Braves donate Justin Upton to Padres for prospects

[mikewon]

Hadn't seen this posted...

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/11/braves-shopping-justin-upton-asking-price-higher-than-heyward.html

[zitothebrave]

Might as well shop Freddie too. We're going nowhere. Might as well plan for 2020.

[cajunrevenge]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOMED.

[Enscheff]

If something like Walker from Seattle is the return, and then Hart goes out and signs Tomas, this could end up being a pretty good offseason as far as reloading the organization with young talent is concerned.

[thethe]

Might as well shop Freddie too. We're going nowhere. Might as well plan for 2020.

If you find a way to trade Upton for Walker/Miller or Taylor and then you sign Tomas then I think we are in a pretty good spot honestly.

[thethe]

If something like Walker from Seattle is the return, and then Hart goes out and signs Tomas, this could end up being a pretty good offseason as far as reloading the organization with young talent is concerned.

I'd like to get more than just Walker. Get Chris Taylor in the deal as well or Gab Guerrero.

[keithlaw]

I'd like to get more than just Walker. Get Chris Taylor in the deal as well or Gab Guerrero.

Total Annihilation was great, but I don't see how Chris Taylor will help us win baseball games.

[nsacpi]

It will be interesting to see what Justin brings relative to Jason. It would be one more data point on how teams value defense relative to offense.

[gilesfan]

If you find a way to trade Upton for Walker/Miller or Taylor and then you sign Tomas then I think we are in a pretty good spot honestly.

Excepting for having guys that can hit and relievers before the 9th inning.

[mossy]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOMED.

Sadly, we might just be.

[Dalyn]

Getting to watch Justin has nearly made up for having to watch his brother. If we do trade him, and I think we will, I hope he goes on to have a great career.

[BRule]

Might as well shop Freddie too. We're going nowhere. Might as well plan for 2020.

Should have traded Freddie and kept Heyward.

[bravebonebook]

Maybe this is all really being done just to piss off Terence Moore...

[thethe]

Should have traded Freddie and kept Heyward.

Heyward would have been here if he didn't want to get paid like a superstar.

[BRule]

Heyward would have been here if he didn't want to get paid like a superstar.

He wasn't offered a contract, so you can't really say that....despite what the rumors are. You have no way to know what Jason would have said if we offered him a contract with T, Freddie, Simmons. Rumors are rumors and they might be from good sources but those rumors are after we never offered him a contract.

[thethe]

He wasn't offered a contract, so you can't really say that....despite what the rumors are. You have no way to know what Jason would have said if we offered him a contract with T, Freddie, Simmons. Rumors are rumors and they might be from good sources but those rumors are after we never offered him a contract.

Well I believe what ramadon posted on here so I guess to each his own.

[Hawk]

Well I believe what ramadon posted on here so I guess to each his own.

Ramadon never said that the Braves made Heyward an offer.

[Tapate50]

Good lord people

[thethe]

Good lord people

You're right...I shouldn't have even responded.

[50PoundHead]

From the get-go, I thought it would make more sense to shop J. Upton before Heyward because the return would be higher and the team would have a better idea after that trade as to what needs were and how those needs could be balanced with the current number of movable assets. Seems they got things a little backward. I could live with a draft pick for one of the two, but not for both of the two. Seems to be a bit of an overreaction and impatience.

[50PoundHead]

He wasn't offered a contract, so you can't really say that....despite what the rumors are. You have no way to know what Jason would have said if we offered him a contract with T, Freddie, Simmons. Rumors are rumors and they might be from good sources but those rumors are after we never offered him a contract.

I think both sides knew the parameters of what each side would be willing to offer/sign. This isn't a take it or leave it business, but if the Stanton contract is the new normal for top-end players, Heyward wanted to at least be in the low-rent part of that neighborhood.

PS--I should amend that to "Heyward likely wanted." We don't know what he wants exactly.

[Hawk]

You're right...I shouldn't have even responded.

It's fine for you to have the opinion that you do -- you aren't the only one.

But before you go around making baseless claims, you at least owe it to everybody who is reading to get your facts straight.

JMO.

[gtcway]

He wasn't offered a contract, so you can't really say that....despite what the rumors are. You have no way to know what Jason would have said if we offered him a contract with T, Freddie, Simmons. Rumors are rumors and they might be from good sources but those rumors are after we never offered him a contract.

What's the point of offering a contract if his agent told the Braves that without an offer of at least 220 million, he would become a free agent? Not saying that's exactly what happened, but it seems likely what did.

[thethe]

It's fine for you to have the opinion that you do -- you aren't the only one.

But before you go around making baseless claims, you at least owe it to everybody who is reading to get your facts straight.

And I never said that Jason turned down a contract offer so please don't make baseless claims about what I said.

[gilesfan]

This board will explode when Jason extents with Stl for 6 years, 120 million.

[Hawk]

He wasn't offered a contract, so you can't really say that....despite what the rumors are. You have no way to know what Jason would have said if we offered him a contract with T, Freddie, Simmons. Rumors are rumors and they might be from good sources but those rumors are after we never offered him a contract.


Well I believe what ramadon posted on here so I guess to each his own.

The implication could not be more clear cut.

If you want to try to wriggle away (on the basis of 'well, I didn't actually say that') now that you've been called out, fine.

[BRule]

What's the point of offering a contract if his agent told the Braves that without an offer of at least 220 million, he would become a free agent? Not saying that's exactly what happened, but it seems likely what did.

Because you can say whatever you want but if someone offers you 150 mil, it's hard to say no. Granted Jason might have said no and probably would have BUT at least we would have tried and made offer.....rather than just throwing our hands up and saying "yeah he wasn't signing with us"

[sentenza]

This board will explode when Jason extents with Stl for 6 years, 120 million.

I think St. Louis can't and won't pay this. On their board they hate the trade, because they think Jason will be there only this season.

[Hawk]

Because you can say whatever you want but if someone offers you 150 mil, it's hard to say no. Granted Jason might have said no and probably would have BUT at least we would have tried and made offer.....rather than just throwing our hands up and saying "yeah he wasn't signing with us"

Precisely.

Why is this so hard to understand? Red Sox did this with Lester last offseason.

Although I'm beginning to wonder, more and more, if the Braves FO simply didn't like Heyward. It makes more sense than any of these other half-baked scenarios floating around.

[thethe]

The implication could not be more clear cut.

If you want to try to wriggle away (on the basis of 'well, I didn't actually say that') now that you've been called out, fine.

I didn't actually say that Jason turned down a contract and neither did ramadon. I'm not even sure what you are accusing me of trying to wiggle away from.

[Hawk]

I didn't actually say that Jason turned down a contract and neither did ramadon. I'm not even sure what you are accusing me of trying to wiggle away from.

Ok.

[sentenza]

When we trade JUp, will we then keep Gattis this season? Or will we trade him, too?

[gilesfan]

Heyward would have been here if he didn't want to get paid like a superstar.

Heyward would be here if he didn't want to get paid what someone will pay him.

[thethe]

Heyward would be here if he didn't want to get paid what someone will pay him.

agreed

[Ampere]

Dave Cameron made a compelling argument (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/justin-upton-shouldnt-cost-more-than-jason-heyward/) on fangraphs that Upton should not cost more then Heyward.

[Enscheff]

I'd like to get more than just Walker. Get Chris Taylor in the deal as well or Gab Guerrero.

I honestly think Hart will be lucky to get Walker or Paxton for 1 year of JUp. Remember, the Cards "loved" Heyward and only gave up Shelby Miller for him.

I would imagine Heyward and JUp have very similar trade values right now (Heyward is cheaper with a better all around game, JUp with the most coveted RH power), so if Hart gets Walker plus anything else for JUp he should be lauded.

[Dalyn]

Dave Cameron made a compelling argument (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/justin-upton-shouldnt-cost-more-than-jason-heyward/) on fangraphs that Upton should not cost more then Heyward.

No team out there thinks they can get Justin Upton for less than Miller and Jenkins. Come on...

[Braves1976]

No team out there thinks they can get Justin Upton for less than Miller and Jenkins. Come on...

Plus another point made in the comments of that article is that Cameron is bias towards the M's (and the M's are the team that seems to be the most interested in trading for Justin Upton).

[cajunrevenge]

I like the idea of trading Justin for Walker but I want a little quantity to go with trading Justin and Heyward. I want at least a couple marginal prospects thrown in. We need the depth.

If I am Hart I am trying to expand the deal to get them to take Chris Johnson and/or include DJ Peterson without giving up any of our core players. Maybe something like Justin/Johnson/Gattis for Walker/Peterson/Gurrero/Kivlehan. High price to pay but it would make the Mariners instant world series favorites.

[thethe]

I like the idea of trading Justin for Walker but I want a little quantity to go with trading Justin and Heyward. I want at least a couple marginal prospects thrown in. We need the depth.

The depth of the organization won't start again for another three years.

[ramadon101]

Precisely.

Why is this so hard to understand? Red Sox did this with Lester last offseason.

Although I'm beginning to wonder, more and more, if the Braves FO simply didn't like Heyward. It makes more sense than any of these other half-baked scenarios floating around.

Seriously? The FO really liked Heyward- it simply came down to doing what was in both his best and the team's best interests. How difficult is that to understand? I speak with lateral partners all the time and if the delta in their salary expectations vis a vis our projected salary figures are that disparate, we won't "make the offer" because it's a complete waste of both side's time. That is exactly what happened in this instance; it was made very clear that Heyward wanted to be in a much, much higher range of compensation than we were willing to go and both sides just handled themselves professionally by saying thank you and moving on.

Get over the drama already. I'm telling you what happened.

[cajunrevenge]

The depth of the organization won't start again for another three years.

I have no idea what you mean. If you are saying we won't have depth for 3 more years then are we not agreeing that we need to add some depth?

[thethe]

I have no idea what you mean. If you are saying we won't have depth for 3 more years then are we not agreeing that we need to add some depth?

Well I don't believe we should worry about depth when trading these players because it dilutes the potential value of the impact player back. I would just make usre that we get 1 of Walker/paxton. Anything above that is just gravy.

[thethe]

Seriously? The FO really liked Heyward- it simply came down to doing what was in both his best and the team's best interests. How difficult is that to understand? I speak with lateral partners all the time and if the delta in their salary expectations vis a vis our projected salary figures are that disparate, we won't "make the offer" because it's a complete waste of both side's time. That is exactly what happened in this instance; it was made very clear that Heyward wanted to be in a much, much higher range of compensation than we were willing to go and both sides just handled themselves professionally by saying thank you and moving on.

Get over the drama already. I'm telling you what happened.

The Heyward fans/FO bashers just do not want to hear it.

I appreciate you providing your insight to the discussion and hope you choose to provide your input moving forward. Its a great asset to the community.

[Millwood1Hitter]

The Heyward fans/FO bashers just do not want to hear it.

I appreciate you providing your insight to the discussion and hope you choose to provide your input moving forward. Its a great asset to the community.

Yep, agree completely 100%.

There is no doubt that the Braves and the FO wanted to keep Heyward, but with financial restraints and commitments to too much dead weight already on the roster, we had to do what we had to do, and look at the big picture.

[gilesfan]

Its pretty clear Heyward is worth more than the Braves were willing to pay. The argument is if he's worth the money that he wanted to be paid. If not, is the return enough to justify disposing of Heyward?

[TURBO]

Might be a rough year for us. I love my Braves and will always root for them, but this may be the first time in a few years that I dont buy some kind of MLB package.

[Hawk]

Nm. Against my better judgment.

[Enscheff]

Its pretty clear Heyward is worth more than the Braves were willing to pay. The argument is if he's worth the money that he wanted to be paid. If not, is the return enough to justify disposing of Heyward?

That's not really the whole argument. The Braves with Heyward, JUp, and TLS are probably good enough to compete in 2015 with a few tweaks such as a couple mid-tier SPs, an upgrade in the OF that slid Heyward to CF, and a LHed bench bat to compliment CJ. Those additions probably make the Braves an 85+ win team and contenders for a WC slot.

The problem is that taking a shot (and a pretty weak shot at that) in 2015 means the team faces a serious rebuild in 2016 and beyond after both Heyward and JUp leave for nothing but the 30th and 31st pick in the draft. A total rebuild wouldn't be the end of the world, except for the fact that a brand new ballpark is being opened in 2017, and the Braves absolutely MUST be contenders at that time.

Being competitive in 2017 trumps any other consideration for the Braves franchise at this time. No move can be made over the next 2 years that doesn't increase the team's chance to compete in 2017.

Therefore, Heyward and JUp must either be extended through 2017, or traded for assets that will help the MLB team by 2017. Since Heyward was deemed impossible to extend, he was traded for such assets. If JUp can't be extended, he too will be swapped for 2017 assets.

This FO most definitely has a plan...to be competitive in 2017 at all costs.

[GovClintonTyree]

If you find a way to trade Upton for Walker/Miller or Taylor and then you sign Tomas then I think we are in a pretty good spot honestly.

I think so. That doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

I do prefer Paxton to Walker and Miller (for our purposes) to Taylor, but the general idea is great.

As an aside, I'd be thrilled if we could somehow expand that deal to include Michael Saunders. Wouldn't take much more, he's fallen out of favor with Jack Z. Which doesn't necessarily mean anything, since Z is arbitrary and capricious.

