Today's lineup suggestion - All About Gattis!

[AerchAngel]

Just an opinion.

CF Jordan S
SS Simmons
1B Freddy
RF J Upton
LF Gattis
2b Uggla
3b Johnson
C Laird.

Heyward needs a break and BJ can get a spell just to get a spell, not that anything is wrong with him. Get Jordon some at bats. I am torn between Gattis and the Pastor in left since Gattis love eating Philthy pitching.

So what do you guys think? Just opinions no need of flame wars.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Maybe Doumit vs Laird. Anything acceptable as long as Gattis stays in the lineup. Isnt Monday another off day?

[thethe]

Lets just keep the bear in the lineup. All the rest is gravy.

[GovClintonTyree]

Give Jordan a start in right field, maybe two. But I'd just replace Heyward in the lead off slot. I don't think I'd mess with Gattis behind the plate. And BJ is showing a pulse, so I don't think I'd mess with him either.

[sturg33]

Yeah Fredi better keep Gattis in the lineup today with the way he is hitting

[stpeteirish]

I'd rather rest Gattis than play him in LF. But it wouldn't be that terrible to have him catch a day game after a night game this early in the season, unless he's got an injury.

[weso1]

While it's tempting to play Gattis, I think you've still got to rest him. It's a long season and really it's his first long MLB season as a starting catcher. You want to make sure he doesn't wear down.

[The Chosen One]

Gattis had a day off on Tuesday.

[weso1]

Gattis had a day off on Tuesday.

True, but it's a day game after a night game. Wouldn't hurt to give Gattis a day or two more than some other catchers, jmo.

[thethe]

True, but it's a day game after a night game. Wouldn't hurt to give Gattis a day or two more than some other catchers, jmo.

He doens't have much mileage on his knees though..at least in comparison to other catchers his age.

[sturg33]

Yeah, I'm kind of the opinion that we need to ride Gattis hard for the next two years and then give him his walking papers when he's nearing 30 and let Bethancourt take over. I'm not too worried about Gattis' long term health.

[thethe]

Yeah, I'm kind of the opinion that we need to ride Gattis hard for the next two years and then give him his walking papers when he's nearing 30 and let Bethancourt take over. I'm not too worried about Gattis' long term health.

Wait a second...if this guy hits 30+ homers and plays adequate catcher then he isn't going anywhere. CB needs to prove he can hit a little before he takes the job of someone that hits like that.

Unless you are telling me that Gattis will eventually be in LF when the decision is made between Justin and Jason.

Why shouldn't we assume that Gattis will become a better hitter than he is now?

[weso1]

He doens't have much mileage on his knees though..at least in comparison to other catchers his age.

That's good and bad I think. Good because the knees stand a better chance at holding up from a purely physical stand point, but bad because he has no experience catching so many games. How will it wear on him both physically and mentally at the end of the season? I don't know. Never played catcher or mlb so I don't know what the impact could be later in the year. But I understand the decision to rest him if they do.

[thethe]

That's good and bad I think. Good because the knees stand a better chance at holding up from a purely physical stand point, but bad because he has no experience catching so many games. How will it wear on him both physically and mentally at the end of the season? I don't know. Never played catcher or mlb so I don't know what the impact could be later in the year. But I understand the decision to rest him if they do.

I guess you could look at it the way pitchers are treated. Gradually increasing his innings caught each year.

[nsacpi]

I would give Heyward tomorrow off not today. Niese on the mound. Maybe give BJ today off.

[The Chosen One]

Burnett is the type of pitcher Heyward needs to get back in. A fastball guy that throws some offspeed, but not unhittable like he was 10 years ago.

[PawPawMaxwell]

If Gattis continues to hit and hit with power, and you believe in building your team up the middle, then it is very conceivable that he is the next long term extension handed out.

OTOH, why not put him in LF occassionally? There must be a reason we carry 3 catchers and dont forget Bethancourt knocking on the door.

[Hawk]

BJ is just starting to swing the bat with some semblance of consistency. I wouldn't pull him out.

[The Chosen One]

If Gattis continues to hit and hit with power, and you believe in building your team up the middle, then it is very conceivable that he is the next long term extension handed out.

OTOH, why not put him in LF occassionally? There must be a reason we carry 3 catchers and dont forget Bethancourt knocking on the door.

It just hurts he's a catcher and plays in the NL (no DH).

He's what 26? When we gave Mac the 6 year extension in 2006, he was only 21. Thankfully Francoeur didn't bite.

By the time he's 30 he may not even produce anymore. He'll still be in his arby years so why give him a lucrative extension?

[thethe]

It just hurts he's a catcher and plays in the NL (no DH).

He's what 26? When we gave Mac the 6 year extension in 2006, he was only 21. Thankfully Francoeur didn't bite.

By the time he's 30 he may not even produce anymore. He'll still be in his arby years so why give him a lucrative extension?

Its very possible that Gattis becomes one of the few 35+ home run guys in the major leagues moving forward. COnsidering the fact that he hasn't made any money and is close to the middle-end of his career I think he would take an under market value deal.

It seems strange to me that people don't think its possible for Gattis to become one of the best power hitters in the majors for the next 4-5 years.

[PawPawMaxwell]

It just hurts he's a catcher and plays in the NL (no DH).

He's what 26? When we gave Mac the 6 year extension in 2006, he was only 21. Thankfully Francoeur didn't bite.

By the time he's 30 he may not even produce anymore. He'll still be in his arby years so why give him a lucrative extension?

Because if he becomes a 30+ HR guy, a lucrative extension does not hurt his trade value to an AL team when the time is appropriate.

