Best Baseball Player --- Ever

[57Brave]

Henry Aaron today tommorw and yesterday for me
but,

This conversation came up (again) last night after reading on twitter a distinguished sportswriter proclaiming no HOF players in this years ASG.
We started talking about Miguel Cabrera and should he win back to back Triple Crowns - that has to historically put him in the upper-upper-upper echelon.

And , who since Aaron,Mays Clemente Era fits in the conversation? Mariano Rivera maybe?
What say you?

[thethe]

I just go by what old timers tell me but its either Mays/Mantle(when healthy)/Dimaggio

[TURBO]

I just go by what old timers tell me but its either Mays/Mantle(when healthy)/Dimaggio

Gattis

[57Brave]

hey thethe -- there is no wrong answer -- who of your time?

[BremanFan88]

Whoever loves baseball the most is the correct answer.

[Dalyn]

Of my time? And (my addition) with no links to steroids? Maddux.

Ever? Mantle.

[BRule]

Best player I've ever seen is Bonds, roids or no roids...he was the best.

Ever, Cobb or Ruth.

[Julio3000]

Ruth.

Post-integration: Aaron.

Personally seen: Junior Griffey.

Willie Mays is in the conversation. Ted Williams if he hadn't missed three years of his prime to military service.

No beef with a Bonds pick. I like the Maddux selection, too.

[JCarbo76]

Caveat: I'm talking position players only here.

Ruth is by himself. The next level is Cobb, Williams, Bonds, and Wagner.

The next level would include Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Musial, and Speaker.

Clemente, as great as he was, would not be in my top 30. Cabrera is building a resume, though.

[BRule]

Griffey from 1991 - 2000 is a close 2nd to Bonds, IMO.

[Julio3000]

I know. I just can't quite bring myself to pull the lever for Barry.

[jpx7]

I just can't quite bring myself to pull the lever for Barry.

Maybe you need to bulk up for that? I hear he knows a guy.

[Julio3000]

Maybe you need to bulk up for that? I hear he knows a guy.

Nice.

I saw him at a (non-baseball related) trade show last year. Dude is in great shape. Whatever he's on, I want some.

[NYCBrave]

I'm surprised I haven't heard this name mentioned for players from my generation (early 90's - now), Albert Pujols. I have a hard time considering Bonds, so it has to be Pujols. The guy has played 13 years and has a career batting average over .320 and a career OPS over 1.000! That's just unheard of in this day and age. What's even more impressive, and this was something I always admired about Chipper, is his SO/BB ratio. Dude has 1066 Walks to 831 SO's. Once again, unheard of, and to me the true sign of greatness. All that being said, I never was fond of Pujols, always came off as a total jerk.

[NYCBrave]

Caveat: I'm talking position players only here.

Ruth is by himself. The next level is Cobb, Williams, Bonds, and Wagner.

The next level would include Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Musial, and Speaker.

Clemente, as great as he was, would not be in my top 30. Cabrera is building a resume, though.

Agreed! It has to be Ruth all time. If you compare his numbers to the rest of his era, it's just remarkable, nothing even came close.

[GMAJAH25]

I couldnt prove to you either way how Ruth would perform against players today.

In my personal opinion I couldnt put certain guys such as Ruth at the top.

Barry Bonds is the greatest player of all time.

8 gold gloves...700+ Hrs...500+ SBs..

[BRule]

I'm surprised I haven't heard this name mentioned for players from my generation (early 90's - now), Albert Pujols. I have a hard time considering Bonds, so it has to be Pujols. The guy has played 13 years and has a career batting average over .320 and a career OPS over 1.000! That's just unheard of in this day and age. What's even more impressive, and this was something I always admired about Chipper, is his SO/BB ratio. Dude has 1066 Walks to 831 SO's. Once again, unheard of, and to me the true sign of greatness. All that being said, I never was fond of Pujols, always came off as a total jerk.

The problem with Albert is, he is falling off a cliff at "31" or whatever he is....Bonds was a god for 22 years....22 years!!!!

The lowest OPS he had from 1992 - 2007 was .999....THE LOWEST!!!!!!!!!!! Yes I know, roids......but I don't care....look at his stats from 1992 to 2007, even pre-roids he had stupid numbers plus 30-40 steals a year.

Hell, I could argue that Bonds is the greatest ever....not just the greatest I've ever seen.

[zitothebrave]

My inner inner circle of HOF based on career accomplishments would be

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Cobb (simply for longevity honestly)
4. Wagner
5. Williams

Rounding out the top 10 would be Hammerin Hank, Barry Bonds, Tris Speaker, Stan the Man and Rogers Hornsby. Mantle and Gehrig would be in the mix if they just had a few more healthy seasons.

[NinersSBChamps]

The problem with Albert is, he is falling off a cliff at "31" or whatever he is....Bonds was a god for 22 years....22 years!!!!