[GovClintonTyree]

The more I think about this, the more I like it. Seattle would wet themselves for Gattis, and we know they love JUpton. And they might pay him. And they might accept Mel as part of the price for the other two. We could kick in $5m of Mel if that got it done. Maybe you could do something like:

JUpton
MUpton + some cash (if needed) and
Gattis

For

Paxton/Walker
Miller/Taylor
Saunders

And sign Tomas. That would leave us with one 30 HR stiff, a solid CF, a young LH power bat who could play 2B or 3B with 3 yrs control left, 5-6 yrs worth of a pitching stud for one year of Fat Upton - and Melvin off the books.

Do it, John.

[Enscheff]

The more I think about this, the more I like it. Seattle would wet themselves for Gattis, and we know they love JUpton. And they might pay him. And they might accept Mel as part of the price for the other two. We could kick in $5m of Mel if that got it done. Maybe you could do something like:

JUpton
MUpton + some cash (if needed) and
Gattis

For

Paxton/Walker
Miller/Taylor
Saunders

And sign Tomas. That would leave us with one 30 HR stiff, a solid CF, a young LH power bat who could play 2B or 3B with 3 yrs control left, 5-6 yrs worth of a pitching stud for one year of Fat Upton - and Melvin off the books.

Do it, John.

Umm..

The Braves would have to send Gattis and cash just to get the M's to take BJ, leaving the trade as JUp for 3 young quality players. That isn't even a remotely plausible trade.

Again, JUp is probably worth approximately one of Walker or Paxton (something minor might be added by either or both sides). If Hart sends both JUp and Gattis to Seattle (without BJ) he might be able to get that type of package from the Ms.

[Heyward]

If they could sign Tomas, and get Paxton or Walker and an IF prospect for Upton, that would be a decent offseason.

Young, talented rotation.

And some cap room to add a few bats.

[Heyward]

If ramadon is right, there is no way Heyward is signing 6/120, especially since fangraphs said he's getting 200+

Cards will make him a good offer i'm sure but they'll have to blow his socks off for him to not to at least test FA.

[Heyward]

This board will explode when Jason extents with Stl for 6 years, 120 million.

extends *

And no way he's signing for that before FA.

[JohnAdcox]

The Heyward fans/FO bashers just do not want to hear it.

This is correct. Frankly, unless we get Stanton, Trout, Price, and Kershaw for, say, BJ, Johnson, and the released Uggla, I fully intend to stay miffed for the foreseeable future.

Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing.

Because in a lot of ways, the trade makes perfect sense. And it's also clear that I don't see the endgame. I admit that. And you know what? I don't care. Not even a little. No, I can't justify that. Don't intend to try. I DON'T root for laundry, and Jason Hayward entertained me. I liked the way he represented the team and my hometown, and I have no intention of being talked out of it with all your fancy "facts" and "logic." Yes, I can be downright Republican at times (a sentence I never dreamed I'd type.)

Baseball is a business to the people in the business. To the fans, it's a passion. The day that's no longer true is the day we stop tuning in and stop buying tickets. Until then, we Heyward fans are going to whine. And we're bloody well going to enjoy it.

[GovClintonTyree]

Umm..

The Braves would have to send Gattis and cash just to get the M's to take BJ, leaving the trade as JUp for 3 young quality players. That isn't even a remotely plausible trade.

Again, JUp is probably worth approximately one of Walker or Paxton (something minor might be added by either or both sides). If Hart sends both JUp and Gattis to Seattle (without BJ) he might be able to get that type of package from the Ms.

I think the pitcher plus one of the young infielders is plausible. And I happ to be aware that the boss wants to unload Saunders. Eating a little cash on Mel plus Gattis makes that half plausible.

I think we disagree a little bit on what Upton could bring. And I really think Saunders can be had for not much. If we had to adjust with another player/prospect, fine. But don't think Seattle wouldn't be very interested if you offered them both big boys.

[bravesnumberone]

Heyward would have been here if he didn't want to get paid like a superstar.

Yet we were meeting with a pitcher to get paid like a superstar and play one-fifth of the games Heyward would.

[50PoundHead]

Its pretty clear Heyward is worth more than the Braves were willing to pay. The argument is if he's worth the money that he wanted to be paid. If not, is the return enough to justify disposing of Heyward?

It's a battle of subjective stances. We don't know what the market will bear for Heyward because he hasn't been on the open market. Braves think he was worth what they were planning to offer. Heyward thinks he is worth what he is going to ask for.

Unless he really blows up in St. Louis and the Cards open the bank (and by really blowing up, I'm saying his power gets back to where it was with no erosion in other aspects of his game), my guess is he'll hit the open market.

[GovClintonTyree]

Who gives a **** about Heyward? The thread is about Upton and Heyward is a Cardinal.

[Tapate50]

This is correct. Frankly, unless we get Stanton, Trout, Price, and Kershaw for, say, BJ, Johnson, and the released Uggla, I fully intend to stay miffed for the foreseeable future.

Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing.

Because in a lot of ways, the trade makes perfect sense. And it's also clear that I don't see the endgame. I admit that. And you know what? I don't care. Not even a little. No, I can't justify that. Don't intend to try. I DON'T root for laundry, and Jason Hayward entertained me. I liked the way he represented the team and my hometown, and I have no intention of being talked out of it with all your fancy "facts" and "logic." Yes, I can be downright Republican at times (a sentence I never dreamed I'd type.)

Baseball is a business to the people in the business. To the fans, it's a passion. The day that's no longer true is the day we stop tuning in and stop buying tickets. Until then, we Heyward fans are going to whine. And we're bloody well going to enjoy it.

At least your honest

[Enscheff]

I think the pitcher plus one of the young infielders is plausible. And I happ to be aware that the boss wants to unload Saunders. Eating a little cash on Mel plus Gattis makes that half plausible.

I think we disagree a little bit on what Upton could bring. And I really think Saunders can be had for not much. If we had to adjust with another player/prospect, fine. But don't think Seattle wouldn't be very interested if you offered them both big boys.

Even DOB states the Ms are not going to give up Walker for 1 year of JUp:

http://emeraldcityswagger.com/2014/11/21/mariners-trade-rumors-ms-linked-justin-upton/

And I think they are right...6 years of Walker is worth more than 1 year of JUp at $14M. Seattle does have other pieces that would interest the Braves though. The young IFers Miller and Taylor as well as their current RFer Saunders. Miller hits LHed, so I think he would be the target so he could platoon with Goss and CJ at 2B and 3B until Peraza is ready.

I think a trade along the lines of Gattis/JUp for Walker/Miller/Saunders makes a lot of sense. Walker completes the rotation, Miller plays 2B/3B, and Saunders replaces Heyward in RF. The Braves could then sign Tomas for LF.

This makes a lineup towards the end of 2015 and beyond of:

C - CB
1B - Freeman
2B - Peraza
3B - Miller/CB
SS - Simmons
LF - Tomas
CF - Saunders/who knows
RF - who knows/Saunders
Bench - Goss, BJ, backup C, LHed hitter
Rotation - Teheran, Wood, Walker, Minor, Miller

[GovClintonTyree]

Even DOB states the Ms are not going to give up Walker for 1 year of JUp:

http://emeraldcityswagger.com/2014/11/21/mariners-trade-rumors-ms-linked-justin-upton/

And I think they are right...6 years of Walker is worth more than 1 year of JUp at $14M. Seattle does have other pieces that would interest the Braves though. The young IFers Miller and Taylor as well as their current RFer Saunders. Miller hits LHed, so I think he would be the target so he could platoon with Goss and CJ at 2B and 3B until Peraza is ready.

I think a trade long the lines of Gattis/JUp for Walker/Miller/Saunders makes a lot of sense. Walker completes the rotation, Miller plays 2B/3B, and Saunders replaces Heyward in RF. The Braves could then sign Tomas for LF.

Well, you get four years of controlled RH power if you're the Mariners. That's worth more than IF and Saunders.

Saunders played RF, but is a CF. Above average in CF.

[CJC]

I have no intention of being talked out of it with all your fancy "facts" and "logic." Yes, I can be downright Republican at times (a sentence I never dreamed I'd type.)

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hawk]

Even DOB states the Ms are not going to give up Walker for 1 year of JUp

Slight overstatement.

"top pitching prospect TWalker isn't untouchable for #Mariners, it sounds like. But probably take more than 1-yr of JUp to get him." -- DOB

Seattle could very well come around around and make the trade straight-up, it's still early days.

I would hope that we wouldn't need to include Gattis just to secure Walker. Saunders and Miller are nice pieces, but Gattis could potentially command premium talent (which they are not.)

[GovClintonTyree]

Even DOB states the Ms are not going to give up Walker for 1 year of JUp:

http://emeraldcityswagger.com/2014/11/21/mariners-trade-rumors-ms-linked-justin-upton/

And I think they are right...6 years of Walker is worth more than 1 year of JUp at $14M. Seattle does have other pieces that would interest the Braves though. The young IFers Miller and Taylor as well as their current RFer Saunders. Miller hits LHed, so I think he would be the target so he could platoon with Goss and CJ at 2B and 3B until Peraza is ready.

I think a trade along the lines of Gattis/JUp for Walker/Miller/Saunders makes a lot of sense. Walker completes the rotation, Miller plays 2B/3B, and Saunders replaces Heyward in RF. The Braves could then sign Tomas for LF.

This makes a lineup towards the end of 2015 and beyond of:

C - CB
1B - Freeman
2B - Peraza
3B - Miller/CB
SS - Simmons
LF - Tomas
CF - Saunders/who knows
RF - who knows/Saunders
Bench - Goss, BJ, backup C, LHed hitter
Rotation - Teheran, Wood, Walker, Minor, Miller

The article you cite is by the Mariners' blog writer and his premise is that Saunders and Upton are equal players.

Perhaps he's the Mariners version of Shanks.

[50PoundHead]

Who gives a **** about Heyward? The thread is about Upton and Heyward is a Cardinal.

I never realized that he'd studied to be a priest.

[GovClintonTyree]

Slight overstatement.

"top pitching prospect TWalker isn't untouchable for #Mariners, it sounds like. But probably take more than 1-yr of JUp to get him." -- DOB

Seattle could very well come around around and make the trade straight-up, it's still early days.

I would hope that we wouldn't need to include Gattis just to secure Walker. Saunders and Miller are nice pieces, but Gattis could potentially command premium talent (which they are not.)

...but if Gattis gets you some secondary help, firms up Walker and helps you offload Melvin, I think you grit your teeth and do it.

[CrimsonCowboy]

SB Nation write-up

http://www.talkingchop.com/2014/11/21/7265305/justin-upton-yasmany-tomas-braves-mlb-trade-rumors-mariners-astros-rangers

Mentions the Rangers and Astros as possibilities.

[Heyward]

Probably not getting Walker straight up but if the M's want him bad enough....

[GovClintonTyree]

Probably not getting Walker straight up but if the M's want him bad enough....

I think they do. They match up great, too, if we want to do a bigger deal.

[thethe]

Yet we were meeting with a pitcher to get paid like a superstar and play one-fifth of the games Heyward would.

Pitchers face more batters in a season than a position player gets at bast

[Dalyn]

Who gives a **** about Heyward? The thread is about Upton and Heyward is a Cardinal.

You don't amputate someone's arm and then decide you want to talk about shoes and get pissed when they still want to talk about their arm. Not this soon. At least wait until they learn to tie their shoelaces with one hand.

[Dalyn]

Pitchers face more batters in a season than a position player gets at bast

http://www.goodvibesguy.co.uk/images/Goddess_Bast_Empowerment.jpg?699

[blueagleace1]

Yet we were meeting with a pitcher to get paid like a superstar and play one-fifth of the games Heyward would.

Jason Heyward- 649 PA
Jon Lester- 885 BF

[emk418]

Honestly, I think a dream scenario is trading Justin to the Mariners for Walker then signing Tomas. That's great short and long term value.

[Heyward]

Honestly, I think a dream scenario is trading Justin to the Mariners for Walker then signing Tomas. That's great short and long term value.

That could be the plan, whether it happens is another story.

[BremanFan88]

Honestly, I think a dream scenario is trading Justin to the Mariners for Walker then signing Tomas. That's great short and long term value.

Seems to me the Braves have put a lot of effort into hoping dream scenarios come true. An interesting way to run a franchise.

[bravesnumberone]

Pitchers face more batters in a season than a position player gets at bast

Heyward plays defense as well.

Still waiting to hear what sense it makes to be meeting with a 31-year-old pitcher that will command north of 20 million when we're apparently trying to unload money and aren't interested in being good the next two years.

[emk418]

Slight overstatement.

"top pitching prospect TWalker isn't untouchable for #Mariners, it sounds like. But probably take more than 1-yr of JUp to get him." -- DOB

Seattle could very well come around around and make the trade straight-up, it's still early days.

I would hope that we wouldn't need to include Gattis just to secure Walker. Saunders and Miller are nice pieces, but Gattis could potentially command premium talent (which they are not.)

If we're signing Tomas I'd be fine adding another piece with Justin for Walker. Not sure what shape their bullpen is in but maybe David Carpenter as a start? I wonder if they would have any interest in CJ.

[GovClintonTyree]

If we're signing Tomas I'd be fine adding another piece with Justin for Walker. Not sure what shape their bullpen is in but maybe David Carpenter as a start? I wonder if they would have any interest in CJ.

Their bullpen is arguably the best in baseball.

