Simmons signed to 7 year extension

[Tapate50]

Per Roto

[BremanFan88]

Awesome. Just got to get Heyward locked up next offseason and we'll be sitting pretty for a while.

[sturg33]

The Braves have agreed to a seven-year extension with shortstop Andrelton Simmons, the club announced today via press release. Simmons will receive a $58MM guarantee, tweets Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports.

Simmons, 24, will now be under contract with Atlanta through the 2020 season. The deal covers all of his arb-eligible years and includes two seasons of free agent eligibility. With just 1.125 years of service heading into 2014, Simmons was a possible (but by no means certain) Super Two player for 2015.

[thethe]

EFFIN BEAUTIFUL!

[NinersSBChamps]

And another one falls into place. 7/58 is a good deal for Simmons. Considering he hasn't shown a ton of offense he must really love this deal. I said something like 6/50 a few days ago is what I would offer him.

I do think this deal isn't as team friendly as we would have hoped for, but it falls in line with the young guys staying here. I am happy for Simba because I love him as a player. He is so fun to watch out there. His bat should begin to improve as well and if it does watch out.

[thethe]

This guy will hit. Guys who swing that hard and don't strike out are bound to figure it out!

[thethe]

And another one falls into place. 7/58 is a good deal for Simmons. Considering he hasn't shown a ton of offense he must really love this deal. I said something like 6/50 a few days ago is what I would offer him.

I do think this deal isn't as team friendly as we would have hoped for, but it falls in line with the young guys staying here. I am happy for Simba because I love him as a player. He is so fun to watch out there. His bat should begin to improve as well and if it does watch out.

When inflation continues to hit baseball this is going to be the best contract out there in two years

[NinersSBChamps]

This guy will hit. Guys who swing that hard and don't strike out are bound to figure it out!

Yes he has awesome plate coverage and when he swings it generally means contact of some sort. I question his approach sometimes because he goes up there hacking a lot of the time and doesn't see enough pitches. The signs point to him slowing it down and becoming a decent hitter though. So, I am not worried about him all that much.

Like you said in a couple seasons this contract can look really good and I think it will.

Kudos to Wren on this one.

[The Chosen One]

Jesus. At this rate the stickied threads will outnumber the unstuck threads.

[jcc03004]

Minor next? Plz

[NinersSBChamps]

:pound::pound::pound::pound:
Jesus. At this rate the stickied threads will outnumber the unstuck threads.

[sturg33]

Breakdown:

$1m signing bonus

2014: $1M
2015: $3M
2016: $6M
2017: $8M
2018: $11M
2019: $13M
2020: $15M

[Hudson2]

Wren's not bs'n around. He is gettin it done with our own players and it's awesome. I'm hopin Minor is next.

[yeezus]

hootie hoooooo
let's go!

[AUTiger7222]

Yes he has awesome plate coverage and when he swings it generally means contact of some sort. I question his approach sometimes because he goes up there hacking a lot of the time and doesn't see enough pitches. The signs point to him slowing it down and becoming a decent hitter though. So, I am not worried about him all that much.

Like you said in a couple seasons this contract can look really good and I think it will.

Kudos to Wren on this one.

What I like most about Simmons is that in clutch situations he slows down and has better at-bats and usually comes through with big hits. How many game winning hits has he already had in his short career? A lot. That screams someone who will eventually become a very good hitter.

[AUTiger7222]

Simmons signed! This is so effing crazy! Let's sign me up next! Give me the interest off Freddie's deal and I'll be happy!

[The Chosen One]

Thank god the offseason didn't end with Gamel and Doumit being the signings.

And another thing, February is the month of love, and it's time to give another shout out to Frank Wren. He really wants to do something special with this core. Offer Heyward something in between Android and Freeman and go with it.

[mossy]

Woohoo!!!

[emk418]

This guy will hit. Guys who swing that hard and don't strike out are bound to figure it out!

Definitely a bargain. He's the guy I really wanted to lock up before he breaks out offensively. We saved a lot of money getting it done this year.

Now time to get Minor locked up.

[thewupk]

Pretty good deal. He will be making 13 and 15 million in his two free agency years. Compare that to the Andrus deal last spring who is going to be topping out at 15 million per year with his deal and Simmons is 1) a better player and 2) signed his after contracts started inflating. If we had waited a year or two those free agency years would of been close to 20 million imo.

[The Chosen One]

This is arguably the best offensive core we've ever had, probably best defensive too.

DJustice, Klesko, Javy, Chipper coming up in a few years... this core can match up with them if not better.

Pitching wise you have to take Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, etc. More reputation and bigger results than Minor, Medlen, Beachy, Teheran, and hopefully Wood.

[yeezus]

Pretty good deal. He will be making 13 and 15 million in his two free agency years. Compare that to the Andrus deal last spring who is going to be topping out at 15 million per year with his deal and Andrus is 1) a better player and 2) signed his after contracts started inflating. If we had waited a year or two those free agency years would of been close to 20 million imo.

You mean Andrelton is better than Andrus, correct?

[thewupk]

You mean Andrelton is better than Andrus, correct?

Yeah. He's the superior player.

[The Chosen One]

You mean Andrelton is better than Andrus, correct?

Man an Andrus and Andrelton double play combo at SS and 2B... and Elvis stealing bases hitting leadoff... sigh... :Sad:

[thethe]

You mean Andrelton is better than Andrus, correct?

I'm sure he did

[The Chosen One]

How many teams can say they had the best defensive player at a position all time, and we were given the honor of watching two: Andruw grow up, and Andrelton develop as well.

[thewupk]

How many teams can say they had the best defensive player at a position all time, and we were given the honor of watching two: Andruw grow up, and Andrelton develop as well.

6 other teams? Since the Braves got to watch the best defensive pitcher of all time too.

[thethe]

6 other teams? Since the Braves got to watch the best defensive pitcher of all time too.

C: Bench
1B: Hernandez
2B: ??
SS: Simmons
3B: Robinson (maybe machado one day)
LF: ?
RF: Clemente
CF: Druw

Who are the question marks?

[nsacpi]

This is the best (from club perspective) and most important of the recent signings. Bravo Frank Wren!

[thewupk]

C: Bench
1B: Hernandez
2B: ??
SS: Simmons
3B: Robinson (maybe machado one day)
LF: ?
RF: Clemente
CF: Druw

Who are the question marks?

Quick glances I would have Bonds in left. Not sure about 2nd. Not many prolific defenders there. And I would personally have Ichiro in right.

[nsacpi]

Quick glances I would have Bonds in left. Not sure about 2nd. Not many prolific defenders there. And I would personally have Ichiro in right.

Garret Anderson in left.

[thewupk]

It is curious to see him getting 3 million next year. I guess the Braves were thinking he would of ended up as a super 2 player.

[Hawk]

Further proof that the Braves have money to spend.

I feel like I'm beginning to sound like a broken record.

Stocks are going up, baby.

[thethe]

Further proof that the Braves have money to spend.

I feel like I'm beginning to sound like a broken record.

Stocks are going up, baby.

First time in over 10 years I felt like the team had money AND was willing to spend it.

[Heyward]

Great deal.

Gives Wren some leverage with JUp or JHey next winter.

He signed for less than i thought but this is a steal.

Minor would the next i'd try to do but i'm not sure how much that would cost.

[thethe]

Great deal.

Gives Wren some leverage with JUp or JHey next winter.

He signed for less than i thought but this is a steal.

Minor would the next i'd try to do but i'm not sure how much that would cost.

I hope that both Minor/Medlen want to stay. While we are giving out money we might as well sign those guys.

[Heyward]

Further proof that the Braves have money to spend.

I feel like I'm beginning to sound like a broken record.

Stocks are going up, baby.

None of this is possible without the new ballpark.

Sherman, Rosnethal and others said this yesterday on MLB Network.

[Heyward]

I hope that both Minor/Medlen want to stay. While we are giving out money we might as well sign those guys.

I'm not sure i'd sign Medlen unless he'd take a huge discount.

Minor for sure but with the insane SP deals out there, he may cost a lot.

[PawPawMaxwell]

None of this is possible without the new ballpark.

Sherman, Rosnethal and others said this yesterday on MLB Network.

And most of the same writers have said it will be extremely hard to keep Heyward and even more so with todays signing. I would guess we would have to include Upton as being difficult as well.

[BlackwaterPark]

Thank you John Hart for your expertise and guidance!

[Dalyn]

Awesome! Watching Simmons play is a joy.

[DaneHill]

C: Bench
1B: Hernandez
2B: ??
SS: Simmons
3B: Robinson (maybe machado one day)
LF: ?
RF: Clemente
CF: Druw

Who are the question marks?

Robbie Alomar was by far the best I'd ever seen at 2B. Highlight reel every game, much like Simmons.

[Hawk]

And most of the same writers have said it will be extremely hard to keep Heyward and even more so with todays signing. I would guess we would have to include Upton as being difficult as well.

Who said this, and where?

[Heyward]

And most of the same writers have said it will be extremely hard to keep Heyward and even more so with todays signing. I would guess we would have to include Upton as being difficult as well.

Yes, Heyward will be the most difficult to sign.