The lowest OPS he had from 1992 - 2007 was .999....THE LOWEST!!!!!!!!!!! Yes I know, roids......but I don't care....look at his stats from 1992 to 2007, even pre-roids he had stupid numbers plus 30-40 steals a year.

Hell, I could argue that Bonds is the greatest ever....not just the greatest I've ever seen.

You could say Bonds was juicing his entire career. It was much easier in the 90's too. Guy has no merit in my mind as one of the games best players.

[NYCBrave]

The problem with Albert is, he is falling off a cliff at "31" or whatever he is....Bonds was a god for 22 years....22 years!!!!

The lowest OPS he had from 1992 - 2007 was .999....THE LOWEST!!!!!!!!!!! Yes I know, roids......but I don't care....look at his stats from 1992 to 2007, even pre-roids he had stupid numbers plus 30-40 steals a year.

Hell, I could argue that Bonds is the greatest ever....not just the greatest I've ever seen.

I'm sorry but I refuse to acknowledge those numbers. The history of the human body tells you a players prime is from 27-32 for baseball. If you look at Bonds career stats, he had HOF numbers his whole career, but all of the sudden they went to another level at age 35-40. No justification for that.

Now if you want to compare Pujols first 12 season vs Bonds first 12 seasons, I can go there, and it would be an interesting debate.

[BRule]

You could say Bonds was juicing his entire career. It was much easier in the 90's too. Guy has no merit in my mind as one of the games best players.

You COULD.....but it's pretty well documented that he started after that stupid year Mig Mac and Sosa had and Bonds was an all-time great before that. Also, the problem with the "Bonds is a roider, so he is dead" arguement, is....we don't know who is/was juicing. By most accounts it's damn near 40-50% of the sport

[BRule]

I'm sorry but I refuse to acknowledge those numbers. The history of the human body tells you a players prime is from 27-32 for baseball. If you look at Bonds career stats, he had HOF numbers his whole career, but all of the sudden they went to another level at age 35-40. No justification for that.

Now if you want to compare Pujols first 12 season vs Bonds first 12 seasons, I can go there, and it would be an interesting debate.

Pujols has been linked to roids and lying about his age, so he isn't "in the clear" by any stretch....

[NinersSBChamps]

You COULD.....but it's pretty well documented that he started after that stupid year Mig Mac and Sosa had and Bonds was an all-time great before that. Also, the problem with the "Bonds is a roider, so he is dead" arguement, is....we don't know who is/was juicing. By most accounts it's damn near 40-50% of the sport

Sosa, Palmerio, McGwire, and Bonds are the notable names who ruined baseball for the foreseeable future.

[NinersSBChamps]

Pujols has been linked to roids and lying about his age, so he isn't "in the clear" by any stretch....

Is Albert Pujols even his real name?

[BRule]

Sosa, Palmerio, McGwire, and Bonds are the notable names who ruined baseball for the foreseeable future.

Not sure how baseball is ruined.....players in the Mantle days were popping greenies like Advil, I assume that's okay with you?

[PawPawMaxwell]

Caveat: I'm talking position players only here.

Ruth is by himself. The next level is Cobb, Williams, Bonds, and Wagner.

The next level would include Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Musial, and Speaker.

Clemente, as great as he was, would not be in my top 30. Cabrera is building a resume, though.

I agree with every player on this list. But if you put Bonds in there you have to include Rose. Cant make myself acknowledge those 2 for the obvious reasons.

[BRule]

Is Albert Pujols even his real name?

Fausto Carmona says probably not.

[GMAJAH25]

The players in todays game are much better athletes..

Look what these guys are doing against better competition...

I wish we could let the athletes of today slow pitch softball bomb players like Babe Ruth.

Evolution doesnt exist.

[NYCBrave]

Pujols has been linked to roids and lying about his age, so he isn't "in the clear" by any stretch....

If that's true about Pujols, I wouldn't be surprised at all, and in my mind makes sense. I'll have to find another choice lol. I guess we're definitely not counting Manny Ramirez either then huh? Well then I'm going with Frank Thomas over Ken Griffey, as the best player from my generation who is clean (early 90's to today).

*Edit: Should have said hitter. If we factor in defense, Griffey takes it.

[GMAJAH25]

Not sure how baseball is ruined.....players in the Mantle days were popping greenies like Advil, I assume that's okay with you?


Just wait until they ban the next strand of substances players are using now.

The **** they have now is overall a much better choice anyway

[zitothebrave]

I'm sorry but I refuse to acknowledge those numbers. The history of the human body tells you a players prime is from 27-32 for baseball. If you look at Bonds career stats, he had HOF numbers his whole career, but all of the sudden they went to another level at age 35-40. No justification for that.

Now if you want to compare Pujols first 12 season vs Bonds first 12 seasons, I can go there, and it would be an interesting debate.