[nsacpi]

If Gattis continues to hit and hit with power, and you believe in building your team up the middle, then it is very conceivable that he is the next long term extension handed out.

OTOH, why not put him in LF occassionally? There must be a reason we carry 3 catchers and dont forget Bethancourt knocking on the door.

I've been puzzled by some of the comments (by Wren and some posters here) about Bethancourt being the catcher of the future. Bethancourt has the great defense, but the bat has been very slow to develop. I'm not as optimistic as others about him. I was pleased to see that Caratini is now being used mainly as a catcher. If he stays behind the plate, it would really set us up nicely at catcher.

[sturg33]

Gattis is not in today's lineup.

Fredi :facepalm:

[sturg33]

Wait a second...if this guy hits 30+ homers and plays adequate catcher then he isn't going anywhere. CB needs to prove he can hit a little before he takes the job of someone that hits like that.

Unless you are telling me that Gattis will eventually be in LF when the decision is made between Justin and Jason.

Why shouldn't we assume that Gattis will become a better hitter than he is now?

I'm not optimistic that Gattis will age well. I think we should ride him hard for this year and enxt, then trade him pre-arb when his value his high.

I still have plenty of doubts of him as a hitter. He is in a hot streak right now. But next week he will go o-fo-20 with 0 walks. He really needs to start showing some plate discipline. You saw what happened to him late last year. Over matched.

[AerchAngel]

I've been puzzled by some of the comments (by Wren and some posters here) about Bethancourt being the catcher of the future. Bethancourt has the great defense, but the bat has been very slow to develop. I'm not as optimistic as others about him. I was pleased to see that Caratini is now being used mainly as a catcher. If he stays behind the plate, it would really set us up nicely at catcher.

How is Caratini?

[Braves1976]

Gattis is not in today's lineup.

Fredi :facepalm:

This was announced after the game last night so it shouldn't be a surprise. It was even posted last night at Braves.com in one of the articles. I am not saying I agree with it though. I'd started him today too because he's hot and plays so well in Philly. Plus as it has been noted he already had Tuesday off (and this past Sunday too).

[PawPawMaxwell]

I'm not optimistic that Gattis will age well. I think we should ride him hard for this year and enxt, then trade him pre-arb when his value his high.

I still have plenty of doubts of him as a hitter. He is in a hot streak right now. But next week he will go o-fo-20 with 0 walks. He really needs to start showing some plate discipline. You saw what happened to him late last year. Over matched.

So how about sharing your views on Heyward.

[nsacpi]

How is Caratini?

He is the anti-Bethancourt. Much better bat than glove. Too bad we can't combine the two. He is a switch hitter who shows both power and patience at the plate. I think his glove is more likely to develop to major league average than Bethancourt's bat is likely to develop to major league average for their position.

[thethe]

I'm not optimistic that Gattis will age well. I think we should ride him hard for this year and enxt, then trade him pre-arb when his value his high.

I still have plenty of doubts of him as a hitter. He is in a hot streak right now. But next week he will go o-fo-20 with 0 walks. He really needs to start showing some plate discipline. You saw what happened to him late last year. Over matched.

He was rushed last year due to the injuries and forced his way onto the team. Its very possible that he becomes a better hitter with more experience. I agree that the scale can tilt the other way but he has some interesting tools that I don't think he should take for granted. He doesn't have the wear and tear on his body that most catchers his age have.

[Braves1976]

I would give Heyward tomorrow off not today. Niese on the mound. Maybe give BJ today off.

Have you seen Heyward's numbers vs Niese? I'd not sit him vs someone he hits so well, esp. since his defense is helping a lot. Plus Citi field isn't exactly the best place to start Doumit in the outfield, IMO. Of course that's assuming you are not suggesting starting Schafer vs a lefty.

[The Chosen One]

Have you seen Heyward's numbers vs Niese? I'd not sit him vs someone he hits so well, esp. since his defense is helping a lot.

Yeah but the post traumatic stress of Niese being the guy that broke your jaw.

[sturg33]

So how about sharing your views on Heyward.

I love Heyward. Has all the tools to be a star and has shown he can be one. But he can be extremely frustrating to watch.

When he came into the league in 2010, he was a megastar. His stance, swing, power, and plate discipline were all the best I've ever seen of his career. Then he hurt his thumb and everything went to hell.

Look at his opening day home run in 2010. Look how different his stance was. If you look at highlights of the first month of that season, he literally was able to get under the ball almost all the time. Now he's constantly on top of it and it crushes his offensive potential.

The problem with Heyward is, one day he WILL put it together. And I really want it to be with us.

[sturg33]

He was rushed last year due to the injuries and forced his way onto the team. Its very possible that he becomes a better hitter with more experience. I agree that the scale can tilt the other way but he has some interesting tools that I don't think he should take for granted. He doesn't have the wear and tear on his body that most catchers his age have.

... he still hasn't drawn a walk this year.

Look, for league minimum, Gattis is a stud to have on the team. The power alone makes him worth it. When he turns 30 and will be making $5M or more in arbitration, I'm not sure his other skills - defense and OBP ability, will be worth it. But I think another team will overpay for the home runs. Besides, we have a good replacement waiting anyway

[nsacpi]

Have you seen Heyward's numbers vs Niese? I'd not sit him vs someone he hits so well, esp. since his defense is helping a lot. Plus Citi field isn't exactly the best place to start Doumit in the outfield, IMO. Of course that's assuming you are not suggesting starting Schafer vs a lefty.

Actually, I haven't checked his numbers against Niese. I was thinking about the broken jaw. But Heyward looked so bad against Lee, I thought he should get a day off against the next lefty we face. Yeah, I'd go with Doumit in left and Justin in right if I sat Heyward.

