The Discussion That Should Be Going On

[57Brave]

This article this morning. Do you have an opinion???
http://www.salon.com/2013/07/15/our_real_problem_is_white_rage/
??????

Sanford police coyly “tolerated” the actual killing of an unarmed black child, but yet refuse to “tolerate” any anger expressed for the acquittal of his murderer.

It bears reminding that it was Sanford’s police who first allowed Zimmerman to walk away uncharged — his gun in tote. The story of self-defense seemed logical to them given the brown body laying on the ground. It was their decision not to investigate the case as a crime that led to public outcry, rallies and marches. It is only because of their total failure to do their jobs that the world now knows the name and face of Trayvon Martin.

And when the criminal justice system — in the hands, as it was, of two white defense attorneys, two white prosecutors and a mostly-white jury presided over by a white judge — choose to disregard the life of an innocent black teenager, it can hardly be a surprising result. Trayvon Martin was profiled not just by Zimmerman on the night he was killed, but by the very people charged with ajudicating justice on behalf of his senseless death
(this paragraph brings to mind The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol - )

[gilesfan]

Yes, the police believed it was self defense, which was proven in the trial. That is one of the worst articles i've ever read. The police should allow people to go crazy because why?

[sturg33]

In other news, a white person killed a brown person yesterday. But nobody cared because it was in Afghanistan

[57Brave]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/14/2298441/six-million-trayvons-how-the-george-zimmerman-mindset-has-rigged-the-justice-system-against-young-black-men/



The statistics back up Alexander’s point. Minorities, especially the six million young black men in America, get much worse outcomes from the criminal justice system for the same conduct:

1. A black male born in 2001 has a 32% chance of spending some portion of his life in prison. A white male born the same year has just a 6% chance. [Sentencing Project]

2. In major American cities, as many as 80% of young African-American men have criminal records. [Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow]

3. African-Americans who use drugs are more than four times as likely to be incarcerated than whites who use drugs. African Americans constitute 14% of the population and 14% of monthly drug users. But African-Americans respresent 34% of those arrested for a drug offense and 53% of those sentenced to prison for a drug offense. [American Bar Association]

4. In seven states, African Americans constitute 80% or more of all drug offenders sent to prison. [Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow]

5. Black students are three and a half times as likely to be suspended or expelled than their white peers. One in five black boys recieve an out-of-school suspension. Education Secretary Arne Duncan who commissioned the study, said “The undeniable truth is that the everyday education experience for too many students of color violates the principle of equity at the heart of the American promise.” [New York Times]

6. Black youth who are referred to juvenile court are much more likely to be detained, referred to adult court or end up in adult prison than their white counterparts. Blacks represented 28% of juvenile arrests, 30% of referrals to juvenile court, 37% of the detained population, 35% of youth judicially waived to criminal court and 58% of youth admitted to state adult prison. [National Council on Crime And Deliquency]

7. The United States imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the height of apartheid. [Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow]

[sturg33]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/14/2298441/six-million-trayvons-how-the-george-zimmerman-mindset-has-rigged-the-justice-system-against-young-black-men/



The statistics back up Alexander’s point. Minorities, especially the six million young black men in America, get much worse outcomes from the criminal justice system for the same conduct:

1. A black male born in 2001 has a 32% chance of spending some portion of his life in prison. A white male born the same year has just a 6% chance. [Sentencing Project]

2. In major American cities, as many as 80% of young African-American men have criminal records. [Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow]

3. African-Americans who use drugs are more than four times as likely to be incarcerated than whites who use drugs. African Americans constitute 14% of the population and 14% of monthly drug users. But African-Americans respresent 34% of those arrested for a drug offense and 53% of those sentenced to prison for a drug offense. [American Bar Association]

4. In seven states, African Americans constitute 80% or more of all drug offenders sent to prison. [Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow]

5. Black students are three and a half times as likely to be suspended or expelled than their white peers. One in five black boys recieve an out-of-school suspension. Education Secretary Arne Duncan who commissioned the study, said “The undeniable truth is that the everyday education experience for too many students of color violates the principle of equity at the heart of the American promise.” [New York Times]

6. Black youth who are referred to juvenile court are much more likely to be detained, referred to adult court or end up in adult prison than their white counterparts. Blacks represented 28% of juvenile arrests, 30% of referrals to juvenile court, 37% of the detained population, 35% of youth judicially waived to criminal court and 58% of youth admitted to state adult prison. [National Council on Crime And Deliquency]

7. The United States imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the height of apartheid. [Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow]

1. Worthless comparrison. You are not comparing like-for like. For example, a black male with 2 married parents is actually LESS likely to to spend time in prison than a white male with 2 married parents. The difference is, there are far less black males who fall into that category.

2. Again, this is almost 100% related to education and upbringing

3. This is truth. Which is why black people are so silly to think the government has their best interests at heart. The war on drugs is basically a war on black people.

4. Means nothing to me without context

5. I would want to see the comparrisons of up-bringing. We need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples for it to be an accurate representation. See point 1

6. I have read this point 3 times now and am not understanding it.

7. Not sure what this one means or why it is relevant.


I'm not arguing the justice system doesn't discriminate against blacks. I think the drug incarcerations prove that. But I get annoyed with these dumb statistics that take everything from the top level. It simply does not account for the fact that black kids are less educated and are far more likely to only have one parent growing up. When you compare like-fo-like, the numbers show a completely different story.

[AerchAngel]

1. Worthless comparrison. You are not comparing like-for like. For example, a black male with 2 married parents is actually LESS likely to to spend time in prison than a white male with 2 married parents. The difference is, there are far less black males who fall into that category.

2. Again, this is almost 100% related to education and upbringing



I'm not arguing the justice system doesn't discriminate against blacks. I think the drug incarcerations prove that. But I get annoyed with these dumb statistics that take everything from the top level. It simply does not account for the fact that black kids are less educated and are far more likely to only have one parent growing up. When you compare like-fo-like, the numbers show a completely different story.

Sturg nails it. I wish I had his back up on the other Scout board I visit. There is black on black crime going between I and another. He blames whitey for everything and I mean EVERYTHING. Two parents and stay in school can cure our problems but some don't want to hear that. They want things giving to them on spoon, aka the guvment. As I said before, my parents been married almost 50 years and are Democrats, brought up four kids right and they respect our wishes only asking us to stay out of trouble and don't do drugs. This guy says whitey force drugs on us, force us out of school by catering to whites. I told him to go back to Africa if it's that bad here and educate them using rappers and athletes who can't read as models.

[57Brave]

Obviously neither of you read the article and / or the attachments . I was really hoping for something more substantive than a he said - she said back and forth. With predetermined sides. Of course there are structural family problems in Black America - everyone knows and recognizes that. That is not a profound thought OF course if they just quit taking food stamps. But, how do we get from here to there? History tells up it is hard to pull one up by the boot straps when the puller doesn't even have boots! -- instead of throwing your hands up -- what do you suggest?
This is a complicated problem that has been a bone of contention in our culture since the 1600's and will require complicated thought rather than petty bumper sticker or Fox news based opinions. I trust there are enough educated people and enough people invested in our culture to form intelligent opinions and to discuss . I am willing to stand aside and listen but fer chries sake say something that means something



Here: from the bottom of the article posted above. -
In 2004, the Amerian Bar Association created a commission which produced recommendation to address “racial and ethnic bias in the criminal justice system.” Thus far, their recommendations have been largely ignored in much of the country.

