DOTW 7/10/13: Re-sign McCann?

[weso1]

Should the Braves re-sign McCann? I know we've talked about this before, but we haven't yet on this board and now that we've seen some of what McCann can do post shoulder surgery some folks may have a change of opinion.

I don't what to think now. It's a real tough call, imo. I'm worried that Gattis could have issues with injuries, but at the same time Mac is heading toward the wrong side of 30.

[gtcway]

I'm on the fence. Can't decide one way or another. I think what it really comes down to with me is years and money. If he's willing to do a team friendly deal for 3-4 years because he's happy with the Braves and really wants to stay here, I'd seriously consider it.
However, if he's looking for market value or more, we have other options.

[Metaphysicist]

I like lifers. Put a ring on it.

[weso1]

For the purpose of this thread let's just assume that he'll get market value. It seems like a reasonable assumption with some high payroll teams in the market for catching.

[Mrs. Meta]

I like lifers. Put a ring on it.

Please, cleanse that song from my mind with some cyndi lauper or something.

[Carp]

Obviously it depends on price. Some think he'll ask for Molina money. I don't think he will. I think he wants to stay here until he retires. I think 4/50 gets it done and I think the Braves would offer that.


He's either our best or 2nd best hitter depending on what Justin Upton shows up. I really don't want to lose him.

[The Chosen One]

McCann and Huddy are technically the last players remaining from the streak (the last year in 2005).

Let's keep the battery charged! :tchop:

[yeezus]

I'm on the fence as well. This seems like a time where a good org. lets the guy walk. He's still not 30, but we can't DH him. Will he be productive in two years after continuing to catch almost every game?

[ProbationDeac]

I'm on the fence as well. This seems like a time where a good org. lets the guy walk. He's still not 30, but we can't DH him. Will he be productive in two years after continuing to catch almost every game?

Good post. I love the guy but I am not convinced it's the best decision to re-sign him. I think while he may not want Molina money I think he'll want more then we should or can realistically pay him.

[gtcway]

I know there was talk about possibly having the DH in the NL lately. How serious are the decision makers on that, or was it just some journalists speculating about it?

If there's a good chance of having the DH within 2 years, will that have an effect on resigning Mac?

[gtcway]

Good post. I love the guy but I am not convinced it's the best decision to re-sign him. I think while he may not want Molina money I think he'll want more then we should or can realistically pay him.

If he wants anywhere near Molina money then the decision is pretty easy IMO. I don't think the Braves would give him that much if we didn't have Gattis waiting to take over.

[yeezus]

I know there was talk about possibly having the DH in the NL lately. How serious are the decision makers on that, or was it just some journalists speculating about it?

If there's a good chance of having the DH within 2 years, will that have an effect on resigning Mac?

I would hope they wouldn't be allowed to enact something that quickly. Some rules, yes, change instantly. This would be a rule that DRASTICALLY changes how an organization builds its team. There would need to be a significant amount of time between passing it and actually enacting it, I would think and hope.

[yeezus]

Obviously it depends on price. Some think he'll ask for Molina money. I don't think he will. I think he wants to stay here until he retires. I think 4/50 gets it done and I think the Braves would offer that.


He's either our best or 2nd best hitter depending on what Justin Upton shows up. I really don't want to lose him.

I'm not sure why he'd go 4/50 as a catcher. I know it's plenty of money, but most guys won't take that as a 29 yr old catcher. I think he'd want more years, and someone, especially in the AL, who can catch him for 2-3 years and then DH him, will give it to him.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I dont think 4/50 is a doable thing with McCann when you look at what guys like Victorino got and Napoli asked for. And too many deep pocketed AL teams being in the market for a catcher. Yanks, Tigers and BoSox to name the big 3, and Texas as well.

Having said that, looking at the payroll now, next year and going forward, the decisions that will have to be made re guys like Heyward, Freeman, Kimbrel and the young pitchers: We have 4 large contract players and need a true TOR pitcher. Seems to me that at least 1 and preferably 2 of Uggla, Mac, the Upton Bros. will have to go.

[nsacpi]

Barring a poor second half or injury, McCann will get at least 15M/year for 4 years in the FA market. The new national TV contract is going to cause some inflation in the FA market.

[TXBravesFan]

Love Mac, but no. He makes more sense for an AL team with the DH as a fallback option.

[zitothebrave]

Yes he should be resigned as long as he takes a discount of some sort. Like 4/44 with a vesting 5th year option based on health and performance. There's a risk with him, but he's been our best player. I'd resign Mac, get Gattis a 3B mitt and get started on winning next year.

[rico43]

That's not the right question. First, it's CAN you sign McCann? Can they afford him?

[nsacpi]

It is a complicated question. It could potentially affect our ability to retain other players down the road. Heyward. Justin. Freeman. As we've seen this year, some of these guys are pretty inconsistent and not sure things either. And then there is the Gattis question. What does re-signing McCann mean for him and for the Braves?

There are no neat and tidy answers. I think re-signing McCann to a reasonable contract increases our options. So I'd do it. And I suspect my definition of reasonable is higher than most around here.

[AUTiger7222]

I absolutely love McCann. My favorite player but I don't think it would be a wise deal for the Braves to give him big money. I just think a catcher needy team like the Rangers or Yankees are going to pay McCann a boat load of money. And they also have the DH to fall back on as well. If the Braves had the DH it would be a no brainer to keep B-Mac.

[zitothebrave]

I absolutely love McCann. My favorite player but I don't think it would be a wise deal for the Braves to give him big money. I just think a catcher needy team like the Rangers or Yankees are going to pay McCann a boat load of money. And they also have the DH to fall back on as well. If the Braves had the DH it would be a no brainer to keep B-Mac.

Yankees have like 10 top catching prospects. They may go after Mac but I doubt it unless they free up money from A-Roid. Yankees don't seem keen to go bonkers on the luxury tax anymore. Rangers are an option but they seem near the north end of their spending and I think they'll gun hard for pitching.

I don't know if Mac will stay around or not. I know that if he wasnt to stay here, we won't match the best offer he'll get.

[stpeteirish]

Yes he should be resigned as long as he takes a discount of some sort. Like 4/44 with a vesting 5th year option based on health and performance. There's a risk with him, but he's been our best player. I'd resign Mac, get Gattis a 3B mitt and get started on winning next year.

you don't really think Gattis can play 3b, do you? Its a tough position and look at home many runs a stiff like CJ costs us. Gattis wouldn't even be at CJ's level defensively, IMO.

[yeezus]

Yes he should be resigned as long as he takes a discount of some sort. Like 4/44 with a vesting 5th year option based on health and performance. There's a risk with him, but he's been our best player. I'd resign Mac, get Gattis a 3B mitt and get started on winning next year.

that's a (minimum, IMO) $19MM discount. Very unlikely.

