DOTW: Underrated Careers in Baseball Recently.

[zitothebrave]

With retirements from Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter and Mo RIvera we here about first ballot HOFers etc. But who do see being say the Bert Blyleven of this group/era.

Some candidates for me.

1. Scott Rolen. He'll likely wind up in the hall by voting because of his defense. But aside from being a great defender he was pretty awesome offensively as well. Sure he wasn't Chipper, Walker, Thomas, etc. But well above average to go with best defensive 3B of the generation.

2. Andruw Jones - Won't make the HOF most likely, but absolutely deserves it. Small list of qualifications, best defensive CF of all time coupled with 400+ HRs and 150+ SB.

3. Bobby Abreu - Should be considered a borderline HOF candidate but isn't. Abreu sucked defensively. But overall, he's a better career than Jeff Kent and vlad Guerrero who may wind up inthe hall.

4. Curt Schilling - 4th best pitcher from 1990 on, finished behind Lee freaking Smith.

[sturg33]

Larry Walker. How is he not in the hall?

[50PoundHead]

All worthy candidates. I think Walker will suffer some anti-Coors bias. I think the voters will be divided on Andruw, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get in.

Good discussion.

[weso1]

The steroid thing I think hurts guys like Rolen, Druw, Abreu and Walker. Walker is also hurt by playing much of his career in Colorado. Schilling doesn't have the wins, which unfortunately isn't ignored like it should be.

Tim Raines is an obvious one where you have to scratch your head and wonder why he isn't in the hall. I guess cause he lacks the sexy 3000 hits.

[DaneHill]

What are the knocks against Andruw, other than his career fell off a cliff at a relatively early age? He was a dominant player for 10 years or so. Used to be that 400 HRs was automatic inclusion into the HOF. Post-steroid era has bumped that up to 500 or so I guess. But considering his defensive superiority along with the offensive numbers, I'd think he'd get a very strong consideration. Not a 1st ballot. But perhaps after 5 or 6 years....

[zitothebrave]

All worthy candidates. I think Walker will suffer some anti-Coors bias. I think the voters will be divided on Andruw, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get in.

Good discussion.

Honestly I'm on the fence with Walker.

But the reason he doesn't get respect is because he didn't hit any of the big marks despite playing in Coors for nearly a decade. Obviously his slash line rocks, but that was largely helped by his Coors play which boosted his average.

There's also a red flag since he posted one of the best seasons of his career at 34 in the tail end of the roid era.

That said I'd put him in, but he's recognized for his abilities (JMO) more than the guys above him.

[sturg33]

Honestly I'm on the fence with Walker.

But the reason he doesn't get respect is because he didn't hit any of the big marks despite playing in Coors for nearly a decade. Obviously his slash line rocks, but that was largely helped by his Coors play which boosted his average.

There's also a red flag since he posted one of the best seasons of his career at 34 in the tail end of the roid era.

That said I'd put him in, but he's recognized for his abilities (JMO) more than the guys above him.

His numbers are pretty awesome outside of Coors too

[50PoundHead]

The steroid thing I think hurts guys like Rolen, Druw, Abreu and Walker. Walker is also hurt by playing much of his career in Colorado. Schilling doesn't have the wins, which unfortunately isn't ignored like it should be.

Tim Raines is an obvious one where you have to scratch your head and wonder why he isn't in the hall. I guess cause he lacks the sexy 3000 hits.

Agree on the injury front.

I think Raines just comes up a bit shorter than the other guys. Probably some bias from clueless writers who see him come up short on the AVG (and neglect the OBP). Lots of SBs. His problem is he fell off the table more dramatically than Andruw. He was older when the decline hit, but he didn't reach 400 ABs in his last six seasons. Age aside, he gets to 3,000 hits and 900 SBs with 500 AB seasons.

[Knucksie]

You guys continue to let your homerism cloud judgment about Andruw Jones and not think like a HOF voter. The argument about defense is flimsy. The only HOFers, who are in at least partly because of defense are:

1. Brooks Robinson
2. Ozzie Smith
3. Bill Mazeroski

All had post-season heroics on WS-winning teams. Brooks Robinson had other credentials. Ozzie Smith's hitting improved as his career went on. Bill Mazeroski was voted in by Veterans Committee, and is remembered mostly for the HR vs. the Yankees.

Voters will notice the SUBSTANTIAL drop-off in production by A. Jones, at an age when he still should've been a viable major leaguer. Nobody's shy about venting about Uggla or BJ Upton, but won't say squat about AJ's last year with the Braves or first year with the Dodgers. Raw suckage.

Dale Murphy is a 2 time MVP and 7 time All Star and was a model citizen and ambassador for the sport (voters tend to notice those types of things). Yeah, he's got a few Gold Gloves too, but not as many as Mr. Gold Club. He didn't make the cut.

[thethe]

Bernie Williams

That guy was overshadowed on those great Yankee teams.

[zitothebrave]

Bernie Williams

That guy was overshadowed on those great Yankee teams.

Bernie Williams wasn't that great. He got all the accolades he deserved.