They can probably only keep one of JUp or Heyward though.

[skillet]

Wow, I am floored with the money we have spent over the past two weeks, to the tune of over $280MM. We've given out more in extensions in the past few days than we have in the past 10-20 years. Cobb County has saved the day. For so many years we've been penny pinchers, and now this. Just wow.

[Hawk]

Yes, Heyward will be the most difficult to sign.

They can probably only keep one of JUp or Heyward though.

That would depend on what kind of years he puts up in 2014/2015. It's not totally outside of the realm of possibility that they revisit a deal with Jason this season, now that the core is coming together cohesively.

They could give the two, combined, somewhere in the neighborhood of $35-40MM annually -- but not much more, and with some creative language likely inserted.

[DaneHill]

Didn't someone mention that the Braves are not allowed to re-negotiate with Jason until after this season?

[Heyward]

Who said this, and where?

Yeah, i havent seen that either.

But i would figure it will be hard to keep Heyward though.

[Heyward]

Didn't someone mention that the Braves are not allowed to re-negotiate with Jason until after this season?

They can now but i would guess they re-do talks next winter or after the season.

[tululush]

They can now but i would guess they re-do talks next winter or after the season.

It would be nice if Heyward saw all this activity and said eff it, sign me up, please. Doubtful but you never know. Just the other day (Sunday) I read on here that Simmons and the Braves were far apart in figures to sign long term. Then 4 days later and they've reached a long term deal.

[The Chosen One]

First time in over 10 years I felt like the team had money AND was willing to spend it.

Mainly because of how cheap these contracts are below market value. If they weren't, we aren't going to spend on these guys at market value.

[DaneHill]

We MUST be turning a lot of players' heads and becoming quite attractive to potential future free agents.

[DaneHill]

They can now but i would guess they re-do talks next winter or after the season.

Thanks, Heyward. Good to know. I was confused by that point when I read it the other day. Must have misunderstood.

[Hudson2]

I see Heyward as kind of arrogant and probably wants more than he's worth. You can't always pay a player based on what he's capable of but what he's accomplished. I like Heyward and wish he would stay but if he snubs us one more time I'd give the money to Upton.

[thethe]

Mainly because of how cheap these contracts are below market value. If they weren't, we aren't going to spend on these guys at market value.

It think Freemans deal was pretty much market value and then the chips started to fall after that.

[cajunrevenge]

From what i read the two year deal was the result of negotiations for a long term deal. They agreed to the two year deal and plan to negotiate next offseason for a longer extension. That means there was a big gap between the braves and Heyward. The braves want to see Heyward play a full season with no DL trips and Heyward probably thinks he will have a breakout year with the bat.

Overall I think its a positive sign. I think the fact that his deal got done first is proof that he was the number 1 priority.

[Hawk]

From what i read the two year deal was the result of negotiations for a long term deal. They agreed to the two year deal and plan to negotiate next offseason for a longer extension. That means there was a big gap between the braves and Heyward. The braves want to see Heyward play a full season with no DL trips and Heyward probably thinks he will have a breakout year with the bat.

The Braves never offered Jason anything long-term, according to Wren.

[Enscheff]

From what i read the two year deal was the result of negotiations for a long term deal. They agreed to the two year deal and plan to negotiate next offseason for a longer extension. That means there was a big gap between the braves and Heyward. The braves want to see Heyward play a full season with no DL trips and Heyward probably thinks he will have a breakout year with the bat.

Overall I think its a positive sign. I think the fact that his deal got done first is proof that he was the number 1 priority.

I agree. Heyward would be "selling low" on himself if he signed a longterm deal right now. None of the current guys that signed an extension are in the same boat.

[50PoundHead]

Looks like a pretty good deal on Simmons. Much better than what the Rangers shelled out for Andrus.

[chipchildress]

The Braves never offered Jason anything long-term, according to Wren.

for good reason...

[jpx7]

for good reason...

Strongly disagree.

[Orphan Black]

The Braves never offered Jason anything long-term, according to Wren.

That may be true, but that doesn't mean they didn't discuss something "long-term."

[jpx7]

I see Heyward as kind of arrogant

Cool story, bro.

[Heyward]

for good reason...

:facepalm:

[Heyward]

http://www.talkingchop.com/2014/2/20/5430778/schuerholz-wren-talk-heyward-and-extensions

The expectation is that after next season, the Heyward deal can be expanded so that he, too, will be locked up at least through the first year in the new ballpark.

[sentenza]

I'm interested what we will pay other players, when all these long-term signed players get 12-15 Mio. $ in 4 or 5 years.

[Heyward]

I see Heyward as kind of arrogant and probably wants more than he's worth.

I'm sure he's dissapointed you think that about him.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Who said this, and where?

DOB, Sherman, Rosenthal all within the last week on various media. Rosenthal and Heyman or Sherman was put up on MLbTrade Rumors. DOB on one of his tweets or columns in AJC.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Olney article on 5 Feb. In MLBTR. Im looking for more but dont know how to link.

[Heyward]

Olney article on 5 Feb. In MLBTR. Im looking for more but dont know how to link.

Copy/Paste, left or right click, not rocket science.

[NinersSBChamps]

Copy/Paste, left or right click, not rocket science.

Holy cow man. Relax.

[NYCBrave]

Looks like a pretty good deal on Simmons. Much better than what the Rangers shelled out for Andrus.

100% agree!

[Braves1976]

Best extension of the off-season so far IMO, great job locking up Simmons now before the cost goes up.

[Heyward]

Holy cow man. Relax.

It was a joke, dont get your panties in a wad.

[nsacpi]

Best extension of the off-season so far IMO, great job locking up Simmons now before the cost goes up.

No doubt.

[PawPawMaxwell]

It was a joke, dont get your panties in a wad.

Heyward, Im 74 years old. I learned to read before I learned to type and on top of that consider that this machine is your generation, not mine. Its too late for me to ever be a GM, gave up hero worship probably before most posters on here were born (other than PawPaw Maxwell but that is another story), and once the season starts I wont be on here enough to antagonize you.

[weso1]

Those of you who were unhappy with the move to the new stadium may want to rethink that position now. Signing two of our young talented position players to long terms deals is huge.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Those of you who were unhappy with the move to the new stadium may want to rethink that position now. Signing two of our young talented position players to long terms deals is huge.

Yep, my position has completely changed. The new stadium obviously is allowing all of this. I don't understand all of it but I'm very happy.

I don't agree this is the best signing though, the best one was Kimbrel. None of the players we've signed to extensions are as dominant as he is. He's the best player at his position, can't say the same for others.

[weso1]

Yep, my position has completely changed. The new stadium obviously is allowing all of this. I don't understand all of it but I'm very happy.

I don't agree this is the best signing though, the best one was Kimbrel. None of the players we've signed to extensions are as dominant as he is. He's the best player at his position, can't say the same for others.

And actually my opinion on the Kimbrel signing has changed. My biggest complaint was that I didn't think it was smart for a mid market team to sign any closer to an expensive long term deal, but now I'm not sure if we are even going to be a mid market team. Seems like something is going on with this new stadium. Is it possible the fact that the Braves will be moving out of Atlanta mean that the TV deal becomes void? Something to question at least.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I recommend that those who have time READ the Ringoldsby article closely. Seems that the Talking Chop writers cherry picked somewhat. Mark Bowmans blog on MLB.com also has a different view re: Heyward.

[Hudson2]

I know




Cool story, bro.

[Braves1976]

I don't agree this is the best signing though, the best one was Kimbrel. None of the players we've signed to extensions are as dominant as he is. He's the best player at his position, can't say the same for others.

Simmons is as great as you'll see on defense at short and his offense is likely to improve. He is the best player defensively in the game IMO. He was a huge reason we won the NL East last season. He saves a ton of runs and that makes a lot bigger impact than your comments indicate. Simmons also makes it possible to win (on a regular basis) with poor defenders to his left and his right (Uggla and CJ).

[Hudson2]

I'm sure he is smartass


I'm sure he's dissapointed you think that about him.

[thewupk]

Simmons is as great as you'll see on defense at short and his offense is likely to improve. He is the best player defensively in the game IMO. He was a huge reason we won the NL East last season. He saves a ton of runs and that makes a lot bigger impact than your comments indicate. Simmons also makes it possible to win (on a regular basis) with poor defenders to his left and his right (Uggla and CJ).

Simmons was actually 3rd in fWAR among SS i 2013 at 4.7. Ian Desmond was at 5 and Tulowitski at 5.6. It's not hard to see Simmons' low BABIP correcting itself and have a WRC+ of 115 in 2014. That combined with his defense would likely produce a 6 WAR season which could very well be the best among SS.

[DaneHill]

And actually my opinion on the Kimbrel signing has changed. My biggest complaint was that I didn't think it was smart for a mid market team to sign any closer to an expensive long term deal, but now I'm not sure if we are even going to be a mid market team. Seems like something is going on with this new stadium. Is it possible the fact that the Braves will be moving out of Atlanta mean that the TV deal becomes void? Something to question at least.

