Zimmerman Trial

[zitothebrave]

I really have to admit reading what people have to say about it on facebook and other message boards is highly amusing. Pretty much 100% of the posts I've read aren't based in facts but rather in a bias slant people claim are facts. It's really sad that shoddy police work means we won't have the answer to what really happened that night. If the police treated that case as a potential murder, you would likely have known more about the details. Thankfully they didn't 100% botch it cause I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman should be in jail for being an idiot essentially. Under no circumstances should he have gotten out of his car and pursued Martin. And for me those events lead to Martin's death.

[goldfly]

I wish black people cared as much about black on black crime as much as they do about this case

[weso1]

I wish black people cared as much about black on black crime as much as they do about this case

I actually think they do... The problem is that the media and Al Sharpton could give two craps about it.

[zitothebrave]

I wish black people cared as much about black on black crime as much as they do about this case

Would be nice, but sadly the inner city embraces the gang culture, not realizing it's just another system putting the black man down.

[AerchAngel]

Would be nice, but sadly the inner city embraces the gang culture, not realizing it's just another system putting the black man down.

Zito nails it.

Reason why my dad moved us out of Chicago after I was two years old. Only when I was old enough to know better he then allowed me to visit Chicago alone and stay with family that is not into that culture.

[zitothebrave]

I worked with a few people in the bloods and sad they didn't see the gang as the problem, they only saw the cops and city government as problems. NOt realizing that gang warfare is why parts of Trenton are a ghost town, cause people with money don't want to be around that. Places that clean up the gang issues lead to better circumstances.

[50PoundHead]

I really have to admit reading what people have to say about it on facebook and other message boards is highly amusing. Pretty much 100% of the posts I've read aren't based in facts but rather in a bias slant people claim are facts. It's really sad that shoddy police work means we won't have the answer to what really happened that night. If the police treated that case as a potential murder, you would likely have known more about the details. Thankfully they didn't 100% botch it cause I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman should be in jail for being an idiot essentially. Under no circumstances should he have gotten out of his car and pursued Martin. And for me those events lead to Martin's death.

I basically agree with this. I'm a left-of-center consensus guy who has no trouble with the 2nd amendment. Own as many guns as you want. I frankly don't know why some people have turned it into something almost theological, but that's another matter. My point would be is that Zimmerman essentially "came to the nuisance" and there wouldn't have been a death if he hadn't been creeping on Martin.

[BlackwaterPark]

Imagine what good could be done in the world if people redirected their time and energy invested in this case, and put it to use. Who cares, the guy is dead, time to move on.

[50PoundHead]

Imagine what good could be done in the world if people redirected their time and energy invested in this case, and put it to use. Who cares, the guy is dead, time to move on.

I agree the media circus is ridiculous and distracts from any serious discussion (if there truly is any to be had) about the factors surrounding the case. But regardless of what news station you listen to, you get a daily recap.

[gilesfan]

I basically agree with this. I'm a left-of-center consensus guy who has no trouble with the 2nd amendment. Own as many guns as you want. I frankly don't know why some people have turned it into something almost theological, but that's another matter. My point would be is that Zimmerman essentially "came to the nuisance" and there wouldn't have been a death if he hadn't been creeping on Martin.

The problem is you can't convict someone of murder for getting out of his vehicle and on a guy.

I don't know if he initiated the altercation or not, but I haven't seen any evidence that states he did. If evidence is presented that Zimm initiated the altercation, he should go to jail.

[The Chosen One]

He should at least get manslaughter.

Murder I don't think they'll get him for.

[zitothebrave]

The problem is you can't convict someone of murder for getting out of his vehicle and on a guy.

I don't know if he initiated the altercation or not, but I haven't seen any evidence that states he did. If evidence is presented that Zimm initiated the altercation, he should go to jail.

I dont' think he should get murder (though maybe he would have with proper police) but he should get a manslaughter charge, even if it's just negligence.

[weso1]

The question is can it be proven that Zimmerman broke any laws. I'm not sure that has been proven.

Imagine how overcrowded jails would be if people were put in jail for being an idiot, a weirdo or an asshole.

[zitothebrave]

The question is can it be proven that Zimmerman broke any laws. I'm not sure that has been proven.

Imagine how overcrowded jails would be if people were put in jail for being an idiot, a weirdo or an asshole.

I think it's a viable question, and assuming Zimmerman gets off (highly likely) I think it should let everyone re-evaluate gun laws in this country. Based on evidence (Zimmerman's injuries, etc.) I think having more strict requirements to getting a gun should be looked at. This isn't a man who knew what to do in a situation like that. Let's assume Martin is dangerous, why would you follow him? That's not the job of a citizen. Every citizen JMO should go through a police like training before they can own a firearm, certainly before they can carry a firearm in public.

[BedellBrave]

Viable question? The only question. The problem is that so many got whipped up emotionally by the race baiters that they are now invested would-be vigilantes and really not that interested in whether or not Zimmerman has been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of 2nd degree murder or of manslaughter. They just want their piece of flesh.

[AerchAngel]

I think it's a viable question, and assuming Zimmerman gets off (highly likely) I think it should let everyone re-evaluate gun laws in this country. Based on evidence (Zimmerman's injuries, etc.) I think having more strict requirements to getting a gun should be looked at. This isn't a man who knew what to do in a situation like that. Let's assume Martin is dangerous, why would you follow him? That's not the job of a citizen. Every citizen JMO should go through a police like training before they can own a firearm, certainly before they can carry a firearm in public.

Nails it again. You are on a roll.

[57Brave]

"having more strict requirements to getting a gun should be looked at"

that view seems to be held across the board.
Is that correct?
,,,,,
having said that and laid up sick the past two days I have heard nothing that tells me beyond a shadow of a doubt Zimmerman is guilty of either 2nd degree or manslaughter. No one has proven it wasn't self defense.
All the reasons I'd like to see him hung up by his thumbs just don't fly in a court of law. He is innocent until proven guilty.
As it should be

[zitothebrave]

sturg won't.

And I'm not for eliminating guns (though in my perfect society I wouldn't have them) but I think that anyone who wants one should go through training before they can have one and certainly before going in public with one.

[yeezus]

sturg won't.

And I'm not for eliminating guns (though in my perfect society I wouldn't have them) but I think that anyone who wants one should go through training before they can have one and certainly before going in public with one.

I do wish guns were just eliminated completely, but that's impossible at this point so we need a very creative solution.

if zimmerman didn't follow the kid and get out of the car, no one would be dead. that's what seals it for me. if he had minded his own business and wasn't a racist prick, a young kid would not have lost his life. i love how fox new a while ago tried to slander the kid saying he had been found with weed before or weed baggies. the hell does that mean, and why is it relevant? it's got damn weed.

[weso1]

We definitely need a national discussion about guns. Haven't had one of those in ages.

[bravesnumberone]

O'Mara absolutely shredded the prosecution's argument.

[gilesfan]

It's going to be not guilty for sure.

[gilesfan]

I do wish guns were just eliminated completely, but that's impossible at this point so we need a very creative solution.

if zimmerman didn't follow the kid and get out of the car, no one would be dead. that's what seals it for me. if he had minded his own business and wasn't a racist prick, a young kid would not have lost his life. i love how fox new a while ago tried to slander the kid saying he had been found with weed before or weed baggies. the hell does that mean, and why is it relevant? it's got damn weed.

If if the thruth is that Martin attacked Zimmerman, then "if he wouldn't have attacked him, no one would be dead"

[yeezus]

If if the thruth is that Martin attacked Zimmerman, then "if he wouldn't have attacked him, no one would be dead"

that doesn't even really matter. was martin pursuing zimmerman? was he questioning why zimmerman was where he was? or was it zimmerman that wasn't minding his own business? if he had let the kid be to begin with and let him walk down the freaking street and not bothered him he wouldn't be on trial for killing someone.

the main point here is that a kid who was walking down the street doing nothing wrong is now dead. no longer living. you can't be level-headed and defend that. this whole thing is zimmerman's fault at the core, and he needs to be punished.

[gilesfan]

If Zimmerman did no physical harm to Martin, you can not place all the blame on him. You simply cannot. If a gun shop sells a guy and the buyer shoots someone, you don't charge the gun shop owner because "If he never sold the gun, no murder would have occured!"

Whether or not Zimmerman or Martin initiated the physical confrontation means everything in this case. If someone is following me in the mall and I beat the **** out of him, did I commit a crime?

[Bdawg2309]

urban twitter is going to be in uproar if zimmerman walks.
there was an article showing tweets of people saying they would riot,loot..etc... of course, i doubt some of them would
i think it's dumb how highly invested those people are in this case, it's just like the casey anthony case, doesn't matter if they end up being guilty or not, it's not going to change your life anyways.

[yeezus]

If Zimmerman did no physical harm to Martin, you can not place all the blame on him. You simply cannot. If a gun shop sells a guy and the buyer shoots someone, you don't charge the gun shop owner because "If he never sold the gun, no murder would have occured!"

Whether or not Zimmerman or Martin initiated the physical confrontation means everything in this case. If someone is following me in the mall and I beat the **** out of him, did I commit a crime?

That's not even close to the same circumstance. And that's the problem with the people who defend that dumbass zimmerman. they simply don't get the dynamic here.

zimmerman saw a black kid walking down the street. followed him. called the cops on him (who said DON'T DO ANYTHING and know he's a nut), got out of his car and confronted him. so even if martin did push him, or hit him first (which no one knows), being a scared black kid being followed by a(n) (obviously) racist white guy, he felt very threatened.

so who's fault was it? if zimmerman didn't pursue and stayed in his car, would this have happened? if he's set free, there's no guarantee he won't do it again, because he's clearly a nut who needs to be punished. him getting off scot-free would be a travesty.

[zitothebrave]

If if the thruth is that Martin attacked Zimmerman, then "if he wouldn't have attacked him, no one would be dead"

Maybe Martin saw someone with a gun tailing him and got defensive for fear of his life.

We can play speculation all you want but the truth is that Zimmerman getting out of his car and pursuing someone directly against the recommendation (since they can't issue orders) of a dispatcher and breaking the rules in many ways of the Neighbor Hood Watch Association rules, lead to someone getting killed. You can argue the starting point of it back and forth out of semantics (if Martin didn't get Skittles and Snapple, or suspended from school, blah blah blah) but the key turning point is him pursuing someone on foot.

Imagine if you would you're someone out of town only person on the streets and someone starts tailing you in the rain. Would that not make you a little on edge? Of course knowing Gilesfan he'd be armed and would just pull his gun out.

[gilesfan]

I wouldn't confront and beat someone up for following me.

[zitothebrave]

If you saw a gun on someone and they started reaching down for something what would your reaction be?

[50PoundHead]

The problem is you can't convict someone of murder for getting out of his vehicle and on a guy.

I don't know if he initiated the altercation or not, but I haven't seen any evidence that states he did. If evidence is presented that Zimm initiated the altercation, he should go to jail.

I'm not suggesting he be convicted. I don't think he is guilty of these particular charges. Only thing that would stick would be involuntary manslaughter and I think that the "stand your ground" law would trump that because of the murkiness of the altercation. If Zimmerman was truly in fear of losing his life or property, it appears the Florida "stand your ground" is a pretty strong peg to hang his hat on.

I'm suggesting that Zimmerman is a paranoid cop wannabe who was packing heat and that is not a recipe for good things. Whether or not he initiated the altercation doesn't mean much to me. If he believed Martin was up to no good, he should have called 911 and let it go at that. Problem is, it appears (and let me stress appears) that Zimmerman was a known goofball who called 911 at every time an Escalade drove by and officials didn't take him seriously (again). In the absence of an official response, Zimmerman inserted himself into the action and we all know the result. Tragic and Zimmerman will live with the results. And whatever "stand your ground" proponents contend, this guy is hardly the poster child for those types of laws.

[gilesfan]

If you saw a gun on someone and they started reaching down for something what would your reaction be?

There has not been any indication that this happened.

[gilesfan]

I'm not suggesting he be convicted. I don't think he is guilty of these particular charges. Only thing that would stick would be involuntary manslaughter and I think that the "stand your ground" law would trump that because of the murkiness of the altercation. If Zimmerman was truly in fear of losing his life or property, it appears the Florida "stand your ground" is a pretty strong peg to hang his hat on.

I'm suggesting that Zimmerman is a paranoid cop wannabe who was packing heat and that is not a recipe for good things. Whether or not he initiated the altercation doesn't mean much to me. If he believed Martin was up to no good, he should have called 911 and let it go at that. Problem is, it appears (and let me stress appears) that Zimmerman was a known goofball who called 911 at every time an Escalade drove by and officials didn't take him seriously (again). In the absence of an official response, Zimmerman inserted himself into the action and we all know the result. Tragic and Zimmerman will live with the results. And whatever "stand your ground" proponents contend, this guy is hardly the poster child for those types of laws.

Certainly sounds like Zimmerman was a parnoid wannabe cop. if he followed someone, confronted them, physcially assaulted them, and only shot when he was getting beat up, then he should be convicted. But, the evidence appears to show wannabe cop followed guy. Guy didn't appreciate it and was beyond the scope of the typical response for someone following you.

Getting out of the car was wrong, but not a convictable offense. Following someone on public property, again, maybe wrong, nothing to convict. The whole point of who I think should or shouldn't be convicted of something relies on who turned this into a physical confrontation.

[zitothebrave]

There has not been any indication that this happened.

We don't know if Trayvon saw the gun or not, cause he was shot and killed. But Zimmerman's own testimony was he reached for his cellphone in his pocket sooooo

[elmonthc]

urban twitter is going to be in uproar if zimmerman walks.
there was an article showing tweets of people saying they would riot,loot..etc... of course, i doubt some of them would
i think it's dumb how highly invested those people are in this case, it's just like the casey anthony case, doesn't matter if they end up being guilty or not, it's not going to change your life anyways.