[Hawk]

One thing to keep in mind is that Jack Zduriencik is just about out of rope in Seattle. The organization has made some huge investments (Cano, King Felix) in recent years that very much puts them in the 'win now' frame of mind.

[GovClintonTyree]

One thing to keep in mind is that Jack Zduriencik is just about out of rope in Seattle. The organization has made some huge investments (Cano, King Felix) in recent years that very much puts them in the 'win now' frame of mind.

This is very true. And he's two RH bats short.

Hm.

Double points for spelling " Zduriencik" correctly.

[emk418]

This is very true. And he's two RH bats short.

Hm.

Double points for spelling " Zduriencik" correctly.

So take CJ with Upton.

[Hawk]

So take CJ with Upton.

But they have Seager.

[GovClintonTyree]

So take CJ with Upton.

As much as we'd love that, they've got a gold glove silver slugger 3B named Seager at 3B. Maybe they could move CJ and his glove to SS.

[GovClintonTyree]

So take CJ with Upton.

I am ok moving Gattis if he takes Mel with him.

[Runnin]

Who gives a **** about Heyward? The thread is about Upton and Heyward is a Cardinal.
People will still be yammering about Heyward 2 stadiums from now.

[thethe]

Heyward plays defense as well.

Still waiting to hear what sense it makes to be meeting with a 31-year-old pitcher that will command north of 20 million when we're apparently trying to unload money and aren't interested in being good the next two years.

I wouldn't give Lester big money either but the notion that everyday hitters are more valueable than pitchers is a fallacy. If you want to throw the argument in that there is much more injury risk then I won't disagree. But, a pitcher's value can certainly exceed a positional players.

[thethe]

One thing to keep in mind is that Jack Zduriencik is just about out of rope in Seattle. The organization has made some huge investments (Cano, King Felix) in recent years that very much puts them in the 'win now' frame of mind.

Excellent point.

[Chico]

Iwakuma, Austin Jackson, and Fernando Rodney are all FA's after this year. They're definitely in win now mode.

[AerchAngel]

When we trade JUp, will we then keep Gattis this season? Or will we trade him, too?

Naw, they all want white or hispanic (good servants for low pay) players since we are moving to the burbs to bring in the white folk, the "Southern" way.

[emk418]

As much as we'd love that, they've got a gold glove silver slugger 3B named Seager at 3B. Maybe they could move CJ and his glove to SS.

I know they have Seager. But CJ could play 1B/Dh for them since they're so desperate for RH bats.

[jpx7]

People will still be yammering about Heyward 2 stadiums from now.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/54/54de38b4330d259fd20bbb01da3bbf8d8c3f62b346889dc433 568c8ee44f2d0e.jpg

[jpx7]

This is correct. Frankly, unless we get Stanton, Trout, Price, and Kershaw for, say, BJ, Johnson, and the released Uggla, I fully intend to stay miffed for the foreseeable future.

Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing.

Because in a lot of ways, the trade makes perfect sense. And it's also clear that I don't see the endgame. I admit that. And you know what? I don't care. Not even a little. No, I can't justify that. Don't intend to try. I DON'T root for laundry, and Jason Hayward entertained me. I liked the way he represented the team and my hometown, and I have no intention of being talked out of it with all your fancy "facts" and "logic." Yes, I can be downright Republican at times (a sentence I never dreamed I'd type.)

Baseball is a business to the people in the business. To the fans, it's a passion. The day that's no longer true is the day we stop tuning in and stop buying tickets. Until then, we Heyward fans are going to whine. And we're bloody well going to enjoy it.

Well said.

[goldfly]

People will still be yammering about Heyward 2 stadiums from now.

i am willing to admit this will be me

[Runnin]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/54/54de38b4330d259fd20bbb01da3bbf8d8c3f62b346889dc433 568c8ee44f2d0e.jpg

Obviously, you thought like Lit.

[COGPK]

Some people choose to be fans of the name on the back of the jersey. That's fine! No law against that. I cried when we traded Tony Cloninger. Of course, I was pretty young. I hated it when we traded Rico Carty too. But, in my older years, I choose to be a fan for the name on the front of the jersey. jason Heyward is the enemy now. He wears the wrong color jersey. I have hopes that John Hart ill bring a winner to Atlanta. I'm not gonna worry about who is gonna play right field in November. I think he is aware that we need to fill that position.

[Tapate50]

Some people choose to be fans of the name on the back of the jersey. That's fine! No law against that. I cried when we traded Tony Cloninger. Of course, I was pretty young. I hated it when we traded Rico Carty too. But, in my older years, I choose to be a fan for the name on the front of the jersey. jason Heyward is the enemy now. He wears the wrong color jersey. I have hopes that John Hart ill bring a winner to Atlanta. I'm not gonna worry about who is gonna play right field in November. I think he is aware that we need to fill that position.

Although I have no idea who those names are you mentioned, this is my feeling as well. I want to win championships, and Heyward for all his War, and uzr (I'm kidding- relax folks) and whatever, couldn't help us bring that home. I'm all for trying another formula that does.

I want a winner, and this team last year blew goat balls and the Giants were back in the WS.

Maybe we need a Heyward only thread ?

[50PoundHead]

Some people choose to be fans of the name on the back of the jersey. That's fine! No law against that. I cried when we traded Tony Cloninger. Of course, I was pretty young. I hated it when we traded Rico Carty too. But, in my older years, I choose to be a fan for the name on the front of the jersey. jason Heyward is the enemy now. He wears the wrong color jersey. I have hopes that John Hart ill bring a winner to Atlanta. I'm not gonna worry about who is gonna play right field in November. I think he is aware that we need to fill that position.

I won't go as far as saying Heyward is the enemy, but it looks like we're in the same age category and I've learned over the years that teams are revolving doors and guys pass through them. Braves had a great team in the late-1950s/early-1960s when I started paying attention and guys came and left, but it has always been about the Braves for me and the hope they will succeed. I've seen all my favorite guys leave one way or another (Aaron, Murphy, Glavine, Mathews).

[SidSlid92]

The market seems to be pretty significant if media reports are to be believed. Given the contract of Stanton, I believe JUp's asking price just increased a bit, and RH power is at a premium right now in the game.

I have very little doubt he gets moved this offseason. But I hope Hart and the FO don't sell him cheaply. With our lack of impact prospects close to the bigs, JUp has to bring max value for it to be worth moving him. This is the opportunity to make a franchise changing type deal IMO.

To me, here is a list of prospects we should be targeting from rumored teams of interest. I would demand 2 to 3 top prospects for him.

Rangers: Gallo, Alfaro, Mazara, Williams, LJackson, Thompson

Mariners: Walker, Peterson, Guerrero

Red Sox: Owens, Margot, Devers, Swihart

I don't see a good match with the Astros, as Correa is certainly off the table. Don't see another centerpiece guy there.

To me, the Mariners are the logical choice here.

Swing Jup + for Walker, Peterson, Guerrero and call it a day. This only works if the Braves scouts believe Peterson can play 3B long term.

Deal CJ cheaply for bullpen arms or lower level spect, just to get his salary off the books.

A rotation of Teheran, Walker, Minor, Miller, Wood is solid for years to come.

C-CB
1b-Free
2b-Peraza
SS-Simba
3b-Peterson
OF-Gattis, Melvin, FA defensive sign

[Tapate50]

The market seems to be pretty significant if media reports are to be believed. Given the contract of Stanton, I believe JUp's asking price just increased a bit, and RH power is at a premium right now in the game.

I have very little doubt he gets moved this offseason. But I hope Hart and the FO don't sell him cheaply. With our lack of impact prospects close to the bigs, JUp has to bring max value for it to be worth moving him. This is the opportunity to make a franchise changing type deal IMO.

To me, here is a list of prospects we should be targeting from rumored teams of interest. I would demand 2 to 3 top prospects for him.

Rangers: Gallo, Alfaro, Mazara, Williams, LJackson, Thompson

Mariners: Walker, Peterson, Guerrero

Red Sox: Owens, Margot, Devers, Swihart

I don't see a good match with the Astros, as Correa is certainly off the table. Don't see another centerpiece guy there.

To me, the Mariners are the logical choice here.

Swing Jup + for Walker, Peterson, Guerrero and call it a day. This only works if the Braves scouts believe Peterson can play 3B long term.

Deal CJ cheaply for bullpen arms or lower level spect, just to get his salary off the books.

A rotation of Teheran, Walker, Minor, Miller, Wood is solid for years to come.

C-CB
1b-Free
2b-Peraza
SS-Simba
3b-Peterson
OF-Gattis, Melvin, FA defensive sign

While the asking price for Upton is considered "significant" by reports, I doubt it's 2-3 top prospects. I think getting anything above Walker would be gravy, and another B type prospect would be a good get.

I'm not that familiar with all of their prospects though.

[GovClintonTyree]

The market seems to be pretty significant if media reports are to be believed. Given the contract of Stanton, I believe JUp's asking price just increased a bit, and RH power is at a premium right now in the game.

I have very little doubt he gets moved this offseason. But I hope Hart and the FO don't sell him cheaply. With our lack of impact prospects close to the bigs, JUp has to bring max value for it to be worth moving him. This is the opportunity to make a franchise changing type deal IMO.

To me, here is a list of prospects we should be targeting from rumored teams of interest. I would demand 2 to 3 top prospects for him.

Rangers: Gallo, Alfaro, Mazara, Williams, LJackson, Thompson

Mariners: Walker, Peterson, Guerrero

Red Sox: Owens, Margot, Devers, Swihart

I don't see a good match with the Astros, as Correa is certainly off the table. Don't see another centerpiece guy there.

To me, the Mariners are the logical choice here.

Swing Jup + for Walker, Peterson, Guerrero and call it a day. This only works if the Braves scouts believe Peterson can play 3B long term.

Deal CJ cheaply for bullpen arms or lower level spect, just to get his salary off the books.

A rotation of Teheran, Walker, Minor, Miller, Wood is solid for years to come.

C-CB
1b-Free
2b-Peraza
SS-Simba
3b-Peterson
OF-Gattis, Melvin, FA defensive sign

I certainly agree with your conclusion that the Mariners are the best match, and maybe the most motivated. I would encourage you to stretch your thinking to include young vets as well as prospects - Paxton, Miller, Saunders are all thoughts I've had in addition to Walker.

[rico43]

While the asking price for Upton is considered "significant" by reports, I doubt it's 2-3 top prospects. I think getting anything above Walker would be gravy, and another B type prospect would be a good get.

I'm not that familiar with all of their prospects though.

Our man in Seattle earlier posted that Paxton is the man to get. He's the former UK stud out of Canada who blew off signing for a year. He's a 6-4 lefty who is 9-4, 2.66 in 17 MLB starts. A lot of persistent buzz about Walker's shoulder has me very wary of going that route. I'd also love to have me some Tom Wilhelmson for the bullpen.

[rico43]

Meant to add that the M's might be ready to give up on Dustin Ackley. Let's hand him over to our new hitting coach and see what happens.

[jason27nc]

I think this is great. As long as we have Fredi as the manager it doesn't matter who is on the field anyway.

[GovClintonTyree]

Meant to add that the M's might be ready to give up on Dustin Ackley. Let's hand him over to our new hitting coach and see what happens.

Ackley turned the corner second half last year. They're not moving him, I don't think, Rico. They think their patience is about to be rewarded. If you want a bit of a project with major upside, they will part with Saunders - who, for our purposes, is also a pretty good CF. Biggest problem with Saunders is you have to choose whether he's injury prone or unlucky. I opt for the latter.

[GovClintonTyree]

I think this is great. As long as we have Fredi as the manager it doesn't matter who is on the field anyway.

Thanks for the incisive commentary.

[GovClintonTyree]

Also, Rico, Wilhelmsen would be a good get. They'd be dealing from strength.

[SidSlid92]

I certainly agree with your conclusion that the Mariners are the best match, and maybe the most motivated. I would encourage you to stretch your thinking to include young vets as well as prospects - Paxton, Miller, Saunders are all thoughts I've had in addition to Walker.

If we could find a way to get walker and Paxton, I'm all for it. Then use minor to get rid of BJ.

I'm not a fan of Saunders, but do like Miller. Just didn't include him because I don't see where he would fit long term. If Peterson can play a serviceable defensive third then he would fill that hole long term.

But again, if we can find the right pieces to include with JUp to get both walker and pax, you have to do that. Just can't see the M's moving both young starters.

[SidSlid92]

I saw the mets with possible interest. Would we entertain dealing him within the division?

[GovClintonTyree]

If we could find a way to get walker and Paxton, I'm all for it. Then use minor to get rid of BJ.

I'm not a fan of Saunders, but do like Miller. Just didn't include him because I don't see where he would fit long term. If Peterson can play a serviceable defensive third then he would fill that hole long term.

But again, if we can find the right pieces to include with JUp to get both walker and pax, you have to do that. Just can't see the M's moving both young starters.

Right. They won't. We could insist on Paxton unless they include Miller, something like that.

I think Miller could play a deluxe 3B with LH power. He's serviceable at short, and once he got fixed, his bat really came along.

Saunders is a bit of a gamble, but would plug the CF hole after the Braves pull off the amazing Minor-and-BJ-for-something deal. There's some upside there. I think he's capable of an .800 OPS, though .770 is more likely.

[Heyward]

I think this is great. As long as we have Fredi as the manager it doesn't matter who is on the field anyway.