[AerchAngel]

Obviously neither of you read the article and / or the attachments . I was really hoping for something more substantive than a he said - she said back and forth. With predetermined sides. Of course there are structural family problems in Black America - everyone knows and recognizes that. That is not a profound thought OF course if they just quit taking food stamps. But, how do we get from here to there? History tells up it is hard to pull one up by the boot straps when the puller doesn't even have boots! -- instead of throwing your hands up -- what do you suggest?
This is a complicated problem that has been a bone of contention in our culture since the 1600's and will require complicated thought rather than petty bumper sticker or Fox news based opinions. I trust there are enough educated people and enough people invested in our culture to form intelligent opinions and to discuss . I am willing to stand aside and listen but fer chries sake say something that means something



Here: from the bottom of the article posted above. -
In 2004, the Amerian Bar Association created a commission which produced recommendation to address “racial and ethnic bias in the criminal justice system.” Thus far, their recommendations have been largely ignored in much of the country.


Actually I like this post and you are right. How do we fix the problem? Sturg is correct on few things about war on drugs. My cousin just out of prison for drugs (MJ) and ruined his life because he wanted some bling. We need to steer our culture away from glorification of gangsta types, rappers and athletes who can't read as being models. I would start there. The other I am not going to mention because both sides would crucify me and only one other person agree with my assessment. Having two parents goes a long way but that problem would be the hardest to fix that is for sure.

[57Brave]

Please take some time and read Justice Kennedy's Report.

This is an institutional problem that is part of our (American - all color) cultural DNA. Like I said since the 1600's
AA you might find page 53 interesting and may have in fact been that person once.

[sturg33]

I think the first solution to pulling the black race up to higher standards is to eliminate welfare and federal interferance in the education system.

Welfare is simply paying for failure, and until you stop doing so, it will continue to be an issue.

I think Thomas Sowell describes it pretty good in the short clip... Talk about an educated black man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI

[57Brave]

Read Justice Kennedy's Commission report .

[AerchAngel]

Please take some time and read Justice Kennedy's Report.

This is an institutional problem that is part of our (American - all color) cultural DNA. Like I said since the 1600's
AA you might find page 53 interesting and may have in fact been that person once.

Good job Steak Sauce and you are correct. DWB. I posted about this a few times. When I got pulled over, I'm always polite, dress nicely (Carlton Banks if you will) and have no ***elry, tats or a grill because I don't trust the po po. I do not have to worry about it here since they know me pretty well through playing hoops with them and one of them is a neighbor of mine.

Interesting read though, I will give you dad and believe a lot of what is says.

[57Brave]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/07/zimmerman_trial_juror_b37_why_did_prosecutors_let_ her_on_the_trayvon_martin.html

from the above article:

Less than two days after a Florida jury found George Zimmerman not guilty in the death of Trayvon Martin, juror B37, one of the six members of the anonymous panel, signed with a literary agent to shop her book about the trial.

[Tapate50]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/07/zimmerman_trial_juror_b37_why_did_prosecutors_let_ her_on_the_trayvon_martin.html

from the above article:

Less than two days after a Florida jury found George Zimmerman not guilty in the death of Trayvon Martin, juror B37, one of the six members of the anonymous panel, signed with a literary agent to shop her book about the trial.

In other news, the sky is blue. More at 6.

[57Brave]

“Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound purpose larger than the self kind of understanding.”
— Bill Bullard

[Tapate50]

“Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound purpose larger than the self kind of understanding.”
— Bill Bullard

Accountability. A noble thought.

[acesfull86]

Obviously neither of you read the article and / or the attachments . I was really hoping for something more substantive than a he said - she said back and forth. [/I]


I bet...

[weso1]

Black female imprisonment rate has dropped dramatically. So if you can figure out why that is and you can figure out a way to apply it to the male population then you may have your answer.

[57Brave]

Justifiable Homicide plea:
White Shooter-Black Victim --- 30% success
Black Shooter -White Victim --- 3% success

[57Brave]

6% of black teens are in gangs
70% of jailed pedophiles are white

[57Brave]

Black female imprisonment rate has dropped dramatically. So if you can figure out why that is and you can figure out a way to apply it to the male population then you may have your answer.

Why do you think or is there a link explaining?

[weso1]

I think it's mainly due to the fact that drug laws have been eased in a lot of states.

[Tapate50]

Justifiable Homicide plea:
White Shooter-Black Victim --- 30% success
Black Shooter -White Victim --- 3% success

Boy, stats can be fun. Jesse and Al are proud of ya.

[57Brave]

I think it's mainly due to the fact that drug laws have been eased in a lot of states.

Looking at felony arrests in our county they are predominately drug arrests. A random paper hanger or DUI but a wild guess would asy 70% drug arrests. And for you tapate, all colors

[jpx7]

Boy, stats can be fun. Jesse and Al are proud of ya.

Is there button to unthank a post for being entirely unhelpful?

[BedellBrave]

Is there button to unthank a post for being entirely unhelpful?

Let's all hope not.

[Tapate50]

Is there button to unthank a post for being entirely unhelpful? there is here. It's called the post button. You seem to have found it as well. I've never been around someone baiting as much as 57. Arguing with him is unhelpful to everyone. Okie had it right

[Tapate50]

Looking at felony arrests in our county they are predominately drug arrests. A random paper hanger or DUI but a wild guess would asy 70% drug arrests. And for you tapate, all colors

I'd say that's because they are so prominent. Peer pressure is a real *****

[Yogi44]

One of the biggest racial problems we have in this country is how each group "tolerates" certain things that should be considered unacceptable.

Example would be the recent Paula Deen blowup. Walmart, Kmart, etc all stopped carrying her cookware because of the information that came out in a deposition. Even though she was honest and said she used the offensive word years ago, she was dropped like a hot 'tater!

But those same stores carry black (and white) rappers & hip-hop that use the same word (and frankly a lot worse regarding females) to make money, yet they are not called out because it's in the name of "free speech" and "freedom of expression".

So how can we become a nation of people that sees no color, when we are constantly being reminded that there is a huge double standard. In order to change, things like black on black crime and black on white crime has got to be met with the same outrage as a Hispanic trying to act like Barney Fife.

I truly believe Zimmerman acted in self defense, the real crime was the confrontation itself. Stay in your car and nothing would have happened.

[Tapate50]

One of the biggest racial problems we have in this country is how each group "tolerates" certain things that should be considered unacceptable.

Example would be the recent Paula Deen blowup. Walmart, Kmart, etc all stopped carrying her cookware because of the information that came out in a deposition. Even though she was honest and said she used the offensive word years ago, she was dropped like a hot 'tater!

But those same stores carry black (and white) rappers & hip-hop that use the same word (and frankly a lot worse regarding females) to make money, yet they are not called out because it's in the name of "free speech" and "freedom of expression".

So how can we become a nation of people that sees no color, when we are constantly being reminded that there is a huge double standard. In order to change, things like black on black crime and black on white crime has got to be met with the same outrage as a Hispanic trying to act like Barney Fife.

I truly believe Zimmerman acted in self defense, the real crime was the confrontation itself. Stay in your car and nothing would have happened.

Pretty strong post.

[Tapate50]

AHEM***


Black America's Real Problem Isn't White Racism



Pat Buchanan7 hours agoSocietyBarack ObamaShooting of Trayvon MartinNew York






In the aftermath of the acquittal of George Zimmerman, Eric Holder, Al Sharpton and Ben Jealous of the NAACP are calling on the black community to rise up in national protest.

Yet they know — and Barack Obama, whose silence speaks volumes, knows — nothing is going to happen.

"Stand-Your-Ground" laws in Florida and other states are not going to be repealed. George Zimmerman is not going to be prosecuted for a federal "hate crime" in the death of Trayvon Martin.

