in ideology sometimes, myself at the top of the list, but these are Americans who are working their arses off, trying to survive and not be the first generation in over 200 years to tell their kids they can't have the American dream, it got outsourced to India...

I wish I can THANK YOU 1000 times.

PREACH BROTHER, you spoke the truth.

Best post I have seen in a long while. I agree with you 1000 percent.

[AerchAngel]

Do you think companies will start paying more than $7.25/hour if the minimum wage is done away with, ala President Bachmann? Sorry Vol, couldn't resist.

I shouldn't say too much though, I'll bet half the people on this board can't/won't still can't see that the oil and gas game is as rigged as it gets. They still think it's just free market economics at work.


yep idiots.

I agree.

[sturg33]

I don't agree with Sturg on this.

If you eliminate it altogether, the illegals, Indians from India or any 3rd world country immigrants will undercut any American for that job. They are doing it with the standards today, even in high salary positions.

Until we can stop all foreigners from coming in and undercutting us, this is a bad situation all around.

I think you have it backwards… the reason illegals can take our jobs today is because they are willing to work for much less. American's aren't allowed to work for less than $7.25 an hour

[sturg33]

Do you think companies will start paying more than $7.25/hour if the minimum wage is done away with, ala President Bachmann? Sorry Vol, couldn't resist.

I shouldn't say too much though, I'll bet half the people on this board can't/won't still can't see that the oil and gas game is as rigged as it gets. They still think it's just free market economics at work.

I personally don't care. I am in favor of protecting individual liberty and when a bureaucrat FORCES a business to pay an employee a certain amount, I have a problem with it.

You guys want to raise the minimum wage? Fine. Good bye mom and pop stores. Hello expansion of Walmart. Walmart can afford the increase, your local shop can't.

[sturg33]

This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. First of all it isn't me who's assigning a "worth" to a human being, it's you who says their employer should have the right to un-assign that worth to a human being by paying them like it was 1910. If it was really a free market and there were plenty of companies out there and if they were very well aware of what everybody else was paying and well you get the message.

"Lunch Pail Fathers" anyone???

No. I'm not applying worth to anybody. You keep trying to say I am. But I'm saying it's up to the individual to decide his worth. The government applies worth to individuals by enforcing a minimum wage

[sturg33]

I just don't understand how you think the government should force a company to pay a certain amount for labor - even if that labor isn't worth it (a mentally retarded person, for example, would probably not be worth $10 an hour when they could get a non-mentally retarded person)

Do you want the historical explanation for this, or the moral one, or just the common decency one?? Try to consider this, it isn't JUST the "job creators" who should have rights, I'm not trying to put any exact dollar figure to it, but this whole, if you don't like the way company A is treating and/or paying you just go down the street to Company B. That's just Repub-speak for "just be glad the good people let the rest of you live in the same country with them". It's also cherry picking your facts and your morality just to prove your point right and the other side wrong. you're better than that.

You act like eliminating the minimum wage will allow companies to start paying $1/hr. Who the hell would work for $1 and hour? You act like a decrease in minimum wage is also a decrease in workers self-worth. It's not. If someone offered me a job for $1 an hour, I'd just go to the street corent and make $20 in that same hour. Businesses will still have to meet the demands of the labor market.

Haven't you said as much, or at least close to it? haven't I heard you claim that it was the damn "minimum wage" that kept some companies from paying more? I apologize in advance if I am falsely associating you with something you didn't say, but I know I've read it here from more than one person.

Give me the historical, moral, and the command decency explanation, if you don't mind. Tell me why a completely unskilled worker is worth the same amount as a skilled worker.

And yes, I do believe that the minimum wages does decrease wages on certain people. It's very easy for a company to say "you're a cashier. We pay cashiers minimum wage" rather than actually assign value to that person. Of course, it can and should work the other way as well

[AerchAngel]

I think you have it backwards… the reason illegals can take our jobs today is because they are willing to work for much less. American's aren't allowed to work for less than $7.25 an hour

Why would they?

The illegals can cram 20 people in a 1000 square foot house and be happy by pooling their resources by working $2.00 an hour. Do you think Americans would go for that?

[sturg33]

Why would they?

The illegals can cram 20 people in a 1000 square foot house and be happy by pooling their resources by working $2.00 an hour. Do you think Americans would go for that?

No. And when you raise the minimum wage, that will just beg for more illegals, no?

[AerchAngel]

No. And when you raise the minimum wage, that will just beg for more illegals, no?

I don't want it raised. THat is the point.

You raise it, many problems will arise, you eliminate it, Pandora's box will open for illegals and 3rd-worlders who have no problems living in squatters environment, they are use to it, but the difference in America, they can go to soup kitchens and eat.

[Krgrecw]

Raising the minimum wage would have the same effect on lower middle to lower class that Obamacare did. You're screwing the masses to help a few.

To be frank a lot of people don't work not because of the minimum wage, they don't work because they make more off of government assistance. Raising the minimum wage won't fix that problem. Fixing the govt assistance problems would have a better effect on the overall economy not a policy where you overpay for entry level no-skill jobs and small companies can't afford that

[Julio3000]

I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest. Obviously I think sweatshops are abhorrent and should be avoided. But I'm also OK with 12-16 year olds working in libraries, schools, dr office, etc for a few bucks. If that makes me a monster, then so be it.

That's just the thing, though. You're consistently and passionately advocating for the things that made that picture a reality.

I note you say that sweatshops are abhorrent and should be "avoided." I take that to mean that the you believe that those labor practices shouldn't actually be outlawed?

[sturg33]

That's just the thing, though. You're consistently and passionately advocating for the things that made that picture a reality.

I note you say that sweatshops are abhorrent and should be "avoided." I take that to mean that the you believe that those labor practices shouldn't actually be outlawed?

Which practices specifically are you referring to?

[sturg33]

11 Facts About The Minimum Wage That President Obama Forgot To Mention (http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/28/11-facts-about-the-minimum-wage-that-president-obama-forgot-to-mention-during-the-state-of-the-union/#.UuyINRcSA-Q.facebook)

During his annual State of the Union address before Congress, President Barack Obama made a big deal about the need to increase the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour. The move followed months of promises and rhetoric from the White House about how important it was to the economy to increase the minimum wage. Back in August, the White House Twitter account even posted an infographic claiming that 15 million workers would “directly benefit” from a minimum wage increase and that “nobody who works full-time should live in poverty.” And in December, both the White House and the president’s labor secretary publicly expressed support for nationwide strikes by hourly workers demanding higher pay (because nothing says “I deserve a raise” like refusing to show up to work). Unfortunately for the White House, many of its claims about the minimum wage are divorced from reality. Here are 11 facts about the minimum wage that Barack Obama forgot to mention during his State of the Union address.

1) Only 1 Percent Of The U.S. Labor Force Earns The Minimum Wage
Despite the hoopla surrounding the issue, only a tiny percentage of American workers actually earn the federal hourly minimum wage: 1 percent, to be exact. In 2012, the most recent year for which nationwide minimum wage data is available from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), roughly 1.5 million hourly workers were paid the federal minimum wage of $7.25. To put that into perspective, the U.S. labor force consisted of nearly 155 million workers in 2012.