[Enscheff]

If Mac can be had for around $12M per year Wren almost has to sign him. If the price gets driven into the $15M per year range he has to let him walk.

If Mac is resigned, Wren suddenly has a trade chip in Gattis that can help fix the few problems that exist with this roster. It is clear Gattis' bat is real, or at least real enough that Wren should not be paying $15M for a 35 year old catcher at the end of some long contract.

[JohnAdcox]

I honestly believe that three things have to happen to make resigning B Mac even remotely likely:

First, The Braves advance far into the post season, creating revenue.

Second, B Mac signals willingness to consider at least something of a hometown discount.

Finally, the team hears serious rumbling that the DH is coming to the NL sooner rather than later, perhaps in return for, I don't know, maybe the union agreeing to accept harsher penalties for illegal substance use in the wake of any drug scandals that might happen to come to light.

If all three happen to create a perfect storm, I'd say there is a decent chance. Any two? A longshot. One or none? Slim at best.

Thoughts?

[weso1]

I'm not sure how much revenue playoff games bring in so I can't even comment on the first one.

But I definitely think the 2nd one is key and the third could certainly play a role as well. Pretty obvious that Gattis would be an amazing DH/Backup catcher for us.

I also think Liberty could decide to sell the team at any point. That could be another wildcard.

[stpeteirish]

If Mac can be had for around $12M per year Wren almost has to sign him. If the price gets driven into the $15M per year range he has to let him walk.

If Mac is resigned, Wren suddenly has a trade chip in Gattis that can help fix the few problems that exist with this roster. It is clear Gattis' bat is real, or at least real enough that Wren should not be paying $15M for a 35 year old catcher at the end of some long contract.

I don't think its as much about the annual $$ here as it is about contract lenght, we just can't go long unless we're using the DH. Somebody will give him 5 years, and it won't be us. Really doesn't matter if your at 12MM, 13 or 14 if you can't go out the same # of years.

[cajunrevenge]

I am on the fence leaning towards re-signing him for 15 mill a year for 4-5 years or less if we can get it. I like Gattis but with catchers not being able to play full time and his ability to play other positions I think its worthwhile to have both of them. Justin and Heyward are only signed for 2 more years so we could let one of them go and use Gattis in a corner outfield spot. Odds are we dont keep both Heyward and Justin Upton regardless of if we sign McCann anyways. The only place I see them spending the money would use to re-sign McCann is on Kimbrel.

[TURBO]

I want to resign him so bad. Love Mac. I just dont think it would be wise to go beyond 4 years

[57Brave]

Haven't seen the name Christian Bethancourt in this thread

I enjoy Gattis as much as the next guy but before you kick a player the caliber of McCann to the curb I'd like a little more there ---- there

and I do think Mac will take a hometown discount

[PawPawMaxwell]

If the Braves are willing to spend upwards of 13M then just make him a qualifying offer of around 14M and see what happens with Uggla and Justin Upton.

[AUTiger7222]

I honestly believe that three things have to happen to make resigning B Mac even remotely likely:

First, The Braves advance far into the post season, creating revenue.

Second, B Mac signals willingness to consider at least something of a hometown discount.

Finally, the team hears serious rumbling that the DH is coming to the NL sooner rather than later, perhaps in return for, I don't know, maybe the union agreeing to accept harsher penalties for illegal substance use in the wake of any drug scandals that might happen to come to light.

If all three happen to create a perfect storm, I'd say there is a decent chance. Any two? A longshot. One or none? Slim at best.

Thoughts?

The DH is coming to the NL. It's just a matter of when, not if. The MLBPA has seen how many player's careers have been prolonged thanks to it and the amount of money they've made just to swing the bat and there's just too much money involved for it not to get put into the NL eventually.

[AUTiger7222]

I want to resign him so bad. Love Mac. I just dont think it would be wise to go beyond 4 years

I think if McCann would be willing to do 4 years 48 mill as the base contract with incentives that could make it 56-60 mil overall and a vesting option for a 5th year (called an evergreen clause by JS) based on innings caught and plate appearances I think the Braves would make that deal. I certainly would.

[zitothebrave]

that's a (minimum, IMO) $19MM discount. Very unlikely.

You flat out don't know. I'm sure Mac knows that he can get more money leaving here for somewhere else. and if he wants to go that route he will. But he's a Georgia boy, who's wife is a georgia native, who's charity is Georgia based, who's family is all Georgia based, who was drafted by the Braves and has only played for one club. If there ever was a great FA that Braves had who was likely to take a steep discount it was Mac, and I'm sure Mac knows by taking a steep cut he frees up the ability to keep Heyward and Freeman.

[zitothebrave]

you don't really think Gattis can play 3b, do you? Its a tough position and look at home many runs a stiff like CJ costs us. Gattis wouldn't even be at CJ's level defensively, IMO.

Gattis I'm fairly comfortable with thinking he can best Johnson, he's got more athletic ability than CJ. Guys like Bench and Torre were able to make late career moves to 3B, I'm pretty sure Gattis could as well. Though ideally, I'd send Freddie back over there (again can't be much worse than CJ) and go with C/1B platoon with Mac and Gattis.

I'd also not be opposed to if someone would offer a fortune trading Freddie. And by a fortune realize I'm talking several top prospects or young major league players of high caliber.

[PawPawMaxwell]

There is a constant litany on these and other boards about player so and so taking a home town discount to resign. It simply never happens. Players (all players) are not worried that much about their future but the future of their children and grandchildren. A player like Paul Janish who will never earn more than the league minimum is already set for life but you cant say the same for their future generations.

[zitothebrave]

There is a constant litany on these and other boards about player so and so taking a home town discount to resign. It simply never happens. Players (all players) are not worried that much about their future but the future of their children and grandchildren. A player like Paul Janish who will never earn more than the league minimum is already set for life but you cant say the same for their future generations.

John Smoltz, Chipper Jones, Brian McCann's first contract, Tim Hudson, Andruw Jones, all players who took steep hometown discounts for this team. Sure many of them were years ago, but it does happen. Heck recently Cliff Lee turned down 50 million to play in Philly.

[thewupk]

There is a constant litany on these and other boards about player so and so taking a home town discount to resign. It simply never happens. Players (all players) are not worried that much about their future but the future of their children and grandchildren. A player like Paul Janish who will never earn more than the league minimum is already set for life but you cant say the same for their future generations.

It does happen. Chipper took discounts for years. And that's just one example.