Bonds's first 12 seasons .288/.408/.551 374 homers 417 SB 7403 PA 90.2 fWAR Pujols's first 12 seasons .325/.414/.608 475 homers 92 SB 86.7 fWAR in 8103 PA

Bonds didn't quite have the offensive numbers as pujols, but he was an amazing defender and deadly in the basepaths. There is also no evidence that either of them were truly clean in their playing time. Pujols sure has had a sharp dropoff, much sharper than most people his age normally do without the major health issues of say Andruw Jones or the major swing issues of Dale Murphy.

[NinersSBChamps]

Not sure how baseball is ruined.....players in the Mantle days were popping greenies like Advil, I assume that's okay with you?

Anytime someone does well they are automatically linked to steroids and need to prove their innocence. Just look at Chris Davis. Those four idiots among others put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths.

[NYCBrave]

Another reason I'd go with Frank Thomas (aside from the offensive numbers and ignoring defense), he was actually an advocate for drug testing and voluntarily contributed to the Mitchell report.

[BRule]

Anytime someone does well they are automatically linked to steroids and need to prove their innocence. Just look at Chris Davis. Those four idiots among others put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths.

So because dumbass fans/writers/bloggers scream "ROIDS" baseball is ruined? If we had the internet back then, the same crap woud've happened to the players then. To say a sport is "ruined" because of the minority being idiots, just doesn't make sense to me.

[NinersSBChamps]

So because dumbass fans/writers/bloggers scream "ROIDS" baseball is ruined? If we had the internet back then, the same crap woud've happened to the players then. To say a sport is "ruined" because of the minority being idiots, just doesn't make sense to me.

My point is that these players are a direct reason why people have been turned off from the game.

[BRule]

My point is that these players are a direct reason why people have been turned off from the game.

I'm not saying that doesn't apply to SOME people, but it certainly doesn't apply to everyone. I would say the majority of people can realize how great Bonds was, with or without roids and still love the game just as much as they did 20 years ago.

[GMAJAH25]

Anytime someone does well they are automatically linked to steroids and need to prove their innocence. Just look at Chris Davis. Those four idiots among others put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths.

They're idiots because they were better than everybody else...

Brian Anderson is a guy that always comes to mind. Roiding pitcher for AZ who couldnt put up Barry Bonds numbers on the mound regardless of his supplementing activity. But who the hell is Brian Anderson?

[NinersSBChamps]

They're idiots because they were better than everybody else...

Brian Anderson is a guy that always comes to mind. Roiding pitcher for AZ who couldnt put up Barry Bonds numbers on the mound regardless of his supplementing activity. But who the hell is Brian Anderson?

They are idiots because they cheated and got caught.

[GMAJAH25]

They are idiots because they cheated and got caught.

Why were they caught?

Because they were the best in baseball.

Who gives a **** about the other mediocre and sub par players who were doing the same thing....they get to distance themselves from it...and probably blame their poor career numbers because it was so "unfair" they had to compete with those "cheaters"

In reality the balance of baseball is the same...Barry Bonds numbers compared to the ****tiest player in the league are the same....they are just displayed differently. The gap between the 2 is the same...just adjust the numbers accordingly

[57Brave]

I can see roids adding to numbers (stats and longevity) but the fact remains a player still has to put the round bat on the round ball. Look at it this way, Brett Boone took roids, right?
Is he in this conversation -- the roids era though it skewed numbers compared to other eras , in baseball everything will always be relative to it's time. I grew up watching before expansion -- were those players better hitters because overall the pitching was better -- maybe?
Look at Ted Williams 1957 season or Mantles Triple Crown year -- where only the top 160 pitchers were big league pitchers. Now a days there are 360 big league pitchers, specialists and an army of back ups by creative use of the DL

I view roids as a phase and think Bonds should be celebrated for simply putting the bat on the ball better than anyone for a couple decades . Still aint better than Aaron though. A sloppier baserunner and not half the outfielder. Mays was pretty good but Mays had two things in his favor 1) New York 2) He wore a hat too small so it would fly off when he ran giving the appearance of being faster than the wind. A nice ballplayer but no Aaron.

I really think right now there are a number of players that will fit in the conversation at retirement. Mariano, Cabrera, Big Papi , have to include ARod, Ishiro, Buster Posey and maybe Brian McCann. Chipper had Eddie Murry / Mantle numbers /// anyone else hear last weekend that Brandon Phillips had numbers comparable and in some cases better than Joe Morgan. See they are out there -- still blows my head Aramis Rameriz just collected his 2,000 hit! Baseball is a funny game

One more thing - imagine Murph played in NY

[Gary82]

I think the most talented ballplayer was Mantle. As far production, that's a different story.