Oh please shut up.

[GovClintonTyree]

I saw the mets with possible interest. Would we entertain dealing him within the division?

I'd do it. He's a rental.

Another thing about Justin - I think he's a good guy, but he's very clearly an introvert. I don't think he'd like New York and I think he knows that. I think he'd go find his fortune somewhere less demanding.

[thethe]

I'd do it. He's a rental.

Another thing about Justin - I think he's a good guy, but he's very clearly an introvert. I don't think he'd like New York and I think he knows that. I think he'd go find his fortune somewhere less demanding.

Upton for Degrom? Where do I sign?

[Chico]

Paxton is the one I'd prefer over Walker as well, but I think the M's are hanging on to him for that reason. Iwakuma will be a FA after next year and they view him as their #2 to team with Felix. They're also light on lefty pitching prospects. Walker would be the get here. IMO.

Miller, Saunders, and James Jones could all help immediately.

Patrick Kivlehan could be a good one with Peterson slated as their 1B of the future and Seager entrenched at 3B.

Edwin Diaz has a lot of upside.

Danny Hultzen is interesting as another piece. He's owed $1.7M for 2015 and it's unsure how he's going to bounce back from injury, but he was supposed to be a stud at one time. It'd be a gamble, but possibly one that would pay off.

[Heyward]

Mets have some pitching to trade but im not sure they'd do a Wheeler/Beltran deal within the division.

[benchguy]

Get a life, if you can find one..


I think this is great. As long as we have Fredi as the manager it doesn't matter who is on the field anyway.

[jcc03004]

I loved having j up on this team but if we are going to be as bad as we think we are going to be keeping him is useless even until the asb (much less of a package back). But not sure how we go from having a pitcher be the centerpiece (walker ) to not getting any pitching back.

[Enscheff]

The Ms have a ton of pieces that could fit the Braves well. Guys like Walker, Miller, Saunders, and several others fill in the holes perfectly. I imagine Gattis or JUp (or maybe both) will be heading there for a package that fills at least 2 holes in the current roster.

I still think a blockbuster JUp/Gattis trade for Walker/Miller/Saunders/prospect makes a lot of sense.

Then the Braves sign Tomas and Aoki to fill the OF.

C CB
1B Freeman
2B Peraza/Miller
3B CJ/Miller
SS Simmons
LF Tomas
CF Saunders
RF Aoki

SPs Teheran, Wood, Walker, Minor, Miller

[GovClintonTyree]

The Ms have a ton of pieces that could fit the Braves well. Guys like Walker, Miller, Saunders, and several others fill in the holes perfectly. I imagine Gattis or JUp (or maybe both) will be heading there for a package that fills at least 2 holes in the current roster.

I still think a blockbuster JUp/Gattis trade for Walker/Miller/Saunders/prospect makes a lot of sense.

Then the Braves sign Tomas and Aoki to fill the OF.

C CB
1B Freeman
2B Peraza/Miller
3B CJ/Miller
SS Simmons
LF Tomas
CF Saunders
RF Aoki

SPs Teheran, Wood, Walker, Minor, Miller

If we could get that deal and them to take (most of) ****ty Upton as part of the price for getting the two RH bats they're looking for I'd wet myself.

[Enscheff]

If we could get that deal and them to take (most of) ****ty Upton as part of the price for getting the two RH bats they're looking for I'd wet myself.

Well they won't. Figure JUp and Walker are about equal in value, and Gattis is worth Miller and Saunders plus some prospect gravy. Drop the prospect, add a chunk of cash from the Braves side, and there might be a chance.

Problem is BJ would likely serve well as a 4th OFer and platoon partner with Saunders (not to mention Saunders is considered injury prone), so I think I would rather have BJ on the bench plus the extra prospect.

I could see a valid argument for the trade being BJ/JUp/Gattis/Cash for Walker/Miller/Saunders though, depending on how the saved cash was used.

[Carp]

I don't think I touch Ackley unless they wanted to add him as a throw in, which they won't. His ability to get on base is a huge concern, even in the 2nd half of last yr. And he's a LFer with not that much pop.

[Hawk]

I don't think I touch Ackley unless they wanted to add him as a throw in, which they won't. His ability to get on base is a huge concern, even in the 2nd half of last yr. And he's a LFer with not that much pop.

He can also play 2B (although he was quite decent in LF for Seattle last year).

If the Braves could nab him on the cheap I would love to throw him out there -- especially over guys like Pastornicky/Gosselin where the upside is basically nil. Ackley has a tremendous raw skillset and I think it would do him a lot of good to get back to his geographical roots.

[GovClintonTyree]

Figure JUp and Walker are about equal in value, and Gattis is worth Miller and Saunders plus some prospect gravy. Drop the prospect, add a chunk of cash from the Braves side, and there might be a chance.

I could see a valid argument for the trade being BJ/JUp/Gattis/Cash for Walker/Miller/Saunders though, depending on how the saved cash was used.

This would be beautiful.

BTW, Safeco is an unbelievably bad hitter's dungeon. Way worse than Turner. Maybe not as bad as Petco, but beef up or down stats accordingly.

If you put Seager in Yankee Stadium, he'd be Eddie Mathews.

[GovClintonTyree]

He can also play 2B (although he was quite decent in LF for Seattle last year).

If the Braves could nab him on the cheap I would love to throw him out there -- especially over guys like Pastornicky/Gosselin where the upside is basically nil. Ackley has a tremendous raw skillset and I think it would do him a lot of good to get back to his geographical roots.


See my comments on hitting in Safeco.

His swing looked really good - even beautiful- in July/August last year. He carried that team for two months. I think the only reason he was moved to left was they had Franklin, and Miller, and Taylor, and somebody had to go. And of course then they signed Cano, so he's never going back there up here. But he can play it pretty well. And an .800 OPS isn't out of the question if you get him out of there.

[Hawk]

Olney: "Rival evaluators expect that the Braves will trade Justin Upton after the trade of Jason Heyward. But, although some understand the Braves’ efforts to land young, controllable pitching, like Shelby Miller, they wonder why Atlanta has seemed focused solely on pitching in its proposed deals rather than just taking the best players available. “If they only talk to teams that are willing to discuss front-line pitching prospects,” said one AL official, “they’re going to limit themselves.” Additionally, evaluators say, it’s actually more difficult right now to find good young position players than it is to find pitching."

[bravesnumberone]

I wonder seriously if we are even bothering to have extension talks with Justin.

[Mad Dog Murph]

Being a baseball season ticket holder at UNC for 15 years....I watched both Ackley and Seager play and it amazes me how their careers have turned out. Ackley was, without a doubt, one of the best college hitters I have ever seen....he was amazing. Seagar, while a very good player, was not the prospect Ackley was. Yet, Seager is having the better pro career...so far. Not surprising, just interesting how these things turn out. I think some hitting coach messed with Ackley's mechanics and he has not gotten it back. He is only 26 so there is time.

[skillet]

Olney: "Rival evaluators expect that the Braves will trade Justin Upton after the trade of Jason Heyward. But, although some understand the Braves’ efforts to land young, controllable pitching, like Shelby Miller, they wonder why Atlanta has seemed focused solely on pitching in its proposed deals rather than just taking the best players available. “If they only talk to teams that are willing to discuss front-line pitching prospects,” said one AL official, “they’re going to limit themselves.” Additionally, evaluators say, it’s actually more difficult right now to find good young position players than it is to find pitching."

I couldn't agree more. I sure hope we aren't just focused on pitching. We actually have good pitching right now. Our hitting on the other hand stinks.

[weso1]

Olney: "Rival evaluators expect that the Braves will trade Justin Upton after the trade of Jason Heyward. But, although some understand the Braves’ efforts to land young, controllable pitching, like Shelby Miller, they wonder why Atlanta has seemed focused solely on pitching in its proposed deals rather than just taking the best players available. “If they only talk to teams that are willing to discuss front-line pitching prospects,” said one AL official, “they’re going to limit themselves.” Additionally, evaluators say, it’s actually more difficult right now to find good young position players than it is to find pitching."

Yeah, I've wondered that as well, but it's possible the Braves have changed their philosophy after getting two good young pitchers in the Heyward deal. Hart has recently stated that suddenly the Braves option are almost infinite at this point. Will be an interesting Winter Meetings.

[Dalyn]

No. Impossible. They took the best offer available. No way they limited their return by focusing on the team's strength (last year).

[Dalyn]

I wonder seriously if we are even bothering to have extension talks with Justin.

Sure. They talked for about ten minutes when he was traded. Plenty of time.

[BremanFan88]

The Braves have always gone about things through the perception of need over talent. It's why we traded Tex for Kotchman, why we drafted Joey Devine. It's probably why we drafted Jon Gilmore over Mike Stanton. I don't think it's a particular great philosophy but that and just go after pitching are the Braves Way.

[BremanFan88]

Sure. They talked for about ten minutes when he was traded. Plenty of time.

Justin probably asked for a non-insulting offer and they hung up.

[Dalyn]

The Braves have always gone about things through the perception of need over talent. It's why we traded Tex for Kotchman, why we drafted Joey Devine. It's probably why we drafted Jon Gilmore over Mike Stanton. I don't think it's a particular great philosophy but that and just go after pitching are the Braves Way.

It takes real focus to build one of the worst offenses in the game.

[bravesnumberone]

But, by trading the rest of our offense for great pitching, we'll save money and go sign Torii the motherfreaking man Hunter, who will help us for 2017.

[blueagleace1]

Yeah, I've wondered that as well, but it's possible the Braves have changed their philosophy after getting two good young pitchers in the Heyward deal. Hart has recently stated that suddenly the Braves option are almost infinite at this point. Will be an interesting Winter Meetings.

Another way to look at it is like this: If they can get numerous high-end pitching prospects then that will allow you to flip them or Sims/Hursh/Cabrera/Martin or Mike Minor for a positional player when the time comes.

[Dalyn]

But, by trading the rest of our offense for great pitching, we'll save money and go sign Torii the motherfreaking man Hunter, who will help us for 2017.

We WILL need a new manager.

[bravesnumberone]

http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/files/2013/04/Fredi-Gonzalez-Derick-Hingle.jpg

[Braves1976]

We WILL need a new manager.

My hope is that they decided that Fredi was OK for 2015 due in part to it being a reload/rebuild year. But that they will not renew his contract when it runs out after this coming season. So instead of firing him they just let him finish his contract this season and find a new manager for 2016.

If there serious about being a contender by 2017 then Fredi surely won't being managing the team once the new ballpark opens.

[Dalyn]

My hope is that they decided that Fredi was OK for 2015 due in part to it being a reload/rebuild year. But that they will not renew his contract when it runs out after this coming season. So instead of firing him they just let him finish his contract this season and find a new manager for 2016.

If there serious about being a contender by 2017 then Fredi surely won't being managing the team once the new stadium opens.

http://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/2013/02/13/images/mlbf_25597093_th_13.jpg

[Hawk]

If you look at the compositions of the teams John Hart has built before offense has never even remotely been an issue (whereas pitching, almost universally, has been), so perhaps he's confident in his ability to sniff out value and production in that arena. Presuming that's the case, the pieces still don't exactly fit; the Braves already possess a solid pitching core at the Major League level, have a decent amount of high-ceiling arms in the Minors, and own a rather pristine history of accumulating valuable arms from outside of the organization by a variety of means.

If the Braves move Justin Upton -- and I believe they will -- this team goes from a poor offense to a brutal one. And that's not even accouting for the real possibility that Gattis is gone as well. What scares me the most about this potential series of events is where it leaves the Braves even looking ahead to competitiveness in 2017. The farm system has about 5 semi-projectable bats in its current arsenal, and even if the team completely reshapes its draft/scouting strategies it could easily be 5-6 years before any of that talent sniffs the Majors.

Obviously we will find ourselves in a much better position to analyze the direction of the team after Hart finishes executing the first stage of his plan over the course of this offseason, but right now we have a lot more questions than answers.

[bravesfanforlife88]

This is true hawk however there is so much fundamentally wrong with the organization you have to start somewhere. And "the braves way" has always revolved around pitching. I am confident hart will blow us away within the next few weeks

[Braves1976]

If you look at the compositions of the teams John Hart has built before offense has never even remotely been an issue (whereas pitching, almost universally, has been), so perhaps he's confident in his ability to sniff out value and production in that arena. Presuming that's the case, the pieces still don't exactly fit; the Braves already possess a solid pitching core at the Major League level, have a decent amount of high-ceiling arms in the Minors, and own a rather pristine history of accumulating valuable arms from outside of the organization by a variety of means.

If the Braves move Justin Upton -- and I believe they will -- this team goes from a poor offense to a brutal one. And that's not even accouting for the real possibility that Gattis is gone as well. What scares me the most about this potential series of events is where it leaves the Braves even looking ahead to competitiveness in 2017. The farm system has about 5 semi-projectable bats in its current arsenal, and even if the team completely reshapes its draft/scouting strategies it could easily be 5-6 years before any of that talent sniffs the Majors.

Obviously we will find ourselves in a much better position to analyze the direction of the team after Hart finishes executing the first stage of his plan over the course of this offseason, but right now we have a lot more questions than answers.

I figure either way it goes that one or more of Wood, Miller, etc., go down with injury before or by 2017.

