Is it too early to give up on BJ Upton?

[PurpleBrave]

0-10 with 6k's. Outside of Rick Ankiel as a pitcher I've never seen anyone completely forget how to play baseball like he has. Why is he even on the big league roster?

[NinersSBChamps]

He is on the roster because of his salary. Even if he wa released the Braves would still pay him. Additionally Wren will not admit that the whole signing was a mistake and that also helps keep BJ around.

[gtcway]

As far as I'm concerned, he's done. I don't expect anything ever out of him more than a 220 average.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Bring back a real CF, bring back Langerhans.

On second thought, no. Trade both of em for Kate.

[nsacpi]

0-10 with 6k's. Outside of Rick Ankiel as a pitcher I've never seen anyone completely forget how to play baseball like he has. Why is he even on the big league roster?

would you release him?

[BRule]

We are stuck with him, need to bench him though.

[stpeteirish]

To answer your question, yes it is too early. But he'll get released eventually, he just can't hit.

[cajunrevenge]

Quite frankly I am tired of both Uptons. When Justin gets hot trade his ass. I would rather have Prado playing LF.

[mfree80]

You guys are a tough crowd. The answer to the OP is YES!

Sick of both Uptons? I have not forgotten last Spring. Everybody has hot and cold streaks. Over time JUpton will be a very good player, and BJ will be better than last year.

[CyYoung31]

Quite frankly I am tired of both Uptons. When Justin gets hot trade his ass. I would rather have Prado playing LF.

You're being facetious. Right?

[Hawk]

We are stuck with him, need to bench him though.

Disagree. I feel like he has to be given every possible opportunity to succeed this season.

[Knucksie]

Didn't take long into the season for the ranting to start.

[cajunrevenge]

You're being facetious. Right?

No, just tired of this all or nothing approach by both Uptons. We already have 2 studs in heyward/freeman. I prefer the consistency and defense of Prado.

[CyYoung31]

No, just tired of this all or nothing approach by both Uptons. We already have 2 studs in heyward/freeman. I prefer the consistency and defense of Prado.

Dude, Justin has been nothing but very good to great in his few years in the big leagues, including last year when he was our second best hitter.

This place is unbelievable sometimes.

[GovClintonTyree]

Dude, Justin has been nothing but very good to great in his few years in the big leagues, including last year when he was our second best hitter.

This place is unbelievable sometimes.

Meh. I'm sick of Justin, too. Mostly I'm sick of him because he's related to BJ.

[PurpleBrave]

BJ Upton is a sunk cost. If you look up sunk-cost in wikipedia, this example comes up. If you replace "Yankees" with "Braves" and "ticket" with "BJ Upton" you get exactly what the Braves have...borderline hilarious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

Economists argue that sunk costs are not taken into account when making rational decisions. In the case of a Braves BJ Upton that has already been purchased, the Braves can choose between the following two end results if they realize that they don't like the Upton:

Having paid the price of the Upton and having suffered watching a player that the Braves do not want to see, or;
Having paid the price of the Upton and having used the time to do something more fun.

In either case, the Braves have paid the price of the BJ Upton so that part of the decision no longer affects the future. If the Braves regret buying the Upton, the current decision should be based on whether they want to see the Upton at all, regardless of the price, just as if they were to go get a free BJ Upton. The economist will suggest that, since the second option involves suffering in only one way (spent money), while the first involves suffering in two (spent money plus wasted time), option two is obviously preferable.

[thewupk]

No, just tired of this all or nothing approach by both Uptons. We already have 2 studs in heyward/freeman. I prefer the consistency and defense of Prado.

You mean how Prado consistently sucks in September?

How about these numbers last year

April 64 wrc+
May 98 wrc+
June 56 wrc+
July 139 wrc+
August 173 wrc+
Sept 80 wrc+

And Prado might be a little better defender then Justin but I doubt it's my much. His high defensive ratings in Left in 2013 were due to having a premier defensive CF.

[thethe]

Quite frankly I am tired of both Uptons. When Justin gets hot trade his ass. I would rather have Prado playing LF.

I think I would rather have Prado out there as well.

[cajunrevenge]

Overall Justin might rate pretty well but he is just too much feast or famine. I am not going to say Justin is not a good player but i just don't think his streakiness is what we need. There aren't many dback fans who miss Justin. Even when he was red hot they knew what was coming. 1 month of awesome followed by 2 months of suck.

[thethe]

I just find it amazing that people still talk about Upton like he is this elite player. He is what he is...a very good player but he isn't a superstar.

[cajunrevenge]

You mean how Prado consistently sucks in September?

How about these numbers last year

April 64 wrc+
May 98 wrc+
June 56 wrc+
July 139 wrc+
August 173 wrc+
Sept 80 wrc+

And Prado might be a little better defender then Justin but I doubt it's my much. His high defensive ratings in Left in 2013 were due to having a premier defensive CF.

I dont care what wrc+ says. Sounds like witchcraft if you ask me. Prado was rarely dead weight in the lineup. Justin is dead weight 50% of the season. Dead weight % > wrc+

[thewupk]

Overall Justin might rate pretty well but he is just too much feast or famine. I am not going to say Justin is not a good player but i just don't think his streakiness is what we need. There aren't many dback fans who miss Justin. Even when he was red hot they knew what was coming. 1 month of awesome followed by 2 months of suck.

Really? Most Dback fans hated the trade.

[thewupk]

I dont care what wrc+ says. Sounds like witchcraft if you ask me. Prado was rarely dead weight in the lineup. Justin is dead weight 50% of the season. Dead weight % > wrc+

Can't help ignorance. And consistency is overrated. End numbers is what matters.

[The Chosen One]

Depends. Justin had 1 great month and the rest were meh. Prado usually shows up every month except September. Also he can play anywhere and is a leadoff guy that would allow heyward to move to 2nd or 3rd in line up.

[thewupk]

Depends. Justin had 1 great month and the rest were meh. Prado usually shows up every month except September. Also he can play anywhere and is a leadoff guy that would allow heyward to move to 2nd or 3rd in line up.