2) Teenagers Comprise The Single Largest Age Group Of Minimum Wage Workers
Teenagers between the ages of 16 and 19 years comprise 31 percent of all minimum wage workers in the U.S. according to the BLS. Workers between 20 and 24 years of age comprise 24 percent of all minimum wage workers, those between 25 and 34 years comprise 15.5 percent, workers between 35 and 44 years comprise less than 10 percent, and those 45 years and up comprise roughly 20 percent of all minimum wage workers in the U.S.

3) Most Minimum Wage Workers Are Under The Age Of 25
According to federal data, over 55 percent of all federal minimum wage workers are under the age of 25. Unsurprisingly, young workers are also the most likely to be unemployed. As of last month, the unemployment rate for 16-to-19-year-olds was 20.2 percent, and the unemployment rate for 20-to-24-year-olds was 11.1 percent. The overall U.S. unemployment rate currently sits at 6.7 percent.

4) A Majority Of Those Who Earn The Minimum Wage Work In Food Preparation Or Sales
In addition to classifying minimum wage workers by age, BLS also categorizes them according to their industry and occupation. Data for 2012 indicate that most minimum wage workers work in “food preparation and serving related occupations” (26.1 percent of all minimum wage workers) or in “sales and related occupations” (25.5 percent of all minimum wage workers), an occupation that often pays commissions and bonuses in addition to fixed hourly rates.

5) Less Than 5 Percent Of People Who Earn The Minimum Wage Work In Construction Or Manufacturing
While there seems to be a persistent belief that a large number of minimum wage workers are salt-of-the-earth construction manufacturing types, that’s just not the case. In fact, less than 5 percent of all minimum wage workers are employed in the construction (0.8 percent) or manufacturing industries (3.3 percent) according to federal wage data. [Correction: exactly 5 percent of those earning the minimum wage work in construction (1 percent) or manufacturing (4 percent). I incorrectly used the "at or below minimum wage" column in the original version. Thanks to @aemathisphd for the correction.]

6) A Majority Of Them Also Worked Less Than 30 Hours Per Week
It is true that it is difficult to make a living when you earn only $7.25 an hour. It’s even harder to make a living when you don’t work full-time. BLS says that in 2012, 51.5 percent of U.S. workers earning the federal minimum wage – roughly 800,000 out of 1.5 million — worked an average of 29 hours or less each week.

7) Less Than One-Third Worked Full-Time
You read that correctly. Only 32 percent of the country’s minimum wage workers work full-time — 501,000 out of more than 1.5 million, to be exact. And of those 501,000 minimum wage workers who regularly put in a full work week, only 39 percent are men. Now, it can be argued that it’s not these workers fault that they’re unable to find full-time hourly work. However, Obama administration laws and regulations haven’t made it easier to find full-time work. Recently enacted laws like Obamacare have made the quest even more difficult by creating enormous incentives for employers to shift workers to part-time roles to avoid the health law’s onerous mandates and regulations.

8) A Full-Time Minimum Wage Worker In 2014 Will Make 24 Percent More Than The Federal Poverty Limit
A White House tweet and accompanying infographic from last August said, “It’s time to raise the minimum wage because nobody who works full-time should love in poverty.” But a little math and a quick look at the 2014 federal poverty guidelines show that a single individual who earns the current federal minimum wage and works full-time will earn $14,500 in a year (50 weeks per year x 40 hours per week x $7.25 per hour). By way of comparison, the federal poverty limit for 2014 for a one-person household is $11,670. Wage income from a two-earner family with two kids where both adults earned the minimum wage would exceed the federal poverty limit by 22 percent: $29,000 in income compared to a four-member household federal poverty limit of $23,850. And that’s before federal benefits like Medicaid and food stamps are included.

9) One-Third Of Minimum Wage Workers Either Dropped Out Of Or Never Attended High School
Educational attainment is clearly a significant factor in determining a worker’s hourly wage. According to BLS, over 36 percent of minimum wage earners — 568,000 out of more than 1.5 million — lack a high school diploma. Only 4 percent of minimum wage workers have a bachelor’s degree or higher. That doesn’t mean a college education is best for everyone, but it does suggest that lacking one can make it more difficult to move up the pay ladder.

10) There Are Nearly Six Times More Minimum Wage Workers Today Than In 2007
In 1980, the number of minimum wage workers in the U.S. reached a peak of 4.7 million workers. At that time, the prevailing federal minimum wage was $3.10 an hour. In 2007, following more than two decades of economic prosperity, the number of Americans earning the minimum wage bottomed out at 267,000 workers. Since then, the number has risen dramatically, exceeding 1.5 million workers as of 2012, the most recent year for which data are available.

11) A Change In The Minimum Wage Often Triggers Union Wage Hikes And Benefit Renegotiations
The famous investment banker J.P. Morgan said something along the lines of, “Every man has two reasons for everything he does: a good reason and the real reason.” Giving minimum wage workers a little extra cash is the White House’s “good” reason for supporting a hike in the minimum wage. But what’s the real reason? Richard Berman, a union analyst, studied numerous union contracts and published his findings on their terms in the Wall Street Journal in 2013:


The labor contracts that we examined used a variety of methods to trigger the [wage] increases. The two most popular formulas were setting baseline union wages as a percentage above the state or federal minimum wage or mandating a flat wage premium above the minimum wage. Other union contracts stipulate that, following a minimum-wage increase, the union and the employer reopen wage talks.

[...]

Minimum-wage hikes are beneficial to unions in other ways. The increases restrict the ability of businesses to hire low-skill workers who might gladly work for lower wages in order to gain experience. Union members thus face less competition from workers who might threaten union jobs.

And there you have it. The “real” reason behind the minimum wage push is to pay back the labor unions who helped re-elect the president in the form of higher wages, increased negotiating leverage, and less competition for jobs. The president’s decision to unilaterally hike the minimum wage for federal contract workers to $10.10 an hour doesn’t really make sense until you view it through that lens (is there a critical mass of federal contractors who make only the minimum wage?). Unfortunately, when it comes to politics, the good reason is rarely, if ever, the real reason.

[57Brave]

This comes from where?

[Julio3000]

Which practices specifically are you referring to?

Criminy, man. You have enough to go on. I'm not going to start cutting and pasting labor and environmental regs.

Let's go at it from the other direction. What restrains an employer—say, for example, the owner of a coal mine—from hiring kids to work in a stuffy room filled with dangerous particulate, surrounded by guys with truncheons?

[gilesfan]

That treating them like crap could leave them with zero employees?

[zitothebrave]

That treating them like crap could leave them with zero employees?

Buahahahahahaha. You actually believe that huh?

[The Chosen One]

11 Facts About The Minimum Wage That President Obama Forgot To Mention (http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/28/11-facts-about-the-minimum-wage-that-president-obama-forgot-to-mention-during-the-state-of-the-union/#.UuyINRcSA-Q.facebook)

During his annual State of the Union address before Congress, President Barack Obama made a big deal about the need to increase the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour. The move followed months of promises and rhetoric from the White House about how important it was to the economy to increase the minimum wage. Back in August, the White House Twitter account even posted an infographic claiming that 15 million workers would “directly benefit” from a minimum wage increase and that “nobody who works full-time should live in poverty.” And in December, both the White House and the president’s labor secretary publicly expressed support for nationwide strikes by hourly workers demanding higher pay (because nothing says “I deserve a raise” like refusing to show up to work). Unfortunately for the White House, many of its claims about the minimum wage are divorced from reality. Here are 11 facts about the minimum wage that Barack Obama forgot to mention during his State of the Union address.