[GovClintonTyree]

If you look at the compositions of the teams John Hart has built before offense has never even remotely been an issue (whereas pitching, almost universally, has been), so perhaps he's confident in his ability to sniff out value and production in that arena. Presuming that's the case, the pieces still don't exactly fit; the Braves already possess a solid pitching core at the Major League level, have a decent amount of high-ceiling arms in the Minors, and own a rather pristine history of accumulating valuable arms from outside of the organization by a variety of means.

If the Braves move Justin Upton -- and I believe they will -- this team goes from a poor offense to a brutal one. And that's not even accouting for the real possibility that Gattis is gone as well. What scares me the most about this potential series of events is where it leaves the Braves even looking ahead to competitiveness in 2017. The farm system has about 5 semi-projectable bats in its current arsenal, and even if the team completely reshapes its draft/scouting strategies it could easily be 5-6 years before any of that talent sniffs the Majors.

Obviously we will find ourselves in a much better position to analyze the direction of the team after Hart finishes executing the first stage of his plan over the course of this offseason, but right now we have a lot more questions than answers.

Interesting thoughts. Really, he doesn't need any more pitching at this point. Patch in a Harang or a Gavin Floyd at five. Still got Hale as a swing man. Other than insurance, he could be done there.

Then the goal should be young controllable hitting now. Seattle is a good place for that, too. Back to Fat Upton, They'd probably do two of Saunders/Ackley/Miller, which would really help us for 4-5 years each. Maybe throw in James Jones to play CF and run between Gattis on the LF line and Tomas on the RF line. You could even play BJ against lefties if you can't find a sucker to take him.

Or maybe righties. Defensive replacement? Pinch hitter? Bullpen catcher? Beer vendor in Section 235?

[blueagleace1]

Interesting thoughts. Really, he doesn't need any more pitching at this point. Patch in a Harang or a Gavin Floyd at five. Still got Hale as a swing man. Other than insurance, he could be done there.

Then the goal should be young controllable hitting now. Seattle is a good place for that, too. Back to Fat Upton, They'd probably do two of Saunders/Ackley/Miller, which would really help us for 4-5 years each. Maybe throw in James Jones to play CF and run between Gattis on the LF line and Tomas on the RF line. You could even play BJ against lefties if you can't find a sucker to take him.

Or maybe righties. Defensive replacement? Pinch hitter? Bullpen catcher? Beer vendor in Section 235?

If they don't build a deal around Walker or Paxton then it will look something like this: Justin Upton for D.J Peterson, 1 of Gabriel Guerrero/Austin Wilson, and Edwin Diaz

[cajunrevenge]

The Rangers are an interesting option because they have bad contracts that we could use to get rid of BJ. Elvis Andrus is owed 15 mill a year for the next 8 years. That's brutal.

[GovClintonTyree]

If they don't build a deal around Walker or Paxton then it will look something like this: Justin Upton for D.J Peterson, 1 of Gabriel Guerrero/Austin Wilson, and Edwin Diaz

I would favor young vets or a mix of young vets and prospects in keeping with our non-tear-down rebuild philosophy.

[holden]

buzzword buzzword buzzword


Get over the drama already. I'm telling you what happened.

cool

[holden]

Why do we HAVE to be competitive in 2017? People keep saying this like it's a fact. Sucky teams move into new stadia all the time.

White people will come to the suburban stadium no matter what.

[Hawk]

Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal
#Rangers have spoken with #Braves about Justin Upton, as @Joelsherman1 said. Also have liked Upton in past. Pitching is more current focus.

[GovClintonTyree]

Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal
#Rangers have spoken with #Braves about Justin Upton, as @Joelsherman1 said. Also have liked Upton in past. Pitching is more current focus.

Yeah, hitting doesn't do **** for them if they don't find some pitching.

[Heyward]

Why do we HAVE to be competitive in 2017? People keep saying this like it's a fact. Sucky teams move into new stadia all the time.

White people will come to the suburban stadium no matter what.

I think we can "compete" by 2016, and division/WS type by 2017.

Rotation is plenty fine.

Offense is another story.

[Heyward]

Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal
#Rangers have spoken with #Braves about Justin Upton, as @Joelsherman1 said. Also have liked Upton in past. Pitching is more current focus.

Meh we got enough pitching.

Minor, Wood, Miller, Julio is a solid top-4.

Hale, a vet ona 1-yr deal could finish it out.

Need some hitting bad.

[COGPK]

Upton Brothers for Andrus for 3rd and a couple of minor leaguers.

[clvclv]

Best guess is that price for Texas would be Gallo and Nick Williams or Gallo and Jake Thompson.

(Hart wouldn't take Andrus' contract back if you held a gun to his head BTW.)

[Tapate50]

Wonder what type of value a guy like Hale has in trade talks?

On one hand you can point at his results and say he is a cheap pretty damn good pitcher, but others will just shrug their shoulders and say he couldnt possibly keep it up. If we did sign a guy like Lester he could be a decent little trade addition.

[zitothebrave]

Hale has virtually no trade value. Not necessarily none, but virtually none.

[nsacpi]

Hale has virtually no trade value. Not necessarily none, but virtually none.

Yup. I think he would be an acceptable fifth starter, but right now I don't think he has any market value. I think it would make sense to pencil him in as the fifth starter, but also to have a viable plan B and plan C.

[clvclv]

Hale has virtually no trade value. Not necessarily none, but virtually none.

Agreed.

The value he'd likely have at this point would be as a throw-in in an Upton or Gattis deal to push the opposing GM over the edge, as in...

1 year of J-Up isn't quite enough to get Jack Z to turn Walker loose, but the inclusion of Hale would give him an extra option to plug in if there's an injury in their rotation.

[Enscheff]

Best guess is that price for Texas would be Gallo and Nick Williams or Gallo and Jake Thompson.

(Hart wouldn't take Andrus' contract back if you held a gun to his head BTW.)

Gallo is all but untouchable. The Braves actually have another trade chip available in Minor since he won't be around in 2017. I could envision a package of Minor plus Gattis or JUp bringing back a nice package.

[zitothebrave]

Gallo is all but untouchable. The Braves actually have another trade chip available in Minor since he won't be around in 2017. I could envision a package of Minor plus Gattis or JUp bringing back a nice package.

I wanted Joey gallo, not that I'm upset with Sims, I remember watching Gallo and thinking he could have it all. Would be great to get him, but yeah he's basically untouchable. Like when we had Freeman or Heyward, he's not far from that territory.

[Chico]

The Rangers might make some sense. They could put together a nice package of 2nd tier prospects outside of Gallo and Alfaro.

[clvclv]

That's the current company line on Gallo (he's "untouchable"), and rightfully so.

That said, Daniels isn't an idiot. The Rangers have Beltre under control through 2016, and a Choo/Andrus/Beltre/Fielder/Upton lineup would be flat-out scary assuming health. Including Gallo would mean they'd HAVE to pay Justin's price following next season, but they'd have no problem doing so financially.

I would push it to the limit for Gallo with Daniels, and would explain that it would take more volume to get me to back away. No Gallo? OK. I'll take Profar, Williams AND Thompson.

[Hawk]

Upton Brothers for Andrus for 3rd and a couple of minor leaguers.

I could get behind this -- stick Andrus at 2B, sign a stop gap for CF, and let Peraza try the outfield for a season in AAA.

The Rangers did try to sign BJ in 2012 ... and they tried to trade for Justin in 2012 AND 2013 (remember they offered Wren the sick package of Matt Garza, Joe Nathan, and David Murphy?)

A pipe dream to be sure, but a pleasant one to take to the head nonetheless.

[clvclv]

I could get behind this -- stick Andrus at 2B, sign a stop gap for CF, and let Peraza try the outfield for a season in AAA.

The Rangers did try to sign BJ in 2012 ... and they tried to trade for Justin in 2012 AND 2013 (remember they offered Wren the sick package of Matt Garza, Joe Nathan, and David Murphy?)

A pipe dream to be sure, but a pleasant one to take to the head nonetheless.

Again, I can't fathom why ANYONE thinks Hart would take Andrus' contract back under any circumstances whatsoever - it's worse than B. J.'s.

8 years, $120 million BEGINNING this year for a player with a career .278/.335/.345./.680 slash line coming off his career worst .263/.314/.333/.647 season. He's not in the same league as Simmons defensively, and Peraza should easily be able to AT LEAST replicate those numbers for a helluva lot less than $120 million.

If the Braves were going to pay that kind of money, they'd simply make an effort to extend Justin.

[50PoundHead]

Again, I can't fathom why ANYONE thinks Hart would take Andrus' contract back under any circumstances whatsoever - it's worse than B. J.'s.

8 years, $120 million BEGINNING this year.

If the Braves were going to pay that kind of money, they'd simply make an effort to extend Justin.

I think Andrus' contract qualifies as one of the worst in baseball right now.

[Tapate50]

I could get behind this -- stick Andrus at 2B, sign a stop gap for CF, and let Peraza try the outfield for a season in AAA.

The Rangers did try to sign BJ in 2012 ... and they tried to trade for Justin in 2012 AND 2013 (remember they offered Wren the sick package of Matt Garza, Joe Nathan, and David Murphy?)

A pipe dream to be sure, but a pleasant one to take to the head nonetheless.

In no parallel universe are the Braves taking on an 8 year 120 million commitment for anyone with his #s

[Hawk]

Again, I can't fathom why ANYONE thinks Hart would take Andrus' contract back under any circumstances whatsoever - it's worse than B. J.'s.

8 years, $120 million BEGINNING this year for a player with a career .278/.335/.345./.680 slash line coming off his career worst .263/.314/.333/.647 season. He's not in the same league as Simmons defensively, and Peraza should easily be able to AT LEAST replicate those numbers for a helluva lot less than $120 million.

If the Braves were going to pay that kind of money, they'd simply make an effort to extend Justin.

The Braves want to trade BJ Upton because he sucks, not because they can't afford him. Andrus' contract might be cringe-worthy, but he's realistically one of the literal handful of options the Braves might have to get out from under BJ's contract and receive a serviceable piece in return. There is no team in baseball that is going to eat BJ's remaining $46 million dollars for Evan Gattis or Mike Minor.

[Hawk]

In no parallel universe are the Braves taking on an 8 year 120 million commitment for anyone with his #s

If they could dump $60MM in salary and obtain one/two high-ceiling prospects in addition to a player with Andrus' skillset it's not exactly rocket science, IMO.

The Rangers want to keep Andrus, anyways, so this is all moot.

[50PoundHead]

The Braves want to trade BJ Upton because he sucks, not because they can't afford him. Andrus' contract might be cringe-worthy, but he's realistically one of the literal handful of options the Braves might have to get out from under BJ's contract and receive a serviceable piece in return. There is no team in baseball that is going to eat BJ's remaining $46 million dollars for Evan Gattis or Mike Minor.

I will say this. We would likely have to send something with Melvin to acquire Andrus, but we could likely flip Andrus for a decent return. It could amount to a three-corner deal, which would be fine with me if we could get out of Melvin's miserable contract.

[Hawk]

I think Andrus' contract qualifies as one of the worst in baseball right now.

On what basis? Dude's 26 (and will only be 34 when his deal ends -- assuming he doesn't opt out in a couple of years), is fourth among shortstops in OBP (.331) and seventh in defensive runs saved the past three seasons.

His contract could still end up being a bargain when it's all said and done.

[clvclv]

The Braves want to trade BJ Upton because he sucks, not because they can't afford him. Andrus' contract might be cringe-worthy, but he's realistically one of the literal handful of options the Braves might have to get out from under BJ's contract and receive a serviceable piece in return. There is no team in baseball that is going to eat BJ's remaining $46 million dollars for Evan Gattis or Mike Minor.

Again, Hart has enough sense to understand that eating the $46 million owed to B. J. is FAR BETTER than taking on the $120 million owed Andrus - that's simple math.

No matter how much anyone wants to get rid of B. J., there's absolutely no way that paying an extra $74 million for Andrus helps anything.

That contract is Daniels' version of B. J.'s, and is the reason that he's now willing to trade Profar or Odor - no one that plays anywhere outside of the Bronx will give him anything of value for it.

[Enscheff]

The Rangers are actually looking for pitching first and foremost. That's why I think a package of JUp plus Minor might bring back a really good return.

[clvclv]

I will say this. We would likely have to send something with Melvin to acquire Andrus, but we could likely flip Andrus for a decent return. It could amount to a three-corner deal, which would be fine with me if we could get out of Melvin's miserable contract.

I have to respectfully disagree - if Daniels hasn't been able to sell anybody on that contract, I sincerely doubt Hart could.

I'd much rather eat the rest of B. J.'s deal than hope that someone might bail me out from under Elvis'.

[nsacpi]

Recognizing that Melvin has no trade value might be the prerequisite for doing something to upgrade center. I suspect the front office will not bite that bullet until June. Hopefully we are not out of it at that point.

[50PoundHead]

I have to respectfully disagree - if Daniels hasn't been able to sell anybody on that contract, I sincerely doubt Hart could.

I'd much rather eat the rest of B. J.'s deal than hope that someone might bail me out from under Elvis'.

As long as it's respectful, you can disagree all you'd like. You're probably right.

I've always gotten along with Bill Shanks fairly well, but I wonder if he would like to rethink the projection of Elvis Andrus as the next Alex Rodriguez.

[Perfect Cell]

Wow, its been a while.


