Rosenthal: Growing Pains In Atlanta, Or Big Changes Coming?

[CrimsonCowboy]

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/braves-manager-fredi-gonzalez-gm-frank-wren-ceo-terry-mcguirk-job-on-line-or-growing-pains-090914

[emk418]

I just can't understand how anyone can call this growing pains.

[50PoundHead]

Uggla was on a Hall of Fame track? We need to start institute random drug testing for sportswriters.

[Julio3000]

I just can't understand how anyone can call this growing pains.

Because we're still one of the youngest clubs in MLB?

[BremanFan88]

Because we're still one of the youngest clubs in MLB?

Yeah that's what I was thinking.

[gcbraves]

I just can't understand how anyone can call this growing pains.
If you watched the '88-'90 teams you would.

[zitothebrave]

Yeah that's what I was thinking.

The thing is that youth and performance don't correlate negatively. Usually young teams are better.

[rico43]

I'm prepared to bestow Simmons with the sophomore jinx label, belatedly, for this year. But his platinum glove won't keep him around with the talent pushing him.

[BremanFan88]

The thing is that youth and performance don't correlate negatively. Usually young teams are better.

They probably had a better leader to guide them though.

[BremanFan88]

But his platinum glove won't keep him around with the talent pushing him.

Yeah it will. So much so that the Braves made a guy change positions because of it.

[CyYoung31]

We need to get rid of the dead weight like CJ and BJ to be sure, but this was just a weird season for Heyward and Freeman, and an unusually terrible year for our bench.

[57Brave]

If you watched the '88-'90 teams you would.

or the 80-81 team for that matter

[bravesnumberone]

I'm not even sure we crack 80 wins at this point. Pretty obvious changes need to be made. We're going backwards.

[57Brave]

edit:

That wasn't necessary

[57Brave]

We need to get rid of the dead weight like CJ and BJ to be sure, but this was just a weird season for Heyward and Freeman, and an unusually terrible year for our bench.

CJ reminded me of Ken Oberkfell . One season where he played way over his head. Difference is, Whitey Herzog saw that.
Very similar players. So-so fielders, littler pop for a corner infder , some ability to put the ball in play but very obvious holes in his swing too

Braves fans at that time had the same feelings for KF as todays do for CJ. Both were nice stop gap players but in no way long term answers

[jason27nc]

I liked this one.

"Everybody is accountable," McGuirk told the AJC’s Schultz. "You mentioned two guys who are accountable, I’m holding myself accountable. I don’t want to make any predictions. I don’t want to say even how or when meetings will occur. But if we don’t have success, know that we won’t be satisfied and we’ll be looking at things very hard."

[weso1]

That was a pretty fair article. Pointed out the bad and the good. I think a shake up will come if we don't make the playoffs. Biggest reason is because attendance is going down.

[Dalyn]

This organization ignored many of the problems after the collapse in '11. They can't do that again.

[The Chosen One]

I liked this one.

"Everybody is accountable," McGuirk told the AJC’s Schultz. "You mentioned two guys who are accountable, I’m holding myself accountable. I don’t want to make any predictions. I don’t want to say even how or when meetings will occur. But if we don’t have success, know that we won’t be satisfied and we’ll be looking at things very hard."

McGuirk feeding the media what they want, not likely what's going to happen.

I'd be very surprised if Fredi is fired. I'd be less surprised if the hitting coaches are fired as scapegoats.

I'd be shocked if Wren were canned.

[bravesnumberone]

I'm gonna call McGurik's bluff on this one. He won't do anything. It'll be cast off on Walker and Fletcher, and that'll be the extent of it.

[57Brave]

This organization ignored many of the problems after the collapse in '11. They can't do that again.