[57Brave]

Drysdale used to tell this story about Mantle. Early in his career there was a Spring game vs the dodgers and Drysdale felt real good getting Mantle to look bad getting to 2 strike count. Mantle layed down a 2 strike drag bunt and beat it out for a hit. Drysdale said the next time up first pitch was aimed at Mantles ear. Next pitch Mickey laid down another drag bunt and, beat it out too. Story has it they were both laughing so hard ...

[bravesnumberone]

Ruth. Before he was such a feared hitter, he was damn good pitcher too.

Of my lifetime, I'd have to go Griffey. If he had stayed healthy, a lot more people would agree.

[thethe]

What if Ruth had the current advances in exercise and medicine?

[zitothebrave]

What if Ruth had the current advances in exercise and medicine?

He'd also be facing the slider, the splitter, and would be facing black players and hispanic players.

You can argue for or against many factors from era to era. That's why I use WAR to compare them cause more or less WAR compares a player to his contemporaries.

[thethe]

He'd also be facing the slider, the splitter, and would be facing black players and hispanic players.

You can argue for or against many factors from era to era. That's why I use WAR to compare them cause more or less WAR compares a player to his contemporaries.

You can spit out any stat you want. No player ever exceeded his contemporaries like Ruth did.

[GMAJAH25]

What if Ruth had the current advances in exercise and medicine?

Exercising and taking care of yourself became a new thing after he retired I guess.

Stick some steroids in his ass and he would have died even sooner.

[CyYoung31]

Barry Bonds and Ruth.

The best pure hitter I've personally ever seen though is Chipper Jones. Dude was just a master of his craft.

[zitothebrave]

You can spit out any stat you want. No player ever exceeded his contemporaries like Ruth did.

He's my pick if you check back a page or 2. BUT I have to say, you can talk up or down any player. So I think anyone can argue a right answer to this question.

For example, what would have happened if Teddy Ballgame didn't serve in WWII and Korea? He had a massive streak of 11 WAR seasons that were broken up by WWII. If he had let's just say another 40 WAR because of time missed in WWII and about 2 years missed from Korea He'd be right there with the Babe, what if Mantle took care of himself instead of drinking, smoking, etc.?

Could go on but I thik the best ever debate is highly debatable which makes it fun.

[DaneHill]

Roy Hobbs. Coulda broke every record in the books.

[AUTiger7222]

The best baseball player I ever got to see with my own 2 eyes was the Seattle version of Ken Griffey Jr. There was nothing he couldn't do on the field.

[AUTiger7222]

He's my pick if you check back a page or 2. BUT I have to say, you can talk up or down any player. So I think anyone can argue a right answer to this question.

For example, what would have happened if Teddy Ballgame didn't serve in WWII and Korea? He had a massive streak of 11 WAR seasons that were broken up by WWII. If he had let's just say another 40 WAR because of time missed in WWII and about 2 years missed from Korea He'd be right there with the Babe, what if Mantle took care of himself instead of drinking, smoking, etc.?

Could go on but I thik the best ever debate is highly debatable which makes it fun.

Warren Spahn would have easily won 400 games had it not been for missing time due to war service.

[Carp]

The players in todays game are much better athletes..

Look what these guys are doing against better competition...

I wish we could let the athletes of today slow pitch softball bomb players like Babe Ruth.

Evolution doesnt exist.


Being a better athlete doesn't make you a better hitter (see Francoeur, Jeffrey and Fielder, Prince)

The Babe had great eyes, one of the main reasons he was such a great hitter. There are stories that someone could write something on a ball, pitch it to him, and after he hit it, he'd tell you what you wrote on the ball.

And notion that they played "slow pitch softball" is silly as well. Pitchers also threw spitballs and scuffed balls with their finger nails, etc. They played with inferior equipment, in parks that were WAY bigger, and not very well lit in evening games.

[The Chosen One]

Watching Bonds hit the last few yeears steroids or not was extraordinary. His judgement of the strikezone was masterful. It was almost impossible to strike him out looking because even he didn't offer the umpire even gave him the benefit of the doubt it wasn't a strike.

[Carp]

As far as best ever, it's the Babe and it's not close. He could have been the best pitcher of all time had he just pitched his entire career. People seem to only remember the fat out-of-shape Ruth from his later yrs, but for much of his career he was in relatively good shape.

I will say that I believe Teddy Ballgame to be the best overall hitter of all time though. Mantle is obviously up there among the best all around players ever. Henry Aaron doesn't get enough love on this list either.

Bonds doesn't belong on these lists. Pretty much everrything he did after 96 is a direct product of Roids. He beefed up like 30 lbs in a 3 month span, then saw his numbers have a HUGE spike.

[57Brave]

Remember the weekend Bonds hit 6 HR in ATL?

[acesfull86]

(David Wright then) Ruth or Bonds, then Mays, for me.