Upton had 2 great months. Same as Prado last year. It's just that Uptons other months weren't all horribad like Prados. In the end Upton is a better hitter and that's all that matters.

[CyYoung31]

I dont care what wrc+ says. Sounds like witchcraft if you ask me. Prado was rarely dead weight in the lineup. Justin is dead weight 50% of the season. Dead weight % > wrc+

Justin had a much better year than Prado last year.

[CyYoung31]

Really? Most Dback fans hated the trade.

Yeah. He's clearly making stuff up.

[Runnin]

Yes, so far BJ sucks and it's easy to make the case for him not hitting 2nd, but I think it's too early to give up on him. We've got plenty of offensive pop in this lineup. As long as he works hard, plays good D and the coaches still believe in him I say let him stink it up for a month or so. If he's still below .200 in May he doesn't deserve to be in anybody's starting lineup.

However if he does turn it around and get hot it's a huge mental boost for the team. The players know how hard the game can be and want to see each other succeed. But until then sometimes you just have to live with a ugly mole on your nose.

[cajunrevenge]

The Dback fans hated the trade because they were dissapointed in the return they got for Upton. Strangely when I visited their blogs to see how they were reacting to Justin's hot start it turned out they had been through this before. The cock tease hot streak that makes you think he has finally figured it out to the month long suckfest that were his slumps. It wouldn't be so bad if we didn't already have automatic out BJ Upton but I can't stand to watch two of them in the lineup at the same time.

[cajunrevenge]

Yeah. He's clearly making stuff up.

Justin's love of baseball % is only 27. Prado is 117%

[yeezus]

It's hard to not to see where these feelings for Justin Upton come from. Sometimes it was just downright frustrating to watch him bat last year. He would swing through poorly located fastballs and his power would be completely zapped.

At the same time, we won 96, he was responsible for carrying us through a lot of wins (while also not hitting well in key spots). We'll see. He still has that potential no doubt.

[thewupk]

The Dback fans hated the trade because they were dissapointed in the return they got for Upton. Strangely when I visited their blogs to see how they were reacting to Justin's hot start it turned out they had been through this before. The cock tease hot streak that makes you think he has finally figured it out to the month long suckfest that were his slumps. It wouldn't be so bad if we didn't already have automatic out BJ Upton but I can't stand to watch two of them in the lineup at the same time.

Yeah Justin is inconsistent like most sluggers. Big deal. I would rather have that then someone who is consistently above average like Prado generally is because in the end it doesn't matter if your inconsistent or go from hot to cold. What matters is what you did for the entire season. And Justin helped the team get out to a huge lead last year with his insane April that helped the Braves cruise to a division title.

[Dalyn]

Prado was rarely dead weight in the lineup.

:happy0157:

[zitothebrave]

I just find it amazing that people still talk about Upton like he is this elite player. He is what he is...a very good player but he isn't a superstar.

Justin could be a superstar. As he is he's more of an all-star level player less of a superstar, but he's produced at superstar levels already in his career.

[bravesnumberone]

Is it too early to give up on him? Yes.
Is it too early to move him to the bottom of the lineup where he belongs? Absolutely not.

[NinersSBChamps]

Justin could be a superstar. As he is he's more of an all-star level player less of a superstar, but he's produced at superstar levels already in his career.

Superstar levels? One season above 30 home runs and he had never hit above .290 in a season. Please elaborate on what superstar numbers he has? Superstars are Miggy and Trout currently.

[thethe]

The Justin Upton being a superstar talk should be over. Again, he is a solid player but he is not what people make him out to be. To me he isn't in Heywards category and Heyward isn't at that top level either.

[nsacpi]

To answer the question in the thread title, I would give BJ 2 more at bats to prove himself.

[AerchAngel]

When we play Strasturd, I hope he isn't in the 2nd hole, switch him and Simba.

[zbhargrove]

The Dback fans hated the trade because they were dissapointed in the return they got for Upton. Strangely when I visited their blogs to see how they were reacting to Justin's hot start it turned out they had been through this before. The cock tease hot streak that makes you think he has finally figured it out to the month long suckfest that were his slumps. It wouldn't be so bad if we didn't already have automatic out BJ Upton but I can't stand to watch two of them in the lineup at the same time.

OMG, Justin is 10 times the player Prado is and its not even close... good lord. Last year was no contest... Upton was light years ahead of Prado and even less streaky.

[JohnAdcox]

Is it too early to give up on him? Yes.
Is it too early to move him to the bottom of the lineup where he belongs? Absolutely not.

This.

[Hawk]

I'm willing to give him enough rope in the 2-hole to last through the first home stand.

[zbhargrove]

Superstar levels? One season above 30 home runs and he had never hit above .290 in a season. Please elaborate on what superstar numbers he has? Superstars are Miggy and Trout currently.

Shows how much you research... he actually hit .300 in 2009 and put up an .899 OPS... in 2011 he up up a .289 avg with an .898 OPS... if he did that every year with 20 SBs, he'd easily be a superstar, especially in the post steroid era. Since when do you have to hit over .290 to be a superstar? And in this age of baseball hitting 30 homers in a season or close to it is pretty impressive. He's not a superstar, no... but zito is definitely right that he has put up superstar like numbers when you factor in that he also has 20-30 SB speed. You say Miggy and Trout are currently superstars, you're right... but zito never said Justin was a superstar currently... just that he's put up superstar like stats in his career, which he has (but way to basically just look at Avg and homers to back up your conclusion).

2 All-Star games and a 4th finish in the MVP voting by the age of 26... how is that not impressive?

[thethe]

Shows how much you research... he actually hit .300 in 2009 and put up an .899 OPS... in 2011 he up up a .289 avg with an .898 OPS... if he did that every year with 20 SBs, he'd easily be a superstar, especially in the post steroid era. Since when do you have to hit over .290 to be a superstar? And in this age of baseball hitting 30 homers in a season or close to it is pretty impressive. He's not a superstar, no... but zito is definitely right that he has put up superstar like numbers when you factor in that he also has 20-30 SB speed. You say Miggy and Trout are currently superstars, you're right... but zito never said Justin was a superstar currently... just that he's put up superstar like stats in his career, which he has (but way to basically just look at Avg and homers to back up your conclusion).

