View Full Version : Braves sign Ervin Santana to 1 year 14.1M deal
Knucksie
03-12-2014, 01:01 PM
And then there is this:
Braves and GM Wren not done Rebuilding Pitching Staff?
After the conclusion of Ervin Santana's introductory press conference, Wren stated that he and his staff were not done.
"This is an incredible decision by the organization," Wren said. "This is going to push us well above what we thought our budget would be this year. I'm excited about this decesion, and we are not done by any means on bolstering this pitching staff for the upcoming season and in the future." When asked on what changed with the additional flexibility to take on payroll compared to the beginning of the offseason, Wren said, "There have been many developments that have taken place in the past few months. For one thing the additional revenue that we are figuring from moving to Cobb, second is locking in our young players to long-term deals giving us financial security knowing how much is allocated to those positions, and third ownership has seen the benefit that the Braves have added to their portfolio and how investing in the organization and putting additional resources into it can bring even greater returns on putting a championship caliber team on the field. We have the resources, we are going to get it done, and we are going to field an exciting and competitive young team." When asked about the potential move that he is currently working on, Wren stated, "I can't elaborate, but all I will say, is it is going to change the landscape of our division and all of baseball, and Braves fans are going to be exciting as we will field the best pitching staff in baseball that will rival the days of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz."
Wonder who he is alluding to?
He doesn't usually offer that much detail in advance of a transaction. This is quite interesting, if it's an accurate quote.
yeezus
03-12-2014, 01:11 PM
He doesn't usually offer that much detail in advance of a transaction. This is quite interesting, if it's an accurate quote.
yeah, it's not.
it was a fake.
Knucksie
03-12-2014, 01:12 PM
I absolutely hate that we had to do this. Firstly, I hate it for Kris. Secondly, we lost our 1st round pick which we desperately needed to replenish a weak farm system (the argument that it's OK to lose this pick because we have a sandwich pick is so illogical and misguided). Having two high picks is twice as good as one, no matter how you slice it. I also think the chances of us offering him a QO next winter to recoup this pick are less than 50-50 as our budget is extremely tight for the 2015 season and we probably won't be able to take the chance he accepts unless he has a monster season and becomes one of the top free agents. We also lost the slot money that goes with that pick, so it isn't like we can now spend that money somewhere else. We also most likely lost all or at least a significant portion of any flexibility we had for a mid-season acquisition.
Ever since the Glavine re-signing, this has been the party line. Give it a rest. Desperate times call for desperate measures. They weren't going to enter the season with Teheran as a staff ace, followed by Garcia, Wood and Hale and question mark with Beachy and prayers that Minor will be sorted out soon. This was a necessary move to field a competitive team. Remember the hysterial posts, just a day ago? "Lucky if we have an 80 win season!" Bunch of babies.
They did this same thing last year by signing BJ Upton and didn't lose anything with Bourn. So, they're just back to where they started. Then, how many months on this board (and probably any other online location where Braves fans gathered) was there incessant bitching about not getting a top of the rotation starter? Despite the unfortunately set of circumstances, Wren just addressed the issue. His first job is to build a championship team, not just be constantly paranoid about prospects for 5 years away. They've active in the international markets, so it's not as if there's cause to hit the panic button.
Considering this is almost mid-March, it was the only proper course of action.
Gary82
03-12-2014, 01:14 PM
We got the 2008 Santana, right?
Julio3000
03-12-2014, 01:21 PM
The thing that impresses me the most about this is that Dayton Moore has apparently gone full pre-cog. In 2013 he managed to acquire a *future* Brave.
NYCBrave
03-12-2014, 02:09 PM
Just some perspective, but Braves first round draft pick history since '95. What's our success rate anyway????
2013 Jason Hursh RHP Oklahoma State 31
2012 Lucas Sims RHP Brookwood (Ga.) High School 21
2011 Sean Gilmartin LHP Florida State 28
2010 Matt Lipka SS McKinney (Texas) HS 35
2009 Mike Minor LHP Vanderbilt 7
2007 Jason Heyward OF Henry County HS, McDonough, Ga. 14
2006 John Johnson OF A. Crawford Mosely HS (Panama City, Fla.) 24
2005 Joseph Devine RHP North Carolina St 27
2002 Jeff Francoeur OF Lilburn, GA 23
2001 Macay McBride LHP Screven County HS, Sylvan 24
2001 Josh Burrus SS Wheeler HS, Marietta, Ga 29
2000 Scott Thorman 3B Cambridge, Ontario 30
2000 Adam Wainwright RHP St. Simons Island, GA 29
1997 Troy Cameron SS Ft. Lauderdale, FL 29
1996 A.J. Zapp 1B Greenwood, IN 27
1995 *-Chad Hutchinson RHP Encinitas, CA 26
AUTiger7222
03-12-2014, 02:13 PM
We got the 2008 Santana, right?
If we get the 2008 Santana I will definitely eat my crow and love it. But chances are just as good the Braves will get the 2012 Santana as they are getting the one from 2008. I'm just hoping for a FIP of 4 with hopefully him repeating his 3-to-1 strikeout-to-walk ratio from last year.
thethe
03-12-2014, 02:16 PM
The thing that impresses me the most about this is that Dayton Moore has apparently gone full pre-cog. In 2013 he managed to acquire a *future* Brave.
I hate that you are so damn witty and I'm so "normal".
clvclv
03-12-2014, 02:30 PM
He doesn't usually offer that much detail in advance of a transaction. This is quite interesting, if it's an accurate quote.