[zitothebrave]

Here's my question to all the bonds didn't deserve it folks, how can you prove than any player Bonds played against was clean? How can you prove that players back in the day were clean? Anabolic steroids were first used in athletics back in Nazi Germany, obviously they refined the use over the years but who's to say that any player didn't have something they were using? What about guys in the 60s and 70s who used amphetamines to get out there and play everyday. Why do they get a pass for using a performance enhancing drug?

Bonds was on his way to having a 500/500 career, you know how many players did that in their career before him? None. He was a rare specimen of a player, and him taking Steroids took him from the best player of our era to the best player ever.

[sturg33]

I think Bonds is the best player of all time.

I don't think Ruth would have been as successful facing the LOOGYs of today. Still a monster - but I think his number would have taken a hit.

Also, Bonds on roids is the best hitter ever. Bonds pre-roids was a top 3 player of all time (hitting, defense, base running). His OBP abilities were unbelievable. And half the pitchers he faced were roided up. And half the league was roided up. And he was in a league of his own.

Best pitcher of all time? Greg Maddux. Dude dominated the steroid era like it was nothing, and was very likely clean (unlike Clemens). Most dominant pitcher ever? Pedro Martinez - just couldn't stay healthy like Maddux though.

[weso1]

Watching Bonds hit the last few yeears steroids or not was extraordinary. His judgement of the strikezone was masterful. It was almost impossible to strike him out looking because even he didn't offer the umpire even gave him the benefit of the doubt it wasn't a strike.

I think some people don't realize that Bonds was pretty much like that throughout his whole career. Since 1990 Bonds' lowest OBP was .406

Obviously things got almost silly at the end of his career OBP wise, but even if you normalize it, you're still talking about the best offensive player since Ruth/Williams. It's hard to compare eras.

[zitothebrave]

I think Bonds is the best player of all time.

I don't think Ruth would have been as successful facing the LOOGYs of today. Still a monster - but I think his number would have taken a hit.

Also, Bonds on roids is the best hitter ever. Bonds pre-roids was a top 3 player of all time (hitting, defense, base running). His OBP abilities were unbelievable. And half the pitchers he faced were roided up. And half the league was roided up. And he was in a league of his own.

Best pitcher of all time? Greg Maddux. Dude dominated the steroid era like it was nothing, and was very likely clean (unlike Clemens). Most dominant pitcher ever? Pedro Martinez - just couldn't stay healthy like Maddux though.

Pedro may be the most dominant pitcher ever but there are others certainly in the mix, Rube Waddell, Walter Johnson (dominant and longevity), Randy Johnson (just imagine if he found his control at a younger age), Kristy Mathewson, Sandy Koufax, etc.

And for me I have little doubt that Walter Johnson is the best pitcher of all time. Love Maddux, but Johnson did stuff that Maddux couldn't do.

[sturg33]

Pedro may be the most dominant pitcher ever but there are others certainly in the mix, Rube Waddell, Walter Johnson (dominant and longevity), Randy Johnson (just imagine if he found his control at a younger age), Kristy Mathewson, Sandy Koufax, etc.

And for me I have little doubt that Walter Johnson is the best pitcher of all time. Love Maddux, but Johnson did stuff that Maddux couldn't do.

I'm looking at it from the hitters they had to face.

Maddux had to pitch against Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, AROD, Pujols, Griffey, Walker, Helton, Thomas, Thome etc. And half the league was roided up.

[zitothebrave]

I'm looking at it from the hitters they had to face.

Maddux had to pitch against Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, AROD, Pujols, Griffey, Walker, Helton, Thomas, Thome etc. And half the league was roided up.

Walter Johnson had to face Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker Eddie Collins, Babe Ruth Shoeless Joe, etc. And didn't have as many weak players to face as the current pitcher, or night games, or many advantages current pitchers do have. Koufax had to face Willie Mays, Hammerin Hank, Frank Robinson, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, Roberto Clemente, etc.

Every great pitcher has to face great hitters. Sure Pedro faced some roided up freaks, but he also had things going for him. For example, Pedro has the lowest FIP- of any starting pitcher ever, but FIP- is based on the league average. So you can make a case one way or another, was Pedro really great or was the talent around him ****ty. Was Johnson really great or were the players he was facing ****ty.

In the end it's up to debate, and Pedro really was great, especially for the Red Sox, but I'll still take Walter Johnson, he's the Babe Ruth of pitching for me.

[jpx7]

he's the Babe Ruth of pitching for me.

Is Babe Ruth not the Babe Ruth of pitching?

[zitothebrave]

Is Babe Ruth not the Babe Ruth of pitching?

I was more going for someone who transcends the game. Johnson was a god among men when he played. Guys like Ty Cobb admitted he was the best pitcher he ever faced, and so on so forth.

[AUTiger7222]

I love how many people are saying Babe Ruth even though they never saw him play. Sorry I just don't believe in claiming someone to be the best of something when I never saw it with my own eyes.

[jpx7]

I love how many people are saying Babe Ruth even though they never saw him play. Sorry I just don't believe in claiming someone to be the best of something when I never saw it with my own eyes.