[ProbationDeac]

Gattis I'm fairly comfortable with thinking he can best Johnson, he's got more athletic ability than CJ. Guys like Bench and Torre were able to make late career moves to 3B, I'm pretty sure Gattis could as well. Though ideally, I'd send Freddie back over there (again can't be much worse than CJ) and go with C/1B platoon with Mac and Gattis.

I'd also not be opposed to if someone would offer a fortune trading Freddie. And by a fortune realize I'm talking several top prospects or young major league players of high caliber.

I mean it would have to be a ridiculous great deal for me to agree with trading Freddie.

I will agree with others that Mac could give us a nice hometown discount. It has happened in the past and certainly could again. With that said, I think it's more likely then not that Mac is playing somewhere else next year.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I know that the Braves are our favorite team and the players are special to us but lets not get blinded by that fan(atisism).

Smoltz is first up so remember Every time Smoltz signed a new contract it was coming off injury. BTW he made 13oM
Chipper signed his first big contract early in his career and was quoted as saying: "I didnt know there was this money in the world" BTW he got substantial signing bonus money as well.
McCann signed his current contract pre arbitration and wanting to get married. No way was his contract discounted.
Hudson got 4 years, 3 guaranteed coming off TJ surgery and in his mid 30's.
Andruw Jones signed a very similar contract to Chippers at the insistance of his father.

So what Im saying here is that I dont see a truly hometown discount in the bunch.

[weso1]

Gattis I'm fairly comfortable with thinking he can best Johnson, he's got more athletic ability than CJ. Guys like Bench and Torre were able to make late career moves to 3B, I'm pretty sure Gattis could as well. Though ideally, I'd send Freddie back over there (again can't be much worse than CJ) and go with C/1B platoon with Mac and Gattis.

I'd also not be opposed to if someone would offer a fortune trading Freddie. And by a fortune realize I'm talking several top prospects or young major league players of high caliber.

You don't even consider trading Freddie right now. Fan support for Freddie is through the roof right now. Why would you trade that kind of an asset both on the field and off the field?

[The Chosen One]

I'm not sure why you're so pessimistic Paw Paw. I mean I don't think the Braves would short hand McCann THAT bad comapred to marketvalue.

Sure there's goign to be inflation in the contracts due to the new tv contracts and the market, but I think the BRaves would offer him a reasonable deal. Remember, we offered Furcal a solid deal and he still turned us down a few years ago AND the year he was going into FA.

I also think the BRaves value McCann's defensive abilities as well. He calls a really good game for pitchers, and frames pitches about as good as anybody in the league. You also forget McCann has an injury history as well, so that may factor in his contract consideration. That may just narrow it down to teams willing to DH him.

[yeezus]

You flat out don't know. I'm sure Mac knows that he can get more money leaving here for somewhere else. and if he wants to go that route he will. But he's a Georgia boy, who's wife is a georgia native, who's charity is Georgia based, who's family is all Georgia based, who was drafted by the Braves and has only played for one club. If there ever was a great FA that Braves had who was likely to take a steep discount it was Mac, and I'm sure Mac knows by taking a steep cut he frees up the ability to keep Heyward and Freeman.

i could MAYBE see a discount, but not a $20MM one. he knows he could have a nice future as a DH to prolong his career.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Im not trying to be pessimistic at all. My response is to the cry for McCann to take a hometown discount. Ive seen Zito say he thinks 4/44 will get him back. That is actually a pay reduction to what he gets now.

Actually, and Im going off what I read earlier that Mac didnt want to talk extension during the season, but I think Gattis would bring back a much bigger package in trade.

However, I stand by my main premise, going forward, at least 1 and preferably 2 of Mac, Uggla and the Uptons have to go in order to even have a chance to keep the core of young guys. Unfortunately, Mac is the easiest to part with at this time.

[weso1]

Im not trying to be pessimistic at all. My response is to the cry for McCann to take a hometown discount. Ive seen Zito say he thinks 4/44 will get him back. That is actually a pay reduction to what he gets now.

Actually, and Im going off what I read earlier that Mac didnt want to talk extension during the season, but I think Gattis would bring back a much bigger package in trade.

However, I stand by my main premise, going forward, at least 1 and preferably 2 of Mac, Uggla and the Uptons have to go in order to even have a chance to keep the core of young guys. Unfortunately, Mac is the easiest to part with at this time.

I completely agree with this, except that I think J UP is part of the core of young guys.

[zitothebrave]

You don't even consider trading Freddie right now. Fan support for Freddie is through the roof right now. Why would you trade that kind of an asset both on the field and off the field?

I wouldn't typically, but you never know. If (totally hypothetical of course) let's say the Rangers really want Freddie, and for him they offer, Profar, Olt, and Martin, and as a bonus, offer to take Uggla off our hands, could you say no to that? Every player has a price, and right now if we want a big shakeup Freddie is probably the highest piece to trade. That said, we dont' need a big shakeup since I'm sure Gattis can handle 3B if we keep Mac.

[PawPawMaxwell]

And I agree with J Upton being a viable young pup to hang on to but next year he goes to 13M. That is no proble, but then what do you do about Heyward who will go into his final year of arbitration at the end of next year. A 50M dollar OF would strangle a mid market team like the Braves who rely on pitching. Just a question.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Some day Im going to learn how to pull down quotes and posts. What do the Rangers do with Kinsler if they take Uggla in a sympathetic gesture? And didnt Gattis get a look at 3rd in the minors and winter ball? The decision being to move him to LF.

[weso1]

And I agree with J Upton being a viable young pup to hang on to but next year he goes to 13M. That is no proble, but then what do you do about Heyward who will go into his final year of arbitration at the end of next year. A 50M dollar OF would strangle a mid market team like the Braves who rely on pitching. Just a question.

My guess is Braves will have to choose two of Freeman, Heyward and J Up. Glad I don't have to make that call.

[zitothebrave]

Some day Im going to learn how to pull down quotes and posts. What do the Rangers do with Kinsler if they take Uggla in a sympathetic gesture? And didnt Gattis get a look at 3rd in the minors and winter ball? The decision being to move him to LF.

There's a reply with quote line at the bottom right of every post.

As far as Kinsler/Uggla, Uggla wouldn't replace Kinsler, he'd be their backup IF and probably starting DH. Berkman hasn'tr been hitting all that well and Uggla could be an improvement.

I was just making up a scenario that pretty much no one would say no to. Though we'd have an intriguing debate if a trade like that happened, who would play SS, Profar or Simmons. I'd go Simmons.

[zitothebrave]

My guess is Braves will have to choose two of Freeman, Heyward and J Up. Glad I don't have to make that call.

Assuming liberty isn't cheap and does give us our payroll boost when revenues go up we can afford to keep 3 of them assuming none of them want ridiculous deals.

