Contraception

[57Brave]

Wondering if board participants fall along predictable lines. The coalition of the religious and business community lined up against everyday people

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/supreme-court-hobby-lobby_n_5027527.html

[57Brave]

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/imgs/2014/140325-women-voters-employers-should-not-be-able-to-limit-birth-control-coverage.jpg




I agree with this point from twitter
.................................................. .........

The Rude Pundit ‏@rudepundit 2m

Just to be sure, @HobbyLobbyStore: Your god is cool with you buying stuff from China and helping fund forced abortions?
Expand

[BedellBrave]

Of course there are different points of view. Link (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/374108/war-hobby-lobby-rich-lowry).

[57Brave]

Of course there is a different point of view, it is a Supreme Court case.

Why not just call it knee jerk persecuted christians vs the 21st century?
Problem is, one Justice already has let the cat publicly out of the bag and said the case is about abortion. Or Gay Rights or "girls just wanna have fun" .............. or something.


"abortifacients" ------------------- really?

[BedellBrave]

I try, but it always proves futile.

[AerchAngel]

I try, but it always proves futile.

What did you expect? You are talking to a Dummicrat which has as much sense as a rock.

[57Brave]

Not quite sure how you tried??

You injected the word "abortifacients" to a conversation.
When did that even become a part of our vocabulary.
How does "your shirts" get to throw around such loaded terms?
let alone lay these implications on people that have had this right for years then expect to use is as the basis for a negotiation.
The term implies an everyday woman uses contraception to knowingly kill a human.
Let's not let the details of how it is still up in the air when that fetus does become a human or let alone the details of white men imposing their terms of choice on women . As the chart shows, overwhelming numbers of women voters are not at all in favor of the Hobby Lobby Inquisition.
Honestly -- I do get it.


Wow, that takes stones.
////////////////////////////////////////

Now, on to the topic.
There is a lot of talk of slippery slopes on this board. Government interferes in HC or unions interfere with businesss blah blah blah.

How's bouts the slippery slopes that tag along should this suit go in Hobby Lobby's favor.
Suppose a company doesn't like the way a woman dress'. Can they deny her her rights? Whixh rights?
Suppose Islamics demand in the name of religion we all stop to pray to Allah x-number times a day and all business stops.

Suppose a company doesn't wish the serve black people based on their color (AA -you listening?) -- my readings tells me this give business unrestricted rights to deny anyone anything, Based on what?
Religion?
Does the Constitution allow you to impose your religion on me? Or the hypothetical Islamists to shut down economy? Or will we just seperate into 2 camps. The "abortifacients" vs those of us that assumed we were past the Salem Witch Hunts

[57Brave]

What did you expect? You are talking to a Dummicrat which has as much sense as a rock.


Where do you get off referring those you disagree with as "Dummicrats" ?????
That is the way you have respectful conversations - in fist shaker land?

Yeah, y'all try.
My ass

[AerchAngel]

Where do you get off referring those you disagree with as "Dummicrats" ?????
That is the way you have respectful conversations - in fist shaker land?

Yeah, y'all try.
My ass

Aren't you a Democrat?

[AerchAngel]

Not quite sure how you tried??



Suppose a company doesn't wish the serve black people based on their color (AA -you listening?) -- my readings tells me this give business unrestricted rights to deny anyone anything, Based on what?
Religion?
Does the Constitution allow you to impose your religion on me? Or the hypothetical Islamists to shut down economy? Or will we just seperate into 2 camps. The "abortifacients" vs those of us that assumed we were past the Salem Witch Hunts

I could give two schits if they don't serve me. It has been done in a round about way more than once to me. If they don't want my business I go elsewhere. I am not a pussy and cry to media that I was not served and make a national spectacle out of it.

[57Brave]

"I belong to no organized political party. I am a registered (D) "
-Will Rogers

paraphrase

[57Brave]

I could give two schits if they don't serve me. It has been done in a round about way more than once to me. If they don't want my business I go elsewhere. I am not a pussy and cry to media that I was not served and make a national spectacle out of it.

Because people before you struggled for your right to have that choice. Wasn't always the case.

In fact in my lifetime it hasn't always been the case

[AerchAngel]

Because people before you struggled for your right to have that choice. Wasn't always the case.

In fact in my lifetime it hasn't always been the case

Yes, the Republican Party, the Dems did not want to give us that choice.

