So... what now? Season is over and Hart broke our hearts.

[AerchAngel]

I will finish YNOT when I can type with my left hand. They botched the IV for anesthesia (Ulna nerve issues) so I am henpecking that is why I don't post. Nevermind me.

Hart bringing him back means Bobby had some say so in it meaning our hitting coaches will be back. I guess they think they can turn this around.

What do you think about it?

We need new coaches to fix Simmons and Freeman, 144 k's is a lot for a pure hitter that we thought. Heyward k's were less than a hundred but his homers were way down, so how do we approach that?

I do think BJ will be better next year, just a feeling I have unless someone takes him which I would gladly do. I would eat CJ contract and give him away, I do not like him at all.

If an AL team want Gattis, ship him please. He doesn't adjust enough for me.

[bravesfanforlife88]

I will finish YNOT when I can type with my left hand. They botched the IV for anesthesia (Ulna nerve issues) so I am henpecking that is why I don't post. Nevermind me.

Hart bringing him back means Bobby had some say so in it meaning our hitting coaches will be back. I guess they think they can turn this around.

What do you think about it?

We need new coaches to fix Simmons and Freeman, 144 k's is a lot for a pure hitter that we thought. Heyward k's were less than a hundred but his homers were way down, so how do we approach that?

I do think BJ will be better next year, just a feeling I have unless someone takes him which I would gladly do. I would eat CJ contract and give him away, I do not like him at all.

If an AL team want Gattis, ship him please. He doesn't adjust enough for me.


If most our pitchers need tommy john, why not our YNOT creator/leader?

[zitothebrave]

My opinion is simple, if we bring Frediot back, we don't care about winning. If we don't care about winning, we won't win. Maybe we'll sneak into the playoffs, then we'lll be bounced from a 1 game series because he did something dumb like start a veteran because it's high pressure instead of Julio or Wood.

[cajunrevenge]

People are being over dramatic about Fredi coming back. We will never have a manager who manages like we want him to.

[The Chosen One]

My opinion is simple, if we bring Frediot back, we don't care about winning. If we don't care about winning, we won't win. Maybe we'll sneak into the playoffs, then we'lll be bounced from a 1 game series because he did something dumb like start a veteran because it's high pressure instead of Julio or Wood.

He started Medlen in the WC game in 2012 over Hudson and Game 1 of the NLDS last year. Minor after him. Ironically the game we should've won was the one Garcia pitched. That was a ballsy move that actually paid off but I didn't see anybody giving him credit for that either.

[Dalyn]

People are being over dramatic about Fredi coming back. We will never have a manager who manages like we want him to.

We used to. At least for me.

[Runnin]

People are being over dramatic about Fredi coming back. We will never have a manager who manages like we want him to.
Be careful not to condemn alone that which please all.

[CyYoung31]

We used to. At least for me.

Word.

[cajunrevenge]

Bobby did the same **** he just had a magic touch that turned players into gold.

[keithlaw]

Bobby did the same **** he just had a magic touch that turned players into gold.

To be honest Bobby was a much worse tactical manager than Fredi. Fredi makes dumb lineups, but hes never done anything as dumb as giving Garrett Anderson 550 PA.

[AerchAngel]

some part of me don't mind Fredi (BJ in the lineup at leadoff had to come from higher ups and not his decision, there is no other way to explain it and the fact that C "K or DP" J was in there a lot), but our hitting coaches have to go. Freeman has no business striking out almost 150 times or Simmons popping up or hitting into DP's at a astounding rate. No player adjusted throughout the year.

They sat on their ass and collected a paycheck. Hell, some of you on here can do better than them.

[zitothebrave]

To be honest Bobby was a much worse tactical manager than Fredi. Fredi makes dumb lineups, but hes never done anything as dumb as giving Garrett Anderson 550 PA.

BObby made some very questionable moves. But he won, and won a lot. I don't think Fredi takes the 2004 or 2005 Braves to the postseason. Bobby was masterful in his maximization that season. His flaw was he bought into the baseball tropes way too often. Veterans perform in the clutch, some guys are "professional hitters" and so on so forth. Anderson was a trainwreck, didn't hit enough offensively and was a butcher defensively, but that 2009 team had a really ****ty OF, so I can understand why Anderson got as much PT as he did. Our OFs that year were Francouer who was traded for Church, Diaz, Anderson,and Schafer who went down and was replaced by McLouth.

My bitch with Bobby that year was the fact that when it was evident that Prado could play, that he didn't move KJ to LF. Not that Kelly was ripping the cover off the ball, but he wouldn't have been a butcher in LF and could have beena better platoon partner for Diaz.

[ESP47]

I will finish YNOT when I can type with my left hand. They botched the IV for anesthesia (Ulna nerve issues) so I am henpecking that is why I don't post. Nevermind me.