Though you mentioning him and my remembering what year he didn't get into the hall led me to a name I forgot who's underrated (and loathed by Braves Fans) Kenny Lofton.

While better than several names in 2013 who stayed on the ballot such as Sosa, Mattingly, Murph and McGriff, he is close to production wise someone like Ed Mart or Raines who were way up the ballots. Hell, he's far superior to Bernie Williams and couldn't get a ballot repeat. I guess being kind of a jerk doesn't pay off in a popularity contest.

[50PoundHead]

You guys continue to let your homerism cloud judgment about Andruw Jones and not think like a HOF voter. The argument about defense is flimsy. The only HOFers, who are in at least partly because of defense are:

1. Brooks Robinson
2. Ozzie Smith
3. Bill Mazeroski

All had post-season heroics on WS-winning teams. Brooks Robinson had other credentials. Ozzie Smith's hitting improved as his career went on. Bill Mazeroski was voted in by Veterans Committee, and is remembered mostly for the HR vs. the Yankees.

Voters will notice the SUBSTANTIAL drop-off in production by A. Jones, at an age when he still should've been a viable major leaguer. Nobody's shy about venting about Uggla or BJ Upton, but won't say squat about AJ's last year with the Braves or first year with the Dodgers. Raw suckage.

Dale Murphy is a 2 time MVP and 7 time All Star and was a model citizen and ambassador for the sport (voters tend to notice those types of things). Yeah, he's got a few Gold Gloves too, but not as many as Mr. Gold Club. He didn't make the cut.

And Luis Aparicio.

I think Andruw will someday get in on a backlash vote. Or he could end up being Jack Morris.

[Bj1133]

Lance Berkman

[NinersSBChamps]

Larry Walker. How is he not in the hall?

He also discovers dead bodies on his property.

[Knucksie]

And Luis Aparicio.

Good catch, and still confirms that defense is not weighed heavily. For point of comparison, voters outside of Atlanta are going to say, "well Jim Edmonds won a bunch of Gold Gloves too" if it even enters into the conversation. It's not all about highlight reel catches on SportsCenter.


I think Andruw will someday get in on a backlash vote. Or he could end up being Jack Morris.

Here's what counts against him: a lot of voters still consider that the candidates must be among "the best of the best." They look at awards (esp. major awards, like MVP & Cy Young). If the Braves had won in '96, Andruw Jones would've been Series MVP. With it having been against the Yankees, that would've swayed some in his favor. Without that, they'll evaluate him as somebody, who was behind a lot of great power hitters during that period. Unfortunately, it was the 'roids era, so Bonds, McGuire and Sosa will never get inducted. Plus, AJ's career batting average will not be regarded favorably.

Jack Morris was an important part of 3 different WS-winning teams and was among leaders in certain pitching categories in the AL during the 80's. He pitched a no-hitter. Despite that only being one game, this always merits mention and is always included in bios for inductees. So, what counted against him (at least for certain voters)? They'd say that he fell short of the 300 win threshold and career ERA was high.

[The Chosen One]

You guys continue to let your homerism cloud judgment about Andruw Jones and not think like a HOF voter. The argument about defense is flimsy. The only HOFers, who are in at least partly because of defense are:

1. Brooks Robinson
2. Ozzie Smith
3. Bill Mazeroski

All had post-season heroics on WS-winning teams. Brooks Robinson had other credentials. Ozzie Smith's hitting improved as his career went on. Bill Mazeroski was voted in by Veterans Committee, and is remembered mostly for the HR vs. the Yankees.

Voters will notice the SUBSTANTIAL drop-off in production by A. Jones, at an age when he still should've been a viable major leaguer. Nobody's shy about venting about Uggla or BJ Upton, but won't say squat about AJ's last year with the Braves or first year with the Dodgers. Raw suckage.

Dale Murphy is a 2 time MVP and 7 time All Star and was a model citizen and ambassador for the sport (voters tend to notice those types of things). Yeah, he's got a few Gold Gloves too, but not as many as Mr. Gold Club. He didn't make the cut.

CF is probably the most demanding position to play besides Catcher. How many center fielders lasted in their 30's playing CF? Torii Hunter moved to LF/RF rather quickly after being one of the game's best CF.

Andruw is arguably the best defensive CF, and a lot of writers had the opportunity to see it, and a lot of the country did too since he was on TBS all the time. I think he has enough offense to go a long with his elite defense to get in in a few years. Maybe not first ballot but he'll get in there sure enough. Wasn't he also the youngest to homer in a world series also?

[Knucksie]

CF is probably the most demanding position to play besides Catcher. How many center fielders lasted in their 30's playing CF? Torii Hunter moved to LF/RF rather quickly after being one of the game's best CF.

Andruw is arguably the best defensive CF, and a lot of writers had the opportunity to see it, and a lot of the country did too since he was on TBS all the time. I think he has enough offense to go a long with his elite defense to get in in a few years. Maybe not first ballot but he'll get in there sure enough. Wasn't he also the youngest to homer in a world series also?