Doesn't necessarily mean it will be DURING the 2014 season.
Mark my take down as the first voter that thinks we WON'T be outbid for David Price IF we don't trade for him during the season (have thought that since the first mention of the new ballpark and moreso since the money started flowing for extensions).
Price has just made entirely too much sense as the answer to the question of "Will we ever actually go outside of the organization to get an 'Ace'?" for entirely too long.
Santana for one year only strengthens that argument. We now KNOW (beyond question) that Liberty will allow Wren & Company to do what it takes to increase the value of this asset. Most of the extensions fit within what was the original budget to begin with. $28 million in new revenues from the new national TV deal and you want $14 million to fill a NEED? Took an hour to get the go-ahead from McGuirk.
bravesnumberone
03-12-2014, 02:33 PM
So glad our season isn't over before the calendar turns to April. If this guy duplicates what he did last year then we should still be favorites to make the postseason.
Most importantly the message this signing sends is big. Ownership is FINALLY investing back into the team and its clear the objective is to be as good as possible when we go into Cobb County. It truly is a BRAVE NEW WORLD!
Ban???
Knucksie
03-12-2014, 02:46 PM
Just some perspective, but Braves first round draft pick history since '95. What's our success rate anyway????
2013 Jason Hursh RHP Oklahoma State 31
2012 Lucas Sims RHP Brookwood (Ga.) High School 21
2011 Sean Gilmartin LHP Florida State 28
2010 Matt Lipka SS McKinney (Texas) HS 35
2009 Mike Minor LHP Vanderbilt 7
2007 Jason Heyward OF Henry County HS, McDonough, Ga. 14
2006 John Johnson OF A. Crawford Mosely HS (Panama City, Fla.) 24
2005 Joseph Devine RHP North Carolina St 27
2002 Jeff Francoeur OF Lilburn, GA 23
2001 Macay McBride LHP Screven County HS, Sylvan 24
2001 Josh Burrus SS Wheeler HS, Marietta, Ga 29
2000 Scott Thorman 3B Cambridge, Ontario 30
2000 Adam Wainwright RHP St. Simons Island, GA 29
1997 Troy Cameron SS Ft. Lauderdale, FL 29
1996 A.J. Zapp 1B Greenwood, IN 27
1995 *-Chad Hutchinson RHP Encinitas, CA 26
So, Wainwright and Heyward were the only stars drafted by the Braves in the 1st round, so far, with Minor knocking on the door, and hopefully the recent picks pan out. Some busts in that group and one chose football.
Want even more perspective? Go as far back as the early 90's for very early first round picks. Chipper was the one blue chipper. Some of the other names: Tyler Houston (they needed a catcher), Derek Lilliquist and Mike Kelly.
200 innings at a 4.50 FIP is good? Okie dokie smokie. I'm done, this just ruins my morning. I'm going back to bed, screw this.
FIP is a terrible way to judge a pitcher. Particularly a groundball pitcher like Santana.
He's been much better than you give him credit for.
Tapate50
03-12-2014, 02:56 PM
I hate that you are so damn witty and I'm so "normal".
Me too. :Sad:
Millwood1Hitter
03-12-2014, 02:58 PM
I'm gonna say it:
THE MLB DRAFT IS A CRAPSHOOT. Not trying to sound like the Braves brass, but it is moreso than any other draft in any other professional sports. You are just as likely to find a star in the middle and late rounds as in the early rounds. Our success rate in the later rounds prove this, and that list of 1st rounders brings back a lot of nostaglia thinking about some of the hype that those guys got and never panned out to diddly poo.
50PoundHead
03-12-2014, 03:22 PM
I just wish Medlen was 100%. I bet this deal costs us the chance to sign Heyward long-term.
How? Santana is probably here for a year.
I don't want go histrionic, I don't think we are a playoff team without making this deal. We maybe aren't with this deal, but with the projected loss of Medlen, we were in trouble.
David Hale? I hope it has come together for him, but this is a guy whose minor league stats are nothing to write home about. Could be a late-bloomer, but I wouldn't bet the house on the guy at this point.
We can all choose our stats K/BB, HR%, WHIP, whatever. Santana is a proven commodity. He's not a perfect pitcher. He would have been signed in December if he was. But again, look at the innings numbers. The guy can eat them.
50PoundHead
03-12-2014, 03:29 PM
Wow. What a morning.
For anyone who doesn't like this move, consider the following.
Give or take a few on either side, MLB has about 30 pitchers who make it to 200 innings pitched every year. It's really hard to do in this era of baseball. Part of the reason our pitching did so well last year was because we had Mike Minor achieve that feat, and had 2 others (Medlen, Teheran) that came fairly close to it. Obviously Medlen can't do that now, and Minor is questionable. By getting Santana, we at least stand a halfway decent chance of getting at least 400ish quality innings out of the rotation, or maybe even more if Minor comes back strong. It's not outlandish to think that perhaps we might have 3 pitchers flirt with 200 innings again. For a contending team, you cannot expect to go to war with only one or two guys that have proven that they can go the whole season, and win. I really like what I've seen out of Wood, but he's apparently on a limit. And we may have another Beachy that comes out of nowhere. But you can't assume that will happen. At some point, you owe it to your team to solve a problem with a proven commodity, and Santana was the closest to that we were going to get at this point.