White truck drivers better beware. Zimmerman is a joke.

[Krgrecw]

Zito, trayvon was on top of Zimmerman when he got shot. I seriously doubt Trayvon saw the gun due to the projectile angle. Even if Trayvon had seen the gun, the dude was on top hitting Zimmerman and it proves self defense.


I actually hope people do riot and loot and I hope those dumbasses get shot for it.

[zitothebrave]

Zito, trayvon was on top of Zimmerman when he got shot. I seriously doubt Trayvon saw the gun due to the projectile angle. Even if Trayvon had seen the gun, the dude was on top hitting Zimmerman and it proves self defense.


I actually hope people do riot and loot and I hope those dumbasses get shot for it.

According to Zimmerman they had a verbal exchange. You should read the defendants own words.

[Krgrecw]

Yes. I'm sure they had a verbal exchange. Most people do before they fight. What does that have to
Do with a shooting?

you think Martin may had saw the gun and acted in self defense?

[elmonthc]

Yes. I'm sure they had a verbal exchange. Most people do before they fight. What does that have to
Do with a shooting?

you think Martin may had saw the gun and acted in self defense?

If zimmerman wasnt trying to be a wannabe cop this wouldnt have hqppened. The kid was followed because he was black and provoked. Then he was shot because zimmerman is a *****.

[zitothebrave]

Yes. I'm sure they had a verbal exchange. Most people do before they fight. What does that have to
Do with a shooting?

you think Martin may had saw the gun and acted in self defense?

Why don't you read what I said to gilesfan. I'm assuming that it's hardly out of the question that when Martin and Zimmerman were looking at eachother and Martin asked him what's his problem or whatever that he could have seen Zimmerman's piece and when Zimmerman went to his pocket for his phone that he could be construed as going for a weapon.

I'm not saying that happened, but it's easy to see how it could happen.

[yeezus]

I wouldn't confront and beat someone up for following me.

if a you were a teenager and a grown man were following you in a van and then got out to confront you, you wouldn't put your hands on him?
you can't say what you would do. you've never been a scared black kid being followed by a dumbass white guy. zimmerman started the whole thing. without his actions, his following, his getting out of the car, he isn't getting beat up and an innocent person isn't dead. and we wanna let him off?

[yeezus]

everyone knows why zimmerman was following the kid, but just don't want to admit it. that's why fox new defends this piece of trash so hard. they know what he did was racist, applaud it, but want to pretend it wasn't. confronting someone for being black should not be tolerated in our country, yet it's about to be excused. it's embarrassing, really.

[gilesfan]

Martin had plenty of time to run away to his house. If he feared for his life or saw a gun, why did he circle back on Simmerman?

[gilesfan]

If he's racist, then it shows bad character. But that not a crime.

[Coredor]

If there has been recent crime, and you see an unfamiliar teenager dressed a certain way in your neighborhood you're going to wonder what they're up to. We all profile. Profiles aren't just about race, but a variety of factors. They don't prove anything, but they influence the way we view situations. The question is was George Zimmerman attacked and did he directly provoke it and was it necessary to use force to defend himself.

Frankly I haven't seen anything that proves he wasn't defending himself. He was exercising bad judgment and may have been prejudiced in his profiling, but that isn't a crime. It's just an all around sad situation which has hit nerves with a lot of people. Hopefully no one else gets hurt as a result of public reaction to this case.

[AerchAngel]

If there has been recent crime, and you see an unfamiliar teenager dressed a certain way in your neighborhood you're going to wonder what they're up to. We all profile. Profiles aren't just about race, but a variety of factors. They don't prove anything, but they influence the way we view situations. The question is was George Zimmerman attacked and did he directly provoke it and was it necessary to use force to defend himself.

Frankly I haven't seen anything that proves he wasn't defending himself. He was exercising bad judgment and may have been prejudiced in his profiling, but that isn't a crime. It's just an all around sad situation which has hit nerves with a lot of people. Hopefully no one else gets hurt as a result of public reaction to this case.

I believe he is not guilty of 2nd Degree murder or Manslaughter because he had to defend himself, but he is guilty of negligence and escalating it to the point of someone dying. Stupid all the way around. Joe Cop wannabe should have kept his behind in the car.

[Coredor]

The one thing I do wonder about with Zimmerman is the gun. Sometimes I think that having a weapon might make someone overly brave. He probably would have been more concerned about his own safety if he hadn't had it and never would have been jumped to start with. I do wonder what people are doing sometimes, but I don't follow them. It's not because of their rights though. It's because if I'm worried about them, the last thing I want to do is follow them around at night.

[AerchAngel]

The one thing I do wonder about with Zimmerman is the gun. Sometimes I think that having a weapon might make someone overly brave. He probably would have been more concerned about his own safety if he hadn't had it and never would have been jumped to start with. I do wonder what people are doing sometimes, but I don't follow them. It's not because of their rights though. It's because if I'm worried about them, the last thing I want to do is follow them around at night.

Great post.

[Krgrecw]

On the 911 call Zimmerman couldn't initially describe Martin's skin color. He didn't follow Martin because he was black, he didn't even know his skin color. It's on the 911 call

[The Chosen One]

On the 911 call Zimmerman couldn't initially describe Martin's skin color. He didn't follow Martin because he was black, he didn't even know his skin color. It's on the 911 call

Eh that's not the point.

I'm sure he narrowed it down in his mind to either being black or mexican.

Zimmerman's a bit more racist than we're being told.

[AerchAngel]

Eh that's not the point.

I'm sure he narrowed it down in his mind to either being black or mexican.

Zimmerman's a bit more racist than we're being told.

I agree but he did fire in self defense, which is allowable if TM was beating on him still, but I haven't followed the trial so I want to ask those who did, how far from GZ was TM when he was shot?

[Coredor]

I agree but he did fire in self defense, which is allowable if TM was beating on him still, but I haven't followed the trial so I want to ask those who did, how far from GZ was TM when he was shot?

They were on the ground together. If you believe Zimmerman's expert Martin was on top of them, but in some way shape or form they were on the ground fighting.

[BedellBrave]

I'll say it again since the vigilantes are still at work.
Viable question? The only question. The problem is that so many got whipped up emotionally by the race baiters that they are now invested would-be vigilantes and really not that interested in whether or not Zimmerman has been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of 2nd degree murder or of manslaughter. They just want their piece of flesh.

[zitothebrave]

On the 911 call Zimmerman couldn't initially describe Martin's skin color. He didn't follow Martin because he was black, he didn't even know his skin color. It's on the 911 call

Bull****.

[Runnin]

Just sayin'.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_george_zimmerman_dm_130607_wg.jpghttp://a.abcnews.com/images/GMA/abc_chaz_bono_gma_jef_110906_wg.jpg

[gilesfan]

Eh that's not the point.

I'm sure he narrowed it down in his mind to either being black or mexican.

Zimmerman's a bit more racist than we're being told.

What if the dude was Hispanic? Would he be racist?

[zitothebrave]

What if the dude was Hispanic? Would he be racist?

Because you're a minority you can't be racist? For reals? **** AA is more racist towards black people than half this board.

[AerchAngel]

Because you're a minority you can't be racist? For reals? **** AA is more racist towards black people than half this board.

True, I am a George Jefferson/Archie Bunker hybrid.

[AerchAngel]

Just sayin'.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_george_zimmerman_dm_130607_wg.jpghttp://a.abcnews.com/images/GMA/abc_chaz_bono_gma_jef_110906_wg.jpg

Best post in this thread.

Nice job.

[50PoundHead]

Love the pic. Only difference is Chaz likely has more testosterone.

Zimmerman will likely be acquitted and there will be reaction. I don't know how violent it will be, but will probably pass quickly.

But someone mentioned the Casey Anthony trial and all the hoopla that surrounded that and all the press coverage. I think one of the real problems facing this country now is that in the 24/7 news cycle, our airwaves get filled up with the "fill in the blank" expert on both sides of a relatively minor court case and, as a result, the case hits the national scene. Don't get me wrong. This is tragic. A kid is dead and the guy who killed him has to live with the fact that if he had acted differently, the kid would still be alive. I just wish the world would quit looking at this like a Supreme Court case.

[weso1]

All this talk about racial profiling and him being a wannabe cop are all distractions. The real questions are these: Who initiated the actual physical fight? Who was getting the crap beat out of them? Did the person getting the crap beat out of them reasonably fear his life could be in danger?

[zitothebrave]

Love the pic. Only difference is Chaz likely has more testosterone.

Zimmerman will likely be acquitted and there will be reaction. I don't know how violent it will be, but will probably pass quickly.

But someone mentioned the Casey Anthony trial and all the hoopla that surrounded that and all the press coverage. I think one of the real problems facing this country now is that in the 24/7 news cycle, our airwaves get filled up with the "fill in the blank" expert on both sides of a relatively minor court case and, as a result, the case hits the national scene. Don't get me wrong. This is tragic. A kid is dead and the guy who killed him has to live with the fact that if he had acted differently, the kid would still be alive. I just wish the world would quit looking at this like a Supreme Court case.

I have been blaming the 24 hour news networks and CSpan for issues like this all too often.

Let me put it this way, it was wrong there was no police investigation into this case and I get the parents bringing this to the national media's attention since I'm sure the local police had no interest at all and cited a dozen reasons why. I don't think there's anything wrong with this being played out on the national stage as more or less an interesting case about gun control since it appears way more than likely that Zimmerman was/isn't mentally stable.

But if anyone riots cause of this ruling they should be arrested and charged to the fullest extent of the law.

[Krgrecw]

Rasmussen released a poll last week that says both whites and blacks both believe that 'blacks are more racists than whites'

I believe that


Does it matter if Zimmerman followed Martin because Martin had the appearance of a minority walking in a neighborhood that was having home invasion problems. A guy walking close to houses? We'd all jump to conclusions if we saw that. if your walking down the street and 4 black guys with gang appearances are walking towards you, every white would think in thier head even for a split second that something could be up. You're a liar if you say you wouldn't be the least be apprehensive.

Every person of every color believes and buys into stereotypes and racism of others to an extent. No reason to fault Zimmerman when the majority of people in that instance would had thought the same thing even if if the thought was only for a second. Zimmerman thought it looked odd and called 911.

[zitothebrave]

All this talk about racial profiling and him being a wannabe cop are all distractions. The real questions are these: Who initiated the actual physical fight? Who was getting the crap beat out of them? Did the person getting the crap beat out of them reasonably fear his life could be in danger?

And aside from a few small abrasions on Martin's fist (no DNA under fingernails to suggest a prolonged struggle) some minor wounds on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman's word we have no real evidence. Good job popo

[zitothebrave]

Rasmussen released a poll last week that says both whites and blacks both believe that 'blacks are more racists than whites'

I believe that


Does it matter if Zimmerman followed Martin because Martin had the appearance of a minority walking in a neighborhood that was having home invasion problems. A guy walking close to houses? We'd all jump to conclusions if we saw that. if your walking down the street and 4 black guys with gang appearances are walking towards you, every white would think in thier head even for a split second that something could be up. You're a liar if you say you wouldn't be the least be apprehensive.

Every person of every color believes and buys into stereotypes and racism of others to an extent. No reason to fault Zimmerman when the majority of people in that instance would had thought the same thing even if if the thought was only for a second. Zimmerman thought it looked odd and called 911.

Sometimes I think you don't read what you write when it comes to things like this. If you saw a group of thugs walkign down the street would you follow them? You're a civilian your job is not to pursue people you may think are criminals. Zimmerman should have called 911 and let the police take care of business. He should never have left his vehicle, he should have never even thought of pursuing this kid.

[weso1]

And aside from a few small abrasions on Martin's fist (no DNA under fingernails to suggest a prolonged struggle) some minor wounds on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman's word we have no real evidence. Good job popo

The burden is on the state to prove without a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense. Do you think the state has proven that?

I think the cops did blow it though. When don't they?

[Julio3000]

Rasmussen released a poll last week that says both whites and blacks both believe that 'blacks are more racists than whites'

I believe that


Does it matter if Zimmerman followed Martin because Martin had the appearance of a minority walking in a neighborhood that was having home invasion problems. A guy walking close to houses? We'd all jump to conclusions if we saw that. if your walking down the street and 4 black guys with gang appearances are walking towards you, every white would think in thier head even for a split second that something could be up. You're a liar if you say you wouldn't be the least be apprehensive.

Every person of every color believes and buys into stereotypes and racism of others to an extent. No reason to fault Zimmerman when the majority of people in that instance would had thought the same thing even if if the thought was only for a second. Zimmerman thought it looked odd and called 911.

Whatever you think of Z's guilt or innocence of the charges, this seems indefensible.

[AerchAngel]

Love the pic. Only difference is Chaz likely has more testosterone.

Zimmerman will likely be acquitted and there will be reaction. I don't know how violent it will be, but will probably pass quickly.

But someone mentioned the Casey Anthony trial and all the hoopla that surrounded that and all the press coverage. I think one of the real problems facing this country now is that in the 24/7 news cycle, our airwaves get filled up with the "fill in the blank" expert on both sides of a relatively minor court case and, as a result, the case hits the national scene. Don't get me wrong. This is tragic. A kid is dead and the guy who killed him has to live with the fact that if he had acted differently, the kid would still be alive. I just wish the world would quit looking at this like a Supreme Court case.


Awesome post and I agree. He might not or shouldn't be guilty for defending himself but he is GUILTY for the actions he brought forth that cause this tragedy.

[zitothebrave]

The burden is on the state to prove without a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense. Do you think the state has proven that?