Funny because the REd Sox had an equal collapse and it is interesting the paths the two teams have taken.
Sox cleaned house won WS only to collapse the following season

Braves stayed steady and loyal -

I think there is something to be said for both sides. As a fan of both teams today I am more encouraged with the youth and front office of the Sox.
Proactive isn't a strong enough word. How's bout the Marlins with a bankroll

[Dalyn]

Funny because the REd Sox had an equal collapse and it is interesting the paths the two teams have taken.
Sox cleaned house won WS only to collapse the following season

Braves stayed steady and loyal -

I think there is something to be said for both sides. As a fan of both teams today I am more encouraged with the youth and front office of the Sox.
Proactive isn't a strong enough word. How's bout the Marlins with a bankroll

The appropriate response would've been something in the middle. A few key subtractions. Like you said, the Red Sox won the World Series two years later, so their approach was closer to the right one than ours.

[57Brave]

I feel like if they didnt jettison Gonzalez after that they never will.

After that season there was a huge warranted personnel turnover - I expect that this winter
Again I'm in favor of changing the wole managerial-coaching staff.

this is a young team and methinks they could use another cast of voices.
Having said that the new voices will say the same things (unless they bring in a Kirk Gibson type which is what I hear many hear calling for)

The Nats are playing so much better for Williams than Johnson. Same players (less Zimm plus Astrubil) In 2013 the Sox I'm sure enjoyed hearing it from Farrell rather than Tito. Just a change.

Fredi and the coaches will get other jobs - they are all proven MLB leaders. Just time for everyone to geta change of scenery
(on another note - who else thinks the Nats helped themselves inadvertantly by have Cabrera instead of RyZimm !!!)

[Dalyn]

Fredi needs to manage a team with less on the line. Would be a good guy for someone rebuilding and three or four years away from contending. I just hope he doesn't turn this team into THAT team. Might as well stick around if he does.

[57Brave]

Doesn't that seem to be a new trend in pro sports? Targeting certain types leaders for certain levels of the procesI personally think this team has gotten from Fredi what Fredi has to give.
If memory serves the Marlins were successful to a point then they seemed to tune him out. I know they had an in between guy or two but the next major hire they had at manager was Ozzie.

Wonder how Ozzie would play in ATL? Cox loved him and wsas one of the first to say he was manager material.

[Dalyn]

Doesn't that seem to be a new trend in pro sports? Targeting certain types leaders for certain levels of the procesI personally think this team has gotten from Fredi what Fredi has to give.
If memory serves the Marlins were successful to a point then they seemed to tune him out. I know they had an in between guy or two but the next major hire they had at manager was Ozzie.

Wonder how Ozzie would play in ATL? Cox loved him and wsas one of the first to say he was manager material.

I wanted to see us fire Fredi (he's a terrible manager when the game or season is on the line) before September and give Snitker a look under pressure of a playoff race. Clearly that isn't going to happen.

[CyYoung31]

This organization ignored many of the problems after the collapse in '11. They can't do that again.

What? We won 94 games and coasted to the playoffs the next year. The organization did what it should have done. That September was a massive fluke fueled by injuries.

[Dalyn]

What? We won 94 games and coasted to the playoffs the next year. The organization did what it should have done. That September was a massive fluke fueled by injuries.

Okay.

[nsacpi]

Funny because the REd Sox had an equal collapse and it is interesting the paths the two teams have taken.
Sox cleaned house won WS only to collapse the following season

Braves stayed steady and loyal -

I think there is something to be said for both sides. As a fan of both teams today I am more encouraged with the youth and front office of the Sox.
Proactive isn't a strong enough word. How's bout the Marlins with a bankroll

Red Sox changed managers twice. Bobby Valentine was their first answer. They won the WS last year with some of their lesser players putting together very good seasons. In retrospect, they had a tremendous amount of luck last year that I would say was unrelated to the turnover at the manager spot.

[nsacpi]

Btw...letting go of Schafer might turn out to be a big mistake, but not much is made of it around here since just about everyone wanted him released.

[Dalyn]

Btw...letting go of Schafer might turn out to be a big mistake, but not much is made of it around here since just about everyone wanted him released.