[sturg33]

57 - do you think men's health premiums should subsidize women's contraceptives?

[The Chosen One]

57 - do you think men's health premiums should subsidize women's contraceptives?

57 says we should have single payer so it wouldn't be an issue.

I thought you guys knew this by now.

[57Brave]

Yes, the Republican Party, the Dems did not want to give us that choice.

The parties have switched ideologies -- that Southern Stratagy thingy proposed by Roger Ailes and Kevin Phillips.
I'm sure you've never heard the story of LBJ saying (D) gave up the south the day he signed Civil Rights.

That is the same Roger Ailes that runs herd over Fox News. I'm sure you knew that too

[57Brave]

57 - do you think men's health premiums should subsidize women's contraceptives?

Do you know what all contraceptives for a woman's body?
With that knowledge, yes, i have no problem helping support contraception for women. Until of course a better system is in place

[50PoundHead]

57 - do you think men's health premiums should subsidize women's contraceptives?

Should healthy people's premiums subsidize unhealthy people's premiums?

[sturg33]

Should healthy people's premiums subsidize unhealthy people's premiums?

No.

In other words - I shouldn't be penalized for being healthy to subsidize the obese smoker.

I shouldn't be penalized in my health premiums because I'm a man. I don't need as much health care as women do. Why should I be paying for it?

I shouldn't need to subsidize contraception. If a woman wants to have sex - fine. Let her pay for it.

[57Brave]

You then do not support the basic premise of insurance ?

Straight up question --

[The Chosen One]

No.

In other words - I shouldn't be penalized for being healthy to subsidize the obese smoker.



Right, because that's the only type of person that's unhealthy. Excellent comparison.

[zitothebrave]

No.

In other words - I shouldn't be penalized for being healthy to subsidize the obese smoker.

I shouldn't be penalized in my health premiums because I'm a man. I don't need as much health care as women do. Why should I be paying for it?

I shouldn't need to subsidize contraception. If a woman wants to have sex - fine. Let her pay for it.

You don't get how insurance works do you?

Sounds to me like you want to ban health insurance, I think i could get behind that for the most part, would cut tons of doctor salaries, we'd have less big pharma money rolling around, and many other positives. Of course more people would die of cancer, there'd be less money out there for high end equipment so basically only the richest of the rich hospitals would provide quality health care. But is it worse than the way things are today? I'm not sure.

[zitothebrave]

Right, because that's the only type of person that's unhealthy. Excellent comparison.

I don't think I should support stressed out sturg who's gonna have a heart condition at 40 and ED at 50 because he works too hard.

[50PoundHead]

No.

In other words - I shouldn't be penalized for being healthy to subsidize the obese smoker.

I shouldn't be penalized in my health premiums because I'm a man. I don't need as much health care as women do. Why should I be paying for it?

I shouldn't need to subsidize contraception. If a woman wants to have sex - fine. Let her pay for it.

But if you get insurance from your employer, your insurance rates reflect the claims data of all the participants in your pool, both healthy and unhealthy.

[zitothebrave]

But if you get insurance from your employer, your insurance rates reflect the claims data of all the participants in your pool, both healthy and unhealthy.

No that only happens under Obamacare. Stop changing the past !!!!!!!!!1111

[sturg33]

I happen to work in the insurance industry (not health insurance). I understand how insurance works and makes money.

I don't think a man should have to support women's contraceptives. But I'm a radical - so...

[AerchAngel]

The parties have switched ideologies -- that Southern Stratagy thingy proposed by Roger Ailes and Kevin Phillips.
I'm sure you've never heard the story of LBJ saying (D) gave up the south the day he signed Civil Rights.

That is the same Roger Ailes that runs herd over Fox News. I'm sure you knew that too

Of course I did.

Turd....er Bird (ex Klansmen) tried so hard to prevent this but yet my people are too stupid to acknowledge that this cracker ass cracker (Chris Rock's voice) wanted to keep us down.

As for Faux News, don't care, never cared and will ever care what they say, preach or lie about same as LiberalBullschit MSNBC. Both are unworthy news channels if I ever saw one that are worshiped by sheep like you.

[Dalyn]

I was for contraception until I saw how much it increased the heating cost in the UK.

