Spirits and Cocktails

[jpx7]

This thread has been a long time coming, as far as I'm concerned, but zitothebrave's comments—to some of which I will respond below as a first foray into this all-important subject—finally spurred me to action.


Unless you're a hipster or a time traveler from the prohibition era, who cares about gin.

I love gin—but I may be one or both of those things.


Gimlet - 4 parts gin 1 part lime (hard to do in ounces since you never want more than a half ounce of lime unless someone requests it heavy)

Not hard for me: I make enough cocktails that I almost always have fresh citrus on-hand. Your gimlet recipe's also missing 0.25 ounces simple-syrup.


Yellow Rose of Texas - 4 parts tequila 1 part yellow chartruese (sp?) 4 parts pinapple juice fill with club sode

You're making it super pear-shaped with that pineapple juice and club soda; you just need: 2 oz tequila (I like Espolón, but Camarena is good enough and super cheap), 0.5 oz yellow chartreuse, 0.75 oz lemon juice, 0.5 oz simple-syrup; shake, strain, dribble a couple drops of rose-water, then slightly stir.


Aviation - Gin, grenadine, lemon and something I'm forgetting

The crème de violette. A standard, proper Aviation shouldn't have grenadine; it should be: 1.75-2.0 oz gin, 0.5 oz lemon juice, scant 0.5 oz maraschino liqueur, shaken, strained into a coupe, then finished with 0.25 oz crème de violette. Of course, that's if you're using Rothman & Winter; I greatly prefer the Tempus Fugit (http://www.tempusfugitspirits.com/liqueurs-cremes) Liqueur de Violettes, so I use about 0.5 oz of the violette and cut the maraschino a bit more.



I'm assuming by New Standard Manhattan you're going with the Rye, bitters, and sweet vermouth. Though I'm not 100% where you're going since there are many different kinds of Manhattans.

My preferred formulation that I mentioned (which is sourced from David Wondrich's Imbibe (http://amzn.com/0399532870)) contains 2 oz rye, 1 oz red vermouth (I love Noilly-Prat, but Cinzano is entirely serviceable), a scant bar-spoon of maraschino liqueur, a dash of absinthe, and two dashes Angostura—stirred, naturally, and served in a chilled glass. But you're right: there are countless Manhattan variations, and if I'm substituting a quinquina like Byrrh or Bonal for vermouth then I'm more likely to use a straight 2:1 or even 1:1 mix, with a lesser dash of Angostura.


Personally if I have to pretend to be trendy and drink a mixed drink

I don't drink cocktails because they're trendy; I drink them because they're tasty.


Scotch is superior to Rye.

False. And damn un-American of you.


And Though if I had my way I'd rather have that scotch neat with maybe a few drops of cold water.

A love a good rye and soda (as in fizzy water), either mixed or side-by-side.


Why would I spend 25 bucks on Jack Daniels or Jim Beam

You shouldn't. That's why you learn your brands.


As a smart fellow, I'm sure you know the basic history of the cocktail lets you know that the rise of many of the drinks you listed coincided with prohibition, where you had a switch from whiskey to gin (faster aging) and the reason they added so many ingredients is because the liquor sucks. Now that we live in a world where we don't have to consume inferior booze, I see no reason why I shouldn't just enjoy my quality scotches and bourbons, and what nots.

Plenty of preeminent and primordial cocktails were developed well before the Eighteen Amendment; in a lot of ways, the latter-half of the nineteenth century in the US was the first great cocktail era. Moreover: gin is an awesome spirit, with a great history, and very good gins were cultivated and consumed outside the US before, during, and after Prohibition.

[zitothebrave]

I never said there were no cocktails before prohibition, or that Gin didn't exist before or after. Just stating the facts that the Gin cocktails rose to fame for that reason.

All the recipes I came up with were from a bar I worked at. We didn't readily have available simple syrup or maraschino liqueur. So grenadine was an easy sub for maraschino and I never learned it another way.