2 All-Star games and a 4th finish in the MVP voting by the age of 26... how is that not impressive?

How is that superstar level?

[NinersSBChamps]

OMG, Justin is 10 times the player Prado is and its not even close... good lord. Last year was no contest... Upton was light years ahead of Prado and even less streaky.

In which ways? Prado is a better defender and can play multiple positions.

[jpx7]

How is that superstar level?

In which ways? Prado is a better defender and can play multiple positions.

This debate is really silly.

[yeezus]

In which ways? Prado is a better defender and can play multiple positions.

Really?
Prado was terrible for most of the year last year. We'd have been running in front of traffic if we had kept Prado instead of trading him for Upton knowing the deal could have been made and wasn't.
Some of you really only see what you want and make up your own facts. Prado was not better than JUp last year, and it wasn't that close.

[Teheran_49]

B.J. is done, I'm sorry but the guy can't even a hit a fastball down main street. I don't really get the Justin hate, he's a good player. Most hitters are streaky except the exceptional ones like a Freeman or Chipper. He may not be the .300/30/100 guy everyone has hoped for but he's still a .280/25/90 guy that plays very good defense in LF. Is he a mega star like Heyward or Freeman? No, but if he's your third best hitter in the line-up then that is more than fine. Who really is a better upgrade than JUp for LF? No one that we can afford. You don't need a perennial MVP at every position. We have two stars in J-Hey and Free and that's essentially all you need with some good players around them like Chris Johnson,JUp and Andrelton.

[NinersSBChamps]

Shows how much you research... he actually hit .300 in 2009 and put up an .899 OPS... in 2011 he up up a .289 avg with an .898 OPS... if he did that every year with 20 SBs, he'd easily be a superstar, especially in the post steroid era. Since when do you have to hit over .290 to be a superstar? And in this age of baseball hitting 30 homers in a season or close to it is pretty impressive. He's not a superstar, no... but zito is definitely right that he has put up superstar like numbers when you factor in that he also has 20-30 SB speed. You say Miggy and Trout are currently superstars, you're right... but zito never said Justin was a superstar currently... just that he's put up superstar like stats in his career, which he has (but way to basically just look at Avg and homers to back up your conclusion).

2 All-Star games and a 4th finish in the MVP voting by the age of 26... how is that not impressive?

All star games do not mean anything. It considers the first half of the season and that's all. Sure he had one impressive season where he got some MVP votes, but other than that he has been above average and nothing more.

[gilesfan]

You have to make that trade for Justin 100 times out of 100. He's younger and a better player. I love Prado as a player and the ability to play 2nd or 3rd and hit certainly help his value, but he's not on the level of Upton.

Having said that, Justin will likely never be a superstar and may not even be an all star. But, he's still a pretty darn good player.

[NinersSBChamps]

Don't know why there is so much dislike for Prado from some of you guys. Sure Upton's season was better than Prado's, but it wasn't so one sided like so many of you think

Prado had more hits, higher batting average, more doubles, more runs batted in, and 3 times less the amount of strikeouts. The throw in player in the Chris Johnson deal had better power and drew a good amount of walks. More homers and his slash line was higher save for batting average.

[Teheran_49]

Don't know why there is so much dislike for Prado from some of you guys. Sure Upton's season was better than Prado's, but it wasn't so one sided like so many of you think

Prado had more hits, higher batting average, more doubles, more runs batted in, and 3 times less the amount of strikeouts. The throw in player in the Chris Johnson deal had better power and drew a good amount of walks. More homers and his slash line was higher save for batting average.

I don't think there's hate for Prado as much as they're implying that JUp is a much better LF than Martin. I'd love to have Martin playing 2B and wish it was a possibility but it's not.

[yeezus]

Don't know why there is so much dislike for Prado from some of you guys. Sure Upton's season was better than Prado's, but it wasn't so one sided like so many of you think

Prado had more hits, higher batting average, more doubles, more runs batted in, and 3 times less the amount of strikeouts. The throw in player in the Chris Johnson deal had better power and drew a good amount of walks. More homers and his slash line was higher save for batting average.

Being real and going off facts does not equate to hate.
I loved Prado and his approach during his time here. If it's between he and Upton, the choice requires no hesitation.

[jpx7]

B.J. is done, I'm sorry but the guy can't even a hit a fastball down main street. I don't really get the Justin hate, he's a good player.

I think they're closely related, actually; even though those posters jumping on Justin wouldn't admit it, I think there's been a decent amount of fraternal bleed-over in terms of disappointment and disdain.

[Teheran_49]

I think they're closely related, actually; even though those posters jumping on Justin wouldn't admit it, I think there's been a decent amount of fraternal bleed-over in terms of disappointment and disdain.

I wonder how much it may bother Justin mentally that his bro is stinking it up as bad as he is. I know he wants to see his bro succeed but it has to weigh somewhat in his mind that his bro is just garbage at the plate.

[thewupk]

How is that superstar level?

In 2011 he had a wrc+ of 140 with a 6 war season. That is a superstar level year.

[VirginiaBrave]

Shows how much you research... he actually hit .300 in 2009 and put up an .899 OPS... in 2011 he up up a .289 avg with an .898 OPS... if he did that every year with 20 SBs, he'd easily be a superstar, especially in the post steroid era. Since when do you have to hit over .290 to be a superstar? And in this age of baseball hitting 30 homers in a season or close to it is pretty impressive. He's not a superstar, no... but zito is definitely right that he has put up superstar like numbers when you factor in that he also has 20-30 SB speed. You say Miggy and Trout are currently superstars, you're right... but zito never said Justin was a superstar currently... just that he's put up superstar like stats in his career, which he has (but way to basically just look at Avg and homers to back up your conclusion).

2 All-Star games and a 4th finish in the MVP voting by the age of 26... how is that not impressive?

The past is the past. BJ for whatever reason is not the player he was. He's not working out, but we are stuck with him.