Well, again, we've named only 4 inductees who were famous for defense (Robinson, Smith, Mazerski & Aparacio). They had to have other factors in their favors though. In Ozzie Smith's case, he probably would've gotten in even without improving his hitting. He was extremely popular with media and fans, "a capture the imagination" type of player.

Yes, he was the youngest to homer in WS with 2, in fact. As mentioned, he would've won Series MVP, if not for that collective meltdown.

Google "andruw jones hall of fame" to see perceptions. Granted, these are voters writing this material, but there are compelling arguments.

Here's one:
http://unclemikesmusings.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-andruw-jones-hall-of-famer.html

What this blog presents against the possibility is low lifetime BA, high strikeout total and very low career hits total (< 2,000). Baserunning was solid at start of career, then fell off. In another blog, somebody presents dWAR. Seriously, what HOF voter relies on that stat? Yeah, they're all going to acknowledge great years of outstanding defense, but there aren't enough other credentials to carry him.

300 wins used to be a guaranteed spot (it's back to that status now). Don Sutton had to wait a few years. Voters made him sweat because he was never staff ace, and he pitched on a lot of great Dodgers teams. Still, nothing was going to prevent a 300 game winner. Phil Niekro had to sweat it out, because of career loss total. Obviously, he pitched on a lot of crappy Braves teams.

Just weighing factors, the average HOF voter is going to see that AJ never won any major awards and wasn't a league leader in any important offensive category. He wasn't near sure-fire threshold numbers in hits or HR's. (Look at what's happening with Biggio.)

Some voters return empty ballots and will never vote for a first ballot candidate. With those types of voters, it's impossible to see much sympathy for somebody who hit under .260 lifetime.

[Julio3000]

Andruw should get in. He won't, but he should. Schilling, dick that he is, should get in, too. Edgar Martinez? How 'bout it. y'all?

[zitothebrave]

Andruw Jones was far and away a better hitter than Ozzie, Mazeroski, and Aparicio.

ALos a better hitter than Brooks (though pretty close though similar ages)

As far as awards Druw was a 10 time Gold Glove, 5 time All-Star and should have won the MVP in 05. I was hoping he'd stick around in the majors a few years to get to 500 homers to solidify his case. Would have probably taken 4 more years to get there. Maybe 5.

[Tapate50]

I made a post about this about a year back and cannot remember who it was. I'll have to search the archives....

[Krgrecw]

Todd Helton and the vastly underrated Albert Belle

Belle had back to back seasons that rivaled anyone's.

[AUTiger7222]

With retirements from Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter and Mo RIvera we here about first ballot HOFers etc. But who do see being say the Bert Blyleven of this group/era.

Some candidates for me.

1. Scott Rolen. He'll likely wind up in the hall by voting because of his defense. But aside from being a great defender he was pretty awesome offensively as well. Sure he wasn't Chipper, Walker, Thomas, etc. But well above average to go with best defensive 3B of the generation.

2. Andruw Jones - Won't make the HOF most likely, but absolutely deserves it. Small list of qualifications, best defensive CF of all time coupled with 400+ HRs and 150+ SB.

3. Bobby Abreu - Should be considered a borderline HOF candidate but isn't. Abreu sucked defensively. But overall, he's a better career than Jeff Kent and vlad Guerrero who may wind up inthe hall.

4. Curt Schilling - 4th best pitcher from 1990 on, finished behind Lee freaking Smith.

Bobby Abreu was better than Vladimir Guerrero as a player? I totally disagree. Guerrero was the complete package as a player.


Honestly I'm on the fence with Walker.

But the reason he doesn't get respect is because he didn't hit any of the big marks despite playing in Coors for nearly a decade. Obviously his slash line rocks, but that was largely helped by his Coors play which boosted his average.

There's also a red flag since he posted one of the best seasons of his career at 34 in the tail end of the roid era.

That said I'd put him in, but he's recognized for his abilities (JMO) more than the guys above him.

Larry Walker was also a great defender and baserunner which helps his case.

[zitothebrave]

Bobby Abreu was better than Vladimir Guerrero as a player? I totally disagree. Guerrero was the complete package as a player..

Vlad's defense was grossly overrated because he has a bazooka for an arm. Once his athleticism started falling his defense went down south fast.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Albert Belle was Albert Pujols before Albert Pujols was Albert Pujols. That guy, even though he was a class A ahole could mash.

Here are other guys that are on my list:

Mike Mussina
Curt Schiling
Gary Sheffield
Kevin Brown
Edgar Martinez
Robin Ventura
Scott Rolen
Moises Alou
Jim Thome
Larry Walker
Ellis Burks
David justice
David cone
Jim Edmonds
Brad Radke
Paul Oneill
Andres Galarraga
Fred Mcgriff

[AUTiger7222]

Vlad's defense was grossly overrated because he has a bazooka for an arm. Once his athleticism started falling his defense went down south fast.