Now that is an interesting question.... :popcorn:

[Heyward]

And actually my opinion on the Kimbrel signing has changed. My biggest complaint was that I didn't think it was smart for a mid market team to sign any closer to an expensive long term deal, but now I'm not sure if we are even going to be a mid market team. Seems like something is going on with this new stadium. Is it possible the fact that the Braves will be moving out of Atlanta mean that the TV deal becomes void? Something to question at least.

The only thing with Kimbrel was because i thought he wouldnt sign that cheap.

Payroll IS moving up, maybe not to LA/NYY/Phi level but around the 115-120 level, i think, maybe more, who knows.

But yes, lot of people said this couldnt happen without the new stadium given our TV deal blows.

[Heyward]

I'm sure he is smartass

Dont judge him because he turned down one extension.

I hope like everyone else he signs with the Braves longterm but you dont know what kind of deal he wants or was first offered.

[Heyward]

Kevin McAlpin @KevinMcAlpin
Frank Wren is happy w/locking up the young core, but "wouldn't characterize that we're done. I'd characterize that its a work in progress"

[Heyward]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg76hUqCcAA7nwt.jpg

[Heyward]

David O'Brien ‏@ajcbraves 21m
Mostly likely next one, IMO. RT: @ajcbraves i think the last one will be Minor. And you?

Hmm.

[Hawk]

Damn, we have a lot to look forward to.

[clvclv]

C: Bench
1B: Hernandez
2B: Robbie Alomar/ Joe Morgan
SS: Simmons
3B: Robinson (maybe machado one day)
LF: Shoeless Joe/Rickey Henderson
RF: Clemente
CF: Druw

Who are the question marks?


Personally would say Alomar and Shoeless Joe, but can see the argument for the other two.

[AUTiger7222]

C: Bench
1B: Hernandez
2B: ??
SS: Simmons
3B: Robinson (maybe machado one day)
LF: ?
RF: Clemente
CF: Druw

Who are the question marks?

Someone mentioned Bonds and he was good in his younger days but he didn't have much of a throwing arm. Hard to think and consider great defensive left-fielders. You would probably have to go back decades to find the best one ever, maybe Ted Williams? Or did he play RF?

At 2nd base I'd probably go with Ryne Sandberg.

[zitothebrave]

Simmons was actually 3rd in fWAR among SS i 2013 at 4.7. Ian Desmond was at 5 and Tulowitski at 5.6. It's not hard to see Simmons' low BABIP correcting itself and have a WRC+ of 115 in 2014. That combined with his defense would likely produce a 6 WAR season which could very well be the best among SS.

I think you're way over optimistic on that correction. Are you accounting for his massive IFFB?

[thewupk]

Someone mentioned Bonds and he was good in his younger days but he didn't have much of a throwing arm. Hard to think and consider great defensive left-fielders. You would probably have to go back decades to find the best one ever, maybe Ted Williams? Or did he play RF?

At 2nd base I'd probably go with Ryne Sandberg.

He played left and was um, not very good, to put it nicely. Yeah Bonds' didn't have much of an arm at all but he was fast and made accurate reads. Positioned himself really well too. He had the ability to play center in his younger days and likely would of stayed there if he had a stronger or the Pirates hadn't acquired Van Slyke in 87.

[Nerfherders]

The problem with LF is that if you have any ability to play the outfield you're not playing LF. If you want an all-time defensive OF you're going to put 3 CF's in there.

[thewupk]

I think you're way over optimistic on that correction. Are you accounting for his massive IFFB?

I think that's something to come down actually as he matures as a hitter. Even if he doesn't it's not impossible for him to have a 300is BABIP as he showed briefly in 2012.

[Dalyn]

Cobb County, Kimbrel, Simmons, Wren, Freeman, Heyward, Teheran, ..., ..., ..., ..., ..., ..., ..., ..., ..., ..., ..., Fredi

That's how I would rank the recent deals.

[thewupk]

The problem with LF is that if you have any ability to play the outfield you're not playing LF. If you want an all-time defensive OF you're going to put 3 CF's in there.

That's not accurate at all. If you have the ability to cover a ton of ground but have a weak throwing arm you will get a lot of time in left. Especially if there is another outfielder who can cover ground but a better arm to stick in center. See Brett Gardner and Carl Crawford.

[Heyward]

FWIW, Simmons was the best SS in baseball according to WAR last year.

I think it was 6.2 or 6.4

Hanley was 2nd, Tulo was 3rd.

This was on MLBN today.

[thewupk]

FWIW, Simmons was the best SS in baseball according to WAR last year.

I think it was 6.2 or 6.4

Hanley was 2nd, Tulo was 3rd.

This was on MLBN today.

According to baseball ref he was. 6.8 WAR last year.

[zitothebrave]

I think that's something to come down actually as he matures as a hitter. Even if he doesn't it's not impossible for him to have a 300is BABIP as he showed briefly in 2012.

It will be damned hard with 10% of his balls being homers or auto outs. That would mean he'd have to hit a lot more LDs than he has. Maybe his swing will change but it's not 2 seasons in and his IFFB has remained pretty constant.

[thewupk]

It will be damned hard with 10% of his balls being homers or auto outs. That would mean he'd have to hit a lot more LDs than he has. Maybe his swing will change but it's not 2 seasons in and his IFFB has remained pretty constant.


Yeah. But he also hit more flyballs then groudballs from the two seasons. 12% more. Yeah that did make his homerun total jump some but it caused his BABIP to take a dump in the process.

[zitothebrave]

Yeah. But he also hit more flyballs then groudballs from the two seasons. 12% more. Yeah that did make his homerun total jump some but it caused his BABIP to take a dump in the process.

Yes but his IFFB stayed the same.

SSS reigned in 2012.

According to B-Ref his BABIP on GB/LD/FB in 2012 was .265/.909/.051 the league average was .238/.707/.135. So he was lucky on both GB and LD and unlucky on FB. That isn't a shock though since he had 7 IFFB. In 2013, his BABIP was .183/.598/.093 compared to the league average of .236/.649/.111 if he bumped up to league average in all those splits, excet FB (he's about where he belongs there maybe a little high) he would have added 17 hits, it would pull his BABIP up to .276. NOt .300. He has to cut down on his IFFB% and add more LDs or GBs to have a shot.

[NinersSBChamps]

For all you stat folks out there, MLBN said according to percentages or something...Simba could be two or three times better than anyone else in the field.

[Mrs. Meta]

Garret Anderson in left.

Your thanks to thanked post ratio is incorrigible! :Sad:

[thewupk]

Yes but his IFFB stayed the same.

SSS reigned in 2012.

According to B-Ref his BABIP on GB/LD/FB in 2012 was .265/.909/.051 the league average was .238/.707/.135. So he was lucky on both GB and LD and unlucky on FB. That isn't a shock though since he had 7 IFFB. In 2013, his BABIP was .183/.598/.093 compared to the league average of .236/.649/.111 if he bumped up to league average in all those splits, excet FB (he's about where he belongs there maybe a little high) he would have added 17 hits, it would pull his BABIP up to .276. NOt .300. He has to cut down on his IFFB% and add more LDs or GBs to have a shot.

He had a 310 BABIP in 2013 with a lower LD%. Anything is possible.

[zitothebrave]

He had a 310 BABIP in 2013 with a lower LD%. Anything is possible.

As I pointed out, he was lucky, he should have had a few less hits in 2012 based on league average. I pointed to about where he should have been in 2013, which would be in the .280 range which I think is fair for him. Because of his IFFB% you can't just do the .120 like you normally do.

[Carp]

C: Bench
1B: Hernandez
2B: ??
SS: Simmons
3B: Robinson (maybe machado one day)
LF: ?
RF: Clemente
CF: Druw

Who are the question marks?



2B: Rey Sanchez

[GovClintonTyree]

2B Alomar or Joe Morgan (for all you kids out there, he was a hell of a lot more fun to watch play 2B than listen to as an announcer).

LF - F€^% it, defense doesn't matter. Greg Luzinski. Evan Gattis, maybe.

Also, Mike Schmidt should be in the conversation at 3B.

[Gary82]

I am happy.

[AUTiger7222]

2B: Rey Sanchez

Didn't Sanchez mainly only play SS?

[AUTiger7222]

2B Alomar or Joe Morgan (for all you kids out there, he was a hell of a lot more fun to watch play 2B than listen to as an announcer).

LF - F€^% it, defense doesn't matter. Greg Luzinski. Evan Gattis, maybe.

Also, Mike Schmidt should be in the conversation at 3B.

LF defense doesn't matter? Tell Kris Medlen that.

[Orphan Black]

Sounds like everyone giving the deal the thumbs up from the Braves' prospective.

[Carp]

Didn't Sanchez mainly only play SS?

Semantics

[zitothebrave]

2B Alomar or Joe Morgan (for all you kids out there, he was a hell of a lot more fun to watch play 2B than listen to as an announcer).

LF - F€^% it, defense doesn't matter. Greg Luzinski. Evan Gattis, maybe.

Also, Mike Schmidt should be in the conversation at 3B.

Schmidt is an all-time great, but Brooks was on another level. For careers right now, you have 3 guys who just outclass the competition, Brooks, Ozzie and Druw. That's not to downplay the ability of others, they were just transcendent defenders.