And scotch is better than Rye, it's not comparable. I'm happy to admit when someone has us beat (and with Rye being traditionally linked to Canada, who cares?). And the Scottish make the best whiskey in the world. Not that Rye is horrible butt trash, but Scotch is much more subtle in it's complexities. While a Rye can contain any large number or grains as long as it contains some Rye in Canada and at least 51% in the US your complexity often comes from what grain is chosen so that's your big differentiator. With a single malt scotch, you're dealing with something that's 3 ingredients: barley, water, and yeast. the intricacies have to do with the smoking on the barley, the kilning process and what it does to the barley's flavor, and the water that's used. The difference between Highland and Lowland scotches is the same as the difference between Champagne and sparkling wine.

[jpx7]

Rye, first and foremost, is a northeastern US whiskey; they Canadians just pimped it harder after the US went bourbon crazy—and I definitely like a good bourbon, but I'm a rye man through and through.

As to scotch being superior to rye: I think you're crazy in that regard. I've tried a decent amount of scotch, and know more about scotches than I ever planned to know thanks to friends et cetera, but so far I've really only been able to place them into two categories: "hate" and "tolerate." I don't besmirch or begrudge the scotch drink; it's just not my spirit—though I do think rye is just plain better.

[zitothebrave]

Scotch requires a patient tongue. Drinking a random glass every now and then and you won't really love it. Drink a few tastings every few weeks and you'll slowly pickup the intricacies. Single malt scotch is "harsh" on the palette in the same way that an IPA is a full on assault on your palette, not for everyone. But the Scotch is the king of the whiskeys. The American/Canadian/Japanese/Irish varieties all have strengths, but they all fall short to King Scotch and it's brilliance If you're not a single malt fan, that's fine, you can enjoy your Ryes or Bourbons (I personally prefer generally bourbon's to ryes for their cleanliness but I do enjoy a funky rye every now and then, just not worth it to overstock my liquor shelf like I do with Scotches)

[jpx7]

If I want something smoky and "harsh," I just drink mezcal.

I've done tastings some scotch tastings, and I've tried as much as I care to try, at least for the time being—scotch just isn't worth it to me.

And, honestly: if you're arguing in favor of the virtues of a patient tongue, then you're really honor-bound to give gins another try, because the same can be said about that spirit.

[zitothebrave]

Did you just compare single malt Scotch to Mezcal :Gasp:

Gin is eh. I'm not into juniper berries. Not my thing. I don't massively disdain gin like i do cheap vodka/tequila.

Gimme my single malt scotches is awesome. Nothing out there compares to it.

[jpx7]

Did you just compare single malt Scotch to Mezcal :Gasp:

I'm neither the first nor last to draw the comparison; it's pretty apt, from flavor-profiles right down to the individuated, highly-localized production.


Nothing out there compares to it.

See, I just can't agree: it's your preference, but there's so much more awesome out there in the world of spirits and cocktails that, even if I loved scotch, I could never limit myself.

For instance: the negroni. That's a damn delicious niche scotch or scotch-based cocktails could never fill.

[zitothebrave]

What a shocker, you love another gin drink :YDS:

I don't limit myself to Scotch, but of all the various drinks I"ve had Scotch is the only one worth me owning several versions of.

[jpx7]

What a shocker, you love another gin drink

A negroni isn't a gin drink, it's a Campari and Cinzano drink with some gin stirred into it.

[Hawk]

I love gin because it tastes amazing -- crisp, clean, nice finish. Hendrick's is my go to, will sometimes opt for Tanqueray/Beefeaters when I'm at a bar. Straight G&T. Homemade tonic syrup; experimenting with different bitters (currently Angostura) ... drop of simple syrup, fresh lime juice, chipped ice, San Pellegrino. Boom.

I only enjoy very simple cocktails (with fresh citrus/fruits only). I don't like to mix my spirits. I don't drink Tequila willingly.

Discovered good alcohol when I studied abroad in England (aged 19-20). Drank way too much Scotch because (at the time) I literally could not drink beer. J&B, Laphroaig, Glenfiddich, etc. Usually destroyed with Coke (the lower-case comes later). Then I found Johnny Walker BLACK which I could enjoy straight-on with ice and it revolutionized the way I drank. Came back home, and prime Scotch was way more expensive, so segued into Bourbon -- Maker's and Woodford.

I'm traveling through Hungary now and am enjoying two local liquers: Unicum and Palinka. Tomorrow, I fly to Poland, and I'm much looking forward to getting hammered on potato wodka.