Even with that being the case, I would still take him as a player over Abreu. Look at Vlad's peak years from 1998-2008.

fWAR
1998 - 6.7
1999 - 4.5
2000 - 6.2
2001 - 4.8
2002 - 7.3
2003 - 3.2
2004 - 6.1
2005 - 5.4
2006 - 3.6
2007 - 3.2
2008 - 2,4
TOTAL - 53.4

Bobby Abreu's peak years were 1998-2010. So he has a 2 year advantage over Vlad there.

1998 - 6.5
1999 - 6.3
2000 - 6.9
2001 - 5.3
2002 - 5.1
2003 - 5.5
2004 - 5.3
2005 - 3.7
2006 - 3.5
2007 - 3.1
2008 - 1.5
2009 - 2.7
2010 - 2.4
TOTAL - 57.8 (52.7 from 1998-2008)

I'm actually a little surprised by Abreu's fWAR. He was better than I remember.

[Mrs. Meta]

Jessie Garcia...

...anyone?

He did homer off of Josh Beckett after all! :icwudt:

[AUTiger7222]

Albert Belle was Albert Pujols before Albert Pujols was Albert Pujols. That guy, even though he was a class A ahole could mash.

Here are other guys that are on my list:

Mike Mussina
Curt Schiling
Gary Sheffield
Kevin Brown
Edgar Martinez
Robin Ventura
Scott Rolen
Moises Alou
Jim Thome
Larry Walker
Ellis Burks
David justice
David cone
Jim Edmonds
Brad Radke
Paul Oneill
Andres Galarraga
Fred Mcgriff

Great list! Totally agree with you on all those guys. I just imagine the win total Radke could have had had he been pitching for a good team like the Yankees all those years instead of mostly average to bad Twins teams. I also don't understand why Moises Alou doesn't get more love. He just got knocked off the ballot for receiving less than 5% of the votes.

[Julio3000]

Mussina was top of the list for me.

[zitothebrave]

I'm actually a little surprised by Abreu's fWAR. He was better than I remember.

Hence his reason for inclusion in my OP :elefant:

[ViperVisor]

Career .291 .400 .502

but nobody cares because of the loser teams he was on

Brian Giles

[AUTiger7222]

Career .291 .400 .502

but nobody cares because of the loser teams he was on

Brian Giles

Unfortunately. Aside from very early in his career coming up with the Indians all he ended up on were bad teams in Pittsburgh and San Diego.

[Knucksie]

Gold Glove is an "icing on the cake."



As far as awards Druw was a 10 time Gold Glove, 5 time All-Star and should have won the MVP in 05. I was hoping he'd stick around in the majors a few years to get to 500 homers to solidify his case. Would have probably taken 4 more years to get there. Maybe 5.

With the qualifications that you listed, Dale Murphy won GG 5x, was AS 7x and MVP twice. He is off the ballot. Only 3 multiple MVP award winner are not in the Hall. For those 2 seasons, Murph was among the most feared hitters in baseball. He was absolutely among the best of the best. Outside of defense, which you're overrating as far as appeal to HOF voters, Andruw Jones was never held in the esteem outside of Atlanta.

[zitothebrave]

Gold Glove is an "icing on the cake."



With the qualifications that you listed, Dale Murphy won GG 5x, was AS 7x and MVP twice. He is off the ballot. Only 3 multiple MVP award winner are not in the Hall. For those 2 seasons, Murph was among the most feared hitters in baseball. He was absolutely among the best of the best. Outside of defense, which you're overrating as far as appeal to HOF voters, Andruw Jones was never held in the esteem outside of Atlanta.

Dale falls just shy. He could have been Sandy Koufax'd in if he had a career ending injury in 88. At that point he had a 44.5 rWAR. Druw was kind of the same, at the end of 2007 was at a 60.9 rWAR then barely added any more after that. But Druw was way better though his collapse than Murph. Murph had some amazing years, but he did all his damage in basically 6 years. Druw had 8 years.

Murph had the offensive clout but his late career collapse lead him to lose that. So his peak was pretty much washed out.

Murphy's career slash line was .265/.346/.469 with 398 homers 1266 RBIs 1197 runs, 161 stolen bases in 9041 plate appearances

Druw's career slashline was .254/.337/.486 with 434 homers 1289 RBIs 1204 runs, 152 stolen bases in 8664 plate appearances.

If you look at the 2 you would say they're close to a push in terms of an eye test. Murph of course played in a less offensive era so you'd see him being better, but Druw is generally regarded as one of the best defenders of all time. Murph isn't. Druw's name is mentioned with Mays and more.

Here's an article from someone who may be a voter or think like a voter.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/lists/all-time-best-center-fielders-in-mlb-history-022711

Every person on that list except Druw and Edmonds is in the Hall.

[zitothebrave]

Career .291 .400 .502

but nobody cares because of the loser teams he was on

Brian Giles

Very good player. Joins Murphy in the hall of very good.

[Tapate50]

I had always thought Druw would go in the Hall. There almost wasn't a day SportCenter (in its heyday) came on he wasn't doing something insane on there.