[thethe]

You have to make that trade for Justin 100 times out of 100. He's younger and a better player. I love Prado as a player and the ability to play 2nd or 3rd and hit certainly help his value, but he's not on the level of Upton.

Having said that, Justin will likely never be a superstar and may not even be an all star. But, he's still a pretty darn good player.

Agree with this 100%.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I just find it amazing that people still talk about Upton like he is this elite player. He is what he is...a very good player but he isn't a superstar.

At least he's productive, I'm more confident in a pitcher hitting than I am BJ

[thethe]

At least he's productive, I'm more confident in a pitcher hitting than I am BJ

There is no debating this. Upton is just a big black hole right now. I was encouraged by his swings in the Spring but that doesn't mean a damn thing right now with him striking out every AB.

[zbhargrove]

How is that superstar level?

At his age, he has shown superstar potential (again, no one said he is a superstar just that he's shown glimpses of the potential)... I clearly stated the argument in the post. If you don't want to read it, that's fine.

[zbhargrove]

The past is the past. BJ for whatever reason is not the player he was. He's not working out, but we are stuck with him.

Wasn't talking about BJ...

[zbhargrove]

In which ways? Prado is a better defender and can play multiple positions.

Prado - career .772 OPS
Justin Upton - career .829 OPS with a lot more speed

Prado was not a great defender... they are about equal... the only thing Prado has on Upton is that he can be a super utility guy who plays a lot of positions in a pinch...
They aren't even close.

[VirginiaBrave]

My bad. Assumed because of the thread title. But to continue the discussion am I the only one that wishes we had Prado back in left and Dexter Fowler in center? I remember there being reports of talks with the Rockies.

[zbhargrove]

Don't know why there is so much dislike for Prado from some of you guys. Sure Upton's season was better than Prado's, but it wasn't so one sided like so many of you think

Prado had more hits, higher batting average, more doubles, more runs batted in, and 3 times less the amount of strikeouts. The throw in player in the Chris Johnson deal had better power and drew a good amount of walks. More homers and his slash line was higher save for batting average.

Who hates Prado? I loved Prado and have him on a fantasy baseball team... you're just speculating and putting words in people's mouths now.

[jpx7]

Upton is just a big black hole right now.

Racist. And objectifying.

[AUTiger7222]

I dont care what wrc+ says. Sounds like witchcraft if you ask me. Prado was rarely dead weight in the lineup. Justin is dead weight 50% of the season. Dead weight % > wrc+

Prado was dead weight the whole first half of last year. He was barely hitting above .200 at the start of June last year.

[AUTiger7222]

Can't help ignorance. And consistency is overrated. End numbers is what matters.

Consistency is overrated? Did you seriously just say that? :facepalm:

[Dalyn]

Prado was dead weight the whole first half of last year. He was barely hitting above .200 at the start of June last year.

And after getting hot for about two months, he went back to being dead weight in September. That's just how Prado is. Great bench player. Average starter (at best).

[CyYoung31]

Consistency is overrated? Did you seriously just say that? :facepalm:

30 homeruns and an .850 OPS at the end of the season is still 30 homeruns and an .850 OPS. It doesn't matter how you get there.

[zitothebrave]

Superstar levels? One season above 30 home runs and he had never hit above .290 in a season. Please elaborate on what superstar numbers he has? Superstars are Miggy and Trout currently.

You have a different definition of superstars. You're talking about MVP/generational talents. By that logic Chipper wasn't a superstar because he was never Barroids/A-Roid/etc. and I don't buy that. In 2011 Justin hit .289/.369/.529 netting him a grand total with his defense and baserunning of a 6.1 fWAR. That's superstar level.

[thethe]

You have a different definition of superstars. You're talking about MVP/generational talents. By that logic Chipper wasn't a superstar because he was never Barroids/A-Roid/etc. and I don't buy that. In 2011 Justin hit .289/.369/.529 netting him a grand total with his defense and baserunning of a 6.1 fWAR. That's superstar level.

Thats BS. There was a good 10 year run where Chipper was one of the top 5-10 hitters in the sport. Justin Upton has not reached that all. Maybe he was a top hitter 1 year but that is basically it.

[zitothebrave]

Thats BS. There was a good 10 year run where Chipper was one of the top 5-10 hitters in the sport. Justin Upton has not reached that all. Maybe he was a top hitter 1 year but that is basically it.

Take that up with Niners who said he only considers Trout/Miggy.

[thethe]

Take that up with Niners who said he only considers Trout/Miggy.

Ok, I just didn't care to read the rest. Even still, I just don't get why people are just assuming that Upton is or will be elite at this point. Again, I have never once said he was bad or even average. He is a good player but this overrating has to stop. And yes, I know that sounds ridiculous coming from me.

[CyYoung31]

Thats BS. There was a good 10 year run where Chipper was one of the top 5-10 hitters in the sport. Justin Upton has not reached that all. Maybe he was a top hitter 1 year but that is basically it.

Good to know you only take hitting into consideration.

[thethe]

Good to know you only take hitting into consideration.

Chipper or Justin get points for defense? If anything Chipper was a better defender than Upton.

[zitothebrave]

Ok, I just didn't care to read the rest. Even still, I just don't get why people are just assuming that Upton is or will be elite at this point. Again, I have never once said he was bad or even average. He is a good player but this overrating has to stop. And yes, I know that sounds ridiculous coming from me.

Justin was a fine hitter. top 40 in baseball.

[thewupk]

Consistency is overrated? Did you seriously just say that? :facepalm:

Over the course of a season your final numbers are what matters. A guy who goes from really hot to really cold but posts great offensive numbers is better then a guy who is consistently above average.

[thewupk]

Ok, I just didn't care to read the rest. Even still, I just don't get why people are just assuming that Upton is or will be elite at this point. Again, I have never once said he was bad or even average. He is a good player but this overrating has to stop. And yes, I know that sounds ridiculous coming from me.

Who is assuming that Upton is or will be elite? Most people know he has the potential to do it because he has done it before. However I think most people see him as a really good hitter who gets hot and goes into slumps (like most sluggers). If he posts a 3-4 WAR per year in his time remaining here I doubt you will see many people complain (except for those who get pissy because he's not consistent.)