[jpx7]

BJ is just starting to swing the bat with some semblance of consistency. I wouldn't pull him out.

Agreed. And, honestly, I think it's still a couple weeks to early to start making wholesale changes to the lineup.

[thethe]

... he still hasn't drawn a walk this year.

Look, for league minimum, Gattis is a stud to have on the team. The power alone makes him worth it. When he turns 30 and will be making $5M or more in arbitration, I'm not sure his other skills - defense and OBP ability, will be worth it. But I think another team will overpay for the home runs. Besides, we have a good replacement waiting anyway

Do we hvae a good replacement waiting? I'm not so sure.

[sturg33]

Do we hvae a good replacement waiting? I'm not so sure.

I think so. Bethancourt's defense alone will make him good enough to stick. And he has some good power potential as well.

[jpx7]

I love Heyward. Has all the tools to be a star and has shown he can be one. But he can be extremely frustrating to watch.

When he came into the league in 2010, he was a megastar. His stance, swing, power, and plate discipline were all the best I've ever seen of his career. Then he hurt his thumb and everything went to hell.

Look at his opening day home run in 2010. Look how different his stance was. If you look at highlights of the first month of that season, he literally was able to get under the ball almost all the time. Now he's constantly on top of it and it crushes his offensive potential.

The problem with Heyward is, one day he WILL put it together. And I really want it to be with us.

Nailed it.

[nsacpi]

I see Bethancourt as a journeyman/backup catcher type in the majors.

[thethe]

I think so. Bethancourt's defense alone will make him good enough to stick. And he has some good power potential as well.

You know I'm as big of a prospect homer as it gets but CB needs to hit a little to stick. If he can't OPS 650 consistently in the minors what is he going to do in the majors?

Gattis is not an awful defensive catcher and he has the potential to hit 35+ homers. Thats really rare and not something we should just take lightly.

[sturg33]

You know I'm as big of a prospect homer as it gets but CB needs to hit a little to stick. If he can't OPS 650 consistently in the minors what is he going to do in the majors?

Gattis is not an awful defensive catcher and he has the potential to hit 35+ homers. Thats really rare and not something we should just take lightly.

I keep comping Bethancourt to Yadier Molina. Perhaps that's a mistake, but they seem very similar to me. But it could just be a lazy comparison.

Anyways, Yadier put up a career OPS in the minors of .703. His age 20 season in AA, he put up a .660 OPS. Bethancourt last year put up a .741 (age 21). His career .669. So yes, Yadier was a SLIGHTLY better hitter in the minors, they are pretty similar.

Bethancourt isn't going to do much until he learns some plate discipline. But his defense is other-worldly and has some solid power potential. I think the return of a Gattis trade + Bethancourt + the millions $ saved will be far more valuable than Gattis in his age 30 season.

[thethe]

I keep comping Bethancourt to Yadier Molina. Perhaps that's a mistake, but they seem very similar to me. But it could just be a lazy comparison.

Anyways, Yadier put up a career OPS in the minors of .703. His age 20 season in AA, he put up a .660 OPS. Bethancourt last year put up a .741 (age 21). His career .669. So yes, Yadier was a SLIGHTLY better hitter in the minors, they are pretty similar.

Bethancourt isn't going to do much until he learns some plate discipline. But his defense is other-worldly and has some solid power potential. I think the return of a Gattis trade + Bethancourt + the millions $ saved will be far more valuable than Gattis in his age 30 season.

Not saying its a bad option to go your way. I just think we should be careful. If Gattis improves even slightly as a hitter then you really have something.

[gilesfan]

I see Bethancourt as a journeyman/backup catcher type in the majors.

Do you want a 22 year old defensive stud that is still learning with the bat or a 27 year old defensive liability with 1 true baseball skill (power)?

I think a lot of it depends on what type of team you are building and if you have other guys in the lineup to carry a defensive SS and/or C.

[Hawk]

You know I'm as big of a prospect homer as it gets but CB needs to hit a little to stick. If he can't OPS 650 consistently in the minors what is he going to do in the majors?

At this point I think I would be OK with CB morphing into a glove only backup ala Henry Blanco.

[nsacpi]

Do you want a 22 year old defensive stud that is still learning with the bat or a 27 year old defensive liability with 1 true baseball skill (power)?

I think a lot of it depends on what type of team you are building and if you have other guys in the lineup to carry a defensive SS and/or C.

I would definitely take Gattis. Ain't even close. Gattis is gonna get MVP votes before his career is over.

[gilesfan]

At this point I think I would be OK with CB morphing into a glove only backup ala Henry Blanco.

I would rather carry CB as a starter, with a decent backup, and carry Gattis as a "Mike Napoli" type 3rd catcher/guy that moves around a little bit/pinch hits. He would get plenty of at bats occasionally spending some time behind the plate, pinch hitting, DHing, and playing some in left.

[thethe]

I would definitely take Gattis. Ain't even close. Gattis is gonna get MVP votes before his career is over.

Its so strange to me how people just think Gattis is a sideshow and not what he is...a produtive baseball player with the potential to be really damn good.

[gilesfan]

I would definitely take Gattis. Ain't even close. Gattis is gonna get MVP votes before his career is over.

I had to double check who wrote this.

[thethe]

I had to double check who wrote this.

Still think Gattis is a failure?

[gilesfan]

Still think Gattis is a failure?

Not a failure, just not as good as you claim.

[nsacpi]

I had to double check who wrote this.

You should. Cuz so far I've been far more right about him than you have in this little extended debate we've been having. When all is said and done Gattis will do better on measures such as All-Star appearances and MVP voting than Bethancourt.