The result of all this ginned-up rage that has produced vandalism and violence is simply going to be an ever-deepening racial divide.

Consider the matter of crime and fear of crime.

From listening to cable channels and hearing Holder, Sharpton, Jealous and others, one would think the great threat to black children today emanates from white vigilantes and white cops.

Hence, every black father must have a "conversation" with his son, warning him not to resist or run if pulled over or hassled by a cop.

Make the wrong move, son, and you may be dead is the implication.

But is this the reality in Black America?

When Holder delivered his 2009 "nation-of-cowards" speech blaming racism for racial separation, Manhattan Institute's Heather Mac Donald suggested that our attorney general study his crime statistics.

In New York from January to June 2008, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, though blacks were only 24 percent of the population. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of all gun assailants. Forty-nine of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.

New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirms Mac Donald's facts. Blacks and Hispanics commit 96 percent of all crimes in the city, he says, but only 85 percent of the stop-and-frisks are of blacks and Hispanics.

And these may involve the kind of pat-downs all of us have had at the airport.

Is stop-and-frisk the work of racist cops in New York, where the crime rate has been driven down to levels unseen in decades?

According to Kelly, a majority of his police force, which he has been able to cut from 41,000 officers to 35,000, is now made up of minorities.

But blacks are also, per capita, the principal victims of crime. Would black fathers prefer their sons to grow up in Chicago, rather than low-crime New York City, with its stop-and-frisk policy?

Fernando Mateo, head of the New York taxicab union, urges his drivers to profile blacks and Hispanics for their own safety: "The God's honest truth is that 99 percent of the people that are robbing, stealing, killing these drivers are blacks and Hispanics."

Mateo is what The New York Times would describe as "a black Hispanic" Yet he may be closer to the 'hood than Holder, who says he was stopped by police when running to a movie — in Georgetown.

Which raises a relevant question. Georgetown is an elitist enclave of a national capital that has been ruled by black mayors for half a century. It's never had a white mayor.

Is Holder saying we've got racist cops in the district where Obama carried 86 percent of the white vote and 97 percent of the black vote? And his son should fear the white cops in Washington, D.C.?

What about interracial crime, white-on-black attacks and the reverse?

After researching the FBI numbers for "Suicide of a Superpower," this writer concluded: "An analysis of 'single offender victimization figures' from the FBI for 2007 finds blacks committed 433,934 crimes against whites, eight times the 55,685 whites committed against blacks. Interracial rape is almost exclusively black on white — with 14,000 assaults on white women by African Americans in 2007. Not one case of a white sexual assault on a black female was found in the FBI study."

Though blacks are outnumbered 5-to-1 in the population by whites, they commit eight times as many crimes against whites as the reverse. By those 2007 numbers, a black male was 40 times as likely to assault a white person as the reverse.

If interracial crime is the ugliest manifestation of racism, what does this tell us about where racism really resides — in America?

And if the FBI stats for 2007 represent an average year since the Tawana Brawley rape-hoax of 1987, over one-third of a million white women have been sexually assaulted by black males since 1987 — with no visible protest from the civil rights leadership.

Today, 73 percent of all black kids are born out of wedlock. Growing up, these kids drop out, use drugs, are unemployed, commit crimes and are incarcerated at many times the rate of Asians and whites — or Hispanics, who are taking the jobs that used to go to young black Americans.

Are white vigilantes or white cops really Black America's problem?

Obama seems not to think so. The Rev. Sharpton notwithstanding, he is touting Ray Kelly as a possible chief of homeland security.

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of "Suicide of a Superpower: Will America Survive to 2025?" To find out more about Patrick Buchanan and read features by other Creators writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators webpage at www.creators.com.

COPYRIGHT 2013 CREATORS.COM
http://news.yahoo.com/black-americas-real-problem-isnt-white-racism-070000529.html

[Tapate50]

I guess real FBI statistics and facts get too confusing compared to unqualified numbers and percentages out of context. Oh well

[yeezus]

Looking at felony arrests in our county they are predominately drug arrests. A random paper hanger or DUI but a wild guess would asy 70% drug arrests. And for you tapate, all colors

How many people are in jail for marijuana that shouldn't be?
Our jails are packed with non-violent drug offenders.

[57Brave]

A side issue is privatized prisons. Or jail for profit.

It is today a major issue in Arizona where big dollar donors are prison investors and them propping up legislators that enact more and more non violent prison term laws. I posted about ALEC on the other board a year of so ago but I think only a few recognized the trojan horses.

Sorry for getting off topic but I see all these issues interconnected to the grand goal of repealing all regulation on business and stifling labor wages. Even Trayvon Martin and race relations. It is an historical fact, people of color are a cheap source of labor. The quality of their lives be damned

[57Brave]

I guess real FBI statistics and facts get too confusing compared to unqualified numbers and percentages out of context. Oh well

All these numbers are confusing without context. I think the numbers above say the same thing I was yesterday, it sucks to be a person of color.
A stat most telling to me is , outside of the racial profiling aspect, only 6% of black youth are gang members. That leaves a mere 94% as striving young americans - yet for whatever reasons young black men (b0ys) are immediatly assumed to be gang kids.

Tell me the difference between an inter city kid wearing his pants around his knees and white kid wearing a confederate flag? Ever thought that black Americans assume all white kids have confederate flags on their trucks? I bet the state legislature in your state has bills pending to address pants at the knees and nothing about confederate patches. Am I right or wrong?

That is what Al Sharpton is talking about

[Tapate50]

I'd say the major difference is the kids with saggy pants are accepted by their society where as a confederate patch really isn't accepted by their peers or family groups. I live in the heart of the area you are talking about, and the pants are almost every black teen and the patch might be out in the stix.

Those stats need no context. What it's saying is that in NYC the police is made up if mostly blacks and Hispanics and yet over 80% of the total gun related offenses were a product of blacks or Hispanics .

It's bad to be a man of color? Please. Everyone is responsible for their own path. That's a cop out. It is about accountability. Stop blaming everyone else and right your own ship. No one is gonna right it for you.

Those numbers should shock you as much as they do me. If its a good community model it should embarrassing people as well and do something about it. It starts from the bottom , not the top.

[Tapate50]

All these numbers are confusing without context. I think the numbers above say the same thing I was yesterday, it sucks to be a person of color.
A stat most telling to me is , outside of the racial profiling aspect, only 6% of black youth are gang members. That leaves a mere 94% as striving young americans - yet for whatever reasons young black men (b0ys) are immediatly assumed to be gang kids.

Tell me the difference between an inter city kid wearing his pants around his knees and white kid wearing a confederate flag? Ever thought that black Americans assume all white kids have confederate flags on their trucks? I bet the state legislature in your state has bills pending to address pants at the knees and nothing about confederate patches. Am I right or wrong?

That is what Al Sharpton is talking about

Racial profiling by people of color? their own people? That's a new one. If they are I have to wonder if experience gives them some insight. Those numbers are in context. Hell you post random stats like 70% of uni bombers are white with ZERO context and expect it to fly. This article sites sources and context. Denial. Be accountable. That's all. Own it, correct it.

Al is a racist. Everyone knows that. Don't cite him and try to legitimize a point because he lends zero credibility to every arguement.

[57Brave]

I'm trying to agree with you while pointing out there are two sides to every coin.