[CyYoung31]

Chipper or Justin get points for defense? If anything Chipper was a better defender than Upton.

Justin hasn't looked great at times since his move to left, but he was/is a pretty good defender. He also gets points for base running.

[thethe]

Justin hasn't looked great at times since his move to left, but he was/is a pretty good defender. He also gets points for base running.

Yeah, and that is why he is a good player.

[mossy]

We just won a series in Milwaukee, a series we REALLY needed to show something in before heading to DC. Dan Uggla is showing signs of life, and we got 6+ innings of no hit ball from the least likely source.

Are we seriously writing off BJ after THREE GAMES??? :D

If we got swept, perhaps, but we have much bigger fish to fry. Worst case, put him in the 9 hole and continue with everything else.

Guys, life is short, way too short. Focus on the positives. It's not like we are relying on BJ to be Dale Murphy in the year 1987. This team is nothing but promise.

[AUTiger7222]

30 homeruns and an .850 OPS at the end of the season is still 30 homeruns and an .850 OPS. It doesn't matter how you get there.

I would enjoy it a lot more if it came over the course of 6 good months instead of 2 great months and 4 bad ones.

[zitothebrave]

I would enjoy it a lot more if it came over the course of 6 good months instead of 2 great months and 4 bad ones.

But it doesn't make a difference. Because of Justin ripping the tits off the ball we were able to coast all season basically on his back from that first month. Being better over a whole season vs part of the season has no proven advantage.

In a theory discussion let's say over the course of a season Justin Upton is worth 60 runs.

If he scores 20 in April and August and 5 in May, June, July and September that's the same 60 runs as him scoring 12 every month. Only thing that comes with consistency is it stops belly aching fans. Pretty much every player slumps. Justin slumped pretty hard, but he made up for it by being insanely hot twice. That happens with many players. It's the nature of the sport.

[Carp]

I gave up on the older Upton last yr around July. So his current production is really a disappointment for me. More like expected production.

[The Chosen One]

Uggla hit quite a few home runs in blowout games (losing and winning), so there's no way to quantify how less important his homers were. You look at the overall slash line and he has a lot, but I don't care for the ones he hits when we're losing 8-3 and it's a solo shot.

Justin I agree we all saw how his amazing April allowed us to coast the rest of the year.

[sturg33]

Uggla hit quite a few home runs in blowout games (losing and winning), so there's no way to quantify how less important his homers were. You look at the overall slash line and he has a lot, but I don't care for the ones he hits when we're losing 8-3 and it's a solo shot.

Justin I agree we all saw how his amazing April allowed us to coast the rest of the year.

I recall you saying this last year and I don't think it's true.

Not everyone HR can be a walk off. But I believe Uggla had a "normal" amount of timely HRs

[gilesfan]

And after getting hot for about two months, he went back to being dead weight in September. That's just how Prado is. Great bench player. Average starter (at best).

Your hatred of Prado continues to be on a borderline moronic level.

The guy is a career .292/.341/.430 hitter and plays 2B, 3B, LF. How many "great bench players" do that?

[Dalyn]

Your hatred of Prado continues to be on a borderline moronic level.

The guy is a career .292/.341/.430 hitter and plays 2B, 3B, LF. How many "great bench players" do that?

I don't hate him; I just don't like him as a starter. The guy proves my point every year.

[gilesfan]

I don't hate him; I just don't like him as a starter. The guy proves my point every year.

By being an above average starter?

[gilesfan]

Average ML 3B hit .251/.315/.397 last year.

Prado hit .282/.333/.417 with above average defense.

Great Bench Player.

[Hawk]

Great Bench Player.

Yeah, a great $11MM bench player.

[Dalyn]

Average ML 3B hit .251/.315/.397 last year.

Prado hit .282/.333/.417 with above average defense.

Great Bench Player.

I am not going to argue about Prado with you AGAIN. It is pointless. I personally don't like him as a starter for the Braves (and CERTAINLY not at his current salary).

[zitothebrave]

Dalyn really does have an irrational hate of Prado, I assume he's trolling at this point.

[gilesfan]

I am not going to argue about Prado with you AGAIN. It is pointless. I personally don't like him as a starter for the Braves (and CERTAINLY not at his current salary).

What do those have to do with your statement that he's a "great bench player/average (at best) starter?"

[Dalyn]

Dalyn really does have an irrational hate of Prado, I assume he's trolling at this point.

Hate has nothing to do with it. I don't hate any baseball player.

[Dalyn]

Average ML 3B hit .251/.315/.397 last year.

Prado hit .282/.333/.417 with above average defense.

Great Bench Player.

His career #'s as a 3B - .274 .326 .373 .699 So, for his career he is a below average 3B by your own measure.

[Dalyn]

As a starter for his career, he is at 99 OPS+. As a sub, he is at 119 OPS+.

[Dalyn]

And, health aside, one of the main reasons I don't want him on my favorite team as a starter is because when it is late and the pressure is on he rarely shows up.

Innings 7-9 - .265 .327 .390 .717

September - .275 .321 .379 .700

How is that irrational?

[gilesfan]

His career #'s as a 3B - .274 .326 .373 .699 So, for his career he is a below average 3B by your own measure.

So his numbers at other positions don't count?

I have a suspicion you don't know what tOPS+ means.

[Dalyn]

So his numbers at other positions don't count?

I have a suspicion you don't know what tOPS+ means.

I know what it means. And it shows that he doesn't perform at his best when starting.

[Dalyn]

So his numbers at other positions don't count?

I have a suspicion you don't know what tOPS+ means.

Not if you are going to talk about his numbers compared to the average 3B numbers.

[gilesfan]

I know what it means. And it shows that he doesn't perform at his best when starting.

And means nothing when you are talking about whether he's a starter or bench player.

Miguel Cabrera is 100+ as a starter and 150+ as a sub, maybe he's a great bench player too.

Also, Heyward has numbers lower than usual in Sept/Oct; do you happen to like him?