As for the WHIP argument, consider a basic example: Two pitchers pitch in seperate games. One gives up a home run, two singles, and gets out of the inning. Another gives up two singles, then a home run. Vastly different outcomes, yet WHIP views their performances to be the same value. It's a fun at a glance stat, but just that.
As for the fake quote:
http://www.famouspictures.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/I_want_to_believe5.jpg
Gee talk about hypothetical small sample size. All statistics have to be placed in context. I've always viewed WHIP as pretty good shorthand. There are going to be a few guys who out-perform or under-perform their WHIP, but it's not a bad predictor when it comes to placing pitchers in performance strata.
MadduxFanII
03-12-2014, 04:01 PM
The Twins have got to be experiencing a bit of a self-esteem crisis at the moment.
"Hmm. You want to offer me three years and $27 million? No thanks. I'll take less security and less guaranteed money from the Braves."
yeezus
03-12-2014, 04:05 PM
The Twins have got to be experiencing a bit of a self-esteem crisis at the moment.
"Hmm. You want to offer me three years and $27 million? No thanks. I'll take less security and less guaranteed money from the Braves."
I look at it as, he knows he very likely can get more than that the next two years.
50PoundHead
03-12-2014, 04:08 PM
The Twins have got to be experiencing a bit of a self-esteem crisis at the moment.
"Hmm. You want to offer me three years and $27 million? No thanks. I'll take less security and less guaranteed money from the Braves."
Twins are optimistic (at least the team is, but it is only March), but I don't see that much improvement. For the Twins to compete, Gibson will have to take a big step forward and Hughes will have to show he's better than he's been. Speaking of Hughes, I can only imagine Santana's agent saying, "Oh, so you think Ervin is a whole million dollars a year better than Phil Hughes? Okay. See ya."
I look at it as, he knows he very likely can get more than that the next two years.
Exactly. As pointed out on MLBTR and elsewhere: Santanta signed for the same amount as this year's qualifying-offer, and if he pitches well enough in 2014 to merit the Braves extending him a qualifying-offer, he could always accept it and earn over two seasons (~$29 million) about what the Twins were offering him over three ($30-33 million).
thethe
03-12-2014, 04:17 PM
I'd be very happy if he accepted the QO next year. That meant that he pitched really well in 2014.
gilesfan
03-12-2014, 04:19 PM
The Twins have got to be experiencing a bit of a self-esteem crisis at the moment.
"Hmm. You want to offer me three years and $27 million? No thanks. I'll take less security and less guaranteed money from the Braves."
If he pitches like he did from 09-12, hes gonna be kicking himself.
Millwood1Hitter
03-12-2014, 04:21 PM
I think the moral of the story is that it pays to be patient the way free agency has shook out these last 2 years. Granted, the Braves weren't exactly patient and were forced to essentially scoop in and be in on and sign Santana this late because of a unforseen injury to one of its top pitchers, but we were able to sign the best starting pitcher that was on the market at the beginning of the FA period.
Similiar thing happened last year as well, with Bourn, we would have been better off waiting instead of signing BJ to that albatross of a contract and be able to sign a better player and a better fit for the roster at considerably less money and years than BJ.
But how do you know? Its nice to get deals done, and areas shored up, so you know what you have and don't have, where funds are allocated so you can move forward and try to improve the club at other areas that need addressed.
Knucksie
03-12-2014, 04:45 PM
I'm gonna say it:
THE MLB DRAFT IS A CRAPSHOOT. Not trying to sound like the Braves brass, but it is moreso than any other draft in any other professional sports. You are just as likely to find a star in the middle and late rounds as in the early rounds. Our success rate in the later rounds prove this, and that list of 1st rounders brings back a lot of nostaglia thinking about some of the hype that those guys got and never panned out to diddly poo.
We mustn't lose sight of the fact that there are a couple of posters here, who think that they know better about prospects than anybody else. They're not shy about informing us how their major league career will project out. Amazing, considering the professionals trying to sort through reports, attending games, monitoring data. Then a 20 year old fantasy league team owner, armed with a Samsung Galaxy, is the bigger expert.
Knucksie
03-12-2014, 04:47 PM
I'd be very happy if he accepted the QO next year. That meant that he pitched really well in 2014.
If he pitches very well, in a contract year, he's going to try free agency again. That doesn't mean that there won't be mutual interest in a QO and new contract. Way too early to even think about it though.
AUTiger7222
03-12-2014, 05:14 PM
Doesn't necessarily mean it will be DURING the 2014 season.
Mark my take down as the first voter that thinks we WON'T be outbid for David Price IF we don't trade for him during the season (have thought that since the first mention of the new ballpark and moreso since the money started flowing for extensions).
Price has just made entirely too much sense as the answer to the question of "Will we ever actually go outside of the organization to get an 'Ace'?" for entirely too long.
Santana for one year only strengthens that argument. We now KNOW (beyond question) that Liberty will allow Wren & Company to do what it takes to increase the value of this asset. Most of the extensions fit within what was the original budget to begin with. $28 million in new revenues from the new national TV deal and you want $14 million to fill a NEED? Took an hour to get the go-ahead from McGuirk.
I can't see the Braves outbidding the Dodgers or Yankees or someone else for David Price. $200M? Just not happening.
NYCBrave
03-12-2014, 05:33 PM
I'd be very happy if he accepted the QO next year. That meant that he pitched really well in 2014.