Hart bringing him back means Bobby had some say so in it meaning our hitting coaches will be back. I guess they think they can turn this around.

What do you think about it?

We need new coaches to fix Simmons and Freeman, 144 k's is a lot for a pure hitter that we thought. Heyward k's were less than a hundred but his homers were way down, so how do we approach that?

I do think BJ will be better next year, just a feeling I have unless someone takes him which I would gladly do. I would eat CJ contract and give him away, I do not like him at all.

If an AL team want Gattis, ship him please. He doesn't adjust enough for me.

Who cares of Gattis doesn't adjust enough. He hit 20+ homers with an .800+ OPS in less than 400 at bats. Where else are you going to find a catcher who does that at league minimum?

Whats your plan? Trot out Bethancourt's sub .600 OPS and then sign one of the many outstanding free agent catchers who are going to be on the market for less than a million a year?

[zitothebrave]

I never got the Trade Gattis crowd. I mean I'd trade him but he's well down on the list of guys I'd trade. Sad that I think the FO has a similar thought process. CB is the catcher of the future so lets trade one of our best players and hope CB amounts to more than Henry Blanco.

[emk418]

Ron Gardenhire was just let go. Please please please fire fredi now and hire Ron.

[CrimsonCowboy]

David O'Brien @DOBrienAJC · 39m
From our meeting with #Braves manager today, sounds like no staff changes announced until at least Wed. when Hart meets a/ Fredi & coaches

[AerchAngel]

David O'Brien @DOBrienAJC · 39m
From our meeting with #Braves manager today, sounds like no staff changes announced until at least Wed. when Hart meets a/ Fredi & coaches

I will be sitting pins and needles. Please keep Bobby Cox away from that meeting.

[cajunrevenge]

I would say getting a good hitting coach is more important than replacing Fredi.

[Heyward]

He started Medlen in the WC game in 2012 over Hudson and Game 1 of the NLDS last year. Minor after him. Ironically the game we should've won was the one Garcia pitched. That was a ballsy move that actually paid off but I didn't see anybody giving him credit for that either.

Umm Medlen was pitching out of his mind.

That was absolutely the right move to pitch Medlen in the WC game.

[Heyward]

I hope we fire Fredi, still miss the playoffs so i can see what excuses yall will make.

Firing Fredi isnt going to make a dramatic difference.

[emk418]

I will be sitting pins and needles. Please keep Bobby Cox away from that meeting.

Don't get your hopes up. There's no way Fredi is fired.

[UNCBlue012]

Umm... I like Ron Gardenhire... way more than Fredi. Come on!

[AerchAngel]

Don't get your hopes up. There's no way Fredi is fired.

They are not when Bobby is involved. It is his best friend and protege'.


That is why I said keep him away.

But as a consolation prize, I can stomach Fredi if we get rid of twins of horror...Walker and Fletcher. Seriously, what is their primary job? Whatever it was they did failed and failed miserably.

If Fredi was forced to play BJ and lead him off, or force to play CJ the K machine, force to play strUgggla because of Wren, I will give him a pass because a manager cannot manage if his boss is making him do things he doesn't want. And I believe Wren told him to do it. Everybody from this board to Baseball Tonight wonder why BJ was leading off for so long.

If he comes out and say I will manage the way I want, maybe I will put down the firehose, but I still want the horror twins gone.

[Millwood1Hitter]

They are not when Bobby is involved. It is his best friend and protege'.


That is why I said keep him away.

But as a consolation prize, I can stomach Fredi if we get rid of twins of horror...Walker and Fletcher. Seriously, what is their primary job? Whatever it was they did failed and failed miserably.

If Fredi was forced to play BJ and lead him off, or force to play CJ the K machine, force to play strUgggla because of Wren, I will give him a pass because a manager cannot manage if his boss is making him do things he doesn't want. And I believe Wren told him to do it. Everybody from this board to Baseball Tonight wonder why BJ was leading off for so long.

If he comes out and say I will manage the way I want, maybe I will put down the firehose, but I still want the horror twins gone.

Ive been one of Fredi's biggest critics but this does have some merit. Remember I threw out there when Wren was let go that he essentially forced Bobby out and bring someone in to be Wrens yes-man.

Since then it is pretty well known that Wren and Bobby were at odds, amongst others in the FO.

About 6 weeks ago the braves had a Wednesday night game on ESPN in which the announcers were talking about Fredi making the comment about more speed and run manufacturing needs to take place to win in this new era of baseball and less in the long ball. Doesn't sound anything like our roster does it? Lots of disconnect from the FO and the team on the field.

We don't know for sure, but we do know that Uggla and BJ were Wrwns to biggest and glamorous and expensive acquisitions along with Lowe, and each and everyone of those guys were out there everyday put in more prominent roles for long periods of time to straighten things out and make Wren look good.