1) Only 1 Percent Of The U.S. Labor Force Earns The Minimum Wage
Despite the hoopla surrounding the issue, only a tiny percentage of American workers actually earn the federal hourly minimum wage: 1 percent, to be exact. In 2012, the most recent year for which nationwide minimum wage data is available from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), roughly 1.5 million hourly workers were paid the federal minimum wage of $7.25. To put that into perspective, the U.S. labor force consisted of nearly 155 million workers in 2012.
.

That is so misleading.

I know people that make not 7.25 but 7.50, 7.60, 7.75, or $8.

That's still just as bad and doesn't count as minimum wage. Person making 7.50 is going to get $10 more on their paycheck assuming they work 40 hours, but since part-timers rarely work 40, that's looking more like 20-25 hours.

[gilesfan]

What percentage of minimum wage workers work 40 hours or more per week?

[zitothebrave]

What percentage of minimum wage workers work 40 hours or more per week?

You know how hard that is? I mean for real. You know how hard it is to find one part time job to give you 30 hours a week? You know how hard it is for have 2 part time jobs at the same time? They'll pass you over for someone with better availability.

[Oklahomahawk]

This comes from where?

I could be wrong of course, but my suspicions would primarily here (http://iaintnolibtard.blogspot.com/?zx=5e5c62205ec672c6) or if that doesn't give a sufficient "big picture" view you could try here. (http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/07/ideologically-convenient-beliefs-about-worker-productivity/)

[gilesfan]

You know how hard that is? I mean for real. You know how hard it is to find one part time job to give you 30 hours a week? You know how hard it is for have 2 part time jobs at the same time? They'll pass you over for someone with better availability.

So minimum wage is for part time workers? high school kids, college students?

[zitothebrave]

So minimum wage is for part time workers? high school kids, college students?

Ideally yes, but unfortunately some people struggle in life for one reason or another and wind up at a minimum wage job as an adult. Or maybe they live somewhere where that's the best job that's available

[Oklahomahawk]

So minimum wage is for part time workers? high school kids, college students?

I know I have been associated with the Marxian section of the board but I would be fine with high school and college kids staying at the old minimum wage except maybe if they were head of a household and/or if it was a legitimate small business involved, but let's be honest the politicians who are bitching the loudest about this couldn't care less about a real small business, like AA's for example. None of those aholes have any idea how real people live. Too much time in that ivory tower, and the oxygen content isn't too good up there. Too much methane.

[Tapate50]

Perhaps the problem with minimum wage workers is that A) they can't pass a drug test B) have a criminal record and C) don't have an acceptible driving records. Many employers around my area that I am friends with cannot find people that meet those simple criteria to put in place for jobs as exterminators, truck drivers, and agriculture work. These are not minimum wage jobs, but simple ones that have benefits, retirement, and would net a nice salary. How would failing to meet those three criteria affect your view on the minimum wage being raise? Shouldn't it fall on people to make themselves employable for more than minimum wage jobs?

I am asking and looking for an answer... I don't have a decision on this issue yet, just contributing feedback from what I hear from Employers (Small businesses).

[thethe]

Perhaps the problem with minimum wage workers is that A) they can't pass a drug test B) have a criminal record and C) don't have an accepitible driving records. Many employers around my area that I am friends with cannot find people that meet those simple criteria to put in place for jobs as exterminators, truck drivers, and agriculture work. These are not minimum wage jobs, but simple ones that have benefits, retirement, and would net a nice salary. How would failing to meet those three criteria affect your view on the minimum wage being raise? Shouldn't it fall on people to make themselves employable for more than minimum wage jobs?

What a crazy concept huh? No, its better that we just force employers to employ these people at rates that don't coincide with their actual skills. What a system.

If you are over the age of 25 and do not have any mental retardation or acute learning disability and you are making minimum wage or close to it then its your fault.

[sturg33]

This comes from where?

I linked where it came from. And the data came from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

[sturg33]

I know I have been associated with the Marxian section of the board but I would be fine with high school and college kids staying at the old minimum wage except maybe if they were head of a household and/or if it was a legitimate small business involved, but let's be honest the politicians who are bitching the loudest about this couldn't care less about a real small business, like AA's for example. None of those aholes have any idea how real people live. Too much time in that ivory tower, and the oxygen content isn't too good up there. Too much methane.

You've made it clear that you want to pay no-skilled workers far more than they are worth. That's fine. They will just be unemployed and a machine will take your order.

[sturg33]

Criminy, man. You have enough to go on. I'm not going to start cutting and pasting labor and environmental regs.

Let's go at it from the other direction. What restrains an employer—say, for example, the owner of a coal mine—from hiring kids to work in a stuffy room filled with dangerous particulate, surrounded by guys with truncheons?

I would hope the parents of those kids would restrain them…?

[zitothebrave]

What a crazy concept huh? No, its better that we just force employers to employ these people at rates that don't coincide with their actual skills. What a system.

If you are over the age of 25 and do not have any mental retardation or acute learning disability and you are making minimum wage or close to it then its your fault.

The problem is that skilled jobs are harder to come by. McDonalds is shutting down real restaurants Walmart is closing real stores, Staples is closing small computer fixing companies, etc. They take these people who can earna healthy living on their own and by using their size leverage their prices so that people shop there instead which closes the places that offer living wages and forces those people who've spent their lives learning something or opening something to switch to a low paying job.

[zitothebrave]

I would hope the parents of those kids would restrain them…?

You do realize if child labor was legal someone would totally turn Detroit into a sweat shop and no one could stop it right? Parents can't find job but the uber cheap and replaceable children would be great.

[sturg33]

You do realize if child labor was legal someone would totally turn Detroit into a sweat shop and no one could stop it right? Parents can't find job but the uber cheap and replaceable children would be great.

Are you against letting a 12 year old work in a library for a few bucks an hour? I strongly support that.

I already said I'm against sweatshops

[zitothebrave]

I'm ok with children working a few hours a week, I did it growing up. BUT I'm not OK with children working more than 10 max. I'm not OK with them doing labor unless they're working on a family farm.

[Tapate50]

Zito, only about 10% of the US workforce works in retail. They aren't the only jobs out there.

[zitothebrave]

Zito, only about 10% of the US workforce works in retail. They aren't the only jobs out there.

Retail is 10%, wholesale is 4% professional and business are 11.4 those are basically the industries covered.

[thethe]

The problem is that skilled jobs are harder to come by. McDonalds is shutting down real restaurants Walmart is closing real stores, Staples is closing small computer fixing companies, etc. They take these people who can earna healthy living on their own and by using their size leverage their prices so that people shop there instead which closes the places that offer living wages and forces those people who've spent their lives learning something or opening something to switch to a low paying job.

My accounting firm hires people ALL the time. People work here for a couple of years and then move on to private companies that pay more with less hours. Banks hire tellers ALL the time. Not a wonderful job but most banks will start you at 10 per hour with benefits.

There are jobs out there and if you are making minimum wage at that age then its your own fault and shouldn't be expecting someone else to bail you out.

[zitothebrave]

I think most people can get out of minimum wage BUT there has to be minimum wage workers or Walmart and McDonalds would go out of business.

[thethe]

I think most people can get out of minimum wage BUT there has to be minimum wage workers or Walmart and McDonalds would go out of business.

I'd be fine with them going out of business. BUt, what would probably happen is that if people stopped applying they would raise their wages which is the right way for things to happen.