I wasn't in The Globe circa 1601, but I nonetheless feel confident in claiming Hamlet is the best play of all time.

[Krgrecw]

Ruth. I don't have the excat numbers in front of me but it took Aaron 4000 more at bats than Ruth to only hit 40 more homers than Ruth.

Ruth could had been a HOF pitcher

[bravesnumberone]

I think solid arguments could be made for guys like Williams, Mays and Mantle easily. But a big point is those guys all played at the same time for a significant amount of their careers. Ruth, compared to his contemporaries, transcended the game. Whenever someone mentions baseball history, I immediately think Babe Ruth.

[Carp]

Johnson also played in larger parks in times where they reused baseballs. And the baseballs themselves were much insferior to todays.


It wss much easier to be a good pitcher back then than it was to to be a good hitter. Johnson was great. Don't know that I'd say best all time, especially not for the reasons you gave.

[BRule]

Being a better athlete doesn't make you a better hitter (see Francoeur, Jeffrey and Fielder, Prince)

The Babe had great eyes, one of the main reasons he was such a great hitter. There are stories that someone could write something on a ball, pitch it to him, and after he hit it, he'd tell you what you wrote on the ball.

And notion that they played "slow pitch softball" is silly as well. Pitchers also threw spitballs and scuffed balls with their finger nails, etc. They played with inferior equipment, in parks that were WAY bigger, and not very well lit in evening games.


Bonds had an IsoOBP 0f 142 for his career, Ruth had one of 132.....so, if you go by the numbers, Bonds had the better eye.

As far as the pitching goes, it's not even close Bonds had to go up against Randy, Clemens, Pedro, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Schilling, etc and not to mention LOOGYs and closers, setup man....it's not close.

[Krgrecw]

Rule, couldn't u argue that Ruth went up against the best pitchers of his era?

You think the best running backs of the 60's and 70's would be as good today going up against much bigger, much faster and more athletic defensive players


I don't think u can compare players from different eras.

[BRule]

Rule, couldn't u argue that Ruth went up against the best pitchers of his era?

You think the best running backs of the 60's and 70's would be as good today going up against much bigger, much faster and more athletic defensive players


I don't think u can compare players from different eras.

Of course he did and arguing different eras is usually a fruitless endeavor BUT if someone is going to say Ruth is the best ever...you HAVE to point out that the pitching and talent pool now and in Bonds era is much greater than it was then. It's not really meant to knock Ruth, just like if you say Lana Turner was attractive in her era but I'd much rather bone Kate Upton. You aren't calling Turner ugly, just pointing out the difference in the 2 eras.

[jpx7]

just like if you say Lana Turner was attractive in her era but I'd much rather bone Kate Upton.

I'd take Elizabeth Taylor circa Giant a million times over either, personally.

[Bye Week]

Bonds is the best player I have ever seen regardless of what he did or when he did it.

Griffey is probably 2nd overall player.

Big Hurt, Pujols and Cabrera are all up there as far as just pure great hitters as well.

I can't judge the ones I never saw play.

[thewupk]

Rule, couldn't u argue that Ruth went up against the best pitchers of his era?

You think the best running backs of the 60's and 70's would be as good today going up against much bigger, much faster and more athletic defensive players


I don't think u can compare players from different eras.

You can't really compare players from different eras. But the fact is when Ruth played the pitching was on another level and not in a good way. There were only 8 teams. Meaning you hitters would see each starter about 6 times a year and it would be for the entire game most of the time. There were no specialists like loogys either. It's no secret the more time you see a pitcher the better you will hit against them. Now that's not to take anything away from Ruth. He had these 'disadvantages' when comparing him to todays players just like everyone else from his era and he stood alone as the best. When comparing players to their era he is the best ever and there's no discussion. However I don't think he would be as close to as being that good relative to the league ifhe played in todays game. If you were to put a Barry Bonds or Frank Thomas in that era I believe they would be heads and shoulders above everyone else like Ruth was.

So really it's hard. But the best player I've ever seen is Bonds and that preroids. His combination of hitting ability, defense, and base running is something I don't think we'll ever seen again.

[The Chosen One]

You can't really compare players from different eras. But the fact is when Ruth played the pitching was on another level and not in a good way. There were only 8 teams. Meaning you hitters would see each starter about 6 times a year and it would be for the entire game most of the time. There were no specialists like loogys either. It's no secret the more time you see a pitcher the better you will hit against them. Now that's not to take anything away from Ruth. He had these 'disadvantages' when comparing him to todays players just like everyone else from his era and he stood alone as the best. When comparing players to their era he is the best ever and there's no discussion. However I don't think he would be as close to as being that good relative to the league ifhe played in todays game. If you were to put a Barry Bonds or Frank Thomas in that era I believe they would be heads and shoulders above everyone else like Ruth was.