From an organizational stand point it made sense to stick with them up to a point, but it didn't seem that there ever was a end in sight and it cost us dearly.

What if Fredi was under instruction to not pitch a valuable long term piece multiple innings in an elimination game?

We don't know, but we do know is there seemed to be a lot of tension and disconnect within this organization the past few years.

And as far as JS comment about seeing things starting to deteriorate 3 years ago? I think this is based that a good portion of the brass (advanced scouts, JS, etc) were not on board with the BJ signing but let Wren go against majority and make his own bed. He tried to become a genius but the move failed him miserably.

I mean think about it. An organization like the Braves and their financial position can't take risks like that and tie up that much in a high risk investment especially considering we were already strapped with another hindering contract in Uggla. I betcha a good percentage of upper management was more in favor of a role player acquisition like Pagan, span, Victorino to fill a need.

[AerchAngel]

Ive been one of Fredi's biggest critics but this does have some merit. Remember I threw out there when Wren was let go that he essentially forced Bobby out and bring someone in to be Wrens yes-man.

Since then it is pretty well known that Wren and Bobby were at odds, amongst others in the FO.

About 6 weeks ago the braves had a Wednesday night game on ESPN in which the announcers were talking about Fredi making the comment about more speed and run manufacturing needs to take place to win in this new era of baseball and less in the long ball. Doesn't sound anything like our roster does it? Lots of disconnect from the FO and the team on the field.

We don't know for sure, but we do know that Uggla and BJ were Wrwns to biggest and glamorous and expensive acquisitions along with Lowe, and each and everyone of those guys were out there everyday put in more prominent roles for long periods of time to straighten things out and make Wren look good.

From an organizational stand point it made sense to stick with them up to a point, but it didn't seem that there ever was a end in sight and it cost us dearly.

What if Fredi was under instruction to not pitch a valuable long term piece multiple innings in an elimination game?

We don't know, but we do know is there seemed to be a lot of tension and disconnect within this organization the past few years.

And as far as JS comment about seeing things starting to deteriorate 3 years ago? I think this is based that a good portion of the brass (advanced scouts, JS, etc) were not on board with the BJ signing but let Wren go against majority and make his own bed. He tried to become a genius but the move failed him miserably.

I mean think about it. An organization like the Braves and their financial position can't take risks like that and tie up that much in a high risk investment especially considering we were already strapped with another hindering contract in Uggla. I betcha a good percentage of pure management was more in favor of a role player acquisition like Pagan, span, Victorino to fill a need.

Wow, one of the best posts in a while. I can only henpeck. I had major emergency hernia (almost ruptured) surgery and because of the anesthesia I have Cubital Tunnel Syndrome, which renders my left hand basically useless when typing. I wanted to type something what you did because I agree with everything you said and it make sense.

oh I am right handed and that is why I wanted it done on the left because this is known to happen. good call by me or i would be in a world of hurt right now. Having no use of one hand and being a computer program would be total hell at work.

[jcc03004]

I will finish YNOT when I can type with my left hand. They botched the IV for anesthesia (Ulna nerve issues) so I am henpecking that is why I don't post. Nevermind me.

Hart bringing him back means Bobby had some say so in it meaning our hitting coaches will be back. I guess they think they can turn this around.

What do you think about it?

We need new coaches to fix Simmons and Freeman, 144 k's is a lot for a pure hitter that we thought. Heyward k's were less than a hundred but his homers were way down, so how do we approach that?

I do think BJ will be better next year, just a feeling I have unless someone takes him which I would gladly do. I would eat CJ contract and give him away, I do not like him at all.

If an AL team want Gattis, ship him please. He doesn't adjust enough for me.

Last I knew Freemen was not one of our problems. Maybe I'm mistaken

[AerchAngel]

Last I knew Freemen was not one of our problems. Maybe I'm mistaken

144 k's is too much for a hitter of his caliber is all I am saying. He swung at a lot of bad pitches.

[VirginiaBrave]

BObby made some very questionable moves. But he won, and won a lot. I don't think Fredi takes the 2004 or 2005 Braves to the postseason. Bobby was masterful in his maximization that season. His flaw was he bought into the baseball tropes way too often. Veterans perform in the clutch, some guys are "professional hitters" and so on so forth. Anderson was a trainwreck, didn't hit enough offensively and was a butcher defensively, but that 2009 team had a really ****ty OF, so I can understand why Anderson got as much PT as he did. Our OFs that year were Francouer who was traded for Church, Diaz, Anderson,and Schafer who went down and was replaced by McLouth.

My bitch with Bobby that year was the fact that when it was evident that Prado could play, that he didn't move KJ to LF. Not that Kelly was ripping the cover off the ball, but he wouldn't have been a butcher in LF and could have beena better platoon partner for Diaz.

