View Full Version : Braves sniffing around on Markakis; Official 4 years 44 million.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/24859035/markakis-market-braves-blue-jays-giants-os-among-those-in-mix
Veteran outfielder Nick Markakis, who seemed for a while to be a pretty god bet to return to the Orioles, is listening to outside offers now and said to have interest from the Braves, Blue Jays and Giants, among others.
Atlanta is an interesting entry since Markakis grew up in Woodstock, Ga., went to Young Harris College and has a home in Georgia (as he does in Maryland). The Braves traded right fielder Jason Heyward and are listening to offers for another top outfielder, Justin Upton, so there definitely is room for Markakis.
...
It's no surprise Markakis has a solid market after another very nice season, in which he hit .276 with 14 home runs and 50 RBI, and also took home his second Gold Glove award. The one hurdle was probably the perception that it's a fait accompli he'd remain with Baltimore. What may be a susprise is that the hometown Braves are among teams in the mix.
Another disappointment in the waiting.
thethe
12-02-2014, 11:41 AM
Not expecting anything but would be a nice poor mans version of Heyward at a much cheaper rate.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 11:41 AM
I have reason to believe that the correct assumption is that he will end up being the right player at the wrong time for the Braves.
Not expecting anything but would be a nice poor mans version of Heyward at a much cheaper rate.
I don't see Markakis signing for cheaper than $7.8MM.
zitothebrave
12-02-2014, 11:48 AM
Not expecting anything but would be a nice poor mans version of Heyward at a much cheaper rate.
I highly doubt Markakis takes that much less than 8 million.
Markakis also is a very poor man's Heyward, in his 9 years as a pro he's compiled a 22.6 fWAR, Jason in his 5 years has compiled a 21.4 fWAR. Offensively they're almost identical, but the defensive swing is massive.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 11:49 AM
I don't see Markakis signing for cheaper than $8.5MM.
Seems about right. That's the going rate for a 1 WAR player. Over four seasons, I'd expect 1.5, 1.5, 1 and 1 our of him. So 8.5M might be on the low side of what he can expect.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 11:51 AM
I highly doubt Markakis takes that much less than 8 million.
Markakis also is a very poor man's Heyward, in his 9 years as a pro he's compiled a 22.6 fWAR, Jason in his 5 years has compiled a 21.4 fWAR. Offensively they're almost identical, but the defensive swing is massive.
His WAR numbers the last four seasons: 1.7, 1.6, 0.0 (in over 700 PAs) and 2.5. Some team might be willing to pay him based on last season (like the Mariners with Cruz). I hope it's not us.
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 11:54 AM
Markakis makes some sense once the JUp and Gattis trades are complete. He is durable, can play RF competently (though not at Heyward's level), and should provide an OBP around ~.350 with some decent pop (10-15 HRs). He is literally a poor man's Jason Heyward, but without the recent platoon split Heyward has shown. He would slot in very nicely at the top of the lineup.
The problem is obviously going to be the price. He has already turned down a 4 year deal from the O's for $10M-$12M per year, and I don't think the Braves should be trying to top that offer. If he can be had for around 4/40 I think he would be a solid addition.
yeezus
12-02-2014, 11:57 AM
Markakis makes some sense once the JUp and Gattis trades are complete. He is durable, can play RF competently (though not at Heyward's level), and should provide an OBP around ~.350 with some decent pop (10-15 HRs). He is literally a poor man's Jason Heyward, but without the recent platoon split Heyward has shown. He would slot in very nicely at the top of the lineup.
AND without Heyward's upside, which is still substantial.
50PoundHead
12-02-2014, 11:59 AM
I've always thought he might be a fallback option for the Braves, but it's all going to depend on price. I don't like his trend line. If he's turned down $10 MM per year from the O's, I don't see him as being a fit for us.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 11:59 AM
The word I heard this morning is that the negotiations fell apart after the Orioles started waffling on the fourth year. The offer on the table apparently stood at 4/$50 million.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 12:02 PM
As it stands now, we'd have to sign Markakis before completing an Upton and/or Gattis deal even if you assume something's closer than Hart's letting on - Markakis makes a ton more sense for Toronto than Melky if they're looking to save some money.