[Julio3000]

I would hope the parents of those kids would restrain them…?

Why didn't the parents of the kids in the picture restrain THEM, I wonder.

[zitothebrave]

I'd be fine with them going out of business. BUt, what would probably happen is that if people stopped applying they would raise their wages which is the right way for things to happen.

No they wouldn't. Because then they'd have to raise their prices and they'd be out of a market.

Bottom line is it's time for consumerism in america to stop. If you can't afford something from a place that actually pays people, then don't have it. Anyone who buys a TV from Walmart should be fined for being a moron.

[sturg33]

No they wouldn't. Because then they'd have to raise their prices and they'd be out of a market.

Bottom line is it's time for consumerism in america to stop. If you can't afford something from a place that actually pays people, then don't have it. Anyone who buys a TV from Walmart should be fined for being a moron.

LOL

[Julio3000]

I would hope the parents of those kids would restrain them…?

You're quite an enthusiastic advocate for the conditions that allow sweatshops to prosper. You've expressed admiration for the brand of capitalism practiced in the US until the early 20th century. Why be so coy about embracing the results of those policies and conditions?

If you want to go ahead and embrace them as a lesser evil, please do. But quit wiggling around and evading the question.

[sturg33]

You're quite an enthusiastic advocate for the conditions that allow sweatshops to prosper. You've expressed admiration for the brand of capitalism practiced in the US until the early 20th century. Why be so coy about embracing the results of those policies and conditions?

If you want to go ahead and embrace them as a lesser evil, please do. But quit wiggling around and evading the question.

It's funny that you act like the job market today is the same as it was in the early 1900's.

[sturg33]

Julio, just so I know, do you think that eliminating the minimum wage would result in children dying in sweatshops here in the states?

[zitothebrave]

LOL

Glad you believe that eople who can't afford a TV should buy a ****ty one instead that will break and continue the debt cycle. WEEEEEEE

[gilesfan]

Glad you believe that eople who can't afford a TV should buy a ****ty one instead that will break and continue the debt cycle. WEEEEEEE

There are levels to which anyone purchase anything. Should someone not buy a 1,000 dollar used car to get work bc they can't afford a 50k lexus? I can't afford expensive mustard, does that I mean I'm not allowed to buy the cheap stuff?

You are grasping for straws.

[zitothebrave]

There are levels to which anyone purchase anything. Should someone not buy a 1,000 dollar used car to get work bc they can't afford a 50k lexus? I can't afford expensive mustard, does that I mean I'm not allowed to buy the cheap stuff?

You are grasping for straws.

Good logic bro. The problem with your analysis is that a car is often a necessity. A new TV usually isn't. And you coud buy a used TV from someone for cheap. So yeah bad analogy. Buying ****ty cheap TVs is a problem.

[Tapate50]

Perhaps the problem with minimum wage workers is that A) they can't pass a drug test B) have a criminal record and C) don't have an acceptible driving records. Many employers around my area that I am friends with cannot find people that meet those simple criteria to put in place for jobs as exterminators, truck drivers, and agriculture work. These are not minimum wage jobs, but simple ones that have benefits, retirement, and would net a nice salary. How would failing to meet those three criteria affect your view on the minimum wage being raise? Shouldn't it fall on people to make themselves employable for more than minimum wage jobs?

I am asking and looking for an answer... I don't have a decision on this issue yet, just contributing feedback from what I hear from Employers (Small businesses).


What a crazy concept huh? No, its better that we just force employers to employ these people at rates that don't coincide with their actual skills. What a system.

If you are over the age of 25 and do not have any mental retardation or acute learning disability and you are making minimum wage or close to it then its your fault.

Didn't we have an "absence of a willing labor force" discussion on here just a while back?

I also feel like no one has addressed the issue I brought this thread back with... maybe it doesn't need addressing, but that is the way employers feel (small businesses in the service industry) at the moment in our little micro economy.

[jpx7]

Perhaps the problem with minimum wage workers is that A) they can't pass a drug test B) have a criminal record and C) don't have an acceptible driving records. Shouldn't it fall on people to make themselves employable for more than minimum wage jobs?

Well, (A) and (C) might support your point, but in terms of (B): if employers don't generally become a lot more lax with respect to hiring people with criminal records, society is just going to keep turning them back towards crime.

[jpx7]

I can't afford expensive mustard, does that I mean I'm not allowed to buy the cheap stuff?

Make your own: it's cheaper and tastier than that neon-yellow garbage.

[zitothebrave]

Make your own: it's cheaper and tastier than than neon-yellow garbage.

I made a maple porter brown mustard and it's awesome.

[Tapate50]

Perhaps the problem with minimum wage workers is that A) they can't pass a drug test B) have a criminal record and C) don't have an acceptible driving records. Many employers around my area that I am friends with cannot find people that meet those simple criteria to put in place for jobs as exterminators, truck drivers, and agriculture work. These are not minimum wage jobs, but simple ones that have benefits, retirement, and would net a nice salary. How would failing to meet those three criteria affect your view on the minimum wage being raise? Shouldn't it fall on people to make themselves employable for more than minimum wage jobs?

I am asking and looking for an answer... I don't have a decision on this issue yet, just contributing feedback from what I hear from Employers (Small businesses).


Well, (A) and (C) might support your point, but in terms of (B): if employers don't generally become a lot more lax with respect to hiring people with criminal records, society is just going to keep turning them back towards crime.

You don't think there would be a liability issue with sending someone to service a home for something with a criminal record? Because you can't really do that.

It is very dangerous to do so as employees are an extension of you. The wrong hire could literally put you out of business or come durn close.

Keep in mind I'm referring to small businesses.

[Julio3000]

Julio, just so I know, do you think that eliminating the minimum wage would result in children dying in sweatshops here in the states?

Sturg, just so I know, is that what I asked you?

[jpx7]

You don't think there would be a liability issue with sending someone to service a home for something with a criminal record? Because you can't really do that.

It is very dangerous to do so as employees are an extension of you. The wrong hire could literally put you out of business or come durn close.

Keep in mind I'm referring to small businesses.

It certainly depends on the case—which is why I said "generally"—but I don't think a criminal record should automatically disqualify a person for a job position, especially if their individual incident/jail-time occurred some years in the past, and/or if they have, say, a decent record working a less-scrutinized job with no complaints from their manager/employer.

Also, on the topic of case-by-case: if the position is "truck driver," and the individual's responsibilities include literally driving a truck from point-a to point-b, it seems as far a liability is concerned "driving record" is a lot more salient than "criminal record," while in the case "exterminators" the "criminal record" would be a lot more salient than "driving record," as far as the sorts of liabilities you mention are concerned.

[Tapate50]

It certainly depends on the case—which is why I said "generally"—but I don't think a criminal record should automatically disqualify a person for a job position, especially if their individual incident/jail-time occurred some years in the past, and/or if they have, say, a decent record working a less-scrutinized job with no complaints from their manager/employer.

Also, on the topic of case-by-case: if the position is "truck driver," and the individual's responsibilities include literally driving a truck from point-a to point-b, it seems as far a liability is concerned "driving record" is a lot more salient than "criminal record," while in the case "exterminators" the "criminal record" would be a lot more salient than "driving record," as far as the sorts of liabilities you mention are concerned.

Well.....of course.

[Tapate50]

How much of the gen pop at minimum wage don't meet those qualifications you think?