[gilesfan]

Not if you are going to talk about his numbers compared to the average 3B numbers.

So you expect his numbers to change whether hes playing 2B, 3B, LF, or pinch hitting?

[Dalyn]

And means nothing when you are talking about whether he's a starter or bench player.

Miguel Cabrera is 100+ as a starter and 150+ as a sub, maybe he's a great bench player too.

Also, Heyward has numbers lower than usual in Sept/Oct; do you happen to like him?

Heyward's numbers dip A LITTLE below his average. They don't tank. But if it continues year after year after year after year? Yeah. It would get irritating.

[Dalyn]

So you expect his numbers to change whether hes playing 2B, 3B, LF, or pinch hitting?

Yes. I think some positions take more out of some players. He is clearly a better overall player at 2B, for example. I don't think that goes for every player, but it is true for more than just Prado.

[gilesfan]

Interesting theory to support your pre conceived hatred of a player.

[Dalyn]

:happy0157:

And here we go again. Look. You like him as a starter. I don't. I've stated my reasons many times, and he continues to put up the stats that personally bother me, so my opinion hasn't changed.

[PurpleBrave]

No need to worry about keeping cool at the stadium with the Braves in town. The Upton's & Dan the Fan create enough of a breeze with the whiffs of their bats to knock your hat off.

[The Chosen One]

I'm encourage by BJ today. He fouled off a few balls and put the ball in play once. Can only get better from here.

[Carp]

His career #'s as a 3B - .274 .326 .373 .699 So, for his career he is a below average 3B by your own measure.

You know good and damn well those #'s are heavily weighted towards his 2011 season, of which he played hurt most of the season and sucked.

By your logic, I bet you would say McCann is a .700ish OPS catcher due to his 2012 season.

[zitothebrave]

You know good and damn well those #'s are heavily weighted towards his 2011 season, of which he played hurt most of the season and sucked.

By your logic, I bet you would say McCann is a .700ish OPS catcher due to his 2012 season.

Actually most of Prado's PT at 3B (38.4%) came last year, 2011 accounted for only 12.9% of his innings at 3B.

That split is highly silly, as if you look at last year, he had a .709 OPS at 3B, .810 at 2B and .831 in LF which is silly to blame on a single position.

That said, I guess Dalyn is really sticking to his trolling or he really believes it. Prado is a good player. 2-3 WAR type. We're way better off with Justin.

[Heyward]

No, he should be moved from the 2-hole though.

But someone did bring up a good point of not having Gattis/BJ/Uggla hitting back to back to back :Alone:

I suppose we could do JH/JU/FF/CJ/Uggla/Simmons/Gattis/BJ?

[cajunrevenge]

I would go Heywood-Uggla-Freeman-CJ-Simmon-Gattis-Justin-Schafer-pitcher

Use BJ to pinch run.

[Dalyn]

I would go Heywood-Uggla-Freeman-CJ-Simmon-Gattis-Justin-Schafer-pitcher

Use BJ to pinch run.

Schafer is the only outfielder on the team worse than BJ.

[BravesfanMike]

Too soon to move him from the 2 hole. Makes Freddi look indecisive. Give him a month then move him to number 8 and forget about him.
P.S. Every time Hale gets the ball he pitches well...so far anyway

[Heyward]

Too soon to move him from the 2 hole.

It's not, i'm one of the few Fredi supporters on here but having BJ in the 2-hole needs to stop/end ASAP.

[Dalyn]

Too soon to move him from the 2 hole. Makes Freddi look indecisive. Give him a month then move him to number 8 and forget about him.

We need someone who can take a ball hitting #8.

[Dalyn]

It's not, i'm one of the few Fredi supporters on here but having BJ in the 2-hole needs to stop/end ASAP.

It is even hurting Justin. The lineup is so much stronger with Heyward, Justin, Freeman, and Johnson at the top. Just consider whatever we get out of Uggla, Gattis, BJ, and Simmons a bonus.

[The Chosen One]

BJ at 2 or Simba leadoff?

[Dalyn]

BJ at 2 or Simba leadoff?

I think BJ second is a worse decision because Simmons hadn't failed so miserably previously.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Has there ever been 2 more overrated hyped players of this century than the uptons?

I mean they're talented and athletic no doubt, but man, the lack necessary baseball skills to survive and thrive at this level of play.

[yeezus]

Has there ever been 2 more overrated hyped players of this century than the uptons?


Yes.
Countless guys.
At least they've both been successful, and Justin will likely continue to be. There's a lot of hype for guys who never pan out.

[CyYoung31]

Has there ever been 2 more overrated hyped players of this century than the uptons?

I mean they're talented and athletic no doubt, but man, the lack necessary baseball skills to survive and thrive at this level of play.

Stop posting.

[The Chosen One]

Wilson Betemit took a while. The shortstop of the future only cut it as a utility guy.

[thewupk]

Wilson Betemit took a while. The shortstop of the future only cut it as a utility guy.

Andy Marte is flipping burgers somewhere

[Tapate50]

Can we discuss J Ups hole in his swing for belt high fast balls 87-91 mph?

[zitothebrave]

Has there ever been 2 more overrated hyped players of this century than the uptons?

I mean they're talented and athletic no doubt, but man, the lack necessary baseball skills to survive and thrive at this level of play.

The Upton brothers have a combined fWAR near 40. What about the 2 prospects around Justin Upton in 2006, Delmon Young and Brandon Wood. Or around him in 2007 with Wood again and ANdrew Miller.

Some more names. Kaz Matsui, Greg Miller, Jesse Foppart, Ian Stewart, Casey Kotchman, Andy Marte, Jeremy Hermida, Lastings Milledge, Cameron Maybin, Daisuke Matsuzaka, and I could go on were top 10 prospects who didn't amount to much. They're hardly very good major league careers.

And because I was bored, Adding all the players I listed above, removing Miller (no MLB experience) and Marte (negative fWAR) all those players combined for a 29.7 fWAR, 8 players totaling about 10 fWAR lower than Bossman and Justin.

[The Chosen One]

Man I remember when Lastings Milledge was the next big thing.
I'm thrilled that for the most part aside from injuries Heyward has lived up to his potential somewhat.