Actually I would think the opposite. If he pitched well this year, he'd be in line for a multi-year deal, so why would he accept the QO?
benchguy
03-12-2014, 05:44 PM
He saying that because if he didn't take the offer, the Braves would get a high draft pick
Actually I would think the opposite. If he pitched well this year, he'd be in line for a multi-year deal, so why would he accept the QO?
thewupk
03-12-2014, 06:22 PM
If he pitches like he did from 09-12, hes gonna be kicking himself.
I doubt it. He needs 13 million over two years to cover what the Twins offered him. He would have to get hurt and be one of the worst starters in the league to not get that 13 over 2.
Jay212033
03-12-2014, 06:26 PM
I'm gonna say it:
THE MLB DRAFT IS A CRAPSHOOT. Not trying to sound like the Braves brass, but it is moreso than any other draft in any other professional sports. You are just as likely to find a star in the middle and late rounds as in the early rounds. Our success rate in the later rounds prove this, and that list of 1st rounders brings back a lot of nostaglia thinking about some of the hype that those guys got and never panned out to diddly poo.
I'd rather have 2 chances to hit the lottery as oppose to one.
zitothebrave
03-12-2014, 06:33 PM
I'd rather have 2 chances to hit the lottery as oppose to one.
I'd rather have a rotation that won't include Hale and Garcia all year.
PurpleBrave
03-12-2014, 06:44 PM
If Uggla keeps this up, its going to be hard to give him the battle axe
The Chosen One
03-12-2014, 06:52 PM
I'd rather have a rotation that won't include Hale and Garcia all year.
You underestimate Mr. Garcia.
He know how to make pitch. I think he can mentor Julio Teheran, seeing as how Garcia had similar stuff in his prime.
Millwood1Hitter
03-12-2014, 06:55 PM
I can't believe so many Braves fans are rooting against Uggla. This love affair with a middle if the road prospect in LaStella is baffling.
If Uggla returns to form and mashes it is good for the Braves on the field, as well as gives them a potential avenue to trade him in the offseason and shed payroll if needed and make room for LaStella, who gets additional experience at AAA.
CyYoung31
03-12-2014, 06:58 PM
LaStella should be a utility player this year if he's not starting.
Millwood1Hitter
03-12-2014, 07:03 PM
LaStella should be a utility player this year if he's not starting.
The second half of the season, yes but I'd much sooner see him play everyday and get at bats and work in his horrid defense down in the minors. With Pena already in the roster as super utility infielder it will be tough for him to get any time in the field.
Dalyn
03-12-2014, 07:10 PM
I can't believe so many Braves fans are rooting against Uggla. This love affair with a middle if the road prospect in LaStella is baffling.
If Uggla returns to form and mashes it is good for the Braves on the field, as well as gives them a potential avenue to trade him in the offseason and shed payroll if needed and make room for LaStella, who gets additional experience at AAA.
No one is rooting against Uggla. Just being realistic.
yeezus
03-12-2014, 07:11 PM
I can't believe so many Braves fans are rooting against Uggla. This love affair with a middle if the road prospect in LaStella is baffling.
If Uggla returns to form and mashes it is good for the Braves on the field, as well as gives them a potential avenue to trade him in the offseason and shed payroll if needed and make room for LaStella, who gets additional experience at AAA.
Rooting against? Na.
Lost faith? Yup.
I've given up on him, forgive me. I don't see how he could be productive again. I hope I'm wrong. But I think La Stella would be more productive, this season.
ChapelHillMatt
03-12-2014, 07:14 PM
I don't understand why people have faith in Upton but not Uggla. At least Uggla walks and hits for power, something BJ didn't do.
That said I hope they both rebound and have great years. I don't have faith in either one of them however.
And I love the Santana signing, love that we have money to cover for a serious injury.
yeezus
03-12-2014, 07:16 PM
I don't understand why people have faith in Upton but not Uggla. At least Uggla walks and hits for power, something BJ didn't do.
That said I hope they both rebound and have great years. I don't have faith in either one of them however.
And I love the Santana signing, love that we have money to cover for a serious injury.
You don't understand, really?
Surely you can see where we're coming from.
Uggla is 34, Upton 29.
Upton has been a productive player more recently.
Jay212033
03-12-2014, 07:25 PM
I'd rather have a rotation that won't include Hale and Garcia all year.
Even without Santana the rotation wouldn't have included both guys all season.
zitothebrave
03-12-2014, 07:45 PM
Even without Santana the rotation wouldn't have included both guys all season.
I'm not optimistic Beachy can stay healthy.
Meaning we'd have
Minor
Julio
Wood (on an inning limit)
Floyd
As of mid may. When Wood needs to be sidelined, and before Floyd comes back.
CyYoung31
03-12-2014, 07:54 PM
The second half of the season, yes but I'd much sooner see him play everyday and get at bats and work in his horrid defense down in the minors. With Pena already in the roster as super utility infielder it will be tough for him to get any time in the field.
His defense won't be much of a factor if he's not playing everyday. Another good bat on the bench would be nice.
Mrs. Meta
03-12-2014, 08:42 PM
How? Santana is probably here for a year.
I don't want go histrionic, I don't think we are a playoff team without making this deal. We maybe aren't with this deal, but with the projected loss of Medlen, we were in trouble.
David Hale? I hope it has come together for him, but this is a guy whose minor league stats are nothing to write home about. Could be a late-bloomer, but I wouldn't bet the house on the guy at this point.
We can all choose our stats K/BB, HR%, WHIP, whatever. Santana is a proven commodity. He's not a perfect pitcher. He would have been signed in December if he was. But again, look at the innings numbers. The guy can eat them.