[thethe]

If I owned my own business I would not hire anyone with a criminal record. Why risk my livelihood to someone who has at one point shown they are capable of doing things not accepted by society. This is of course excluding foolish drug laws with weed.

[jpx7]

If I owned my own business I would not hire anyone with a criminal record. Why risk my livelihood to someone who has at one point shown they are capable of doing things not accepted by society.

Then don't blame convicted criminals when they return to crime.

The lack of viable employment opportunities for people trying to escape the carceral cycle is a big reason for the recidivism we see.

[jpx7]

How much of the gen pop at minimum wage don't meet those qualifications you think?

I am unfortunately not qualified to speculate on that figure—but I'd say probably somewhere between more than I think and less than you think.

[sturg33]

Sturg, just so I know, is that what I asked you?

You know, I appreciate that response. Since so often I ask very pointed questions and never get an answer, I'm going to play that game too - although, I'm not sure which question I didn't respond to.

[AerchAngel]

Then don't blame convicted criminals when they return to crime.

The lack of viable employment opportunities for people trying to escape the carceral cycle is a big reason for the recidivism we see.


They either sit at home, smoke weed, drugs and what not because they cannot get a job on our dime/or go back to prison.

So what is your suggestion. They have a right to have a good job and don't say they must work at minimum wage for the rest of their life.

A 20 year old cashed worthless checks from a Nigeria Scam Artist and gets 5 years and have a felony record. Should he be punished for life because of something he did at 20 and was too naive to get suckered?

[Tapate50]

I am unfortunately not qualified to speculate on that figure—but I'd say probably somewhere between more than I think and less than you think.

Lol.

[thethe]

Then don't blame convicted criminals when they return to crime.

The lack of viable employment opportunities for people trying to escape the carceral cycle is a big reason for the recidivism we see.

My viewpoint is coming from a small business owner who doesn't have adequate reserves/insurance/goodwill to survive from an incident. This is not inclusive of big business.

But, as a small business owner its not a risk worth taking.

[zitothebrave]

So I wanted to bring a debate to this topic again, because we hear it from the dem debate. Especially the Sanders camp.

What's your take on minimum wage? I know some here (sturg being the most common voice) are against any minimum wage. Some are for a much higher minimum wage.

I have one I think kind of meats in the middle. So the idea comes from an experience based minimum wage.

Start with a basic minimum wage. Say 8 bucks an hour. For every year you work your personal minimum wage goes up. There would have to be a yearly hour minimum set (say 800 hours which is about 15 hours per week) but as long as you hit that, your personal minimum wage goes up. So say you start work at 16 and you hit that every year until you're 22 and out of college. That means leaving college you'd have a minimum of 8 years boost over minimum wage. So say we increase your wage 20 cents per year you work, then your value is at a minimum of 9.60 an hour. Whne you're 50 and you've worked for 34 years, you'd be guaranteed to make at least 14.8 per hour. I say at least because the base could increase.

So what's the strengths and weaknesses to this system? Strength is that it values people with experience. Meaning you can't hire someone with 20 years of experience at a bargain because they happened to have just lost their job. TH edownside is it could eliminate the senior part time market for people like my dad who're retired but want to make just a little extra money with a part time job. Which is why I think waving it when you're over a certain age should be an option.

[DirkPiggler]

So I wanted to bring a debate to this topic again, because we hear it from the dem debate. Especially the Sanders camp.

What's your take on minimum wage? I know some here (sturg being the most common voice) are against any minimum wage. Some are for a much higher minimum wage.

I have one I think kind of meats in the middle. So the idea comes from an experience based minimum wage.

Start with a basic minimum wage. Say 8 bucks an hour. For every year you work your personal minimum wage goes up. There would have to be a yearly hour minimum set (say 800 hours which is about 15 hours per week) but as long as you hit that, your personal minimum wage goes up. So say you start work at 16 and you hit that every year until you're 22 and out of college. That means leaving college you'd have a minimum of 8 years boost over minimum wage. So say we increase your wage 20 cents per year you work, then your value is at a minimum of 9.60 an hour. Whne you're 50 and you've worked for 34 years, you'd be guaranteed to make at least 14.8 per hour. I say at least because the base could increase.

So what's the strengths and weaknesses to this system? Strength is that it values people with experience. Meaning you can't hire someone with 20 years of experience at a bargain because they happened to have just lost their job. TH edownside is it could eliminate the senior part time market for people like my dad who're retired but want to make just a little extra money with a part time job. Which is why I think waving it when you're over a certain age should be an option.

Your idea is better than the blanket idea of raising the wage arbitrarily for sure.

I would tweak it by requiring full-time work to get the credit for a year's experience. You could either require a certain minimum number of full-time weeks, or just set an hours limit that averaged 32 or more with some leeway for time off - voluntarily or otherwise. If someone is only working part-time then chances are they either aren't using that job as a primary means for supporting themselves or their families, or they aren't working as much as they should be. And your plan doesn't account for the fact that a lot of people don't do anything to add value to their labor in spite of working a long time. The extreme case would be someone who works just enough to get the pay raise for next year, but does so working for multiple employers and never improving his or her skill level.

The simplest and best solution is to set today's wage to a cost of living index, and increase it annually accordingly. Small business people like me who rely on low-wage workers could plan for a small increase every year. When you talk about increasing the wage by 40 to 100 percent in one year, that's the kind of thing that can grind small business in this country to a halt. If you're wanting to kill small business and give the Walmarts and other large corporations even more power and market share, a drastic minimum wage increase is the way to do it.

Another good idea would be to divide the country into zones based on cost of living, and have a different minimum wage for each zone. Here in Arkansas, as well as most of the rural south and midwest, you can get by on a near minimum wage if you're working full time and not wasting your money. It's not a life I'd choose, but it's possible. I don't see how anyone living in New York, California, or really any major city can afford to even subsist on less than $15 per hour.

[zitothebrave]

Well I have concerns with the hourly part. Because to me it's not a problem. I've worked fulltime for years. BUt know many of this country have seasonal work and seasonal unemployment. That would throw a wrench into that.

nd there are flaws to the system. There's flaws to every system. I've honestly never worked for minimum wage. Even my first job I got a quarter over minimum wage and healthy raises because they didn't want to lose me. Since then I've regularly made over 10 an hour if not way more than that. Only one job I've worked did I make less than that and I did that for experience and it was up here where the job market sucks.

[DirkPiggler]

Well I have concerns with the hourly part. Because to me it's not a problem. I've worked fulltime for years. BUt know many of this country have seasonal work and seasonal unemployment. That would throw a wrench into that.

nd there are flaws to the system. There's flaws to every system. I've honestly never worked for minimum wage. Even my first job I got a quarter over minimum wage and healthy raises because they didn't want to lose me. Since then I've regularly made over 10 an hour if not way more than that. Only one job I've worked did I make less than that and I did that for experience and it was up here where the job market sucks.

Maybe require a certain number of full-time weeks worked in a year to get the credit. I agree that seasonal workers would skew the total hours requirement.

The people who are career part-time workers because they don't want to work full time are the ones I would want to prevent from getting the higher wage. If the lack of money isn't important enough in your life that it will cause you to work at least close to full time hours, then it isn't a big enough deal to require your employer to have to pay you more for the hours you do work.

[zitothebrave]

That's a fair concern. It's one of many issues with any system.