[The Chosen One]

I actually think Murphy will get in via veterans committee

[zitothebrave]

I actually think Murphy will get in via veterans committee

Me too. He'll get in for being a good guy. There are worse players than him in the hall, such as Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell, and George Kell. So he would'nt be undeserving,

Thought of another name, Joe Torre, Hall of Fame manager should also be in as a player. He is not far behind players like Willie Stargell, Duke Snider, and ahead of guys like Hank Greenberg, Ryan Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many other Hall of Famers.

[AUTiger7222]

Me too. He'll get in for being a good guy. There are worse players than him in the hall, such as Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell, and George Kell. So he would'nt be undeserving,

Thought of another name, Joe Torre, Hall of Fame manager should also be in as a player. He is not far behind players like Willie Stargell, Duke Snider, and ahead of guys like Hank Greenberg, Ryan Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many other Hall of Famers.

Totally agree! I made the case a couple years back that Joe Torre should be in as a player.

[cajunrevenge]

If Ozzie is in then Andruw should get in. One of the best offensive players at his position over 10 years and defense was some of the best all time. I think people view him worse because of the high expectations he set as a prospect/rookie. He was supposed to be what Mike Trout is now.

[The Chosen One]

Me too. He'll get in for being a good guy. There are worse players than him in the hall, such as Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell, and George Kell. So he would'nt be undeserving,

Thought of another name, Joe Torre, Hall of Fame manager should also be in as a player. He is not far behind players like Willie Stargell, Duke Snider, and ahead of guys like Hank Greenberg, Ryan Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many other Hall of Famers.

When can the committee vote him in I forgot which years they do it on the vet committee?

Is it possible Smoltz and Murph or Chipper/Murph same year?

[VirginiaBrave]

BTW, Bobby Abreu was still active as of Tuesday...

[50PoundHead]

If Ozzie is in then Andruw should get in. One of the best offensive players at his position over 10 years and defense was some of the best all time. I think people view him worse because of the high expectations he set as a prospect/rookie. He was supposed to be what Mike Trout is now.

Agree and maybe that changes with a newer generation of voters over time. One of the common mantras on Andruw was "he could be so much better," which made people forget how good he was. He had some terrible habits at the plate that frustrated the heck out of me, but he was a really good player.

[50PoundHead]

Me too. He'll get in for being a good guy. There are worse players than him in the hall, such as Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell, and George Kell. So he would'nt be undeserving,

Thought of another name, Joe Torre, Hall of Fame manager should also be in as a player. He is not far behind players like Willie Stargell, Duke Snider, and ahead of guys like Hank Greenberg, Ryan Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many other Hall of Famers.

Torre had a Murphy-like career. A couple of monster seasons and a slew of solid ones and he's probably on the fringe. No doubt he was a great player though.

[gilesfan]

Marcus Giles

[Knucksie]

Not recent, but always thought that Tommy John should've gotten inducted into the Hall, just for being the guinea pig for ACL surgery. The orthopedic surgeon just passed away.

[The Chosen One]

Maybe a Lastella Uggla platoon? He not lhp and rhp but La stella 20% uggla 80% at least until he struggles

[zitothebrave]

Maybe a Lastella Uggla platoon? He not lhp and rhp but La stella 20% uggla 80% at least until he struggles

Uggla has a reverse platoon slit. Hits righties better than lefties.

[AUTiger7222]

Agree and maybe that changes with a newer generation of voters over time. One of the common mantras on Andruw was "he could be so much better," which made people forget how good he was. He had some terrible habits at the plate that frustrated the heck out of me, but he was a really good player.

He was very frustrating to watch offensively at times because he could have been so much better. I remember back in 2007 when TP was trying to get him to hit the back to RF with 2 strikes and Andruw refused. He did it for 2 games, back-to-back games in early May of that year against the Padres and ended up picking up game-winning base-hits and then after the 2nd game said "I'm not a RF hitter. I'm a pull hitter." and then went back to trying to jack everything out of the park to LF.

[AUTiger7222]

Not recent, but always thought that Tommy John should've gotten inducted into the Hall, just for being the guinea pig for ACL surgery. The orthopedic surgeon just passed away.

Even that, but Tommy John racked up some great numbers after having the surgery. 200 something wins, back win wins actually meant something.

[The Chosen One]

Jason Kendall.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Jason Kendall's a good one. Very good player and leader at the catcher position but was lost in the shuffle with guys like Piazza and Pudge getting all the publicity while Jason was stuck on just some dreadful pirate teams.

I'm going to add a few more to my list if I may?

AROD, Jeter, and Nomar and ti a lesser extent Larkin got all the publicity at the shortstop position, all the while Edgar Renteria was putting up solid numbers year after year (similar to Jeter) while playing great defense.

John Olerud didn't get enough notoriety for just how good he was, but he was lost in the shuffle with sluggers like McGuire, Thomas, Bagwell, Mcgriff manning 1b.

Same could be said for Raffy Palmeiro, the guy just put up numbers but got little publicity. Of course, PEds played a big role now that we know, but at the time Raffy didn't get much pub.

In the outfield, Tim Salmon often got overlooked.