Patrick Buchanan makes good points but lets be clear, He is the polar opposite of Sharpton in both ideology and bombast. They both are extremely bright and both make good points just from opposite sides. Having said that, I think Buchanan a neanderthal. A Catholic neanderthal. A brilliant catholic neanderthal!
I have to laugh at people that claim to straddle the political fence but constantly side with one side. Not saying that is you-- just making a comment

Now to context. Yes sociological numbers have to have a context or else they are empty figures on a page. Perhaps sometimes the numbers are only a starting point of a conversation where we create the context. Know what I mean?

Both the stats I provided and the stats you provided are viable. And, I think are saying the same thing, it sucks to be of color in this country. but like Obama said today, it is getting better. not perfect but, better.

[Tapate50]

Being accountable means not making excuses. The late Erk Russell ( regarded as one of the best motivators of all time) motivated many many people of all colors with two words : Do Right. Pretty simple concept, yet so hard for so many.

It isn't anyone else's fault.

It isn't about coins or stories. Stop deflecting. It's about a deep routed problem in the communities that allow this behavior to continue. It's even lauded in some circles as noble .

[57Brave]

What deep rooted problems? What is the source of those deep rooted problems? Why are lauded in some circles? What circles?

Not deflecting -- not really sure who you are calling to account ??? A culture that goes back generations that can't turn on a dime -- black and white america.

Erk Russell was a football coach and the basis of his motivational skills was who played and who didnt. Playing time in amateur sports in this discussion is really not a measuring stick for, anything except who give s the coach the best chance to win- not to take anything from Russell.

It really is about coins. 1/2 the country can only see their side of the coin and the other half their side. Evidence is the sides taken in this case. Ever wonder why predictable people are following predictable sides in this story? To a tee.

I am dark skinned (not black) and I am not proud to say sometimes as wrong as Zimmerman was. Because I find myself at times making the same assumptions he made when he saw a negro stranger in a hoodie -- we have all done it. On the other side of the coin, Being dark skinned I have also been profiled as a menace based only on the tone of my skin

That is the problem -- to both sides

[AerchAngel]

One of the biggest racial problems we have in this country is how each group "tolerates" certain things that should be considered unacceptable.

Example would be the recent Paula Deen blowup. Walmart, Kmart, etc all stopped carrying her cookware because of the information that came out in a deposition. Even though she was honest and said she used the offensive word years ago, she was dropped like a hot 'tater!

But those same stores carry black (and white) rappers & hip-hop that use the same word (and frankly a lot worse regarding females) to make money, yet they are not called out because it's in the name of "free speech" and "freedom of expression".

So how can we become a nation of people that sees no color, when we are constantly being reminded that there is a huge double standard. In order to change, things like black on black crime and black on white crime has got to be met with the same outrage as a Hispanic trying to act like Barney Fife.

I truly believe Zimmerman acted in self defense, the real crime was the confrontation itself. Stay in your car and nothing would have happened.

That was his only mistake and since he had a gun, he thought he could get out and not worry, but unfortunately the worst scenario happened and now his life is screwed.

[AerchAngel]

Pat Buchanan nails it and this is why I am what I am. The positive blacks that do not go to the race card like Martin, Rice, Watts, West, Powell et al, which are shunned by the black race who in turn loves Jesse Jackass, Al Sharpton and Ben Jealous. They went to school got to their positions through hard work. On the Scout Illinois board I had a fight with a Farrakhan member, he said through riots, protest and fight for reparations I am an uncle tom because I believe in the people above. Until we fix our own house, the racial divide will continue. You have those who want hand outs and you have those who want to work harder than the whites, like me, to prove we are just as smart and contribute just like you are and I have.

Of course I am still pissed I didn't get the job that would set me for life and it was not because I was black because I was not a dick, but I am going to still try again, see my topic in another forum.

[AerchAngel]

All these numbers are confusing without context. I think the numbers above say the same thing I was yesterday, it sucks to be a person of color.
A stat most telling to me is , outside of the racial profiling aspect, only 6% of black youth are gang members. That leaves a mere 94% as striving young americans - yet for whatever reasons young black men (b0ys) are immediatly assumed to be gang kids.

Tell me the difference between an inter city kid wearing his pants around his knees and white kid wearing a confederate flag? Ever thought that black Americans assume all white kids have confederate flags on their trucks? I bet the state legislature in your state has bills pending to address pants at the knees and nothing about confederate patches. Am I right or wrong?

That is what Al Sharpton is talking about

I have become to respect you but this, oh my effing God, FBI wouldn't lie. I seen it in my own family. I seen it with my own eyes. The younger generation is causing us a lot of problems to the point we refuse to protect them. Several are already in jail to the point 18-30 year old group, 19 of them, 13 of them been in jail with 2 are. Take the 30 to 50 group where I belong, only 3. So don't give me that crap it went down and skew the numbers.

[AerchAngel]

I'm trying to agree with you while pointing out there are two sides to every coin.

They both are extremely bright and both make good points just from opposite sides.

You lost my respect. Sharpton is not bright, even my family would say that and they are DIE HARD CORE Democrats. They think he is a charlatan, con artist or hustler that bamboozle people like Arsenio Hall in Coming to America. They believe he and Jesse Jackson are tools to bring money to their campaigns and they REALLY hate that I was right about him.

They can only make money on racial divide, nothing more, nothing less.

[Yogi44]

You lost my respect. Sharpton is not bright, even my family would say that and they are DIE HARD CORE Democrats. They think he is a charlatan, con artist or hustler that bamboozle people like Arsenio Hall in Coming to America. They believe he and Jesse Jackson are tools to bring money to their campaigns and they REALLY hate that I was right about him.

They can only make money on racial divide, nothing more, nothing less.

It has always befuddled the hell out of me, how a group of people can not see that the ONLY time these folks are seen is when it benefits THEM directly. If they really wanted to make a difference they would have long ago tried to run for office (I mean start down at the state level and work their way up) and at least TRY to make meaningful change.

It is sad that we have come to a point in our society when you go to work you have to be careful what you talk about. Anyone who disagreed with the verdict, would label me a racist by me commenting that there WAS reasonable doubt.

I have black friends, respect them and don't label them. But there was only one verdict, regardless of the testimony or evidence presented that would have pleased some of the black population. I still don't get why they do not get upset when a black kills a black? At least to the point of protesting??

One of the reasons I respect AA so much, is that he is willing to look at any situation as human vs. human, not color vs, color. Color never enters the picture.

[AerchAngel]

It has always befuddled the hell out of me, how a group of people can not see that the ONLY time these folks are seen is when it benefits THEM directly. If they really wanted to make a difference they would have long ago tried to run for office (I mean start down at the state level and work their way up) and at least TRY to make meaningful change.

It is sad that we have come to a point in our society when you go to work you have to be careful what you talk about. Anyone who disagreed with the verdict, would label me a racist by me commenting that there WAS reasonable doubt.

I have black friends, respect them and don't label them. But there was only one verdict, regardless of the testimony or evidence presented that would have pleased some of the black population. I still don't get why they do not get upset when a black kills a black? At least to the point of protesting??

One of the reasons I respect AA so much, is that he is willing to look at any situation as human vs. human, not color vs, color. Color never enters the picture.


Thanks, I mean that. I don't see color in my world, seriously.

[Carp]

6% of black teens are in gangs
70% of jailed pedophiles are white

Where are these numbers coming from exactly? This stat does not factor in that Black females outnumber black males in our population by a good bit. And females are far, far less likely to be involved in gangs. If you just look at he number of black teenage males involved in gangs, the number is actually quite high.

Want to guess how many imprisoned black males have some sort of relations to gangs?