I think we could probably extend Justin for 2 more years already to keep him together with his brother, and I think that we can keep Jason and Freddie. If we did that, by the time Justin hits FA he'll be exiting his prime so losing him won't be the worst.

[nsacpi]

Here's a rough pass at next year's payroll:

Starting pitching: Hudson (10M), Medlen (3.5), Beachy (1.5), Minor (0.5, could be higher if a Super 2), Teheran (0.5) Total (16)

Pen: Kimbrel (6.5, based on the Papelbon precedent), The Other Six (6.5) Total (13)

Regulars: McCann (15), Freeman(3.5), Uggla (13), BJ Upton (14), J Upton (14), Simmons (0.5), Heyward (4.5), C Johnson (4) Total (68.5)

Bench (6.5)

Total (104)

This year's budget is supposed to be around 95M. It should rise to 105-110 next year given the new national TV revenues (I'm assuming about half of it gets spent on salaries, which has been the historical norm).

[thethe]

I don't think Huddy gets 10M next year. If he wants to be a Brave its going to be much closer to 5 then it will be 10.

[zitothebrave]

I don't think Huddy gets 10M next year. If he wants to be a Brave its going to be much closer to 5 then it will be 10.

I would agree with that. Especially with the stable of young guys behind him

Effective rotation locks for next year barring trade or injury are Minor, Medlen, Julio, and Beachy, None will go to AAA or the pen (especially since Meds is about to get a nice pay raise and he would be the most likely candidate of that group) so that leaves 1 spot to be open and we have a ton of guys in AA and AAA who can fill that role. Wood, Martin, Northcraft, Hale, Gilmartin and if he's healthy Graham. So I would prefer Huddy to come back but if he wants more than about 6 per year, I would give that spot to Wood.

[yeezus]

I would love to trade Medlen if he finishes the season strong. He will have good value and I don't see a future for him here. Wood will be ready soon.

[zitothebrave]

I would love to trade Medlen if he finishes the season strong. He will have good value and I don't see a future for him here. Wood will be ready soon.

What I'd do if I was able to keep Huddy at say 1/6 is offer up Medlen to say the rangers for Olt and others then offer up Johnson for some prospects to build our depth, I think we'd be moving along in 2014 with a good direction.

Under that scenario though, if we keep Mac, I'd have Gattis be a super sub, catch once or twice a week (depending on off days) play the OF once or twice a week and play first once every 2 weeks.

[nsacpi]

My point is we can fit in McCann and Huddy easily into next year's payroll. The issue really is beyond 2014 when we have to make decisions on Heyward, Justin Upton, Freeman and maybe some of the pitchers.

[thethe]

Sadly I see Medlen traded after this season as well. But I still wouldn't bring Huddy back at more than 5-6 million. You are playing with fire hoping he will still be good at his age.

[thethe]

My point is we can fit in McCann and Huddy easily into next year's payroll. The issue really is beyond 2014 when we have to make decisions on Heyward, Justin Upton, Freeman and maybe some of the pitchers.

It doesn't hurt to pay more on the front size of a deal though.

[yeezus]

What I'd do if I was able to keep Huddy at say 1/6 is offer up Medlen to say the rangers for Olt and others then offer up Johnson for some prospects to build our depth, I think we'd be moving along in 2014 with a good direction.

Under that scenario though, if we keep Mac, I'd have Gattis be a super sub, catch once or twice a week (depending on off days) play the OF once or twice a week and play first once every 2 weeks.

See I don't buy into Olt at all. I'd rather deal him for a younger, higher-upside guy. And man, having another guy who will strike out 160+ times? eek.

[yeezus]

Sadly I see Medlen traded after this season as well. But I still wouldn't bring Huddy back at more than 5-6 million. You are playing with fire hoping he will still be good at his age.

I really wouldn't mind him at all for 5-7 mil to be the 5th starter. He will at least be good enough next year to be 5th starter.

[The Chosen One]

Some day Im going to learn how to pull down quotes and posts. What do the Rangers do with Kinsler if they take Uggla in a sympathetic gesture? And didnt Gattis get a look at 3rd in the minors and winter ball? The decision being to move him to LF.

Winter ball would've been before we traded for JUP IIRC.

Hell even if he fields abotu the same as CJ, you put his bat in the game.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Winter ball would've been before we traded for JUP IIRC.

Hell even if he fields abotu the same as CJ, you put his bat in the game.

That is true as far as it goes but at that time Prado and Reed Johnson were penciled in to platoon and Francisco and Prado at 3rd.

[PawPawMaxwell]

See I don't buy into Olt at all. I'd rather deal him for a younger, higher-upside guy. And man, having another guy who will strike out 160+ times? eek.
I agree with this one as well. If you want a young 3rd base prospect and are looking for a willing trade partner, assuming Walden and Avilan pan out as projected then consider moving Kimbrel for Castellanos and maybe even Rondon.

[The Chosen One]

That is true as far as it goes but at that time Prado and Reed Johnson were penciled in to platoon and Francisco and Prado at 3rd.

Point taken, but with Francisco being more of a ? than Reed Johnson, I'm sure they tried Gattis at 3rd in winterball so that 80% of the time, we'd see Gattis at 3rd and Prado in LF rather than Reed in LF and Prado at 3rd.

Winterball is just a place where the Braves experiment with their players anyways. Gattis was hitting for sure, so they just experimented where they could put him. AT the same time I'm sure Wren knew he was going to make a strong push for Upton, so Gattis' versatility was just icing on the cake.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Point taken, but with Francisco being more of a ? than Reed Johnson, I'm sure they tried Gattis at 3rd in winterball so that 80% of the time, we'd see Gattis at 3rd and Prado in LF rather than Reed in LF and Prado at 3rd.

Winterball is just a place where the Braves experiment with their players anyways. Gattis was hitting for sure, so they just experimented where they could put him. AT the same time I'm sure Wren knew he was going to make a strong push for Upton, so Gattis' versatility was just icing on the cake.

IIRC Upton came into the picture AFTER Arizona got Gregorious when they couldnt get Profar. Had already asked for Simmons and Wren backed away. Then when Prado (reportedly) wouldnt negotiate a long term deal and Arizona accepted Prado and DelGado and threw in Chris Johnson out of the blue.

[nsacpi]

It hasn't been emphasized, but re-signing McCann means we can trade Gattis for that young third baseman we all want.

[The Chosen One]

It hasn't been emphasized, but re-signing McCann means we can trade Gattis for that young third baseman we all want.