As far as starting pitchers, Kevin Appier and Chuck Finley had solid careers but were underrated being on some awful Royals and Angels teams. Ramon Martinez had a very good career but is known more for being Pedro's brother. Jimmy key had a solid but unspectacular career.

As far as closers, Wetteland, Nen, and Percival were absolute studs during their time and under appreciated. Wagner was dominant. A couple others that never got enough credit for how good they were are Mike Jackson and Keith Foulke. And although some of his hatred can be justified, Armando Benitez had a 7 year span where he was basically untouchable, except in the biggest of big games, LOL.

[Dalyn]

Lou Whitaker.

Will Clark.

Bret Saberhagen.

Willie Randolph.

Dave Parker.

Julio Franco.

Luis Gonzalez.

[jcc03004]

LET SEE
1) McGriff 6 straight 30 homer 100 rbi seasons
2) Will Clark
3) Trevor Hoffman
4) Mike Mussina

what do others think of Hoffman?

[thewupk]

He was very frustrating to watch offensively at times because he could have been so much better. I remember back in 2007 when TP was trying to get him to hit the back to RF with 2 strikes and Andruw refused. He did it for 2 games, back-to-back games in early May of that year against the Padres and ended up picking up game-winning base-hits and then after the 2nd game said "I'm not a RF hitter. I'm a pull hitter." and then went back to trying to jack everything out of the park to LF.

Well he just got done jacking 92 homers in the previous two years by being a pull hitter. One thing people have to understand is that not all hitters are the same. Some hitters don't have the ability to constantly go to all fields and be successful. And if they do they likely lose a lot of power by doing so. Each player should be coached differently and I don't buy the notion that if a player has had success doing one thing but is suddenly struggling that he should abandon that approach and try something else. Try fixing the actual problem and get that player doing what made them successful in the first place. And in Andruws case that was mashing balls to left field.

[PurpleBrave]

Joe Nathan

[AUTiger7222]

Well he just got done jacking 92 homers in the previous two years by being a pull hitter. One thing people have to understand is that not all hitters are the same. Some hitters don't have the ability to constantly go to all fields and be successful. And if they do they likely lose a lot of power by doing so. Each player should be coached differently and I don't buy the notion that if a player has had success doing one thing but is suddenly struggling that he should abandon that approach and try something else. Try fixing the actual problem and get that player doing what made them successful in the first place. And in Andruws case that was mashing balls to left field.

But you can't mash balls to left-field when pitchers are throwing everything in the dirt away which is exactly what they did to AJ in 2007. A lack of power was no excuse for him. He was plenty strong enough to take pitches on the other part of the plate and hit them out to center and right-center. In 2005 and 06 AJ also had better plate discipline to lay off the junk outside and in the dirt and force pitchers to give him something he could jack out to LF. AJ wasn't as discipline in 2007.

[thewupk]

But you can't mash balls to left-field when pitchers are throwing everything in the dirt away which is exactly what they did to AJ in 2007. A lack of power was no excuse for him. He was plenty strong enough to take pitches on the other part of the plate and hit them out to center and right-center. In 2005 and 06 AJ also had better plate discipline to lay off the junk outside and in the dirt and force pitchers to give him something he could jack out to LF. AJ wasn't as discipline in 2007.

Andruw had issues of discipline throughout his career. The point is radically changing someones approach is generally not the way to get them playing good again. Getting them back to what they are good at is.

[bravesnumberone]

Although he was a bit of an ass, Albert Belle was great during a short career.

[AUTiger7222]

Andruw had issues of discipline throughout his career. The point is radically changing someones approach is generally not the way to get them playing good again. Getting them back to what they are good at is.

I understand what you're saying. But you can't jack pitches that are away from you in the dirt out to LF. It's virtually impossible. You either have to lay off of them or hit them to RF.

[thewupk]

I understand what you're saying. But you can't jack pitches that are away from you in the dirt out to LF. It's virtually impossible. You either have to lay off of them or hit them to RF.

I understand that. I think getting Andruw to law off those would of been the better thing to attempt instead of trying to get him to use all fields. I mean he was able to put together some good years after LA as a part time player. Nothing like the player he used to be but still useful.

[zitothebrave]

I understand what you're saying. But you can't jack pitches that are away from you in the dirt out to LF. It's virtually impossible. You either have to lay off of them or hit them to RF.

Drew often laid off those pitches though. His only real problem were sliders dropping out of the zone. His problem post 2006 was that his bat got slow because of his bad knees and back. He couldn't get around on good pitches and had to guess more.

[Knucksie]

Going to bring up a name from the past, but it's probably not the best example for this thread: Bruce Chen. Granted, there was an enormous amount of hype, surrounding him, when he was moving through the Braves system. When the Braves traded him to the Phillies, probably everybody had left him for dead. Yes, he never lived up to that intial potential and was a journeyman. He was first traded by Atlanta in year 2000 and he's still kicking around the majors! Even if there's the Dayton Moore connection, it's amazing that he's had a career for this long.

[Millwood1Hitter]

LOL Bruce Chen. Not underrated at all, he is what he is, a lefty that has had a long career.

