Detroit??

[57Brave]

In the 70's with much hand wringing Gerald Ford pushed to keep NYC solvent.
I think we as a nation should get behind Detroit.

What say you?????

[thethe]

Until people move back to Detroit its hopeless. Not sure how to make it attractive again but they are less than 50% occupancy in the city from what I read.

[kingphatcow]

let it go bankrupt. it's so liberal/union/corrupt that we might as well just set our money on fire.

[Tapate50]

Without money coming in, its throwing good money after bad.

[zitothebrave]

Let it tank. Eventually hipsters will go there and gentrify the **** out of that place. Look at Brooklyn. 20 years ago place was a ****hole, now it's one of the richer areas out there.

[57Brave]

...and the people living there? How do they live, who collects the trash -patrols the streets - keeps the lights on?

or do we leave them the way New Orleans was left during Katrina:
Are we Americans? Are we a United States or every man for himself?

[57Brave]

Let it tank. Eventually hipsters will go there and gentrify the **** out of that place. Look at Brooklyn. 20 years ago place was a ****hole, now it's one of the richer areas out there.

good point- but like one person above said, how do you attract people? Brooklyn has the highest real estate ranges in the country across the river --- to attract people

[weso1]

Basic local services should continue during the bankruptcy. At least one would hope so.

[zitothebrave]

good point- but like one person above said, how do you attract people? Brooklyn has the highest real estate ranges in the country across the river --- to attract people

Hipsters find their way. It will happen. They find pretty much any other city. Heck a nearby Hipster haven of Minneapolis and Chicago would probably lose a few. Portland isn't by anything and it's arguably the biggest hipster city in the world.

[Tapate50]

When all the property is cheap enough, someone will buy. Always happens and they aren't making more land last I checked.

[zitothebrave]

When all the property is cheap enough, someone will buy. Always happens and they aren't making more land last I checked.

Yup. Someone will buy up healthy chunks of the city then others will follow. If I had the money I'd buy up some of the old Detroit mansions. Not to mention eventually the city/state will make itself more corporate friendly moving jobs there.

[57Brave]

and this:

By focusing the blame for Detroit’s bankruptcy solely on workers’ pensions, rather than having a more comprehensive discussion that includes both pension benefits and corporate giveaways, the right can engineer the political environment for the truly immoral reality mentioned at the beginning of this article — the one highlighted this week by the Associated Press story headlined “Arena Likely Still On Track, Business As Usual For Sports Teams Despite Bankruptcy Filing.” Yes, that’s correct: at the same time government officials are talking about slashing the meager $19,000-a-year pensions of workers who don’t get Social Security, those officials are promising that they will still go forward with a plan to spend a whopping $283 million of taxpayer money on a new stadium for the Red Wings.

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/23/dont_buy_the_right_wing_myth_about_detroit/

[zitothebrave]

This is great

http://thedailyshow.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/tds/videos/season_18/18129/ds_18129_02.jpg

[weso1]

and this:

By focusing the blame for Detroit’s bankruptcy solely on workers’ pensions, rather than having a more comprehensive discussion that includes both pension benefits and corporate giveaways, the right can engineer the political environment for the truly immoral reality mentioned at the beginning of this article — the one highlighted this week by the Associated Press story headlined “Arena Likely Still On Track, Business As Usual For Sports Teams Despite Bankruptcy Filing.” Yes, that’s correct: at the same time government officials are talking about slashing the meager $19,000-a-year pensions of workers who don’t get Social Security, those officials are promising that they will still go forward with a plan to spend a whopping $283 million of taxpayer money on a new stadium for the Red Wings.

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/23/dont_buy_the_right_wing_myth_about_detroit/

I like that the writer invented a strawman argument from the right and then made a really long article bashing that argument. Seems like it would've saved him some time if he just wouldn't have invented that strawman argument in the first place.

[acesfull86]

I like that the writer invented a strawman argument from the right and then made a really long article bashing that argument. Seems like it would've saved him some time if he just wouldn't have invented that strawman argument in the first place.

That's just good journalism right there

[bravesnumberone]

Well Obama said he wasn't going to let it go bankrupt during the election campaign, so we should be good, right? Right?

[50PoundHead]

and this:

By focusing the blame for Detroit’s bankruptcy solely on workers’ pensions, rather than having a more comprehensive discussion that includes both pension benefits and corporate giveaways, the right can engineer the political environment for the truly immoral reality mentioned at the beginning of this article — the one highlighted this week by the Associated Press story headlined “Arena Likely Still On Track, Business As Usual For Sports Teams Despite Bankruptcy Filing.” Yes, that’s correct: at the same time government officials are talking about slashing the meager $19,000-a-year pensions of workers who don’t get Social Security, those officials are promising that they will still go forward with a plan to spend a whopping $283 million of taxpayer money on a new stadium for the Red Wings.

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/23/dont_buy_the_right_wing_myth_about_detroit/

I think the problem in a lot of American cities is that changing patterns of work and development have robbed cities of a ton of tax base and left them with a dwindling tax base to maintain the necessary funding structure. I can't remark about other states, but in Minnesota, public workers have long contributed to their own pension and health benefits which is different than in many other states/cities experiencing problems. But police and fire are necessary expenditures and pension costs are a legitimate part of that. That doesn't mean contribution rates and benefit structures shouldn't be explored, but I'm willing to provide incentives for those folks who want to put their lives on the line in service of the community.