[jpx7]

Still think Gattis is a failure?

Not a failure, just not as good as you claim.

I think we'll know a lot more about Gattis following this season—and hopefully know a little more about Bethancourt—at which point it'll be a lot easier and more sensible to try to project the next half-decade of catching responsibilities for the Braves.

[The Chosen One]

Gattis still has plenty of time to improve catching. He took off baseball for what, 5 years?

[The Chosen One]

Good thing we didn't trade for David Price.

He'd probably would have already been to Dr. Andrew with us.

[Braves1976]

Still think Gattis is a failure?

I don't even take Gilesfan's posts concerning Gattis seriously anymore. He's bashed him so much and so many ways it's obvious he cannot be objective. But others here very much underrated and talk nonsense about Gattis a lot too. The game-threads the first week were filled with such nonsense (no different than last year either).

Personally, I expected a slow start by Gattis after the injury in spring training keeping him out some games. Gattis never had time to get in a groove when he came back from that late in spring training. So you'd expect a slow start the first series or two of the year. But he's actually gotten hot faster than I had expected thankfully. He's been huge to our success in this Philly series of course.

[gilesfan]

I think we'll know a lot more about Gattis following this season—and hopefully know a little more about Bethancourt—at which point it'll be a lot easier and more sensible to try to project the next half-decade of catching responsibilities for the Braves.

Probably the best answer. Get to see another year of development for CB. Get to see if Gattis can improve on his numbers from last year and cut out the passed balls/wild pitches. Before Philly there was concern of his lack of patience, but 3 homers in a series and the talk is back to him receiving MVP votes.

[sturg33]

Its so strange to me how people just think Gattis is a sideshow and not what he is...a produtive baseball player with the potential to be really damn good.

I think Gattis is a tremendous value for us right now. I supported the decision to let Mac walk because dollar for dollar, Gattis will be far more valuable than him.

I would be a lot more bullish on Gattis' long term if he wasn't so "old" now. I think he will be a good player for us until he gets around 30. Coincidentally, that is when he'll be getting very expensive, and that is when hopefully, CB will be ready to take over. Teams will overpay for Gattis' power, and we should take advantage of that.

But I'm in no rush to get rid of the guy for the next couple of years.

[CyYoung31]

At this point, I'd be ok with Laird making a mysterious trip to the DL and making Bethancourt our primary back up catcher.

[GovClintonTyree]

Do you want a 22 year old defensive stud that is still learning with the bat or a 27 year old defensive liability with 1 true baseball skill (power)?

I think a lot of it depends on what type of team you are building and if you have other guys in the lineup to carry a defensive SS and/or C.

This comment is galactically retarded.

Gattis isn't all power; Gattis can flat hit. It's not like he's a caveman up there with a cudgel. Good lord, he's hitting .380 and slugging .600. Who gives a **** if he walks? They'll stop pitching to him soon enough, and he'll get some walks.

To insult his catching means you aren't watching or listening. He blocks and frames very well, he's got a gun, the pitchers love throwing to him. The starters' ERA is below 2.00. Exactly what the f*** does the guy need to do to stop with the "plug him in until Bet's ready" crowd? He's Johnny Bench and Bethancourt is Johnny Estrada.

[CyYoung31]

This comment is galactically retarded.

Gattis isn't all power; Gattis can flat hit. It's not like he's a caveman up there with a cudgel. Good lord, he's hitting .380 and slugging .600. Who gives a **** if he walks? They'll stop pitching to him soon enough, and he'll get some walks.

To insult his catching means you aren't watching or listening. He blocks and frames very well, he's got a gun, the pitchers love throwing to him. The starters' ERA is below 2.00. Exactly what the f*** does the guy need to do to stop with the "plug him in until Bet's ready" crowd? He's Johnny Bench and Bethancourt is Johnny Estrada.

Estrada was an all bat, no glove catcher so that comp doesn't really hold water.

[GovClintonTyree]

Estrada was an all bat, no glove catcher so that comp doesn't really hold water.

I didn't mean for it to. I wanted another Johnny to go with Bench.

Can you think of a catch and throw guy named Johnny? Johnny Oates?

[CyYoung31]

I didn't mean for it to. I wanted another Johnny to go with Bench.

Can you think of a catch and throw guy named Johnny? Johnny Oates?

Gattis is Yogi Berra and Bethancourt is Yogi Bear?

[thethe]

People better get used to Evan Gattis being a brave. Don't discount his marketing value to the Braves. The fans love him and he makes money for the organization.

[zitothebrave]

People better get used to Evan Gattis being a brave. Don't discount his marketing value to the Braves. The fans love him and he makes money for the organization.

He has 3 or 4 more years. He'll be in his 30s at that point and I have a hunch he'll break down fast and his HR totals will net big arb numbers.

[GovClintonTyree]

Gattis is Yogi Berra and Bethancourt is Yogi Bear?

Bullseye.

[zitothebrave]

This comment is galactically retarded.

Gattis isn't all power; Gattis can flat hit. It's not like he's a caveman up there with a cudgel. Good lord, he's hitting .380 and slugging .600. Who gives a **** if he walks? They'll stop pitching to him soon enough, and he'll get some walks.

To insult his catching means you aren't watching or listening. He blocks and frames very well, he's got a gun, the pitchers love throwing to him. The starters' ERA is below 2.00. Exactly what the f*** does the guy need to do to stop with the "plug him in until Bet's ready" crowd? He's Johnny Bench and Bethancourt is Johnny Estrada.

I have severe doubts about Gattis's ability to block.