[zitothebrave]

Going to bring up a name from the past, but it's probably not the best example for this thread: Bruce Chen. Granted, there was an enormous amount of hype, surrounding him, when he was moving through the Braves system. When the Braves traded him to the Phillies, probably everybody had left him for dead. Yes, he never lived up to that intial potential and was a journeyman. He was first traded by Atlanta in year 2000 and he's still kicking around the majors! Even if there's the Dayton Moore connection, it's amazing that he's had a career for this long.

Don't know if I'dcall him underrated. THat would be like calling Jeff Francouer underrated.

[Knucksie]

LOL Bruce Chen. Not underrated at all, he is what he is, a lefty that has had a long career.

He had the last laugh. If in 2000, you would've asked any Braves fan if Chen would've still been in the majors within even a few years, let alone 15, you'd have been considered crazy.


Don't know if I'dcall him underrated. THat would be like calling Jeff Francouer underrated.

It's hard to categorize him, because Chen went from being a blue chip prospect to being close to scrap heap to hanging around, year after year. So, whether or not that's considered "underrated," who knows? He beat the odds though, and it's still rather impressive to be in the majors for that long.

We could assemble an interesting thread of all the Braves pitching propects, from the last 25 years, and there would be A LOT of forgotten names. Granted, different factors come into play (injuries, wrong situation/chemistry, stunted development, etc.). Forget about WAR for a moment, and just think about what it takes, just to be a major league player and then what it takes to remain there, year after year.

One last point - it may not seem like a big deal, but he actually led the AL in starts for 2012. Who would've ever guessed?

[The Chosen One]

Keith Lockhart.

What a clutch pinch-hitter and stand in 2B. Loyal to the manager and team.

http://www.chattanoogan.com/photos/2003/1/gallery.2501.jpg

[Millwood1Hitter]

Loved Keith, very good all around player that played hard and did whatever was best for the team. Very good defensively and decent with bat, and a very good late inning PH option against a tough RHP. The guy had a lot of clutch hits for us.

Unfortunately, he was called upon and asked far too often to do too much and get overexposed. He was apart of some great late 90s teams, but the organization failed to get a viable starting 2b.

He was the perfect 10th man for an NL team.

I don't understand the hate for him by many Braves fans.

[AUTiger7222]

Loved Keith, very good all around player that played hard and did whatever was best for the team. Very good defensively and decent with bat, and a very good late inning PH option against a tough RHP. The guy had a lot of clutch hits for us.

Unfortunately, he was called upon and asked far too often to do too much and get overexposed. He was apart of some great late 90s teams, but the organization failed to get a viable starting 2b.

He was the perfect 10th man for an NL team.

I don't understand the hate for him by many Braves fans.

Bobby having to use Lockhart as the Braves DH was pathetic. Wasn't Lockhart's fault he was put in that situation and wasn't Bobby's fault he didn't have anyone better.

[zitothebrave]

Loved Keith, very good all around player that played hard and did whatever was best for the team. Very good defensively and decent with bat, and a very good late inning PH option against a tough RHP. The guy had a lot of clutch hits for us.

Unfortunately, he was called upon and asked far too often to do too much and get overexposed. He was apart of some great late 90s teams, but the organization failed to get a viable starting 2b.

He was the perfect 10th man for an NL team.

I don't understand the hate for him by many Braves fans.

Don't flatter our beerless leader by taking him seriously.

Lcokhart sucked, Lockhart playing over Giles in 2001 was a true travesty in 2002 it was egregious. . That alone is worth the hate.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Don't flatter our beerless leader by taking him seriously.

Lcokhart sucked, Lockhart playing over Giles in 2001 was a true travesty in 2002 it was egregious. . That alone is worth the hate.

Say what? Quilvio Veras was the starting 2b until he got injured in July in which the Braves called Giles up and gave him a majority of at bats, so much so that after Furcal went down later on he became our full time lead off hitter.

And in 02 he got off to a bad start and suffered a severe ankle sprain and also lost his daughter.

But Lockhart was a solid player from 97-00, jjust should not have played as much and wasn't Bobby's fault he didn't have any better options on those teams. He was a utility infielder.

Championship caliber teams should not be stuck on relying on a Lockhart-graffinino platoon to win games. Not especially when you also got a Klesko-Williams platoon in left and a Tucker-Batista platoon in right with Weiss/Guillen at short.

[The Chosen One]

Zito you don't mess with the historian

[zitothebrave]

Say what? Quilvio Veras was the starting 2b until he got injured in July in which the Braves called Giles up and gave him a majority of at bats, so much so that after Furcal went down later on he became our full time lead off hitter.

And in 02 he got off to a bad start and suffered a severe ankle sprain and also lost his daughter.

But Lockhart was a solid player from 97-00, jjust should not have played as much and wasn't Bobby's fault he didn't have any better options on those teams. He was a utility infielder.

Championship caliber teams should not be stuck on relying on a Lockhart-graffinino platoon to win games. Not especially when you also got a Klesko-Williams platoon in left and a Tucker-Batista platoon in right with Weiss/Guillen at short.