I think the cops did blow it though. When don't they?

I think he'll walk. Cause the criminal case is weak. But I think he's guilty of a crime as well. Not sure if it's manslaughter or murder 2, but he certainly committed a crime in the court of public opinion.

[AerchAngel]

I think he'll walk. Cause the criminal case is weak. But I think he's guilty of a crime as well. Not sure if it's manslaughter or murder 2, but he certainly committed a crime in the court of public opinion.

Negligence aka STUPIDITY, stay in car, circus would not have happened, TM would be alive and eating Skittles.

[50PoundHead]

Rasmussen released a poll last week that says both whites and blacks both believe that 'blacks are more racists than whites'

I believe that


Does it matter if Zimmerman followed Martin because Martin had the appearance of a minority walking in a neighborhood that was having home invasion problems. A guy walking close to houses? We'd all jump to conclusions if we saw that. if your walking down the street and 4 black guys with gang appearances are walking towards you, every white would think in thier head even for a split second that something could be up. You're a liar if you say you wouldn't be the least be apprehensive.

Every person of every color believes and buys into stereotypes and racism of others to an extent. No reason to fault Zimmerman when the majority of people in that instance would had thought the same thing even if if the thought was only for a second. Zimmerman thought it looked odd and called 911.

I agree. If it ends there, this is all a big pack of nothing.

I used to bartend, so I profiled all the time, but if they produced a valid ID that showed legal age, I had to serve them. But I'll readily admit that I profiled (and most of it wasn't based on race because it was pretty much a biker bar) and very few non-whites drank there. But I got pretty good at spotting trouble simply from demeanor.

krg, you do know that Rasmussen is pretty conservative outfit and their questions and sampling usually lead to a predictable, conservative-leaning result.

weso, those elements are not distractions in the larger sense because in the absence of either, there probably isn't an altercation. I agree they don't have a bearing on the work in front of the jury.

[AerchAngel]

I agree. If it ends there, this is all a big pack of nothing.

I used to bartend, so I profiled all the time, but if they produced a valid ID that showed legal age, I had to serve them. But I'll readily admit that I profiled (and most of it wasn't based on race because it was pretty much a biker bar) and very few non-whites drank there. But I got pretty good at spotting trouble simply from demeanor.

krg, you do know that Rasmussen is pretty conservative outfit and their questions and sampling usually lead to a predictable, conservative-leaning result.

weso, those elements are not distractions in the larger sense because in the absence of either, there probably isn't an altercation. I agree they don't have a bearing on the work in front of the jury.


I am fighting with a guy on my other Scout board about this and I agee with him, but he said that Zimmerman is not guily of anything, not even stupidity, common sense and think that TM ambushed him on purpose. So I asked him this quetion, if he stayed in the car, would this happen? He hasn't answer because the next question would be, why get out of the car to "follow" him knowing this can happen.

He is a racist though (the board gives it to him on every post and looking where he is from I have no doubt) so this doesn't surprised me. He said he agrees with my Conservative thinking but he wish I wouldn't call him a racist. I told him quit bringing topics about race and I will quit getting on him about it. His premise is TM is a thug and I told him thugs don't carry Skittles to a fight, they have either guns or knives, which I know because some of my family does even the ones in Minneapolis. They are thugs. TM was a teenager that could have turn out to be one, but at this time he was minding his own business and a person follow, either run and act like a female or find out who is creeping him and he saw a fat out of shape mall cop and he thought he can beat him. Problem is GZ had a gun and I assume did not initially go for it. Now if they had a talk before hand, this changes things, but one side is dead and we do not know that happened, but we do know GZ got his ass thoroughly kicked to the point he had no choice but to defend himself.

[weso1]

I could see the jury finding Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter if they don't think he needed to shoot him. They could believe he could have just fired his gun in the air or to the side and in all likelihood the fight would've ended. My only problem with that is that Zimmerman didn't know who he was dealing with when he was getting the crap beaten out of him. For all he knew he was dealing with a real criminal. I don't really have an issue with either of those verdicts, personally.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Jury has reached a verdict, thank goodness.

I'm predicting not guilty on second degree murder, but guilty on manslaughter.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Not guilty verdict

[zitothebrave]

What I more or less expected

[The Chosen One]

I was expecting manslaughter.

I must say, not a great showing for justice in our country tonight.

Don't think he murdered him, but manslaughter at the very least.

[CK86]

I'm looking forward to the riots.

[AerchAngel]

I was expecting manslaughter.

I must say, not a great showing for justice in our country tonight.

Don't think he murdered him, but manslaughter at the very least.

I disagree. Negligence attributing to manslaughter at most.

He was getting the sh*t kicked out of him so he had no recourse but to use deadly force, but negligence for getting out of the car and creeping him. A no no especially following a black dude, we just don't run, period. Fortunately he wasn't a thug that carried weapons or TM would be on the stand instead for shanking or shooting GZ to death.

[AerchAngel]

I'm looking forward to the riots.

There shouldn't be. If there is, don't blame me as a black person. I wouldn't and don't care about other parts of life, but hoodrats will be hoodrats, just don't come here and chastise me when my kind do stupid things like the lemmings most of us are.

[CrimsonCowboy]

I just hope cooler heads prevail. It doesn't take many to cause chaos.

[AerchAngel]

I just hope cooler heads prevail. It doesn't take many to cause chaos.

Well it is not sports and Zimmerman is not fully white, so they may stay on the porch and just shrug and say, life as always.

I am hoping at least. If riots in Minneapolis, Atlanta and Chicago happens, I will call family and hopefully my knucklehead nieces and nephews aren't involved.

[gilesfan]

Ive read a lot of ignorance about this trial. The case was investigate and the police felt theor was no evidence of a crime. The. Te mesia got involved and it forced the cops to try and convict without the evidence to support a conviction. It wasnt the police dragging their feet.

Zimmerman claims to get out of his car to check for w house number in order to tell the police where he is.

None of us know what happened. All we have is Zinmermans story which people are quick to not believe. If Zimmerman is telling the truth and there is no evidence to contradict what hea said, he simply cannot be convicted.

[BedellBrave]

What logical verdict could they have rendered other than "not guilty?" No way to argue beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self-defense.

[AerchAngel]

What logical verdict could they have rendered other than "not guilty?" No way to argue beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self-defense.

exactly. Only guilt GZ will have is going to be with him the rest of his life:

" I should not have gotten out of my vehicle"

[zitothebrave]

Ive read a lot of ignorance about this trial. The case was investigate and the police felt theor was no evidence of a crime. The. Te mesia got involved and it forced the cops to try and convict without the evidence to support a conviction. It wasnt the police dragging their feet.

Zimmerman claims to get out of his car to check for w house number in order to tell the police where he is.

None of us know what happened. All we have is Zinmermans story which people are quick to not believe. If Zimmerman is telling the truth and there is no evidence to contradict what hea said, he simply cannot be convicted.

That's one of like 3 reasons he claimed to leave the vehicle. He admitted on the effing 911 call that he was following Martin so there's no debate as to why he left his car. To follow Martin, not to locate a street sign or anything like that.

[gilesfan]

How do you know his intetion was to follow TM in foot? Simply bc he followed him in the car?

[zitothebrave]

How do you know his intetion was to follow TM in foot? Simply bc he followed him in the car?

Yes. Why would he need to give an address when he told the dispatcher where to contact him? Zimmerman changed his story so many times not even his supporters can keep it straight.

[The Chosen One]

How do you know his intetion was to follow TM in foot? Simply bc he followed him in the car?

lol

[weso1]

When are folks going to stop pretending to care about Trayvon Martin now that the trial is over? A couple days maybe?

[CrimsonCowboy]

Two thoughts I have from this case:

1. This country is so divided, it's not even funny. I know we all have differences. But, the divide is so great. Reading some things tonight, especially on Twitter, is troubling. I long for the day when this nation can be united, or at least the division to be closed. As long as the division is as wide as it is, this nation will continue down the road it's going.

2. The media in this country is full of morons.

[AerchAngel]

Two thoughts I have from this case:

1. This country is so divided, it's not even funny. I know we all have differences. But, the divide is so great. Reading some things tonight, especially on Twitter, is troubling. I long for the day when this nation can be united, or at least the division to be closed. As long as the division is as wide as it is, this nation will continue down the road it's going.

2. The media in this country is full of morons.


We need a 3rd party in the bad way, but if attempted they would get silenced quickly from both sides. They have the power and we are just lemmings, well not me, since I hate both and won't vote for either, but you get the picture.

[zitothebrave]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748048/interactive-map-of-trayvon-martin.html

Here Gilesfan, care to explain how his SUV was parked on the street, but he somehow managed to walk behind someone's house trying to figure out where he was? Apparently in that community you have to go to a shared back yard to find a house address you have to get out of your car and walk behind their houses.

Your ignorance is adorable.

[cajunrevenge]

Make no mistake, Trayvon was shot while committing a crime. Trayvon and his family have no one but Trayvon to blame for him being dead. Regardless of whether Zimmerman disobeyed the 911 operator does not give someone the right to attack him. The fact that Trayvon attacked him tells me that Zimmerman was right to suspect him. This whole ordeal is further proof the racism of the black community. If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon a hispanic kid the black community would be on Zimmerman's side.

[Julio3000]

Well, he was found not guilty. I was just writing this:

I doubt that Zimmerman will be convicted of murder. I think it is reasonable to say that, the evidence being what it is, the charge was a stretch. I'm puzzled at the number of people who seem willing to excuse his behavior, or to act as if "not murder" somehow absolves him of responsibility for what happened. This guy took action that was ill-advised, irresponsible, and dangerous...and that's at best. He was the motive force behind the incident.

[The Chosen One]

Make no mistake, Trayvon was shot while committing a crime. Trayvon and his family have no one but Trayvon to blame for him being dead. Regardless of whether Zimmerman disobeyed the 911 operator does not give someone the right to attack him. The fact that Trayvon attacked him tells me that Zimmerman was right to suspect him. This whole ordeal is further proof the racism of the black community. If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon a hispanic kid the black community would be on Zimmerman's side.

LOL what.

Trayvon was minding his own business, Zimmerman was being a nosy boy scout...

If Trayvon attacked him, it's because Zimmerman was being an idiot.

[57Brave]

Zimmerman getting his gun back - kinda explains the state of affairs. Doesn't it?

[Julio3000]

Make no mistake, Trayvon was shot while committing a crime.

According to a guy who was on trial for his murder, and absent any other living person with direct knowledge of the incident.

The fact that Trayvon attacked him tells me that Zimmerman was right to suspect him.

Leaving aside for a second that "fact" is an interesting choice of words, when an armed adult creeps on a 16-year-old kid who is engaged in nothing more suspicious than transit from the 7-11 to his house, the fact that you're willing to not only absolve the adult of responsibility but dehumanize the primary victim is pretty stunning.

This whole ordeal is further proof the racism of the black community.

16-year-old makes a run to the store, gets profiled and ultimately killed by an armed adult acting on a misplaced and quite possibly racist assumption. Many people feel as if an injustice has occurred. Yes, this definitely proves that the black community is straight-up racist.

Again, the verdict is understandable, given the charge and the IMO obvious presence of reasonable doubt. That fact supports absolutely nothing that you've written.

[zitothebrave]

LOL what.

Trayvon was minding his own business, Zimmerman was being a nosy boy scout...

If Trayvon attacked him, it's because Zimmerman was being an idiot.

Martin if he assaulted Zimmerman unprovoked deserves his portion of the blame. Unfortunately the only witness to the crime is dead. All the other eye witnesses counter each other's arguments. For all any of us know ZImmerman may have tried to pretend to be a cop and try to "arrest" Martin, we don't know. Only thing I do know is we're dealing with poor decisions, but the first poor decision was the adult stalking a child.

[Bdawg2309]

How hasn't the falcons gm/owner banished roddy white from twitter
That dude tweets the stupidest **** and his tweet today was pathetic. No way he isn't fined, or suspended by goodell.

[zitothebrave]

What he said was Super dumb. Seriously. Ican think of about 2 million smarter things to tweet, including Jason Heyward doesn't love baseball.

[cajunrevenge]

According to a guy who was on trial for his murder, and absent any other living person with direct knowledge of the incident.

If there is any evidence to contradict what Zimmerman said I am willing to hear it. Zimmerman passed a voice stress test that is used to help determine if someone is lying. Obviously that test cant be taken as 100% proof but it would be enough for most people if he failed it. The physical evidence and a witness seeing Trayvon on top of Zimmerman supports what he claimed.

Leaving aside for a second that "fact" is an interesting choice of words, when an armed adult creeps on a 16-year-old kid who is engaged in nothing more suspicious than transit from the 7-11 to his house, the fact that you're willing to not only absolve the adult of responsibility but dehumanize the primary victim is pretty stunning.

So if your in a neighborhood that has had several burglaries and you see someone leisurely walking through the grass when its raining and looking at the houses thats not suspicious? Yeah thats Zimmermans account of things and suspicion can be a grey area but its really irrelevant anyways. The Police were called 400 times over 13 months, with an amount like that its clear they called the cops at the slightest bit of suspicion. Not a single time that Zimmerman called the cops did he physically try to stop the suspect and there is zero evidence that he tried that with Trayvon. Whether you think Zimmerman acted irresponsibly or not does not mean he had to let Trayvon beat the **** out of him. Who knows how bad his injuries would be if he didnt shoot him.

16-year-old makes a run to the store, gets profiled and ultimately killed by an armed adult acting on a misplaced and quite possibly racist assumption. Many people feel as if an injustice has occurred. Yes, this definitely proves that the black community is straight-up racist.