[jpx7]

Tomorrow, I fly to Poland, and I'm much looking forward to getting hammered on potato wodka.

Stay on the lookout for this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBubr%C3%B3wka), too. Not something unavailable in the US, but a very interesting spirit, and I presume it has to be better from the source.

[zitothebrave]

A negroni isn't a gin drink, it's a Campari and Cinzano drink with some gin stirred into it.

Recipe I was taught was equal parts Gin, Campari and sweet vermouth.

Otherwise what's the point? as the drink would be all light boozes.

[zitothebrave]

BTW my thoughts on a few cocktails I've had over the years.

Godfather - Good blend of scotch and amaretto, good wedding booze, where you're dealing with cruddy scotches.

Cosmopolitans - Don't drink them almost ever but I've been bought a few before (don't ask, it's weird) and it's really just a kamakazi with cranberry juice, super weird that it's a popular drink.

Sidecar - sweeeeeeeeet. It's so sweet. I don't get people lvoing it.

Rusty Nail - not a terrible drink. Kind of weird but it does well with a decent blended scotch.

Old Fashioned - Rye fo course. Kind of fun to make for people who like feeling special.

Personally I prefer for cocktails the wintery varieties that are heavy on booze with some cream involved. Very warming. Next christmas I'm trying to have a christmas party, and I want to make Wassail. I want to make 2 ideally if I can get it to work, the first being a traditional with some ESB. Second would be mead based but making it from a Cranberry Melomel instead of a classic honey only mead.

[jpx7]

Recipe I was taught was equal parts Gin, Campari and sweet vermouth.

Those are the proportions, yes; my comment concerned the flavor-profile. I don't think of the negroni as a "gin drink", in terms of flavor-profile or character or specific qualities: I think of it as an Americano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americano_%28cocktail%29) with gin instead of seltzer.

[jpx7]

Cosmopolitans - I've been bought a few before (don't ask, it's weird)

Well now I have to ask.


Sidecar - sweeeeeeeeet. It's so sweet. I don't get people lvoing it.

They're a bit sweet for my tastes, too, but I'll make my own once in awhile to feature (and mellow a bit with sweetness) an otherwise strong, punchy cognac (like Pierre Ferrand 1840, which is what I usually stock at home). A good trick is to cut the Cointeau down from 1.0 oz to 0.75 oz, equal to the lemon juice—but in general a lot of these pre-Prohibition cocktails skew much sweeter, I assume because people in the nineteenth century had janked-up palettes from all the tobacco and heavy-metal-laden water and over-salted, over-sulfited cured meats, and also sugars were a bit more of a novelty, not being extracted from corn and injected into every-damn-thing on the market.

For a much more awesome, much less sweet, equally-traditional cognac-based cocktail, try the Vieux Carré:

3/4 oz rye whiskey
3/4 oz cognac
3/4 oz red vermouth
1 barspoon Bénédictine
2 dashes Peychaud's
2 dashes Angsotura
Brandied cherry (optional)

[zitothebrave]

Well now I have to ask.

I night bartended at a bar that was frequented by cougars and was really lax on their rules about accepting drinks. Anyway apparently I have some odd magnetic pull towards women over 40. Anyway I double met this same group of women when I was in sales then bartending, and they kept feeding me drinks and taking me "home" not my proudest or least proudest moment.

[NinersSBChamps]

Zito is a God of alcohol.

[zitothebrave]

I'm excited that american craft spirits are starting to build up. NJ just got their first one in a long time.

[Tapate50]

The only spirits I enjoy are beer, small batch whiskey, scotch, and red wine. I can get more specific if needed, but really there is no need in all this mixer business.

[zitothebrave]

You listed 2 spirits, a wine, and a malt beverage. COME ON:snort:

[Tapate50]

You listed 2 spirits, a wine, and a malt beverage. COME ON:snort:

I forget terminology gets you all hot and bothered. Wierd.

Anyway, I guess my point is that water and a splash of lime is the abslute max I'll have with my SPIRITS.

[Runnin]

I love both gin and single malt. I'm more likely to go for gin in summer and scotch in winter but that isn't a rule.