[The Chosen One]

Milledge was supposed to be McCutchen before McCutchen.

[zitothebrave]

Man I remember when Lastings Milledge was the next big thing.
I'm thrilled that for the most part aside from injuries Heyward has lived up to his potential somewhat.

Plenty of prospects bust. We're very very lucky that we haven't had a big miss recently. Our last big miss was Hanson because of his shoulder. Pre-Shoulder injury he was a fine pitcher but he wasn't meant to last unfortunately.

[bravesnumberone]

BJ owes the Braves a Joe Dimaggio-type hitting streak for his suckage. Good grief. How many straight fast balls does the man have to swing through?

Or watch go by...

[AUTiger7222]

No, he should be moved from the 2-hole though.

But someone did bring up a good point of not having Gattis/BJ/Uggla hitting back to back to back :Alone:

I suppose we could do JH/JU/FF/CJ/Uggla/Simmons/Gattis/BJ?

Put Uggla in the 2 hole. Uggla walks a ton. Would be nice to actually have guys on base in front of Freeman and Johnson.

[AUTiger7222]

Andy Marte is flipping burgers somewhere

Talk about a busted prospect. Remember of the years Chipper got hurt and Marte got the call and everyone just assumed that Marte would take the job and run with it and force Chipper back to the OF? Yeah what a joke that turned out to be.

[AUTiger7222]

Can we discuss J Ups hole in his swing for belt high fast balls 87-91 mph?

That is the most frustrating part about watching Justin Upton play. He can't hit BP fastballs right down the pipe.

[goldfly]

Andy Marte is flipping burgers somewhere

he made over 1.6 million playing baseball in salary alone

not counting signing bonuses etc

so i would say, over 2 million.

i hope he was smart enough to not end up flipping burgers with that much money

[zitothebrave]

Talk about a busted prospect. Remember of the years Chipper got hurt and Marte got the call and everyone just assumed that Marte would take the job and run with it and force Chipper back to the OF? Yeah what a joke that turned out to be.

The bummer with him, was he never quite put it all together. He had all the skills of a Beltre/Ramirez 3B with the pop and glove, he showed no major weaknesses though his K rate was a touch high, he showed very promising power to balance that. In reality the reason most got high on Marte, was because when he made the jump to high A and AA his BB rate soared. And in his jump to AA his power soared. People saw th epower spike and immediately thought David Wright is my guess who just had a similar power spike and was adding to the major league level. With Marte sadly I think his issues wound up being in his head. From his climb from rookieball to AA his OPS rose every step of the way, remained about equal with AA in AAA, then he never hit those levels again for a long time when he should have destroyed AAA everytime he was sent down there.

[thewupk]

Plenty of prospects bust. We're very very lucky that we haven't had a big miss recently. Our last big miss was Hanson because of his shoulder. Pre-Shoulder injury he was a fine pitcher but he wasn't meant to last unfortunately.

I wouldn't consider Hanson a bust because injuries derailing a career isn't really fair. He had the talent and was pitching really really well. I'd say our last true bust would be Marte. Luckily everyone since him (for the most part) has panned out and contributed somehow.

[cajunrevenge]

Last year first 4 games BJ had a walk and a sb in the first 4 games. This time its 1 hit and 1 sb in the first 4 games. If he fails to hit his weight again he can't possibly be the starting cf in 2015 right?

[thewupk]

he made over 1.6 million playing baseball in salary alone

not counting signing bonuses etc

so i would say, over 2 million.

i hope he was smart enough to not end up flipping burgers with that much money

True. He's not a basketball player so there is hope he saved some of it.

[thethe]

Hope Justin hits soon. He was supposed to be a given in our lineup.

[skillet]

Since joining the Braves last year, BJ has played in 130 games, encompassing 462 plate appearances. While that isn't a huge sample size, it is definitely large enough to get a pretty good guess as to what we might expect out of him going forward.

In those 462 PA's, he has hit .179 with an OBP of .260, SLG of .281, OPS of .541 that includes 44 walks and 160 strike outs. Those are statistics of epicly bad proportions.

I understand we still owe the man $60MM, but at some point, hopefully real soon, we come to the realization that we made a huge mistake signing him, accept it as a sunk cost, and cut him loose. He is hurting the team more by holding on to and playing him than cutting him loose and letting him flounder for someone else.

[Dalyn]

Hope Justin hits soon. He was supposed to be a given in our lineup.

He just has to adjust to Uggla being his protection.

[PawPawMaxwell]

When you speak of cutting him loose with 60M owed you should consider what a similar action did to the Orioles when Joey Belle went down with only 52M (IIRC) owed.

[bravesnumberone]

If we're stuck with him through the duration of the contract and he doesn't turn it around, then if the DH comes to the NL during that time, we have no other choice but to hit someone for him.

[Gary82]

he made over 1.6 million playing baseball in salary alone

not counting signing bonuses etc

so i would say, over 2 million.

i hope he was smart enough to not end up flipping burgers with that much money

I got this from a 2010 article but:

"MLB players must play 43 days in the majors to earn a minimum $34,000 annual pension plan. Just one day in the majors gets them lifetime healthcare coverage."

So, Andy is gonna be ok. He may own a franchise that flips burgers, but he won't be flipping them.

[jpx7]

I got this from a 2010 article but:

"MLB players must play 43 days in the majors to earn a minimum $34,000 annual pension plan. Just one day in the majors gets them lifetime healthcare coverage."

So, Andy is gonna be ok. He may own a franchise that flips burgers, but he won't be flipping them.

If you have a chance at playing professionally in either baseball or football, choose baseball.

[Nerfherders]

We need Jeff Galllooly to do a Nancy Kerrigan on him. Then he's out and insurance pays the cost. ;)

I kid, of course, but the thought did occur to me while watching the game yesterday.

[AUTiger7222]

If you have a chance at playing professionally in either baseball or football, choose baseball.

Fully guaranteed contracts, you damn straight!

[Knucksie]

At least the bitching about the Upton bros. could stop for one day.