The other side of the coin though (and here is where a ton of cities make a ton of mistakes) is the give-aways to corporations to re-locate into a city. With increasing competition for corporate presence, those deals rarely pay off as there is always someone willing to under-bid for a company or corporate reorganizations move a corporate presence before the incentives have paid for themselves. And stadiums, arenas, and other entertainment centers don't provide stable economic development past the construction of said facilities. What has saved us in the Twin Cities is that the "money" has stayed in town. There are strong middle class communities within the Twin Cities (and more than a smattering of rich folks) that are willing to pay for a certain basket of public goods. It appears to me (and I could easily be wrong) that all the "money" has left Detroit. The big bucks to the Gross Pointe family of suburbs and the middle class to places like Livonia, Novi, Taylor and other mid-priced venues. And when income leaves, property values dwindle. That hasn't left much in Detroit.

I don't know what to do, but the solution is going to have to go beyond the simplistic which both sides tend to employ.

[CK86]

If you bail out Detroit, don't you risk setting the precedence of bailing out any big city that manages their money poorly? I'm guessing those in California will be eagerly watching how this is handled. I hope we don't bail out Detroit but with the current President and Congress, I just know it's coming.

[Julio3000]

If you bail out Detroit, don't you risk setting the precedence of bailing out any big city that manages their money poorly? I'm guessing those in California will be eagerly watching how this is handled. I hope we don't bail out Detroit but with the current President and Congress, I just know it's coming.

Yeah, Congress is really on board with the President's agenda.

[50PoundHead]

If you bail out Detroit, don't you risk setting the precedence of bailing out any big city that manages their money poorly? I'm guessing those in California will be eagerly watching how this is handled. I hope we don't bail out Detroit but with the current President and Congress, I just know it's coming.

NYC was bailed out in the 1970s, so there is a precedent. The problem is in this instance is that there is a difference in degree of the current state of affairs and the prospects for the future than what existed in the case of NYC.

[zitothebrave]

To be honest I'm torn on this re-bailout

For starters I dont' want it to happen because I'm not a fan of bailouts. But how can you make a case for bailing out banks that lead to our economic collapse or auto manufacturers who couldnt' run their business well, but not bail out the people who were effected by those 2?

[57Brave]

(not argumentative)
How so?



NYC was bailed out in the 1970s, so there is a precedent. The problem is in this instance is that there is a difference in degree of the current state of affairs and the prospects for the future than what existed in the case of NYC.

[50PoundHead]

(not argumentative)
How so?

How is this different than NYC in the 1970s?

I'd say two big reasons: (1) There was then, and is still now, a ton of money in NYC related to a commercial, not manufacturing base. Unless Detroit can re-attract a lot of business (without going overboard with the subsidies), they won't be able to re-build the tax base. (2) The percentage of people living in the suburbs has doubled since the 1950s and that pattern has been fairly extreme in the Detroit SMSA. I don't know if Detroit, as a city, even serves as the true hub of the SMSA anymore.

I'm fine with a bailout, but I am not optimistic in the case of Detroit that it's going to mean much unless urban living once again becomes the norm.

They should have thought about (and maybe they have) some region-wide tax base sharing before things got to this point.

[weso1]

To be honest I'm torn on this re-bailout

For starters I dont' want it to happen because I'm not a fan of bailouts. But how can you make a case for bailing out banks that lead to our economic collapse or auto manufacturers who couldnt' run their business well, but not bail out the people who were effected by those 2?

Let's see... Bailout to help prevent a run on bank deposit accounts and another Great Depression or bailout to help prevent Jim Bob Cooter from receiving less in his pension? I don't know how you can make a case between the two. They are basically the exact same thing.

[zitothebrave]

Let's see... Bailout to help prevent a run on bank deposit accounts and another Great Depression or bailout to help prevent Jim Bob Cooter from receiving less in his pension? I don't know how you can make a case between the two. They are basically the exact same thing.

Maybe a depression would have done good for the country. Maybe we could have come out the other side stronger than we are now even more enslaved to Corporate empires.

[sturg33]

If you bail out Detroit, don't you risk setting the precedence of bailing out any big city that manages their money poorly? I'm guessing those in California will be eagerly watching how this is handled. I hope we don't bail out Detroit but with the current President and Congress, I just know it's coming.

Looks to me like it would be the fed that does the bailing out.

Ron Paul had a great exchange with Bernanke precisely about this subject...

I can't find the full exchange but here is the gist of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=v_V7UwmElaY&t=279

[50PoundHead]

Here's an interesting article on the Detroit situation from The New Republic.

Richard Florida is an interesting guy and his change of opinion from four years ago is a bit puzzling.

Anyway, a nice synopsis of how they got there and some of the options now.

Link: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114013/richard-floridas-detroit-flip-flop-save-or-not-save?utm_campaign=tnr-daily-newsletter&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=9726276#

[Yogi44]

So the big city of Detroit decalres bankruptcy.... so what do the leaders of the city council think they need to work on??
That's putting your priorities in order.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/26/detroits-city-council-spends-time-weighing-in-on-zimmerman-case-puts-motor-city/

[elmonthc]

Some think the new stadium.will help the economy.

[57Brave]

Pittsburgh has Carnegie Mellon. In Cleveland, there's Case Western Reserve. What if there had been, say, a Henry Ford University in Detroit? """

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/could-a-private-university-have-made-a-difference-in-detroit/278148/