Anyways. If Upton is dealt, and ill be sad if he is, (im already still trying to recover from the Heyward thing) then might as well sell the entire team. No sense in keeping Kimbrel if you are barely a wild card team. Id definetly deal Gattis too, and sell CJ for peanuts. Id probably just keep Freeman and Simmons but id trade them too for the right deal.

[Hawk]

Again, Hart has enough sense to understand that eating the $46 million owed to B. J. is FAR BETTER than taking on the $120 million owed Andrus - that's simple math.

No matter how much anyone wants to get rid of B. J., there's absolutely no way that paying an extra $74 million for Andrus helps anything.

That contract is Daniels' version of B. J.'s, and is the reason that he's now willing to trade Profar or Odor - no one that plays anywhere outside of the Bronx will give him anything of value for it.

Stop for a moment to consider what this organization is aiming to accomplish in the next two years.

Competing in 2017 is essential for a multitude of reasons - many of which go well beyond the diamond. The team has financial flexibility (more than most people seem to realize) but not exactly a blank check like the Marlins did a few years ago, either. Turning BJ into a glorified 4th OF or just biting the bullet and eating his contract are two real possibilities that are going to hurt the team by virtue of a simple lack of return on investment.

Moving BJ for a younger, infinitely more productive talent (who just happens to have an uncomfortable future commitment) -- but not, by any stretch of the exaggerated perspective you are operating from, impossible to absorb, is a little more easy to swallow. It's trading up, but not out.

Andrus is a good player. Is he worth $15MM right now? Not exactly, although it would be interesting to see what kind of contract he would receive on the open market as it stands.

Could he be worth $15MM in 2016 and beyond? Absolutely.

Could BJ Upton?

It's the lesser of two evils, though. The Braves don't need to move BJ Upton because they can't afford to pay him. They can't afford to pay him to do nothing. Atleast Andrus would provide this team some immediately tangible value and allow Hart to continue to reload (versus rebuild) headed into 2017.

[clvclv]

Recognizing that Melvin has no trade value might be the prerequisite for doing something to upgrade center. I suspect the front office will not bite that bullet until June. Hopefully we are not out of it at that point.

I completely agree.

There's no reason to hope we'll get anything of value even pairing B. J. with someone. Simply make him the 4th OF and ride it out, but don't take on money in any Justin or Gattis deal.

If Hart can't pry Gallo away, but got a CF to replace B. J. in Profar, a RF to replace Heyward in Williams, and another relatively high-ceiling arm to tuck away in Thompson, there would still be plenty of money to sign Tomas and/or Moncada or add a piece or two prior to 2017. Doing that would also put him in a position to deal Gattis (if he so chooses) for more arms.

[clvclv]

Stop for a moment to consider what this organization is aiming to accomplish in the next two years.

Competing in 2017 is essential for a multitude of reasons - many of which go well beyond the diamond. The team has financial flexibility (more than most people seem to realize) but not exactly a blank check like the Marlins did a few years ago, either. Turning BJ into a glorified 4th OF or just biting the bullet and eating his contract are two real possibilities that are going to hurt the team by virtue of a simple lack of return on investment.

Moving BJ for a younger, infinitely more productive talent (who just happens to have an uncomfortable future commitment) -- but not, by any stretch of the exaggerated perspective you are operating from, impossible to absorb, is a little more easy to swallow. It's trading up, but not out.

Andrus is a good player. Is he worth $15MM right now? Not exactly, although it would be interesting to see what kind of contract he would receive on the open market as it stands.

Could he be worth $15MM in 2016 and beyond? Absolutely.

It's the lesser of two evils, though. The Braves don't need to move BJ Upton because they can't afford to pay him. They can't afford to pay him to do nothing. Atleast Andrus would provide this team some immediately tangible value and allow Hart to continue to reload (versus rebuild) headed into 2015.


Sure. Jason Heyward "could" turn into Giancarlo Stanton before April too. (Since we're talking about situations where pigs fly, B. J. "could" be worth $15 million in 2016 and beyond.)

On what planet is admitting a $46 million mistake and trying to cover it up with a $120 million mistake the lesser of anything?

Andrus has been available almost since the minute the ink dried on that contract - nobody wants him.

[Hawk]

Sure. Jason Heyward "could" turn into Giancarlo Stanton before April too.

On what planet is admitting a $46 million mistake and trying to cover it up with a $120 million mistake the lesser of anything?

Andrus has been available almost since the minute the ink dried on that contract - nobody wants him.

A) Your players valuations are dated ... and wack as ****.

B) The Rangers don't have to trade Elvis Andrus. They haven't aggressively shopped him. You are treating him as though he's some fat chick that has been passed around at a frat party (because being sensationalist is AWESOME!) There's a reason that the Rangers gave him that deal to begin with -- one that's much more logical and defensible than the BJ Upton pact. Upton can already officially be considered one of the worst FA signings of the past decade (if not all time). As hard as you might try, and fail, Andrus' deal isn't at that point yet.

[50PoundHead]

A) Your players valuations are dated ... and wack as ****.

B) The Rangers don't have to trade Elvis Andrus. They haven't aggressively shopped him. You are treating him as though he's some fat chick that has been passed around at a frat party (because being sensationalist is AWESOME!) There's a reason that the Rangers gave him that deal to begin with -- one that's much more logical and defensible than the BJ Upton pact. Upton can already officially be considered one of the worst FA signings of the past decade (if not all time). As hard as you might try, and fail, Andrus' deal isn't at that point yet.

Paying half the posters on this board to stand in CF for the major league minimum is as logical and defensible as the M. Upton contract.

[thewupk]

The BJ Upton contract sucks. But nobody expected what he's done thus far. Nobody. He's a guy that's in shape, in his prime, and no history of any injuries that would cause a loss of production. Had he simply been the 110ish WRC+ guy with plus defense that he was the last 3 years in Tampa he would of been worth the contract given to him. But somehow when the Braves bring in hitters from outside the org they turn to ****. The younger Upton is about the only guy to buck the trend. It's pretty remarkable how much bad luck the Braves have had in bringing in hitters.

[clvclv]

A) Your players valuations are dated ... and wack as ****.

B) The Rangers don't have to trade Elvis Andrus. They haven't aggressively shopped him. You are treating him as though he's some fat chick that has been passed around at a frat party (because being sensationalist is AWESOME!) There's a reason that the Rangers gave him that deal to begin with -- one that's much more logical and defensible than the BJ Upton pact. Upton can already officially be considered one of the worst FA signings of the past decade (if not all time). As hard as you might try, and fail, Andrus' deal isn't at that point yet.

Teams that need a SS:
NYY, NYM, LAD, OAK, ???, ???

Rumored trade offers for Andrus and his contract:
None so far.

(BTW, Oakland just traded international bonus money for Ike Davis instead of trying to make a deal for Andrus.)

Sensationalist?
If you say so.

[Hawk]

Teams that need a SS:
NYY, NYM, LAD, OAK, ???, ???

Rumored trade offers for Andrus and his contract:
None so far.

(BTW, Oakland just traded international bonus money for Ike Davis instead of trying to make a deal for Andrus.)

Sensationalist?
If you say so.

Ike Davis plays 1B.

And the Rangers aren't interested in trading Andrus, according to Ken Rosenthal (this afternoon) ... so I'm failing to totally understand where you are going with the whole 'nobody wants him' trope.

[50PoundHead]

Teams that need a SS:
NYY, NYM, LAD, OAK, ???, ???

Rumored trade offers for Andrus and his contract:
None so far.

(BTW, Oakland just traded international bonus money for Ike Davis instead of trying to make a deal for Andrus.)

Sensationalist?
If you say so.

I thought Billy Beane was a smart GM. This deal and the Butler deal are head scratchers to me.

[Hawk]

The BJ Upton contract sucks. But nobody expected what he's done thus far. Nobody. He's a guy that's in shape, in his prime, and no history of any injuries that would cause a loss of production. Had he simply been the 110ish WRC+ guy with plus defense that he was the last 3 years in Tampa he would of been worth the contract given to him. But somehow when the Braves bring in hitters from outside the org they turn to ****. The younger Upton is about the only guy to buck the trend. It's pretty remarkable how much bad luck the Braves have had in bringing in hitters.

If BJ Upton hadn't imploded Frank Wren would still have his job and the marquee banners at SunTrust park would probably feature the Upton bros.

BJ was part of a much bigger plan that made a lot of sense at the time.

[50PoundHead]

The BJ Upton contract sucks. But nobody expected what he's done thus far. Nobody. He's a guy that's in shape, in his prime, and no history of any injuries that would cause a loss of production. Had he simply been the 110ish WRC+ guy with plus defense that he was the last 3 years in Tampa he would of been worth the contract given to him. But somehow when the Braves bring in hitters from outside the org they turn to ****. The younger Upton is about the only guy to buck the trend. It's pretty remarkable how much bad luck the Braves have had in bringing in hitters.

But you still don't bid against yourself and give the guy an extra $2 MM to $3 MM per season for five years. Lack of patience has placed a burden on this franchise and if there's anything I fear most about the Heyward trade it's that impatience is still the order of the day.

PS--And again, it's the length of the contract more than the AAV that made the Upton deal stupid. This is especially true if you want to ink your young core to long-term deals. Wren doled out huge jing to a non-core player. At least with Uggla, you can argue that he was a core player.

[nsacpi]

I thought Billy Beane was a smart GM. This deal and the Butler deal are head scratchers to me.

I wonder what the situation is with Brandon Moss' hip. My understanding is he needed surgery on it.

[Hawk]

But you still don't bid against yourself and give the guy an extra $2 MM to $3 MM per season for five years. Lack of patience has placed a burden on this franchise and if there's anything I fear most about the Heyward trade it's that impatience is still the order of the day.

I personally think Wren already knew that he could get Justin Upton when he overpaid for BJ. Otherwise it's pretty inexplicable.

Somebody needs to do a post-firing expose with Wren and get the dirt on the organization.

[thewupk]

But you still don't bid against yourself and give the guy an extra $2 MM to $3 MM per season for five years. Lack of patience has placed a burden on this franchise and if there's anything I fear most about the Heyward trade it's that impatience is still the order of the day.

The 2 or 3 million extra a year isn't that big of a deal. The extra year was questionable and really annoying now. The bigger issue is Upton falling off a cliff. Had this not happened the extra money per year is really a non issue.

[50PoundHead]

I wonder what the situation is with Brandon Moss' hip. My understanding is he needed surgery on it.

Could be. Maybe Davis can pull a Brandon Moss type resurrection by the Bay.

Matt Olson is probably the long-term 1B prospect for the A's, but he hasn't played above A-Ball, even though he did fairly well in Arizona.

[50PoundHead]

The 2 or 3 million extra a year isn't that big of a deal. The extra year was questionable and really annoying now. The bigger issue is Upton falling off a cliff. Had this not happened the extra money per year is really a non issue.

But $2 or $3 million is a big deal if you have ownership that is supposedly yanking at the pursestrings. That could have contributed to keeping Hudson on a two-year deal or something like that.

We could have had either Span or Revere at bargain basement prices and saved a lot of money.

[thewupk]

But $2 or $3 million is a big deal if you have ownership that is supposedly yanking at the pursestrings. That could have contributed to keeping Hudson on a two-year deal or something like that.

We could have had either Span or Revere at bargain basement prices and saved a lot of money.

Hudson wanted years that the Braves didn't want to give. And if BJ had performed like expected it's not that big of a deal because we have a 3-4 win player in center. Yes Span or Revere would have been better in hindsight. But BJ was the best CFer available.

[cajunrevenge]

If you consider BJ'S contract a sunken cost Andrus would cost 72 million over 8 years. The Rangers seem to be in denial about Andrus ' s contract being an albatross though.

[SidSlid92]

If we move him to Texas, Gallo has to be the starting point. A deal of Upton + for Gallo, Mazara, Thompson is rock solid. If Gallo is truly untouchable, then replace him with Williams and a lower level guy.

If the BoSox sign both Hanley and Pablo, they may call it an off-season but could also try to complete a juggernaut offense by adding JUp. JUp for Xander plus.

A Red Sox team with Papi, Napoli, Peds, Hanley, Pablo, Rusney, Cespedes, JUp wins the World Series.

[clvclv]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/12/its-doubtful-that-the-yankees-will-get-elvis-andrus/

http://metsblog.com/metsblog/are-the-mets-and-rangers-a-match-for-ss-elvis-andrus/

If you don't know they've been shopping Andrus you've been hiding under a rock.

The reason the A's trade for Davis is relevant is that it means they just spent over $14 million this year (and over $44 million total) on Davis and Billy Butler instead of trying to trade for a SS making $120 million when they don't have one - they feel they can get more offensive production from them while using a defense-only guy like Nick Punto, Eric Sogard, or Andy Parrino at that position.

[Hawk]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/12/its-doubtful-that-the-yankees-will-get-elvis-andrus/

http://metsblog.com/metsblog/are-the-mets-and-rangers-a-match-for-ss-elvis-andrus/

If you don't know they've been shopping Andrus you've been hiding under a rock.

The reason the A's trade for Davis is relevant is that it means they just spent over $14 million this year (and over $44 million total) on Davis and Billy Butler instead of trying to trade for a SS making $120 million when they don't have one - they feel they can get more offensive production from them while using a defense-only guy like Nick Punto, Eric Sogard, or Andy Parrino at that position.