[57Brave]

To Carp-- those numbers are not to argue or lay blame but a point of reference for conversation. Try to get past the blame and credit back and forth and see the problems and discuss the possible positive outcomes. We could argue back and forth a percentage point here or there and never really see the forest for the trees. Which to my mind, is the problem. Sure maybe 6% is a low number maybe it is 10% ???? That is still only 1 out of ten . What about the other 9????
Black Americans live a different reality than White Americans. That is a fact -- You and me can't go back and undo the cultural damage caused by slavery and misrepresented profiling only adds.

[57Brave]

Why, Booker wonders, do we have our famous conversations about race only “when things go terribly wrong”?
////////

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-trayvons-death-and-making-things-better/2013/07/21/2b559708-f0a1-11e2-bed3-b9b6fe264871_story.html

[57Brave]

This article published and found today
/////////////////////////////////////////




Armed and ready to stand our ground ...
July 22nd, 2013 | by Bob Gabordi | 0 Comments

Share

We had better learn to talk about these things.

In the last few days, I’ve heard from readers who had positive and negative reactions to my blog on the role of Florida law in Trayvon Martin’s death. One reader, a neighbor in Killearn Estates, and I went back and forth. He seemed angry that I had called the 17-year-old Martin a child.

He told me a story that alarmed me. He said he and his wife were walking in Killearn one morning when a car with two “what you would describe as ‘kids’ pulled into a driveway directly in front of us, blocking the sidewalk. I pushed her off the sidewalk into the shrubbery, placed right hand into jeans pocket prepared to draw my weapon, while continuing walking, keeping eye contact with the pair.”

He said he wasn’t looking for a fight and had no intention of harming anyone, but felt certain that Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law “would have supported any action I was forced to take.”

I recalled my trips to Pakistan when I found myself in situations that were uncomfortable. I had undergone security briefings about how to measure your surroundings and determine the degree of threat, and was told that everything is a potential threat. “Everything is fine,” we were told, “until it’s not.”

It occurred to me that people like this gentleman and his wife are walking around America feeling the same nervousness I had at first in Pakistan. I say at first because I soon learned to be comfortable in my surroundings, and was always treated with kindness and respect.

But here in America, in the same neighborhood that I have walked and run most of my nearly 400 miles this year, a man and woman go on morning walks packing a gun, the man knocking his wife into the bushes and ready to shoot a couple of kids who pulled into a driveway.

The people in the car – apparently overcome by a “twit of logic” decided to leave “immediately,” which my emailer described as “a good choice.”

My son is 18 and lives in our neighborhood. He was 17 at the time Trayvon Martin was shot. He has friends who come to visit. At that time of day, maybe it was a couple of his buddies who made a wrong turn and were turning around.

What if it was two of my ball players looking for my house, lost and needing directions? These guys have gotten lost going first to third, so nothing would surprise me.

People in cars stop me all the time and ask directions. Just the other day, a car pulled directly into my path while I was crossing Tullamore Lane at Killarney Way to ask me directions to the roundabout – which is just keep going straight.

In the case of my emailer, he had calculated the threat, which is a combination of your perception of good and evil multiplied by your fears, factoring in profiles of age, gender and race, among them, as well as – perhaps – tattoos and ring piercings, and knocked his lady into the shrubs and put his hand on a gun.

As we went back in forth, he expressed concerns about robberies in the neighborhood and other factors that had him concerned. These are real things that have to be taken into account.

He might have good reason to walk around scared – which he must be if he has resorted to walking around with a gun in his own neighborhood. In his mind, I’m sure he does.

But I have a teenage son and ball players who might look like a threat to this gentleman and, quite frankly, a scared man walking around Killearn with a gun ready to shoot at any perceived threat worries me more than these kids.

Trayvon Martin’s mother said she believes her son’s age was a bigger factor than his race in profiling him. Maybe, or maybe it was both. We’ll never really know.

The emails eventually ended with both of us grateful for the dialogue, perhaps except the part where he suggested I was a whiny liberal.

I did gain greater understanding of where he was coming from, but if truth be told, I also came away with an even greater concern for the divisions in our community, state and nation.

It is time we begin talking with serious purpose and stop shouting at each other. Maybe public forums are the answer, as long as they are not dominated by people on one side or the other and don’t devolve into pointless name calling and labeling.

I’m not really sure. But it is time we quit being afraid to talk about what scares us, even if it means discussing our taboo topics of race and age and why such things cause others to use them in profiling people as a danger.

You can send comments by clicking on my blogs on Tallahassee.com and Move.Tallahassee.com , e-mailing me at bgabordi@tallahassee.com or sending a private message on Facebook, Tallahassee.com or Twitter @bgabordi. My mailing address is Bob Gabordi, Executive Editor, Tallahassee Democrat, P.O. Box 990, Tallahassee, FL 32302. Call me at 850-599-2177.

[Tapate50]

I see that man refusing to be a victim just like the rest of America. Wanna know why he is on high alert? Because of the news and incidents happening every single day where crimes are committed on innocent bystanders. It happens all the time and you would be a poor husband\father if you let it happen to your family.

From 57
To Carp-- those numbers are not to argue or lay blame but a point of reference for conversation. Try to get past the blame and credit back and forth and see the problems and discuss the possible positive outcomes. We could argue back and forth a percentage point here or there and never really see the forest for the trees. Which to my mind, is the problem. Sure maybe 6% is a low number maybe it is 10% ???? That is still only 1 out of ten . What about the other 9????
Black Americans live a different reality than White Americans. That is a fact -- You and me can't go back and undo the cultural damage caused by slavery and misrepresented profiling only adds.

So slavery causes the family model to disintergrate in the black community? Slavery drives the crime rate in black neighborhoods up? Cmon man. It all boils down to getting your house in order. Accountability. When does the finger stop getting pointed toward someone else?

[Krgrecw]

http://youtu.be/wj4JaCSbhFY

I agree wholeheartedly

[AerchAngel]

I see that man refusing to be a victim just like the rest of America. Wanna know why he is on high alert? Because of the news and incidents happening every single day where crimes are committed on innocent bystanders. It happens all the time and you would be a poor husband\father if you let it happen to your family.

From 57
To Carp-- those numbers are not to argue or lay blame but a point of reference for conversation. Try to get past the blame and credit back and forth and see the problems and discuss the possible positive outcomes. We could argue back and forth a percentage point here or there and never really see the forest for the trees. Which to my mind, is the problem. Sure maybe 6% is a low number maybe it is 10% ???? That is still only 1 out of ten . What about the other 9????
Black Americans live a different reality than White Americans. That is a fact -- You and me can't go back and undo the cultural damage caused by slavery and misrepresented profiling only adds.

So slavery causes the family model to disintergrate in the black community? Slavery drives the crime rate in black neighborhoods up? Cmon man. It all boils down to getting your house in order. Accountability. When does the finger stop getting pointed toward someone else?

That's our problem and most of my race are following the wrong people. Those people, Sharpton and Jackson, needs it to stay this way.

[Julio3000]

So slavery causes the family model to disintergrate in the black community? Slavery drives the crime rate in black neighborhoods up? Cmon man. It all boils down to getting your house in order. Accountability. When does the finger stop getting pointed toward someone else?

Well, slavery followed by a century of institutionalized discrimination, followed by decades of widespread racism and bias. That doesn't obviate personal responsibility, but you can't just wave it away, either.

[Tapate50]

Well, slavery followed by a century of institutionalized discrimination, followed by decades of widespread racism and bias. That doesn't obviate personal responsibility, but you can't just wave it away, either.

No, but what can anyone in the present do except move forward? Most of the people committing crimes and perpetualizing the numbers weren't around in those days. None of the history is going to change, its history. We can't do anything about that now, and its a shame but it is what it is.