I haven't developed a taste for rye yet but I may give it another try. Fell in love the Glenfiddich a few years ago and now have to steer clear. It just goes down too smooth. I'm slowly working my way through the other big names but haven't found a better one for me yet. Laphroaig tastes like really good cough syrup. It's growing on me.

I never thought I'd see it but now both Jim Beam and Jack Daniels have a "with honey" product. Haven't tried either yet but I did try another with honey whiskey, Torys (Suntory). It's another I think I may have to avoid.

I like red wine but lately it gives me a headache.

[zitothebrave]

I had the Jim Beam one a few weeks ago. It's not bad. It's more of liqueur than a liquor IMO. But it does go down easy.

[NinersSBChamps]

But it does go down easy.

http://penguinssauce.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/thats-what-she-said.gif

[jpx7]

But it does go down easy.

http://i.imgur.com/ynShe2c.jpg

[zitothebrave]

That is far and away my favorite. Sadly so few get it.

[AerchAngel]

Is there anyway I can get sweet rye syrup, thinking about making a liquor (not licker, but the real way of saying it) you know thick, strong, good for evening appetizers.

A little heavier than meade but as powerful as the applejack I made a few months ago.

[zitothebrave]

maybe a Rye Malt extract?

[Dalyn]

I drink 1800 mostly.

[NinersSBChamps]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTtCjo8KwyMlRgCx_c_pqINjoJ7EczqT t9BaXl5jhLA_kUsPNyCYM1738UH

Lock the thread.

[AerchAngel]

We call that the new version of MadDog, Thunderbird or NightTrane.

Bleccccccchhhh!

[AerchAngel]

Might look into that. I am trying to make a more potent version of Southern Comfort.

[zitothebrave]

I drink 1800 mostly.

Ehhh, I'm really not a tequila fan. I don't mind an anejo every now and then, but I rarely drink tequila. Outside of a margarita when it's damned hot out.

[Dalyn]

Ehhh, I'm really not a tequila fan. I don't mind an anejo every now and then, but I rarely drink tequila. Outside of a margarita when it's damned hot out.

When I drink, it is almost always tequila or wine.

[NinersSBChamps]

When I drink, it is almost always tequila or wine.
I love wine. You a red or white kind of guy? Generally I prefer white, but every once in awhile red wine is very good.

[Dalyn]

I love wine. You a red or white kind of guy? Generally I prefer white, but every once in awhile red wine is very good.

I prefer red. Pinot noir.

[Runnin]

I had the Jim Beam one a few weeks ago. It's not bad. It's more of liqueur than a liquor IMO. But it does go down easy.

Got a bottle for Valentine's Day. Very good over ice, but you're right, more like a liqueur.
http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/353/567/353567897_640.jpg

It tastes a lot like this herbal liqueur from Japan.
http://thumbnail.image.rakuten.co.jp/@0_mall/bunshin/cabinet/drug/img56047131.jpg

[Metaphysicist]

This is what folks around these parts call whiskey:

http://www.interbevgroup.com/images/brand-HongThong.jpg

It is... not whiskey. It is officially and ambiguously branded as "blended spirits," and it is omnipresent.

And everyone puts ice in their beer. And cocktails are not really a thing. Though I was able to find some Angostura in Chiang Mai.

[jpx7]

Mario Batali is a monster. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/05/21/mario_batali_s_what_i_m_drinking_is_the_celebrity_ chef_the_world_s_worst.html)

[goldfly]

This is what folks around these parts call whiskey:

http://www.interbevgroup.com/images/brand-HongThong.jpg

It is... not whiskey. It is officially and ambiguously branded as "blended spirits," and it is omnipresent.

And everyone puts ice in their beer. And cocktails are not really a thing. Though I was able to find some Angostura in Chiang Mai.

mixing that **** with soda water

had it more than a few times over there.




i love Hendrix gin btw

[zitothebrave]

Mario Batali is a monster. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/05/21/mario_batali_s_what_i_m_drinking_is_the_celebrity_ chef_the_world_s_worst.html)

Found the slate article to be condescending and douchey. Corrected that the rule with shaking vs stirring is with spirits vs mixers. But is that really a reason to get pissy? If a ****er wants to shake a cocktail why don't you let them?The ratio of Whiskey to vermouth isn't that far off a traditional manhattan. The IBL standard is 5 parts whiskey 2 parts vermouth. Mario is at 5 parts whiskey 1.5 parts vermouth. I mean for real, the doucheyness was strong with that article.