And outside of Trayvon being black and Zimmerman looking white there is no evidence to suggest race had anything to do with this. 1/5th of the community was black, its would not be uncommon for him to see a black person in this neighborhood. I havent heard from any of them saying Zimmerman called the cops on them for no reason. Zimmerman is being called a racist on nothing more than his skin color being white. That in itself is racist. I call the black community racist for publicly convicting Zimmerman despite a lack of evidence against him. I can understand the outrage that he wasnt put on trial. That I get. But they made up their mind because Trayvon was black and Zimmerman looks white, thats all the facts they need to convict him. Nothing short of Trayvon crawling out of his grave and siding with Zimmerman would change their minds. There is no doubt in my mind that if Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was white that the NAACP and all those people upset over the verdict would be supporting Zimmerman. That is what makes them racist to me.

[Yogi44]

On twitter this morning, someone posted this. Sums it up best IMO.

"If you trusted the justice system to find a man guilty, you must trust it when it finds a man not guilty, or it's just partiality you seek"

[gilesfan]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748048/interactive-map-of-trayvon-martin.html

Here Gilesfan, care to explain how his SUV was parked on the street, but he somehow managed to walk behind someone's house trying to figure out where he was? Apparently in that community you have to go to a shared back yard to find a house address you have to get out of your car and walk behind their houses.

Your ignorance is adorable.

I can't open that link. I've seen the map of the property and the re enactment of what happened up until The confrontation. I've also heard the 911 tape in connection with where Zommerman was at the time. Ive seen the re enactment at the same time of night as the night of the crime.

There is nothing to dispute what Zimmerman said happened. It's plausible he was trying to find an address thinking amartin lost him after turning the corner.

Its really an unfortunate situation. Why do people automatically assume that Martin wasn't up to something and Zimmerman is a monster? Basically people are accusing Zimmerman of lying about the events and yet there was nothing in thr trial to dispute what Zimmerman claims happened?

It seems people want to believe that Zimmerman stalked TM, started a fight with him, and then shot hi. When he was getting beat up. What evidence shows Zimmerman confronting TM?

[gilesfan]

http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-76656966/

[gilesfan]

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Trayvon-Martin-cell-phone-extraction-report-one-10-pages.pdf

[zitothebrave]

I can't open that link. I've seen the map of the property and the re enactment of what happened up until The confrontation. I've also heard the 911 tape in connection with where Zommerman was at the time. Ive seen the re enactment at the same time of night as the night of the crime.

There is nothing to dispute what Zimmerman said happened. It's plausible he was trying to find an address thinking amartin lost him after turning the corner.

Its really an unfortunate situation. Why do people automatically assume that Martin wasn't up to something and Zimmerman is a monster? Basically people are accusing Zimmerman of lying about the events and yet there was nothing in thr trial to dispute what Zimmerman claims happened?

It seems people want to believe that Zimmerman stalked TM, started a fight with him, and then shot hi. When he was getting beat up. What evidence shows Zimmerman confronting TM?

I never said that Zimmerman confronted Martin, no one except Zimmerman or Martin knows what went on before blows were exchanged as the point where Martin was on top of ZImmerman is where the first eye witness came in. Though everyone admits there was a verbal exchange of some sort. For all we know Zimmerman did start the altercation, or maybe Martin did, unfortunately we'll never know cause the only other person involved is dead.

But that wasn't the point I was contesting. I was contesting your point that ZImmerman was "getting out to check a house number" which clearly wasn't the case if you have half a brain. Unless Martin whooped his ass from the street, then they got into a verbal altercation between people's houses, then Martin whooped his ass back there, which I consider highly unlikely.

[zitothebrave]

The Zimmerman can do no wrong people are kinda sad. Sure Martin shouldn't have attacked him if that's what happened, but for all we know Zimmerman may have attacked first, unfortunately there's not evidence one way or the other for who started the fight aside from the cellphone conversation which brought no evidence of any real sort at all except Martin knew ZImmerman was following him and he asked him what's his problem or something like that and Zimmerman said something like what are you doing here.

Basically the question is, is Zimmerman partially to blame and Martin is more to blame (which was the defenses claim) or is Zimmerman all to blame. We'll never know unfortunately, but what we do know is that a man killed a kid and it was 100% avoidable if he acted like a person should have.

[BedellBrave]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMZ3O8CMl2HTDO5Ci_i1tE1OS6KPDS2 885Z2X4ppzuzC2lnuVgxQ

[zitothebrave]

No one said that ZImmerman didn't lose the fist fight Bedell. But if he started the fight and then got whooped, then pulled out the gun, he'd be in jail for at least manslaughter. Problem is that the prosecution couldn't prove he did anything criminal before shooting Martin.

[BedellBrave]

We'll never know who started the fight. What we do know is that if Martin hadn't beaten the ****e out of Zimmerman then this may have been avoidable, to use your own phrasing. Why is that you and the other vigillantes don't say that?

No he wouldn't and no he isn't.

[Runnin]

But if he started the fight and then got whooped, then pulled out the gun, he'd be in jail for at least manslaughter.Who starts a fistfight when they have a gun in their pocket? I think Zimm provoked this guy by following him around the neighborhood and then by saying something like "What are you doing around here?" Just two punks trying to be tough guys but only one had a gun.

I say make Zimm a policeman for a day and give him the hood to patrol.

[BedellBrave]

They were both punks. They both erred. Martin is dead. And the case for self-defense was easily made. Sucks. But that's it.

[zitothebrave]

We'll never know who started the fight. What we do know is that if Martin hadn't beaten the ****e out of Zimmerman then this may have been avoidable, to use your own phrasing. Why is that you and the other vigillantes don't say that?

No he wouldn't and no he isn't.

If someone started a fight with me I would fight back. I'd never assume they had a gun or knife they'd pull on me if they started losing.

[AerchAngel]

This is a white vs black, Democrat vs Republic scenario that our "Travon could be my son" person started.

It ended like it should, not guilty. The people who are guilty is NBC, the "Travon could be my son" group who instigated this witch hunt.

GZ made a mistake by getting out of his car, that is the only mistake he made and a critical one. His life is forever messed up and will atone for accidentally through his own fault of killing a teenager. There is nothing more any of us on here out there can say or do to change this fact. His conscience is crucifying him as I speak.

Not only he will be punished but all those who supported TM will be punished for thinking irrationally. It TM did not turn around and attack GZ but instead talk to him in a normal way, this would not have escalated. Kids now a days want to be all big and bad when they see someone who looks weaker to them. Would TM pulled that on me? No, I am much bigger badder, silverback type of gorilla that would pummeled him, but GZ was the opposite, a Michelin man type doughboy so TM thought "This cracka is following me, for what" and confronted him. I honestly believe this is the case and about 80 percent of my race would have probably thought the same way, well maybe more. We have that innate feeling of being followed if not the po po we confront them. I would have confronted GZ but I would not have attacked because of how was parented when I grew up. Violence is the last thing my parents told me to use, even to this day, I would rather talk then beat or kill you which I could do.

[zitothebrave]

This was black/white way before Obama said a peep. People made their opinions when the case was made public way before Obama made a peep.

And you don't know if that's the only thing he did wrong, that's just the only thing we can prove he did wrong, which is why he's not in jail.

In the end we can specualte one way or another what happened but only 2 men really know, ZImmerman and Martin, and one of them is dead.

[AerchAngel]

This was black/white way before Obama said a peep. People made their opinions when the case was made public way before Obama made a peep.

And you don't know if that's the only thing he did wrong, that's just the only thing we can prove he did wrong, which is why he's not in jail.

In the end we can specualte one way or another what happened but only 2 men really know, ZImmerman and Martin, and one of them is dead.

Zeet you are one of the smartest people on this board and have some common sense but this post kind of disagree with my assessment. He stays in the car, nothing happens. THAT IS THE ONLY MISTAKE HE MADE. He got out of the car, other things can happen and did. If you eliminated the first equation will open the doors to many others, that is why I said what I said. So your "you don't know if that's the only thing he did wrong" is kind of moot at that point.

[zitothebrave]

Zeet you are one of the smartest people on this board and have some common sense but this post kind of disagree with my assessment. He stays in the car, nothing happens. THAT IS THE ONLY MISTAKE HE MADE. He got out of the car, other things can happen and did. If you eliminated the first equation will open the doors to many others, that is why I said what I said. So your "you don't know if that's the only thing he did wrong" is kind of moot at that point.

That's the only mistake we know he made. If he stalked him and confronted him and attacked Martin than he did more wrong than just leaving his car. But we don't know what he did.

[AerchAngel]

That's the only mistake we know he made. If he stalked him and confronted him and attacked Martin than he did more wrong than just leaving his car. But we don't know what he did.

Again, stay in car, nothing happens. After that, other things could happen and did, but there is no evidence of such happening so the only assumption is TM attack GZ on his way back and we know the rest of the story.

[Julio3000]

We'll never know who started the fight. What we do know is that if Martin hadn't beaten the ****e out of Zimmerman then this may have been avoidable, to use your own phrasing. Why is that you and the other vigillantes don't say that?

No he wouldn't and no he isn't.

Hmmm.

I'm a little bummed out by your take on this, BB. I expect more from you, I guess.

[gilesfan]

I never said that Zimmerman confronted Martin, no one except Zimmerman or Martin knows what went on before blows were exchanged as the point where Martin was on top of ZImmerman is where the first eye witness came in. Though everyone admits there was a verbal exchange of some sort. For all we know Zimmerman did start the altercation, or maybe Martin did, unfortunately we'll never know cause the only other person involved is dead.

But that wasn't the point I was contesting. I was contesting your point that ZImmerman was "getting out to check a house number" which clearly wasn't the case if you have half a brain. Unless Martin whooped his ass from the street, then they got into a verbal altercation between people's houses, then Martin whooped his ass back there, which I consider highly unlikely.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything other than getting a house number. It's said on the tape.

[BedellBrave]

Hmmm.

I'm a little bummed out by your take on this, BB. I expect more from you, I guess.


Go ahead and elaborate. What do you want said? As I've repeatedly stated, both Martin and Zimmerman erred. And yet, there's nothing in this case that's been disclosed that warrants anything but acquittal. It's a tragedy all around.

[zitothebrave]

There is no evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything other than getting a house number. It's said on the tape.

What tape? The 911 call where he ADMITTED TO BE FOLLOWING HIM OUTSIDE OF THE CAR?

Seriously, stop being obtuse.

[BedellBrave]

If someone started a fight with me I would fight back. I'd never assume they had a gun or knife they'd pull on me if they started losing.

What you would have done or not done is immaterial. You've got a guy that's getting his arse kicked and he defends himself with his gun. He thinks its self-defense. How do you prove it was otherwise? If it wasn't point blank, if there weren't wounds on Zimmerman, if someone hadn't seen Martin on top, then maybe. But the case was what it was and the evidence was what it was.

[Julio3000]

If there is any evidence to contradict what Zimmerman said I am willing to hear it.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is no evidence to contradict it. That's part of the essential weakness of the state's case. That being the case, why wouldn't you assume that Zimmerman's story—since it has evolved since it was first told—has been shaped to fit the narrative that would support his self-defense argument? Nobody else knows except the dead guy. The witness saw Zimmerman getting the worst of the fight for a few seconds, but did not see who initiated the confrontation nor how the altercation developed. It was enough to prevent him from being convicted of murder—which, as I said, is appropriate—but nothing more than that.

So if your in a neighborhood that has had several burglaries and you see someone leisurely walking through the grass when its raining and looking at the houses thats not suspicious?

I don't know. Are you seeing what you think you're seeing? Are you seeing someone behaving suspiciously, or just seeking shelter from the rain? The point is, you don't know. Zimmerman thought he did.

That there had been crime in the neighborhood still doesn't excuse what Zimmerman did. Neither does it explain why Zimmerman made the assumption that the kid was a criminal. He identified him as a black teenager and referred to him as a "****ing punk" and stated—before PURSUING HIM—that "these assholes always get away."

Not a single time that Zimmerman called the cops did he physically try to stop the suspect and there is zero evidence that he tried that with Trayvon.

Irrelevant. Plus, he got out of the car and followed him when he ran. How is that inconsistent with trying to stop him?

Whether you think Zimmerman acted irresponsibly or not does not mean he had to let Trayvon beat the **** out of him. Who knows how bad his injuries would be if he didnt shoot him.

Sure, play that game all day. Who knows? Maybe Trayvon would have killed him with his bare hands. Whatever. If you want to believe that this guy was anything other than an irresponsible clown and a menace to the community that he was ostensibly protecting, that's up to you. Just know that you're basing your opinion on only one side of the story, and whatever darkness apparently lies in your own heart, if you choose to believe that the fact that they fought somehow proves that Z was justified in pursuing him.

You said that Martin's allegedly attacking him proved that he was right to follow him. If he was justified in using deadly force in the fight, wouldn't Martin have been justified in protecting himself if he were confronted by an armed guy? If Zimmerman attempted to restrain him or went for his gun, wouldn't Martin have been justified for hitting him, or jumping on him if he went down? The dude had a gun and was stalking him. There's no evidence that it happened that way, but there's only Zimmerman's testimony to indicate that it didn't.

That is what makes them racist to me.

As for racism—some people (of different races and backgrounds) were justifiably upset because it appeared that the person who is arguably responsible for the confrontation was not being held responsible for his actions. They felt that he should have been arrested and charged. It's not a crazy, unreasonable belief, nor is it racist.

[BedellBrave]

And it's just another glaring example of journalistic malfeasance (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/13/Media-Zimmerman-Coverage-Rap-Sheet).

And too many people rushed to judgment. And now aren't willing to admit it. So they keep hammering away.