Bartolo colon woulda been the ultimate innings eater for us :Sad:
CyYoung31
03-12-2014, 08:52 PM
Bartolo colon woulda been the ultimate innings eater for us :Sad:
We already had Livan. That guy ate way too many innings.
BremanFan88
03-12-2014, 09:36 PM
I don't understand why people have faith in Upton but not Uggla. At least Uggla walks and hits for power, something BJ didn't do.
Last year was the first time BJ has ever had such a poor year and has an entire career that says he's not that player so until he shows consistently that it wasn't a fluke then there's plenty of hope he'll get back to normal. BJ doesn't typically hit for a high average either(I don't measure either player by their battling average) but a normal year for him consists of hitting homers, stealing a lot of bases, good walk percentage and playing solid to good defense.
Yes Dan has power and walks but his bad defense and lack of production on the base paths make his low average even more of an issue. When you lack other tools like Dan you have to hope the ones you have are so good they make up for what you lack. Uggla pretty much HAS to hit over .260(which he hasn't done since 2010) to be an impact player.
You're going to think what you want about BJ but he's a 4 tool player who can give this team a 3-4 WAR even if he hits .240. Also BJ walked 10% of the time last season so yes that IS something he did do well. They both have to get their k% back to career norms for them to be effective but Dan has to provide more offense to make up for his defense and lack of base running which is going to be tough since age isn't on his side anymore.
AUTiger7222
03-12-2014, 10:22 PM
I don't understand why people have faith in Upton but not Uggla. At least Uggla walks and hits for power, something BJ didn't do.
That said I hope they both rebound and have great years. I don't have faith in either one of them however.
And I love the Santana signing, love that we have money to cover for a serious injury.
Really? So we shouldn't have faith in a guy that is still in his prime but should have faith in a guy that is 34 and has been terrible 2 years in a row? Not just that, he hits for power? He had like 3 extra base hits in the last 40 games he played of 2013 and has hit just 19 and 22 homeruns the last 2 years, the only reason he ever made it to the majors.
cajunrevenge
03-12-2014, 10:31 PM
The only thing positve you can say about BJ is that he has no where to go but up. I wonder how many games we win last year it BJ just repeated his 2012 season? 105?
ChapelHillMatt
03-12-2014, 11:05 PM
Really? So we shouldn't have faith in a guy that is still in his prime but should have faith in a guy that is 34 and has been terrible 2 years in a row? Not just that, he hits for power? He had like 3 extra base hits in the last 40 games he played of 2013 and has hit just 19 and 22 homeruns the last 2 years, the only reason he ever made it to the majors.
Well if you'll read my post (which you obviously didn't) you'll see I said I don't have faith in either one of them.
Last year Uggla (as bad as he was) hit 22 homeruns. BJ hit 9. I get it, people want to believe in BJ because of his talent and he's still relatively young but the fact is he's always been inconsistent, is lazy, and is coming off one of the worst years I've ever seen a FA have. But hey have faith he's going to all of a sudden figure it out, I wish I was as confident in him as everyone else was. I think he'll be better but I'm expecting 230 and 20/20, not much more.
The popular thing to do on this board is bash Uggla, I just don't get why those same people love BJ so much. I really don't. I personally find both guys frustrating and wish neither one was on our team.
Gary82
03-12-2014, 11:08 PM
Well if you'll read my post (which you obviously didn't) you'll see I said I don't have faith in either one of them.
Last year Uggla (as bad as he was) hit 22 homeruns. BJ hit 9. I get it, people want to believe in BJ because of his talent and he's still relatively young but the fact is he's always been inconsistent, is lazy, and is coming off one of the worst years I've ever seen a FA have. But hey have faith he's going to all of a sudden figure it out, I wish I was as confident in him as everyone else was. I think he'll be better but I'm expecting 230 and 20/20, not much more.
The popular thing to do on this board is bash Uggla, I just don't get why those same people love BJ so much. I really don't. I personally find both guys frustrating and wish neither one was on our team.
If BJ plays as poorly as he did last year, you'll get your Uggla hate.
CyYoung31
03-12-2014, 11:26 PM
So I guess Heyward passed the laziness bug over to BJ. Luckily, there are no other underperforming African-Americans on the roster, so it can't spread anywhere else.
NinersSBChamps
03-12-2014, 11:27 PM
We already had Livan. That guy ate way too many innings.
Among other things. The guy feasted on the Braves a time or 8 as well.
sgtpepper1972
03-13-2014, 12:11 AM
The thing that impresses me the most about this is that Dayton Moore has apparently gone full pre-cog. In 2013 he managed to acquire a *future* Brave.
👍
The Chosen One
03-13-2014, 12:17 AM
Just think, before inflation... Roger Clemens got 20 million to pitch 4 months.
mossy
03-13-2014, 12:42 AM
Sorry if this has been covered, but I've been away almost all day, and don't want to read all 14 pages.
Do most of you approve of this deal? I know little of Santana, other than that his name was floating around. Where will he pitch in our currently depleted rotation? Is he ace material? Is he as good as Teheran?
Would you guys rather have him, Burnett, or Hudson if we'd had that choice?
I'm personally glad we went out and got SOMEBODY. I feel like spring means something again.
I'm sure gonna miss Kris Medlen. I'm sick about what has happened to him.
Gary82
03-13-2014, 12:51 AM
Sorry if this has been covered, but I've been away almost all day, and don't want to read all 14 pages.
