Braves Trade Heyward, Walden to Cardinals for Miller and Tyrell Jenkins

[MadduxFanII]

From the team's official Twitter account (https://twitter.com/Braves/status/534392119340056577):


The #Braves have acquired RHP Shelby Miller and RHP Tyrell Jenkins from the Cardinals in exchange for OF Jason Heyward and RHP Jordan Walden

I think we all know that Heyward is going to explode in St. Louis next year.

[The Chosen One]

****ING BITCH.

[goldfly]

**** this team and organization


so ****ing pissed off

[The Chosen One]

FRANK WREN COME BACK. PLEASE.

[Dalyn]

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af244/FiercelyNormal/H50/Stunned.gif

[MadduxFanII]

I don't know anything about Tyrell Jenkins beyond what's in his B-Ref page. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jenkin001tyr) And what's in his B-Ref page is really, really unimpressive.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Damn that was quick.

[JohnAdcox]

Just call me Jason Heyward, because moves like this and the move to Cobb County are making me seriously question my love of baseball.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Ummmm.....that's all we're getting? Really? Cmon wake up now....this better be a bad nightmare.

[Prikichi]

No way! I am beyond pissed right now!!! FCK YOU JOHN HART!

[bravesnumberone]

LMAO. Everyone that outright celebrated Wren being fired deserves this.

[Dalyn]

Please tell me they also took BJ and his contract or something. This is awful.

[Prikichi]

I want wren back:(

[jsebe10]

Damn.... Not Walden

I think we are officially in rebuild mode...Think St Louis will start throwing out money to lock up Heyward?

[Dalyn]

LMAO. Everyone that outright celebrated Wren being fired deserves this.

One or two posters celebrated Wren getting fired. Most of us said he was getting scapegoated HARD.

[NYCBrave]

Can someone break this trade down and explain how the value make sense?

[Carp]

Could this be our JD Drew for Adam Wainwright? Certainly hope so. I hate the Cards already. Really don't want to see Heyward play there for 10 yrs.

[MadduxFanII]

I certainly hope that Walden's inclusion in this was about inching St. Louis to the point where they'd give up Miller and not about getting Jenkins, because if it was the latter I'd rather we had just held on to Jordan for a later deal.

[Hawk]

Yeah, **** this ****.

[gcbraves]

I thought one of the reasons Seitzer was hired was to bring out the potential with Jason...wtf?

[nsacpi]

Ummmm.....that's all we're getting? Really? Cmon wake up now....this better be a bad nightmare.

Sets us up really nicely for an "exciting young contending team" in 2017 doesn't it. What a moronically bad trade.

[zitothebrave]

Lol.

Terrible trade after Terrible trade. Cardinals have the bread to keep Jason too. Welcome to another 5 years or so of mediocrity. Pathetic really. And if Miller winds up being what he can be, we won't be able to keep him long term either.He's a FA after 2018 and if he's legit, And I think everyone is gonna wind up real mad when they see what Jason extends for in St. Louis. We're being fed lies from our FO.

While Miller is young, he would have been our WORST starting pitcher last year in terms of FIP. Even worse than Minor. So we trade our best position player to add someoen who may not be more than our 4 starter? Bunch of ****ing losers. No wonder they stood by Fredi who's a bigger loser. This is the dumbest move I think the Braves have made in my lifetime, letting Jason leave the organization.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Could this be our JD Drew for Adam Wainwright? Certainly hope so. I hate the Cards already. Really don't want to see Heyward play there for 10 yrs.

Hope so, but have my doubts....difference is I think Heyward finally realizes his potential in St. Louis (much like Drew did here), and most likely they will keep him long term unlike Drew here...so probably not a good comparison.

[zitothebrave]

Can someone break this trade down and explain how the value make sense?

It makes sense cause maybe in the 4 years that we have Miller he can maybe exceed the 6+ WAR we should have gotten from Jason and Walden. ****ing absurd.

[gcbraves]

Whoever made the joke last week about giving the Cards Heyward since we gave them Wainwright should be banned for life, or at least never allowed to make a joke on this board ever again.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Sets us up really nicely for an "exciting young contending team" in 2017 doesn't it. What a moronically bad trade.

Well I thought, and we should have acquired a lot more than what we did. This is just bad, really bad. Like Millwood for Estrada bad....economics of baseball stink. FU JS & JH

[Prikichi]

I'm not even sure I want to be a braves fan anymore. Feels like Hart just punched me in the gut.

[nsacpi]

The thing to keep in mind is that this trade was done in the midst of a nice "collegial" atmosphere in the front office. It marks the return of doing things the Braves way. Happy days!!

[Carp]

Cards will have stiff competition to sign him long term. Namely from the yanks and BoSox. Pretty clear Heyward wants to go to FA. Unless the Cards are offering 200 million this very minute, it's hard to imagine Heyward signing an extension.

[Hawk]

I feel robbed of the ability to enjoy baseball in 2015.

[VirginiaBrave]

The rebuild is on. But you can be damn sure the Braves knew they could not sign him. He'll be in NYC come 2016.

[zitothebrave]

BTW my apathy for the Braves is coming close to my apathy towards the NFL. This team waxes on and on about loyalty and the Braves way, and cuts loose leaders. not just players, but leaders. Hopefully this works out and Miller realizes his potential, but **** it's getting really hard to root for a team who doesn't reward people for doing good work.

[Millwood1Hitter]

:fredi:

[Dalyn]

Walden is worth more than Jenkins. So you are telling me Shelby Miller is worth more than Heyward? What a ****ing joke.

[MadduxFanII]

I'm going to be really ****ing pissed if we start hearing dark intimations about Heyward's character and unreasonable contract demands through DOB and Bowman. I mean really pissed.

[zitothebrave]

The rebuild is on. But you can be damn sure the Braves knew they could not sign him. He'll be in NYC come 2016.

Maybe, but I bet he would have signed here for a deal if we didn't move him. Now that ship has sailed, hopefully we're not dumb to let Justin go, if we do might as well trade Freddie too cause **** it we're gonna suck for 5+ years and by then he'll be on the downswing of his career.

[emk418]

Wow I need to digest this a bit. Getting past the shock of Heyward for a minute, Shelby Miller is a potential front line SP with years of control and has already proven to be very effective. Tyrell Jenkins is a hell of a pitching prospect and young. Still needs time to develop though.

I've got to say....this is a pretty good haul for 1 year of Heyward.

[BlackwaterPark]

**** this

[Hawk]

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
Think still possible #Braves trade J.Upton and continue to look for salary dump of BJ Upton. New GM Hart thinking about team for new stadium

[yeezus]

terrible terrible terrible terrible **** this organization.

[Millwood1Hitter]

I heard that we have interest in a high upside arm that might be available in the Mexican leagues, and are willing to part with Freeman to acquire him along with a token of appreciation for letting use have Julio Franco in 2001-2002.

[jpx7]

Lol.

^^^

[Dalyn]

I'm going to be really ****ing pissed if we start hearing dark intimations about Heyward's character and unreasonable contract demands through DOB and Bowman. I mean really pissed.

Oh, you KNOW that is coming. They'll mention his problems with BJ and how it was actually Heyward being a hater and not BJ being a bucket of suck.

[Dalyn]

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
Think still possible #Braves trade J.Upton and continue to look for salary dump of BJ Upton. New GM Hart thinking about team for new stadium

The only way any of this bull**** could be defended is if we win the World Series in 2017 and 2018. We'll see.

[PurpleBrave]

I don't know anything about Tyrell Jenkins beyond what's in his B-Ref page. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jenkin001tyr) And what's in his B-Ref page is really, really unimpressive.

has a high ceiling. Was looking like a top 100 prospect then injuries struck

[zitothebrave]

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
Think still possible #Braves trade J.Upton and continue to look for salary dump of BJ Upton. New GM Hart thinking about team for new stadium

If we trade Justin I'm gonna **** a chicken. We're not gonna be good for th enew stadium, we'll be lucky to be good before 2020.

[Dalyn]

I heard that we have interest in a high upside arm that might be available in the Mexican leagues, and are willing to part with Freeman to acquire him along with a token of appreciation for letting use have Julio Franco in 2001-2002.

No. Freeman is whit--I mean a good teammate and a leader.

[NinersSBChamps]

lol.

What makes this deal even more awesome is that Shelby was yanked from the starting rotation this past season.

[Hawk]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
Now that the #braves have traded Heyward, Justin Upton could be next, with #Mariners a strong suitor.

[jpx7]

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
Think still possible #Braves trade J.Upton and continue to look for salary dump of BJ Upton. New GM Hart thinking about team for new stadium

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr03/2013/9/11/1/anigif_enhanced-buzz-4799-1378876089-4_preview.gif

[PurpleBrave]

Braves acquired RHP Shelby Miller and RHP Tyrell Jenkins from the Cardinals for OF Jason Heyward and RHP Jordan Walden.
The rebuild in Atlanta is apparently underway. Miller took a step back in 2014 after a strong rookie season in 2013, but he is under contractual control through 2018 and owns a promising 3.33 ERA in 370 career major league innings. Jenkins, meanwhile, carries six years of club control. Heyward is currently scheduled to become a free agent following the 2015 campaign. Nov 17 - 12:26 PM

[NYCBrave]

I know people are upset right now, but when you calm down and the smoke clears, a few things become evident.