[jpx7]

The IBL standard is 5 parts whiskey 2 parts vermouth. Mario is at 5 parts whiskey 1.5 parts vermouth.

IBA standard is not the "traditional manhattan", though: 2:1, 1:1, or even 1:2 are all traditional formulations, but that 5:2 crap—like the 5:1 or 6:1 martini—is a very modern convention, and something that I find pretty silly. At 5:2 or 5:1, you're not making a cocktail: you're effectively treating vermouth like a bitters.

(And, of course, that's not even mentioning that a proper Manhattan absolutely should be composed of rye.)


Found the slate article to be condescending.

Admittedly—as a pedant generally, and a cocktail-pedant specifically—that's one thing I liked about the article. That and the fact that it's entirely correct about both good cocktails and Mario Batali.

[zitothebrave]

Half an ounce is not the same as a dash of bitters. Anda 2-1 is a perfect Manhattan. No clue who goes 1-1 or 1-2. 1-2 sounds like a different drink.

And I agree about rye. But there isn't a bourbon Manhattan name that's widely accepted like say the rob Roy. And its considered acceptable to use bourbon for that reason. But like a vodka martini it should have the name of the booze in front of it. That said I wouldn't sully a decent bourbon or scotch with vermouth and bitters. Total waste of a quality liquor.

[jpx7]

Half an ounce is not the same as a dash of bitters.

As a vermouth-lover, to me it might as well be.


And a 2-1 is a perfect Manhattan. No clue who goes 1-1 or 1-2. 1-2 sounds like a different drink.

All various recipes from 1880-1910. David Wondrich's Imbibe is a great source for these traditional/historical/original recipes. This website (http://vermouth101.com/mixology.html) also culls together some good information.

[zitothebrave]

Well, you are permitted to believe that. Personally I think getting your dick bent about cocktails isn't the best way to go. I mean Batali isn't claiming to be a cocktail expert. I'm guessing he's heavy handed. It would be like someone writing an article on what I'm cooking and putting basil in a bolognese and Batali getting bent out of shape. People can do whatever they want for themselves.

[jpx7]

Well, you are permitted to believe that. Personally I think getting your dick bent about cocktails isn't the best way to go. I mean Batali isn't claiming to be a cocktail expert. I'm guessing he's heavy handed. It would be like someone writing an article on what I'm cooking and putting basil in a bolognese and Batali getting bent out of shape. People can do whatever they want for themselves.

There's a difference between you doing what you want and a guy with huge audience, in a massively-distributed periodical, spewing crap under the auspices of haute because of his culinary station.

Meanwhile: I'm certainly not bearing any authentic umbrage at Batali's crap cocktails—it's just amusing that he has no taste in drinks, and willingly shares that fact in weekly format with the english-speaking world.

[zitothebrave]

He has taste, it's his own. For example, some hate spice, some are heavy handed with spice, doesn't make one not have taste. If Batali likes his drinks boozy, that's his own opinion. Considering most of the complaints are about names and techniques, it really just comes off as douchey.

[zitothebrave]

To put a beer equivalent on it in worse writing cause I'm horrific at writing.

"I can't believe Rogue has the audacity to call Dead Guy a Maibock. Ignoring that they use Perle, a non-noble hop. Ignoring that it's ABV is at the bottom of the Maibock spectrum barely making it there. Ignoring all that how can Rogue call a beer a bock, if it's fermented with Pacman yeast, an Ale yeast"

Douchey **** like that is why I hate critics.

[Hawk]

I LOL'd at the 'Hemingway was actually a diabetic' jab.

But, aside from that, agree with Zito that the douche-o-meter was unfavorably tipping the scales in that Slate piece. And I would disagree with the assertion that Batali is trying to paint himself as some sort of master mixologist. This is a guy that wears Orange Crocs and seems to intentionally brand himself as an over-the-top buffoon. I read the NYT Magazine because it comes with the paper on Sundays -- it's mostly fluff -- his blurb runs beside "The Meh List", so ...