He had a team most of those years that didn't need a manager and was stocked with Hall of Famers and A+++ talent to be fair...

[50PoundHead]

Umm... I like Ron Gardenhire... way more than Fredi. Come on!

Was on the road all day and didn't listen to local radio and was shocked when I got home this evening and found out the Twins had fired Gardenhire. Living in Minnesota, I follow the Twins fairly closely and I was surprised they fired him. If they were going to fire him, I thought they would have done it after the second 90-loss season. I suppose the beef is they did go out and get him a couple of pitchers (Nolasco and Hughes) and things didn't get better.

Gardenhire gets a lot out of second-level players, but he's not particularly good with younger players (which the Twins are going to be for the next couple of seasons). Decent with the bullpen. Uses the whole bench. Makes Bobby Cox look like a MENSA member by comparison when he talks. If Bobby is old school, Gardy is one-room school house.

[AerchAngel]

Was on the road all day and didn't listen to local radio and was shocked when I got home this evening and found out the Twins had fired Gardenhire. Living in Minnesota, I follow the Twins fairly closely and I was surprised they fired him. If they were going to fire him, I thought they would have done it after the second 90-loss season. I suppose the beef is they did go out and get him a couple of pitchers (Nolasco and Hughes) and things didn't get better.

Gardenhire gets a lot out of second-level players, but he's not particularly good with younger players (which the Twins are going to be for the next couple of seasons). Decent with the bullpen. Uses the whole bench. Makes Bobby Cox look like a MENSA member by comparison when he talks. If Bobby is old school, Gardy is one-room school house.

I get all the Twins broadcast obliviously being in western Wisconsin and heard the radio conference today. Gardenhire did not like getting fired, you can hear it in his voice but he did respectively went through the press conference like a veteran.

Great manager like you said of veterans, but he would actually eat up our youngsters after what I heard today. He is real old school, WORST than Bobby, like 500 said. Being the 2nd youngest team in the majors with him would be a disaster. We need a younger manager that relates and know how to deal with our talent.

Trammel Manager ( I think combine of Gibson grit and smoothing it out he would be okay)
Pendleton/Perez would not be a bad choice either. Pendleton doesn't take crap out of anyone and we seen that plenty of times and he is well respected.



Batting coach - Julio Franco....I have no doubt he would be awesome at this. Hell he could have played for us and hit better than the schit we seen this year at 75 years old (his real age).

[zitothebrave]

Ron Gardenhire was just let go. Please please please fire fredi now and hire Ron.

Ron Gardenhire stinks.

[zitothebrave]

`
I will be sitting pins and needles. Please keep Bobby Cox away from that meeting.

I'll save you the butt pain. We'll fire hitting coaches, maybe sacrifice a lamb or 2 otherwise in the running department, keep McDowell and keep Fredi. If we don't keep Fredi I'll be shocked. When they fired Wren they seemed to be sending a clear message, don't touch Bobby's boy. JS basically treated Wren like Fredo.

[NinersSBChamps]

Why is that all these ex-Twins players seem perform better when they leave? I am from there and I follow them a bit. Morneau, Cuddyer, Span, and Revere are just some recent players who come to mind. Granted Morneau is a former MVP candidate and had concussion issues to end his time in Minnesota, so I get that one.

[VirginiaBrave]

I never got the Trade Gattis crowd. I mean I'd trade him but he's well down on the list of guys I'd trade. Sad that I think the FO has a similar thought process. CB is the catcher of the future so lets trade one of our best players and hope CB amounts to more than Henry Blanco.

Could it be that some of us just don't like the guy? See him as the second coming of Bob Horner and would rather see him sitting 1/3 of the year on someone else's DL than ours? Get what you can for him while you can. Another injury plagued year and will be lucky to get marginal prospects for him.

[50PoundHead]

Why is that all these ex-Twins players seem perform better when they leave? I am from there and I follow them a bit. Morneau, Cuddyer, Span, and Revere are just some recent players who come to mind. Granted Morneau is a former MVP candidate and had concussion issues to end his time in Minnesota, so I get that one.

I think Cuddyer got a boost from playing at Coors, but all the guys you mention had decent seasons in Minnesota. Revere is likely seeing some normal progression because he was relatively young when he was traded, but none of these guys is way above their career norm since leaving Minnesota. Gardy did screw around with guys though, especially younger players.

[bravesnumberone]

I like Gardenhire; don't think he'd be the right fit for our team. Sounds like he may get a front office job with the Twins if he wants it.

[50PoundHead]

I like Gardenhire; don't think he'd be the right fit for our team. Sounds like he may get a front office job with the Twins if he wants it.

Could be. I'm sure he's really disappointed he couldn't get the team to play better than they did. Twins' long-time obsession with pitch-to-contact over power arms has shown up a bit as performance has slipped. Thing is, they have some power arms coming up and a potential nucleus in Buxton and Sano if they both develop. If things fall together, they may not be all that far away.