In my humble opinion, pull up your bootstraps and lets get to work improving as a whole would be the best way I see.

[57Brave]

Good idea, but how do you go forward? You cant erase the family memories where aunts uncle and grandparents were still hung in the south.
Emmit Till is still an issue.

Like the President said, there has been progress but this case-- shoot this thread -- proves there is still a deep rooted prejudice and a stigma of systemic racism.

So tapate50, how do we go about making white people stop becoming automatically scared when seeing a huge black male on the street ?

Progress --- white woman & black male. At my age I still turn to look. My son (mid 30's) -- doesn't even notice
So, we are getting somewhere

[Tapate50]

Good idea, but how do you go forward? You cant erase the family memories where aunts uncle and grandparents were still hung in the south.
Emmit Till is still an issue.

Like the President said, there has been progress but this case-- shoot this thread -- proves there is still a deep rooted prejudice and a stigma of systemic racism.

So tapate50, how do we go about making white people stop becoming automatically scared when seeing a huge black male on the street ?

Progress --- white woman & black male. At my age I still turn to look. My son (mid 30's) -- doesn't even notice
So, we are getting somewhere

Ill address one at a time.

I live in an area that is predominantly AA. There is a county where cold blooded killings still happened on the side of the road in the name of race 40+ years ago in broad daylight. That area is still one of the poorest areas of the US. No one there has bettered themselves in the past 40 years as a majority since then. Most still live in the same family house with a high crime rate and broken family structure. But like I said, not a whole lot we can do about those times now. Most people we are alluding to in this conversation were too young to remember that. Some still have those memories, but most are gone. Like I said, history is history. It ain't changing.

The BLACK President alluded to some guy eyeballing him as a kid, and to be honest that sounded like a great scripted story to tell. He looked like an activist, not a thug at a young age. If you know a bit about politics, that was a speech written for him and just OK'd by the man. Obama isn't writing a thing these days and I doubt very highly that he had a hand in any of the content of that speech.

I would love for you to point out the racism in this thread. Most racist are the first to cry " racist " first in my experience. Your post does little to change this feeling. Most people can't take the criticism and straight talk about whats going on in the black community, so they slough it off as "that ol biggot white boy" instead of opening their mind to the fact that maybe, just MAYBE it has some sliver of merit.

As for your last point of how do we get joe white to not be scared of bo black? Stop the violence. Stop the thuggery. Stop the crime (that includes B on B as much as it does B on W). Stop making idols of criminals and hailing them as successes just because they made some money in the music business. It all starts with being accountable. There is a intrinsic difference in the black communities and white communities here. If bo black had committed a crime, it would be someone elses fault and not condemned by most of his peers. If Joe white commits a crime, the community of his peers pretty much condemns the act and the person going forward publicly and privately. That is a fundamental disconnect that doesn't keep kids\adults "in line" with a succcessful society.

[Runnin]

You shouldn't be able to cop a plea bargain when it's your 2nd infraction.

[57Brave]

Ill address one at a time.

I live in an area that is predominantly AA. There is a county where cold blooded killings still happened on the side of the road in the name of race 40+ years ago in broad daylight. That area is still one of the poorest areas of the US. No one there has bettered themselves in the past 40 years as a majority since then. Most still live in the same family house with a high crime rate and broken family structure. But like I said, not a whole lot we can do about those times now. Most people we are alluding to in this conversation were too young to remember that. Some still have those memories, but most are gone. Like I said, history is history. It ain't changing.

The BLACK President alluded to some guy eyeballing him as a kid, and to be honest that sounded like a great scripted story to tell. He looked like an activist, not a thug at a young age. If you know a bit about politics, that was a speech written for him and just OK'd by the man. Obama isn't writing a thing these days and I doubt very highly that he had a hand in any of the content of that speech.

I would love for you to point out the racism in this thread. Most racist are the first to cry " racist " first in my experience. Your post does little to change this feeling. Most people can't take the criticism and straight talk about whats going on in the black community, so they slough it off as "that ol biggot white boy" instead of opening their mind to the fact that maybe, just MAYBE it has some sliver of merit.

As for your last point of how do we get joe white to not be scared of bo black? Stop the violence. Stop the thuggery. Stop the crime (that includes B on B as much as it does B on W). Stop making idols of criminals and hailing them as successes just because they made some money in the music business. It all starts with being accountable. There is a intrinsic difference in the black communities and white communities here. If bo black had committed a crime, it would be someone elses fault and not condemned by most of his peers. If Joe white commits a crime, the community of his peers pretty much condemns the act and the person going forward publicly and privately. That is a fundamental disconnect that doesn't keep kids\adults "in line" with a succcessful society.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I think the phrase used was "stigma of systemic racism."
Let's distinguish between racial prejudice / bigotry and racism.

I'd be willing to bet there are millions & millions of black men (old and young) that nod their heads in agreement and relate to what the "Black" President said. Reports are the talk was given without script and after days of talking out his remarks with aides. My guess is Thomas Sowell or Bill Cosby could have given the same talk. Maybe even Clarence Thomas. (or AA?)

I look over rural America and search high and lo for these gangs of black thugs that run our meth mills. Or the inner city gangs that rival the Mexican,Dominican,Cuban, Russian,***ish or Italian mobs of the cities. No, we do not see Andrew Cuomo or Marco Rubio referred to as "other" or a prominent "news" networks demanding their birth certificates

[Tapate50]

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I think the phrase used was "stigma of systemic racism."
Let's distinguish between racial prejudice / bigotry and racism.

I'd be willing to bet there are millions & millions of black men (old and young) that nod their heads in agreement and relate to what the "Black" President said. Reports are the talk was given without script and after days of talking out his remarks with aides. My guess is Thomas Sowell or Bill Cosby could have given the same talk. Maybe even Clarence Thomas. (or AA?)

I look over rural America and search high and lo for these gangs of black thugs that run our meth mills. Or the inner city gangs that rival the Mexican,Dominican,Cuban, Russian,***ish or Italian mobs of the cities. No, we do not see Andrew Cuomo or Marco Rubio referred to as "other" or a prominent "news" networks demanding their birth certificates

It did take Obama a while to speak on the issue, so maybe he had a hand in it. It was just vague enough to come across as scripted. There is no way to know for sure.

No one is demanding birth certificates from those men because they aren't the President. Not realizing the difference is justing being obtuse. Think Jesse and Al wouldn't act the same way? Because they did. Al was crowing about W's military record getting made public for over a year. That card gets played every year in elections. Cmon man, Mitt had to lay his tax returns out for the world to see. Comparing something the extreme right did (and quoting it as the norm) is just as asanine as quoting Jesse and Al. We would go round n round for days of the stupidity. The norm lies somewhere in the middle.

You have been looking high and lo for these black gangs ? You haven't been looking hard at all. Like I said, I live very close to much of this and see it every day. We have as many as 6-8 gangs operating in our small city at one time. Over 50% of those are black with the rest being Latino. Your few lines on this suggest you aren't familiar with any of this on a personal level. I have no idea, and I don't pretend to know you or your situation.

As far as the distinction between racial prejudice \ bigotry and racism, you got me there. I don't care. I want our world fixed, and whatever color decideds to pick it up and take the horse by the reigns is fine by me. All I want is a better place for my children and their children. Right now I can't say that is the case, at least not with a straight face. I see a total abcence of accountability from a lot of groups, and that is what troubles me.

[jpx7]

No one is demanding birth certificates from those men because they aren't the President. Not realizing the difference is just being obtuse.

Not really ...

[Julio3000]

It did take Obama a while to speak on the issue, so maybe he had a hand in it. It was just vague enough to come across as scripted. There is no way to know for sure.