Do most of you approve of this deal? I know little of Santana, other than that his name was floating around. Where will he pitch in our currently depleted rotation? Is he ace material? Is he as good as Teheran?
Would you guys rather have him, Burnett, or Hudson if we'd had that choice?
I'm personally glad we went out and got SOMEBODY. I feel like spring means something again.
I'm sure gonna miss Kris Medlen. I'm sick about what has happened to him.
Santana could negate the loss of Medlen. I don't expect anything more than a middle of the rotation pitcher (there's obvious value in that.) Let's just hope Minor, Teheran and to a lesser degree Wood step up.
The Braves just spent a ****load of money for Santana, especially if you count the loss of the pick. It's good to know the Braves are willing to spend money now.
Listen (http://www.talkingchop.com/2014/3/12/5502500/kris-medlen-emotionally-discusses-injury) to Medlen speak about the injury. It's heart-breaking.
Sorry if this has been covered, but I've been away almost all day, and don't want to read all 14 pages.
Do most of you approve of this deal? I know little of Santana, other than that his name was floating around. Where will he pitch in our currently depleted rotation? Is he ace material? Is he as good as Teheran?
Would you guys rather have him, Burnett, or Hudson if we'd had that choice?
I'm personally glad we went out and got SOMEBODY. I feel like spring means something again.
I'm sure gonna miss Kris Medlen. I'm sick about what has happened to him.
Santana pitched just about as well or better than anyone in our rotation last yr. If he can keep the ball in the park, he should be good for a mid 3 ERA and 200 innings.
yeezus
03-13-2014, 05:32 AM
Sorry if this has been covered, but I've been away almost all day, and don't want to read all 14 pages.
Do most of you approve of this deal? I know little of Santana, other than that his name was floating around. Where will he pitch in our currently depleted rotation? Is he ace material? Is he as good as Teheran?
Would you guys rather have him, Burnett, or Hudson if we'd had that choice?
I'm personally glad we went out and got SOMEBODY. I feel like spring means something again.
I'm sure gonna miss Kris Medlen. I'm sick about what has happened to him.
I think we're very lucky Liberty opened up the strings of the purse, AND that a guy of Santana's caliber was still a FA and open to coming here.
He could pitch as well as anyone on the roster.
50PoundHead
03-13-2014, 06:53 AM
Sorry if this has been covered, but I've been away almost all day, and don't want to read all 14 pages.
Do most of you approve of this deal? I know little of Santana, other than that his name was floating around. Where will he pitch in our currently depleted rotation? Is he ace material? Is he as good as Teheran?
Would you guys rather have him, Burnett, or Hudson if we'd had that choice?
I'm personally glad we went out and got SOMEBODY. I feel like spring means something again.
I'm sure gonna miss Kris Medlen. I'm sick about what has happened to him.
Santana is a solid pitcher. Worth $14.1 million? In the current market, probably yes. I like the signing.
Performance has been up and down in his career, but he's been a reliable innings-eater to this point and that's what he'll probably be for us in 2014.
gilesfan
03-13-2014, 08:48 AM
From frangraphs, kind of implies how going to Turner helps a guy like Santana.
At Turner Field, ZiPS projects Santana for a 3.59 ERA, which is certainly serviceable as a mid-rotation guy. While this is a site more dedicated to the stats side of things, Santana has a whole heck of a lot riding on his gamble to take one year this year. He will without a doubt be banking on performing up to his full potential to guarantee he gets a long term offer he is looking for. Whether that actually has an impact on his performance is impossible to know, but I like the fact that he has more than a few motivations for success.
Santana fits the mold of a lot of the Braves pitchers. First off, he has a low walk rate, which is what the Braves focus heavily on in the rotation. Mike Minor, Kris Medlen, and Julio Teheran were all dynamos in this aspect last season, and Santana should continue to pound the zone just as the rest of the staff does. The low walk rate obviously helps his WHIP, an integral fantasy category. Netting a solid 1.14 mark last season, his first year with the sinker, is definitely a good sign. We can expect his BABIP to rise, but again as the Braves should also have a solid defense behind him, it shouldn’t rise at the same level were he to go to a defensively challenged squad. Again, this is a great landing place for Santana due to man factors. Home runs have always been an issue with Santana and they likely will be again this year, but moving to the NL should help him keep that number below 25. If he can continue to pound the zone, the home run issue shouldn’t be too big of a detriment as long as they are more often of the solo variety.
All in all, if you were interested in Santana a week ago, you should be even more interested in him now. His projected ZiPS ERA dropping from 4.26 to 3.59 exemplifies that better than my words ever could.
Claiming Santana is as good as Minor is silly, but he should be a solid middle of the rotation option.
Teheran_49
03-13-2014, 09:09 AM
Santana is a solid pitcher. Worth $14.1 million? In the current market, probably yes. I like the signing.
Performance has been up and down in his career, but he's been a reliable innings-eater to this point and that's what he'll probably be for us in 2014.
Yeah it's quite sad that an ace will get 20-30 mill. while a solid pitcher gets about 15 mill.
AUTiger7222
03-13-2014, 10:40 AM
Well if you'll read my post (which you obviously didn't) you'll see I said I don't have faith in either one of them.
Last year Uggla (as bad as he was) hit 22 homeruns. BJ hit 9. I get it, people want to believe in BJ because of his talent and he's still relatively young but the fact is he's always been inconsistent, is lazy, and is coming off one of the worst years I've ever seen a FA have. But hey have faith he's going to all of a sudden figure it out, I wish I was as confident in him as everyone else was. I think he'll be better but I'm expecting 230 and 20/20, not much more.