Let's face it, we had to move Heyward. He wasn't re-signing here, and we weren't outbidding anyone for him on a long term deal.

I know we had dreams of getting a huge Teixera like haul from someone, but Heyward has 1 year left on his deal, and he hasn't lived up to his hitting potential yet. I think we're valuing him more than the league at this point.

[MadduxFanII]

has a high ceiling. Was looking like a top 100 prospect then injuries struck

Cool, a minor league pitcher with a history of shoulder problems. That inspires a lot of confidence.

[goldfly]

**** this

**** the Atlanta Braves
**** you bobby cox
**** you john schuerholz
**** you fredi gonzalez
**** you john hart
**** your stupid old men underperforming club

[Prikichi]

I'm going to be really ****ing pissed if we start hearing dark intimations about Heyward's character and unreasonable contract demands through DOB and Bowman. I mean really pissed.

That would be the 'Braves Way' though.

[Millwood1Hitter]

So JS, Bobby, and to a certain degree Hart (although he wasn't apart of it) think it is 1988 it appears and stockpiling as many high upside arms as possible and try to build this thing from the ground up?

Except take Heyward and Upton out of this equation and where is our Gant, Justice, etc?

[Dalyn]

Justin to the Mariners? What? Is Scott Bankhead and Leon Roberts available?

[50PoundHead]

LMAO. Everyone that outright celebrated Wren being fired deserves this.

Hey, I wanted Wren gone, but the two are mutually exclusive. Who's to say Wren wouldn't have done the same thing.

[UNCBlue012]

Hahahaha what idiots. Heyward and miller swap isn't worth it alone. Throwing in walden is beyond idiotic. This team doesn't care. Simple as that. Say what too want. They don't.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Bummed, but not shocked. If the Braves tried to sign him long term, but was not successful (as I'm seeing on Twitter), then you had to trade him. I hate to see him to go and I wish we could have gotten more, but that's the nature of baseball sometimes.

I mentioned a few days ago, this could be an uncomfortable offseason. Sometimes, the changes you make are the ones that are the most uncomfortable. Brace yourselves, because I don't think the Braves are done dealing.

[PurpleBrave]

Going to be interesting to see what Heyward can do when he's not batting lead off and doesn't have oscillating fans behind him striking out 8 of 10 times

[emk418]

Walden is worth more than Jenkins. So you are telling me Shelby Miller is worth more than Heyward? What a ****ing joke.

You clearly don't know anything about Jenkins. He's taken some time to develop but he's got top of the rotation potential. I'm not saying you have to like the trade or agree with it but this is a very solid haul for one year of Heyward.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Bummed, but not shocked. If the Braves tried to sign him long term, but was not successful (as I'm seeing on Twitter), then you had to trade him. I hate to see him to go and I wish we could have gotten more, but that's the nature of baseball sometimes.

I mentioned a few days ago, this could be an uncomfortable offseason. Sometimes, the changes you make are the ones that are the most uncomfortable. Brace yourselves, because I don't think the Braves are done dealing.

They aren't and Hart warned us. One of the reason's JS wanted Hart in the primary position for now is because of this, as it would be a huge undertaking for a talented guy like JC to doing such a thing.

[Russ2dollas]

I have to believe this is because they don't think JHey will ever hit like he did as a rookie.

I don't understand trading for a number 3 starter. The Braves can crank out number 3 starters in their sleep. If you trade JHey I want a long term answer with star potential position player.

If this is the route.......fire sale. As long as you get more return than this.

I'm sure some will say it's only 1 year of JHey + draft pick compensation. That's true, but you need to get blown away to trade him this early.

[50PoundHead]

I'm going to be really ****ing pissed if we start hearing dark intimations about Heyward's character and unreasonable contract demands through DOB and Bowman. I mean really pissed.

Here's hoping that doesn't become part of the prattling that will undoubtedly accompany a move as big as this.

[gilesfan]

Think anyone with half a brain knew Heyward wasn't staying here long term and it was a risk to sign him to big dollars as it is due to his lack of offensive production.

But, Shelby Miller? Really, not like Shelby Miller and a top 10 prospect? Not Shelby Miller and Matt Carpenter? Not Shelby Miller and someone good at the very least?

I'm shocked.

[VirginiaBrave]

I heard that we have interest in a high upside arm that might be available in the Mexican leagues, and are willing to part with Freeman to acquire him along with a token of appreciation for letting use have Julio Franco in 2001-2002.

His name is Jorge Campillo...lol

[PurpleBrave]

...

[Hawk]

Zach Klein
@ZachKleinWSB
MLB source - This is just the beginning. Only players safe are top-3 pitchers, Kimbrel, Freddie and Simmons"

WTF.

[Carp]

Some positives to take away, Miller finished this yr on a roll with a 2.95 ERA over his last 12 starts. May be something clicked for him.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Bummed, but not shocked. If the Braves tried to sign him long term, but was not successful (as I'm seeing on Twitter), then you had to trade him. I hate to see him to go and I wish we could have gotten more, but that's the nature of baseball sometimes.

I mentioned a few days ago, this could be an uncomfortable offseason. Sometimes, the changes you make are the ones that are the most uncomfortable. Brace yourselves, because I don't think the Braves are done dealing.

[Dalyn]

You clearly don't know anything about Jenkins. He's taken some time to develop but he's got top of the rotation potential. I'm not saying you have to like the trade or agree with it but this is a very good haul for one year of Heyward.

How many surgeries has Jenkins had on his arm? We have no clue what we are going to get from that guy.

[nsacpi]

I know people are upset right now, but when you calm down and the smoke clears, a few things become evident.

Let's face it, we had to move Heyward. He wasn't re-signing here, and we weren't outbidding anyone for him on a long term deal.

I know we had dreams of getting a huge Teixera like haul from someone, but Heyward has 1 year left on his deal, and he hasn't lived up to his hitting potential yet. I think we're valuing him more than the league at this point.

Care to comment on what we should expect from Miller and Jenkins? I'm curious.

[thethe]

Heyward wasn't going to sign here long term. We got a high ceiling pitcher in return.

I don't see what the issue was. The real dumb decision would be to let him walk for a comp pick next yeAR.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Think anyone with half a brain knew Heyward wasn't staying here long term and it was a risk to sign him to big dollars as it is due to his lack of offensive production.

But, Shelby Miller? Really, not like Shelby Miller and a top 10 prospect? Not Shelby Miller and Matt Carpenter? Not Shelby Miller and someone good at the very least?

I'm shocked.

THIS....I'm shocked.....I knew we we're gonna rebuild, reload, whatever you want to call it, but we didn't get enough IMO.

[Hawk]

Some positives to take away, Miller finished this yr on a roll with a 2.95 ERA over his last 12 starts. May be something clicked for him.

That's like saying, "Hey, I just cut my penis off -- but the Dr. may be able to give me prosthetic."

[50PoundHead]

They aren't and Hart warned us. One of the reason's JS wanted Hart in the primary position for now is because of this, as it would be a huge undertaking for a talented guy like JC to doing such a thing.

Or Hart is in there to make all the unpopular moves before he turns over the clean slate to Coppolella.

[yeezus]

#DoumitforRF

[Carp]

So JS, Bobby, and to a certain degree Hart (although he wasn't apart of it) think it is 1988 it appears and stockpiling as many high upside arms as possible and try to build this thing from the ground up?

Except take Heyward and Upton out of this equation and where is our Gant, Justice, etc?

Gant would be Gattis obviously. We don't have a Justice.

[PurpleBrave]

Heyward wasn't going to sign here long term. We got a high ceiling pitcher in return.

I don't see what the issue was. The real dumb decision would be to let him walk for a comp pick next yeAR.

I'm going to take a few breathes before I bash it. I'm reading comments from other fans who think it's really smart. Heyward wasn't signing here...you get a quality arm signed for several more years.

[Russ2dollas]

Agree.
Miller + a top 10 would be a decent haul. This guy isn't top 25


Think anyone with half a brain knew Heyward wasn't staying here long term and it was a risk to sign him to big dollars as it is due to his lack of offensive production.

But, Shelby Miller? Really, not like Shelby Miller and a top 10 prospect? Not Shelby Miller and Matt Carpenter? Not Shelby Miller and someone good at the very least?

I'm shocked.

[yeezus]

this org. and front office is a joke. total joke. this team is set up to be legit bad for years.

[emk418]

Again....forgetting about the shock of Heyward being gone. Teheran, Wood, Miller, Minor is pretty sexy.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Heyward wasn't going to sign here long term. We got a high ceiling pitcher in return.

I don't see what the issue was. The real dumb decision would be to let him walk for a comp pick next yeAR.

What we got is with a little refining with his secondary pitches (Miller) is a guy that potentially could be our next John Smoltz. And we got another high upside arm that may live up to some of the potential as well.

Of course the other flip side, neither could amount to much and Miller could be stuck as a middle of the rotation starter and Jenkins amounts to nothing.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Or Hart is in there to make all the unpopular moves before he turns over the clean slate to Coppolella.

That's what I was getting at.

[Hawk]

Teheran, Wood, Miller, Minor is pretty sexy.