[57Brave]

In New York City, for instance, the minimum wage for workers in fast food and state government will rise to $10.50 on New Year’s Eve, and to $15 by the end of 2018. In the rest of New York, the minimum for those workers will reach $15 an hour in mid-2021. In Los Angeles County, including the city of Los Angeles, the minimum wage for most workers will rise to $10.50 by mid-2016 and to $15 by mid-2020. Seattle and San Francisco are also phasing in citywide minimums of $15 an hour, while five other cities — Buffalo and Rochester in New York; Greensboro, N.C.; Missoula, Mont.; and Pittsburgh — are gradually raising their minimums to $15 for city

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/27/opinion/sunday/new-minimum-wages-in-the-new-year.html?ref=opinion&_r=1

[sturg33]

Harvard Business School's recent study shows the impact of minimum wage laws in the Bay area

LINK (http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/MW_Exit_7a89f82f-b2fa-42f2-9a0e-f8a61e95b679.pdf)

"We find suggestive evidence that an increase in the minimum wage leads to an overall increase in the rate of exit," the researchers conclude.

"The evidence suggests that higher minimum wages increase overall exit rates for restaurants. However, lower quality restaurants, which are already closer to the margin of exit, are disproportionately impacted by increases to the minimum wage," says the study. "Our point estimates suggest that a one dollar increase in the minimum wage leads to a 14 percent increase in the likelihood of exit for a 3.5-star restaurant (which is the median rating), but has no discernible impact for a 5-star restaurant (on a 1 to 5 star scale)."

"Currently, rising labor costs are causing margins in the sector to plummet. Those with the ability to automate like McDonalds are doing so… and those who don’t are closing their doors. In September 2016, one-quarter of restaurant closures in the California Bay Area cited rising labor costs as one of the reasons for closing," McBride wrote in Forbes.

"While wage increases put more money in the pocket of some, others are bearing the costs by having their hours reduced and being made part-time," he added.

As noted by Red Alert Politics, the Bay Area is headed for a $15 minimum wage in July of 2018, though they've already seen over 60 restaurants close since September.

[sturg33]

From Bernie Sanders...

"Millions of Americans are working for totally inadequate wages. We must ensure that no full-time worker lives in poverty," Sanders' website reads. "The current federal minimum wage is starvation pay and must become a living wage. We must increase it to $15 an hour over the next several years."

Bernie tweeted about some open intern positions:

Sanders' office describes its interns as an "integral" part of the office.

Interns are an integral part of our Senate operation and contribute greatly to the senator's work on behalf of Vermont and the nation. Senate interns have the unique privilege of gaining an insider's perspective on the legislative and representative process. Our Washington and Burlington offices offer paid full- and part-time internships tailored for recent graduates and current students at the undergraduate or graduate level.

In a debate with Hilary Clinton, Sanders said: "You have no disposable income when you are making 10, 12 bucks an hour."

Bernie plans to pay his interns $12/hr this summer

[cajunrevenge]

I make 10.50 an hour. Doing just fine. Can even afford a drug habit.

[bravesnumberone]

In theory I'm fine with an increase in the minimum wage, if only to keep up with inflation. I haven't seen a good answer though for how you help those people like me who make more than minimum but will get killed with higher prices on everything (on top of the absurd health premiums I pay that are higher than a typical mortgage) or how you help the real true small businesses and mom and pop stores that will get hurt. I also don't understand how the people who claim to have the backs of those "small businesses" (most Republicans) continue to defend the big boys who have no problem screwing over those businesses and the middle class to help themselves. Raising the minimum wage is not a long-term fix for the economic woes of most Americans.

[sturg33]

In theory I'm fine with an increase in the minimum wage, if only to keep up with inflation. I haven't seen a good answer though for how you help those people like me who make more than minimum but will get killed with higher prices on everything (on top of the absurd health premiums I pay that are higher than a typical mortgage) or how you help the real true small businesses and mom and pop stores that will get hurt. I also don't understand how the people who claim to have the backs of those "small businesses" (most Republicans) continue to defend the big boys who have no problem screwing over those businesses and the middle class to help themselves. Raising the minimum wage is not a long-term fix for the economic woes of most Americans.

Eliminating minimum wage laws helps small businesses.

Big businesses can afford them, or afford to automate to not need the people anymore

[sturg33]

Link: From fivethirtyeight (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/seattles-minimum-wage-hike-may-have-gone-too-far/?ex_cid=538twitter)

As cities across the country pushed their minimum wages to untested heights in recent years, some economists began to ask: How high is too high?

Seattle, with its highest-in-the-country minimum wage,1 may have hit that limit.

In January 2016, Seattle’s minimum wage jumped from $11 an hour to $13 for large employers, the second big increase in less than a year. New research released Monday by a team of economists at the University of Washington suggests the wage hike may have come at a significant cost: The increase led to steep declines in employment for low-wage workers, and a drop in hours for those who kept their jobs. Crucially, the negative impact of lost jobs and hours more than offset the benefits of higher wages — on average, low-wage workers earned $125 per month less because of the higher wage, a small but significant decline.

[thethe]

Link: From fivethirtyeight (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/seattles-minimum-wage-hike-may-have-gone-too-far/?ex_cid=538twitter)

As cities across the country pushed their minimum wages to untested heights in recent years, some economists began to ask: How high is too high?

Seattle, with its highest-in-the-country minimum wage,1 may have hit that limit.

In January 2016, Seattle’s minimum wage jumped from $11 an hour to $13 for large employers, the second big increase in less than a year. New research released Monday by a team of economists at the University of Washington suggests the wage hike may have come at a significant cost: The increase led to steep declines in employment for low-wage workers, and a drop in hours for those who kept their jobs. Crucially, the negative impact of lost jobs and hours more than offset the benefits of higher wages — on average, low-wage workers earned $125 per month less because of the higher wage, a small but significant decline.

You can't makeup how naive some are on simple economics.

[Krgrecw]

You can't makeup how naive some are on simple economics.

well half of them follow a guy who says 'we should be more like Venezuela'.

[sturg33]

Crickets

[acesfull86]

Crickets

"If those lost jobs weren't paying a living wage then it's a good thing they were lost because those employers were exploiting those workers."

[sturg33]

"If those lost jobs weren't paying a living wage then it's a good thing they were lost because those employers were exploiting those workers."

Where did you see that quote?

Doesn't surprise me that someone actually said, actually

[acesfull86]

Where did you see that quote?

Doesn't surprise me that someone actually said, actually

Just me being snarky

[sturg33]

Just me being snarky

Ahh... well I appreciate you filling the void being left by 57, runnin, goldy, and sav at the moment

[cajunrevenge]

I have been working for almost 20 years and the only time I made minimum wage was at 16 as a bagger at a grocery store. I worked with a lot of people who make minimum wage or near minimum wage and a lot of them dont deserve better than that. I could go on for a long time with specific examples of people I remember. One girl was on welfare and was required to work 20 hours a week to keep getting payments. She outright refused to work more than the minimum 20 she was required. Then she talked all the time about buying her new iPhone and all this other useless **** like handbags. Its always nice seeing a welfare queen with a brand new iPhone when I was working full time using the cheapest flip phone available. There was umpteen million employees who couldnt or wouldnt come to work consistently. Many that came to work with the intention of trying to avoid as much work as possible. I started at Wal Mart 6 months ago for a remodeling project and I could clearly see most of the other people I was hired with are dumbasses. Most actively tried to avoid work as much as possible. 40 hours hit and they were out the door while there was opportunity for up to 20 hours of overtime a week. These same people who avoided as much work as possible now say how lucky I am because I am being promoted. They have no concept of working to get ahead. This is what people mean when they say being poor is a mindset.