Are young black men profiled? Yes. Is there a discussion needed about that in our society? Yes. Do race-baiters at times have a point? Yes. But not here. They (Sharpton and his ilk) and the press (ready to make hay on this one) and POTUS for flapping his mouth and all their willing accomplices jumped the shark.

[BedellBrave]

Innocent until proven guilty. He wasn't proven guilty. End of story. Stop.

[gtcway]

What's wrong with profiling? Law enforcement officials all around the world do it every day. I don't like it and wish it wasn't the case, but there's a reason why people who dress a certain way or act a certain way are singled out. It's because previous trends suggest they might be doing something wrong. Is that always the case? Absolutely not.
Should GZ go to prison for killing TM? I don't know, you don't know, Jessie Jackson sure doesn't know. The law says that the prosecuting had to prove it without a reasonable doubt. There was absolutely no where near enough evidence to convict him for murder. That's why the police didn't arrest him in the beginning. The media is probably the only reason he even faced a trial. As we all know, any time a white guy kills a black guy, he only did it because he was black.

[BedellBrave]

Didn't say profiling was wrong. Just that it happens and a discussion is needed.

No, GZ, shouldn't go to prison for killing Martin, based on the evidence presented. As you say the prosecution in no way proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

After all this show, the jury determined the same thing the police did originally.

[Julio3000]

Go ahead and elaborate. What do you want said? As I've repeatedly stated, both Martin and Zimmerman erred. And yet, there's nothing in this case that's been disclosed that warrants anything but acquittal. It's a tragedy all around.

I think we both agree that, based on the self-defense standard and lack of eyewitness to the confrontation, a verdict of "not guilty" is appropriate.

You've been, er, charitable enough to say that Zimmerman erred. But you've been pretty rigorous about making the statement that both people were at fault. (Note that I don't say "both men.") You seem to uncritically accept Zimmerman's version of events.

Do you think that, regardless of acquittal of a murder charge, Zimmerman was the motive force behind Martin's death? Do you think that Zimmerman told the whole truth? Do you think it was sad or just for the defense and the RW media to portray Martin as a thug?

[Julio3000]

And it's just another glaring example of journalistic malfeasance (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/13/Media-Zimmerman-Coverage-Rap-Sheet).

And too many people rushed to judgment. And now aren't willing to admit it. So they keep hammering away.

Are young black men profiled? Yes. Is there a discussion needed about that in our society? Yes. Do race-baiters at times have a point? Yes. But not here. They (Sharpton and his ilk) and the press (ready to make hay on this one) and POTUS for flapping his mouth and all their willing accomplices jumped the shark.

So I guess you're definitely going with an opinion that race played absolutely no part in this?

The only thing that made this a questionable charge was the relatively low bar for self-defense in Florida. In many other jurisdictions, it could have been quite different.

But you're seriously gonna say that even though the prosecution overreached with a murder charge, that there was no reason to arrest him? For anything? After he followed and ultimately killed a pedestrian?

[Julio3000]

Innocent until proven guilty. He wasn't proven guilty. End of story. Stop.

Yeah. Morality or personal responsibility never enters the equation.

Just ask OJ.

[Julio3000]

I've been inside all day, scared of the !!ZOMG!! RIOTS that talk radio told me were going to happen if Zimmerman were acquitted.

[AerchAngel]

What's wrong with profiling? Law enforcement officials all around the world do it every day. I don't like it and wish it wasn't the case, but there's a reason why people who dress a certain way or act a certain way are singled out. It's because previous trends suggest they might be doing something wrong. Is that always the case? Absolutely not.
Should GZ go to prison for killing TM? I don't know, you don't know, Jessie Jackson sure doesn't know. The law says that the prosecuting had to prove it without a reasonable doubt. There was absolutely no where near enough evidence to convict him for murder. That's why the police didn't arrest him in the beginning. The media is probably the only reason he even faced a trial. As we all know, any time a white guy kills a black guy, he only did it because he was black.

Everyone profiles, even I on skinheads and those with numerous tats and bald heads and my own race. I don't trust anyone at anytime.

[gtcway]

Everyone profiles, even I on skinheads and those with numerous tats and bald heads and my own race. I don't trust anyone at anytime.

At least you discriminate equally :) I'm white and I like to think I do as well.

[AerchAngel]

At least you discriminate equally :) I'm white and I like to think I do as well.

Oh I do, more than you know. I trust people on here more than I do in the real world. I even trust Steak Sauce and not carry a weapon if were around him. I am always vigilant on my surroundings if you are black, white or muslim, you are going to get profiled by me, even more so if I have my family with me.

[57Brave]

Just think if Zimmerman had to go through a thorough background check before being given a carry permit (let alone be allowed to purchase)
Trayvon would be alive and y'all be talkin' bout how Obama is the devil

That's as civil as it gets today

[AerchAngel]

Just think if Zimmerman had to go through a thorough background check before being given a carry permit (let alone be allowed to purchase)
Trayvon would be alive and y'all be talkin' bout how Obama is the devil

That's as civil as it gets today

I hate to admit, but Steak Sauce is right. I don't think he would have gotten one.

[zitothebrave]

I've been inside all day, scared of the !!ZOMG!! RIOTS that talk radio told me were going to happen if Zimmerman were acquitted.

Yeah I saw these black people looting a moving van today, taking all the stuff with their names into an apartment! Must be section 8 too.

[AerchAngel]

Yeah I saw these black people looting a moving van today, taking all the stuff with their names into an apartment! Must be section 8 too.

Fail!

[gilesfan]

Just think if Zimmerman had to go through a thorough background check before being given a carry permit (let alone be allowed to purchase)
Trayvon would be alive and y'all be talkin' bout how Obama is the devil

That's as civil as it gets today

And Zimmerman could be dead

[57Brave]

or turn into a zombie --- or turn into a unicorn with magical powers -- or maybe martin has a gun too, wouldn't that be cool then they could have just shot it out in the rain in those backyards around the cloths lines, old rusted tricycles,random tomato plants and stuff.

And Zimmerman could be dead. ----------- Seriously?

Or maybe, without the gun, Zimmerman stays in his GD car -- whatcha think bout that cowboy? That seems to work for everybody

[zitothebrave]

And Zimmerman could be dead

Lol.

[BedellBrave]

Just think if Zimmerman had to go through a thorough background check before being given a carry permit (let alone be allowed to purchase)
Trayvon would be alive and y'all be talkin' bout how Obama is the devil

That's as civil as it gets today

He did didn't he? Isn't a background check along with verification of training a part of the Florida conceal carry law? Maybe it is not.

[BedellBrave]

I think we both agree that, based on the self-defense standard and lack of eyewitness to the confrontation, a verdict of "not guilty" is appropriate.

You've been, er, charitable enough to say that Zimmerman erred. But you've been pretty rigorous about making the statement that both people were at fault. (Note that I don't say "both men.") You seem to uncritically accept Zimmerman's version of events.

Do you think that, regardless of acquittal of a murder charge, Zimmerman was the motive force behind Martin's death? Do you think that Zimmerman told the whole truth? Do you think it was sad or just for the defense and the RW media to portray Martin as a thug?

Yeah, I notice your use of "people." Course a 17 year old can do some damage. Are you implying otherwise?

And yes, both were at fault. Why folks like you won't say that they were is odd to me.

And what's this "you seem?" Do I believe everything Zimmerman has said? I doubt it. I do believe he was getting beat pretty well. And that he shot Martin at close range and that Martin was on top of him. You don't?

Yes, I think Martin was a young thug. And Zimmerman a creepy-ass cracker (well not really a "cracker" - what's the term? Oh yes, "white hispanic").

Do you think it was sad or just for the liberals and LW media to portray Zimmerman as they have?

Motive force? Like the only one at fault? No, why should I?

[Julio3000]

This would probably be a good time to mention that he was charged with a felony for assaulting a police officer. The charge was reduced through pre-trial intervention and alcohol counseling. Domestic violence charge, too. But, you know, Trayvon Martin was more likely to have instigated violence.

[AerchAngel]

He did didn't he? Isn't a background check along with verification of training a part of the Florida conceal carry law? Maybe it is not.

I don't think it is thorough like other states. I personally would not have allowed him to have one because of his mental issues.

In saying that, I am glad he had one because he would have traded places with TM if it occurred and he had no weapon. TM had no business attacking him, question, yes, attacking no. But if you look at our race experiences and being young and foolhardy, most of us will attack if we see a weaker person.

But, GZ was stupid in this whole ordeal as well by getting out of the car.

I have no sides in this and the correct verdict was issued. I just question the common sense on both sides and that is why we had a tragic result.

[BedellBrave]

So I guess you're definitely going with an opinion that race played absolutely no part in this?

The only thing that made this a questionable charge was the relatively low bar for self-defense in Florida. In many other jurisdictions, it could have been quite different.

But you're seriously gonna say that even though the prosecution overreached with a murder charge, that there was no reason to arrest him? For anything? After he followed and ultimately killed a pedestrian?


Race didn't play the role media and the race baiters have wanted it to play. I agree, I believe, with the FBI on this count. Why shouldn't I?

How exactly would it have been different from a self-defense angle? Do certain jurisdictions require a certain level of blows? Or amount of blood shed? Or types of weapons being used? Seriously, what do you have in mind here?

They overreached on manslaughter too. As the jury determined. As the original cops did as well.

What are you going to arrest him for?

[BedellBrave]

This would probably be a good time to mention that he was charged with a felony for assaulting a police officer. The charge was reduced through pre-trial intervention and alcohol counseling. Domestic violence charge, too. But, you know, Trayvon Martin was more likely to have instigated violence.

Sure that's fine. Mention away. Both were at fault. Both were sinners. Both were stupid. Both had pasts that would lead others to infer guilt in this incident. Exactly.

[Julio3000]

Yeah, I notice your use of "people." Course a 17 year old can do some damage. Are you implying otherwise?

I differentiate between adults and teenagers for reasons that should be obvious: discretion, judgement, etc.

And yes, both were at fault. Why folks like you won't say that they were is odd to me.

Oh, did I say that?

If Martin attacked him, he certainly bore some responsibility. Still, you act like it's totally normal for an armed guy to stalk a kid. You state that it was appropriate for Zimmerman to use deadly force because he thought his life was being threatened, but not what the appropriate course of action would be for a person who was being suspiciously and aggressively pursued by an armed man for no apparent reason.

Do I believe everything Zimmerman has said? I doubt it.

OK. Well, that says a lot.

I do believe he was getting beat pretty well. And that he shot Martin at close range and that Martin was on top of him. You don't?

I believe that is the likeliest scenario, which is why he wasn't convicted of murder. I also believe that Zimmerman's account of the altercation sounds like hogwash, and that no one else (including me...and you) can say with any confidence what actually happened. Further, that the cops initially bent over backwards to accomodate him.

Yes, I think Martin was a young thug.

Por que?

Do you think it was sad or just for the liberals and LW media to portray Zimmerman as they have?

How? As being a guy with a history of violence and an inappropriate sense of entitlement to do a job better suited for professionals? As a "creepy-ass cracker?" Hell, you agreed with that assessment. I think that intimations of racism, unsupported by evidence, were inappropriate, but I allow some latitude there because of the circumstantial appearance of profiling and media reports of neighbors who suggested that he was capable of same.

Motive force? Like the only one at fault? No, why should I?

As being the primary reason for the incident. Not the only one at fault.

"These assholes always get away..."

[cajunrevenge]

Try watching this fairly objective overview of the case without the media's race baiting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?client=mv-google&hl=en&gl=US&v=bF-Ax5E8EJc&nomobile=1

The verdict was correct. He is not a racist and to portray him as such is either ignorant or racist in itself.

[gilesfan]

This would probably be a good time to mention that he was charged with a felony for assaulting a police officer. The charge was reduced through pre-trial intervention and alcohol counseling. Domestic violence charge, too. But, you know, Trayvon Martin was more likely to have instigated violence.

And Martin got suspended from school for fighting. He's also known to both participate and referree in fights. Had pics on his phone of marijuana plants (and smoking weed) and texts of him discussing buying a gun (along with a picture of someones hand holding a gun). Martin has tools common with burglary in his school locker and pictures of a large cache of ***elry that could match ***elry that was previously stolen.

Trayvons Mom even kicked him out of the house to go live with his father because of the trouble he was getting in.

So I respect having an opinion on it. But, to think Zimmerman was likely the instigator based on a prior charge,then you are probably ignoring Trayvon Martins history as well.

[gilesfan]

I can't help but think the portrayal of Martin being an innocent kid and GZ being a racist white honkey out for renegeance played a large part int he public opinion of the case.

How much of either is true?

Did Zimmerman impede Martin's progress in going home? Could Martin have gone home and never even had an altercation with Zimmerman? Zimmerman indicated on the call that Martin had gotten away (and Martin was in the direction of his house), what stopped him from going home? How would Zimmerman have caught up with him?

And yes, it's certainly possible that Martin could have killed ZImmerman. Why is that not the case? Do people not die in fights? Do they not get brain injuries when pounded against concrete?

[weso1]

There's no doubt that the media tried to portray Zimmerman as a racist mercenary and Martin as some innocent little boy.

They also trumped up the racial aspect of the case. Liberal politicians did the same... mainly for votes and/or attention. They are still doing it now, even though there's no real evidence any of this from anyone was racially motivated. Just a bunch of wild speculation really. The media want to fan the flames of racism for ratings.

In the end we've spent a tremendous amount of time and resources on a trial that should never have been national news in the first place. In the end this entire discussion is just silly and relatively pointless. We are all now a little bit dumber for discussing it.

[AerchAngel]

There's no doubt that the media tried to portray Zimmerman as a racist mercenary and Martin as some innocent little boy.