[zitothebrave]

The twins haven't had much talent around lately. That's been their biggest problem.

That being said, Phil Hughes has been a beast this year,

[AerchAngel]

The twins haven't had much talent around lately. That's been their biggest problem.

That being said, Phil Hughes has been a beast this year,

No pressure unlike the Yank-mees.

[AerchAngel]

`

I'll save you the butt pain. We'll fire hitting coaches, maybe sacrifice a lamb or 2 otherwise in the running department, keep McDowell and keep Fredi. If we don't keep Fredi I'll be shocked. When they fired Wren they seemed to be sending a clear message, don't touch Bobby's boy. JS basically treated Wren like Fredo.


Minimum, fire the horror twins. I can stomach Fredi if that was the main issue. They collected a paycheck to sit on their ass and spit sunflower seeds.

[mfree80]

Could it be that some of us just don't like the guy? See him as the second coming of Bob Horner and would rather see him sitting 1/3 of the year on someone else's DL than ours? Get what you can for him while you can. Another injury plagued year and will be lucky to get marginal prospects for him.

This is about Gattis. Not really a lot to get. I can see both arguments, but we have really beaten this to death.

Gattis is a great hitter for a Catcher and over the course of the season puts up good numbers on a hitting challenged team... versus:

Gattis is a weak defender, has no position, could bring in a haul in a trade, and can't play everyday. He is also a really big guy, and big guys do not age well when they have to get in and out of a crouch 150 times per game day after day.

I think we all understand the argument. Both opinions have merit.

[Dalyn]

Trading Gattis is like trying to fix it where someone with no legs can run and the first thing you do is amputate their right arm.

[BlackwaterPark]

Also it seems in the second half, Gattis' power disappears due to catching presumably.

[Dalyn]

Also it seems in the second half, Gattis' power disappears due to catching presumably.

That is true. It's why I wouldn't mind us trading Bethancourt if we got someone like Jaso to get some regular starts as backup vs RHP.

[BlackwaterPark]

That is true. It's why I wouldn't mind us trading Bethancourt if we got someone like Jaso to get some regular starts as backup vs RHP.

Honestly, I love Gattis, but would prefer to see Bethancourt play.

[Millwood1Hitter]

I think the interesting dynamic in all of this with Hart in charge for the interim (and in the short-term if he decides to take the job in the short term or as in advisory role), is how he truely evaluates Fredi as a manager and how he handles the situation going forward. The questions that need to be answered is just how much have some of the decesions that have been made over the past few years on the baseball field been influenced by a egotistical control freak in charge.

Again I will repeat myself that I've been one of Fredi's biggest critics but if the organization had some internal workings and a sour attitude and lack of communication amongst those in charge, then maybe Fredi isn't as bad as it seem, but there needs to be some explaning done.

I've considered Fredi to be a manager much in the mold of a Mike Hargrove, a nice human being who can win some games with talent but isn't tough enough or strong enough to be a leader. Basically the team needs to be in cruise control and can win on its own, and that's what Cleveland had with one of the all-time dynamic offenses. The interesting thing in all of this is that Hart had Hargrove as his guy in charge for many of his years in Cleveland, although it wasn't necessarily a great working relationship. They got a long but many inside the organization, Hart included, thought that those teams during that era should have accomplished more than 2 World Series and 0 rings. Many will point to the fact that Hart never acquired or gave Hargrove a front line starter to matchup against a Maddux, Johnson, Cone, Brown, etc and many of the rotations were patched with middle of the rotation type veterans like Nagy, Burba, Hershisher, and Dennis Martinez. They really didn't have a legit #1 guy until Bartolo Colon came on late in the decade, but by that time their window was closed despite still winning a lot of games and winning the AL Central. Ultimately it all came to a head when Hart made the decesion to let Hargrove go after a collapse against the Red Sox in the playoffs, will Fredi have the same fate? We will find out.

Hart and Schueholz were basically the same GM, and interchangeable with the exception that JS had a pitching rich organization that was loaded with HOF starting pitching and great pitching depth but failed miserably at times to put together a complete team and fill holes and put together a complete roster with competant hitters that lead to only one WS title. Hart on the other hand was on the other end of the spectrum, he acquired and built a team around a dynamic offense with HOF caliber players up and down the lineup, but failed to fill the needs and acquire a frontline starter to matchup against the other great teams off that era.

[Deester11]

That is true. It's why I wouldn't mind us trading Bethancourt if we got someone like Jaso to get some regular starts as backup vs RHP.
Sorry, I'm a Gattis fan, but Bethancourt showed more than enough to me that says if he can get us back something of significance....I trade him without fail.