[Tapate50]

three day golf tournament had me drinking a lot of what we have come to call "transfusions" or "LSDs". Ginger ale, goose, and two splashes of grape juice. Add two lime wedges and you got a great summer cocktail.

[jpx7]

I read the NYT Magazine because it comes with the paper on Sundays -- it's mostly fluff -- his blurb runs beside "The Meh List", so ...

I'd actually never read his segment, nor did I know of it until the Slate piece, nor do I regularly read NYT Magazine—Crocs just rub me the wrong way.

Plus—more importantly—as I mentioned earlier, sometimes I personally like a little pedantic righteousness. Not always, but cocktails represents one place I find it fun to be snooty (which is what I would label the tone of the Slate piece, and which I would definitely distinguish from "douchey").

[jpx7]

http://sourmashmanifesto.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/corn-whiskey-mellow-corn-70cl-50.jpg

I've been enjoying a bottle of this since last Saturday.

Still haven't decided how best to mix it—with a bottle of any spirit I haven't tried, I start off sampling it straight, then chilled/iced, then with some soda water and bitters/amari—but it's pretty shocking how dramatically the complexion is altered when the corn-composition goes from 51%-~60% (bourbon range) to 90%. True to name, it's very mellow, and extremely smooth for a bonded whiskey (rounder; less spicy but also less sweet than, say, Old Grandad Bond)—but it's also richer and darker than many of the high- or all-corn whiskeys (which frequently are unaged and marketed moonshine-style) that I've had.

A weird whiskey to place—but priced right ($10-15 range; I bought it for $13.99, I believe, at Binny's). I may see how it rolls in a Negroni variation, since it's not too assertive and could be aided by some bittering agents to balance things out. If deployed in a Manhattan variation, I'd want a spicier red vermouth—like Cinzano, Punt e Mes, or (if using a red quinquina) Bonal over Byrrh et al—for the same reasons.

[zitothebrave]

So made some bacon infused bourbon with some good quality bacon and some Knob Creek 100. I think it came up a little shy on the bacon flavor. Next time I may use more bacon/bacon fat and maybe time. Still excellent, don't know if I want to work on it twice though. Anyway I made a fantastic light riff on an old fashioned. Without any oranges or bitters I'm missing 2 key ingredients to this one, but I mixed a little bit of maple syrup (probably an ounce) with the bacon bourbon and it's fantastic. I need to work on ironing it out butit was pretty simple to make and I enjoy the whiskey as is.

[Runnin]

This is what folks around these parts call whiskey...

And everyone puts ice in their beer. And cocktails are not really a thing.
In Argentina they put ice in wine. They make a decent wine though, at least until the ice goes in.

[zitothebrave]

Had some fun with some whipping up on the spot that turned out well. Wanted to make a slight twist on a margarita.

Put in a healthy dose of tequila, in there with a healthy dose of cointreau, then a healthy dose of lime. Topped off with some carbonated water. Good flavor, good balance, does the job more than a little. .

[Runnin]

Finally bought my first bottle of this. Gonna open it tonight for a farewell toast to Jason Heyward.
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server5500/tpbc2s65/products/466/images/4490/george_dickel12new750__44457.1407758405.1280.1280. jpg?c=2

[zitothebrave]

I've got something in the works for you jpx7

Not remotely traditional, but fun.

[zitothebrave]

Ok so I lied about the not remotely traditional, but this is still fun.

Made an old fashioned. Took 1 tsp brown sugar, squeezed some orange to get the brown sugar to blend, recipes I saw called for water, I am not a fan of Maraschino cherries, too sweet, so instead of muddling an orange I figured the squeeze would replace the muddled orange and the water in one fell swoop. 2 oz of Smuggler's Notch Distillery's Bourbon, a dash of bitters and though you can't see it super well, my ice cubes are Daleks. My peel wound up being a beast. I decided to tried something a little different, but it didn't work. I'll stick to just using a pairing or chef's knife and have it be a little less pretty but the end result will have way less pith and be a better product.

So I have 2 pics, first is just it, second is it with my fun light up coaster (from thinkgeek, periodic table coastes)


http://i.imgur.com/ShRgdCp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lRPjGim.jpg

Also made a tequila sunrise for the girlfriend. Prepping for my life outside of an apartment when I'll have a bar.

[BedellBrave]

Talisker