[zitothebrave]

OT Fun Factoid. According to fangraphs defensive numbers, Jason is already one of the 15 best defenders in RF. Including guys who didn't primarily play RF like Franklin Gutierrez. Fun Factoid number 2, in the UZR era, Jason is the second highest qualified RF Ichiro is the only one higher than him with about double the runs saved in 3 times the innings.

[GovClintonTyree]

LF defense doesn't matter? Tell Kris Medlen that.

Kidding. Not sure which way I'd go, f'real. Bonds had a popcorn arm. Maybe Rickey?

[AUTiger7222]

Kidding. Not sure which way I'd go, f'real. Bonds had a popcorn arm. Maybe Rickey?

Yeah, probably Rickey.

[GovClintonTyree]

Schmidt is an all-time great, but Brooks was on another level. For careers right now, you have 3 guys who just outclass the competition, Brooks, Ozzie and Druw. That's not to downplay the ability of others, they were just transcendent defenders.

I saw Brooks and do not feel that he was transcendent. He was the best, but Schmidt was terrific, too. At short, I think Omar Vizquel was better than Ozzie. Slick as Ozzie was, he never had a great arm, and toward the end it was below average. Viz had a gun. Less flash, made all the plays Ozzie made and a few more deep in the hole. Simmons is better than both. But it's only been a year.

I'm with you on Andruw Jones. I was sitting right above him for his best Spider-Man catch.

[Heyward]

Sounds like everyone giving the deal the thumbs up from the Braves' prospective.

Given the insane inflation in contracts these days, it's pretty much a steal.

[KB21]

Simmons and Peraza the future SS/2B double play combo for the Braves?

[nsacpi]

Simmons and Peraza the future SS/2B double play combo for the Braves?

Good chance. Depends on whether La Stella or Pastornicky can hold down second.

With his speed and arm, Peraza can play a lot of different positions.

[sturg33]

Still can't figure out why people think Pastornicky can ever be a productive starter

[Julio3000]

How much am I smiling about this one?

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/Julio-Franco_zpsaae580e1.jpg

Yeah, that's about right.

[emk418]

Still can't figure out why people think Pastornicky can ever be a productive starter

I don't think it will happen here because of La Stella and Peraza but I do think Pastornicky could become a solid everyday 2B.

[Russ2dollas]

Love this contract.

Cost certainty.

His D helps us in regards to signing (draft, FA, etc) pitchers and 3rd baseman. With Simmons we can afford to go for a little more bat over D at 3B. Also a little more bat over arm in LF and CF.

I hope that getting paid means that he won't try too hard for the traditional hit stats to make money (HR). We need some high OBP guys. I'd love to see him walk more and hit for avg over power.

This has got to help us in the international market (Tehran too). Shows if you pick the braves and perform that they'll pay you and pay you early.

[AUTiger7222]

I don't think it will happen here because of La Stella and Peraza but I do think Pastornicky could become a solid everyday 2B.

Agreed. I'm not crazy about Rev's defense but I think he will hit.

[Braves1976]

Agreed. I'm not crazy about Rev's defense but I think he will hit.

If he hits he could be a better option at second than La Stella in the future. Pastornicky's defense is only a problem at short (and much of that is due to his arm). He actually has been good defensively at second, he should have a positive DRS there (and does so far at 1 DRS in only 43 Major league innings). He has played a lot more of second in the minors and I liked what I saw. I've never liked him at short though, he is a really bad shortstop. He doesn't really have the arm for short, IMO. Further, La Stella should hit in the Majors but I doubt he's even as good at second defensively as Pastornicky.

That said, I expect Peraza to be better than both once he's ready. Peraza and Simmons should make a great double play combo.

[AUTiger7222]

If he hits he could be a better option at second than La Stella in the future. Pastornicky's defense is only a problem at short (and much of that is due to his arm). He actually has been good defensively at second, he should have a positive DRS there (and does so far at 1 DRS in only 43 Major league innings). He has played a lot more of second in the minors and I liked what I saw. I've never liked him at short though, he is a really bad shortstop. He doesn't really have the arm for short, IMO. Further, La Stella should hit in the Majors but I doubt he's even as good at second defensively as Pastornicky.

That said, I expect Peraza to be better than both once he's ready. Peraza and Simmons should make a great double play combo.

I don't know anything about Peraza. But I wish like hell TLS was the Braves opening day 2nd baseman this year.

[zitothebrave]

I don't know anything about Peraza. But I wish like hell TLS was the Braves opening day 2nd baseman this year.

Peraza is highly toolsy. That said, he's gonna be 20 and has some offensive potential. Really skill set similar to Simmons. Great defense. Doesn't walk much and Ks at a pretty low rate. His power isn't there but yuo can hope it develpps.

[Tapate50]

I don't know anything about Peraza. But I wish like hell TLS was the Braves opening day 2nd baseman this year.
I'm starting to get the impression the FO isn't nearly as high on TLS as some here are. I'd love to see him make the club out of spring but i doubt it. He destined for Gwinnett if not?

[AUTiger7222]

I'm starting to get the impression the FO isn't nearly as high on TLS as some here are. I'd love to see him make the club out of spring but i doubt it. He destined for Gwinnett if not?

I would figure they would start him out at Gwinnett. He's got nothing left to prove at Mississippi.

[Hawk]

I'm starting to get the impression the FO isn't nearly as high on TLS as some here are. I'd love to see him make the club out of spring but i doubt it. He destined for Gwinnett if not?

Most of the people unabashedly high on LaStella will reluctantly admit to never having seen him play, which is a thought worth pondering.

I think LaStella's position within the organization is parallel to what Mark DeRosa's was ... he's at the top of the pecking order but is probably only going to get a shot (this season) if there's an injury or demotion. That's not a reflection of his talent, but rather the way the organization has traditionally handled players that are in the same type of flux as TLS.

[zitothebrave]

Most of the people unabashedly high on LaStella will reluctantly admit to never having seen him play, which is a thought worth pondering.

I think LaStella's position within the organization is parallel to what Mark DeRosa's was ... he's at the top of the pecking order but is probably only going to get a shot (this season) if there's an injury or demotion. That's not a reflection of his talent, but the way the organization has traditionally handled players that are in the same type of flux as TLS.

I've seen him play. More than once as well.

The thing with Tommy is that he's not gonna blow anyone away with any particular skillset. I think Chris Johnson is similar, except TLS has a way better eye which is why he walks more and Ks less.

Because he doesn't have anything that pops, like power, speed or glove, the Braves are content to see if they have anything with Uggla. Uggla has insane power if he starts hitting again the Braves have a great 2B. They're gonna rule that out before bringing up TLS. TLS has no rush to get to the majors in all honesty.

[Hawk]

TLS has no rush to get to the majors in all honesty.

Well, LaStella is not exactly a spring chicken -- especially if he spends another full season at AAA while the Braves give Uggla a few more spins in the wheel. Plus, what more does he really have to prove in the minors, except perhaps becoming a better defender (some say he's adequate enough as it is -- I haven't seen him play regularly in a year).

If the Braves are indeed players for Aledmys Diaz I think we have a strong indication on how the organization intends on utilizing TLS.

The whole situation is unfortunate, because I think he's got more by the way of skills than Pastornicky had when Atlanta handed him a middle-infield position a few years ago.

[zitothebrave]

Well, LaStella is not exactly a spring chicken -- especially if he spends another full season at AAA while the Braves give Uggla a few more spins in the wheel. Plus, what more does he really have to prove in the minors, except perhaps becoming a better defender (some say he's adequate enough as it is -- I haven't seen him play regularly in a year).

If the Braves are indeed players for Aledmys Diaz I think we have a strong indication on how the organization intends on utilizing TLS.

The whole situation is unfortunate, because I think he's got more by the way of skills than Pastornicky had when Atlanta handed him a middle-infield position a few years ago.

He's not young, but he has all kinds of service time before being needed on the 40 so being patient with our 2B options can let us sort out who to get rid of.

Uggla hits then we won't need to worry about TLS. If he doesn't we have TLS ready to step in.

Also as far as Diaz, I see him as more of a replacement for Johnson. I think Peraza is our long term 2B. Even if Diaz starts at 2B in 2014 I think he's long termed to 3B. JMO. Though I think if we sign him he'll spend the year in AAA bulking up and learning 3B. Speculation on my behalf of course, but considering the report on him is basically "raw" I doubt he starts the year in the majors or even sees the majors before July.

[Tapate50]

Well, LaStella is not exactly a spring chicken -- especially if he spends another full season at AAA while the Braves give Uggla a few more spins in the wheel. Plus, what more does he really have to prove in the minors, except perhaps becoming a better defender (some say he's adequate enough as it is -- I haven't seen him play regularly in a year).

If the Braves are indeed players for Aledmys Diaz I think we have a strong indication on how the organization intends on utilizing TLS.
The whole situation is unfortunate, because I think he's got more by the way of skills than Pastornicky had when Atlanta handed him a middle-infield position a few years ago.

I had this thought as well. Or even just a back up back up plan...

[KB21]

Interesting. ZiPS projections for Dan Uggla:

.218/.321/.407/.728, 104 wRC+, 23 HR with 560 plate appearances.