[Dalyn]

Sorry, I'm a Gattis fan, but Bethancourt showed more than enough to me that says if he can get us back something of significance....I trade him without fail.

If you replace Gattis with Bethancourt, you might as well punt the offense for another season.

[Hudson2]

Gattis to me is not a long term answer at catcher. He's what 27? And he's a big dude. He's not gonna age well at all. I really like Gattis but no way do I trade Bethancourt.

[Dalyn]

Gattis to me is not a long term answer at catcher. He's what 27? And he's a big dude. He's not gonna age well at all. I really like Gattis but no way do I trade Bethancourt.

We need him one more year at least.

[thewupk]

Gattis to me is not a long term answer at catcher. He's what 27? And he's a big dude. He's not gonna age well at all. I really like Gattis but no way do I trade Bethancourt.

We have Gattis in his prime years for cheap and he hasn't had a ton of time catching due to being out of baseball. He will likely crash fast once he hits 30 but that is a couple of years away. And replacing a 800+ OPS bat for sub 600 OPS bat will only make this team worse. Bethancourt has to hit or he's going to be nothing but a backup. Especially on a team that already features horrendous offense.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I hope we fire Fredi, still miss the playoffs so i can see what excuses yall will make.

Firing Fredi isnt going to make a dramatic difference.

What's funny is the people screaming the loudest have argued that managers make minimal impact on games in the past. Now they think making a change is going to turn us into World Series contenders. The bigger issue is the poorly built roster, not how the manager uses them.

I don't care what we do to be honest, I doubt firing the manager is going to solve our problems though.

[AerchAngel]

One down, one to go on the paycheck receiving, sitting on their ass spitting seeds and not doing schit twins.

[AerchAngel]

We have Gattis in his prime years for cheap and he hasn't had a ton of time catching due to being out of baseball. He will likely crash fast once he hits 30 but that is a couple of years away. And replacing a 800+ OPS bat for sub 600 OPS bat will only make this team worse. Bethancourt has to hit or he's going to be nothing but a backup. Especially on a team that already features horrendous offense.

Its not that. Gattis after Heyward is my fav player, but after his injury he basically sucked ass. It seems catching catches up to him and doesn't have the stamina. I hoped our idiot manager in charge would give him some time in LF and move JU to right and JH to center because of the SVOD in center but no, Wren wanted SVOD to play and leadoff so he hoped he could ressurect his terrible career and make him look good...but he didn't.

Gattis cannot catch more than half a year. Carrying 260 pounds behind the plate is a chore, ask Zito fat ass. He is 6'4" or 5 and weighs about the same weight and a catcher, he could tell you.

[KB21]

What's funny is the people screaming the loudest have argued that managers make minimal impact on games in the past. Now they think making a change is going to turn us into World Series contenders. The bigger issue is the poorly built roster, not how the manager uses them.

I don't care what we do to be honest, I doubt firing the manager is going to solve our problems though.

This is the reason Frank Wren was fired. I agree. Some have turned this issue into a managerial issue because they simply do not like Fredi for one reason or another and refuse to compare him to his peers who are all similar to a degree. It's not a managerial issue. The roster that was put together was done so poorly. Yes, the team had some talent, but the talent didn't fit. There were too many swing and miss players in the line up and not enough guys who could get on base and create offense with their speed and base running ability. Because of this, the Braves were a team that had to rely on the long ball to succeed. That worked last year when they won 94 games or so. This year, when the power dropped, it didn't work. Finding a balance on the roster was not done. Also, the bench was non-existent this year. I also think we had upper management people demanding that BJ Upton play, so I don't think Fredi had much of a choice in this.

[AerchAngel]

This is the reason Frank Wren was fired. I agree. Some have turned this issue into a managerial issue because they simply do not like Fredi for one reason or another and refuse to compare him to his peers who are all similar to a degree. It's not a managerial issue. The roster that was put together was done so poorly. Yes, the team had some talent, but the talent didn't fit. There were too many swing and miss players in the line up and not enough guys who could get on base and create offense with their speed and base running ability. Because of this, the Braves were a team that had to rely on the long ball to succeed. That worked last year when they won 94 games or so. This year, when the power dropped, it didn't work. Finding a balance on the roster was not done. Also, the bench was non-existent this year. I also think we had upper management people demanding that BJ Upton play, so I don't think Fredi had much of a choice in this.


Ding ding ding. I remember saying this and got ran from the forum.

That is why I change my tune on Fredi. He was a puppet, a marionette and was force to do this.

Now his hitting coaches, they sat on their ass and did nothing, hell we got worse. SWUNG AT EVERYTHING. Crap in the dirt, some times 10 feet in front of the plate or 3 foot outside, or scraping dirt (CJ k's) but did we see adjustments, I will laugh until the morning on that, adjustments, a foreign word to our supposed, sitting on their ass hitting coaches collecting a paycheck probably laughing at CJ and Simba swinging at **** we wouldn't swing at and then wait till Friday and collect their check knowing Wren will still pay them.