50PoundHead
12-02-2014, 12:04 PM
I think the thing is if we didn't view ourselves as contenders with Heyward, why would we invest in Markakis? I get the financial implications and all that, but it just wouldn't seem to make that much sense to sign Markakis except that someone has to stand in RF.
I think the thing is if we didn't view ourselves as contenders with Heyward, why would we invest in Markakis? I get the financial implications and all that, but it just wouldn't seem to make that much sense to sign Markakis except that someone has to stand in RF.
It lends itself greatly to the theory of the Braves desire to move Heyward having little to do with finance.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 12:18 PM
I think the thing is if we didn't view ourselves as contenders with Heyward, why would we invest in Markakis? I get the financial implications and all that, but it just wouldn't seem to make that much sense to sign Markakis except that someone has to stand in RF.
Agreed.
The only thing I could fathom that would make them feel that way was that they've got information that leads them to believe we CAN extend Justin. IF that were the case and there are legs to the Gattis-to-Houston rumor I saw that could bring back Fowler plus, it makes some sense. However...
CF- Fowler, RF- Markakis, LF- Justin, 1B- Freeman, 3B- Johnson, 2B- Peraza, SS- Simmons, C- Bethancourt
probably projects to be much more consistent than we ever were last season.
If Gattis nets you Fowler and Colin Moran we could be cooking with gas.
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 12:23 PM
It lends itself greatly to the theory of the Braves desire to move Heyward having little to do with finance.
No, it means the Braves could afford to spend $10M for a RFer, but can't afford to spend $25M on a RFer no matter how good he might be some day.
It's a little silly how some posters insist on making the Heyward trade anything more than the simple fact "the Braves couldn't afford the asking price of a RFer that wasn't a consistent middle of the lineup producer". Freeman has proven to be that consistent middle of the order bat, so he got the big bucks. Heyward hasn't yet proven it, so he didn't get the same money from the Braves.
Seriously, does every damn thread have to be turned into a Heyward bitchfest?
Seriously, does every damn thread have to be turned into a Heyward bitchfest?
Yes, because he was a crucial component of the team and beloved by the fanbase -- and the move to trade him precipitated the 're-tooling' era that we find ourselves in now. And there haven't been any moves since. So it's a fairly natural line of debate.
Also, don't you find it contradictory that the team moves Heyward under the flimsily evidenced auspices of 'He wanted big bucks' but subsequently involves itself in the process of spending those big bucks anyways?
Saying that the Braves didn't see Heyward being worth the money is essentially the same thing as saying they didn't want to pay him $25MM.
yeezus
12-02-2014, 12:27 PM
Agreed.
The only thing I could fathom that would make them feel that way was that they've got information that leads them to believe we CAN extend Justin. IF that were the case and there are legs to the Gattis-to-Houston rumor I saw that could bring back Fowler plus, it makes some sense. However...
CF- Fowler, RF- Markakis, LF- Justin, 1B- Freeman, 3B- Johnson, 2B- Peraza, SS- Simmons, C- Bethancourt
probably projects to be much more consistent than we ever were last season.
If Gattis nets you Fowler and Colin Moran we could be cooking with gas.
I don't agree that replacing Heyward with Fowler and Markakis makes us more consistent or better.
50PoundHead
12-02-2014, 12:27 PM
No, it means the Braves could afford to spend $10M for a RFer, but can't afford to spend $25M on a RFer no matter how good he might be some day.
It's a little silly how some posters insist on making the Heyward trade anything more than the simple fact "the Braves couldn't afford the asking price of a RFer that wasn't a consistent middle of the lineup producer". Freeman has proven to be that consistent middle of the order bat, so he got the big bucks. Heyward hasn't yet proven it, so he didn't get the same money from the Braves.
Seriously, does every damn thread have to be turned into a Heyward bitchfest?
I want to make it clear I'm not griping on the Heyward trade. I'm just saying that Markakis at 4 years doesn't make a ton of sense given his recent performance trend and the likely AAV of what it would take to sign him.
yeezus
12-02-2014, 12:28 PM
Yes, because he was a crucial component of the team and beloved by the fanbase -- and the move to trade him precipitated the 're-tooling' era that we find ourselves in now. And there haven't been any moves since. So it's a fairly natural line of debate.