It's not a mistake. He would've never played this way on the Braves, and he's shown this type of temporary results before only to crash right back down to below the level of suck.

[Dalyn]

I mean, he has already started his decline. 1-11 with 5 Ks.

[Knucksie]

CJ reminded me of Ken Oberkfell . One season where he played way over his head. Difference is, Whitey Herzog saw that.


It might also have had something to do with Terry Pendleton coming up. Then, the Braves went and go him too!

[57Brave]

Nah Knucksie - remember Jim Presley? He might be the closest on field comparison to BJ. I think there was one or two others too.
Ron Gant was tried there as well before TP. Oberkfell went to the Pirates with Zane Smith if memory serves in -- 88? That might be how they wound up with Omar Moreno. Another on field comparison.

Looking back that was the issue with the late 80's teams Murph and 7 BJ's !!

[50PoundHead]

Btw...letting go of Schafer might turn out to be a big mistake, but not much is made of it around here since just about everyone wanted him released.

Not if he was going to be used the way he was being used. I wouldn't call myself a Schafer fan. The guy has some warts. But he's a perfectly suitable 4th OF type if he gets enough action to stay sharp. He stunk all year for us, but his best month (not very good) was the one in which he saw the most action. There aren't a ton of guys who can be productive with 15 to 20 ABs a month. He plays good defense and he is a very good baserunner. He's done well in Minnesota partially because there is no pressure and partially because he is getting predictable playing time. Again, he's no world-beater, but I won't be surprised if he has a better big league career than either Todd Cunningham or Kyle Wren.

[gilesfan]

Not if he was going to be used the way he was being used. I wouldn't call myself a Schafer fan. The guy has some warts. But he's a perfectly suitable 4th OF type if he gets enough action to stay sharp. He stunk all year for us, but his best month (not very good) was the one in which he saw the most action. There aren't a ton of guys who can be productive with 15 to 20 ABs a month. He plays good defense and he is a very good baserunner. He's done well in Minnesota partially because there is no pressure and partially because he is getting predictable playing time. Again, he's no world-beater, but I won't be surprised if he has a better big league career than either Todd Cunningham or Kyle Wren.

I agree. But then again his career could also go up in smoke.

[nsacpi]

Given the way BJ was playing, I don't understand why Schafer wasn't given one or two games a week on a regular basis. This is not about Schafer. It is about how you use a substitute, especially at a position where the starter is having a poor season.

[Dalyn]

Given the way BJ was playing, I don't understand why Schafer wasn't given one or two games a week on a regular basis. This is not about Schafer. It is about how you use a substitute, especially at a position where the starter is having a poor season.

Let me try to clear up any confusion -

.204 .313 .287 .600

.242 .309 .315 .624

.211 .297 .294 .591 (most playing time)

.247 .331 .346 .677

.243 .325 .306 .631

[50PoundHead]

I feel like if they didnt jettison Gonzalez after that they never will.

After that season there was a huge warranted personnel turnover - I expect that this winter
Again I'm in favor of changing the wole managerial-coaching staff.

this is a young team and methinks they could use another cast of voices.
Having said that the new voices will say the same things (unless they bring in a Kirk Gibson type which is what I hear many hear calling for)

The Nats are playing so much better for Williams than Johnson. Same players (less Zimm plus Astrubil) In 2013 the Sox I'm sure enjoyed hearing it from Farrell rather than Tito. Just a change.

Fredi and the coaches will get other jobs - they are all proven MLB leaders. Just time for everyone to geta change of scenery
(on another note - who else thinks the Nats helped themselves inadvertantly by have Cabrera instead of RyZimm !!!)

Asdrubal Cabrera is a pretty good ballplayer, but so is Ryan Zimmerman. Rendon is probably more comfortable at 3B than 2B, so that's maybe a plus. Cabrera is a SS playing 2B, so they probably gain defense there. Having Zimmerman back for the playoffs will make the Nats a tough squad. Lots of flexibility and the assurance of a good bat off the bench (whichever of the guys is on the bench).