No one is demanding birth certificates from those men because they aren't the President. Not realizing the difference is justing being obtuse. Think Jesse and Al wouldn't act the same way? Because they did. Al was crowing about W's military record getting made public for over a year. That card gets played every year in elections. Cmon man, Mitt had to lay his tax returns out for the world to see. Comparing something the extreme right did (and quoting it as the norm) is just as asanine as quoting Jesse and Al. We would go round n round for days of the stupidity. The norm lies somewhere in the middle.

You have been looking high and lo for these black gangs ? You haven't been looking hard at all. Like I said, I live very close to much of this and see it every day. We have as many as 6-8 gangs operating in our small city at one time. Over 50% of those are black with the rest being Latino. Your few lines on this suggest you aren't familiar with any of this on a personal level. I have no idea, and I don't pretend to know you or your situation.

As far as the distinction between racial prejudice \ bigotry and racism, you got me there. I don't care. I want our world fixed, and whatever color decideds to pick it up and take the horse by the reigns is fine by me. All I want is a better place for my children and their children. Right now I can't say that is the case, at least not with a straight face. I see a total abcence of accountability from a lot of groups, and that is what troubles me.

Um, no, he didn't.

[57Brave]

Why do white-white people always bring up Al and Jesse?

Not sure what either have done to deserve the derision pointed their way -- both are ordained ministers and both put their asses on the line JJ for almost 60 years and AS for over 30. Both have put their name on a a ballot for President of the US and both have probably calmed more racial waters than stirred. Both have made PR errors but under the microscope they live under for that long there will be blemishes. No matter who you are. (Anthony Weiner- Joe Walsh-Sarah Palin)
Still have not seen a criminal complaint against either.

W's military record was brought up because he illegally sent youngmen&women to slaughter after cowardly avoiding war due to privilege. Romney still hasn't shown his tax returns. Not sure how in anyone's mind they can equate Obamas birth certificate with Bush's military record.
That my fellow Braves Fan is called a false equivalency

[Tapate50]

Not really ...

Sure it is. One of the requirements of being the PRESIDENT is being a citizen. Holy mackerel... Really?!

[Tapate50]

Um, no, he didn't.

Excuse me. He did in 2010, submitted a estimate before the deadline in 2011, but did not in 2012.

For their 2011 tax returns, the Romneys paid nearly $2 million in taxes on an income of $13.7 million for an effective tax rate of 14.1%. They gave almost $4 million to charity, but only claimed $2.25 million in deductions in order to maintain his campaign pledge to pay at least 13% of his income in federal taxes.[209][210] The summary prepared by PwC stated the Romney's effective tax rate paid had averaged 20.2% from 1990 to 2009.[211

I got lazy and thats all from wiki.

[Tapate50]

Why do white-white people always bring up Al and Jesse?

Not sure what either have done to deserve the derision pointed their way -- both are ordained ministers and both put their asses on the line JJ for almost 60 years and AS for over 30. Both have put their name on a a ballot for President of the US and both have probably calmed more racial waters than stirred. Both have made PR errors but under the microscope they live under for that long there will be blemishes. No matter who you are. (Anthony Weiner- Joe Walsh-Sarah Palin)
Still have not seen a criminal complaint against either.

W's military record was brought up because he illegally sent youngmen&women to slaughter after cowardly avoiding war due to privilege. Romney still hasn't shown his tax returns. Not sure how in anyone's mind they can equate Obamas birth certificate with Bush's military record.
That my fellow Braves Fan is called a false equivalency

They have. Just like Trump on the other side, the only show up when there is money to be made. As AA(maybe?) said earlier in this thread they are there to keep the divide and bait more antagonism. Thats where their money comes from and where their fortunes lay. If there was no cantankerousness between the whites and blacks, they would not be in the news anymore and poor.

I really cannot take you serious if you are in defense of those two as I wouldn't refer to Trump as a righty idol. And you leave Joe Walsh out of this!

Bush acted. The whole US wanted us to act. I would have acted. EVERYONE would have acted. Lets not get that fact confuse a half truth. Obammer still using drones.

I guess the fact you MUST BE A US CITIZEN to be President get in the way of good consipiricy theory. There were questions about his birth cert because there were questions about where he was born, not because he was black. Seeing race where there was none is kinda racist dude.

[Julio3000]

Tapate, IMO you have to put the birth certificate thing to bed before you've got latitude to talk about taking anyone else seriously.

[Tapate50]

Tapate, IMO you have to put the birth certificate thing to bed before you've got latitude to talk about taking anyone else seriously.

I wasn't calling for it? I don't really care. I guess I don't follow how "i need to put it to bed"? Trump was making a media tour and pimping that show of his talking about it a ton. Is it racially biased to ask for a birth certificate?

[Julio3000]

Maybe I misread the last few posts; thought you were at least legitimizing the concerns.

And, yes, those "concerns" had a race-baiting edge to them—it played up the "otherness" of Obama. He's not "one of us." He's from Africa. His loyalties lie elsewhere. Would a white president or presidential candidate be treated the same way? Maybe a ***ish one. That's about the only analog I can think of.

Tangentially, I'd ask if you differentiate between, say, Sean Hannity (or Rush or Ann Coulter or whoever) and the aforementioned Revs? Those folks and many others like them are raking in six- and seven-figure paychecks by peddling outrage and white grievance.

[Tapate50]

Maybe I misread the last few posts; thought you were at least legitimizing the concerns.

And, yes, those "concerns" had a race-baiting edge to them—it played up the "otherness" of Obama. He's not "one of us." He's from Africa. His loyalties lie elsewhere. Would a white president or presidential candidate be treated the same way? Maybe a ***ish one. That's about the only analog I can think of.

Tangentially, I'd ask if you differentiate between, say, Sean Hannity (or Rush or Ann Coulter or whoever) and the aforementioned Revs? Those folks and many others like them are raking in six- and seven-figure paychecks by peddling outrage and white grievance.

It was idiotic. But you have to be a citizen of the US to become Pres. It is an i and t that should have been dotted and crossed LONG before his second term. But it should have to be provided by everyone that runs. It seems moronic that it isn't really. It should be in your "I want to run for President of the US" application packet.

I see them as entertainers for a dollar, not spokespeople for a racial group or civil rights leaders. They are the John Stewarts and Bill Mahers of my party. That is all. How do you see it?

[Julio3000]

I think they're opportunistic entertainers who've found and capitalized on a virtually inexhaustible gravy train. I'm reassured by your assessment, but I don't know that it's shared by the balance of their audiences.

[50PoundHead]

Good discussion guys.

[Bj1133]

http://youtu.be/wj4JaCSbhFY

I agree wholeheartedly

Just watched it and couldn't agree more with what he said. So many times excuses are thrown out instead of looking in the mirror to see the cause of the problem. 73% of African American children born out of wedlock is just an astonishing stat.

[weso1]

It was a great segment. I thought it was fair and honest. I know a lot of folks dislike O'Reilly, but I thought that was one of his better monologues.

[57Brave]

Did O'Reilly just blame African Americans,The Congeressional Balck Caucus,Obama, Sharpton and Jackson for systemic racism?
if we listen further he will also say ---- she really wants it by wearing short skirts and provocative make up.

I really dont think white-white america want the words accountability and O'Reilly not only in the same sentence - but in the same lifetime. Unless of course that is all they listen to or read

[Tapate50]

Did O'Reilly just blame African Americans,The Congeressional Balck Caucus,Obama, Sharpton and Jackson for systemic racism?
if we listen further he will also say ---- she really wants it by wearing short skirts and provocative make up.