They also trumped up the racial aspect of the case. Liberal politicians did the same... mainly for votes and/or attention. They are still doing it now, even though there's no real evidence any of this from anyone was racially motivated. Just a bunch of wild speculation really. The media want to fan the flames of racism for ratings.

In the end we've spent a tremendous amount of time and resources on a trial that should never have been national news in the first place. In the end this entire discussion is just silly and relatively pointless. We are all now a little bit dumber for discussing it.

Spot on.

[Julio3000]

And Martin got suspended from school for fighting. He's also known to both participate and referree in fights. Had pics on his phone of marijuana plants (and smoking weed) and texts of him discussing buying a gun (along with a picture of someones hand holding a gun). Martin has tools common with burglary in his school locker and pictures of a large cache of ***elry that could match ***elry that was previously stolen.

Trayvons Mom even kicked him out of the house to go live with his father because of the trouble he was getting in.

So I respect having an opinion on it. But, to think Zimmerman was likely the instigator based on a prior charge,then you are probably ignoring Trayvon Martins history as well.

He was suspended for truancy, tardiness, and possession of a weed pipe. Not fighting. And, FWIW, he had no criminal record.

I will say the ***elry thing looks sketchy. Still, you're talking about teenage BS, for the most part. If every kid who smoked weed and talked tough were a hardened, violent criminal, we wouldn't have enough qualified people to staff all of the prisons we'd need.

[Julio3000]

Sure that's fine. Mention away. Both were at fault. Both were sinners. Both were stupid. Both had pasts that would lead others to infer guilt in this incident. Exactly.

Maybe, but only one of them had been arrested for felony violence, and only one of them was pursuing the other with a weapon.

[gilesfan]

He was suspended for truancy, tardiness, and possession of a weed pipe. Not fighting. And, FWIW, he had no criminal record.

I will say the ***elry thing looks sketchy. Still, you're talking about teenage BS, for the most part. If every kid who smoked weed and talked tough were a hardened, violent criminal, we wouldn't have enough qualified people to staff all of the prisons we'd need.


Aren't juvenile criminal records sealed or was his released?


Teenage BS includes pics of guns, pics of him smoking weed, pics of him fighting, texts of him talking about beating someone up, but "dat ****a" didn't bleed enough?

Neither parties were hardened, violent criminals. Why is GZ more likely to have been the aggressor knowing Martins history of fighting and general thuggery?

[Julio3000]

Race didn't play the role media and the race baiters have wanted it to play. I agree, I believe, with the FBI on this count. Why shouldn't I?

How exactly would it have been different from a self-defense angle? Do certain jurisdictions require a certain level of blows? Or amount of blood shed? Or types of weapons being used? Seriously, what do you have in mind here?

They overreached on manslaughter too. As the jury determined. As the original cops did as well.

What are you going to arrest him for?

Other states have stronger requirements wrt proportionality of force.

Most of it hangs, legally, on who was the aggressor in the incident. The fact that in this case (and many others) we only have one surviving witness would indicate that this is problematic.

[Julio3000]

Aren't juvenile criminal records sealed or was his released?


Teenage BS includes pics of guns, pics of him smoking weed, pics of him fighting, texts of him talking about beating someone up, but "dat ****a" didn't bleed enough?

Neither parties were hardened, violent criminals. Why is GZ more likely to have been the aggressor knowing Martins history of fighting and general thuggery?

Who was pursuing whom?

[gilesfan]

Who was pursuing whom?

Who was pursuing who when the fight started?

Also, pursuing someone doesn't equate to starting a fight. That is a presumption.

[Julio3000]

Who was pursuing who when the fight started?

Also, pursuing someone doesn't equate to starting a fight. That is a presumption.

Yeah, I'll grant that. I just think that lots of people are far too willing to gloss over the fact that Zimmerman's decision to pursue Martin could reasonably be construed as threatening, and that the fact that the court only heard the account of the survivor of the fight should be troubling. The verdict was reasonable in light of the laws of the state, but it's far from establishing the truth of the situation, which is what I'm getting at.

[gilesfan]

While I agree with that, I don't agree with people presuming that Zimmerman was the aggressor without any shred of evidence showing that to be the case. And instead of it being the main contention in the case, it's glossed over as believe that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

If Zimmerman initiated the fight, he got off with at the very least manslaughter. But, with the evidence we have been given, I don't see why people don't believe Zimmermans version of the events.

[zitothebrave]

While I agree with that, I don't agree with people presuming that Zimmerman was the aggressor without any shred of evidence showing that to be the case. And instead of it being the main contention in the case, it's glossed over as believe that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

If Zimmerman initiated the fight, he got off with at the very least manslaughter. But, with the evidence we have been given, I don't see why people don't believe Zimmermans version of the events.

I don't think anyone is presuming Zimmerman is the aggressor. WE're all presuming that the evidence isn't all there because we don't know what happened between Zimmerman stalking Martin and Zimmerman shooting Martin who was on top of him.

[BedellBrave]

He was suspended for truancy, tardiness, and possession of a weed pipe. Not fighting. And, FWIW, he had no criminal record.

I will say the ***elry thing looks sketchy. Still, you're talking about teenage BS, for the most part. If every kid who smoked weed and talked tough were a hardened, violent criminal, we wouldn't have enough qualified people to staff all of the prisons we'd need.


You disappoint me Julio. How easily you dismiss the one but insist everyone else not dismiss stuff about GZ. Pretty rich.

[BedellBrave]

I don't think anyone is presuming Zimmerman is the aggressor. WE're all presuming that the evidence isn't all there because we don't know what happened between Zimmerman stalking Martin and Zimmerman shooting Martin who was on top of him.


Y'all aren't? What's with all the questions about Zimmerman pursuing-stalking him then?

[Julio3000]

You disappoint me Julio. How easily you dismiss the one but insist everyone else not dismiss stuff about GZ. Pretty rich.

We have only Zimmerman's word that Martin attacked him. We KNOW that Zimmerman made the choice to pursue in his car, and again on foot, against police advice. In highlighting his past—which had not to my knowledge been touched upon here—I'm underscoring the idea that one can make assumptions as easily about GZ as people in this thread have made about Martin.

The fact remains that only one of the two had arrests for violent crime and/or felony criminal complaints made against him.

You said Martin was a thug. That's a pretty loaded term, particularly applied to a black teen. It implies what? Violent criminality? Interesting.

Why is he a thug? Weed? In that case, I guess Jordan Schafer is a thug. Suspension from school for truancy? Guess I'm a thug, too.

I've limited my observations about Zimmerman to criticism of choices and behavior that he indisputably engaged in. I haven't made a sweeping value judgement about who or what he "is."

[zitothebrave]

Y'all aren't? What's with all the questions about Zimmerman pursuing-stalking him then?

I have no clue where you're going with that one. He did pursue him, that's a fact.

[BedellBrave]

Still disappointed. Oh well.

[BedellBrave]

I have no clue where you're going with that one. He did pursue him, that's a fact.

Just don't act like you aren't saying Zimmerman was the aggressor.

[BedellBrave]

Pretty much (http://spectator.org/archives/2013/07/12/two-males-no-men)

[Julio3000]

Y'all aren't? What's with all the questions about Zimmerman pursuing-stalking him then?

I think I've stated it plenty of times. I don't know. Neither do any of us. I am pointing out the fact that there is only one surviving witness, and his story is necessarily self-serving. I don't buy his story. You do. Super.

Either guy could have initiated the physical confrontation. Granted. I'm just perplexed by why you (and others) seem to think it's immaterial that the armed Zimmerman was pursuing the "****ing punk," who was in fact not engaged in any illegal activity.

[Julio3000]

Still disappointed. Oh well.

How can I help you out here?

You want me to say that truancy, tardiness, and weed—along with a glorification of guns that, well, would seem to cut a pretty wide swath in our culture—represents a grave danger to society?

[gilesfan]

Neither you nor I know if Martin was engaged in any illegal activity.

What reasons do you have for not buying Zimmermans story? Is their any evidence that contradicts the story? Or do you just believe he was a racists thus he must have been the aggressor?

[cajunrevenge]

What I find very telling is that when he was interrogated by the cops and they lied to him and said it was all recorded by a security camera his response was "thank god". Thats not conclusive but you would expect him to be atleast a little nervous or rattled if he was lying.

[Julio3000]

Neither you nor I know if Martin was engaged in any illegal activity.

What reasons do you have for not buying Zimmermans story? Is their any evidence that contradicts the story? Or do you just believe he was a racists thus he must have been the aggressor?

No reason to believe that he was. None at all. Nothing that he was doing or carrying indicated it.

I allow for the possibility that either guy was the aggressor in the physical confrontation. It's just as likely to have been Zimmerman. I think that his pursuit essentially amounted to an escalation of the situation, which makes him morally culpable, if not legally.

I don't believe that he was a racist thug. His previous calls to police do indicate that he considered young black men (including one "7-9" years old) in his neighborhood as suspicious, but I can't say what was in the guy's head. I think that his statements on the 911 call "...****ing punk. These assholes always get away" could indicate a mindset that he was at least willing to pursue and confront the kid. There have been studies that have shown that people who are armed are more likely to engage in aggressive behavior while driving, presumably because carrying a gun gives them some kind of feeling of "insurance" in case of conflict.

His account of the incident portrays him as being entirely passive. He just stood there while Martin approached him and said TV gangster stuff like "You got a problem? You do now." The kid said "You're gonna die tonight," while he was beating him up? That's video game stuff. GZ didn't open his mouth, didn't go for his gun, didn't take a swing? He did nothing at all until firing the shot? It just doesn't seem likely.

[AerchAngel]

What I find very telling is that when he was interrogated by the cops and they lied to him and said it was all recorded by a security camera his response was "thank god". Thats not conclusive but you would expect him to be atleast a little nervous or rattled if he was lying.

Good catch.

[gilesfan]

No reason to believe that he was. None at all. Nothing that he was doing or carrying indicated it.

I allow for the possibility that either guy was the aggressor in the physical confrontation. It's just as likely to have been Zimmerman. I think that his pursuit essentially amounted to an escalation of the situation, which makes him morally culpable, if not legally.

I don't believe that he was a racist thug. His previous calls to police do indicate that he considered young black men (including one "7-9" years old) in his neighborhood as suspicious, but I can't say what was in the guy's head. I think that his statements on the 911 call "...****ing punk. These assholes always get away" could indicate a mindset that he was at least willing to pursue and confront the kid. There have been studies that have shown that people who are armed are more likely to engage in aggressive behavior while driving, presumably because carrying a gun gives them some kind of feeling of "insurance" in case of conflict.

His account of the incident portrays him as being entirely passive. He just stood there while Martin approached him and said TV gangster stuff like "You got a problem? You do now." The kid said "You're gonna die tonight," while he was beating him up? That's video game stuff. GZ didn't open his mouth, didn't go for his gun, didn't take a swing? He did nothing at all until firing the shot? It just doesn't seem likely.

You seem to give TM a lot of benefit of the doubt, but fail to do so with Zimmerman.

There are instances of Zimmerman sticking up for a black homeless man that was beat and he called for police corruption. Martin is also on the phone saying "creepy cracker," correct? Why is Zimmerman considered the racist when there is actual evidence of the other party throwing out a racial slur?

Again, Zimmerman answered every question. He took the police out to the crime scene and described what happened. It was played back along with the recording and both paths of travel between Zimmerman and Martin. Nothing he said showed him to be lying, hiding the truth, or any form of dishonest. I didn't find any evidence that Zimmerman account of the events to be false. As much scrutiny on this case, I would think the pressure would get to him and he would slip up, no?

Again, if you think he was the aggressor, then thats your opinion. I just don't see any evidence to crucify the guy. I just dont agree with how Zimmermans past is being blown out of proportion yet you get no mention of Martins past. And also, this media circus blew up because it was presumed that Zimmerman was white, when in fact he's hispanic. (unless you believe Obama and Tiger are white, ?)

The ignorance on this matter is what really got me. Especially from a lot of celebrities/athletes.

[zitothebrave]

Just don't act like you aren't saying Zimmerman was the aggressor.

I have never once said or insinuated he was the aggressor. Ive held my we don't know what happened with 100% certainty

[Julio3000]

Also, Zimmerman's story kept getting more ornate each time he told it. After his first interview he added a direct death threat to the catalog of things Martin allegedly said. The kid allegedly put his hands over Zimmerman's mouth and tried to smother him. The guy is fighting for his life, and he doesn't try to bite him, or anything?

Obviously, he got popped in the face. But Zimmerman said that the kid was "slamming" his head on the concrete. The photos of his injuries are available. Those lacerations could certainly come from hitting his head on the concrete while he was struggling with someone on top of him, but they seem pretty mild for someone who got his head slammed on the concrete repeatedly by someone who had leverage over him and arguably superior strength. Also, Martin is allegedly slamming the head of a furiously struggling 200-lb man into the sidewalk, and yet he has none of Zimmerman's DNA on his fingernails?

None of this is even to necessarily say that Martin couldn't have sucker punched him. I'm just saying that his story doesn't seem likely. I'm sure it happened too fast for him to have perfect recall, and it's unreasonable to expect him to, but he told a story that was laughably one-sided. I'm more inclined to believe that they scuffled—for whatever reason—he got the worst of it, panicked, and fired. Obviously, even that is not grounds to convict him under Florida law. But that doesn't mean that his account of the fight isn't entirely self-serving. No preamble, no talking, no posturing—the kid just rushed him and tried to kill him with his bare hands, all while announcing that he was trying to kill him.

The lead detective who interviewed him recommended a manslaughter charge, which I doubt he'd have done if he believed the story.

[Julio3000]

You seem to give TM a lot of benefit of the doubt, but fail to do so with Zimmerman.