It's a very relevant topic still in everything that happens after it.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 12:29 PM
As it stands now, we'd have to sign Markakis before completing an Upton and/or Gattis deal even if you assume something's closer than Hart's letting on - Markakis makes a ton more sense for Toronto than Melky if they're looking to save some money.
Given the way they back-loaded Martin's contract, Toronto might not have much in the way of 2015 payroll wiggle room left. They might be strongly motivated to move Buerhle or Dickey to create some.
MadduxFanII
12-02-2014, 12:30 PM
I think the thing is if we didn't view ourselves as contenders with Heyward, why would we invest in Markakis? I get the financial implications and all that, but it just wouldn't seem to make that much sense to sign Markakis except that someone has to stand in RF.
If one thinks that Markakis is essentially an equal replacement for Heyward, then a certain logic becomes apparent: replace Heyward with his non-union Mexican equivalent for less money, receive approximately the same level of production and add Miller to the rotation, filling one of the holes left by Harang and Santana.
I don't think that way, of course, but the logic is sound if you grant the first condition.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 12:32 PM
Also, don't you find it contradictory that the team moves Heyward under the flimsily evidenced auspices of 'He wanted big bucks' but subsequently involves itself in the process of spending those big bucks anyways?
Are you referring to kicking the tires on Lester?
clvclv
12-02-2014, 12:36 PM
No, it means the Braves could afford to spend $10M for a RFer, but can't afford to spend $25M on a RFer no matter how good he might be some day.
It's a little silly how some posters insist on making the Heyward trade anything more than the simple fact "the Braves couldn't afford the asking price of a RFer that wasn't a consistent middle of the lineup producer". Freeman has proven to be that consistent middle of the order bat, so he got the big bucks. Heyward hasn't yet proven it, so he didn't get the same money from the Braves.
Seriously, does every damn thread have to be turned into a Heyward bitchfest?
Thank you.
No matter how much bitching people here want to do, we've ALL known since the Freeman contract and other extensions were handed out last winter that...
WE WERE ONLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO RE-SIGN ONE OF HEYWARD OR UPTON UNLESS THE CONTRACT DO-OVER FAIRY TOOK B. J.'S CONTRACT AWAY.
Let it die already, geez. If you think Heyward was worth trying to extend INSTEAD of Justin, that's fine (and wrong) - you're welcome to have your own opinion. If you think there was a chance in hell we were ever going to be able to keep both without a new owner, new revenue structure, and a suddenly sold-out stadium for the next ten years, you're just not very bright.
Are you referring to kicking the tires on Lester?
Lester, Tomas, Markakis, recent supposed 'openness' to extending Justin Upton ... these are not remotely the type of moves that a cash-deprived organization would endeavor upon. Right?
50PoundHead
12-02-2014, 12:37 PM
If one thinks that Markakis is essentially an equal replacement for Heyward, then a certain logic becomes apparent: replace Heyward with his non-union Mexican equivalent for less money, receive approximately the same level of production and add Miller to the rotation, filling one of the holes left by Harang and Santana.
I don't think that way, of course, but the logic is sound if you grant the first condition.
I think the question on Heyward is whether or not "he is who he is" at this point. The Braves must think so. It is readily apparent to me that Markakis--at 31 and with considerably less in terms of physical tools than Heyward--"is who he is."
My point here is that I don't think the Braves are 2015 contenders with or without Heyward (certainly less so without him). You are more optimistic than me on that point.
Funny thing about Markakis is that the Braves loved him coming out of Young Harris, but he flew up the draft boards and the Orioles took him before the Braves could. Braves saw him as a pitcher. Of course, in those days, the Braves' scouting brass pretty much saw everyone as a pitcher.
WE WERE ONLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO RE-SIGN ONE OF HEYWARD OR UPTON UNLESS THE CONTRACT DO-OVER FAIRY TOOK B. J.'S CONTRACT AWAY.
And now we're going to re-sign zero of those two (in all likelihood).
Riddle me that, batman.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 12:39 PM
Lester, Tomas, Markakis, recent supposed 'openness' to extending Justin Upton ... these are not remotely the type of moves that a cash-deprived organization would endeavor upon. Right?