Gattis last year had 17 WP and 2 PB in 349.2 innings. Laird had 14 and 2 in 429, Mac had 17 and 3 in 806.1 innings. Gattis clearly has the most balls get by him in a per inning basis. That is concerning. Could be flukey but he's well onto similar numbers this year. He's solid of course but I wouldn't say he's anything special behind the plate. I'd say he's above average at framing and throwing guys out, and below average at blocking. Step down from Mac and absolutely a big step down from Bethancourt. Bethancourt by all reports (haven't seen him play enough to confirm) is more like Yadier Molina defensively which is clearly in a different class than Gattis.

I'm on the cautious with Bethancourt thing. But I absolutely thing we have catcher time split basically down the middle next year unles we trade one of Bethancourt or Gattis.

[GovClintonTyree]

I remember reading an article in Bill James' baseball annual perhaps 20 years ago in which Bill advanced the hypothesis that offense is far more important than defense, and that in order to optimize offense, players should play at the absolute toughest position they can play competently.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than giving Carlos Gomez and Gerardo Parra credit for phantom wins above replacement.

Anybody have any question - any at all - whether Gattis is a competent catcher? Clearly he is. Until Bethancourt can OPS .800-.850 in the show, I'd say he looks good in Gwinnett - where, by the way, he isn't walking, either, but is also hitting under the UU line.*

*Upton-Uggla. Nobody even remembers Mario Mendoza, and sure as hell nobody paid him $13m.

[thethe]

He has 3 or 4 more years. He'll be in his 30s at that point and I have a hunch he'll break down fast and his HR totals will net big arb numbers.

That's fine. But there is no reason to consider replacing him for.the next few years.

[zitothebrave]

I remember reading an article in Bill James' baseball annual perhaps 20 years ago in which Bill advanced the hypothesis that offense is far more important than defense, and that in order to optimize offense, players should play at the absolute toughest position they can play competently.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than giving Carlos Gomez and Gerardo Parra credit for phantom wins above replacement.

Anybody have any question - any at all - whether Gattis is a competent catcher? Clearly he is. Until Bethancourt can OPS .800-.850 in the show, I'd say he looks good in Gwinnett - where, by the way, he isn't walking, either, but is also hitting under the UU line.*

*Upton-Uggla. Nobody even remembers Mario Mendoza, and sure as hell nobody paid him $13m.

Well part of the problem with something 20 years ago has to do with the advancement of statistical analysis and the influence of certain parts of baseball on FA that drives up the cost of certain assets.

Bethancourt is our future catcher by almost all standards. Unless he craps the bed offensively in the minors. I'm fine with Gattis at catcher in the interim.

Yadier Molina is a great example of letting a toolsy player develop. Yadier didn't show his offensive potential until he was 28 and started killing it and is now a perennial MVP candidate. That's the potential you have with Bethancourt.

[GovClintonTyree]

Well part of the problem with something 20 years ago has to do with the advancement of statistical analysis and the influence of certain parts of baseball on FA that drives up the cost of certain assets.

Bethancourt is our future catcher by almost all standards. Unless he craps the bed offensively in the minors. I'm fine with Gattis at catcher in the interim.

Yadier Molina is a great example of letting a toolsy player develop. Yadier didn't show his offensive potential until he was 28 and started killing it and is now a perennial MVP candidate. That's the potential you have with Bethancourt.

Defense doesn't mean as much as the metrics suggest, then or now. It is not worthless, certainly, but if Dan Uggla OBPs .360 with 30 homers, as long as he is an adequate defender, he's an excellent second baseman. The idea of paying Gerardo Parra $20m is absurd, but that's what the WARmongers would have you do.

The Bethancourt/Molina comparison leaves me absolutely cold. I don't see it. Bethancourt can't hit and isn't going to. He's a real good catch and throw guy just like Henry Blanco and a thousand others. Gattis is a leader and a gamechanger. He's a horse, flat out.

There ought to be a way to categorize a guy who not only has a tool, but is in the top 5%. In addition to being an excellent hitter, Gattis has light tower power. That one tool should get credit for two tools.

[sturg33]

That's fine. But there is no reason to consider replacing him for.the next few years.

Which is what I'm suggesting. I think once Gattis starts getting paid like a 30 HR catcher, it will be time to turn him loose. That's not for a couple of years from now.

[sturg33]

I agree with Gov that Bet hasn't shown enough at the plate yet. But I think we'd be idiots not to let him try before giving up on him. He's only 22 (maybe 21?), and has shown flashes of potential. If he puts it all together, we will have a freakin stud on our hands

[thethe]

Which is what I'm suggesting. I think once Gattis starts getting paid like a 30 HR catcher, it will be time to turn him loose. That's not for a couple of years from now.

And if he continues to be a 30HR catcher for the next 2-3 years I think we should expect an extension to be worked out. Its not like Gattis is all of a sudden going to become a weak hitter. His power will stay with him into his 30's. This is a Brian Maccann situation where you are concerned about his body type. Gattis is a physical specimen and until his body type changes then I wouldn't expect his power to be completely gone.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I wouldnt expect Gattis' power to go away in this millenium. He may even have a future as a hitting coach down the road.

Watch his feet, watch his hands, watch his head. NO MOVEMENT.

And Wednesday nite, I swear it appeared to me that he moved up in the box after Lee struck him out his first AB with the breaking stuff. Bingo, HR.

[thethe]

I wouldnt expect Gattis' power to go away in this millenium. He may even have a future as a hitting coach down the road.

Watch his feet, watch his hands, watch his head. NO MOVEMENT.

And Wednesday nite, I swear it appeared to me that he moved up in the box after Lee struck him out his first AB with the breaking stuff. Bingo, HR.