And FYI Wal Mart starting pay is 10.50. I hear McDonalds even hires for 9$ an hour. If someone makes minimum wage right now they are either a teenager or lazy/stupid. And for the record I could gotten a higher paying job but I wanted something not emotionally/physically draining and at night so I could go to school during the day.

[sturg33]

I find it odd that we have yet to hear from our minimum wag enthusiasts after this new data is out

[57Brave]

This trend was reported 2 years ago

[sturg33]

Curious if you still support forced min wage increases when data shows people make less money?

[57Brave]

I support a wage floor- yes
and believe I sided here with HRC during the primary that $12 was more sustainable than $15

please stop using the term forced. It is mis leading and over the top

[thethe]

What is it if it's not forced. You are not giving an option to employers to pay under a certain threshold.

[57Brave]

Isn't it a shame that decency has to be legislated ?

If a person can't pay a living wage (regulated living wage) he / she has no business being in business.
Forced or unforced

Shall we talk about personal responsibility and the origins of the minimum wage?

[sturg33]

What is it if it's not forced. You are not giving an option to employers to pay under a certain threshold.

Of course you are. You're giving them the option to not hire people and/or automate.

Now you wait, once they force through min wage increases and employment suffers welface increases, they'll probably try to force regulations on businesses to NOT allow them to automate or to fire people.

[acesfull86]

Isn't it a shame that decency has to be legislated ?

If a person can't pay a living wage (regulated living wage) he / she has no business being in business.
Forced or unforced

Shall we talk about personal responsibility and the origins of the minimum wage?


You really want to go down the "origins of the minimum wage " road? There's a large history (in this country and abroad) of groups pushing for minimum wages to price minorities/disadvantaged groups out of the labor market.

I fundamentally disagree that every potential job should only exist if it can pay a "living wage," whatever that is.

This min wage concept is just a poor anti poverty tool and I'm convinced it only still exists because it is politically expedient and easily consumed by a largely economically ignorant public.

[57Brave]

LOLGOP‏ @LOLGOP

Make a conservative explain why it makes sense that CEO wages have risen almost 1000% since 1978 but the minimum wage has only gone up $4.65

[sturg33]

LOLGOP‏ @LOLGOP

Make a conservative explain why it makes sense that CEO wages have risen almost 1000% since 1978 but the minimum wage has only gone up $4.65

Thanks for the misleading statistic! I love how CEOs increase in %, while min wage is represented in dollars. If we adjust for equality then min wage is 250% of what it was in 1979.

So, if you want to start with honest numbers, I'm happy to take stab.

CEOs have invested in new technology and driven new strategy that has increased profits more than 1,000%

Min wage workers have not increased their value by 2X... though they are getting compensated as such. They are providing the same value they were 40 years ago, but we have risen their pay thanks to new wealth being created by innovators and technology.

And that's not even touching on the concept of quantitative easing and interest rates, which the left will never understand so no purpose in explaining (hint: CEO pay is tied to stock prices; stock prices are tied to easy money)

[Krgrecw]

St. Louis of dropping minimum wage from $10.00 to $7.70 because it's costing people jobs

[sturg33]

St. Louis of dropping minimum wage from $10.00 to $7.70 because it's costing people jobs

Yep. They were scheduled to raise it $11 in January, but have decided to go backwards after the economic development.

Baltimore considering a similar move.

But please lefties, keep telling me how heartless I am for not wanting to see more people get fired

[jpx7]

Yep. They were scheduled to raise it $11 in January, but have decided to go backwards after the economic development.

Baltimore considering a similar move.

But please lefties, keep telling me how heartless I am for not wanting to see more people get fired

I've consistently maintained that legislated minimum-wage increases can't succeed absent other social-supports growth and policy reforms. It's the same issue I have with UBI: I'm in favor of it if it's not meant to be a solitary cure-all, but otherwise I think it's a distraction from more important steps.

[57Brave]

Yep. They were scheduled to raise it $11 in January, but have decided to go backwards after the economic development.

Baltimore considering a similar move.

But please lefties, keep telling me how heartless I am for not wanting to see more people get fired

Your post is misleading
The Republican legislature and Republican Governor have decided to go backwards.
There really was no "they". A rather unilateral decision prompted by special interest pressure

The $10/hr rate was installed in May. By July 1 the law was deemed unworkable.
More to the point is (R) business men threatened to quit funding Missouri (R) pols.

An economic trend established in less than 30 days.
Say the restaurateur has 4 workers making minimum wage.
In an 8 hour day that would be a whopping $16 per worker in wages and perhaps another $4 in overhead.
$80 per day for 4 workers

Let's do math -- if you add $.50 per hamburger that would be over 160 fast food hamburgers. Or perhaps a dinner?
Add $1.50 per plate.
I am sure between the businesss owner sharing the wealth and the slight rise in prices this is very doable.

As far as the business owner losing business, who is he losing it to? Not the diner across the street because they are incurring the same labor rate. Perhaps the grocery store since people are eating at home, where they too would have their share of minimum wage earners and pick up the "lost business"

It is a really large Mom and Pop restaurant that would have 4 minimum wage workers
Just sayin

[57Brave]

The number I saw was McDonalds would have to raise the price of a Big Mac $0.17 to accommodate a $15.00 hr minimum wage.

.................

The City of St Louis passed the Ordinance -- the state politically over rode the local ordinance
A history of the struggle to get the rate raised

https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/mayor/news/minimum-wage-increase-bill-signed.cfm

[57Brave]

The concept of preemption laws has been around for years, but they’ve become increasingly popular in GOP-controlled states as more cities and counties have tried to raise the minimum wage. Business groups have struggled to blunt local wage legislation and referendums, but they’ve had better luck convincing Republican state legislators to block them from the state capitol.

St. Louis is one of the more glaring case studies, since the wage floor will now sink lower due to a state law. But at least 17 states have preemption laws that stand in the way of local minimum wage legislation, according to a recent study by the National League of Cities.
...............

The concept of premption is spread by ALEC. Anyone fromthe old board will remember how ALEC ws instrumental in Gov Rick Scott refusing Federal money earmarked for high speed rail in couth and central Florida

Any guess who is behind ALEC ?

[57Brave]

this comment:


jeremybloom Mister Gloom
Jul 06 · 03:32:04 PM

It’s simple.

If the Federal government preempts the states, that’s a “Tyrranical over-reaching power-grab that imposes job-killing regulations.”

If the States preempt cities, that’s a sensible framework that prevents a “patchwork of regulatory burdens on businesses.”

Got it? :D
..............

Besides, a erson working a job in a metropolitan area can not afford transportation to their minimum wage job at it's current rate.
I probably exagerated there but you get my point.
Going back to last election on the topic of Min Wage I became in favor of localities setting the rate.
Use the example of NY state. The cost of living in the city obviously is much higher than apple country. A dollar in Manhattan is worth less than a dollar upstate.

[sturg33]

Since earlier in this thread, you admitted that lower total income should not mean we shouldn't raise minimum wage, it's very difficult to take any opinion you hold seriously

[jpx7]

You really want to go down the "origins of the minimum wage " road? There's a large history (in this country and abroad) of groups pushing for minimum wages to price minorities/disadvantaged groups out of the labor market.