The question is whether any of that was genuine or just going through the motions. I try not to confuse activity with accomplishment.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 12:40 PM
Thank you.
No matter how much bitching people here want to do, we've ALL known since the Freeman contract and other extensions were handed out last winter that...
WE WERE ONLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO RE-SIGN ONE OF HEYWARD OR UPTON UNLESS THE CONTRACT DO-OVER FAIRY TOOK B. J.'S CONTRACT AWAY.
Let it die already, geez. If you think Heyward was worth trying to extend INSTEAD of Justin, that's fine (and wrong) - you're welcome to have your own opinion. If you think there was a chance in hell we were ever going to be able to keep both without a new owner, new revenue structure, and a suddenly sold-out stadium for the next ten years, you're just not very bright.
You might be right. How do you interpret our meeting with Lester and his agent in light of the above?
50PoundHead
12-02-2014, 12:42 PM
The question is whether any of that was genuine or just going through the motions. I try not to confuse activity with accomplishment.
True. Everybody yaks with each other all off-season and with the 24-hour sportsnews cycle and all the half-cocked self-appointed experts on the web, there's a lot more wrapper than there is candy bar.
The question is whether any of that was genuine or just going through the motions. I try not to confuse activity with accomplishment.
It's quite possible.
What puzzles me is why the team would send Gonzalez/Seitzer/Coppolella down to the Dominican Republican if they weren't serious about spending the dollars required to secure Tomas. Lester I could definitely chalk up to an exercise in PR.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 12:46 PM
Given the way they back-loaded Martin's contract, Toronto might not have much in the way of 2015 payroll wiggle room left. They might be strongly motivated to move Buerhle or Dickey to create some.
Yeah I noticed that too. Probably has as much to do with just balancing the books long-term though...they start paying him when those two are off the books and their young Pitchers are ready to replace them in the rotation though. Can't remember if it was on MLBTR, XM, or MLB Network, but something I saw/heard since the Donaldson trade led me to believe they still had room to bring Melky back if they were inclined to meet his asking price.
One way or the other, they seriously need a left handed bat to try to balance that lineup at least a little.
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 12:47 PM
If one thinks that Markakis is essentially an equal replacement for Heyward, then a certain logic becomes apparent: replace Heyward with his non-union Mexican equivalent for less money, receive approximately the same level of production and add Miller to the rotation, filling one of the holes left by Harang and Santana.
I don't think that way, of course, but the logic is sound if you grant the first condition.
I think this was exactly how the Braves viewed Heyward...a young, inconsistent, light hitting corner OFer with power potential that plays premium defense at a non-premium (meaning not up the middle) position, who was also starting to develop a poor platoon split vs LHed pitching. They simply could not afford to commit $200M+ to a player like that after whiffing so badly on Uggla and BJ (who was also signed largely based on potential). If Heyward had been the .900+ OPS monster he was predicted to be, I bet the Braves would have extended him at $25M per for 10 years by now.
Markakis most definitely is what he is...a 30+ year old consistent OBP threat with average power that can play a competent RF and doesn't have much of a platoon split at all. And thus, his price tag is half that of Heyward's.
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 12:49 PM
It's quite possible.
What puzzles me is why the team would send Gonzalez/Seitzer/Coppolella down to the Dominican Republican if they weren't serious about spending the dollars required to secure Tomas. Lester I could definitely chalk up to an exercise in PR.
It's quite possible that when those guys saw Tomas against live pitching they determined at that time he wasn't worth $70M.
It's quite possible that when those guys saw Tomas against live pitching they determined at that time he wasn't worth $70M.
The (entire) point is that they were willing to invest the money in a product they felt worthy of the spend.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 12:53 PM
I highly doubt Markakis takes that much less than 8 million.
Markakis also is a very poor man's Heyward, in his 9 years as a pro he's compiled a 22.6 fWAR, Jason in his 5 years has compiled a 21.4 fWAR. Offensively they're almost identical, but the defensive swing is massive.