Like, this sexy:

http://static.tvgcdn.net/MediaBin/Content/131021/News/2_tues/thumbs/131022walton-goggins1_210x305.jpg

[yeezus]

Again....forgetting about the shock of Heyward being gone. Teheran, Wood, Miller, Minor is pretty sexy.

Agreed, but our offense that will get shutout 100 times isn't.
Miller still has a lot to prove, Minor has to rebound.

[goldfly]

Zach Klein
@ZachKleinWSB
MLB source - This is just the beginning. Only players safe are top-3 pitchers, Kimbrel, Freddie and Simmons"

WTF.

keeping Kimbrel is so ****ing stupid now

cause we need to save games badly i guess

[holden]

Think I'm done as a Braves fan. He was my favorite player to watch, and this is a joke of a return.

Terrible organization.

Later, y'all.

[lesak1313]

I hate to see Heyward go. He was one of my favorites and the player I wanted to do well more than any player since Andruw Jones. I remember how he was leading the NL MVP race after two months as a 20 year old in 2010. He was now entering his prime years, but it all boils down to a few things...

1. There was a slim to no chance Jason Heyward would be a Brave in 2016.
2. With Uggla and B. Upton, there was a slim to no chance the Braves would win a World Series in 2015.

The Braves know this. The Cardinals know this. The entire league knows this. The Braves are building a young, talented team with eyes set on competing for a World Series in 2017 after two average seasons. After this trade, there is no way the Braves can justify not moving Justin Upton. IMO, they can't even justify signing him to an extension. He has to go for some more young talent and salary relief.

[PurpleBrave]

Braves acquired RHP Tyrell Jenkins and RHP Shelby Miller from the Cardinals for OF Jason Heyward and RHP Jordan Walden.
Jenkins hasn't quite met the hype that made him a supplemental first-round pick in the 2010 MLB Amateur Draft, but he is a well-built 22-year-old with the raw ability to eventually develop into a high-impact major league pitcher. Jenkins was recruited to play quarterback at Baylor University before signing with St. Louis. He had a good showing this year in the Arizona Fall League after battling injuries for much of 2013 and 2014.

[jpx7]

Heyward wasn't going to sign here long term. We got a high ceiling pitcher in return.

I don't see what the issue was. The real dumb decision would be to let him walk for a comp pick next yeAR.

See, many of us don't see Miller's ceiling as all that high—and that's a big part of the issue here that I guess you're not seeing.

[bravesnumberone]

One or two posters celebrated Wren getting fired. Most of us said he was getting scapegoated HARD.

Well **** them. Just **** it all to hell.

[nsacpi]

Heyward wasn't going to sign here long term. We got a high ceiling pitcher in return.

I don't see what the issue was. The real dumb decision would be to let him walk for a comp pick next yeAR.

Miller had the seventh worst FIP among qualifying pitchers. Just sayin. Snugly tucked in between Kyle Kendrick and Colby Lewis. But hey gotta love that high ceiling.

[PurpleBrave]

Think I'm done as a Braves fan. He was my favorite player to watch, and this is a joke of a return.

Terrible organization.

Later, y'all.

See you tomorrow

[Prikichi]

Think I'm done as a Braves fan. He was my favorite player to watch, and this is a joke of a return.

Terrible organization.

Later, y'all.

+1

[CK86]

Welp, my summer for the next couple years just freed up. Hope it turns out well but my initial reaction is "really, that's it?". Yikes.

[yeezus]

Miller had the seventh worth FIP among qualifying pitchers. Just sayin. Snugly tucked in between Kyle Kendrick and Colby Lewis. But hey gotta love that high ceiling.

Oooh maybe we can get Kendrick for Justin?

[emk418]

Think I'm done as a Braves fan. He was my favorite player to watch, and this is a joke of a return.

Terrible organization.

Later, y'all.

See ya

[Russ2dollas]

Why do you keep Kimbrel? He's not going to get to pitch b/c you have to score to get a lead. Save some innings on his arm this year?

[Tino25Dynasty]

**** this trade

[nsacpi]

Why do you keep Kimbrel? He's not going to get to pitch b/c you have to score to get a lead. Save some innings on his arm this year?

That's part of the plan. Save Kimbrel for 2017. Wow 2017 is looking great all of a sudden. There should be a boycott of the new ballpark because it seems to have really screwed things up for this team.

[sentenza]

Very funny!
On the Cardinals board they also don't like the trade.
Because they don't see how the can extend both.

We get 4 years of Miller and prob. another free 10 Mio. $!

Very excited to see what this team will do? Sign one of the top pitchers this year / or probaly next year, where more aces are FA.
Will they go hard after Yoan Morcada?

[gilesfan]

Again....forgetting about the shock of Heyward being gone. Teheran, Wood, Miller, Minor is pretty sexy.

Yeah man, def.

FIP:

Teheran 3.49
Wood 3.25
Minor 4.39
Miller 4.54

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

[Carp]

If we are trading Justin too, we have to get Walker at the very least. Rotation of JT, Wood, Miller, Minor, and Walker. We wouldn't score any runs, but we'd have the best rotation in baseball.

[emk418]

I'm obviously in the minority but don't mind this trade. I think it's a solid haul. But the puzzling thing to me is why rush into this move so early in the offseason? I would have liked to at least get 1 position prospect back. You guys are going to come around on Jenkins quickly.

[gilesfan]

Who else is pumped for 2017!?

[gilesfan]

If we are trading Justin too, we have to get Walker at the very least. Rotation of JT, Wood, Miller, Minor, and Walker. We wouldn't score any runs, but we'd have the best rotation in baseball.

No, not really.

[NinersSBChamps]

Maybe this trade is our revenge for the Wainwright deal? An oft injured talented corner outfielder. In return we get the future ace pitcher in the trade.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Why do you keep Kimbrel? He's not going to get to pitch b/c you have to score to get a lead. Save some innings on his arm this year?

Don't worry, our trustworth FO is working on it, we need a replacement for Heyward in the OF so look for a Kimbrel to Detroit for JD Martinez.

[holden]

Yeah man, def.

FIP:

Teheran 3.49
Wood 3.25
Minor 4.39
Miller 4.54

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

LOL

Add that to our storied, high-octane offense.. We're going to be a force to be reckoned with!!!

[gilesfan]

I'm obviously in the minority but don't mind this trade. I think it's a solid haul. But the puzzling thing to me is why rush into this move so early in the offseason? I would have liked to at least get 1 position prospect back. You guys are going to come around on Jenkins quickly.

Once this 21 year old gets out of A ball, the sky is the limit! He struck out 5 guys per 9 last year in A ball!

[nsacpi]

Maybe this trade is our revenge for the Wainwright deal? An oft injured talented corner outfielder. In return we get the future ace pitcher in the trade.

You really think Miller is a future ace? Seriously?

[Carp]

No, not really.

LMAO, ok. Lemme guess, the a Nats still have a better rotation. Lol

[Hawk]

In other news, the Cardinals have a sick lineup.

[Prikichi]

Don't worry, our trustworth FO is working on it, we need a replacement for Heyward in the OF so look for a Kimbrel to Detroit for JD Martinez.

Or Austin Jackson, you know to fill the black quota

[gilesfan]

And no, Jenkins isn't terrible by any means, but it a huge risk expecting anything from a guy that has never pitched in AA. I mean, as part of a prospect package, it's a nice haul. For a Chris Johnson type, it's a nice haul. For Jason Heyward, it's not a nice haul.

[Carp]

Yeah man, def.

FIP:

Teheran 3.49
Wood 3.25
Minor 4.39
Miller 4.54

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

Because FIP is such an amazing STAT right? Lol plz.

[Russ2dollas]

I don't get this GM's obsession with pitching. If there is one thing the Braves can do it's pitching. We develop starters and we can put together bull pens. We have some 5th starter types close and a high ceiling guy in Sims. We have young guys in Tehran, Wood, and Minor.

We seem to be desperate to put in a C who can't hit to go with our SS who can't hit. We are stuck with a CF who can't hit. We cut a 2B who can't hit.

[NYCBrave]

Some positives to take away, Miller finished this yr on a roll with a 2.95 ERA over his last 12 starts. May be something clicked for him.

Exactly!

[Tino25Dynasty]

I'm confused... Maybe we are in rebuild mode..... I'm more upset about Walden being traded than Heyward..... Great setup men are not that easy to find.... Walden was awesome

Heyward.... could go either way.... I guess they look at it like Jeff Francouer and think that if Heyward is to become the player they thought, it's not going to happen with them. Best of luck to the guy.

[Dalyn]

Kimbrel managed to save games with this ****ty team, so I guess one ****ty team is as good as the next. It sucks for him because he signed a long contract with a competitive team and somehow ended up on the Astros.

[jpx7]

In other news, the Cardinals have a sick lineup.

****ing Hart: trades my favorite player to the team I loathe most—for an overrated pitcher, no less—all so the team can punt until they move to the suburbs.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Or Austin Jackson, you know to fill the black quota

An Action Jackson along with a BJ later on sounds really good.

[JohnAdcox]

Did anyone hear if St Louis released the hostages now that their demands were met?