Lee didn't get him out once. Gattis is the man.

[nsacpi]

If any of you get a chance to go to a game early to watch Gattis take batting practice, it is worth the expedition.

[gilesfan]

Defense doesn't mean as much as the metrics suggest, then or now. It is not worthless, certainly, but if Dan Uggla OBPs .360 with 30 homers, as long as he is an adequate defender, he's an excellent second baseman. The idea of paying Gerardo Parra $20m is absurd, but that's what the WARmongers would have you do.

The Bethancourt/Molina comparison leaves me absolutely cold. I don't see it. Bethancourt can't hit and isn't going to. He's a real good catch and throw guy just like Henry Blanco and a thousand others. Gattis is a leader and a gamechanger. He's a horse, flat out.

There ought to be a way to categorize a guy who not only has a tool, but is in the top 5%. In addition to being an excellent hitter, Gattis has light tower power. That one tool should get credit for two tools.

So you are comparing the defensive worth of a RF to a 2B and a catcher?

Was Molina a good hitter at age 22?

What makes Gattis a "leader?" Does he have great makeup?

Gattis hit .240 last year with a terrible OBP. Im not sure how we gather he's an excellent hitter (when used in a context that is seperate from power) You are claiming that he's an excellent hitter PLUS has light tower power? Its more like he has great power, which somewhat offsets his lack of skills at hitting for a high average or getting on base.

[gilesfan]

If any of you get a chance to go to a game early to watch Gattis take batting practice, it is worth the expedition.

No one can top Glenallen Hill in batting practice

[gilesfan]

And if he continues to be a 30HR catcher for the next 2-3 years I think we should expect an extension to be worked out. Its not like Gattis is all of a sudden going to become a weak hitter. His power will stay with him into his 30's. This is a Brian Maccann situation where you are concerned about his body type. Gattis is a physical specimen and until his body type changes then I wouldn't expect his power to be completely gone.

Lets have him hit 30 homers as a catcher before projecting that he's going to "continue" to do so.

As for him holding up, how many outside of Piazza (possibly steriod aided) help up into their mid 30s? Pudge Rogriguez really fell off, wasnt he in great shape? Joe Mauer has moved from catcher. Jason Kendall seemed to be in good shape.

[thethe]

Lets have him hit 30 homers as a catcher before projecting that he's going to "continue" to do so.

As for him holding up, how many outside of Piazza (possibly steriod aided) help up into their mid 30s? Pudge Rogriguez really fell off, wasnt he in great shape? Joe Mauer has moved from catcher. Jason Kendall seemed to be in good shape.

I'm not saying we should keep him at catcher until his mid 30's but people are rushing to put CB in there righ tnow. Gattis is going to be productive for the next 4-5 years most likely. He is starting to go the other way now and once he gets that down he will be getting lots of big hits.

And you can't comprae Gattis to other catchers. Those other guys you were talking about caught a lot of innings before the age of 25. That isn't the case with Gattis.

[gilesfan]

I'm not saying we should keep him at catcher until his mid 30's but people are rushing to put CB in there righ tnow. Gattis is going to be productive for the next 4-5 years most likely. He is starting to go the other way now and once he gets that down he will be getting lots of big hits.

And you can't comprae Gattis to other catchers. Those other guys you were talking about caught a lot of innings before the age of 25. That isn't the case with Gattis.


32 years old is still 32 years old. Anyone older than 30 can tell you your body doesn't react the same.

[thethe]

32 years old is still 32 years old. Anyone older than 30 can tell you your body doesn't react the same.

I'm not disagreeing with that but you can keep yourself in great shape and he is in a better spot than other catchers at his age because of the decreased aggregate workload. I'm not saying Gattis will be catching into his late 30's but I'm not worried about Gattis catching in his early 30's at all.

[nsacpi]

This is Gattis' age 27 season. He will hit free agency after his age 31 season. I'm not too concerned about what happens after that. But physically he should be able to be a productive catcher through his age 31 season.

He has 25 home runs in 391 career at bats. This year I think Fredi wants to be conservative with his workload because it is his first major league season as the starting catcher and he had minor knee surgery in the off-season. In a normal year he can expect to get about 500 ABs. This year, he'll probably get about 450. I think in a normal 500 AB season, he'll have 30-35 home runs. Some more, some less.

[DirkPiggler]

So you are comparing the defensive worth of a RF to a 2B and a catcher?

Was Molina a good hitter at age 22?

What makes Gattis a "leader?" Does he have great makeup?

Gattis hit .240 last year with a terrible OBP. Im not sure how we gather he's an excellent hitter (when used in a context that is seperate from power) You are claiming that he's an excellent hitter PLUS has light tower power? Its more like he has great power, which somewhat offsets his lack of skills at hitting for a high average or getting on base.

In the very same post you are implying that it is okay to project Bethancourt as a decent to good hitter by using Yadier Molina as a potential comp, while dismissing Gattis as a one tool player using a small sample size. Isn't it possible that Gattis could improve his plate discipline and become a more complete hitter? I'd argue that there's every bit as much chance of that happening as there was of Molina going from a sub .700 OPS guy to an .850 - .900 middle of the order hitter. I know Gattis is a good bit older than Molina was when he was putting up average to below average offensive seasons, but Evan also has a lot fewer miles on him behind the plate. At the time of his breakout season Molina had 1,081 games (major and minor) at C, while to this point Gattis has 166.

Gattis probably won't develop any further physically, but he's still very limited in baseball experience. He has ample opportunity ahead of him to improve the weaker parts of his game.