True, Heyward is as great as you'll see in right field on defense and Markakis had a -14 DRS over two seasons before last year improving to only a 1 DRS in right field. He has also had a -11 DRS season in right field too.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 12:53 PM
An alternative approach to Markakis is to find a team with a corner outfielder with a bad contract and take that player on and send BJ over. There are teams with surplus corner outfielders and a need for someone who can play center who might consider this. Some cash might have to go in one direction or another to make the deal work. I'm thinking of Ethier, Choo, Kemp, Craig, Victorino. It just seems to me that this kind of approach makes more sense in light of our need to free up cash to upgrade at center and elsewhere.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 12:55 PM
You might be right. How do you interpret our meeting with Lester and his agent in light of the above?
I think it was exactly what they said it was - kicking the tires to see what we'd have to do in the event we moved Justin. "Hey Jon, we understand you'd love to pitch here and we'd love to have you. You don't have to talk dollars and specifics, but we're operating under the assumption that Boston's reported offer of 6/$110 million is relatively close. In the event we're able to move some salaries and make a deal or two before you've made your decision would you like us to get back in touch if we can get around the 5/$100 million range? We may not be a contender in 2015, but we're willing to go down that road in discussions about reshaping our roster with other teams with our eye on being a legitimate threat to win it all no later than 2017."
Since that meeting we've figured out that the Cubs blew that number out of the water and the Sox will push further if they need to. There's no reason to feel we could get close enough to that ballpark even if he were willing to give us a $10-$20 million hometown discount. I'd even be willing to bet Hart or someone has called him since the Cubs' offer was leaked and told him we couldn't.
Markakis most definitely is what he is...a 30+ year old consistent OBP threat with average power that can play a competent RF and doesn't have much of a platoon split at all. And thus, his price tag is half that of Heyward's.
Markakis is a 31 year old player, already in decline, with considerable injury risk, asking for a 4-year commitment.
Not exactly a negligible risk proposition.
Millwood1Hitter
12-02-2014, 12:59 PM
Markakis is a 31 year old player, already in decline, with considerable injury risk, asking for a 4-year commitment.
Not exactly a negligible risk proposition.
So he's the right player at the wrong age then at the wrong stage of his career.....right? Right! Mr Hart!
emk418
12-02-2014, 01:08 PM
Markakis is a great fit. Not happening but I would love him
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 01:10 PM
Markakis is a 31 year old player, already in decline, with considerable injury risk, asking for a 4-year commitment.
Not exactly a negligible risk proposition.
Considerable injury risk? The man has played in 155+ games every year for the last 8 years except 2012 (104). How is that a considerable injury risk?
I'm not saying he is some cornerstone to build the 2017 team around, but he can certainly provide a consistent OBP and a bit of power in a corner OF spot if/when JUp is traded. For $10M per year I'm not sure what else you expect.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 01:10 PM
And now we're going to re-sign zero of those two (in all likelihood).
Riddle me that, batman.
Read Page 1 - it's post #15.
Hart's been quoted several times saying that there are no current trade negotiations going on and that they've made no calls "shopping" Upton. He's also said consistently that they are open to discussing an extension when and if the time is right, and that they're always "listening" when others make offers - they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't.
If you have inside information that no one else has heard, feel free to spill the beans - I'm sure we'll all jump on Twitter and help you scoop Rosenthal, Heyman, Morosi, DOB, et al.
cajunrevenge
12-02-2014, 01:11 PM
I was real big Markakis as a prospect. He was actually a lot like Heyward but with a lot less speed and a better arm. He had a 6 war season when he was 25 and that was without gold glove defense.
4/50 is kind of pricey but I would strongly consider it. He has consistently shown a good walk rate and has never hit below .271 and that was an injury plagued year. I think he could potentially raise his batting average to .290 which would get his OBP to .360 and slugging% to .400.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 01:16 PM
Markakis replaces every last bit of offensive production Heyward's ever put up other than his rookie season for less than extravagant money is the only point anyone's making here.
Heyward's gone, and it doesn't make one bit of difference who you plug in RF, the defense will suffer. Everyone understands. If you can add someone on a much shorter deal and use the excess money to build a deeper lineup around Freddie and Justin while still getting what we've gotten from him offensively you've improved the offense. It really is that simple.
Considerable injury risk? The man has played in 155+ games every year for the last 8 years except 2012 (104). How is that a considerable injury risk?