[57Brave]

I thought the Braves should have waited , gotten Cole Hamels for the .270 hitting corner OF with no power. Then had the Phils pick up 70% of Hamels salary.
Screw John Hart, Fredi Gonzalez , Bobby Cox and Fred Haney.

edit:
Didn't realize the JHey slugging % was a paltry .384 this season a mere .020 more than Chris Johnson and in fact Freeman had more triples !!
After 4 years in the bigs -- this has nothing to do with line ups or hitting oaches.
Please remember this team won only 79 games.

[gilesfan]

LMAO, ok. Lemme guess, the a Nats still have a better rotation. Lol

Are you asking if Strasburg, Zimmermann, Fister, Gio, and Roark; who put up 1000 IP with a 3.04 ERA and 3.24 ERA is better than Teheran, Wood, Minor, Miller, Walker; the answer is yes. But, so are several other starting pitching staffs.

[VirginiaBrave]

We were warned. The Braves way is pitching first. We didn't have enough. We will compete in 2016.

[gilesfan]

Because FIP is such an amazing STAT right? Lol plz.

Want to use ERA?

[Millwood1Hitter]

I'm confused... Maybe we are in rebuild mode..... I'm more upset about Walden being traded than Heyward..... Great setup men are not that easy to find.... Walden was awesome

Heyward.... could go either way.... I guess they look at it like Jeff Francouer and think that if Heyward is to become the player they thought, it's not going to happen with them. Best of luck to the guy.

Really? Walden was very good but oft injured and his production slipped whenever given the opportunity to take on a large workload and work multiple days in a row. But collectively we should have gotten more for Heyward and a quality late inning guy like Walden than what we got.

[jpx7]

We will compete in 2016.

I'm damn skeptical of that premise.

[Millwood1Hitter]

I don't get this GM's obsession with pitching. If there is one thing the Braves can do it's pitching. We develop starters and we can put together bull pens. We have some 5th starter types close and a high ceiling guy in Sims. We have young guys in Tehran, Wood, and Minor.

We seem to be desperate to put in a C who can't hit to go with our SS who can't hit. We are stuck with a CF who can't hit. We cut a 2B who can't hit.

You see my friend, Hart failed to put together a formiable rotation with a top of the rotation type starter during his tenure in Cleveland that probably would have lead to a World Series if he done so....so now he is acquiring arms and dreaming of putting together a potentially great pitching staff so when it's all said and done he can say that he built the mega team in the history of baseball

The offense of the mid 90's Cleveland Indians along with the pitching of the 2017 Atlanta Braves

[Tino25Dynasty]

I don't get why we would go into rebuild mode anyway? We weren't that far off.... Just had a some underperforming players... Mostly on offense that needed to be shuffled. Otherwise, pitching was pretty good.

I hope John Schuerholz didn't sign off on this

[Tino25Dynasty]

Really? Walden was very good but oft injured and his production slipped whenever given the opportunity to take on a large workload and work multiple days in a row. But collectively we should have gotten more for Heyward and a quality late inning guy like Walden than what we got.

It's not that I think he was an All Star or anything but lets face it.... The overwhelmingly majority of the time, he did his job which was get the ball to Kimbrel

[depley]

Ok Braves traded 11M of payroll for 500K with 4 years of control in Shelby Miller (6 years for the other pitcher). This using a player they have tried in the past to extend, who seem to have no interest in that or wanted way to much money for what he has show at the plate.

Mark DeRosa put in nicely, .271 with 11 homers....... there are bench guys that do that.

I want everyone to stop and remember this trade. Wainright for one year of JD Drew. This is really the same trade only coming back the Braves way. Miller was a #1 pick for the Cards, just as Wainright was for the Braves.

[acesfull86]

FWIW, in 2013, Miller checked in at #32 on Fangraphs' trade value list (Heyward at #45). A year later it looks a little worse for the Braves, but I have a feeling both guys are going to have big years with their new clubs.

[Millwood1Hitter]

I don't get why we would go into rebuild mode anyway? We weren't that far off.... Just had a some underperforming players... Mostly on offense that needed to be shuffled. Otherwise, pitching was pretty good.

I hope John Schuerholz didn't sign off on this

I'll bet my house that he did, and he just didn't sign a piece of paper. Then again, it's never a very good idea to bet your house with JS.

BUT I will guarentee

If the move works out and proves to be genius, JS was behind the move....and if doesn't....well his long-time friend Hart will be pushed aside like his long-time colleague Wren

[Hawk]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
John Hart says the #Braves are better short term and long term with trade

[The Chosen One]

Miller will be out with arm trouble by the break.

Cards will put Heyward in the middle if the order and he'll out produce Freddie.

[PurpleBrave]

Heyward's WAR was like a 7. His replacement better be good

[jpx7]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
John Hart says the #Braves are better short term and long term with trade

**** that guy. Seriously.

[zbhargrove]

I think I can speak for everyone in saying thank GOD we also got Jenkins.

[bravesnumberone]

I know people are upset right now, but when you calm down and the smoke clears, a few things become evident.

Let's face it, we had to move Heyward. He wasn't re-signing here, and we weren't outbidding anyone for him on a long term deal.

I know we had dreams of getting a huge Teixera like haul from someone, but Heyward has 1 year left on his deal, and he hasn't lived up to his hitting potential yet. I think we're valuing him more than the league at this point.

He also brings tremendous defense to the table and is a marketable star in Atlanta. Just because we had to trade him doesn't mean you just give him away. If he's not valued as much, why would the Cardinals want him for a year?

[Tino25Dynasty]

I'll bet my house that he did, and he just didn't sign a piece of paper. Then again, it's never a very good idea to bet your house with JS.

BUT I will guarentee

If the move works out and proves to be genius, JS was behind the move....and if doesn't....well his long-time friend Hart will be pushed aside like his long-time colleague Wren

LOL, probably

Why was John Hart so highly touted by JS anyway? If he was so great, why wasn't he GMing a team already?

[Millwood1Hitter]

PLEASE GET RID OF BJ UPTON AND HIS CONTRACT AS HE IS THE ONE CAUSING ALL OF THIS **** TO GO DOWN

[emk418]

Jason Heyward is an impact defender but has really slipped offensively. Last 2 years: 25 HR, .400 SLG. Nate Schierholtz: 28 HR, .400 SLG - Not my thoughts....from Jayson Stark

[zbhargrove]

One source says only Kimbrel, Simmons, and Freeman are safe (don't know why Teheran isn't listed there... we better keep him). Sounds like a firesale is happening this week. Gattis, Jupton, and CJ are gone I bet... I'm going to wait until this all plays out before I decide if I hate it. I'm also still holding out fools hope that maybe we can sign Heyward in FA

[MadduxFanII]

**** that guy. Seriously.

In fairness, the wisdom of Hart's statement really depends on how we're defining "short term." If Hart is using a geological time frame, then it could well be true that we'll be better off by, say, 2025, which is definitely short term compared to the life of the Earth.

[Prikichi]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
John Hart says the #Braves are better short term and long term with trade

HAHAHAH FCK you Hart. No one with half a brain will believe that crap

[Dunit24]

Miller will be out with arm trouble by the break.

Cards will put Heyward in the middle if the order and he'll out produce Freddie.

This is what every braves fan thinks will happen.

What if Heyward doesn't and miller excels here?? This is what cards fans are thinking.

I expect a wash. We got a pitcher with good potential for an of who's glove we will miss but can find someone to at least match his production for much cheaper.

Calm down. Good move Hart.

[Millwood1Hitter]

One source says only Kimbrel, Simmons, and Freeman are safe (don't know why Teheran isn't listed there... we better keep him). Sounds like a firesale is happening this week. Gattis, Jupton, and CJ are gone I bet... I'm going to wait until this all plays out before I decide if I hate it. I'm also still holding out fools hope that maybe we can sign Heyward in FA

I don't think Heyward is coming back, it is the long-shots of all long-shots.

North Dakota!

[Tino25Dynasty]

PLEASE GET RID OF BJ UPTON AND HIS CONTRACT AS HE IS THE ONE CAUSING ALL OF THIS **** TO GO DOWN

He's definitely had a big impact but that's on Wren. BJ was never a great player to begin with. What Wren was thinking is beyond me. But lets face it, BJ's lack of doing a damn thing has definitely set things on a different course for the Bravos.

[stpeteirish]

I don't get why we would go into rebuild mode anyway? We weren't that far off.... Just had a some underperforming players... Mostly on offense that needed to be shuffled. Otherwise, pitching was pretty good.

I hope John Schuerholz didn't sign off on this

Our pitching WAS pretty good. But we have some major holes in our rotation and the front office seems convinced the farm system has no one who will help. And of course Schuerholz "signed off" on this, he's in charge.

Good idea, trade an expensive OF'r for cheap starting pitching but we didn't get enough especially when you toss in Walden. Why didn't we wait and make a better deal? Way too early in the off season to be dumping guys.

[Dalyn]

If we sign the package of Lester and Peavy (using money saved in the deal and using Minor to help unload BJ and his contract) this might make sense.

Lester
Teheran
Wood
Peavy
Miller

Otherwise, adding Miller doesn't even come close to making this a great rotation. And what I just outlined above is never going to happen, so...

[zbhargrove]

I don't think Heyward is coming back, it is the long-shots of all long-shots.