[57Brave]

Skeptics of the legal challenge to Obamacare's birth control mandate warn that a ruling against it could conceivably declare open season on virtually any law that a person or business can mount a religious-based objection to. If Hobby Lobby can be exempt because of its owners' Christian beliefs, Justice Elena Kagan wondered, what legal principle would stop other corporations from seeking religious-based exemptions from minimum wage or sex discrimination laws?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/john-roberts-birth-control-reasoning


and this
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/the-religious-liberty-campaign-may-be-backfiring-for-conservatives

[goldfly]

I happen to work in the insurance industry (not health insurance). I understand how insurance works and makes money.

I don't think a man should have to support women's contraceptives. But I'm a radical - so...

:facepalm:

[50PoundHead]

I happen to work in the insurance industry (not health insurance). I understand how insurance works and makes money.

I don't think a man should have to support women's contraceptives. But I'm a radical - so...

And I get that, but if your company currently provides contraception in its health plan, everybody is going to pay for it, just like everyone pays for stents for smokers who suffer heart disease and obese people that need knee replacements. I understand premium rates within a pool do vary, but there's no way that someone isn't subsidizing something that someone else will use that he or she won't.

[sturg33]

And I get that, but if your company currently provides contraception in its health plan, everybody is going to pay for it, just like everyone pays for stents for smokers who suffer heart disease and obese people that need knee replacements. I understand premium rates within a pool do vary, but there's no way that someone isn't subsidizing something that someone else will use that he or she won't.

Sure - but our company offers buy up plans for things like that... I don't buy up for contraception.

Also, our company makes us to bio metric screenings once a year, and if we are a smoker, we have a 30% premium increase.

[50PoundHead]

Sure - but our company offers buy up plans for things like that... I don't buy up for contraception.

Also, our company makes us to bio metric screenings once a year, and if we are a smoker, we have a 30% premium increase.

But you do buy up a lot of other stuff that other people use that you don't.

[57Brave]

And the common thread is the much bigger trend across the country. “Individuals and entities with religious objections to certain laws that protect others are seeking to use their religion to trump others,” Brigitte Amiri, senior staff attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union’s Reproductive Freedom Project, told Salon.


http://www.salon.com/2014/03/27/hobby_lobbys_secret_agenda_how_its_secretly_fundin g_a_vast_right_wing_movement/

[50PoundHead]

And the common thread is the much bigger trend across the country. “Individuals and entities with religious objections to certain laws that protect others are seeking to use their religion to trump others,” Brigitte Amiri, senior staff attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union’s Reproductive Freedom Project, told Salon.


http://www.salon.com/2014/03/27/hobby_lobbys_secret_agenda_how_its_secretly_fundin g_a_vast_right_wing_movement/

I strongly believe in religious freedom, but what I see happening is not the exercise of religious freedom, but an attempt to unravel the social contract through a straw man argument. I have yet to see any church doors chained shut in the country.

[Coredor]

I don't know about you guys, but I'd prefer that women have contraception. It's a lot cheaper than than getting them pregnant. Contraception is a lot cheaper than having kids. That is for the government, insurance, and men in general.

[The Chosen One]

Coredor the issue is the right believes intervening in the reproduction process is basically abortion. Prevention of sperm meeting egg. Life begins as soon as they meet.

[Coredor]

Coredor the issue is the right believes intervening in the reproduction process is basically abortion. Prevention of sperm meeting egg. Life begins as soon as they meet.

I know that crowd's deal on it although it blows my mind. I was talking more about the people who were saying they didn't want to pay for contraception because they don't use it.

[50PoundHead]

Coredor the issue is the right believes intervening in the reproduction process is basically abortion. Prevention of sperm meeting egg. Life begins as soon as they meet.

Agree at a level. There is a part of the pro-life movement that has become an anti-sex movement.

[kendiz]

Late to this conversation, but I have a question for the men who are against contraception being covered. You do realize that you are talking about women who are married, in relationships, AND those who prefer to play the field a bit...right? It's not just for those bad girls out there who are having sex 24/7. I'm just stunned at you men who would cut off your noses to spite your face. Who the heck do you think these women are having sex with??? Do you prefer paying for tons of unwanted pregnancies? But hey...if you prefer no sex, condoms, or changing diapers....who am I to judge? Just remember....many insurance policies also covers Viagra, penis pumps, ED, implants, vasectomies, and circumcision. I don't mind paying for that stuff......MY HUSBAND may suffer an injury or illness where he needed sexual health care.....

[57Brave]

Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception Manufacturers


When Hobby Lobby filed its case against Obamacare's contraception mandate, its retirement plan had more than $73 million invested in funds with stakes in contraception makers.