There are instances of Zimmerman sticking up for a black homeless man that was beat and he called for police corruption. Martin is also on the phone saying "creepy cracker," correct? Why is Zimmerman considered the racist when there is actual evidence of the other party throwing out a racial slur?

Again, Zimmerman answered every question. He took the police out to the crime scene and described what happened. It was played back along with the recording and both paths of travel between Zimmerman and Martin. Nothing he said showed him to be lying, hiding the truth, or any form of dishonest. I didn't find any evidence that Zimmerman account of the events to be false. As much scrutiny on this case, I would think the pressure would get to him and he would slip up, no?

Again, if you think he was the aggressor, then thats your opinion. I just don't see any evidence to crucify the guy. I just dont agree with how Zimmermans past is being blown out of proportion yet you get no mention of Martins past. And also, this media circus blew up because it was presumed that Zimmerman was white, when in fact he's hispanic. (unless you believe Obama and Tiger are white, ?)

The ignorance on this matter is what really got me. Especially from a lot of celebrities/athletes.

I don't get the "Martin's past" thing. What in his past makes it more likely that he attacked Zimmerman totally unprovoked?

[gilesfan]

This guy?

http://patdollard.com/2013/07/flashback-lead-detective-says-he-was-pressured-by-corrupt-black-superiors-to-file-charges-against-zimmerman-demoted-for-resisting/

[gilesfan]

I don't get the "Martin's past" thing. What in his past makes it more likely that he attacked Zimmerman totally unprovoked?

History of fighting? How he talks on his cell phone records about "dat ****a didn't bleed enough" after he beat the other person up?

[thethe]

What law did Zimmerman break exactly? The jury got the verdict right. Sad for the family of the dead kid and this shoukd never have happened but Zimmerman did not break any laws.

[BedellBrave]

We have only Zimmerman's word that Martin attacked him. We KNOW that Zimmerman made the choice to pursue in his car, and again on foot, against police advice. In highlighting his past—which had not to my knowledge been touched upon here—I'm underscoring the idea that one can make assumptions as easily about GZ as people in this thread have made about Martin.

The fact remains that only one of the two had arrests for violent crime and/or felony criminal complaints made against him.

You said Martin was a thug. That's a pretty loaded term, particularly applied to a black teen. It implies what? Violent criminality? Interesting.

Why is he a thug? Weed? In that case, I guess Jordan Schafer is a thug. Suspension from school for truancy? Guess I'm a thug, too.

I've limited my observations about Zimmerman to criticism of choices and behavior that he indisputably engaged in. I haven't made a sweeping value judgement about who or what he "is."


From what we know of young Martin, he was into the gangsta-thug sort of culture/look/speech/act right? So, why is it inappropriate to use that label for him?

[BedellBrave]

I think I've stated it plenty of times. I don't know. Neither do any of us. I am pointing out the fact that there is only one surviving witness, and his story is necessarily self-serving. I don't buy his story. You do. Super.

Either guy could have initiated the physical confrontation. Granted. I'm just perplexed by why you (and others) seem to think it's immaterial that the armed Zimmerman was pursuing the "****ing punk," who was in fact not engaged in any illegal activity.


I buy a part of his story - that part confirmed by the evidence.

[BedellBrave]

How can I help you out here?

You want me to say that truancy, tardiness, and weed—along with a glorification of guns that, well, would seem to cut a pretty wide swath in our culture—represents a grave danger to society?


I think of you, though much to the left of me, as typically being pretty fair-minded (maybe more so than I think I am). And yet post after post, I just don't sense that you are very willing to admit that mistakes, wrongs, caricatures, etc., have been made by anybody but Zimmerman and the RW media and anyone that would challenge your narrative. I guess I expected more balance. Sorry.

[Julio3000]

I buy a part of his story - that part confirmed by the evidence.

That he got punched in the nose, that his injuries were not inconsistent with striking his head on the concrete, and that at one point TM was on top of him. I agree. That's why he's a free man. It says nothing about the rest of his story. I'm not sure why I have to keep repeating this.

[zitothebrave]

What law did Zimmerman break exactly? The jury got the verdict right. Sad for the family of the dead kid and this shoukd never have happened but Zimmerman did not break any laws.

You should rephrase it to you cannot prove Zimmerman broke any laws. He very well could have but there's no evidence

[Julio3000]

I think of you, though much to the left of me, as typically being pretty fair-minded (maybe more so than I think I am). And yet post after post, I just don't sense that you are very willing to admit that mistakes, wrongs, caricatures, etc., have been made by anybody but Zimmerman and the RW media and anyone that would challenge your narrative. I guess I expected more balance. Sorry.

I don't have a narrative. I have a visceral negative response to the appearance of blaming of victim and suggesting that the dead kid got what was coming to him somehow. I believe that lots of unfair and irresponsible things were said about Zimmerman, and promulgated by the media. I believe that justice was done, in the narrowest sense, but that Zimmerman bears the majority of the responsibility for the tragedy. Not because of the color of the skin or the content of his character, but because of the choices he made that night.

[BedellBrave]

And the only thing I'd add is that, while understandable that he would go off on Zimmerman, Martin was very foolish in doing so.

[sturg33]

What law did Zimmerman break exactly? The jury got the verdict right. Sad for the family of the dead kid and this shoukd never have happened but Zimmerman did not break any laws.

Interesting that you don't hold this view for potential terror suspects...

[zitothebrave]

History of fighting? How he talks on his cell phone records about "dat ****a didn't bleed enough" after he beat the other person up?

So that means for sure he started the fight? Lulz

Gilesfan's posts in this thread have been comic gold.

[thethe]

You should rephrase it to you cannot prove Zimmerman broke any laws. He very well could have but there's no evidence

Well, thats what the judicial system is all about?

[Julio3000]

From what we know of young Martin, he was into the gangsta-thug sort of culture/look/speech/act right? So, why is it inappropriate to use that label for him?

I know a kid who smokes weed, wears gold fronts, has been accused of battery and who is fond of posing with guns.

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/bieberthug_zps28fb80e6.jpg
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/justin-bieber-gold-grill_zps1e081c97.jpg

[zitothebrave]

Well, thats what the judicial system is all about?

I break laws pretty much every day. I just don't get caught almost all of the time.

[thethe]

I break laws pretty much every day. I just don't get caught almost all of the time.

Well, not being prosecuted for a crime that nobody witnessed protects you against people making false accusations doesn't it?

[zitothebrave]

Well, not being prosecuted for a crime that nobody witnessed protects you against people making false accusations doesn't it?

Yes but it doesn't mean you're innocent.

This is 100% hypothetical Mr. Government agent who's tracking my every move but suppose a Mobster pulls a hit off, he's put in court but acquitted of his crime, does that mean he's innocent? Or just that he wasn't caught? Innocent means that you did not commit any crime.

[thethe]

Yes but it doesn't mean you're innocent.

This is 100% hypothetical Mr. Government agent who's tracking my every move but suppose a Mobster pulls a hit off, he's put in court but acquitted of his crime, does that mean he's innocent? Or just that he wasn't caught? Innocent means that you did not commit any crime.

Ok, thats fair but you are putting a hypothetical out there that Zimmerman actually committed a crime. You don't know that he did just like I don't know that he didn't. All we know is the evidence and thats what the judicial system is all about.

[zitothebrave]

Ok, thats fair but you are putting a hypothetical out there that Zimmerman actually committed a crime. You don't know that he did just like I don't know that he didn't. All we know is the evidence and thats what the judicial system is all about.

Not knowing doesn't mean he's abtually innocent, just that he's not guilty. If that makes sense. Legally he's innocent, in all actuality, who knows.

[thethe]

Not knowing doesn't mean he's abtually innocent, just that he's not guilty. If that makes sense. Legally he's innocent, in all actuality, who knows.

I agree...I just don't get why people are shocked at the verdict in this case. I think the evidence that was presented clearly validated Zimmermans story.

[zitothebrave]

I agree...I just don't get why people are shocked at the verdict in this case. I think the evidence that was presented clearly validated Zimmermans story.

People who were upset at the verdict were either racist or super anti-gun.

[cajunrevenge]

I'm more inclined to believe that they scuffled—for whatever reason—he got the worst of it, panicked, and fired.

The only way contact could have even been made between the two is if Trayvon stopped running away and went back towards Zimmerman. He could have just went home and no one would have even known the name of the person Zimmerman saw. What other reason would there be for Trayvon going back towards Zimmerman other than to confront him? That along with his history and apparent willingness to fight in other situations makes me think he initiated contact.

I also dont see mentioned that when searched at school in October 2011 they found 12 pieces of womens ***elry, a watch, and a flat head screw driver which is about all you need to break into a house. A lot of people want to portray him as a choir boy. He was a walking sterotype. What I am really curious to see if what the burglary rate in this subdivision is after this shooting is. I bet whoever was doing the burglaries will think twice about it now.

[zitothebrave]

No one mentioned it cause it's old hat. That's been discussed before, as far as running away or not, you don't know what's running thruogh his head, maybe he was fearful if he went home someone would kill his whole family, never know.

But what I do know is that Zimmerman could have stayed in his car and none of this would have happened. You can argue Martin making mistakes cause he certainly did, but Zimmerman made the first mistake.

[thethe]

No one mentioned it cause it's old hat. That's been discussed before, as far as running away or not, you don't know what's running thruogh his head, maybe he was fearful if he went home someone would kill his whole family, never know.

But what I do know is that Zimmerman could have stayed in his car and none of this would have happened. You can argue Martin making mistakes cause he certainly did, but Zimmerman made the first mistake.

That is some crazy scenario in your second sentence. Do you honestly believe that to be true or believe that Martin possibly thought that?

[zitothebrave]

Honestly we don't know, cause he's dead. I dont' think that's the reason he stopped heading home, but no one knows and no one will, because he's dead.

[BedellBrave]

I know a kid who smokes weed, wears gold fronts, has been accused of battery and who is fond of posing with guns.

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/bieberthug_zps28fb80e6.jpg
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff511/poinsett/justin-bieber-gold-grill_zps1e081c97.jpg


Yep, the worst kind.

[BedellBrave]

People who were upset at the verdict were either racist or super anti-gun.

To be fair, I think many just don't understand.

[acesfull86]

"How is it that young Trayvon Martin could be killed by George Zimmerman and George Zimmerman gets no time when Michael Vick got two-and-a-half years for killing dogs?"

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Benjamin Jealous, President of the NAACP.

[Krgrecw]

Vick didn't get time for killing dogs he got time for perjury

[zitothebrave]

Vick didn't get time for killing dogs he got time for perjury

Jeez man, are you ever right in this forum?

Vick went to jail for dogfighting, not perjury.

[AerchAngel]

I break laws pretty much every day. I just don't get caught almost all of the time.

LMAO!!!!

[Julio3000]

What I am really curious to see if what the burglary rate in this subdivision is after this shooting is. I bet whoever was doing the burglaries will think twice about it now.

Yeah, totally worth it.

[CK86]

I'll be really disappointed if the DOJ charges Zimmerman with civil rights violations. He's had his day in court, charging him again just sets a terrible precedent imo.

[CK86]

BTW MSNBC's coverage of this is just hilarious. They're so biased it's just unbelievable.

[zitothebrave]

I just want to say some of the stuff I've seen on Facebook by my racist friends is depressing. **** like this

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1069322_475340972552428_682790402_n.jpg

If you think the Zimmerman case was too publicized, A. why talk about it, and B. why make horrific comparisons?

[AerchAngel]

I'll be really disappointed if the DOJ charges Zimmerman with civil rights violations. He's had his day in court, charging him again just sets a terrible precedent imo.

They are seriously trying to get around the Double Jeopardy? Wow.

[BedellBrave]

The Marley Lion story is also a tragedy.

[zitothebrave]

The Marley Lion story is also a tragedy.

It is a tragedy, but they're different stories for a reason.

[Krgrecw]

They're only different stories because the races were reversed.
If four white guys walked up and shot a black 17 yr old the case would be a lot bigger and there would be hate crimes attached.

the FBI investigated and said that race wasn't involved at all in the Martin case. DOJ has no case

[zitothebrave]

They're only different stories because the races were reversed.
If four white guys walked up and shot a black 17 yr old the case would be a lot bigger and there would be hate crimes attached.

the FBI investigated and said that race wasn't involved at all in the Martin case. DOJ has no case

There are about 1 trillion differences. First off the cops didn't give up on Lion. The FBI and ATF even contributed to the investigation. When they foudn the killers they charged them with murder. With Martin's case they had the killer and didn't even do a thorough investigation.

Meanwhile in the Zimmerman investigation, the first investigator wanted to charge for manslaughter, but the assistant attorney general wouldn't, presumably knowing about stand your ground.

If you think the 2 are the same except the race, you've clearly been suckered by Faux "News" and their kind.

[BedellBrave]

So Z, you didn't buy the information that giles presented earlier about that first investigator?

Another obvious difference is that Lion wasn't fighting. No way those guys can argue self defense. The Lion case is heinous.

[zitothebrave]

So Z, you didn't buy the information that giles presented earlier about that first investigator?

Another obvious difference is that Lion wasn't fighting. No way those guys can argue self defense. The Lion case is heinous.

I don't recall giles's post from earlier, but my guess is like usual he's sourcing info from a pro-gun/republican site cause he's had many wrong statements already so I don't care to go back. I'm not saying he was right, just saying hwat he recommeneded, and to be fair he wasn't a homicide detective but narcotics (yay great police work, again)

[Krgrecw]

Zito why the hell would the FBI and ATF be involved in the Zimmerman case?

Maybe, just maybe the local cops thought the Zimmerman case was self defense from the get go, hence why no charges were filed for a long time

You need to watch some Fox News so you'd at least have a clue what's going on.