North Dakota!

Didn't say he was... I said it was a fools hope... still, we all thought Uggla was the best trade ever. What if Heyward never finds it and Miller does become an ace (he obviously has the potential... he was just as good a pitching prospect as Teheran and has shown plenty of potential)... I don't like the deal now but it has the potential to be better than we are making it out.

[Hawk]

I like Shelby Miller, I just don't like him in exchange for Jason Heyward.

[Enscheff]

JUp to Seattle for Walker or Paxton. Who else from Seattle would even be an option?

I have to think Tomas is in play now. Who else is going to possibly be signed to play OF that fits into the 2017 picture?

[zbhargrove]

JUp to Seattle for Walker or Paxton. Who else from Seattle would even be an option?

Franklin would be a good match.

[Dunit24]

Our pitching WAS pretty good. But we have some major holes in our rotation and the front office seems convince the farm system has no one who will help. And of course Schuerholz "signed off" on this, he's in charge.

Good idea, trade an expensive OF'r for cheap starting pitching but we didn't get enough especially when you toss in Walden. Why didn't we wait and make a better deal? Way too early in the off season to be dumping guys.

Maybe we value miller very highly? Didn't want to let this pass. I see what we are saying regarding Heyward, but I think we have overrated him big time...and he was one of my favs.

[goldfly]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
John Hart says the #Braves are better short term and long term with trade

so our gm that isn't our gm is just as dumb as our actual manager


****ing great

**** him

[stpeteirish]

Deal probably means we're keeping Gattis and putting him in LF, and moving JUp to RF. Everyone keeps saying we can't afford both Heyward and Jup so a trade of one of them shouldn't be a surprise.

[Enscheff]

Deal probably means we're keeping Gattis and putting him in LF, and moving JUp to RF. Everyone keeps saying we can't afford both Heyward and Jup so a trade of one of them shouldn't be a surprise.

This is going to be an epically bad defensive OF...

[zbhargrove]

Deal probably means we're keeping Gattis and putting him in LF, and moving JUp to RF. Everyone keeps saying we can't afford both Heyward and Jup so a trade of one of them shouldn't be a surprise.

I think its full rebuild mode... Upton will be a Yankee or Mariner... Gattis will be gone. Seems like most MLB sources think its a full rebuild also.

[Dunit24]

If we sign the package of Lester and Peavy (using money saved in the deal and using Minor to help unload BJ and his contract) this might make sense.

Lester
Teheran
Wood
Peavy
Miller

Otherwise, adding Miller doesn't even come close to making this a great rotation. And what I just outlined above is never going to happen, so...

Or saving money to signing an ace next year or going into 2017. We should sit back and see what the team ends up looking like in 2017 before jumping off the ledge.

[Tino25Dynasty]

I like Shelby Miller, I just don't like him in exchange for Jason Heyward.

If it was a simple Heyward for Miller swap, I actually wouldn't mind it that much.... Basically the Braves (and I don't blame them) came to the conclusion that Heyward isn't going to become what they thought. At least not with them. It pretty much went the same with Jeff Francoeur. Goldenboy dude busted upon the scene, looked like he was gonna be with the club for 15 years, was traded and never signed longed term figuring he was a bust. So far, they've been right.

We'll have to see with Heyward but they're figuring the same thing.

[bravesnumberone]

Lol wait. So Freeman and Kimbrel are safe when they could get a fleecing in return. What a joke this front office is.

Guess Bobby didn't care for Heyward. Ya know since he likes to rescue his boys.

[Enscheff]

Franklin would be a good match.

Couple problems:

1. Simmons will be playing SS
2. The Braves just traded TLS to open up 2B for Peraza
3. Franklin was traded to the Rays

[Dalyn]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
John Hart says the #Braves are better short term and long term with trade

:Alone:


Jason Heyward vs Shelby Miller: .286 .444 .714 1.159

[zbhargrove]

Couple problems:

1. Simmons will be playing SS
2. The Braves just traded TLS to open up 2B for Peraza
3. Franklin was traded to the Rays

Forgot Franklin was traded... my bad. He also played the outfield some.

[Dalyn]

Or saving money to signing an ace next year or going into 2017. We should sit back and see what the team ends up looking like in 2017 before jumping off the ledge.

So you want everyone to sit around waiting for the end of 2017 before responding? What about if Heyward has a 40/40 season next year?

[Russ2dollas]

so we toss Upton and use the Upton/Jhey money on Shields.........then we lose 80 games 1-0 or 2-0.

[zbhargrove]

Would be nice to get Alex Jackson and D.J. Peterson from Seattle plus Walker... probably too much for Upton but that would be a sweet haul.

[Dalyn]

so we toss Upton and use the Upton/Jhey money on Shields.........then we lose 80 games 1-0 or 2-0.

So basically 2014 II?

[Dunit24]

So you want everyone to sit around waiting for the end of 2017 before responding? What about if Heyward has a 40/40 season next year?

Then he's going to get a ton of money on the market.

What if he doesn't and miller wins 20 games? That seems more likely than Heyward 40/40.

[50PoundHead]

Think I'm done as a Braves fan. He was my favorite player to watch, and this is a joke of a return.

Terrible organization.

Later, y'all.

This coming from the guy who thinks Uggla should still be in the starting line-up.

[zbhargrove]

So you want everyone to sit around waiting for the end of 2017 before responding? What about if Heyward has a 40/40 season next year?

We playing the what if game? Okay, what if Heyward keeps doing what he's been doing?

[braves31win]

So you want everyone to sit around waiting for the end of 2017 before responding? What about if Heyward has a 40/40 season next year?

Well considering his highs are 27/21, what if Miller has an ERA of 0.63, 230K and wins Cy Young?

[Enscheff]

Then he's going to get a ton of money on the market.

What if he doesn't and miller wins 20 games? That seems more likely than Heyward 40/40.

That would require the Braves to win 20 games next year...

[Dalyn]

Then he's going to get a ton of money on the market.

What if he doesn't and miller wins 20 games? That seems more likely than Heyward 40/40.

More likely? Tom Glavine would have trouble winning 20 games with this offense. Heyward, on the other hand, has already had a 20/20 season on a team with no hitting coach and terrible baserunning.

[depley]

Think about this stat.

2014 .169 BA .252 OBP and 2 HR that is Jason Heyward's line against LH pitching in 2014. He has not been the same since getting hit in the head.

[zbhargrove]

More likely? Tom Glavine would have trouble winning 20 games with this offense. Heyward, on the other hand, has already had a 20/20 season on a team with no hitting coach and terrible baserunning.

Lol... Hewyard has basically zero shot at a 40/40 season.

[Dalyn]

We playing the what if game? Okay, what if Heyward keeps doing what he's been doing?

Just to clarify for people missing the point...it was a statement about how ridiculous it is to wait until the end of 2017 to get upset.

[Carp]

Want to use ERA?

How bout realize he's not even 24 and his rookie yr as fantastic. He had a sophomore slump but was still an effective pitcher.

[kendiz]

Cards will have stiff competition to sign him long term. Namely from the yanks and BoSox. Pretty clear Heyward wants to go to FA. Unless the Cards are offering 200 million this very minute, it's hard to imagine Heyward signing an extension.

Yup...and we get a good young starter..... Heyward is looking for BIG money and a BIGGER stage.... Good trade in my opinion.

[Dalyn]

Think about this stat.

2014 .169 BA .252 OBP and 2 HR that is Jason Heyward's line against LH pitching in 2014. He has not been the same since getting hit in the head.

He could get hit again and flip those stats right around.

[The Chosen One]

Heyward is the ultimate team player.

He's going to tank next season to lower his value which will make re-signing him easier.

[Dunit24]

More likely? Tom Glavine would have trouble winning 20 games with this offense. Heyward, on the other hand, has already had a 20/20 season on a team with no hitting coach and terrible baserunning.

20/20....we are talking 40/40. Heyward ain't doing that. As hart said, we are getting a quality sp for 4 years in exchange for a quality of for one year. Pretty clear cut Jason wasn't going to be resigned. In one year, this deal will look great. I agree now it hurts us, but long term this is a great deal.

[Dalyn]

Lol... Hewyard has basically zero shot at a 40/40 season.

Heyward, all kidding aside, is the exact type of player capable of having a 40/40 season in his prime.

[bravesnumberone]

Heyward is the ultimate team player.

He's going to tank next season to lower his value which will make re-signing him easier.

Going to be hard to compensate his hatred of baseball with the city that supposedly loves it the most.

[Russ2dollas]

heyward's swing will not let him hit 40 Hrs....too many line drives and too many pounded into the ground.

He's fast, but I haven't seen anything to suggest he has the instincts to get 40 SBs.

You also have to get on base to steal 40 bases.

We should have had a top 10 position prospect in this deal. Cards have quality depth in the system.

[Tapate50]

So people are down on Miller after one fantastic rookie year and a sophmore slump, but Heyward is worth more than him based on mostly defense?

I think we have misconstrued the value of our own players\prospects. Every trade we have made is what the market would bear.

I'll wait and see what the rest of the offseason bears before I judge this one, as Heywards production is certainly repeatable in other ways.

[holden]

This coming from the guy who thinks Uggla should still be in the starting line-up.