[PurpleBrave]

Braves center field prospect Matt Lipka went 2-for-3 with a double on Monday night, and he is hitting .286/.375/.429 over his first four games in Double-A.
Lipka, the first-round pick for the Braves in 2010, hit .251/.305/.362 in High-A in 2013, so if he hits well he could become the starting center fielder in Atlanta once Fredi Gonzalez gives up on B.J. Upton. Lipka has two doubles and a stolen base, and profiles as a top of the order threat.

[thethe]

There is always a guy every year that takes a step forward that you don't expect. Hopefully Lipka can be that guy.

[zitothebrave]

There is always a guy every year that takes a step forward that you don't expect. Hopefully Lipka can be that guy.

Would be shocked. Lipka has flat out sucked since rookie ball. That being said would rock if he did start hitting.

[PurpleBrave]

This lineup could use a "top of the order" threat badly. Move Heyward down to the 2 spot or where ever. Right now it's like we have a second pitcher batting 2nd.

[zitothebrave]

This lineup could use a "top of the order" threat badly. Move Heyward down to the 2 spot or where ever. Right now it's like we have a second pitcher batting 2nd.

Heyward is traditionally a 3 hitter like Freddie. He just happens to have top speed which slots him on our team to be a leadoff.

That said, don't care about "prototypical" leadoff hitter. Lipka so far in the minors has struck out around 15% and walked around 7%. Not terrible but you typically figure in the majors the BB rate falls and the K rate rises. I'd much rather have Jason up there.

[PurpleBrave]

Speed is over rated for the top of the lineup. Would much rather have someone who can work a count and get on base. Heyward is probably the best we have right now, but he's better used elsewhere. Someone like LaStella projects as a great top of the order hitter imo...

[thethe]

I believe Peraza will be that guy but not until 2016 sadly.

I agree that LaStella is that guy. At least another guy in the lineup that will see pitches. I will give credit to Uggla at least for watching some pitches. Some of our guys are just clueless up there at times. They seem afriad to get to 2 strikes.

[zitothebrave]

Speed is over rated for the top of the lineup. Would much rather have someone who can work a count and get on base. Heyward is probably the best we have right now, but he's used elsewhere. Someone like LaStella projects as a great top of the order hitter imo...

I'm with you on TLS, sadly, we won't have 3 lefties to lead the lineup. So Heyward would probably be moved to 4

[Knucksie]

Braves center field prospect Matt Lipka went 2-for-3 with a double on Monday night, and he is hitting .286/.375/.429 over his first four games in Double-A.
Lipka, the first-round pick for the Braves in 2010, hit .251/.305/.362 in High-A in 2013, so if he hits well he could become the starting center fielder in Atlanta once Fredi Gonzalez gives up on B.J. Upton. Lipka has two doubles and a stolen base, and profiles as a top of the order threat.

Watch Lipka become the new La Stella now for the overreactive members of the forum.

[yeezus]

Watch Lipka become the new La Stella now for the overreactive members of the forum.

I still really fail to see how wanting to give La Stella a shot is considered "overreacting." Some here (like you) loved to spout and whine that fans were pumping up TLS too much, but all I saw were some who wanted to just give him a shot, especially considering the type of hitter he is and the type of lineup we have. What is so wrong with that? Why is that STILL a hammering point?

[zitothebrave]

Watch Lipka become the new La Stella now for the overreactive members of the forum.

If Lipka hits .300 walks more than he Ks and so on so forth then something to be excited about.

TLS is a freak of hitting.

[Teheran_49]

I still really fail to see how wanting to give La Stella a shot is considered "overreacting." Some here (like you) loved to spout and whine that fans were pumping up TLS too much, but all I saw were some who wanted to just give him a shot, especially considering the type of hitter he is and the type of lineup we have. What is so wrong with that? Why is that STILL a hammering point?

Agreed, the line up would be more consistent with a guy who takes walks, hits for high average and hots a ton of doubles. Instead we have 4 guys in the line up who either hit a HR or SO. It's the main reason we can't manufacture runs when we need to and it will continue to be that way. Uggla has been tearing the cover off the ball so right now no one can say anything about him but B.J. is well....

[Knucksie]

If Lipka hits .300 walks more than he Ks and so on so forth then something to be excited about.

TLS is a freak of hitting.

4 games at AA level isn't much to go on. "Small sample size" as they say. Give Lipka a year there, and a year or 2 and Gwinnett, then we can begin to discuss his future.

Hopefully, he re-asserts himself and justifies being drafted in the 1st round. Since he was picked, it's hard to remember anybody antitipating greatness from him.

[zitothebrave]

I have no faith in Lipka, I consider him a bench option if he's lucky.

Comparing him to TLS is dumb though. TLS has hit everywhere he's went. His worst offensive stop was hitting .302/.386/.460. The seeming out of nowhere excitement for him came because he did it in higher levels of the minors. When an older player crushes rookie and A ball people don't notice but when he improves going to AA they do.

[NinersSBChamps]

If TLS was such a great hitter then why didn't he make the club out of spring training?

[thethe]

If TLS was such a great hitter then why didn't he make the club out of spring training?

There are 12 million reasons.

[NinersSBChamps]

There are 12 million reasons.

Pastornicky doesn't get paid 12 million.

[Enscheff]

Because if someone is a legit candidate to be an everyday player you don't let him rot on the MLB bench rather than improving with consistent work in AAA. The biggest question about TLS is whether or not he can play 2B at the MLB level, and getting reps in AAA is exactly what he needs to improve those defensive skills.

Surely this type of prospect treatment isn't a foreign concept to you? If it is, I wonder....why do you even waste internet bandwidth commenting on prospects at all?

[zitothebrave]

Pastornicky doesn't get paid 12 million.

TLS needs defensive reps. Pastornicky has nothing he can add by playing in the minors. Braves will give Uggla a shot if he sucks TLS will be up before the season is over.

[Knucksie]

When's somebody going to open a rant thread about Heyward's start?

[Dalyn]

When's somebody going to open a rant thread about Heyward's start?

Soon. Dude is spreading his plunking headache all over the place.