I fundamentally disagree that every potential job should only exist if it can pay a "living wage," whatever that is.

This min wage concept is just a poor anti poverty tool and I'm convinced it only still exists because it is politically expedient and easily consumed by a largely economically ignorant public.

I actually agree with the first and third paragraphs—plenty of historical support for the former, while I think ease of consumption (not to mention political expediency) is indeed a big reason legislated minimum-wage increases are advanced over superior, longer-lasting anti-poverty and economic justice initiatives.

I obviously disagree with the middle paragraph, since I believe the function of modern social organization (as expressed through governmental institutions) should be to ensure the basic well-being of each and every citizen.

[acesfull86]

The number I saw was McDonalds would have to raise the price of a Big Mac $0.17 to accommodate a $15.00 hr minimum wage.

.................

The City of St Louis passed the Ordinance -- the state politically over rode the local ordinance
A history of the struggle to get the rate raised

https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/mayor/news/minimum-wage-increase-bill-signed.cfm

Did the person who provided you that number tell you how much demand MCD would lose by raising their price 17 cents? One would think if they could do so without consequence, they wouldn't wait for a min wage hike, they would do it now.

[acesfull86]

I actually agree with the first and third paragraphs—plenty of historical support for the former, while I think ease of consumption (not to mention political expediency) is indeed a big reason legislated minimum-wage increases are advanced over superior, longer-lasting anti-poverty and economic justice initiatives.

I obviously disagree with the middle paragraph, since I believe the function of modern social organization (as expressed through governmental institutions) should be to ensure the basic well-being of each and every citizen.

I think there is a place for part-time jobs, or for jobs where the primary benefit to the employee is building skills as much as it is the wage paid (i.e. teenagers taking entry level fast food or retail jobs). I don't think those people are made better off if they lose those opportunities because they were priced out of the market.

As an antipovety tool, I believe the min wage is too scattershot to be effective. At least with something like the EITC, assistance is targeted to those who it is intended for, without disincentivzing employment. (Not necessarily endorsing it, just saying there are better potential options out there). I think the costs to the min wage are generally borne by those who the legislation is supposedly intending to help.

[sturg33]

Did the person who provided you that number tell you how much demand MCD would lose by raising their price 17 cents? One would think if they could do so without consequence, they wouldn't wait for a min wage hike, they would do it now.

Get your logic outta here!

[AerchAngel]

Get your logic outta here!

You so realize you are talking about 57, the board's known idiot troll right? He has no common sense nor logic coursing through his moribund brain. He has his talking points he rehash here over and over and over and over ad nauseum.

You also know he scours any #LOLGOP tweets for anything so he can rush it to the board and honestly think we take that as source of news. Pathetic really. Also he bold things wanting to show his ignorance as well. People here aren't death nor blind. A truly pathetic individual going on 5 years straight.

Democrats should pick a better representative for this board because he is a moron and a one trick pony.

[57Brave]

In the past 10 days gasoline has fluctuated between $ 2.25 and $2.03 and my guess is people didn't stop buying gas.

My.other notion is more gallons of gas are sold per day than Big Macs.
Without blinking an eye the (x) cent increase is absorbed

[thethe]

In the past 10 days gasoline has fluctuated between $ 2.25 and $2.03 and my guess is people didn't stop buying gas.

My.other notion is more gallons of gas are sold per day than Big Macs.
Without blinking an eye the (x) cent increase is absorbed

What's the alternative to gas?

[Oklahomahawk]

What's the alternative to gas?

https://images.samsclubresources.com/is/image/samsclub/0030043013412_A?$img_size_380x380$

[sturg33]

A study conducted by the Employment Policies Institute states that a hike to a $15/hr minimum wage will cost California 400,000 private sector jobs. Workers in two industries in particular are purportedly the most vulnerable.

On January 1, California's minimum wage will increase to $11 per hour, up from the current level of $10.50 per hour for businesses with 26 employees or more. After 2018, the Golden State will increase the minimum wage by $1 every year until 2022, when it will reach $15 per hour.

A new study, conducted by EPI, a fiscally conservative group, analyzed employment trends from 1990 through 2017, and revealed that every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage in California has resulted in a 2 percent decrease in employment. The impact was larger for lower-paid workers, as the decline rate hit 5 percent for each 10 percent increase in the minimum wage.

The job losses represent 4.1 percent of employment in the counties studied in California. The most populated counties in the study will see the largest number of workers losing jobs, as smaller counties will see a bigger percentage of workers losing their jobs.

Through the study, EPI acknowledges that for-profit companies could “respond to higher minimum wages in ways that cause divergent effects,” but stated “what is not in dispute” is that “rising minimum wage has depressed employment opportunities in the most heavily-impacted industries.”

The report goes on to mention two specific industries that will be affected by the wage hike: accommodation and food services, and retail trade, where “slightly more than one-half of the job loss is projected.”

........................

Separate study finds ‘negative & positive effects offset’

The Institute for Research on Labor and Employment (IRLE) at UC Berkeley discovered through a study of their own earlier this year that a higher minimum wage would add around 13,000 jobs to the Golden State's economy by 2023. Without this increase, IRLE estimates employment would only grow 1.4 percent annually.

The IRLE also admits that raising the minimum wage can have negative consequences.

“A higher minimum wage induces some automation, as well as increased worker productivity and slightly higher prices; these are the negative effects,” the group stated.

However, the IRLE added: “A minimum wage increase simultaneously reduces employee turnover, which reduces employers’ costs, and it increases worker purchasing power, which stimulates consumer demand. These are the positive effects. As it turns out, these negative and positive effects on employment largely offset each other.”

..........................

Restless in Seattle? Workers losing hours, study finds
Another study released this year was conducted by a group of economists from the University of Washington, and commissioned by the city of Seattle, to review the effects of the Seattle City Council's vote in June 2014 to gradually increase the minimum wage to $15 per hour by 2021.

The economists in this study found that low-wage workers lost an average of $125 a month due to the wage hike.

Some employers in the city said they were not able to meet the demands of higher wages, as a result of the increase. This study was significant due to the fact that the economists had access to data from the state of Washington on workers' earnings and hours.

----------------------------------

Sturg33 commentary: so we have 3 different studies. 2 show disastrous results, and the other makes the argument that the negatives and positives offset each other.

If offsetting benefits is the best we can hope for... why are we doing this?

[57Brave]

Context Grasshopper. Context
.........................................



The Employment Policies Institute is a fiscally conservative non-profit American think tank that conducts research on employment issues such as minimum wage and health care. It was established in 1991 and has been described as "a nonprofit research group that studies issues of entry-level employment."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Policies_Institute

.................

However, the IRLE added: “A minimum wage increase simultaneously reduces employee turnover, which reduces employers’ costs, and it increases worker purchasing power, which stimulates consumer demand. These are the positive effects. As it turns out, these negative and positive effects on employment largely offset each other.”

......................

Another study ?
If it is the one I suspect you are referencing, pretty sure that study was shown to be an answer looking for a question. A solution in search of a problem

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

And why if it is neutral?
Because there are better lives due to, as you would say peoplewith "more of their money".

[sturg33]

http://www.digitalpoliticsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Screen-Shot-2018-01-06-at-8.13.57-PM.png

Seattle is instituting a massive tax on sugary drink in an effort to get people drinking less soda.

For some reason, they don't think this same logic applies to the labor market