You're confusing me with someone else.

[skillet]

So:

Cardinals get:
Heyward - 1 year of control for $8.3MM in 2015
Walden - 2 years of control for $3.0MM in 2015

Braves get:
Miller - 4 years of control for $550,000 in 2015
Jenkins - 6 years of control

So essentially we gave up one year of Heyward and two of Walden for 4 of Miller and 6 of Jenkins, and shed roughly $11MM from the 2015 payroll. Miller is a very good, young starting pitcher who has ace or #2 potential and has pitched like a solid #3 so far. Jenkins has a very high ceiling but some injury issues. Overall I'd have to say this is probably a fair trade for both sides.

[50PoundHead]

Jenkins is a ways away, but appears to be healthy again, having pitched in the Arizona Fall League.

Here's a piece on him: http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2014/11/5/7152763/arizona-fall-league-update-rhp-tyrell-jenkins

[Tapate50]

Heyward, all kidding aside, is the exact type of player capable of having a 40/40 season in his prime.

What exactly suggests this?

[Dalyn]

Mostly defense? Seriously? I think people forget Heyward is only 25 and has spent his MLB career on a team with no hitting coach.

[50PoundHead]

You're confusing me with someone else.

Not that I recall, but I am old and could be mistaken.

[Millwood1Hitter]

so we toss Upton and use the Upton/Jhey money on Shields.........then we lose 80 games 1-0 or 2-0.

And this would be any different than what we witnessed in 2014?

[Dalyn]

What exactly suggests this?

Speed and the body of someone who will grow into his power. 30/30 will definitely happen, in my opinion.

[Tapate50]

So:

Cardinals get:
Heyward - 1 year of control for $8.3MM in 2015
Walden - 2 years of control for $3.0MM in 2015

Braves get:
Miller - 4 years of control for $550,000 in 2015
Jenkins - 6 years of control

So essentially we gave up one year of Heyward and two of Walden for 4 of Miller and 6 of Jenkins, and shed roughly $11MM from the 2015 payroll. Miller is a very good starting pitcher who has ace or #2 potential and has pitched like a #3 so far. Jenkins has a high ceiling but some injury issues. Overall I'd have to say this is probably a fair trade for both sides.

I have a feeling that shedding some payroll might have been understood after we had to emergency sign Santanna this passed year... having a 120M payroll while still in our current place was probably unrealistic to begin with. I'd love to go all out for Moncada (sp?)

[Diesel]

Heyward isn't a power hitter. His swing is not conducive to homeruns. That won't change. It's not about his size, power, approach, or willingness to learn.....biomechanically, he just doesn't do things the way a power hitter does. Still a quality player. But not the kind of producer he will get paid to be.

[emk418]

Bottom line is unless Heyward breaks out into a star offensively THIS year the trade is a win for us. Because he was gone regardless in 2016.

[zbhargrove]

Heyward, all kidding aside, is the exact type of player capable of having a 40/40 season in his prime.

Not with his career trends

[Dalyn]

Okay.

[sturg33]

Not happy about losing Heyward. At least we got some upside. But I'm more interested in getting every day players back. I don't like this deal.

But why the **** is Kimbrel safe? He's the easiest guy to move we have, and it won't really impact us in the short term (since we're punting)

[gilesfan]

How bout realize he's not even 24 and his rookie yr as fantastic. He had a sophomore slump but was still an effective pitcher.

Well, he actually is 24.

His rookie year was solid, but nothing special. He is a decent young, middle of the rotation starter...which is fine. But, he was acquired for Jason Heyward.......and Jordan Walden.

Claiming that starting staff is the best in baseball is hilarious. You think that staff puts up an ERA around the 3 mark?

[zbhargrove]

Mostly defense? Seriously? I think people forget Heyward is only 25 and has spent his MLB career on a team with no hitting coach.

You are so overrating the role of a hitting coach.

[Millwood1Hitter]

Not happy about losing Heyward. At least we got some upside. But I'm more interested in getting every day players back. I don't like this deal.

But why the **** is Kimbrel safe? He's the easiest guy to move we have, and it won't really impact us in the short term (since we're punting)

Now we know why Fredi and Co. didn't use Kimbrell for multiple innings last year against the Dodgers in an elimination game, as they truely were thinking about the FUTURE.

Also you have to wonder what is going through the heads of the likes of Freeman, Kimbrel, Simmons, etc who signed long-term extensions with so much turmoil and proven that the next 2 years probably are going to mean very little. I hope Hart at least had the nerve to sit down with them and explain what they were thinking and the potential process of putting together a "championship caliber team" in 2017.

[bravesnumberone]

I think Hart wasn't lying about not being the actual GM.

The actual GM is William Shanks.

[Tapate50]

Jenkins is a ways away, but appears to be healthy again, having pitched in the Arizona Fall League.

Here's a piece on him: http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2014/11/5/7152763/arizona-fall-league-update-rhp-tyrell-jenkins

Great link 50, thanks.

Thats some real positive data right there.

[Dalyn]

You are so overrating the role of a hitting coach.

Okay.

[Russ2dollas]

Keith Law likes it for both teams. Says Jenkins leapfrogs Sims to be our clear number 1 pitching prospect. Calls miller a mid rotation guy floor with a number 2 ceiling. Thought that his close to the season was a result of a change in pitch selection so maybe sustainable vs a fluke.

Maybe I'd feel better if I thought CB looked better behind the plate or had any chance of hitting. Maybe if I hadn't seen how awful Gattis is in LF and noticed how his offensive numbers aren't great compared to other LFs. Maybe if I thought FF was going to be a 30 plus HR guy. Or that Simmons was going to be an avg OBP guy. Maybe if CJ wasn't CJ and BJ wasn't BJ.

Just feel like we're going to see Terdo starting in a corner next year.

[NYCBrave]

Heyward was gone regardless, I think some people are in denial about that. Yes it hurts, but that's the reality for us.

[Tapate50]

Now we know why Fredi and Co. didn't use Kimbrell for multiple innings last year against the Dodgers in an elimination game, as they truely were thinking about the FUTURE.

Also you have to wonder what is going through the heads of the likes of Freeman, Kimbrel, Simmons, etc who signed long-term extensions with so much turmoil and proven that the next 2 years probably are going to mean very little. I hope Hart at least had the nerve to sit down with them and explain what they were thinking and the potential process of putting together a "championship caliber team" in 2017.

They got jeff loria'd but...

It worked for the Marlins. TWICE!

Fwiw, i think our FO has seen the run the Giants are on, and thinks that is a very good model especially with having to keep payroll in line.

[clvclv]

Some positives to take away, Miller finished this yr on a roll with a 2.95 ERA over his last 12 starts. May be something clicked for him.

Heard from a big Cards fan earlier. He thought the roll Miller was on at the end of the season was enough for them to keep him. He says he and quite a few of his buddies who know the Cards' system aren't all that jazzed about the deal.

Neither side "wins" HUGE unless both Miller and Jenkins reach their ceilings or Jason reaches his in 2015 AND the Cardinals are willing to pony up around $180 million plus. While neither is likely, this should be interesting.

So funny to hear all these people around here in favor of a bit of a firesale in an effort to reshape and be ready for the new park, then *itch and whine when it starts.

[jpx7]

This coming from the guy who thinks Uggla should still be in the starting line-up.

I'll be honest: I've been thinking a lot over the past year or so about dropping the Braves (and thus baseball) from the list of things I spend time worrying myself with as a spectator.

The first straw, for me, was the racist, suburban switch from a perfectly good stadium to a sparkly new one in an adjoining county. Sure, it may very well be good business, for them, but it left a nasty taste in my metaphorical mouth. But, I rationalized to myself, at least it will be good for the team on the field—and that's what I care about with respect to the Braves.

Now that same sparkly new stadium is being used as justification for another rebuild, right around the moment it felt like the last, post-Cox rebuilding just got some legs under it. And, honestly, I personally felt better about the direction of the team circa two months ago, at the end of the 2014 regular season than I do now—despite both that roster's and that management's warts—considering what I've seen, heard, and read from this new (but really pretty old) crew managing the latest round of rebuilding we're watching commence.

To top it off, from the perspective of my personal spectation: the first real shoe to drop is a trade of my favorite player—a kid I was elated to see the Braves draft, who I followed up the system, and who I really enjoyed watching—to the major-league team I despise most, and for a return whose quality leaves me feeling further skeptical about the evaluative capacities of the "new" regime.

There's more to come, I'm sure—and for the Braves sake, I hope the return on the younger Upton, Gattis, Kimbrel (if they're wise enough to trade him while they're at it), and whoever else is a lot better than what the team received for Heyward. Nonetheless, it's certainly been enough to shake my desire to follow this (and thus any) club.

But I like baseball, and I like discussing baseball, so I'm not sure that just walking away is the best route, for me. At the moment, I'm seriously considering an alternative bargain: actively rooting against this team—at least for a few years.

[emk418]

So people are down on Miller after one fantastic rookie year and a sophmore slump, but Heyward is worth more than him based on mostly defense?

I think we have misconstrued the value of our own players\prospects. Every trade we have made is what the market would bear.

I'll wait and see what the rest of the offseason bears before I judge this one, as Heywards production is certainly repeatable in other ways.