There's a pretty significant difference between 'listening to offers' and openly shopping a player.

And what you believe about Oakland trading for Ike Davis and signing Billy Butler to supposedly replace the production that they couldn't get by acquiring a shortstop is an absurd stretch, at best -- but kudos to your ingenuity.

[BremanFan88]

Does anyone honestly think they'd trade Gallo for a LF? Average 3B seem to be getting rarer and if Gallo is projected to be better then they can trade him for way more than Justin Upton. And I say this as a big fan of Justin's but good 3B prospects aren't just going to be this easy to get.

[blueagleace1]

Does anyone honestly think they'd trade Gallo for a LF? Average 3B seem to be getting rarer and if Gallo is projected to be better then they can trade him for way more than Justin Upton. And I say this as a big fan of Justin's but good 3B prospects aren't just going to be this easy to get.

I agree with you on the rarity of legitimate 3B prospects, with that being said, it seems like many scouts and "experts" seem to think Gallo will eventually have to move to 1B because of his defense -or lack there of- and with Prince -and his unmovable contract- enriched at 1st for the foreseeable future maybe, just maybe, Gallo could be had. Pure speculation on my part, but I couldn't agree more on the fact that 3B prospects are becoming a rarity.

[Heyward]

On what basis? Dude's 26 (and will only be 34 when his deal ends -- assuming he doesn't opt out in a couple of years), is fourth among shortstops in OBP (.331) and seventh in defensive runs saved the past three seasons.

His contract could still end up being a bargain when it's all said and done.

That contract is awful, no, just no.

Trading for Andrus would be stupid.

[Hawk]

Trading for Andrus would be stupid.

Just like paying BJ Upton $46MM over the next three years.

At least the oral jokes will survive.

[Heyward]

There's a pretty significant difference between 'listening to offers' and openly shopping a player.

And what you believe about Oakland trading for Ike Davis and signing Billy Butler to supposedly replace the production that they couldn't get by acquiring a shortstop is an absurd stretch, at best -- but kudos to your ingenuity.

Andrus contract sucks, stick to copying/pasting twitter posts than talking.

[Heyward]

Just like paying BJ Upton $46MM over the next three years.

At least the oral jokes will survive.

BJ's contract sucks, no one will deny that.

Trading BJ just to get stuck with another bad contract is retarded.

[Hawk]

Andrus contract sucks, stick to copying/pasting twitter posts than talking.

Nice. This coming from a guy (or girl) that can barely put together two coherent sentences.

BTW, I know that making uninformed and unintelligent comments is kind of your thing (and that's cool -- we all have our things) ... but read a little. It helps.

[clvclv]

There's a pretty significant difference between 'listening to offers' and openly shopping a player.

And what you believe about Oakland trading for Ike Davis and signing Billy Butler to supposedly replace the production that they couldn't get by acquiring a shortstop is an absurd stretch, at best -- but kudos to your ingenuity.

Absolutely. And that difference typically lies in either who the reporter breaking the story is or who's feeding said reporter information.

Let's ignore for a moment that Rosenthal is the one saying "The Rangers are willing to deal any of their shortstops, but Elvis Andrus is the least likely to be moved because the team believes 2015 will be a big season for the 26-year-old." while none of the Texas writers have mentioned anything approaching that. As a matter of fact, here's Tim Cowlishaw's take on Andrus...

"So let’s get back to Andrus. At 26, his best offensive season (2012) was only marginally better than what Odor gave this team at 20. Yet because of his glove work — which eludes him at times but remains good — the club chose to reward him with an eight-year deal (that begins this season) as if he were a 20-home run-hitting shortstop.

Actually, that’s exactly what he has done. Only it has taken him six full seasons and more than 3,500 at-bats to reach those 20 homers.

The Rangers can get rid of one of the problems Andrus represents, not by trading him but by simply moving him out of the No. 2 spot. Manager Ron Washington always insisted in having speed in that spot, even if Andrus grew increasingly careless with how he used it. Last season’s 27 steals with 15 times caught stealing represented Elvis at his worst on the base paths.

As a No. 8 hitter, given the fact he can still help the team defensively, Andrus isn’t bad. He’s just badly overpaid. If this team wants to get better right away, it has to live with some of its accounting errors that came about during its brief but inspired run at a championship."

Sound familiar? As in the Braves are just going to have to live with the mistakes that were the B. J. and Uggla contracts???

And not only was 2012 by far Elvis' best offensive season, his numbers have now declined significantly for two consecutive seasons. "Believing 2015 will be a big season for him" is GM-speak. Here's a pretty good comparison for you...

Player A:
Age 23 - .286/.349/.378, 21 SBs, 92 OPS+
Age 24 - .278/.321/.338, 42 SBs, 82 OPS+
Age 25 - .263/.313/.333, 27 SBs, 84 OPS+

Change - -.023/-.036/-.045

Player B:
Age 23 - .273/.383/.401, 44 SBs, 108 OPS+
Age 24 - .241/.313/.373, 44 SBs, 82 OPS+
Age 25 - .237/.322/.424, 42 SBs, 106 OPS+

Change - -.036/-.061/+.023


If everyone proclaiming to have seen B. J. turning into what he has at the time he signed his deal doesn't see similar signs in Andrus' numbers you've got blinders on. The difference? We owe Upton three ~$15 million years - anyone taking on Elvis' contract is taking more than twice as big a gamble.

[Hawk]

Absolutely. And that difference typically lies in either who the reporter breaking the story is or who's feeding said reporter information.

Let's ignore for a moment that Rosenthal is the one saying "The Rangers are willing to deal any of their shortstops, but Elvis Andrus is the least likely to be moved because the team believes 2015 will be a big season for the 26-year-old." while none of the Texas writers have mentioned anything approaching that.

It's pretty foolhardy to dismiss Rosenthal, arguably the preeminent national baseball journalist in the field, just because he's not reporting the same information that Dallas beat writers are (or aren't in this case). When's the last time David O'Brien or Mark Bowman broke a significant story regarding the Braves? It's even more baffling to then prop up Tim Cowlishaw -- who is a columnist (not reporter) -- as a legitimate/knowledgeable/reputable entity.


If everyone proclaiming to have seen B. J. turning into what he has at the time he signed his deal doesn't see similar signs in Andrus' numbers you've got blinders on. The difference? We owe Upton three ~$15 million years - anyone taking on Elvis' contract is taking more than twice as big a gamble.

It's a gamble, no doubt -- but as I've already mentioned, if the Braves are serious about re-tooling vs. rebuilding, then ridding themselves of BJ Upton's contract is integral to that process. No team is going to trade the Braves any talent for him, and the team majorly loses out if they dump Minor/Gattis just to get rid of BJ.

Look, I've not once in this thread advocated for the Braves to trade Upton straight up for Andrus. I suggested that the only way to make acquiring Andrus potentially worth the risk would be for the Braves to move other pieces in the process in order to obtain some of the Rangers' premium talent in return.

For example:

Justin Upton
BJ Upton
Mike Minor

for

Andrus
Prospect A (top tier: Choice/Williams/Gonzalez/Profar whomever)
Prospect B (mid/low tier)
Cash ($5-10MM)

The Braves clear BJ's $46MM, Justin's $14.5MM, and Minor's ~5MM+ = $65MM
The Braves assume Andrus' $120MM less Upton/Upton/Minor = $55M ... less cash received.
Potential prospect value ($10MM-$30MM)

It's not perfect, but it's far from unreasonable. The Braves kill off a major liability in BJ, move Justin for some top shelf talent, and still have plenty of financial wiggle room to compete moving forward. Add Lester and some OF help and you compete in 2015.

I don't agree with your assessment of Andrus, but also don't deny that the way the numbers are trending is discouraging. That being said, even despite those perceived shortcomings, he could still help the Braves immediately at the top of the order with his speed and on-base ability as well as make a pretty damn good partner with Andrelton at the keystone. Plus, he's still incredibly young and owns the same basic skillset that Texas thought they were investing in when they extended him to begin with. That's way more than can be said for BJ, who is unlikely to ever meaningfully contribute for this club again.

[zitothebrave]

The issue with Bossman is he never was the defender Andrus is, and Andrus really doesn't have any farther to fall.

There are alarming trends with Andrus that mean he could go further, he went from 9.5 BB% in 2010 to 8.0 in 2012 to 6.7 last year, while his K rate is about the same.

ANdrus is a terrible contract, If we could swap Bossman for ANdrus and cash considerations (maybe we send some to them short term, they send a lot to us long term, as Andrus is signed for 5 more years at about 75 million more) as part of a bigger Justin or Gattis trade we could be cooking with gas.

Let's theorize 2 trades. First we trade CJ for a bucket of balls, we won't get much more and don't need much more. When he was extended his short term loss was he was highly tradeable his long term potential was a bounceback and he could be an actual asset. So we dump him for a bum. Some 26 year old in A ball.

Then we pull this off. Bossman, Justin, Hale, and Russell for Andrus, about 56M in cash spread out over 8 years as the rangers seem fit as long as payments start by the time BJ is out of contract, Joey Gallo, Alex Gonzalez and Lewis Brinson

So our team looks something like this next year with long term in parenthesis.

C - Bethancourt
1B - Freeman
2B - Andrus
3B - Gallo
SS - Simmons
LF - Gattis (maybe there long term too, if not, who knows, Davidson?)
CF - Cunnigham (Peraza)
RF - Rios (signed to 2 year, long term Brinson, maybe Davidson)

Use our massive savings to splurge on Lester.

Rotation
Lester
Julio
Wood
Minor
Miller

It creates a for sure better long term projection team than we have now. I mean again, ideally I'd rather keep Justin but that seems a forgone conclusion that he's gone.

[rico43]

If the Braves are going to chase a former player with a bad contract I would rather they go after Prado.

[50PoundHead]

If the Braves are going to chase a former player with a bad contract I would rather they go after Prado.

Dalyn just went on suicide watch because of your post.

I'm curious as to why Texas would want J. Upton. They don't appear to be close to contending. I thought the Red Sox would have greater interest, but they seem to be going in different directions with the courting of Ramirez and Sandoval.

[clvclv]

Dalyn just went on suicide watch because of your post.

I'm curious as to why Texas would want J. Upton. They don't appear to be close to contending. I thought the Red Sox would have greater interest, but they seem to be going in different directions with the courting of Ramirez and Sandoval.

Like us (for a long time before we got him), Texas and Seattle have always been terribly interested in him. I can't speak for their "whys" other than the supposition that they (like Wren - as amazing as it seems to say it) were a bit ahead of the curve in their recognition that the shortage of true right-handed power hitters who could play in any park was going to be as big a shortage as it is before we landed him (as well as Uggla and gave Gattis his shot).

Texas has always made a little more sense from my point of view because he's always been almost a perfect fit for years - a middle of the lineup of Beltre/Hamilton/Upton before and Beltre/Fielder/Upton now has always been a scary proposition - and money to meet his market has never been a concern there.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Rangers Inquire About Braves Outfielder Justin Upton

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/11/24/7275933/rangers-inquire-about-braves-outfielder-justin-upton

[Hawk]

"The Rangers would also be interested in acquiring a pitcher from the Braves in a deal, a source said."

[Dalyn]

If the Braves are going to chase a bad always injured former player with an equally bad contract I would rather they go after Prado.

https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1380430088/862135.gif

[rico43]

It's not nice to put words in the mouth of a moderator.

Jeez people, Prado wasn't hurt, his freaking appendix nearly blew up on him. Same as it did Heyward, if I recall. He was Yankees' hottest hitter when he went down.

[emk418]

It doesn't seem like we match up with the Rangers for Upton. I wonder who we're interested in

[Enscheff]

"The Rangers would also be interested in acquiring a pitcher from the Braves in a deal, a source said."

I suggested this yesterday since the Rangers are also looking to add to the rotation. Since Minor is not under control through 2017, he is a candidate to be packaged with JUp. If JUp is "worth" Taijuan Walker, then I would have to think any package with both JUp and Minor would have to start with Profar and be added to from there.

Profar would solve either 3B or 2B for the next half decade and would be a solid centerpiece in such a deal. I don't know the Rangers' system well enough to suggest what might be added.

EDIT: Just read about Profar's injury. I don't think Odor is enough of a centerpiece for a JUp/Minor package, and since Gallo and Alfaro are supposedly untouchable, I don't see much that the Rangers could offer.

[Dalyn]

I like the idea of packaging Justin, Minor, and BJ together. Saves so much money between now and 2017 that Hart could do just about anything.

[nsacpi]

Minor was a Super 2 last year, which means he is under team control for 2015, 2016 and 2017. Not that whether a player is under team control for 2017 should be the sole determining factor regarding whether we should trade him or not.

[COGPK]

I like the idea of packaging Justin, Minor, and BJ together. Saves so much money between now and 2017 that Hart could do just about anything.

It's crazy, but it's almost worth giving those 3 up for a bag of balls and you would be ahead of the game. You lose Minor but look at the money you have to sign some guys. So, I would be up for most any deal involving those 3.

[Tapate50]

It's crazy, but it's almost worth giving those 3 up for a bag of balls and you would be ahead of the game. You lose Minor but look at the money you have to sign some guys. So, I would be up for most any deal involving those 3.

It is crazy, but I agree. The flexibility is key, as we could snag Lester or even Sherzer and still not be adding payroll.