So really it's hard. But the best player I've ever seen is Bonds and that preroids. His combination of hitting ability, defense, and base running is something I don't think we'll ever seen again.

Maybe Trout one day?

[rico43]

The thread said "baseball player". That would be Ty Cobb, love him or hate him.

[NYCBrave]

You can't really compare players from different eras. But the fact is when Ruth played the pitching was on another level and not in a good way. There were only 8 teams. Meaning you hitters would see each starter about 6 times a year and it would be for the entire game most of the time. There were no specialists like loogys either. It's no secret the more time you see a pitcher the better you will hit against them. Now that's not to take anything away from Ruth. He had these 'disadvantages' when comparing him to todays players just like everyone else from his era and he stood alone as the best. When comparing players to their era he is the best ever and there's no discussion. However I don't think he would be as close to as being that good relative to the league ifhe played in todays game. If you were to put a Barry Bonds or Frank Thomas in that era I believe they would be heads and shoulders above everyone else like Ruth was.

So really it's hard. But the best player I've ever seen is Bonds and that preroids. His combination of hitting ability, defense, and base running is something I don't think we'll ever seen again.

See that's not a fair argument, saying the pitching was horrible in Ruth's era. While it may be true, the whole league of hitters in that time was facing the same crappy pitching. Ruth's stats completely obliterated everyone else in the league, and nobody was even close. He doubled the next highest HR hitter's total in many years. His OPS was way ahead of the 2nd in line most years. I mean, obviously none of us have seen him play, but looking purely at stats, nobody has dominated the game like he has in his time.

[GMAJAH25]

And notion that they played "slow pitch softball" is silly as well. Pitchers also threw spitballs and scuffed balls with their finger nails, etc. They played with inferior equipment, in parks that were WAY bigger, and not very well lit in evening games.

My reference to slow pitch softball was in regards to how easy it is to hit a HR in slow pitch softball.

Barry Bonds in the days of Ruth would resemble that....IMO.

[acesfull86]

If I had to pick a player to start a franchise with, it would be Bonds only because I don't trust what Ruth, Mays, etc would do in this generation. Game has changed.

[Carp]

Bonds had an IsoOBP 0f 142 for his career, Ruth had one of 132.....so, if you go by the numbers, Bonds had the better eye.

As far as the pitching goes, it's not even close Bonds had to go up against Randy, Clemens, Pedro, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Schilling, etc and not to mention LOOGYs and closers, setup man....it's not close.

I'm not arguing pitching being better, but certainly it was tougher to hit in significantly larger parks and with baseballs that didn't travel as far as they do today.

[zitothebrave]

Of course he did and arguing different eras is usually a fruitless endeavor BUT if someone is going to say Ruth is the best ever...you HAVE to point out that the pitching and talent pool now and in Bonds era is much greater than it was then. It's not really meant to knock Ruth, just like if you say Lana Turner was attractive in her era but I'd much rather bone Kate Upton. You aren't calling Turner ugly, just pointing out the difference in the 2 eras.

Is the pitching and talent pool much greater? Back in those days the best athletes played baseball. Now we may ge tthe best from the DR, but we don't get the best from America. As far as pitchign goes, Ruth played in an era where he didn't get to feast on as many bums as Bonds did either. Not to mention the park difference, the ball difference (balls today are much tighter woound and replaced more often)

The comparing across era thing is largely fruitless because it's comparing apples to oranges. When you compare apples to apples, Ruth has the best looking bunch of any player. no one dominated their contemporaries like Ruth and Walter Johnson did. The ONLY pitcher more dominant than Big Train was Clemens, but I don't know if you deduct points for him being a big old cheater, since like Bonds his numbers after his peak are way too crazy. If Big Train could have had a 60 WAR after turning 33 he would have annihilated anyone in baseball.

[thethe]

I don't think people understand just how dominant Ruth was.

[thewupk]

Maybe Trout one day?

I was thinking about him when I typed that. What he did last year and is doing this year is really impressive. If he keeps this up for a decade then he will be right there in that discussion. But keeping up that level play for an extended period of time is just tough to do. He has the tools for it though.

[57Brave]

Mike Trout reminds me of Freddy Lynn. Injuries got him.

Lynn was ROYand MVP in his first season. Funny thing is, his career pales next to Jim Rice. A rookie in '76 as well.
Lets hope injuries dont sidetrack Trouts career the way they did Lynns.

[mcollier]

My Top 5

Honus Wagner
Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Mickey Mantle
Evan Gattis ;)

[Tapate50]

Where was that Most Underated Player thread? I had a new name.

[Orphan Black]

Yeah...I don't know how the answer to this isn't Ruth...the guy had 11 seasons where he hit 40+ homers...11!

He walked almost twice as many times as he struck out. His OPS+ was over 200. He won almost 100 games as a pitcher.

The guy was video game good.