I'm much more worried about the prospect that Evan will flake out and head for the mountains again if he hits a stretch where things don't go well for a while than I am of him failing to continue to develop his skills over the next few years.

[gilesfan]

This is Gattis' age 27 season. He will hit free agency after his age 31 season. I'm not too concerned about what happens after that. But physically he should be able to be a productive catcher through his age 31 season.

He has 25 home runs in 391 career at bats. This year I think Fredi wants to be conservative with his workload because it is his first major league season as the starting catcher and he had minor knee surgery in the off-season. In a normal year he can expect to get about 500 ABs. This year, he'll probably get about 450. I think in a normal 500 AB season, he'll have 30-35 home runs. Some more, some less.

Yeah, I don't expect huge regression in Gattis before free agency, it's after that I would concerned about. Its what level of exception you have for now before any regression.

[nsacpi]

Yeah, I don't expect huge regression in Gattis before free agency, it's after that I would concerned about. Its what level of exception you have for now before any regression.

I'm basically expecting his ISO to hold steady through age 31. The area where there might be some improvement would be in the walk rate.

[gilesfan]

In the very same post you are implying that it is okay to project Bethancourt as a decent to good hitter by using Yadier Molina as a potential comp, while dismissing Gattis as a one tool player using a small sample size. Isn't it possible that Gattis could improve his plate discipline and become a more complete hitter? I'd argue that there's every bit as much chance of that happening as there was of Molina going from a sub .700 OPS guy to an .850 - .900 middle of the order hitter. I know Gattis is a good bit older than Molina was when he was putting up average to below average offensive seasons, but Evan also has a lot fewer miles on him behind the plate. At the time of his breakout season Molina had 1,081 games (major and minor) at C, while to this point Gattis has 166.

Gattis probably won't develop any further physically, but he's still very limited in baseball experience. He has ample opportunity ahead of him to improve the weaker parts of his game.

I'm much more worried about the prospect that Evan will flake out and head for the mountains again if he hits a stretch where things don't go well for a while than I am of him failing to continue to develop his skills over the next few years.

I don't think Bethancourt will ever be the type of hitter that Molina is. Just pointing out you can't simply look at him and say well, he'll never hit at all. I don't know that he's going to be an even good hitter, him being an average hitter would be a good thing. He has a positive that he has decent pop, but lacks the skills to distinguish good pitches to hit vs. not good pitches to hit. And I have questions to whether that is a skill that can be taught. My guess is that he gears up for fastballs and occasionally runs into one from some scummer minor leauger that doesn't know how to throw a breaking ball for a strike, but I haven't seen enough to know that for a fact. Still, he has the defensive skills to be an everyday major league catcher.

Gattis could improve on areas of hitting. Does he improve on plate discipline? What percentage of players make significant improvements in that area or is it a skill that someone is born with? His power is top notch, will he improve on pitch selection? Will he make more consistent contact?

Molina is an interesting case that has alot of the same peripherals as when he was a no hit/all defensive catcher. What he improved on was power and hitting for average. I think those are skills that can be taught.

[gilesfan]

The area where there might be some improvement would be in the walk rate.


How often do guys do that to a significant degree? I ask without knowing.

[nsacpi]

How often do guys do that to a significant degree? I ask without knowing.

It is known as an old player's skill.

[gilesfan]

It is known as an old player's skill.

Just off the top of my head, some hackers that played up into mid to late 30s. Improvement?

Dawson- No
Gary Carter- No
Robin Yount- No
Carlton Fisk- No


Do you know of specific examples? I've certainly heard people say older players walk more and have more power....is it actually true?

[GovClintonTyree]

Just off the top of my head, some hackers that played up into mid to late 30s. Improvement?

Dawson- No
Gary Carter- No
Robin Yount- No
Carlton Fisk- No


Do you know of specific examples? I've certainly heard people say older players walk more and have more power....is it actually true?

Gattis walked far more in the minors, and likely will again.

Also, I'd just point out that your exemplars are all in the Hall of Fame.

[nsacpi]

Just off the top of my head, some hackers that played up into mid to late 30s. Improvement?

Dawson- No
Gary Carter- No
Robin Yount- No
Carlton Fisk- No


Do you know of specific examples? I've certainly heard people say older players walk more and have more power....is it actually true?

Of course there are exceptions. I haven't actually seen a good study of the issue. My guess is that for the average player the walk rate increases for a while then comes down. I would also guess that it peaks a bit later than other components of hitting skill. Freddie Freeman is an example of a young player who has improved his walk rate each year, but Fredito is exceptional in the way he's been improving by almost every measure.

In the case of Gattis, there are times when he shows a good approach and times when he seems to swing at everything. I think he just needs to mature in terms of going up there with a good plan for each at bat. I do get the impression he is more capable of learning and making adjustments that someone like Jeff Francoeur, who seemed to have a deadly combination of stubbornness and stupidity.

[GovClintonTyree]

Gattis hit .240 last year with a terrible OBP. Im not sure how we gather he's an excellent hitter (when used in a context that is seperate from power) You are claiming that he's an excellent hitter PLUS has light tower power? Its more like he has great power, which somewhat offsets his lack of skills at hitting for a high average or getting on base.

An excellent hitter.

Because I watch, coach, and play the game, and because I know what constitutes an excellent hitter and see it in Gattis, and because I wouldn't deign to look at a years stats at a new level and cherry-pick those into his ceiling and to buttress my short-sighted and overly-sabre based argument, I am able to see the player for what he is - an excellent hitter with light tower power. The stats will follow.

He's just coming into his own. Write it down. An excellent hitter.

[gilesfan]

Gattis walked far more in the minors, and likely will again.