The question is, will that 3rd baseman be young enough to satisfy Zito's hunger? :confused:

[nsacpi]

The question is, will that 3rd baseman be young enough to satisfy Zito's hunger? :confused:

I think there may be one or two in the DSL young enough to satisfy him.

[AUTiger7222]

I know that the Braves are our favorite team and the players are special to us but lets not get blinded by that fan(atisism).

Smoltz is first up so remember Every time Smoltz signed a new contract it was coming off injury. BTW he made 13oM
Chipper signed his first big contract early in his career and was quoted as saying: "I didnt know there was this money in the world" BTW he got substantial signing bonus money as well.
McCann signed his current contract pre arbitration and wanting to get married. No way was his contract discounted.
Hudson got 4 years, 3 guaranteed coming off TJ surgery and in his mid 30's.
Andruw Jones signed a very similar contract to Chippers at the insistance of his father.

So what Im saying here is that I dont see a truly hometown discount in the bunch.

Really? Chipper and Andruw didn't take discounts to stay with the Braves? Andruw Jones was 24-years old, had Scott Boras as his agent and was coming off 2 monster seasons and the Braves got him re-signed for 6-years $75M or an average of $12.5M a year. Andruw had his dad do the contract with the Braves instead of Boras because he wanted to say. Had Andruw hit the free agent market, he would have gotten $150M easily because of the deals A-Rod, Jeter and Helton had just gotten. And do I really need to say anything about Chipper? He kept restructuring his contract and deferring money to say with the Braves and to try to keep the Braves competitive.

[emk418]

I love Mac but I still don't re-sign him. We have his replacement and another option coming in Bethancourt. With a lot of our young talent that will need to be locked up soon, this is an easy spot to save. My ideal scenario is if Beachy comes back strong and Teheran continues to look like a top of the rotation starter, then let Hudson, Maholm, Mccann walk. Rotation is Minor, Beachy, Teheran, Medlen, Wood/others battle it out. Then spend our money on a big 3B.

[The Chosen One]

Betancourt isn't a sure thing.

McCann is. You know what you're going to get out a healthy McCann, an 80% McCann, a 50% McCann.

Gattis may end up cooling down, you don't know that. You're underrating McCann's value. If McCann was injury free, this is a no-brainer but it also means his market value may fetch him a little less than what Mauer got.

The fact that he does have the injury ring flying above his head, gives us an advantage in negotiations IMO, unless a team like New York literally has money to throw at him at no risk.

[yeezus]

Betancourt isn't a sure thing.

McCann is. You know what you're going to get out a healthy McCann, an 80% McCann, a 50% McCann.

Gattis may end up cooling down, you don't know that. You're underrating McCann's value. If McCann was injury free, this is a no-brainer but it also means his market value may fetch him a little less than what Mauer got.

The fact that he does have the injury ring flying above his head, gives us an advantage in negotiations IMO, unless a team like New York literally has money to throw at him at no risk.

Bethancourt is FAR from a sure thing. I read something a bit ago that said no one believes in his bat outside the Braves org. He isn't really an option except as a defensive backup.

[AUTiger7222]

Betancourt isn't a sure thing.

McCann is. You know what you're going to get out a healthy McCann, an 80% McCann, a 50% McCann.

Gattis may end up cooling down, you don't know that. You're underrating McCann's value. If McCann was injury free, this is a no-brainer but it also means his market value may fetch him a little less than what Mauer got.

The fact that he does have the injury ring flying above his head, gives us an advantage in negotiations IMO, unless a team like New York literally has money to throw at him at no risk.

I don't think if he were fully healthy he would be in the Yadier Molina range, not Joe Mauer range. But the injury history will lessen his value some. Like I said I think we could get him for 4 years $48M as the base value of a deal.

[zitothebrave]

I know that the Braves are our favorite team and the players are special to us but lets not get blinded by that fan(atisism).

Smoltz is first up so remember Every time Smoltz signed a new contract it was coming off injury. BTW he made 13oM
Chipper signed his first big contract early in his career and was quoted as saying: "I didnt know there was this money in the world" BTW he got substantial signing bonus money as well.
McCann signed his current contract pre arbitration and wanting to get married. No way was his contract discounted.
Hudson got 4 years, 3 guaranteed coming off TJ surgery and in his mid 30's.
Andruw Jones signed a very similar contract to Chippers at the insistance of his father.

So what Im saying here is that I dont see a truly hometown discount in the bunch.

He still according to several people (JS being one of them) signed a team friendly deal. He could have gone the Glavine rate and taken taop dollar.

Chipper signed a 6/90 deal pretty fresh of being NL MVP around the same time as Hampton signed 8/121 Giambi 7/120 Jeter 10/189 and A-Roids 10/252. After a great career and very good 05 Chipper signed what became a 4/48 contract and was awesome. The only deal we paid close to market value for Chipper on was his last 3/42

Mac signed the deal pre-arb and sure he could have choked like Failcouer did and it wouldn't have been so team friendly, but his contract he signed was (IIRC not gonna research it) less than the similar deals signed by Wright and Reyes by a healthy margin.

Hudson signed for a essentially a 4/36 contract the same offseason a bum like Randy Wolf signed a 3/28 and John Lackey signed a 5/82. The offseason before saw massive contracts to lesser pitchers like AJ Burnett and Derek Lowe and the year Huddy would have been a FA (2010) saw Jorge de La Rosa sign 2/22. Hudson's first extension with the Braves 4/47 was also way below market, you saw what guys like Barry Zito, Gil Meche and bad Jason Schmidt got as FA. Imagine what Huddy could have gotten. He wanted to play here and signed for less because of it.

And Andruw's first contract was a mega steal, he was super young and signed a very reasonable contract. In FA he would have easily been a 100M+ player.

[elmonthc]

Wed never be able to replace bmac as a catcher. I wouldnt go more thwn four years though.

[Bj1133]

I'm more concerned about losing Mac's presence behind the plate than I am his offensive ability. I think the Braves find a way to keep him with the club (Same for Hudson).

[Bye Week]

I love Mac but I think we let him walk and try to spend some money on an ace. It is a risky proposition either way.

[chopdrew]

If you wanna keep McCann be ready to say goodbye to at least one of Freddie/jason. And Kimbrel. Not only do I not think he's back, I don't think the braves are all that cocerned w bringing him back...

[ChapelHillMatt]

I hinted at this in the gamethread today but this is what frustrates me with this organization. We are going to let a very good hitter walk because we spent money on BJ and Uggla. For an organization like ours we simply can't make those kind of mistakes and because we did we are going to suffer for it. We have to stop handing out bad contracts to bad players and keep the good ones we have developed on our own.

[zitothebrave]

If you wanna keep McCann be ready to say goodbye to at least one of Freddie/jason. And Kimbrel. Not only do I not think he's back, I don't think the braves are all that cocerned w bringing him back...