[AerchAngel]

Interesting. ZiPS projections for Dan Uggla:

.218/.321/.407/.728, 104 wRC+, 23 HR with 560 plate appearances.

That would be great for a 2B. Now if he can get that I would be ecstatic.

[Knucksie]

Most of the people unabashedly high on LaStella will reluctantly admit to never having seen him play, which is a thought worth pondering.


It's that, plus the overreaction to the Uggla situation. Hence, La Stella's potential upside gets exaggerated as the new savior.

[Dalyn]

That would be great for a 2B. Now if he can get that I would be ecstatic.

NOW we would all be ecstatic. Uggla beat those numbers his first two years and ended up getting cut from the playoffs.

[KB21]

ZiPS has Uggla projected at 1.4 WAR and BJ Upton projected at 2.1 WAR for 2014.

Knowing what we got last year from them, would you take that this year? Obviously, it doesn't match their contract status, but they won't be a negative impact. I think they have BJ projected to have 21 home runs and 23 stolen bases.

[Hawk]

@JonHeymanCBS: asked ozzie smith the 3 greatest SS he's seen. he mentioned omar vizquel, elvis andrus & andrelton simmons. @MLBNetwork
[ http://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/438327669479202816 ]

High praise.

[thethe]

ZiPS has Uggla projected at 1.4 WAR and BJ Upton projected at 2.1 WAR for 2014.

Knowing what we got last year from them, would you take that this year? Obviously, it doesn't match their contract status, but they won't be a negative impact. I think they have BJ projected to have 21 home runs and 23 stolen bases.

I think Uggla is an absolute lost cause but I do believe BJ will have a solid unspectacular year. Braves just need to move on from Uggla.

[KB21]

@JonHeymanCBS: asked ozzie smith the 3 greatest SS he's seen. he mentioned omar vizquel, elvis andrus & andrelton simmons. @MLBNetwork
[ http://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/438327669479202816 ]

High praise.

That Texiera trade just keeps looking worse and worse.

[MadduxFanII]

ZiPS has Uggla projected at 1.4 WAR and BJ Upton projected at 2.1 WAR for 2014.

Knowing what we got last year from them, would you take that this year? Obviously, it doesn't match their contract status, but they won't be a negative impact. I think they have BJ projected to have 21 home runs and 23 stolen bases.

I would slaughter a cow and offer its innards to whatever dark god watched over baseball if it meant getting 2.1 WAR, 21 home runs and 23 stolen bases out of BJ Upton.

[thewupk]

That Texiera trade just keeps looking worse and worse.

It's done and over with. There is little chance the team would have kept Andrus long term with Simmons right behind him.

[benchguy]

Get a life that was a while back, the future is now..



That Texiera trade just keeps looking worse and worse.

[nsacpi]

ZiPS has Uggla projected at 1.4 WAR and BJ Upton projected at 2.1 WAR for 2014.



I would settle for one of them being half-way productive. We survived having two black holes in the lineup last year. Don't want to test the team's ability to do that again.

[Heyward]

That Texiera trade just keeps looking worse and worse.

How?

Outside of Andrus, who on there did we really lose that hurts, though an Andrus/Simmons combo up the middle would be insane defensively.

Feliz is a RP.

Thats about it.

Not even sure we'd have Simmons if Andrus stayed.

The Wainwright trade hurts more than Tex, tbh.

[JCarbo76]

How?

Outside of Andrus, who on there did we really lose that hurts, though an Andrus/Simmons combo up the middle would be insane defensively.

Feliz is a RP.

Thats about it.

Not even sure we'd have Simmons if Andrus stayed.

The Wainwright trade hurts more than Tex, tbh.

Yeah for all the moaning about the Teixeira trade, someone once did a post-Tex trade WAR analysis comparing the players we lost to the players we had instead. Interestingly, the guys we had in place here had a higher cumulative WAR than the guys we traded.

[AUTiger7222]

Yeah for all the moaning about the Teixeira trade, someone once did a post-Tex trade WAR analysis comparing the players we lost to the players we had instead. Interestingly, the guys we had in place here had a higher cumulative WAR than the guys we traded.

It sure would have been nice to have Matt Harrison in the rotation over Jo-Jo Reyes who was the Rangers first choice there.

[Heyward]

It sure would have been nice to have Matt Harrison in the rotation over Jo-Jo Reyes who was the Rangers first choice there.

He has back problems right now, he's good,yes, but nothing more than a #2-3 type starter which we produce many of.

The Tex trade is hardly one of the worst trades in all of sports the way some make it seem.

[AUTiger7222]

He has back problems right now, he's good,yes, but nothing more than a #2-3 type starter which we produce many of.

The Tex trade is hardly one of the worst trades in all of sports the way some make it seem.

Agreed.

[GovClintonTyree]

I've seen him play. More than once as well.

The thing with Tommy is that he's not gonna blow anyone away with any particular skillset. I think Chris Johnson is similar, except TLS has a way better eye which is why he walks more and Ks less.

Because he doesn't have anything that pops, like power, speed or glove, the Braves are content to see if they have anything with Uggla. Uggla has insane power if he starts hitting again the Braves have a great 2B. They're gonna rule that out before bringing up TLS. TLS has no rush to get to the majors in all honesty.

I'm not a stathead, but I think his BB/K and OBP pop.

On a team that has plenty of power, I'd like to see if his skillset complements the rest of the roster like I think it would. Then we wouldn't have to lead off a 6'6", 245 lb run producer.

[GovClintonTyree]

He has back problems right now, he's good,yes, but nothing more than a #2-3 type starter which we produce many of.

The Tex trade is hardly one of the worst trades in all of sports the way some make it seem.

I've long moved on, but yeah, kind of it was.

[zitothebrave]

He has back problems right now, he's good,yes, but nothing more than a #2-3 type starter which we produce many of.

The Tex trade is hardly one of the worst trades in all of sports the way some make it seem.

It was absolutely one of the worst trades of all time.

Prospects falling out hurt. But all those guys peak rankings on BA's top 100

Felix - 9
Salty - 18 (was 36 when traded though)
Harrison - 90
Andrus - 19

So we traded 3 guys who were or became at one point top 20 prospects. It would have been almost akin to making a trade in 2010 with Heyward, Freeman, Hanson, and Julio. Obviously the latter package held more value with 3 top 10 prospects, but just so you have a reference to how highly regarded those guys were or how talented (in the case of Feliz)

While sure some of them didn't pan out. THere are 2 ways to look at it about how screwed we got. We got 6.1 rWAR out of Tex, Texas got a combined 33.8 rWAR from the prospects we traded them, and still counting since all but Salty are still there. THe other way we got boned was we could have had all those guys for trade bait. Imagine if you would having Andrus, and being able to include Escobar to get Peavy or being able to make an offer similar to the value as to what Detroit gave up for Miggy, or any number of other potential trades we could have made instead of the Teixeria trade which was a horrible trade. Anyone who thinks it wasn't one of the worst trades ever is a fool. Set the Franchise backa few years by gutting the minors. We were lucky enough to have gotten Jason and Freddie when we did to rebuild it.

[Heyward]

It was absolutely one of the worst trades of all time.

Prospects falling out hurt. But all those guys peak rankings on BA's top 100

Felix - 9
Salty - 18 (was 36 when traded though)
Harrison - 90
Andrus - 19

So we traded 3 guys who were or became at one point top 20 prospects. It would have been almost akin to making a trade in 2010 with Heyward, Freeman, Hanson, and Julio. Obviously the latter package held more value with 3 top 10 prospects, but just so you have a reference to how highly regarded those guys were or how talented (in the case of Feliz)

While sure some of them didn't pan out. THere are 2 ways to look at it about how screwed we got. We got 6.1 rWAR out of Tex, Texas got a combined 33.8 rWAR from the prospects we traded them, and still counting since all but Salty are still there. THe other way we got boned was we could have had all those guys for trade bait. Imagine if you would having Andrus, and being able to include Escobar to get Peavy or being able to make an offer similar to the value as to what Detroit gave up for Miggy, or any number of other potential trades we could have made instead of the Teixeria trade which was a horrible trade. Anyone who thinks it wasn't one of the worst trades ever is a fool. Set the Franchise backa few years by gutting the minors. We were lucky enough to have gotten Jason and Freddie when we did to rebuild it.

:facepalm:

[cajunrevenge]

That Texiera trade just keeps looking worse and worse.

I dont think the Rangers or Braves were winners in this trade. Salty was meh. Andrus got way over paid. Harrison got a big contract and hasnt been healthy since. Feliz never made it as a starter and then went down to TJ surgery. The real winner here were the Angels because they drafted Mike Trout with the compensation pick for Teixeira. This trade was the single best trade in Angels history and they werent even involved.

[cajunrevenge]

I would slaughter a cow and offer its innards to whatever dark god watched over baseball if it meant getting 2.1 WAR, 21 home runs and 23 stolen bases out of BJ Upton.

What it doesnt mention is that 12 of those homers and steals occur in 1 month and the rest of the season he only has 9 homers and 11 stolen bases. I think its best we set the bar low and start with just hoping BJ can hit over .200 this time around.