[57Brave]

Don't ask me why, I have no data to back this up, but I see the Nats line up working better with Cabrera rather than Zimmerman.
The Nats have 3 quality plus middle line up players. Werth.LaRouche and Desmond
I do think lineups can be middle heavy

With JHey hitting 5 I see the Braves lineup work better with Bethencourt rather than Gattis.

There is no basis for this idea and it is totally illogical it just seems to be that way. The Nats seemed to hit their stride after this deal was done and the team was settled
I guess flow is the word I am looking for. Or as Fredi says "the line keeps moving"

I'm curious to see how Williams handles Zimm coming back. Curiouser still to see how the team reacts

This is as strange to me as the Braves record with and without Uggla. I always had the feeling the "team" hit better with him in the lineup. Thinking the numbers might bear that out.
What a strange ****ing game

[Runnin]

The Nats are playing so much better for Williams than Johnson.
Or maybe they're just playing better and finally starting to realize they're a good team. It takes a while for new teammates to gel and build good team confidence.

Last year with CJ, Simmons and Freeman having career years we appeared better than we actually were.

[50PoundHead]

Or maybe they're just playing better and finally starting to realize they're a good team. It takes a while for new teammates to gel and build good team confidence.

Last year with CJ, Simmons and Freeman having career years we appeared better than we actually were.

Good points, especially about our guys. I think a lot of folks were optimistic that we'd see a repeat, especially on Johnson. I rag on Johnson a lot and I don't think he's all that good, but he's better than he's played this season. He just seems to be plagued by a Francoeur brainlock. I did think Simmons was over his head last year, but again, I didn't think he'd be this bad. The baseball gods have gotten back at Freeman for when he popped off in April or May about how no one could get him out. He's still had a solid season, but the offense started to get really erratic when he didn't maintain his early season pace.

[Enscheff]

Good points, especially about our guys. I think a lot of folks were optimistic that we'd see a repeat, especially on Johnson. I rag on Johnson a lot and I don't think he's all that good, but he's better than he's played this season. He just seems to be plagued by a Francoeur brainlock. I did think Simmons was over his head last year, but again, I didn't think he'd be this bad. The baseball gods have gotten back at Freeman for when he popped off in April or May about how no one could get him out. He's still had a solid season, but the offense started to get really erratic when he didn't maintain his early season pace.

I think only the most dense members of the fan base expected anything other than regression from CJ this year. The only question was how much.

[50PoundHead]

I think only the most dense members of the fan base expected anything other than regression from CJ this year. The only question was how much.

I expected a regression on Johnson, but not this much. I'm talking more about the people I tangled with when I wrote vehemently against the extension. They still seem to think he's good.

[COGPK]

I love the Braves and have since 1966. I am also probably the biggest optimist when it comes to trades and the future of the team. HOWEVER, it is time for them to clean up and go another direction headed towards the new stadium. Teheran, Wood, Kimbrell, Freeman, Simmons, Bethancourt and J Upton are my only keepers and nobody is untouchable. Wren and Fredi has to go as well. Just my O.

[jason27nc]

I love the Braves and have since 1966. I am also probably the biggest optimist when it comes to trades and the future of the team. HOWEVER, it is time for them to clean up and go another direction headed towards the new stadium. Teheran, Wood, Kimbrell, Freeman, Simmons, Bethancourt and J Upton are my only keepers and nobody is untouchable. Wren and Fredi has to go as well. Just my O.

I think you have to keep Heyward as well but I agree with the rest of your list.

[nsacpi]

Keeping Bethancourt rather than Gattis would be a big mistake imo.

[Dalyn]

Keeping Bethancourt rather than Gattis would be a big mistake imo.

Yep. Bethancourt needs a year as a backup. Gattis/Bethancourt is the right move. You can trade Gattis and go with Bethancourt (if he does a good job as backup) in 2016.