Not really

I mean if he signs for 4 years, his end years will be not too far past the end of Jason, Justin and Freddie's contracts. So some normal light backloading can keep them around.

[Heyward]

Very unlikely unless he took a team-friendly deal to stay.

I'm sure some AL team (Yankees, Rangers, Red Sox) to name a few will offer him more than we could.

I'd do 3 years, 8-10 million in AAV but unlikely he'd accept that.

[zitothebrave]

Very unlikely unless he took a team-friendly deal to stay.

I'm sure some AL team (Yankees, Rangers, Red Sox) to name a few will offer him more than we could.

I'd do 3 years, 8-10 million in AAV but unlikely he'd accept that.

Really 3/30? That's the most you'd go? Really??

[thethe]

If mac woukd go three years id pay 15. That fourth or fifth year is 2hat worries me. I think he'll have a five year deal on the table if he test FA. If the arod story is true the Yankees will throw moneh at Mac.

[nsacpi]

I think the market will be 4 years for 15M/year. Might be a little higher. Might be a little lower. Do you sign him for that?

[zitothebrave]

I think the market will be 4 years for 15M/year. Might be a little higher. Might be a little lower. Do you sign him for that?

4/60? Yes, but I think he may sign for less. Like 4/48 with a vesting 5th year.

[The Chosen One]

4/60? Yes, but I think he may sign for less. Like 4/48 with a vesting 5th year.

Mac won't take 12 in this market. Maybe 13.5. 14 definitely gets it done.

You guys have to realize the major inflation going on in player contracts these days... 12 million is a lot for us, but it's also chump change for teams now.

[zitothebrave]

Mac won't take 12 in this market. Maybe 13.5. 14 definitely gets it done.

You guys have to realize the major inflation going on in player contracts these days... 12 million is a lot for us, but it's also chump change for teams now.

Mac may be willing to sign to keep us competitive. If there's a player on this team who I think would be kept for a deal it would be him. Georgia native, Gamily in the area, wife in the area, presumably wife's family is from the area, area charities, so on so forth. He may choose to leave but I don't think he'll demand top dollar like Druw after 2007.

[thethe]

Mac won't take 12 in this market. Maybe 13.5. 14 definitely gets it done.

You guys have to realize the major inflation going on in player contracts these days... 12 million is a lot for us, but it's also chump change for teams now.

Scary thing is that the Yankees and Dodgers need a catcher.

[AUTiger7222]

Scary thing is that the Yankees and Dodgers need a catcher.

Yankees yes, Dodgers no. A.J. Ellis is solid.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Scary thing is that the Yankees and Dodgers need a catcher.

And Tigers and Rangers. None of these are financially hampered.

[Heyward]

Really 3/30? That's the most you'd go? Really??

Ok fine, 3/45, with a 4th-year option.

I worry how he'll age.

IF, IF the NL got the DH, absolutely i'd offer him a longer deal.

[Heyward]

If mac woukd go three years id pay 15. That fourth or fifth year is 2hat worries me. I think he'll have a five year deal on the table if he test FA. If the arod story is true the Yankees will throw moneh at Mac.

They might regardless.

Their C situation is absolutely awful.

They also have Pettitte, Kuroda, Granger, Mo, possibly Jeter i think and others deals expiring.

But they also gotta pay the bank for Cano.

Mac would rake in that park, and others in the AL.

I expect some AL team to offer him a bigger deal than we could.

[Heyward]

I think the market will be 4 years for 15M/year. Might be a little higher. Might be a little lower. Do you sign him for that?

I think it will be longer, mainly from an AL team who can DH him.

[Heyward]

Yankees yes, Dodgers no. A.J. Ellis is solid.

Ellis is solid but they could upgrade.

God, this scares me, Dodgers also need a 2B, if they paid the bank for Cano...........

Speaking of, wonder if we trade Kimbrel this winter, Dodgers could pay him.

[emk418]

Ellis is solid but they could upgrade.

God, this scares me, Dodgers also need a 2B, if they paid the bank for Cano...........

Speaking of, wonder if we trade Kimbrel this winter, Dodgers could pay him.

I don't understand why people keep talking about trading Kimbrel. It makes no sense.

[skidlee]

Braves don't usually pay 8+ million for a reliever, even closers. But I do think they just keep going with his arby years.

[AUTiger7222]

I don't understand why people keep talking about trading Kimbrel. It makes no sense.

Because the Braves historically don't spend much on their bullpen. One can't imagine them spending Mariano Rivera type money to keep Kimbrel.

[zitothebrave]

Because the Braves historically don't spend much on their bullpen. One can't imagine them spending Mariano Rivera type money to keep Kimbrel.

We will have 2 years of relative inexpense from Kimbrel. He'll probably make a smidge more than Papelbon did year one and 2, if we trade him it will be before his arb 3 season and that's only if (JMO) we keep Mac or Justin.

[emk418]

Because the Braves historically don't spend much on their bullpen. One can't imagine them spending Mariano Rivera type money to keep Kimbrel.

When was the last time we had a bullpen arm like Kimbrel? We never have. Smoltz was obviously dominant but he was old at the time with huge injury issues. I agree with not spending big on your bullpen but Kimbrel is the exception. We can save on the 6 other guys.

[AUTiger7222]

When was the last time we had a bullpen arm like Kimbrel? We never have. Smoltz was obviously dominant but he was old at the time with huge injury issues. I agree with not spending big on your bullpen but Kimbrel is the exception. We can save on the 6 other guys.

Kimbrel is special but it's just not smart to spend a lot of money on your bullpen or closer because relief pitchers are so fickle year to year. Look at home many teams have regretted handing out big money to closers. I would love to be like the Yankees and keep Kimbrel for his entire career because he is that special. I just don't see it happening with the budget the Braves operate with.

[Carp]

Very unlikely unless he took a team-friendly deal to stay.

I'm sure some AL team (Yankees, Rangers, Red Sox) to name a few will offer him more than we could.

I'd do 3 years, 8-10 million in AAV but unlikely he'd accept that.


People keep saying this, but Yankees are pretty hard against the luxury tax as it is without having resigned Cano yet. Can pretty much they won't drop big money on a catcher, especially considering catcher is a position they are very deep at in the minors.

BoSox already have at least 3 quality catchers on their roster now with Ross, Salty, and Lavarnaway and no room at DH either. They even have Napoli who can catch as well And add in the fact that they aren't spending like they used to.

Rangers and possibly the Tigers are really the only legitimate contenders for Mac's services. I guess you never count out either LA Team either, but both teams have more pressing needs than catcher.