[keithlaw]

:facepalm:

lulz generally people judge trades based on either the process or the results, but leave it to zito to judge it by the retarded bastard of the two

[zitothebrave]

lulz generally people judge trades based on either the process or the results, but leave it to zito to judge it by the retarded bastard of the two

I actually showed both sides as to why it's bad. I can show a few others as well. We got badly fleeced in that trade.

[Heyward]

I actually showed both sides as to why it's bad. I can show a few others as well. We got badly fleeced in that trade.

No, we didnt.

Salty was expendable with Mac.

Andrus got way overpaid, and we dont have Simmons if we have Andrus, gimme Simba.

Harrison is a solid P but has back problems, not as if hes Kershaw.

Feliz started out good but he's pretty much a 8th-9th inning guy which we punch out every year.

cajun said it best, Angels made out best since they got the best player in baseball with the Tex pick.

[zitothebrave]

Again.

Could have traded Salty for someone else. Or could have traded Mac for someone.

Andrus was really cheap for a long time. We could have used Escobar then traded him before his collapse, then trade Andrus when Simmons was ready.

Harrison I could care less about losing. If we lost one of Salty or Andrus, with Harrison and Beau Jones fo rTex then fine I wouldn't have been too upset.

Feliz again, could have been moved for someone.

As I clearly pointed out, for Texas they gained 33.8 rWAR from the trade, we gained 6.1. Not even close.

Texas made out, Anaheim made out. We got boned on both ends.

That said, Anaheim saying they got Trout with the pick for losing tex is a half truth. The truth is they had 2 picks back to back and we don't know if they pass on Trout and take Grichuk or they still take Trout.

[AUTiger7222]

You'll never convince me or anyone that the Tex trade was worse than the Drew trade.

[zitothebrave]

You'll never convince me or anyone that the Tex trade was worse than the Drew trade.

Well

Waino's rWAR pre-FA was 19.1 his total is 26.4 if you include his FA years.

Add in Marquis's 1.5 and burger king's 1.9 you have a grand total pre-FA of 22.5, grand total 29.9 including the last 2 years of Waino which odds are we wouldn't have had the money to keep.

Drew and Marrerro gave us 8.3 leaving a WAR deficiency of either 14.2 or if you imagine we could have kept Waino 21.6

As discussed in the Tex trade Tex has gained 33.8 we gained 6.9 (forgot Mahay) meaning we're at a WAR deficiency of 26.9. Who knows where it will go long term.

ALso we won with JD Drew. without Drew we miss the playoffs. Teixeira did nothing for us.

[Heyward]

Well

Waino's rWAR pre-FA was 19.1 his total is 26.4 if you include his FA years.

Add in Marquis's 1.5 and burger king's 1.9 you have a grand total pre-FA of 22.5, grand total 29.9 including the last 2 years of Waino which odds are we wouldn't have had the money to keep.

Drew and Marrerro gave us 8.3 leaving a WAR deficiency of either 14.2 or if you imagine we could have kept Waino 21.6

As discussed in the Tex trade Tex has gained 33.8 we gained 6.9 (forgot Mahay) meaning we're at a WAR deficiency of 26.9. Who knows where it will go long term.

ALso we won with JD Drew. without Drew we miss the playoffs. Teixeira did nothing for us.

Better question.

Would you rather have Waino now or Tex.

A legit ace which Waino is what we are missing on our team to go over the hump.

[zitothebrave]

Better question.

Would you rather have Waino now or Tex.

A legit ace which Waino is what we are missing on our team to go over the hump.
I think you typed better instead of irrelevant on accident

[yeezus]

The Tex trade was pretty bad. Never mind that there's no "stud" we traded, but the values of those guys were high and we, in the end, really got nothing out of it. If multiple deals like that happen, your franchise is screwed.

[zitothebrave]

The Tex trade was pretty bad. Never mind that there's no "stud" we traded, but the values of those guys were high and we, in the end, really got nothing out of it. If multiple deals like that happen, your franchise is screwed.

We were pretty screwed by that trade as it was.

2008 Braves finished 72-90 and 2009 finished 86-76, you can't help but wonder if we would have been better with one or more of those guys. If we had Feliz and Harrison in the high minors (or majors) with TOmmy along the way maybe we don't make the Lowe and Kawakami signings. So on so forth.

Part of the problem with speculating on a trade retrospectively is you don't know what having those assets would have brought you otherwise. Some big names that were traded in 07, 08 or 09, Josh Hamilton, Dan Haren, Miguel Cabrera, Carlos Quentin, Nick Swisher, Matt Holliday, Adam Dunn, CC Sabathia, Roy Halladay, Curtis Granderson, JJ Hardy, Cliff Lee, so on so forth. there were many other places we could have made moves. Of course there is potential bad as well. The year Kelly struggled we may have seen Andrus play 2B, not Prado and we may not have gotten Prado's great contributions and he may not have been able to net us J-Up.

Part of the problem with revisionist history is just that, you look bad no matter what. You can make a trade that doesn't make a lick of sense at the time and it looks better over time because of stuff shaking out. The McLouth trade would be a perfect example of that. We traded mostly spare parts for McLouth, and he stank here. So it looks better for Pitt because of him stinking. Though there was no guarantee of that happening when he was traded.

[thethe]

There should be a gag order on discussing the damn Teix trade. YES IT WAS HORRIBLE. I'm still loving the young team that we have now though.

[JCarbo76]

Well

Waino's rWAR pre-FA was 19.1 his total is 26.4 if you include his FA years.

Add in Marquis's 1.5 and burger king's 1.9 you have a grand total pre-FA of 22.5, grand total 29.9 including the last 2 years of Waino which odds are we wouldn't have had the money to keep.

Drew and Marrerro gave us 8.3 leaving a WAR deficiency of either 14.2 or if you imagine we could have kept Waino 21.6

As discussed in the Tex trade Tex has gained 33.8 we gained 6.9 (forgot Mahay) meaning we're at a WAR deficiency of 26.9. Who knows where it will go long term.

ALso we won with JD Drew. without Drew we miss the playoffs. Teixeira did nothing for us.

This post misses several key points. First, when the Teixeira trade was made the Braves were 3.5 games out of first place 2/3 of the way through the 2007 season, despite having a 1B (Scott Thorman) who posted a WAR of -0.9. The Braves knew there was a risk that the players they dealt might one day be productive ML players, but except for Salty, none were ready to contribute in July of 2007. To say we got nothing out of Teixeira is simply not correct. For the last third of 2007 he put up a WAR of 2.0, and as you pointed out, posted a WAR of 6.1 in his 157 games as a Brave. Unfortunately, the Braves pitching nosedived in August, 2007 and despite the marked (pun intended) improvement at 1B, finished 5 games behind.

You mention the 33.8 WAR of the guys who we traded, but you fail to mention the WAR of the guys who were left behind in their positions.

Had he stayed with Atlanta, Salty never would have been more than a backup behind McCann. Since the trade, Corky Miller, David Ross, and Gerald Laird have combined for almost exactly the same WAR as has Salty, despite fewer games and PAs. Harrison had two very good seasons in Texas (2011 and 2012) but had a negative WAR in 08, 09, 10, and 13. Feliz was a good set-up man in 09, and a good closer in 10 and 11, but the guys we had in those years (EOF, Wagner and Kimbrell) were better. For some inexplicable reason the Rangers thought he would be a good starter in 2012, but only lasted 8 games before he was injured, and was a non-factor in 2013.

Andrus has put up a WAR of 17.1 since he hit the majors in 09, but our SS in that time period have put up a WAR of 16.8, and that included our dreadful SS WAR season of 2012, when Simmons went out injured after 44 games, after he replaced Pastor, and was replaced by Janish, both of whom had negative WARs. If you include the second half of 2007 and 2008, when Elvis was still in the minors, our SS WAR has exceeded theirs since the trade (Esco had a post-trade prorated WAR of 0.8 WAR in 07 and a 3.5 WAR in 08). Point is, that but for the first third of 2012, with Pastor and the last third of 2012 with Janish, we have had better SS play than the Rangers have had with Andrus.

Yes, we could have held our cards and not made the Tex trade, and maybe played those cards in different trades, but the guys we traded were 100% expendable, both in July 2007 and now. You trade from positions of strength to fill weaknesses. That's exactly what the Braves did. We got what we paid for in the trade, great 1B production that we sorely lacked in the first 2/3 of 2007.

The Tex trade was a classic trade of selling future assets that may or may not have panned out in return for a known asset who filled an immediate and glaring need.

While I would never call it a "good" trade for the Braves, it is far from the disaster everyone paints it.

[zitothebrave]

This post misses several key points. First, when the Teixeira trade was made the Braves were 3.5 games out of first place 2/3 of the way through the 2007 season, despite having a 1B (Scott Thorman) who posted a WAR of -0.9. The Braves knew there was a risk that the players they dealt might one day be productive ML players, but except for Salty, none were ready to contribute in July of 2007. To say we got nothing out of Teixeira is simply not correct. For the last third of 2007 he put up a WAR of 2.0, and as you pointed out, posted a WAR of 6.1 in his 157 games as a Brave. Unfortunately, the Braves pitching nosedived in August, 2007 and despite the marked (pun intended) improvement at 1B, finished 5 games behind.