[COGPK]

I think it's OK to keep Heyward. He is still young and could break out soon. As for Gattis, he has trade value. We need to get away from the strike out guys. It would be nice to get a real leadoff hitter.

[thewupk]

I think it's OK to keep Heyward. He is still young and could break out soon. As for Gattis, he has trade value. We need to get away from the strike out guys. It would be nice to get a real leadoff hitter.

We need to get away from the guys that can't hit at the plate regardless if they K or not. Unless it's a mass overpay in return I don't see how trading one of the few guys that can hit is going to help this team. Gattis, Heyard, Freeman, and Justin aren't the problem. The problem is the other 4 spots are among the worst in baseball.

[nsacpi]

We need to get away from the guys that can't hit at the plate regardless if they K or not. Unless it's a mass overpay in return I don't see how trading one of the few guys that can hit is going to help this team. Gattis, Heyard, Freeman, and Justin aren't the problem. The problem is the other 4 spots are among the worst in baseball.

It amazes me that people want to add Bethancourt's .580 OPS to the everyday lineup.

[thewupk]

It amazes me that people want to add Bethancourt's .580 OPS to the everyday lineup.

Yup that would then be 5 regular spots who are among the worst in the sport in hitting.

[bravesnumberone]

Even if we just found real hitters at CF and 3B, it would help tremendously.

[nsacpi]

Even if we just found real hitters at CF and 3B, it would help tremendously.

Even fielding zero WAR players at CF and 3B that didn't cost a quarter of payroll would help tremendously.

[Knucksie]

Bethancourt doesn't even have 1/2 a season of major league experience, or "sample rate," and at least one of the usual suspects already has his career written off.

[nsacpi]

Bethancourt doesn't even have 1/2 a season of major league experience, or "sample rate," and at least one of the usual suspects already has his career written off.

I'm not writing him off. But I do think he has yet to show enough with the bat to justify inclusion into the everyday lineup.

[JohnAdcox]

I expected a regression on Johnson, but not this much. I'm talking more about the people I tangled with when I wrote vehemently against the extension. They still seem to think he's good.

I was one of the ones for the extension. Not because I thought he was good, or even as good as he looked last year. It was because I didn't see anything better on the horizon for the money (I still don't), because the contract looked tradable, and because I didn't see THIS much of a regression.

[nsacpi]

What should we expect out of CJ next year. Obviously something between 2013 and 2014, but closer to which?

[50PoundHead]

I was one of the ones for the extension. Not because I thought he was good, or even as good as he looked last year. It was because I didn't see anything better on the horizon for the money (I still don't), because the contract looked tradable, and because I didn't see THIS much of a regression.

I know I didn't tangle with you about Johnson. You are consistently polite and these guys weren't.

[nsacpi]

Everyone around here is consistently polite.

Except for thethe.

[clvclv]

I was one of the ones for the extension. Not because I thought he was good, or even as good as he looked last year. It was because I didn't see anything better on the horizon for the money (I still don't), because the contract looked tradable, and because I didn't see THIS much of a regression.

Agreed.

[nsacpi]

One thing that made the CJ deal slightly awkward was that he and his agent approached the Braves not the other way around. What should a team do when that happens? Just say not interested? Ignore the possible psychological fallout?

[Millwood1Hitter]

One thing that made the CJ deal slightly awkward was that he and his agent approached the Braves not the other way around. What should a team do when that happens? Just say not interested? Ignore the possible psychological fallout?

"Let's play it out and reevaluate at the end of the season"

[emk418]

"Let's play it out and reevaluate at the end of the season"

This. I was all for the extensions. 100% the right move. But the CJ deal was idiotic and made no sense.

[JohnAdcox]

I know I didn't tangle with you about Johnson. You are consistently polite and these guys weren't.

Just taking my lumps. I WAS in favor of the extension for the reasons I gave. Looks like a poor opinion to stand by now. ;-)