I'm not saying he is some cornerstone to build the 2017 team around, but he can certainly provide a consistent OBP and a bit of power in a corner OF spot if/when JUp is traded. For $10M per year I'm not sure what else you expect.
Considerable risk by virtue of his age. And wrist issues that could continue to suck away what little power he already flashes.
He's not going to get $10MM either. $12MM-$13MM is far more likely.
That's almost in BJ Upton territory.
If this team is really not going to have the pieces to contend in 2015, then I'd rather save the money and sign a scrub like Wily Mo Pena.
UNCBlue012
12-02-2014, 01:22 PM
How about we sign Peavy, trade BJ (some cash included) and Gattis for Fowler and extend him, add Markakis and resign Boni.
This improves our rotation, our lineup, our bench and our financial stability.
Rotation: Teheran, Minor, Miller, Peavy, Wood.
Peraza 2B
Fowler CF
Freddie 1B
J Up LF
Markakis RF
CJoh 3B
Simba SS
C-Beth C
I'd look into Aoki as well. As I said, I'm big on him.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 01:24 PM
Considerable risk by virtue of his age. And wrist issues that could continue to suck away what little power he already flashes.
He's not going to get $10MM either. $12MM-$13MM is far more likely.
That's almost in BJ Upton territory.
If this team is really not going to have the pieces to contend in 2015, then I'd rather save the money and sign a scrub like Wily Mo Pena.
You're aware that Heyward slugged .384 while Markakis slugged .386 last season, right???
Hart's been quoted several times saying that there are no current trade negotiations going on and that they've made no calls "shopping" Upton. He's also said consistently that they are open to discussing an extension when and if the time is right, and that they're always "listening" when others make offers - they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't.
Wait, do you really believe that the Braves are not actually actively engaging in trade talk involving Justin Upton?
Because, notwithstanding the absurd amount of published information I could use to trounce that weak argument, is that why virtually every other one of your posts is a murph3-esque trade proposal involving Upton for prospect X and Y?
This strikes me as Lester 2.0. Braves like his makeup and wonder if he'll sign for a discount given his Georgia roots. If the Braves strategy is to build a roster that will peak in 2016-2018, Markakis is far from an ideal fit unless you get him to sign a team-friendly contract. He will probably re-sign with the Orioles. These media reports that read like "Player X has interest from Team A, Team B, Team C, etc." are usually coming from the player's agency and are often embellished.
gilesfan
12-02-2014, 01:28 PM
Unfortunately Markakis is regressing big time so signing him for over 10 mil per year is a huge risk. STEAMER projects him to hit .268/.334/.381 next year. You can get those type of numbers from some stop gap or platton; no point committing 3-4 years at 10 mil plus for it.
You're aware that Heyward slugged .384 while Markakis slugged .386 last season, right???
I'm going to save this here on a platter for somebody else to respond to.
ramadon101
12-02-2014, 01:33 PM
Regarding Tomas-- the Braves were serious about him, but Hart refused to entertain the idea of an opt-out. No formal offer was made but parameters were discussed and the Braves were not shying away from his salary expectations (or what he ultimately got from LaRussa and family). The opt-out ended talks pretty abruptly.
Regarding Lester-- they were doing their diligence on him as a Georgia resident, free agent, pitcher, would be a good fit in the clubhouse, etc. They met- did not discuss numbers- and no offer was made. The Braves, after hearing some of the numbers being thrown about for Lester, decided that he's too rich for their blood and that was the end of it. It wasn't meant to be a PR plug for the Braves- it was just an introductory meeting.
One thing is for sure about the Hart-JC led FO; they do not like to waste people's time (their own included). So if a player's own valuation is significantly different from the team's, they aren't just "going to make an offer" for the sake of making one. The Braves are very deliberate in their overtures when the time comes.
To be clear, I'm not saying I always agree with their moves. I did agree with the Heyward decision after learning what he was expecting (and now will likely test the FA waters and get that or more assuming he plays as expected in 2015 or better). I wouldn't be a huge fan of Markakis at the current numbers being thrown about; I'd rather go for Headley for the same cost, dump CJ somewhere and see what we can do in the OF (Aoki as a low cost option, or someone better via trade).