You mention the 33.8 WAR of the guys who we traded, but you fail to mention the WAR of the guys who were left behind in their positions.

Had he stayed with Atlanta, Salty never would have been more than a backup behind McCann. Since the trade, Corky Miller, David Ross, and Gerald Laird have combined for almost exactly the same WAR as has Salty, despite fewer games and PAs. Harrison had two very good seasons in Texas (2011 and 2012) but had a negative WAR in 08, 09, 10, and 13. Feliz was a good set-up man in 08, and a good closer in 10 and 11, but the guys we had in those years (EOF, Wagner and Kimbrell) were better. For some inexplicable reason the Rangers thought he would be a good starter in 2012, but only last 8 games before he was injured, and was a non-factor in 2013.

Andrus has put up a WAR of 17.1 since he hit the majors in 09, but our SS in that time period have put up a WAR of 16.8, and that included our dreadful SS WAR season of 2012, when Simmons went out injured after 44 games, after he replaced Pastor, and was replaced by Janish, both of whom had negative WARs. If you include the second half of 2007 and 2008, when Elvis was still in the minors, our SS WAR has exceeded theirs since the trade (Esco had a post-trade prorated WAR of 0.8 WAR in 07 and a 3.5 WAR in 08. Point is, that but for the first third of 2012, with Pastor and the last third of 2012 with Janish, we have had better SS play than the Rangers have had with Andrus.

Yes, we could have held our cards and not made the Tex trade, and maybe played those cards in different trades, but the guys we traded were 100% expendable, both in July 2007 and now. You trade from positions of strength to fill weaknesses. That's exactly what the Braves did. We got what we paid for in the trade, great 1B production that we sorely lacked in the first 2/3 of 2007.

The Tex trade was a classic trade of selling future assets that may or may not have panned out in return for a known asset who filled an immediate and glaring need.

While I would never call it a "good" trade for the Braves, it is far from the disaster everyone paints it.

So a bulleted response here.

1. Factoring in the guys we have/had plays a part, but it doesn't reflect what value we gave up vs received. You should almost always be at a negative value when you make a trade like the Teixeira trade. Because you're trading multiple players for one who's only under control for a short time. The WAR deficit shouldn't be that bad though. through all those players FA years. We traded 4 major league regulars for 1 and a half years of a superstar, that's a bad trade. Those regulars could have been split up to other trades, or started for us. I point to again the Peavy deal, the Peavy deal fell through because he didn't want to come to Atlanta if we gave up Escobar, but if we had top prospect Elvis Andrus in the wings we may have been able to get him. That alone would have averted the disasterous Lowe signing.

2. We were not that far behind, but our rotation outside of Huddy and Smoltz was garbage. When you compared us to the Phillies or MEts you could see we didn't compare to the 2. Instead of getting a 1B (which was a need) the Braves could have made a move for a number of pitchers but chose to instead blow their budget on a hitter. Who was great for the Braves and a certain improvement over Thorman. But the Braves had much bigger issues.

[JCarbo76]

So a bulleted response here.

1. Factoring in the guys we have/had plays a part, but it doesn't reflect what value we gave up vs received. You should almost always be at a negative value when you make a trade like the Teixeira trade. Because you're trading multiple players for one who's only under control for a short time. The WAR deficit shouldn't be that bad though. through all those players FA years. We traded 4 major league regulars for 1 and a half years of a superstar, that's a bad trade. Those regulars could have been split up to other trades, or started for us. I point to again the Peavy deal, the Peavy deal fell through because he didn't want to come to Atlanta if we gave up Escobar, but if we had top prospect Elvis Andrus in the wings we may have been able to get him. That alone would have averted the disasterous Lowe signing.

2. We were not that far behind, but our rotation outside of Huddy and Smoltz was garbage. When you compared us to the Phillies or MEts you could see we didn't compare to the 2. Instead of getting a 1B (which was a need) the Braves could have made a move for a number of pitchers but chose to instead blow their budget on a hitter. Who was great for the Braves and a certain improvement over Thorman. But the Braves had much bigger issues.


In theory that is a good point, but there is hole or two in your analysis. Chuck James had pitched pretty well for the Braves through July, 2007, posting an ERA of about 3.7 in 22 starts through that point. In fact he had a very good July. However, in early August he was obviously injured, making only three starts for that month with an ERA of over 8, before missing the last two weeks of the month. He did come back in September and was so-so in 5 starts. HIs WAR of the season was 1.8, and was probably at a 2.0 or so, through July. So I guess had the Braves been clairvoyant and seen that he would go into the tank immediately after the Tex trade, I guess you have a point. The other two starters were pretty much ineffective in August and Septemebr, although Buddy Carlyle was semi-decent, and better certainly than Jo-Jo.

Was there a pitcher or two on the market who were available and who would have given us the net 3.0 WAR bump that Teixeira gave us over the last two months of 2007? I'm not sure of that. We did trade Kyle Davies and his 6+ERA and -0.9 WAR to the Royals for Octavio Dotel the same day as the Tex trade to shore up the staff, although Dotel gave us mixed results.

[The Chosen One]

I remember kyle Davies' start in Boston his debut... and his game against the mets where he dominated for like 8 innings... what a waste.

Also remember Chuck James just knowing how to pitch. Nothing overwhelming just knew how to pitch. Shame the injuries got to him

[Tapate50]

So a bulleted response here.

1. Factoring in the guys we have/had plays a part, but it doesn't reflect what value we gave up vs received. You should almost always be at a negative value when you make a trade like the Teixeira trade. Because you're trading multiple players for one who's only under control for a short time. The WAR deficit shouldn't be that bad though. through all those players FA years. We traded 4 major league regulars for 1 and a half years of a superstar, that's a bad trade. Those regulars could have been split up to other trades, or started for us. I point to again the Peavy deal, the Peavy deal fell through because he didn't want to come to Atlanta if we gave up Escobar, but if we had top prospect Elvis Andrus in the wings we may have been able to get him. That alone would have averted the disasterous Lowe signing.

2. We were not that far behind, but our rotation outside of Huddy and Smoltz was garbage. When you compared us to the Phillies or MEts you could see we didn't compare to the 2. Instead of getting a 1B (which was a need) the Braves could have made a move for a number of pitchers but chose to instead blow their budget on a hitter. Who was great for the Braves and a certain improvement over Thorman. But the Braves had much bigger issues.

I always felt like we got lucky and dodged the Peavy bullet. I don't know why, but always felt like that was a great non trade. Was he a better option than Lowe?

[Orphan Black]

Jcarbo...it is pointless to have a logical discussion with zito...his logic is that he's always right (which really is almost never the case)...really good post on the Tex trade...I would never say the Braves won that trade either, but I also do not believe it was the disaster people make it out to be.

[chopdrew]

Wasn't there another trade the same day as the Tex deal that was supposed to net us a sp? I think I'd heard we had Bronson Arroyo all lined up, and then it fell through...

[AUTiger7222]

I remember kyle Davies' start in Boston his debut... and his game against the mets where he dominated for like 8 innings... what a waste.

Also remember Chuck James just knowing how to pitch. Nothing overwhelming just knew how to pitch. Shame the injuries got to him

Kyle Davies was awesome in his debut in 2005 in Boston. It was a cold, dreary day and he showed guts and showed potential to be a bonifide starting pitcher. But aside from consistently dominating against the Mets, he totally blew chunks. I don't know what it was about the Mets though that allowed him to dominate.

[KB21]

It was absolutely one of the worst trades of all time.

Prospects falling out hurt. But all those guys peak rankings on BA's top 100

Felix - 9
Salty - 18 (was 36 when traded though)
Harrison - 90
Andrus - 19

So we traded 3 guys who were or became at one point top 20 prospects. It would have been almost akin to making a trade in 2010 with Heyward, Freeman, Hanson, and Julio. Obviously the latter package held more value with 3 top 10 prospects, but just so you have a reference to how highly regarded those guys were or how talented (in the case of Feliz)

While sure some of them didn't pan out. THere are 2 ways to look at it about how screwed we got. We got 6.1 rWAR out of Tex, Texas got a combined 33.8 rWAR from the prospects we traded them, and still counting since all but Salty are still there. THe other way we got boned was we could have had all those guys for trade bait. Imagine if you would having Andrus, and being able to include Escobar to get Peavy or being able to make an offer similar to the value as to what Detroit gave up for Miggy, or any number of other potential trades we could have made instead of the Teixeria trade which was a horrible trade. Anyone who thinks it wasn't one of the worst trades ever is a fool. Set the Franchise backa few years by gutting the minors. We were lucky enough to have gotten Jason and Freddie when we did to rebuild it.

I agree. The combo of the Wainright for JD Drew trade and the Tex trade really set this franchise back during that time span.

[AUTiger7222]

The Braves offense in 2007, even with as bad as Andruw was doing, was still pretty good before the Tex trade but the Braves struggle to win consistently because of the starting pitching after Smoltz and Hudson. Just think if the Braves had had Wainwright to form a deadly trio. They might have made the playoffs that year and done some damage. That;s one of the reasons the Drew trade was far worse than the Tex trade.