[thewupk]

It is crazy, but I agree. The flexibility is key, as we could snag Lester or even Sherzer and still not be adding payroll.

That would be shedding one bad contract for another.

[Tapate50]

That would be shedding one bad contract for another.

I guess that would depend on their performance ?

[thewupk]

I guess that would depend on their performance ?

Sure. But big contracts for pitchers usually don't end well.

[Dalyn]

Minor was a Super 2 last year, which means he is under team control for 2015, 2016 and 2017. Not that whether a player is under team control for 2017 should be the sole determining factor regarding whether we should trade him or not.

Yes. But he is going to get expensive before this magical 2017 Hart keeps talking about.

[Enscheff]

Minor was a Super 2 last year, which means he is under team control for 2015, 2016 and 2017. Not that whether a player is under team control for 2017 should be the sole determining factor regarding whether we should trade him or not.

I didn't realize Minor was under team control for 2017, but I think Hart has shown that the plan is to unload any asset that won't be a contributor to the 2017 team. Heyward and Walden would have been FAs by then, TLS would have lost his starting spot to Peraza by then, and since JUp won't be around he is going to be shipped out as well.

In fact, the main reason Hart gave for keeping Gattis and moving him to LF was that he was under control for 4 more years. Hart has been pretty clear about his plans with his statements and actions.

All of these actions tell me the plan is to build for 2017. I would imagine any FA acquisitions this offseason will either be for 1 year, or 4+ years.

[Dalyn]

It's crazy, but it's almost worth giving those 3 up for a bag of balls and you would be ahead of the game. You lose Minor but look at the money you have to sign some guys. So, I would be up for most any deal involving those 3.

You could get more than a bag of balls. Even tied to BJ, Upton and Minor together carry some value.

[COGPK]

You could get more than a bag of balls. Even tied to BJ, Upton and Minor together carry some value.

I realize that. Just making a point. You figure to lose Justin in a year anyway. You would be giving Minor away to get rid of BJ. But, in reality, we should get something for them. I wonder if Texas would bite since they are looking for pitching as well?

[Dalyn]

I realize that. Just making a point. You figure to lose Justin in a year anyway. You would be giving Minor away to get rid of BJ. But, in reality, we should get something for them. I wonder if Texas would bite since they are looking for pitching as well?

Yeah. I think Minor pretty much takes care of BJ, so you still should get Justin's value. The added trouble will be finding a team capable of taking all three.

[50PoundHead]

Been thinking about this for awhile now and I have a crazy deal that I think would benefit both teams, so here it goes...

Trade Justin Upton, Mike Minor, and David Hale to the Cincinnati Reds for Johnny Cueto, Jay Bruce, and Ben Lively.

-From the Reds perspective: They realize that the chances of them re-signing Cueto are slim to none mainly because of the contracts given to Joey Votto, Homer Bailey, and Brandon Phillips. Within the next 2-3 years (and sooner for some) they will be faced with extending Mat Latos (2015), Mike Leake (2015), Alfredo Simon (2015), Aroldis Chapman (2017), Todd Frazier (2018), and Devin Mesoraco (2018). With this trade it would allow them to compete this year and in the feature by giving them the needed protection for Votto in Upton (who could capitalize on Great American Ballpark in his contract year), and the rotation stability in Minor since they have numerous pitchers about to be FA.

-From the Braves perspective: We know we won't be able to extend Justin Upton, therefore trading him makes the most sense. In Cueto, we instantly gain an "Ace" or at least another top of the rotation starter who like Upton will be a free agent after this year. With the trade of Heyward and now Upton we have no outfield prospects who are ready to produce at the big league level and with this trade we get Jay Bruce -who is under contract thru 2017 (he has a $13 million club option for 2017)- who would become our RF of the future. Bruce has a ton of power and plays great defense in RF. Lively, who is a pretty decent RHP prospect would help even out the deal and could eventually become a solid #4/#5 starter.

With the money saved in the Heyward deal and now this one -we could gain even more by pairing B.J and Gattis together- we could go and sign Lester -for all intensive purposes- to take Minor's rotation spot. Now all of a sudden we are putting together a club that can compete now and in 2017. Our offense this year wouldn't have as much "pop" but with a tweak or two could give us all we need behind a rotation of: Lester/Cueto/Teheran/Wood/Miller. Now next year when Cueto and Dan Uggla's salaries come off our books, go use that money on a bat.

Just pure speculation on my part, but I would really like this.

I've heard the Reds are shopping Bruce, which is a bit surprising. He was their "Heyward" before having a miserable 2014 season. I want to make it clear I am only comparing Bruce to Heyward in a labelled commodity sense, not saying Bruce is better (or as good) than Heyward.

[GovClintonTyree]

Yeah. I think Minor pretty much takes care of BJ, so you still should get Justin's value. The added trouble will be finding a team capable of taking all three.

Hello, Z? John Hart here.

[Hawk]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
The #Mariners would like to have #Braves OF Justin Upton but say they will explore the free agent market (Nelson Cruz) first.

[nsacpi]

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
The #Mariners would like to have #Braves OF Justin Upton but say they will explore the free agent market (Nelson Cruz) first.

We can afford to wait. There is a glut of pitching. Hitting is at a premium. Price of hitting relative to pitching is going to rise.

[Braves1976]

We can afford to wait. There is a glut of pitching. Hitting is at a premium. Price of hitting relative to pitching is going to rise.

True, though if we do a deal with Seattle for Justin Upton, then I'd like to do a package deal where we get Paxton or Walker and Michael Saunders. They seem to be willing to deal the latter, and since he is coming off an injury prone season, maybe we can buy low on him.

Saunders could play either RF or LF for us and fill in sparingly in centerfield as needed. But he isn't good in center-field despite what someone on here assumed, he has a career -25 DRS in centerfield (including -14 DRS in only 627 innings in 2013 and -13 DRS in 973 innings in 2012). However, Saunders is good in both RF and LF, 9 DRS in 758 innings over three years in right and 6 DRS in 1335 innings in left field.

PS: If we fall out of the playoff race in 2015 as expected due to a rebuild year (including still having Fredi as manager), then we could play him in centerfield too and not worry about it. The higher draft pick the better in that case.

[Enscheff]

We can afford to wait. There is a glut of pitching. Hitting is at a premium. Price of hitting relative to pitching is going to rise.

I'm actually surprised we haven't heard more rumors about Gattis being traded. In Cruz' career year last season he hit a HR every 17 PA, is probably going to cost $17M+ per year over 4+ years, isn't very good defensively, and is going to be 35. In his 2 year career Gattis has hit a HR every 18.2 PA. He would fit in perfectly for the M's as the primary DH and backup C.

My guess is if Hart signs Tomas, both Gattis and Upton will be traded. If Tomas signs elsewhere only Upton will be traded. If the return for either includes a MLB ready SP, Minor will be traded. If a 3B option comes back in one of those trades, CJ will be dumped on one of the teams that missed out on Sandoval and Headley.

All of the Braves remaining offseason moves hinge on where Tomas signs.

[GovClintonTyree]

I'm actually surprised we haven't heard more rumors about Gattis being traded. In Cruz' career year last season he hit a HR every 17 PA, is probably going to cost $17M+ per year over 4+ years, isn't very good defensively, and is going to be 35. In his 2 year career Gattis has hit a HR every 18.2 PA. He would fit in perfectly for the M's as the primary DH and backup C.

I think there will be opportunities to flip Justin. And we may have to wait for some of the teams to realize they ain't getting Tomas, or whomever. We can afford to be patient.

As a point of information, I was on some of the Seattle message boards where some of the proposals we find logical and reasonable (adding Gattis and getting back Taijuan, Saunders, Miller, for example) are met with absolute derision. "Why would we want a DH who's hurt half the time?" "DJ Peterson should be off the table." "Walker is our next ace." **** like that.

It's kind of like they overvalue their assets the same way we may overvalue ours from time to time. Shocking, I know.

[Braves1976]

I think there will be opportunities to flip Justin. And we may have to wait for some of the teams to realize they ain't getting Tomas, or whomever. We can afford to be patient.

As a point of information, I was on some of the Seattle message boards where some of the proposals we find logical and reasonable (adding Gattis and getting back Taijuan, Saunders, Miller, for example) are met with absolute derision. "Why would we want a DH who's hurt half the time?" "DJ Peterson should be off the table." "Walker is our next ace." **** like that.

It's kind of like they overvalue their assets the same way we may overvalue ours from time to time. Shocking, I know.

I agree with the patient approach, we should take our time given how in demand right handed power hitters are right now. Further, I am not surprised that the Seattle fans are very high on those prospects because they are very good prospects.

[Hawk]

I do worry a bit about the market watering down with names like Kemp and Bruce becoming available recently. It's probable other teams with surplus RHH power look to cash-in as well.

[Enscheff]

Patient, yes, but not too patient that teams start moving on to Plan B or C. Once Tomas signs and the market for Cruz crystallizes, Hart needs to have the JUp and/or Gattis deal(s) done pretty much immediately after those two events.

If teams start filling their RHed power needs with a creative Kemp deal, or a Byrd/Cespedes trade, it will be too late to get the max return on either guy.

There is a fine line between being too eager and striking while the iron is hot, and Hart needs to walk it very carefully. Hart pretty much has to trade Upton this offseason, so his only source of leverage is the demand from multiple teams. Once that demand starts to dry up the Braves become more desperate to move Upton than other teams will be to acquire him.

The moment Seattle offers Walker or Paxton, Hart needs to pull the trigger.

[nsacpi]

The 2017 number that is of utmost relevance is $16.25 million. That's BJ's salary in 2017. If the focus is really on 2017, I would expect Hart to move a chunk of that. There are various ways to do that including paying another team a certain amount in 2015 and 2016 to move the 2017 salary owed to BJ.

[Enscheff]

The 2017 number that is of utmost relevance is $16.25 million. That's BJ's salary in 2017. If the focus is really on 2017, I would expect Hart to move a chunk of that. There are various ways to do that including paying another team a certain amount in 2015 and 2016 to move the 2017 salary owed to BJ.

I just don't see any way Hart moves BJ and saves enough money to be worth more than just keeping him as the 4th OFer. It's not like the system has any OFers ready to step in and be a legit option, even as just a 4th OFer.

Once he includes enough cash and/or prospects to facilitate a trade, and then acquires a 4th OFer capable of backing up CF (like Bonifacio), what did the team really save?

[Hawk]

I agree. BJ would be lucky to get a Minor League deal with a Spring Training invitation if he were a free agent right now. I can't imagine a team being willing to take on even a heavily subsidized version of his contract.

[Heyward]

I agree. BJ would be lucky to get a Minor League deal with a Spring Training invitation if he were a free agent right now. I can't imagine a team being willing to take on even a heavily subsidized version of his contract.

He'd get more than a minor league deal if he was a FA.

But i do agree im not sure they'd save much by trading him for whatever.

[Braves1976]

It's not like the system has any OFers ready to step in and be a legit option, even as just a 4th OFer.


That is simply not true, we have a number of 4th outfielder types. Cedric Hunter probably being the best as he played great in AA last year would be a solid 4th outfielder or better in the Majors right now. He even looked okay his cup of coffee in the Majors with the Padres a few years ago. But he's also improved over the past year to where I wouldn't rule him out as starter material in the Majors eventually.

That said, I could see us losing Hunter in the Rule 5 Draft to another team as he isn't on the 40-man roster.

[Enscheff]

That is simply not true, we have a number of 4th outfielder types. Cedric Hunter probably being the best as he played great in AA last year would be a solid 4th outfielder or better in the Majors right now. He even looked okay his cup of coffee in the Majors with the Padres a few years ago. But he's also improved over the past year to where I wouldn't rule him out as starter material in the Majors eventually.

That said, I could see us losing Hunter in the Rule 5 Draft to another team as he isn't on the 40-man roster.

Umm...

Cedric Hunter has 4 ABs at the MLB level in 2011, and you say he looked OK? Best scouting eye ever!

He is currently going into his age 27 season and just played in AA last year. The Braves acquired him after stints in the Padres and Indians systems, not exactly organizations with tons of OF talent that was keeping him down, or preventing him from being a 4th OFer.

[Braves1976]

I agree. BJ would be lucky to get a Minor League deal with a Spring Training invitation if he were a free agent right now. I can't imagine a team being willing to take on even a heavily subsidized version of his contract.

My guess is our best shot is deal similar to the one we already had a chance to do with the Cubs. That deal is apparently no longer available, but other than one like it or getting a team to take BJ because they want Justin, Minor, and/or Gattis I don't see him going anywhere this off-season.

[Braves1976]

Umm...

Cedric Hunter has 4 ABs at the MLB level, and you say he looked OK? Best scouting eye ever!

He is currently going into his age 27 season and just played in AA last year. The Braves acquired him from after stints in the padres and Indians systems, not exactly organizations with tons of OF talent that was keeping him down, or preventing him from being a 4th OFer.

OK smart arss, I said it was a cup of coffee as it was only 6 games, 5 PA (1-4 with 1BB) and he did look okay both in the field and at the plate. But more importantly he has looked even better over the past year. Hunter has always had a good eye and now that he is healthy again he is showing more power, etc. Plus he's good defensively and can play every outfield position too.

[Heyward]

I dont get why everyone wants to trade Justin, Gattis and Minor.

Minor is under control for 3 more years.

Gattis for 4.

No argument with JUP with his contract situation but they dont have to trade them.