Enough of them. One twin is gone and I hope the other will follow. I will give Fredi a chance because I believe Fredi was not the one in charge for this crap for most of the season, he as a yes man and I think Hart will tell him to do what he needs to do.

[thewupk]

Its not that. Gattis after Heyward is my fav player, but after his injury he basically sucked ass. It seems catching catches up to him and doesn't have the stamina. I hoped our idiot manager in charge would give him some time in LF and move JU to right and JH to center because of the SVOD in center but no, Wren wanted SVOD to play and leadoff so he hoped he could ressurect his terrible career and make him look good...but he didn't.

Gattis cannot catch more than half a year. Carrying 260 pounds behind the plate is a chore, ask Zito fat ass. He is 6'4" or 5 and weighs about the same weight and a catcher, he could tell you.

I agree with that regarding Gattis. Which is why I thought it was smart that he didn't catch a lot to start last year. It kept him rested. I think the injury is what caused him issues in the 2nd half and not the everyday issues of catching all the time. Of course you could argue that catching that much caused him to get injured. Still, Gattis can hit and replacing him with someone who can't hit won't make this team better.

Regarding Fredi. I have no huge issues with him. It's not his fault that CJ, BJ, and Uggla were complete disasters and that Simmons regressed a lot as a hitter. We had 4 spots for most of the year that were among the worst in MLB in hitting at their positions. No manager can overcome that. Now the only issue I had with him were the times that BJ and Simmons hit high in the order. That was inexcusable and likely cost the team 2-3 games over the course of the year. Now with the way the season ended that didn't matter but before the collapse it could of had a huge impact.

I don't think managers have a huge impact on a baseball team. Bullpen usage and lineup construction matter but only so much. Talent on the field is what does it. Still Fredi has had two huge September collapses in 4 years and whether that's his fault or not he is still going to get blamed for it and I can see wanting to get someone else in here.

[jason27nc]

This is the reason Frank Wren was fired. I agree. Some have turned this issue into a managerial issue because they simply do not like Fredi for one reason or another and refuse to compare him to his peers who are all similar to a degree. It's not a managerial issue. The roster that was put together was done so poorly. Yes, the team had some talent, but the talent didn't fit. There were too many swing and miss players in the line up and not enough guys who could get on base and create offense with their speed and base running ability. Because of this, the Braves were a team that had to rely on the long ball to succeed. That worked last year when they won 94 games or so. This year, when the power dropped, it didn't work. Finding a balance on the roster was not done. Also, the bench was non-existent this year. I also think we had upper management people demanding that BJ Upton play, so I don't think Fredi had much of a choice in this.

It's funny that the same roster all of you say is so flawed won 96 games the year before. Also No one is arguing that players like Uggla and Bj needed to go or that they pretty much sucked. Fredi screwed the pooch last year in the playoffs when he didn't bring in Kimbrel. I thought he did do a good job last year overall though at setting his lineup with Heyward followed by Justin and Freeman. This is the thing that drives me the most crazy this year. We never seen that line up in 162 games. Why? Explain to me why he felt Bj should leadoff to start the season and from there no one knew who would bat where the rest of the season. I believe in putting someone somewhere and leaving them there as long as possible to give them the opportunity to produce at their maximum potential. We all know Bj will never reach that because of lack of effort. That guy should have been benched so many times for not hustling it isn't even funny. Bobby would never have let that happen in his days. ( Look back to Andrew Jones) I don't think this roster is as bad as some of you think. And Matt, why do we need a manager at all if it don't matter how he uses his players?

[The Chosen One]

The thing about Andruw was Bobby disciplined him before he made his millions. Andruw was still a young kid learning the game and living with Bobby's actual house.

Bj is an 8 year veteran player with his contract guaranteed. Harder to discipline a guy like that in addition to having Wren pressuring you to play his investment.

[AerchAngel]

The thing about Andruw was Bobby disciplined him before he made his millions. Andruw was still a young kid learning the game and living with Bobby's actual house.

Bj is an 8 year veteran player with his contract guaranteed. Harder to discipline a guy like that in addition to having Wren pressuring you to play his investment.

wow, another one that sees the light.

Now we see why he is gone. Warming up to keeping Fredi because I believe Wren managed this team, not Fredi.

[The Chosen One]

I always was under the assumption Wren and upstairs were pressuring Fredi to continue to play BJ.

I mean Gattis in left and Elliott Johnson make more sense being Fredi's moves than Wren.

[zitothebrave]

What's funny is the people screaming the loudest have argued that managers make minimal impact on games in the past. Now they think making a change is going to turn us into World Series contenders. The bigger issue is the poorly built roster, not how the manager uses them.