[Heyward]

Barry Bonds was the best I've ever seen.

[gtcway]

I was angry about Bonds back in the day just like every other non Giants fan, but looking back at it, there's just no way I can say anyone else was better. He just flat out dominated. Other guys who were also on roids, didn't even come close. Did he get some super special roids that other players couldn't get? I doubt it. He just had the talent and the body to put together the best career of any batter in baseball. Did steroids help him? Absolutely, but no one else steroids or not even came close to what he did.
I'm glad I got to see him play, because I'll probably never see anyone like it again in my life.

[Mad Dog Murph]

Ted Williams.....he lost his prime years to WWII, came back and still dominated. Ted Williams was the man.

[Pugfan]

Babe Ruth and its not even close. Number 2 maybe his teammate Lou Gehrig.

[GovClintonTyree]

Well, since I never saw the Babe, I have trouble saying it was him. Though the idea of a premier LHP turning into the home run king other than Hank is pretty compelling.

I just got back from Safeco where Junior was feted tonight and inducted into their HOF...it'd be pretty hard for me to think of a clean player who was better than Junior.

[GovClintonTyree]

Ted Williams.....he lost his prime years to WWII, came back and still dominated. Ted Williams was the man.

Not only did Ted lose time in WWII, he lost time in Korea. He would've had more than Babe if he'd played those five seasons. Not a great fielder from what my dad says, though. If you told me he was the greatest hitter of all time, I'd go along.

[GovClintonTyree]

Barry Bonds was the best I've ever seen.

Barry Bonds was a cheat.

[Braves1976]

The thread said "baseball player". That would be Ty Cobb, love him or hate him.

Agreed.

[gtcway]

Barry Bonds was a cheat.

So were lots of other guys, but they didn't come close to what Bonds did.

[GovClintonTyree]

So were lots of other guys, but they didn't come close to what Bonds did.

Meh. Playing a different game. Dead to me.

[JCarbo76]

1. Ruth: In a class by himself. Batting average close to Cobb. Homers and Walks aren't in the same time zone. Ruth would have been one of the top pitchers of all time.
2. Williams: War years and defense keep him at 2.
3. Wagner
4. Bonds, even with the roid factor in there.
5. Cobb

[cajunrevenge]

I'm not arguing pitching being better, but certainly it was tougher to hit in significantly larger parks and with baseballs that didn't travel as far as they do today.

I agree with the pitching being better, but if the parks are bigger that also means more area for the outfielders to cover. I think the popularity of the slider makes it harder to hit in the majors. Without the low and away slider Andruw would have been better than Trout is now.

[Dalyn]

That one dude. He was good.

[DirkPiggler]

I was angry about Bonds back in the day just like every other non Giants fan, but looking back at it, there's just no way I can say anyone else was better. He just flat out dominated. Other guys who were also on roids, didn't even come close. Did he get some super special roids that other players couldn't get? I doubt it. He just had the talent and the body to put together the best career of any batter in baseball. Did steroids help him? Absolutely, but no one else steroids or not even came close to what he did.
I'm glad I got to see him play, because I'll probably never see anyone like it again in my life.

That's part of what makes Bonds and his steroid use so frustrating. He would have been a Hall of Famer even if he'd never touched the juice. Granted it would have been with about 500 home runs instead of 762, but he would have still gotten there. Barry just got jealous of all the attention that guys like McGwire and Sosa, both players who couldn't carry Bonds' jock with or without chemical enhancement, received from the home run record chase.

[50PoundHead]

Babe Ruth changed the entire paradigm of baseball. Same with Wilt Chamberlain in basketball. The game became different because they played it (Wilt actually caused rules to be changed).

That said, Ted Williams ranks as the best to me. The missed service time probably kept him from breaking just about every hitting record.

I think Griffey's injuries prevented him from being the best all-around player in the past 40 years. Bonds was a great offensive force, but Griffey was a tremendous CF.

I don't want to wade into the steroid discussion (although I believe it has tainted the game to the point that there will be an asterisk shortage), but the other thing about Bonds is that he went to the plate with more armor than a Samurai. Take the padding off some of these guys and then see how close they want to stand to the plate. Former Minnesota manager (and noted crank) Tom Kelly used to beef about that all the time and I agree.

The best hitter I ever saw personally was Rod Carew. Simply unbelievable hitter who labored in obscurity for the most part.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Why does no one consider Pete Rose.

[zitothebrave]

Why does no one consider Pete Rose.

Not that special.

He is a pretty excellent hitter, but was not a good fielder. Guys like Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, and Hammerin Hank are all clearly better overall players and Williams is clearly the superior hitter if you go for an offensive first player.

[JohnAdcox]

Best player I've ever seen is Bonds, roids or no roids...he was the best.

Ever, Cobb or Ruth.

Ever wonder what Ruth's career totals would have been if they'd had the DH in his day?