[zitothebrave]

In theory that is a good point, but there is hole or two in your analysis. Chuck James had pitched pretty well for the Braves through July, 2007, posting an ERA of about 3.7 in 22 starts through that point. In fact he had a very good July. However, in early August he was obviously injured, making only three starts for that month with an ERA of over 8, before missing the last two weeks of the month. He did come back in September and was so-so in 5 starts. HIs WAR of the season was 1.8, and was probably at a 2.0 or so, through July. So I guess had the Braves been clairvoyant and seen that he would go into the tank immediately after the Tex trade, I guess you have a point. The other two starters were pretty much ineffective in August and Septemebr, although Buddy Carlyle was semi-decent, and better certainly than Jo-Jo.

Was there a pitcher or two on the market who were available and who would have given us the net 3.0 WAR bump that Teixeira gave us over the last two months of 2007? I'm not sure of that. We did trade Kyle Davies and his 6+ERA and -0.9 WAR to the Royals for Octavio Dotel the same day as the Tex trade to shore up the staff, although Dotel gave us mixed results.

I loved Chuck James back in the day as someone who found him amusing and loved that he got results in the minors. Vut he was smoke and mirrors. His first half ERA was solid, but his FIP clearly painted the picture of a guy who was getting lucky (first half FIP of 5.08) Second half numbers produced the same basic K rate better BB rate and insane homer rate.

As far as starters rumored on the bloc. Jon Garland, Javy Vazquez (with Jermaine Dye if you want to add offense)

No one pitcher would have been better for us than teixeira, though who knows

Some guys traded in the 07 offseason who may have been available include Garza and Haren who may have been had for what we dangled for Tex (never would know)

Bottom line is that we didn't win the division, we traded the whole farm to address one need as well. Teixeira playing the best 2 months of baseball he played has little to do with what the trade sucked so hard. It was clear to most that we needed pitching. We had 2 stars, one of them super old. After that some 4s 5s or worse.

So to answer your Rex question probably not one but maybe we throw Salty to Chicago with some other stuff and get Javy and Garland. And who knows how things shake out from there. What I do know is we had 35 srarts from Buddy Carlyle, Jo Jo Reyes and Mark Redmond, all known turds. James crushed his peripherals to have a modest ERA, Davies was shot (to my dismay) from his injuries. Our closer was Bob Wickman, we had 2 of our most used relievers as Tyler Yates and Oscar Villarreal. If you build a BP of our 7 most used relievers you get (with ERA)

Wickman - 3.92
Moylan - 1.80
Villarreal - 4.24
Raffy - 3.00
Yates 5.18

In the end the terrible trade of that year was trading LaRoche.Would have been a slightly worse team in 2007 with him and without Tex, Mahay and Gonzalez, but it would have kept the farm in tact and we could have made different adjustments. Like imagine we trade for Dan Haren.

We were not gonna win games throwing out Jo-Jo Reyes and Buddy Carlyle, they're total bums. What team wins with bums like them?

[AUTiger7222]

I loved Chuck James back in the day as someone who found him amusing and loved that he got results in the minors. Vut he was smoke and mirrors. His first half ERA was solid, but his FIP clearly painted the picture of a guy who was getting lucky (first half FIP of 5.08) Second half numbers produced the same basic K rate better BB rate and insane homer rate.

As far as starters rumored on the bloc. Jon Garland, Javy Vazquez (with Jermaine Dye if you want to add offense)

No one pitcher would have been better for us than teixeira, though who knows

Some guys traded in the 07 offseason who may have been available include Garza and Haren who may have been had for what we dangled for Tex (never would know)

Bottom line is that we didn't win the division, we traded the whole farm to address one need as well. Teixeira playing the best 2 months of baseball he played has little to do with what the trade sucked so hard. It was clear to most that we needed pitching. We had 2 stars, one of them super old. After that some 4s 5s or worse.

So to answer your Rex question probably not one but maybe we throw Salty to Chicago with some other stuff and get Javy and Garland. And who knows how things shake out from there. What I do know is we had 35 srarts from Buddy Carlyle, Jo Jo Reyes and Mark Redmond, all known turds. James crushed his peripherals to have a modest ERA, Davies was shot (to my dismay) from his injuries. Our closer was Bob Wickman, we had 2 of our most used relievers as Tyler Yates and Oscar Villarreal. If you build a BP of our 7 most used relievers you get (with ERA)

Wickman - 3.92
Moylan - 1.80
Villarreal - 4.24
Raffy - 3.00
Yates 5.18

In the end the terrible trade of that year was trading LaRoche.Would have been a slightly worse team in 2007 with him and without Tex, Mahay and Gonzalez, but it would have kept the farm in tact and we could have made different adjustments. Like imagine we trade for Dan Haren.

We were not gonna win games throwing out Jo-Jo Reyes and Buddy Carlyle, they're total bums. What team wins with bums like them?

All the more reason the Adam Wainwright for J.D. Drew trade was so bad. It set in motion a number of terrible moves that led the the Braves demise and made them enter a 4 or 5 year rebuilding project. Yes without Drew the Braves don't win the division in 2004, but that's more a product of how terrible the NL East was in those years instead of how good the Braves were.

The LaRoche trade was bad because you don't trade a starting position player for a setup man. Especially when the Braves had a major revoling door at 1B and LaRoche had just had a monster 2006 season. That being said, JS couldn't have predicted Mike Gonzalez going down to Tommy John surgery in May of 2007.

You can even go back one step before the Drew trade and say that not keeping Sheffield set in motion that list of terrible trades that led to the Braves demise.

[zitothebrave]

JD Drew was fantastic for his year here, better than what we got out of Tex and we didn't have the system we had before.

I wouldn't have done the trade in retrospect, but I wasn't repulsed by the trade like I was with Tex for 2 main reasons.

1. We only gave up 1 high end prospect, not 3. 2. I thought we had an outside chance of keeping Drew, knew he was gonna sign for a lot but Tex was gonna be a 100+ Million player.

I give JS and Wren some leniency on a bad deal because they made so many great ones, but JS's last trade was horrific, and if he didn't pull the Huddy Heist the end of his tenure as Braves GM would have been way different.

[Millwood1Hitter]

The arrogance of JS at the end of his tenure cost us dearly, starting with the inability to initiate and keep into contact with Sheffield when he hit FA.

After the Maddux/Millwood debacle, in which JS cornered himself into with previous acquisitions, JS was out to prove that he could build competitive teams and keep the streak alive without dealing with agents.

While Drew was phenomenal during his year here, as well as Tex, the thought was that there was a possibility that we'd be able to retain their services because of having local ties to Georgia. When push came to shove, JS and the organization never kept dialogue and even attempt to keep the 2.

And JS also became a reactionist GM. The Gonzalez for Laroche trade was just stupid, since Laroche was our first viable productive 1b since Galarraga, an area that was patched with the likes of Rico Brogna, Ken Caminiti, and finally settling on 93 year old Julio until Laroche came along. But the organization was the only ones that had any faith in Thormon, despite the fact that many scouting services and times I seem him I knew he had major holes in his swing and would struggle against big league pitching. Somehow, though, Thormon left this organization thinking and yearning for Klesko, which he was not.

But back to JS reactionary ways, we had huge problems in the pen, starting with the Reitsma Kolb Wickman days. I'm not going to hash this out in detail because just thinking about it makes me wanna puke. JS stole Soriano from the Ms giving us a viable dominant late inning reliever option. We got our closer, and didn't need Gonzalez, we could have filled the back end of the pen with lesser options which this organization had proven to throughout the years. Instead JS went got rebuilding and reloading the pen and leaving 1b a bigger hole than was in the past which was a precursor to the Tex trade.

[50PoundHead]

All the more reason the Adam Wainwright for J.D. Drew trade was so bad. It set in motion a number of terrible moves that led the the Braves demise and made them enter a 4 or 5 year rebuilding project. Yes without Drew the Braves don't win the division in 2004, but that's more a product of how terrible the NL East was in those years instead of how good the Braves were.

The LaRoche trade was bad because you don't trade a starting position player for a setup man. Especially when the Braves had a major revoling door at 1B and LaRoche had just had a monster 2006 season. That being said, JS couldn't have predicted Mike Gonzalez going down to Tommy John surgery in May of 2007.

You can even go back one step before the Drew trade and say that not keeping Sheffield set in motion that list of terrible trades that led to the Braves demise.

We have a winner. Schuerholz actually pursues Sheffield instead of whining about the economics of baseball and we don't have to make the Drew trade.

PS--Chuck James is reason 1 through 8 as to why minor league numbers can be extremely misleading, especially for non-power pitchers.

[sturg33]

I thought the Tex/Kotch deal was actually worse than than the Tex to Texas deal…

What we were we thinking??

[zitothebrave]

I thought the Tex/Kotch deal was actually worse than than the Tex to Texas deal…

What we were we thinking??

That was a terrible rade. But the logic was simple, we had to get a major league 1B back cause that's what Bobby wanted as I recall it.

[CJ9]

Should've just held onto Tex and got the pick. I'm pretty sure I read that the Angels used that pick to take Trout. Not saying we would've taken him, but it stings to read that.