I don't care what we do to be honest, I doubt firing the manager is going to solve our problems though.

Great and terrible managers have that. Talent trumps all in the end. An idiot can run a team like the Dodgers and guide them to the playoffs. Your deviation comes from when you have a team like the Giants, who have 1 hitter on par with Justin/Fredi, 1 on par with Gattis and one a bit ahead of Jason, and a much weaker starting pitching, and they win 9 games more than us. could it be random luck? Entirely possible, but that drastic of a luck difference is supposed to normalize over 162 games. Giants composed a very good team with only 1 superstar (Posey) and we couldn't do it when we have 3 (2 offensive 1 combo offensive and defensive) that says a lot about our manager JMO.

[gtcway]

wow, another one that sees the light.

Now we see why he is gone. Warming up to keeping Fredi because I believe Wren managed this team, not Fredi.

If that's indeed the case, I'm okay with Fredi coming back next year. I never thought he was a top manager, but up until this year, I never really felt strongly for or against him.

[zitothebrave]

If Fredi didn't have the balls to take control of his team from Wren why woudl you want him back to be a puppet again?

[bravesnumberone]

The bigger question is this.

If Wren really was "forcing" Fredi to play the bastard, why did it take so long for the big boys to throw down on Wren?

[50PoundHead]

wow, another one that sees the light.

Now we see why he is gone. Warming up to keeping Fredi because I believe Wren managed this team, not Fredi.

I've thought that was indeed a possibility with both Uggla and M. Upton. I wouldn't necessarily keep Fredi around, but I had a feeling all year that Fredi was on a very tight leash as to who should be on the field.

[thewupk]

If Fredi didn't have the balls to take control of his team from Wren why woudl you want him back to be a puppet again?

Maybe Hart or whoever runs the ship won't put those restrictions on him?

[thewupk]

The bigger question is this.

If Wren really was "forcing" Fredi to play the bastard, why did it take so long for the big boys to throw down on Wren?


He wasn't going to get canned during the season especially after what the team has done the last few years and where we were in in the season until the last 5 weeks or so. That and it's the Braves style to wait until the season is over.

[zitothebrave]

Maybe Hart or whoever runs the ship won't put those restrictions on him?

I severely doubt that. If Wren was playing puppet master then may be Fredi is entirely too incompetent.

[Dalyn]

The bigger question is this.

If Wren really was "forcing" Fredi to play the bastard, why did it take so long for the big boys to throw down on Wren?

And why did we still get the ****ty lineups after they fired Wren?

[zitothebrave]

And why did we still get the ****ty lineups after they fired Wren?

Or the other crap that kept happening.

[thewupk]

I severely doubt that. If Wren was playing puppet master then may be Fredi is entirely too incompetent.

Who knows. It honestly doesn't matter who was playing with the team we had. We have garbage hitters.

[zitothebrave]

I wouldn't call Freddie, Jason Gattis, or Justin garbage. Sure SImmons, Lossman, and Johnson sucked. And Uggla was a disaster, but we replaced him with adequate 2B.

[thewupk]

I wouldn't call Freddie, Jason Gattis, or Justin garbage. Sure SImmons, Lossman, and Johnson sucked. And Uggla was a disaster, but we replaced him with adequate 2B.

La Stella was about average. Nothing wrong with that. And it's not the fact that Simmons, BJ, CJ, and for half the year Uggla were bad. They were worst at their position bad.

[emk418]

La Stella was about average. Nothing wrong with that. And it's not the fact that Simmons, BJ, CJ, and for half the year Uggla were bad. They were worst at their position bad.

Exactly..nothing wrong with average. If we got average production out of 2B, SS, 3B, CF we make the playoffs.

[thewupk]

Exactly..nothing wrong with average. If we got average production out of 2B, SS, 3B, CF we make the playoffs.

Even below average production would be fine. Instead we got a steaming pile of ****.

[Heyward]

Great and terrible managers have that. Talent trumps all in the end. An idiot can run a team like the Dodgers and guide them to the playoffs. Your deviation comes from when you have a team like the Giants, who have 1 hitter on par with Justin/Fredi, 1 on par with Gattis and one a bit ahead of Jason, and a much weaker starting pitching, and they win 9 games more than us. could it be random luck? Entirely possible, but that drastic of a luck difference is supposed to normalize over 162 games. Giants composed a very good team with only 1 superstar (Posey) and we couldn't do it when we have 3 (2 offensive 1 combo offensive and defensive) that says a lot about our manager JMO.

Giants have a pretty solid lineup.

Posey, Belt, 2B, Crawford, Panda, Morse, Pagan/Blanco, Pence is MILES better than our lineup.

[zitothebrave]

Belt and Sandoval had slightly above average production for their positions, and I could go on.

What made the Giants offense better was that they limited damage from turds, like Arias and Hicks.