And his "sophomore slump" he was still effective. He's a big time young SP.

[Russ2dollas]

I don't mind trading everybody. But it depends on the return.


Heard from a big Cards fan earlier. He thought the roll Miller was on at the end of the season was enough for them to keep him. He says he and quite a few of his buddies who know the Cards' system aren't all that jazzed about the deal.

Neither side "wins" HUGE unless both Miller and Jenkins reach their ceilings or Jason reaches his in 2015 AND the Cardinals are willing to pony up around $180 million plus. While neither is likely, this should be interesting.

So funny to hear all these people around here in favor of a bit of a firesale in an effort to reshape and be ready for the new park, then *itch and whine when it starts.

[Carp]

I think people are also overstating the actual value Heyward has. Despite what fWAR says, it's pretty clear that offense is simply valued more importantly. And Heyward is coming off a pretty unimpressive season offensively. Now you might suggest we shouldn't have traded him at his lowest point, and that would be a fair point, but the other option was to watch him walk in 12 months and get picks. This move still improves our roration for the short term and long term. It only hurts our offense in the short term, as Heyward would be gone next yr anyways.

Looking at what we got in return, it's actually pretty good value, though obviously not a steal for us. Miller is a good pitcher at the major league level. Think about what sort of package it would take for us to trade Minor, and multiply that by 10. Miller has the potential to be a top end starter and has 4 yrs of control left.

[TomahawkCult]

I would have rather shipped JUp and tried to keep Heyward, but hey ho. I don't like Heyward no longer being a Brave, but I can understand why. My 9 year old son, on the other hand, is gonna be well pissed off.

[bravesnumberone]

Agree it makes zero sense to say Heyward had to be traded, but then turn around and say Kimbrel is safe. You could get some good young offense back for him.

[drewdat]

Sometimes teams say a guy is unavailable as a negotiating tactic. I think.

[MadduxFanII]

If we're going to do this re-building thing, don't half-ass it. Go ahead and deal Justin, Gattis and Kimbrel. Cut BJ. The dumbest thing we could do would be to end it here and win 75 games next year while Upton and Gattis hit 45 meaningless home runs between them and Kimbrel accumulates another 35 meaningless saves while we die a little inside watching BJ Upton for another 140 games.

[Orphan Black]

While I don't love the trade I'm not as up-in-arms about it as most seem to be. Jason Heyward is basically a great defensive outfielder until he shows something else at the plate.

[Tapate50]

I think people are also overstating the actual value Heyward has. Despite what fWAR says, it's pretty clear that offense is simply valued more importantly. And Heyward is coming off a pretty unimpressive season offensively. Now you might suggest we shouldn't have traded him at his lowest point, and that would be a fair point, but the other option was to watch him walk in 12 months and get picks. This move still improves our roration for the short term and long term. It only hurts our offense in the short term, as Heyward would be gone next yr anyways.

Looking at what we got in return, it's actually pretty good value, though obviously not a steal for us. Miller is a good pitcher at the major league level. Think about what sort of package it would take for us to trade Minor, and multiply that by 10. Miller has the potential to be a top end starter and has 4 yrs of control left.

This is along my thinking as well. Teams will pay for potential, but won't give you a Tex like haul for a guy that hasn't come around yet.

His value is a controllable young SP with good stuff. Nothing wrong with that...

I like the prospect coming back too.

[Enscheff]

Agree it makes zero sense to say Heyward had to be traded, but then turn around and say Kimbrel is safe. You could get some good young offense back for him.

Kimbrel will be in Atlanta through 2018, so keeping him makes sense if the goal is to purge the roster of anyone that isn't projected to be a main contributor in 2017. That's probably why TLS was moved...he wasn't going to be a contributor in 2017 with Peraza at 2B.

Either JUp extends, or I imagine he's traded soon too.

[50PoundHead]

I'll be honest: I've been thinking a lot over the past year or so about dropping the Braves (and thus baseball) from the list of things I spend time worrying myself with as a spectator.

The first straw, for me, was the racist, suburban switch from a perfectly good stadium to a sparkly new one in an adjoining county. Sure, it may very well be good business, for them, but it left a nasty taste in my metaphorical mouth. But, I rationalized to myself, at least it will be good for the team on the field—and that's what I care about with respect to the Braves.

Now that same sparkly new stadium is being used as justification for another rebuild, right around the moment it felt like the last, post-Cox rebuilding just got some legs under it. And, honestly, I personally felt better about the direction of the team circa two months ago, at the end of the 2014 regular season than I do now—despite both that roster's and that management's warts—considering what I've seen, heard, and read from this new (but really pretty old) crew managing the latest round of rebuilding we're watching commence.

To top it off, from the perspective of my personal spectation: the first real shoe to drop is a trade of my favorite player—a kid I was elated to see the Braves draft, who I followed up the system, and who I really enjoyed watching—to the major-league team I despise most, and for a return whose quality leaves me feeling further skeptical about the evaluative capacities of the "new" regime.

There's more to come, I'm sure—and for the Braves sake, I hope the return on the younger Upton, Gattis, Kimbrel (if they're wise enough to trade him while they're at it), and whoever is a lot better than what the team received for Heyward. Nonetheless, it's certainly been enough to shake my desire to follow this (and thus any) club.

But I like baseball, and I like discussing baseball, so I'm not sure that just walking away is the best route, for me. At the moment, I'm seriously considering an alternative bargain: actively rooting against this team—at least for a few years.

Well, I know I wasn't thinking about you when I posted my snark.

It's tough times for the squad right now. I've watched a ton of baseball over the years and I think the entire Wren era was leading up to this point. He limped it from year-to-year without a blueprint and when he finally had money, he wasted it on the likes of M. Upton and C. Johnson. It's the same thing that happened in Baltimore, but somehow Wren gets off the hook for that debacle and it falls at the feet of Peter Angelos (who is an extremely intrusive owner). If you are a mid-market team in the current economic structure of baseball, you have to have a plan and stick to it. Wren simply kept rolling the dice.

The farm system is in a shambles and I won't call out the earlier poster who somehow think that the Braves just head out to the woodshed and pick up a #3 starter. We have nothing of the sort in the system right now above A ball. Sims will be in AA next year (as will likely be Jenkins). We lost 400+ innings of quality starting pitching and we just got back 200 at a reasonable price in terms of dollars, but probably not in terms of the talent exchanged.

In fairness to Wren, the last few years of Schuerholz' term as GM saw similar missteps.

I'm torn on Heyward. People can blame hitting coaches and the like, but the coach isn't the guy standing in the batters' box. Heyward is a superb athlete; probably one of the five to ten best in the entire game in terms of raw all-around tools. But--and I'm sure people will torture the stats enough to prove me wrong--his offensive production hasn't matched his tools over the past couple of years. Getting hit in the head has likely contributed to that. I think he's too jumpy in the batters' box and he lunges a bit, which negates his significant power potential. Curious to see if a change of scenery helps him. I wish him the best.

As for me, I've lived through so many bad Braves' teams from the 1970s and 1980s that if there is a downturn, it won't be anything new.

PS--We do save money here, but given the direction of baseball salaries, I don't know what we can get for $11 million. I'm thinking we are going to see some DFA-diving for a couple of OFs and hopefully a LHH guy who can play some 3B.

[Carp]

Well, he actually is 24.

His rookie year was solid, but nothing special. He is a decent young, middle of the rotation starter...which is fine. But, he was acquired for Jason Heyward.......and Jordan Walden.

Claiming that starting staff is the best in baseball is hilarious. You think that staff puts up an ERA around the 3 mark?

I believe I said if the Braves traded for Walker as well, it would be the best And yes, with that acquisition, I do. Currently, every single pitcher in the rotation has at least one season with an ERA close to 3.00 in over 150 innings pitched. Even your hate of Miller, he still had a 3.7 ERA this yr (and a great second half).

[Russ2dollas]

You think Hart goes to JUp and says gives us a reasonable extension or prepare to go to Seattle? :tchop:

Does this free us up to trade Minor? I guess Minor is in the top 3 pitchers.


Kimbrel will be in Atlanta through 2018, so keeping him makes sense if the goal is to purge the roster of anyone that isn't projected to be a main contributor in 2017. That's probably why TLS was moved...he wasn't going to be a contributor in 2017 with Peraza at 2B.

Either JUp extends, or I imagine he's traded soon too.

[gilesfan]

I believe I said if the Braves traded for Walker as well, it would be the best And yes, with that acquisition, I do. Currently, every single pitcher in the rotation has at least one season with an ERA close to 3.00 in over 150 innings pitched. Even your hate of Miller, he still had a 3.7 ERA this yr (and a great second half).


So basically everyone will have a career year in order to even be in contention for best rotation?

[Millwood1Hitter]

Well, I know I wasn't thinking about you when I posted my snark.

It's tough times for the squad right now. I've watched a ton of baseball over the years and I think the entire Wren era was leading up to this point. He limped it from year-to-year without a blueprint and when he finally had money, he wasted it on the likes of M. Upton and C. Johnson. It's the same thing that happened in Baltimore, but somehow Wren gets off the hook for that debacle and it falls at the feet of Peter Angelos (who is an extremely intrusive owner). If you are a mid-market team in the current economic structure of baseball, you have to have a plan and stick to it. Wren simply kept rolling the dice.