The popular thing to do on this board is bash Uggla, I just don't get why those same people love BJ so much. I really don't. I personally find both guys frustrating and wish neither one was on our team.
You can call BJ a lot of things but lazy isn't one of them. There's absolutely no basis whatsoever for that claim. Same for Uggla.
Since this was mentioned multiple times as a hypothetical downside to the Santana signing, I thought this merited note:
O'Brien: Team still have any payroll flexibility to add piece if needed during season?
Wren: "When we’re in the hunt, we’ve always found a way."
The Chosen One
03-13-2014, 10:47 AM
I just think people don't like Ervin because when they saw Braves sign Santana it wasn't Johan.
and yes I know Johan is done
Julio3000
03-13-2014, 10:50 AM
Santana could negate the loss of Medlen. I don't expect anything more than a middle of the rotation pitcher (there's obvious value in that.) Let's just hope Minor, Teheran and to a lesser degree Wood step up.
The Braves just spent a ****load of money for Santana, especially if you count the loss of the pick. It's good to know the Braves are willing to spend money now.
Listen (http://www.talkingchop.com/2014/3/12/5502500/kris-medlen-emotionally-discusses-injury) to Medlen speak about the injury. It's heart-breaking.
Medlen is always a great interview. Sadly, he is no less so here. Makes me root for him that much more.
ChapelHillMatt
03-13-2014, 10:50 AM
You can call BJ a lot of things but lazy isn't one of them. There's absolutely no basis whatsoever for that claim. Same for Uggla.
Your right, he hustles all the time.
Oh wait!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5_LKajePjI
I just think people don't like Ervin because when they saw Braves sign Santana it wasn't Johan.
Well, technically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_Santana):
Santana was born Johan Ramon Santana, and used that name throughout his life until 2003. At that time, he decided to change his name to avoid having the same name as pitching star Johan Santana. According to Ervin Santana, "I just came up with Ervin... Ervin Santana, that sounds good."
thewupk
03-13-2014, 11:18 AM
Well, technically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_Santana):
my mind has been blown
Julio3000
03-13-2014, 11:20 AM
Im sure his parents always told little Johan that one day he would make a name for himself.
Julio3000
03-13-2014, 11:20 AM
my mind has been blown
So he took the initiative to invent a name for himself, and "Ervin" was what he decided on?
MadduxFanII
03-13-2014, 11:30 AM
I think Ervin/Johan also got caught using another guy's birth certificate in order to appear a bit younger, which necessitated the name change more than, "Golly, I want to change my name."
The Chosen One
03-13-2014, 11:35 AM
Im sure his parents always told little Johan that one day he would make a name for himself.
:facepalm:
yeezus
03-13-2014, 11:36 AM
I think Ervin/Johan also got caught using another guy's birth certificate in order to appear a bit younger, which necessitated the name change more than, "Golly, I want to change my name."
You sure about that?
I don't remember Ervin being one of those guys.
I think Ervin/Johan also got caught using another guy's birth certificate in order to appear a bit younger, which necessitated the name change more than, "Golly, I want to change my name."
You sure about that?
I don't remember Ervin being one of those guys.
Indeed: I hadn't read, and haven't found anything just now, to substantiate that. Source?
MadduxFanII
03-13-2014, 12:14 PM
Indeed: I hadn't read, and haven't found anything just now, to substantiate that. Source?
I don't need a source, punk!
Also, this (http://futureangels.mlblogs.com/2011/07/28/ervin-santanas-journey-to-a-no-hitter/):
When he signed on September 2, 2000, Ervin Santana was neither Ervin nor 16.
Santana used the birth certificate of a relative to make the Angels think he was younger than he was. It was not an uncommon practice at the time. The name he gave was Johan Quezada Santana, with a date of birth of November 28, 1983. His real name was Ervin Ramon Santana, and he was born on December 12, 1982 — eleven months earlier than he claimed.
The discrepancy was discovered during the winter of 2002-2003, as part of an industry-wide investigation. Some Dominicans were found to be years older than they claimed, so eleven months wasn’t that big a deal.
I saw Ervin pitch for the Angels in fall instructional league on October 5, 2000. It was at the Angels’ old minor league complex, Gene Autry Park, in Mesa, Arizona. If it wasn’t his first start in the U.S., it was one of his first.
gilesfan
03-13-2014, 12:34 PM
You can call BJ a lot of things but lazy isn't one of them. There's absolutely no basis whatsoever for that claim. Same for Uggla.
TB fans disagree.
zbhargrove
03-13-2014, 01:29 PM
TB fans disagree.
Classic Giles
I don't need a source, punk!
Also, this (http://futureangels.mlblogs.com/2011/07/28/ervin-santanas-journey-to-a-no-hitter/):
Damn: he should've stuck with Quezada.
AUTiger7222
03-13-2014, 01:59 PM
Your right, he hustles all the time.
Oh wait!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5_LKajePjI
Yep. B.J. didn't hustle there. It's one clip. But you can't deny the work B.J. has done consistently off the field. Read all the stories on it. B.J. didn't suck on the field last year because he wasn't putting in work off the field. You want to know who was lazy off the field? Andruw Jones. Had he taken better care of himself he wouldn't have come crashing down to earth as fast he did.
AUTiger7222
03-13-2014, 02:02 PM
TB fans disagree.