[Carp]

Kimbrel is special but it's just not smart to spend a lot of money on your bullpen or closer because relief pitchers are so fickle year to year. Look at home many teams have regretted handing out big money to closers. I would love to be like the Yankees and keep Kimbrel for his entire career because he is that special. I just don't see it happening with the budget the Braves operate with.


Just have to keep praying we get a new owner in the next 2-3 seasons and may be we can keep him around. But I don't see it.

Or perhaps Craig takes a below market extension in the next 2 yrs. Say 5/45? Would anyone offer a Relief pitcher that sort of contract? That's a pretty dangerous risk for someone who only throws about 60-75 innings a yr.

[zitothebrave]

Kimbrel is special but it's just not smart to spend a lot of money on your bullpen or closer because relief pitchers are so fickle year to year. Look at home many teams have regretted handing out big money to closers. I would love to be like the Yankees and keep Kimbrel for his entire career because he is that special. I just don't see it happening with the budget the Braves operate with.

It's not smart for teams who aren't winning to spend money on pen. Having a lock down closer as a playoff team is valuable.

[zitothebrave]

Just have to keep praying we get a new owner in the next 2-3 seasons and may be we can keep him around. But I don't see it.

Or perhaps Craig takes a below market extension in the next 2 yrs. Say 5/45? Would anyone offer a Relief pitcher that sort of contract? That's a pretty dangerous risk for someone who only throws about 60-75 innings a yr.

I would offer it and honestly he's be smart to accept it cause you never know when an arm injury can ruin you.

[Heyward]

I don't understand why people keep talking about trading Kimbrel. It makes no sense.

Makes plenty of sense.

Closers are over-valued.

Paying Kimbrel 15-20 million per year is just not possible, so trading him for the best deal is good in the long-run. Unless he somehow took a team-friendly contract, we can't afford him long-term with others due new deals soon.

[Heyward]

When was the last time we had a bullpen arm like Kimbrel? We never have. Smoltz was obviously dominant but he was old at the time with huge injury issues. I agree with not spending big on your bullpen but Kimbrel is the exception. We can save on the 6 other guys.

Would you give Kimbrel 15-20 mil a year, and risk losing one of FF/Jason/JUp?

[AUTiger7222]

It's not smart for teams who aren't winning to spend money on pen. Having a lock down closer as a playoff team is valuable.

The Braves proved it with John Smoltz, that you can have the most dominate closer in your league but it doesn't make a lick of difference if he never has a chance to close out a game. Sure there were games and series (like game 5 of the NLDS against the Astros in 2005) that they lost because they didn't have that guy but they had some some good ones and still only won 1 World Series. I mean Wohlers was one of the best at the time he had the meltdown against the Yankees in 1996.

[AUTiger7222]

Would you give Kimbrel 15-20 mil a year, and risk losing one of FF/Jason/JUp?

I wouldn't. Not in a million years.

[Heyward]

People keep saying this, but Yankees are pretty hard against the luxury tax as it is without having resigned Cano yet. Can pretty much they won't drop big money on a catcher, especially considering catcher is a position they are very deep at in the minors.

BoSox already have at least 3 quality catchers on their roster now with Ross, Salty, and Lavarnaway and no room at DH either. They even have Napoli who can catch as well And add in the fact that they aren't spending like they used to.

Rangers and possibly the Tigers are really the only legitimate contenders for Mac's services. I guess you never count out either LA Team either, but both teams have more pressing needs than catcher.

Fair on the Yankees and Boston.

The LA teams, or Rangers would seem possible.

Still wouldn't be all that surprised if the Yankees signed him.

I doubt the Tigers will, they need to keep some of their own players. Miggy is due a new deal, AJax as well, and Fister/Scherzer get really expensive soon.

[Heyward]

When was the last time we had a bullpen arm like Kimbrel? We never have. Smoltz was obviously dominant but he was old at the time with huge injury issues. I agree with not spending big on your bullpen but Kimbrel is the exception. We can save on the 6 other guys.

For the record, i love Kimbrel, best closer in the game without question, but...

Can you really justify paying a closer 15-20 million potentially?

Because if he keeps pitching this well, it will likely cost that to keep him. I have no idea who would replace him but we could use that money in other areas and be a better overall team.

Ideally he would take a team-friendly deal, say 5 years, 50 million with team options but assuming he would turn that down, you gotta trade him while his value is sky high.

[zitothebrave]

The Braves proved it with John Smoltz, that you can have the most dominate closer in your league but it doesn't make a lick of difference if he never has a chance to close out a game. Sure there were games and series (like game 5 of the NLDS against the Astros in 2005) that they lost because they didn't have that guy but they had some some good ones and still only won 1 World Series. I mean Wohlers was one of the best at the time he had the meltdown against the Yankees in 1996.

Neither of those 2 are close to Kimbrel. Kimbrel is special we should keep him as long as we possibly can. We're talking about a guy who may go down as the greatest closer of all time if he can stay healthy enough.

[AUTiger7222]

For the record, i love Kimbrel, best closer in the game without question, but...

Can you really justify paying a closer 15-20 million potentially?

Because if he keeps pitching this well, it will likely cost that to keep him. I have no idea who would replace him but we could use that money in other areas and be a better overall team.

Ideally he would take a team-friendly deal, say 5 years, 50 million with team options but assuming he would turn that down, you gotta trade him while his value is sky high.

I would even have trouble giving him $10M a year if he would even take that deal considering that Papelbon for 4 for $48M from the Phillies and now they're stuck with him.

[zitothebrave]

Fair on the Yankees and Boston.

The LA teams, or Rangers would seem possible.

Still wouldn't be all that surprised if the Yankees signed him.

I doubt the Tigers will, they need to keep some of their own players. Miggy is due a new deal, AJax as well, and Fister/Scherzer get really expensive soon.

If Mac wants the best offer, it won't be from us, if he wants to stay ehre I'm sure we can work out a deal that works for both of us.

[AUTiger7222]

Neither of those 2 are close to Kimbrel. Kimbrel is special we should keep him as long as we possibly can. We're talking about a guy who may go down as the greatest closer of all time if he can stay healthy enough.

I understand that. But again can the Braves really justify playing $10-15M a year for Kimbrel with a payroll budget of only $90M?

I mean what good would it do to have Kimbrel locked up for that much if the rest of the team isn't good enough for it to matter?

[emk418]

Neither of those 2 are close to Kimbrel. Kimbrel is special we should keep him as long as we possibly can. We're talking about a guy who may go down as the greatest closer of all time if he can stay healthy enough.