—By Molly Redden | Tue Apr. 1, 2014 3:00 AM PDT
967


When Obamacare compelled businesses to include emergency contraception in employee health care plans, Hobby Lobby, a national chain of craft stores, fought the law all the way to the Supreme Court. The Affordable Care Act's contraception mandate, the company's owners argued, forced them to violate their religious beliefs. But while it was suing the government, Hobby Lobby spent millions of dollars on an employee retirement plan that invested in the manufacturers of the same contraceptive products the firm's owners cite in their lawsuit.

Documents filed with the Department of Labor and dated December 2012—three months after the company's owners filed their lawsuit—show that the Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).

Several of the mutual funds in Hobby Lobby's retirement plan have holdings in companies that manufacture the specific drugs and devices that the Green family, which owns Hobby Lobby, is fighting to keep out of Hobby Lobby's health care policies: the emergency contraceptive pills Plan B and Ella, and copper and hormonal intrauterine devices.


These companies include Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, which makes Plan B and ParaGard, a copper IUD, and Actavis, which makes a generic version of Plan B and distributes Ella. Other holdings in the mutual funds selected by Hobby Lobby include Pfizer, the maker of Cytotec and Prostin E2, which are used to induce abortions; Bayer, which manufactures the hormonal IUDs Skyla and Mirena; AstraZeneca, which has an Indian subsidiary that manufactures Prostodin, Cerviprime, and Partocin, three drugs commonly used in abortions; and Forest Laboratories, which makes Cervidil, a drug used to induce abortions. Several funds in the Hobby Lobby retirement plan also invested in Aetna and Humana, two health insurance companies that cover surgical abortions, abortion drugs, and emergency contraception in many of the health care policies they sell.

In a brief filed with the Supreme Court, the Greens object to covering Plan B, Ella, and IUDs because they claim that these products can prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in a woman's uterus—a process the Greens consider abortion. But researchers reject the notion that emergency contraceptive pills prevent implantation the implantation of a fertilized egg. Instead, they work by delaying ovulation or making it harder for sperm to swim to the egg. (Copper IUDs, which are also a form of birth control, can prevent implantation.) The Green's contention that the pills cause abortions is a central pillar of their argument for gutting the contraception mandate. Yet, for years, Hobby Lobby's health insurance plans did cover Plan B and Ella. It was only in 2012, when the Greens considered filing a lawsuit against the Affordable Care Act, that they dropped these drugs from the plan.

A website Hobby Lobby set up to answer questions about the Supreme Court case states that its 401(k) plan comes with "a generous company match." In 2012, Hobby Lobby contributed $3.8 million to its employee savings plans, which had 13,400 employee participants at the beginning of that year.

The information on Hobby Lobby's 401(k) investments is included in the company's 2013 annual disclosure to the Department of Labor. The records contain a list, dated December 31, 2012, of 24 funds that were included in its employer-sponsored retirement plan. MorningStar, an investment research firm, provided Mother Jones with the names of the companies in nine of those funds as of December 31, 2012. Each fund's portfolio consists of at least dozens if not hundreds of different holdings.

All nine funds—which have assets of $73 million, or three-quarters of the Hobby Lobby retirement plan's total assets—contained holdings that clashed with the Greens' stated religious principles.

Hobby Lobby and the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, the conservative group that provided Hobby Lobby with legal representation, did not respond to questions about these investments or whether Hobby Lobby has changed its retirement plan.

In their Supreme Court complaint, Hobby Lobby's owners chronicle the many ways in which they avoid entanglements with objectionable companies. Hobby Lobby stores do not sell shot glasses, for example, and the Greens decline requests from beer distributors to back-haul beer on Hobby Lobby trucks.

Similar options exist for companies that want to practice what's sometimes called faith-based investing. To avoid supporting companies that manufacture abortion drugs—or products such as alcohol or pornography—religious investors can turn to a cottage industry of mutual funds that screen out stocks that religious people might consider morally objectionable. The Timothy Plan and the Ave Maria Fund, for example, screen for companies that manufacture abortion drugs, support Planned Parenthood, or engage in embryonic stem cell research. Dan Hardt, a Kentucky financial planner who specializes in faith-based investing, says the performances of these funds are about the same as if they had not been screened. But Hobby Lobby's managers either were not aware of these options or chose not to invest in them.