I really dont think white-white america want the words accountability and O'Reilly not only in the same sentence - but in the same lifetime. Unless of course that is all they listen to or read

Just because he has made mistakes (like you referenced earlier in this thread) doesn't make his monologue less true. Unless of course you don't want to listen because you deflect accurate criticisms.

Not one place in this thread have you said in any place that Black America has any part of whats going on right now. Its all deflect, deflect, post a circumstantial article, and ignore what people are saying. Acknowledging you have a problem is the first step in this. Then addressing it, then figuring out a solution. You are doing none of the above just flaming.

And yes, I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY that Sharpton and Jackson contribute to racism in America. I think they are some of the governing forces into keeping the divide in place. They blamed a south Ga towns government for floods that affected more black areas than whites.

Fwiw, because I know context or inflection cannot be communicated via written word as much I am not angry or anything with this discussion. I appreciate hearing other sides, but debating them with others. I am not getting riled up or anything.

[57Brave]

Probably because I dont see it as a Black or White America problem.
Which is the problem - that is the discussion that should be going on. Agreed?

White -white defensive reaction gets us no where - which is what I see O'Reiily ,Hannity,Limbaugh,Malkin Coulter,Rand Paul etc etc etc going on about.
Playing defense - defending the status quo.

Would you view systemic racism as an economic issue?
I do
///////////////
oh yeah, that is a bithc about Hudson huh?
Wonder if we'll ever see him pitch again?

[Tapate50]

Probably because I dont see it as a Black or White America problem.
Which is the problem - that is the discussion that should be going on. Agreed?

White -white defensive reaction gets us no where - which is what I see O'Reiily ,Hannity,Limbaugh,Malkin Coulter,Rand Paul etc etc etc going on about.
Playing defense - defending the status quo.

Would you view systemic racism as an economic issue?
I do
///////////////
oh yeah, that is a bithc about Hudson huh?
Wonder if we'll ever see him pitch again?

I see it as an America problem as well, but we are all citizens of America. At some point self evaluation has to be done to diagnose. What does that diagnosis tell you?

I'll ask you point blank - what do those numbers in the Pat Buchanan article ( taken from the FBI ) referring to crime in Ny tell you ? Maybe this is where our disconnect is.

[57Brave]

Buchanon's numbers tell me poverty creates desperate people. Experience tells me desperate people do desperate things

It also says the same thing the O'Reilly commentary said. Black people are responsible for systemic racism -- bootstraps and all that - if "they" would ...

Never saw a response to question of how you view the source systemic racism.

[Tapate50]

Buchanon's numbers tell me poverty creates desperate people. Experience tells me desperate people do desperate things

It also says the same thing the O'Reilly commentary said. Black people are responsible for systemic racism -- bootstraps and all that - if "they" would ...

Never saw a response to question of how you view the source systemic racism.

Created by past experiences. Enhanced by stereotypes but based in some fact.

This goes back to my original post. Accountability. That's the best way to eliminate it. Get the house in order. Hold your community accountable for its actions

[Tapate50]

Buchanon's numbers tell me poverty creates desperate people. Experience tells me desperate people do desperate things

It also says the same thing the O'Reilly commentary said. Black people are responsible for systemic racism -- bootstraps and all that - if "they" would ...

Never saw a response to question of how you view the source systemic racism.

So all of that is from poverty? Including the rapes?

[weso1]

Did O'Reilly just blame African Americans,The Congeressional Balck Caucus,Obama, Sharpton and Jackson for systemic racism?
if we listen further he will also say ---- she really wants it by wearing short skirts and provocative make up.

I really dont think white-white america want the words accountability and O'Reilly not only in the same sentence - but in the same lifetime. Unless of course that is all they listen to or read

:stupid:

[Krgrecw]

http://youtu.be/Zy_1XTRmUr0


NSFW. But the first few minutes before King left the stage was spot on. If Obama had the balls to say this history would look good upon him down the road

[57Brave]

Created by past experiences. Enhanced by stereotypes but based in some fact.

This goes back to my original post. Accountability. That's the best way to eliminate it. Get the house in order. Hold your community accountable for its actions

Your notions of accountability (solutions to a complictaed problem) are comparable to taking Nyquill for the flu. You really haven't touched the virus but at least you won't cough for a few hours.

[Tapate50]

Your notions of accountability (solutions to a complictaed problem) are comparable to taking Nyquill for the flu. You really haven't touched the virus but at least you won't cough for a few hours.

That is the most untrue statement I have ever read in all of the internets. It starts at the most basic of levels. Without that foundation, nothing can grow. And if it does its unnatural (forced), fragile, and based in shallow selfish goals.

And don't think I didn't notice how you dodged the last post (a direct question).

[57Brave]

well then call for accountability from everyone. Not just the most vulnerable --

I have yet to see anyone on this board call on Ted Nugent for accountability or Sean hannity or Bill O'Reilly or Rush or Sarah. Or the meth dealers in rural America. Or the Oxy addicts that can afford rehab to stay out of jail.
From white-white America there is only one bogey man ////// Al-Jesse.

I hope you dont take this wrong but your calls for accountability ring hollow.

[Tapate50]

well then call for accountability from everyone. Not just the most vulnerable --

I have yet to see anyone on this board call on Ted Nugent for accountability or Sean hannity or Bill O'Reilly or Rush or Sarah. Or the meth dealers in rural America. Or the Oxy addicts that can afford rehab to stay out of jail.
From white-white America there is only one bogey man ////// Al-Jesse.

I hope you dont take this wrong but your calls for accountability ring hollow.

From you? Didn't expect any different answer honestly. You have deflected since post one.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that mindset is part of the problem not the solution.

Ted Nugent? Oh my...

[57Brave]

Yes, your calls for accountability are hollow. Show me the face of the person you want held to account for George Zimmerman assuming TMArtin was a thug because he wore a hoodie. Give a name. One name

Who will you call on for accountability for throwing paint on the Lincoln Memorial?
Let's start with Rand Paul and his Neo-Confereracy views.

Accountability -- we could keep a running log if you like.

or we could discuss economic policies that would help these people get out of the dregs they are born into and live in

[57Brave]

another absent call for accountability. This is from an NRA Board member. Never heard any such a thing from Sharpton or Jackson -- you? Or even, the New Black Panthers.
C'mon Tapate call for some one to be accountable to calm this obnoxious boor
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Ted Nugent, the perpetually provocative hard rock guitarist, said earlier this week that black Americans should be profiled in the same manner that different breeds of dogs are considered dangerous.

Nugent made the comments on entertainer Nick Cannon's podcast. The two riffed on race for several minutes until Nugent compared recent cases of strife in race relations to "storm clouds" and dogs.

"If a Dalmatian has been biting the children in the neighborhood, I think we're going to look for a black-and-white dog," he said.

"I think that typically when you see the -- I don't even remember the term they use -- but the gangs of blacks lately that have been just been going down the downtown streets and breaking windows on cars," Nugent continued. "Over and over again, I watch the news, and here's a rape and here's a burglary and here's a murder in Chicago. Twenty-nine shot, 29 blacks shot by 29 blacks. At some point, you've gotta be afraid of black-and-white dogs if the Dalmatian is doing the biting."

The racially charged comments are nothing new from Nugent, who insists he is "anti-racist" because of his musical tributes to black musicians like Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry. Most recently, he joked that he wouldn't mind shooting residents of Los Angeles' South Central neighborhood with a machine gun from a helicopter.

The Coalition to Stop Gun violence recently started a petition to ask the National Rifle Association to remove Nugent from the organization's board of directors.