Veras had 558 innings at 2B in 2001 Lockhart had 313. It's not quite the story you painted. Especially since Lockhart had more PA in the second half of the season. And if you want to sub in Quilvio playing over Giles as well that's fine. Giles was hurt in 02, that stank, but he still lost time to others. Like Lockhart.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Veras had 558 innings at 2B in 2001 Lockhart had 313. It's not quite the story you painted. Especially since Lockhart had more PA in the second half of the season. And if you want to sub in Quilvio playing over Giles as well that's fine. Giles was hurt in 02, that stank, but he still lost time to others. Like Lockhart.

I'm not gonna take any time to look up stats, but Veras struggled big time coming back from injury and had numerous nagging injuries during that time period in which Bobby filled in with Lockhart until the Braves brass finally cut ties with Quilvio in mid July because they were high on Giles and gave him majority of at bats.

Giles struggled at the beginning of 2002 at the start. It appeared that pitchers had a scouting report in him after 2001 and Giles need to make an adjustment, then he got injured, was out for almost 2 months, and at that time Bobby was comfortable going with Lockhart and Derosa at second base, and we were winning. Part of the reason as well Giles was terrible defensively and didnt become a good defender until putting a lot if time in with Hubbard after that seasonGiles didn't exactly impress after he was called up either.

[AUTiger7222]

Say what? Quilvio Veras was the starting 2b until he got injured in July in which the Braves called Giles up and gave him a majority of at bats, so much so that after Furcal went down later on he became our full time lead off hitter.

And in 02 he got off to a bad start and suffered a severe ankle sprain and also lost his daughter.

But Lockhart was a solid player from 97-00, jjust should not have played as much and wasn't Bobby's fault he didn't have any better options on those teams. He was a utility infielder.

Championship caliber teams should not be stuck on relying on a Lockhart-graffinino platoon to win games. Not especially when you also got a Klesko-Williams platoon in left and a Tucker-Batista platoon in right with Weiss/Guillen at short.

I remember Marcus Giles first homerun with the Braves in 2001. It was a Grand Slam! He had a lot of power for a little guy.

[The Chosen One]

I remember DeRo took the job from Giles in Colorado... then he rolled his ankle on a single.

I rooted for DeRo. Very consistent singles hitter.

[Millwood1Hitter]

I remember Marcus Giles first homerun with the Braves in 2001. It was a Grand Slam! He had a lot of power for a little guy.

IIRC it was off of the great Mike Hampton.

[AUTiger7222]

IIRC it was off of the great Mike Hampton.

You are correct. 8th inning down 2-1 and Giles got a hold of one.

May 15, 2001 - COL @ ATL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ATL/ATL200105150.shtml)

[bravesnumberone]

Also, Paul Konerko. Pretty solid career for the White Sox.

[Dalyn]

Pete Rose.

[AUTiger7222]

Also, Paul Konerko. Pretty solid career for the White Sox.

I wonder if the Dodgers and Reds regret the way they handled Paul Konerko at the beginning of his career considering the great career he's had with the White Sox? The Reds probably not so much because Konerko was traded for Mike Cameron who was then flipped to Seattle for Ken Griffey Jr. But the Dodgers traded Konerko to the Reds for closer Jeff Shaw. As the Braves saw with the way the Adam LaRoche for Mike Gonzalez deal worked it, it's not a good thing to trade an everyday position player for a closer especially one that was as highly thought of as Konerko was coming up through the Dodgers system.

[jason27nc]

Tony Gwynn was the most underrated player that I can remember. The guy always got it done and even when he retired is was mostly all about Cal Ripken.

[zitothebrave]

Tony Gwynn was the most underrated player that I can remember. The guy always got it done and even when he retired is was mostly all about Cal Ripken.

I should preface this by saying Gwynn is great, and personally I would have a hard time considering a first ballot hall of famer underrated normally. That being said Cal was a far superior player.

Gwynn finished his career with a slash line of .338/.388/.459. 135 homers 319 stolen bases and played an at best adequate defense in RF (personal take, he was good young, then really bad old)

Cal was worse offensively compiling a slash line of .276/.340/.447 431 homers and 36 stolen bases. But Cal was a great defensive SS. Early in his career Cal was a force to be reckoned with. Imagine if Simmons and TUlowitzki were merged into a player who played all 162 games, that was Cal. And not to mention Cal has a games played record that likely will never be broken.

Both are great players, both are totally worthy of their accolades. Tony is just an inferior overall package as an adequate defensive RF vs one of the best defensive short stops. That's gonna more than make up the difference between the 2 offensively when both are great hitters.

[goldfly]

Cals played game streak is the most overrated "record" ever in my eyes

[zitothebrave]

Cals played game streak is the most overrated "record" ever in my eyes

It's a record that likely stands the test of time. 16 consecutive seasons without missing a game is impressive by any means.

[goldfly]

sure but that doesn't make it more impressive to me

there is no way that somewhere in that "streak" that the team wouldn't have been better without him out there when he played through an injury for a game or two etc