Also, I'd just point out that your exemplars are all in the Hall of Fame.

Gattis walked in 6.9% of his PAs in the minors.

Just for comparisons sake:

Hackoeur= 5.5%
Heyward= 10.6%
Freeman= 7.6%
Simmons= 6.2%

[gilesfan]

An excellent hitter.

Because I watch, coach, and play the game, and because I know what constitutes an excellent hitter and see it in Gattis, and because I wouldn't deign to look at a years stats at a new level and cherry-pick those into his ceiling and to buttress my short-sighted and overly-sabre based argument, I am able to see the player for what he is - an excellent hitter with light tower power. The stats will follow.

He's just coming into his own. Write it down. An excellent hitter.


I gotcha. I guess no one else on here watch, coach, or play/played baseball.

What is your definition of an excellent hitter, by the way?

[thethe]

Gattis walked in 6.9% of his PAs in the minors.

Just for comparisons sake:

Hackoeur= 5.5%
Heyward= 10.6%
Freeman= 7.6%
Simmons= 6.2%

If Gattis had a 7% walk rate in the majors with his power we should all be doing jumping jacks.

[gilesfan]

If Gattis had a 7% walk rate in the majors with his power we should all be doing jumping jacks.

Depending on if his aveage is .240, .260, or .300 and how well he improves his defense.

If he's hitting .240 with a 7% walk rate, thats not an "excellent hitter." If he's hitting .280, it is.

[thethe]

Depending on if his aveage is .240, .260, or .300 and how well he improves his defense.

If he's hitting .240 with a 7% walk rate, thats not an "excellent hitter." If he's hitting .280, it is.

If he is hitting 35 homers I'll love that production even if he hits 240. Not every guy in the lineup needs to have a high OBP. Sure, it would be great but if the guys before him are getting on and he is putting hte ball in the stands then I'm good. I feel like Gattis will be a 260-280 hitter though. I was really impressed with his approach against Lee but I personally feel that is a good matchup for him.

[nsacpi]

Gattis' career lines (in 391 ML at bats) provide a pretty good summary of what kind of hitter he is:

5.0% walk rate, 21.2% strikeout rate, .251 ISO, .268 BABIP, .256 BA, .298 OBP, .506 slugging, .344 wOBA

During this period, I don't think he's been especially lucky or unlucky. Both the pitchers and he have made adjustments in their approaches. This is what Evan Gattis is. He's had hot streaks and slumps in this period. He'll have more hot streaks and slumps. But I think these numbers fairly summarize him as a hitter. I do think the number that is most likely to change in a particular direction is the walk rate.

[Knucksie]

Surprised that nobody's suggested maintaining a season long, stickied Gattis vs. McCann thread.

[nsacpi]

Surprised that nobody's suggested maintaining a season long, stickied Gattis vs. McCann thread.

Most of us like McCann and don't want to hold him up to an unfair standard.

[GovClintonTyree]

I gotcha. I guess no one else on here watch, coach, or play/played baseball.

What is your definition of an excellent hitter, by the way?

You. Not everyone. I'm sure everyone has played or coached. I'm sure you have. I'm suggesting that your analysis is solely saber-driven, because you couldn't watch the guy with a semi-trained eye and not be impressed.

What do I like? That his bat stays on the right plane through the hitting zone forever, that he's spread out so there's virtually no change in eye level while the pitch is on it's way, that he seems to think along with the pitcher and make good adjustments in the at bat or the game, that he has a short, violent swing that's repeatable, that he'll use all fields, particularly center when he's thinking base hit (as he did Wed night), and that he's a big, ugly dude who scares the whiz out of pitchers...

He's a little overly aggressive since being called up to the Show, chasing pitches he shouldn't. He's very smart, so I think he'll get over that. But he'll never walk 10% of the time. He gets up to 6-7 that'll be enough to force them to throw him some strikes.

I think longevity/durability and value questions are fair. Your blanket criticisms and dismissal of his talent are not.

[GovClintonTyree]

Most of us like McCann and don't want to hold him up to an unfair standard.

Nice.

[gilesfan]

You. Not everyone. I'm sure everyone has played or coached. I'm sure you have. I'm suggesting that your analysis is solely saber-driven, because you couldn't watch the guy with a semi-trained eye and not be impressed.

What do I like? That his bat stays on the right plane through the hitting zone forever, that he's spread out so there's virtually no change in eye level while the pitch is on it's way, that he seems to think along with the pitcher and make good adjustments in the at bat or the game, that he has a short, violent swing that's repeatable, that he'll use all fields, particularly center when he's thinking base hit (as he did Wed night), and that he's a big, ugly dude who scares the whiz out of pitchers...

He's a little overly aggressive since being called up to the Show, chasing pitches he shouldn't. He's very smart, so I think he'll get over that. But he'll never walk 10% of the time. He gets up to 6-7 that'll be enough to force them to throw him some strikes.

I think longevity/durability and value questions are fair. Your blanket criticisms and dismissal of his talent are not.


What is your definition of an excellent hitter?

My analysis isn't soley saber driven. The guy has light tower power, but swings at everything, and struggles to hit anything off speed.

I don't think he's a terrible hitter by any means, but a hot streak in a bandbox doesn't make me change my opinion of him. most of you guys were either silent about him or talking about his struggles, 4 days later he's getting MVP votes.

[nsacpi]

Small sample, but so far Gattis is leading major league catchers in WAR, wOBA (by a large margin), and school floors mopped.

[UNCBlue012]

I'd still like to see:
Heyward RF
Simmons SS
Freeman 1B
JUP LF
CJoh 3B
Gattis C
Uggla 2B
BJ CF