The farm system is in a shambles and I won't call out the earlier poster who somehow think that the Braves just head out to the woodshed and pick up a #3 starter. We have nothing of the sort in the system right now above A ball. Sims will be in AA next year (as will likely be Jenkins). We lost 400+ innings of quality starting pitching and we just got back 200 at a reasonable price in terms of dollars, but probably not in terms of the talent exchanged.

In fairness to Wren, the last few years of Schuerholz' term as GM saw similar missteps.

I'm torn on Heyward. People can blame hitting coaches and the like, but the coach isn't the guy standing in the batters' box. Heyward is a superb athlete; probably one of the five to ten best in the entire game in terms of raw all-around tools. But--and I'm sure people will torture the stats enough to prove me wrong--his offensive production hasn't matched his tools over the past couple of years. Getting hit in the head has likely contributed to that. I think he's too jumpy in the batters' box and he lunges a bit, which negates his significant power potential. Curious to see if a change of scenery helps him. I wish him the best.

As for me, I've lived through so many bad Braves' teams from the 1970s and 1980s that if there is a downturn, it won't be anything new.

Well said.

[Tapate50]

Agree it makes zero sense to say Heyward had to be traded, but then turn around and say Kimbrel is safe. You could get some good young offense back for him.

Heyward didn't HAVE to be traded. If he had signed or negotiated with ATL on an extension then he would still be here.

I don't disagree on Kimbrel though. I would think Detroit would tolerate BJ if they had Kimbrel in the playoffs or in September. There is your money for Lester\Hamels and Moncada.

[Carp]

If we're going to do this re-building thing, don't half-ass it. Go ahead and deal Justin, Gattis and Kimbrel. Cut BJ. The dumbest thing we could do would be to end it here and win 75 games next year while Upton and Gattis hit 45 meaningless home runs between them and Kimbrel accumulates another 35 meaningless saves while we die a little inside watching BJ Upton for another 140 games.

I don't agree with the Kimbrell part. I honestly just don't see a team willing to give us a decent value for him. Relievers (even the best ones) don't typically bring back all that great returns. So trading Kimbrell would essentially be a salary dump and nothing more.

[Gary82]

Welp.

Obviously the Braves didn't feel like Heyward was going to re-sign. Mainly because the Braves were not willing to pay him for what he thought he was worth.

So we got Shelby Miller. Erratic, and unreliable and just a complete unknown at this point.

We just became worse as a team. It looks like the next few years could be bleak, but the winter is young. I'm sure we can get fleeced in a Justin Upton deal.

[Carp]

So basically everyone will have a career year in order to even be in contention for best rotation?

Or just, you know, have repeat yrs of stuff they've done within the last 18 months.

[NYCBrave]

You have to believe that Atlanta was 100% sure Heyward was not going to sign at a reasonable rate with us, and we didn't have a shot to keep him.

[NYCBrave]

Welp.

Obviously the Braves didn't feel like Heyward was going to re-sign. Mainly because the Braves were not willing to pay him for what he thought he was worth.

So we got Shelby Miller. Erratic, and unreliable and just a complete unknown at this point.

We just became worse as a team. It looks like the next few years could be bleak, but the winter is young. I'm sure we can get fleeced in a Justin Upton deal.

I actually think Upton would bring a greater return than Heyward, so let's wait and see.

[Tapate50]

I actually think Upton would bring a greater return than Heyward, so let's wait and see.

I would think so as well.

[emk418]

My fear is that Hart is too pitching hungry. I think we have a chance to have an excellent rotation long term with Teheran, Miller, Wood, Minor and Sims/Jenkins eventually. IF (i'm not saying I want to) but if we trade Justin we HAVE to get back position players.

[AerchAngel]

I just turned on the net and WHAT DA FUUUUUUCKKK!!!

It has to be a bad dream, it has to be. Game over man, game over.

[chipchildress]

I think people are also overstating the actual value Heyward has. Despite what fWAR says, it's pretty clear that offense is simply valued more importantly. And Heyward is coming off a pretty unimpressive season offensively. Now you might suggest we shouldn't have traded him at his lowest point, and that would be a fair point, but the other option was to watch him walk in 12 months and get picks. This move still improves our roration for the short term and long term. It only hurts our offense in the short term, as Heyward would be gone next yr anyways.

Looking at what we got in return, it's actually pretty good value, though obviously not a steal for us. Miller is a good pitcher at the major league level. Think about what sort of package it would take for us to trade Minor, and multiply that by 10. Miller has the potential to be a top end starter and has 4 yrs of control left.

I'm not so sure this hurts the offense at all. Let's be honest folks...Heyward is average at best offensively. That may change, but for now it is the truth. He may be a defensive stopper, but if you can't score, who cares. Good riddance.

[jpx7]

Well, I know I wasn't thinking about you when I posted my snark.

I didn't think so—but since the subject of "walking away" was raised, it felt like a good juncture to air out some thoughts.


As for me, I've lived through so many bad Braves' teams from the 1970s and 1980s that if there is a downturn, it won't be anything new.

For me, it's not an issue of the Braves being bad for a few years; that I could wait out. I just fundamentally lack faith in the current John Hart regime. I'm not sure I buy that the man put in charge of taking the club fully into the wilderness has the right plan to take the club back out.

Honestly, it just feels like more "Schuerholz as usual"—and while as a general manager he did some great things, his missteps were often obscured, and his hegemony in the organization may not be the boon some might assume. Certainly, I was initially skeptical of Wren because he was a sort of pro forma appointed successor to Schuerholz, handpicked without much thought (seemingly) of looking outside the organization for fresh perspectives; by replacing him with Hart, the Braves seem to be doubling down on that idea, meanwhile conveniently inuring Schuerholz from any and all culpability in the errors of his previous pro forma appointed successor.

Maybe the good-old-boys triumvirate will prevail in the end; maybe Hart really is just making the unpopular decision to raze the slate for the young guy they're grooming; or maybe things won't work out and the Braves' nebulous ownership will really clean house if this team is still going nowhere in the first few years of the sparkly new suburban stadium. But I'm skeptical—and it's hard to say anymore I'm unequivocally rooting for these guys just because they're managing the Braves' front-office.

[skillet]

Reading the Cardinals boards, they seem about as negative on the trade as the majority of posters here. Here is one poster which is fairly indicative of the majority of Cardinal responses:

4 years of Shelby when he had finally started to turn it around at the end of the year by using his breaking ball.

6+ years of Jenkins, who in the AFL really looks like he's on the verge of making it to the bigs and become a star.

FOR

1 year of a RF, who in the last two years has almost 1000 PA's and only has 25 HR's and less than 100 RBI..... and a career OPS of .781. And, oh yeah, he can't hit LHP to save his life!

and.....
2 years of a RP who could have been EASILY found on the FA market for a 2 yr/12M deal......

WHAT THE HECK JUST HAPPENED? Did Mo lose his mind???? Does he feel bad for the Cards getting Waino years ago?

Of all the trade "targets" we had heard about, this is 100% the one I was the least interested in AND he gave up MILLER AND JENKINS???

That package would have easily gotten them CarGo or Justin Upton who aren't limited to play against RHP only and could start to help the severe lack of power.....

To sum it up, AWFUL, HORRIBLE TRADE AND OVERPAY. WOW MO, WOW.....

[weso1]

Jenkins is a ways away, but appears to be healthy again, having pitched in the Arizona Fall League.

Here's a piece on him: http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2014/11/5/7152763/arizona-fall-league-update-rhp-tyrell-jenkins

Certainly seems to have good stuff. After looking at the numbers and watching the video I'm surprised to see his k rate so low. Maybe he'll pull a Teheran and suddenly start striking guys out like I think he should.

[thewupk]

I'm not so sure this hurts the offense at all. Let's be honest folks...Heyward is average at best offensively. That may change, but for now it is the truth. He may be a defensive stopper, but if you can't score, who cares. Good riddance.

really? the team is going to replace a wrc+ 120 hitter with someone likely below 100. The Braves will score the fewest runs in baseball in 2015.

[Tapate50]

#Braves Hart on JUpton: "As we sit here today, there certainly is a good chance Justin is back with us next year.”

[Russ2dollas]

I agree that I don't think we're as pitching deficient as Hart thinks. We have guys and we have shown we can develop guys. With the money they saved on this trade they should be able to land a solid starter.

Can we get someone who can hit?

[Tapate50]

Hart said #Braves have talked to Gattis about move to LF and that he's onboard with whatever they want him to do.

[jpx7]

#Braves Hart on JUpton: "As we sit here today, there certainly is a good chance Justin is back with us next year.”

Maybe he's posturing; maybe he's more willing to pay for power than defense, when it comes to outfielders. I'm betting the former.

[Tapate50]

Maybe he's posturing; maybe he's more willing to pay for power than defense, when it comes to outfielders. I'm betting the former.


Maybe Justin and Jhey didn't like each other and Justin was all like "I'll sign an extension, if you trade that scrub making all those slidin catches in RF makin' me look all bad with the leather" and Hart was like "Dog, I got ya back, consider it done" and then they did some type of jive handshake that lasted for way too long.

Maybe.