Exactly. There's a different between paying a very good closer a lot of money or spending extra to keep one of the most dominant pitchers in recent memory with the team. If he's demanding $20M then no I don't keep him. But if we can lock him up for roughly $15M I would have a hard time saying no.

[zitothebrave]

I understand that. But again can the Braves really justify playing $10-15M a year for Kimbrel with a payroll budget of only $90M?

I mean what good would it do to have Kimbrel locked up for that much if the rest of the team isn't good enough for it to matter?

Pretty sure their payroll will go up, but yeah I'd go for it at 15M

[AUTiger7222]

Pretty sure their payroll will go up, but yeah I'd go for it at 15M

Why would the payroll go up? What reason do we have to believe Liberty Media would spend more on the Braves or sell the team to someone who would increase payroll?

[zitothebrave]

Why would the payroll go up? What reason do we have to believe Liberty Media would spend more on the Braves or sell the team to someone who would increase payroll?

I believe it was McGuirk who said our payroll could go up to 95-100 this year, then the new national revenue. I'm guess it will be able to go up to the 100-110 range. Braves are spending less now so they aren't overly bogged down when they have to pay for Jason, Freddie, etc.

[Heyward]

If Mac wants the best offer, it won't be from us, if he wants to stay ehre I'm sure we can work out a deal that works for both of us.

I don't disagree, i've reports we may move on, and just go with Bethancourt/Gattis at C.

[Heyward]

Why would the payroll go up? What reason do we have to believe Liberty Media would spend more on the Braves or sell the team to someone who would increase payroll?

Every teams payroll moves up, by how much, no one knows.

If we get, per say, 10-15 million that would be good.

[Heyward]

Why would the payroll go up? What reason do we have to believe Liberty Media would spend more on the Braves or sell the team to someone who would increase payroll?

With the revenue every team will get.

Not sure how much it will go up however.

[zitothebrave]

I don't disagree, i've reports we may move on, and just go with Bethancourt/Gattis at C.

We may, but who knows.

[Heyward]

Exactly. There's a different between paying a very good closer a lot of money or spending extra to keep one of the most dominant pitchers in recent memory with the team. If he's demanding $20M then no I don't keep him. But if we can lock him up for roughly $15M I would have a hard time saying no.

Only way i'd consider 15 mil is if the payroll jumps up 15 million and into the 105-110 million range.

If the payroll stays around 90-95, you can't justify paying him that, no way, as good as he is.

[Heyward]

We may, but who knows.

If he'd stay on a team-friendly deal, i'd love to have him back but i'm just not sure that will happen.

[Heyward]

I would even have trouble giving him $10M a year if he would even take that deal considering that Papelbon for 4 for $48M from the Phillies and now they're stuck with him.

Well, our payroll may go up a little bit with the increased revenue every team gets.

I'd do 10 million if it goes up, don't think he would accept that though.

[Carp]

Neither of those 2 are close to Kimbrel. Kimbrel is special we should keep him as long as we possibly can. We're talking about a guy who may go down as the greatest closer of all time if he can stay healthy enough.


Not sure how Smoltz is not close to Kimbrel, especially factoring in the offenses in the post-steroid era. Smoltz still is tied for the most saves in the NL.

[zitothebrave]

Not sure how Smoltz is not close to Kimbrel, especially factoring in the offenses in the post-steroid era. Smoltz still is tied for the most saves in the NL.

Smoltz never had a year as dominating as Kimbrel's as a reliver, While you have a point about steroids era, Kimbrel's ERA and FIP are like a full run lower on his career than Smoltz as a closer, from 02-04 Smoltz had a 173 ERA+, Kimbrel is sitting at 266. Kimbrel hasn't even had 1 season where his ERA+ is below Smoltz's average from his closing years. Smoltz was great, Kimbrel is other worldly. Using fWAR, Kimbrel has compiled an 8.0 WAR in under 200 IP. Meaning if he has a somewhat healthy career and gets to 800 IP, odds are he'll be the 2nd best reliever of the last 20 years ahead of Wagner, Hoffman, Nathan, and Papelbon. Kimbrel is on pace to be special, legendary even. We're talking about a guy who if he's healthy enough could eclipse Mo except for post season success, no one will beat him there.

[Carp]

Kimbrell's 2012 and Smoltz's 2003 are virtually identical (strkeouts aside). Plus let's not forget that Smoltz's 2002 was warped by his 2nd outing of the yr in which Cox left him in and he gave up 8 runs to the Mets. Had Smoltz not gone back to a starter, he would have been ahead of Wagner, Hoffman, Nathan, etc as well.

[zitothebrave]

Kimbrell's 2012 and Smoltz's 2003 are virtually identical (strkeouts aside). Plus let's not forget that Smoltz's 2002 was warped by his 2nd outing of the yr in which Cox left him in and he gave up 8 runs to the Mets.

Smoltz's 2003 and Kimbrel's 2012 aren't close aside from ERA.

Smoltz went 64.1 innings, walked 8 struck out 73 gave up 2 homers, for a ERA of 1.12 a FIP of 1.54 and an xFIP of 2.50 (meaning he was pretty danged fortunate to not give up more homers) and a SIERA of 2.02. Amazing numbers. But that was his one dominant season. His other 2 don't come close to it and I look at more than just one season usually, don't know if you realized that but I digress.

Kimbrel's 2012 he went 62.2 IP walked 14 struck out 116, gave up 3 homers for an ERA of 1.01 a FIP of 0.78 an xFIP of 0.88 and a SIERA of 0.68

Smoltz was awesome, but he was fortunate (can't say the L word around Meta or he'll melt down) to have given up so few runs, while Kimbrel by all indications was a smidge unfortunate in the runs allowed department, and he bested Smoltz in those. So Smoltz's best season he overachieved his peripherals and couldn't catch Kimbrel's best season where he underachieved his peripherals.

But Smoltz is close to Kimbrel ha.

Care to bring up a larger sample though? Like 02-04 for Smoltz vs Kimbrel's career? Care to bring that up?

I will.

From 02-04 Smoltz compiled these rate stats 9.66 K/9 1.79 BB/9 2.47 ERA 2.27 FIP 2.72 xFIP 2.39 SIERA

From 10-now for Kimbrel he's got these rate stats 15.5 K/9 3.4 BB/9 1.47 ERA 1.42 FIP 1.70 xFIP 1.41 SIERA

Of relief pitchers with 190 IP, Kimbrel is 1st in K/9 by over 1 first in ERA by half a run (though Mo has slipped a little lately) first in FIP by about 7/10 of a run and for those who qualify for SIERA (02 til now) has a 3/10 of a run advantage.

Kimbrel is not a great closer, far and away he's the best reliever in the game over a healthy sample, and Smoltz wasn't that.