I am a Rays fan as well. Read all the articles. B.J. puts in ample work and then some off the field.
ChapelHillMatt
03-13-2014, 02:18 PM
Yep. B.J. didn't hustle there. It's one clip. But you can't deny the work B.J. has done consistently off the field. Read all the stories on it. B.J. didn't suck on the field last year because he wasn't putting in work off the field. You want to know who was lazy off the field? Andruw Jones. Had he taken better care of himself he wouldn't have come crashing down to earth as fast he did.
We aren't talking about Andrew, we are talking about BJ. I'm sure you can find other clips of BJ not giving 100% if you looked hard enough. He doesn't always give 100%. I'm sure he does work hard off the field, most players do. I never said he didn't put in the work off the field because I have no way of knowing but on the field he's lazy. He doesn't run out ground balls and lets balls fall in front of him that he could easily get too if he would hustle. Andrew did this once and Bobby yanked him for it, after that I never saw it from him again.
drewdat
03-13-2014, 03:44 PM
So he took the initiative to invent a name for himself, and "Ervin" was what he decided on?
It opens up the option of calling him Magic Santana, though.
Dalyn
03-13-2014, 04:01 PM
We aren't talking about Andrew, we are talking about BJ. I'm sure you can find other clips of BJ not giving 100% if you looked hard enough. He doesn't always give 100%. I'm sure he does work hard off the field, most players do. I never said he didn't put in the work off the field because I have no way of knowing but on the field he's lazy. He doesn't run out ground balls and lets balls fall in front of him that he could easily get too if he would hustle. Andrew did this once and Bobby yanked him for it, after that I never saw it from him again.
Yep.
Julio3000
03-13-2014, 04:04 PM
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/transitions-03-1024_zps1c739ea5.jpg
My all-time fave Ervin.
Julio3000
03-13-2014, 04:06 PM
It opens up the option of calling him Magic Santana, though.
Black Magic?
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/santana-black-magic-woman-1970-8_zps30407155.jpg
Just as long as Matchbox 20 never becomes involved.
CyYoung31
03-13-2014, 06:24 PM
Just as long as Matchbox 20 never becomes involved.
I think that was just Rob Thomas.
Dalyn
03-13-2014, 06:35 PM
I think that was just Rob Thomas.
He's the whole problem with that band.
Millwood1Hitter
03-13-2014, 06:40 PM
What's wrong with Rob Thomas? Am I missing something...?
keithlaw
03-13-2014, 07:13 PM
What's wrong with Rob Thomas? Am I missing something...?
Rob Thomas is a whore
The Chosen One
03-13-2014, 07:52 PM
Rob Thomas is a whore
Give me your heart make it real or else forget about it.
mossy
03-13-2014, 09:25 PM
So he took the initiative to invent a name for himself, and "Ervin" was what he decided on?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YORUWPIAgIE/UXP-5SwoyNI/AAAAAAAAHEg/suLMtID2I4Y/s1600/davechappellerobinhoodmenintights.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BefiSimZEaY
Just for good measure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrLVQqU1-mw
AUTiger7222
03-13-2014, 09:35 PM
How in the hell did you guys end up talking about Rob Thomas and Matchbox 20? :facepalm:
mossy
03-13-2014, 09:36 PM
How in the hell did you guys end up talking about Rob Thomas and Matchbox 20? :facepalm:
I nominate this for post of the week.
Oklahomahawk
03-13-2014, 09:52 PM
Give me your heart make it real or else forget about it.
:bowdown:
The Chosen One
03-13-2014, 10:01 PM
:bowdown:
No offense but aren't you kind of old to know that song.
No offense but aren't you kind of old to know that song.
Santana
The Chosen One
03-13-2014, 10:59 PM
Santana
Agreed, but the song with Rob Thomas was in 1999 I think. lol
AUTiger7222
03-13-2014, 11:04 PM
Agreed, but the song with Rob Thomas was in 1999 I think. lol
It's old for sure! If that was the exact year, then Andruw Jones was walking it off with the help of Kenny Rogers!
Gary82
03-13-2014, 11:08 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YORUWPIAgIE/UXP-5SwoyNI/AAAAAAAAHEg/suLMtID2I4Y/s1600/davechappellerobinhoodmenintights.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BefiSimZEaY
Just for good measure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrLVQqU1-mw
Holy ****, I was looking to reference this but couldn't find anything. You're doing gods work.
zitothebrave
03-13-2014, 11:27 PM
It's old for sure! If that was the exact year, then Andruw Jones was walking it off with the help of Kenny Rogers!
Why was Andruw walking off with the Gambler?
zitothebrave
03-13-2014, 11:28 PM
Agreed, but the song with Rob Thomas was in 1999 I think. lol
That's 15 years ago. OkieHawk was only 80 back then so he was still in touch iwth what was hip and happening.
Heyward
04-28-2014, 05:42 PM
Was about to post the same thing.
1 year would be dumb, if they give up the pick, might as well do 4-5 years.
Right as i always am.
For Dalyn.
Dalyn
04-28-2014, 05:44 PM
Right as i always am.
For Dalyn.
Oh, please. Go back to the threads BEFORE Beachy and Medlen went down.
Heyward
04-28-2014, 05:47 PM
Oh, please. Go back to the threads BEFORE Beachy and Medlen went down.
Not going that far, BUT i didnt know we'd have increased revenue.
There were a few of us that were screaming from the rooftops about a cash influx and increased payroll ... all offseason.
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