[zitothebrave]

Zito why the hell would the FBI and ATF be involved in the Zimmerman case?

Maybe, just maybe the local cops thought the Zimmerman case was self defense from the get go, hence why no charges were filed for a long time

You need to watch some Fox News so you'd at least have a clue what's going on.

I'm gonna ignore the first part, especially since the first investigator recommended manslaughter charges but onto the bold

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9t0xx2Nm51qca92qo1_500.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/c3541308ca5991cce5526dbb3728b46e/tumblr_mj4dd6mzE71rkod5mo1_500.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lka915sLrA1qhgme2.gif

http://h6.abload.de/img/0382_s7tr.gif

http://imgon.net/di-YQIO.gif

http://i.minus.com/iI4qGA2S6erfb.gif

http://i.minus.com/ikLTYlOnLgLpK.gif

http://i.imgur.com/SNq07.gif

[Tapate50]

I'm gonna ignore the first part, especially since the first investigator recommended manslaughter charges but onto the bold

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9t0xx2Nm51qca92qo1_500.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/c3541308ca5991cce5526dbb3728b46e/tumblr_mj4dd6mzE71rkod5mo1_500.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lka915sLrA1qhgme2.gif

http://h6.abload.de/img/0382_s7tr.gif

http://imgon.net/di-YQIO.gif

http://i.minus.com/iI4qGA2S6erfb.gif

http://i.minus.com/ikLTYlOnLgLpK.gif

http://i.imgur.com/SNq07.gif

All the .gifs in the world won't make you any more right on this Zeets. I know the retort already so save it, and no Bill Maher and John Stewart aren't good sources for news.

You are slower than I thought if you thought ATF would investigate a murder. FBI does mostly corporate and financial crime now as of late as well.

There was no evidence he did anything wrong. I am not sure what everyone wanted?

Everyone take a DEEP breath and think about how scary this world would be if you could be convicted of murder (like all of yall want) with NO evidence.

[Krgrecw]

I guess Zito uses .gifs since he can't argue?
The ATF were involved in the other case because there was gun selling. Was there any illegal gun selling happening in the Martin case? No. Hence why there was no ATF involvement.

And police don't have final say in charges, the DA does. a cop can say I'm going to charge you with so and so but if a DA says 'no' there are no charges.

[weso1]

The reaction to this from some parts of the public is one of the most absurd things I've seen in a long time. Some of the most inane arguments being repeated over and over again. If I was black I would be embarrassed by the way certain parts of my race are acting and are being represented and in essence making me a part of that group, whether fair or not, because of this inconsequential case.

[Tapate50]

The reaction to this from some parts of the public is one of the most absurd things I've seen in a long time. Some of the most inane arguments being repeated over and over again. If I was black I would be embarrassed by the way certain parts of my race are acting and are being represented and in essence making me a part of that group, whether fair or not, because of this inconsequential case.

AGREE.

[Runnin]

The Left needs to pick a better case to get behind than this.

Is the report about him being found with a burglary tool and women's ***elry true?

uh, joowelry, lol. I've never noticed that before. Interesting....

[Tapate50]

Now, if you wanna direct your outrage somewhere more constructive. This case is about the worst thing ive heard in a long long time.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/29/us/georgia-brunswick-baby-shooting

[gilesfan]

I'm more inclined to believe that they scuffled—for whatever reason—he got the worst of it, panicked, and fired.

The only way contact could have even been made between the two is if Trayvon stopped running away and went back towards Zimmerman. He could have just went home and no one would have even known the name of the person Zimmerman saw. What other reason would there be for Trayvon going back towards Zimmerman other than to confront him? That along with his history and apparent willingness to fight in other situations makes me think he initiated contact.

I also dont see mentioned that when searched at school in October 2011 they found 12 pieces of womens ***elry, a watch, and a flat head screw driver which is about all you need to break into a house. A lot of people want to portray him as a choir boy. He was a walking sterotype. What I am really curious to see if what the burglary rate in this subdivision is after this shooting is. I bet whoever was doing the burglaries will think twice about it now.

This is a point I made either and no one would comment on it. There is no way Zimmerman catches up to Martin unless Martin stops or going back towards Zimmerman.

[zitothebrave]

All the .gifs in the world won't make you any more right on this Zeets. I know the retort already so save it, and no Bill Maher and John Stewart aren't good sources for news.

You are slower than I thought if you thought ATF would investigate a murder. FBI does mostly corporate and financial crime now as of late as well.

There was no evidence he did anything wrong. I am not sure what everyone wanted?

Everyone take a DEEP breath and think about how scary this world would be if you could be convicted of murder (like all of yall want) with NO evidence.

I don't use the Daily Show as a source for news, unlike people who watch Faux "News" I watch fake news shows for comedy reasons, not information.

My point with ATF was there was a full cooperation of all parties to solving that crime. ZImmerman was the triggerman and let go that night without any charges against the recommendations of the investigator essentially because of a Florida law that allows you to kill someone and if no one else is a witness to it your word is pretty much enough to get you off.

As far as there being no evidence of any wrongdoing, I think more thorough police work could have done the job. They let him speak to one investigator, a narcotics guy. He should have spoken to more than one to see if he had issues keeping details of his case straight to see if he's lying or not. Personally his crime reenactment alone would be enough to consider a negligence charge or some sort since it almost entirely contradicts the words that came out of his and the 911 dispatchers conversation. Seems to me he was just blatantly lying. I know people talk about stress being a factor, but so is lying to cover your ass.

All we have is his word because honestly the cops didn't really do their job. Would have been cleaner on a non-rainy night but I digress. Police could have done a better job.

I never said ever in this thread Zimmerman should be convicted of murder. I never said he should be convicted of manslaughter based on the law. My opinion is based on his action he should have gone to jail for manslaughter at least but legally it didn't fit the definition. I'm well aware of how the law works, but I'm also well aware of when laws need to be looked at. Such as one that essentially permits people to act like vigilantes and use deadly force when it may not have been necessary, and walk away with their guns afterwards.

[zitothebrave]

This is a point I made either and no one would comment on it. There is no way Zimmerman catches up to Martin unless Martin stops or going back towards Zimmerman.

And it would be irrelevant if Zimmerman didn't follow him in his car and on foot. WEEEE WE'RE GOING IN CIRCLES!!! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[gilesfan]

There are about 1 trillion differences. First off the cops didn't give up on Lion. The FBI and ATF even contributed to the investigation. When they foudn the killers they charged them with murder. With Martin's case they had the killer and didn't even do a thorough investigation.

Meanwhile in the Zimmerman investigation, the first investigator wanted to charge for manslaughter, but the assistant attorney general wouldn't, presumably knowing about stand your ground.

If you think the 2 are the same except the race, you've clearly been suckered by Faux "News" and their kind.


No, the police thoroughly investigated and found out that Zimmerman was not guilty of any crimes. (backed by the trial) But, political pressure put on the police force forced a charge that the prosecution had zero chance of winning.

[gilesfan]

I don't recall giles's post from earlier, but my guess is like usual he's sourcing info from a pro-gun/republican site cause he's had many wrong statements already so I don't care to go back. I'm not saying he was right, just saying hwat he recommeneded, and to be fair he wasn't a homicide detective but narcotics (yay great police work, again)

In other words, he's just choosing to ignore facts, Bedell.

[zitothebrave]

No, the police thoroughly investigated and found out that Zimmerman was not guilty of any crimes. (backed by the trial) But, political pressure put on the police force forced a charge that the prosecution had zero chance of winning.

LMAO

I don't know if it's cause he's a gun owner, or his last name is Zimmerman and your internal Nat defender is kicking in but your irrationality is stronger than normal.

[zitothebrave]

To expand on my last post with a sentence detracting your point (though it honestly doesn't deserve it given the nature of your posting in this thread), if the investigation was so thorough, why are there so many questions? Obviously given the evidence there was not gonna be a conviction, but the nature of what I must call some (not all of course) Zimmerman defenders is epically hilarious. Every last one of you played right into the game.

[Tapate50]

I don't use the Daily Show as a source for news, unlike people who watch Faux "News" I watch fake news shows for comedy reasons, not information.

My point with ATF was there was a full cooperation of all parties to solving that crime. ZImmerman was the triggerman and let go that night without any charges against the recommendations of the investigator essentially because of a Florida law that allows you to kill someone and if no one else is a witness to it your word is pretty much enough to get you off.

As far as there being no evidence of any wrongdoing, I think more thorough police work could have done the job. They let him speak to one investigator, a narcotics guy. He should have spoken to more than one to see if he had issues keeping details of his case straight to see if he's lying or not. Personally his crime reenactment alone would be enough to consider a negligence charge or some sort since it almost entirely contradicts the words that came out of his and the 911 dispatchers conversation. Seems to me he was just blatantly lying. I know people talk about stress being a factor, but so is lying to cover your ass.

All we have is his word because honestly the cops didn't really do their job. Would have been cleaner on a non-rainy night but I digress. Police could have done a better job.

I never said ever in this thread Zimmerman should be convicted of murder. I never said he should be convicted of manslaughter based on the law. My opinion is based on his action he should have gone to jail for manslaughter at least but legally it didn't fit the definition. I'm well aware of how the law works, but I'm also well aware of when laws need to be looked at. Such as one that essentially permits people to act like vigilantes and use deadly force when it may not have been necessary, and walk away with their guns afterwards.

Doesn't appear that way and your understanding of federal\local enforcement needs work. You are one of millions of people trying to find a conspiracy in this, and there simply isn't one. There are cases where all there is victims testimony, and thats all there is. Trying to get all worked up that there isn't enough homicide police on the job or no witnesses is life. No evidence means no evidence and no conviction.

In jail for negligence is your desire? Thats BS pure and simple. This guy will never hold a job for 30 years. He will be spit on, cussed out in public, and degraded probably every day. Let it go. His life will be miserable for this.

[Tapate50]

To expand on my last post with a sentence detracting your point (though it honestly doesn't deserve it given the nature of your posting in this thread), if the investigation was so thorough, why are there so many questions? Obviously given the evidence there was not gonna be a conviction, but the nature of what I must call some (not all of course) Zimmerman defenders is epically hilarious. Every last one of you played right into the game.

Thats because there is no "game". There are just facts. The facts say one thing and you choose to join the conspiracy theorists and not believe the facts.


I bet you and Jesse Ventura are tight.

[gilesfan]

LMAO

I don't know if it's cause he's a gun owner, or his last name is Zimmerman and your internal Nat defender is kicking in but your irrationality is stronger than normal.

Um, how is this not true? What questions are there?

[zitothebrave]

Doesn't appear that way and your understanding of federal\local enforcement needs work. You are one of millions of people trying to find a conspiracy in this, and there simply isn't one. There are cases where all there is victims testimony, and thats all there is. Trying to get all worked up that there isn't enough homicide police on the job or no witnesses is life. No evidence means no evidence and no conviction.

In jail for negligence is your desire? Thats BS pure and simple. This guy will never hold a job for 30 years. He will be spit on, cussed out in public, and degraded probably every day. Let it go. His life will be miserable for this.

The thing is that the one witness kept changing his story, the cops could have took the time to attempt to entrap him in his own story because he clearly couldn't keep his story straight.

Sadly Zimmerman won't need a job for 30 years, people will make sure of it by essentially giving him money cause they're racist or rabidly pro-gun.

[zitothebrave]

Um, how is this not true? What questions are there?

Tons of questions. How initiated the fight, was Zimmerman actually in danger, and so on so forth. Basically everything that happened from when he hung with with 911 to when the cops showed up is pretty much in question.

[zitothebrave]

BTW this is my favorite thing about the Stand Your Ground Law

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

If she killed her abusive husband, she would be free. How effing ridiculous.

[gilesfan]

The witness that kept changing her story was the prosecution witness that was on the phone with Martin when the altercation started.

When did John Good (the witness that testified to Martin on top of Zimmerman doing ground and pound change his story?

[gilesfan]

Tons of questions. How initiated the fight, was Zimmerman actually in danger, and so on so forth. Basically everything that happened from when he hung with with 911 to when the cops showed up is pretty much in question.

And how would a "more thorough" police investigation answer these questions? There were no eye witnesses to the intial altercation. Are they miracle workers? There was a witness that described Martin on top of Zimmerman pummeling him. How much more do you need than that?

[zitothebrave]

The witness that kept changing her story was the prosecution witness that was on the phone with Martin when the altercation started.

When did John Good (the witness that testified to Martin on top of Zimmerman doing ground and pound change his story?

I'm talking about Zimmerman. He should have been interviewed several times to see how many times his story would change off of the known facts. Love how he pretty much lied about everything he said to the dispatcher adn they said to him.

[gilesfan]

BTW this is my favorite thing about the Stand Your Ground Law

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

If she killed her abusive husband, she would be free. How effing ridiculous.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. The reason she was convicted was bc she had the opportunity to leave the house, but instead grabbed a gun and returned to the house. Not saying it's right or wrong, but you like to diss other comparisons, yet bring up another one that has no relevance.

[gilesfan]

I'm talking about Zimmerman. He should have been interviewed several times to see how many times his story would change off of the known facts. Love how he pretty much lied about everything he said to the dispatcher adn they said to him.

He was interviewed several times, what are you talking about?

What did he lie about? Specifics, please.

[zitothebrave]

I wouldn't be too sure of that. The reason she was convicted was bc she had the opportunity to leave the house, but instead grabbed a gun and returned to the house. Not saying it's right or wrong, but you like to diss other comparisons, yet bring up another one that has no relevance.

If she killed him it would have been his word vs hers and he'd have been dead.Zimmerman had an opportunity not to get into a situation where he wouldn't have used his gun, which is the issue with Stand Your Ground.