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 01:33 PM
Wait, do you really believe that the Braves are not actually actively engaging in trade talk involving Justin Upton?
Because, notwithstanding the absurd amount of published information I could use to trounce that weak argument, is that why virtually every other one of your posts is a murph3-esque trade proposal involving Upton for prospect X and Y?
I think it's clear the Braves are shopping JUp. I think what hart meant with his "we haven't made a single call" comment was that buyers are coming to him, he is not desperately looking for someone to take him.
One of two things will happen with JUp within the next 2-3 weeks: he will either be extended, or traded. There is simply no way Hart can let him walk after 2015 and only get the 30th pick in the draft in exchange for the premier RHed power bat available.
MadduxFanII
12-02-2014, 01:42 PM
Rosenthal mentioned Colby Rasums as a potential Markakis replacement in Baltimore. He would be an interesting buy-low candidate for us, and his dad wasn't shy about expressing the wish that Colby would end up with the Braves when the Cards dealt him.
Granted, if your goal is to add contact and consistency, he's not going to help matters. But it's an idea.
clvclv
12-02-2014, 01:42 PM
Wait, do you really believe that the Braves are not actually actively engaging in trade talk involving Justin Upton?
Because, notwithstanding the absurd amount of published information I could use to trounce that weak argument, is that why virtually every other one of your posts is a murph3-esque trade proposal involving Upton for prospect X and Y?
Because I love the "what-ifs" as much as everyone else does.
Again, I have no inside information. I listen to XM all day, watch MLB Network when I'm home, read MLBTR, Twitter, and this message board pretty consistently just like most everyone else does. Until someone can provide evidence that HART is the one actively engaged in something, I have little reason to doubt him. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy speculating and hoping any less than everyone else.
50PoundHead
12-02-2014, 01:44 PM
Rosenthal mentioned Colby Rasums as a potential Markakis replacement in Baltimore. He would be an interesting buy-low candidate for us, and his dad wasn't shy about expressing the wish that Colby would end up with the Braves when the Cards dealt him.
Granted, if your goal is to add contact and consistency, he's not going to help matters. But it's an idea.
I've thought about him as well, but his approach at the plate would just seem to add to the problem. Plus, the "party in the back" is looking like an absolute bacchanalia.
http://wpmedia.sports.nationalpost.com/2013/02/rasmus1.jpg?w=620
clvclv
12-02-2014, 01:49 PM
Regarding Tomas-- the Braves were serious about him, but Hart refused to entertain the idea of an opt-out. No formal offer was made but parameters were discussed and the Braves were not shying away from his salary expectations (or what he ultimately got from LaRussa and family). The opt-out ended talks pretty abruptly.
Regarding Lester-- they were doing their diligence on him as a Georgia resident, free agent, pitcher, would be a good fit in the clubhouse, etc. They met- did not discuss numbers- and no offer was made. The Braves, after hearing some of the numbers being thrown about for Lester, decided that he's too rich for their blood and that was the end of it. It wasn't meant to be a PR plug for the Braves- it was just an introductory meeting.
One thing is for sure about the Hart-JC led FO; they do not like to waste people's time (their own included). So if a player's own valuation is significantly different from the team's, they aren't just "going to make an offer" for the sake of making one. The Braves are very deliberate in their overtures when the time comes.
To be clear, I'm not saying I always agree with their moves. I did agree with the Heyward decision after learning what he was expecting (and now will likely test the FA waters and get that or more assuming he plays as expected in 2015 or better). I wouldn't be a huge fan of Markakis at the current numbers being thrown about; I'd rather go for Headley for the same cost, dump CJ somewhere and see what we can do in the OF (Aoki as a low cost option, or someone better via trade).
Most "inside information" anyone here's going to get, and likely as much as the celebrated scoopers (Rosenthal et al) will ever get either.
Thanks for the clarification ramadon.
Rosenthal mentioned Colby Rasums as a potential Markakis replacement in Baltimore. He would be an interesting buy-low candidate for us, and his dad wasn't shy about expressing the wish that Colby would end up with the Braves when the Cards dealt him.
Granted, if your goal is to add contact and consistency, he's not going to help matters. But it's an idea.
I could support this.
At least with Rasmus there is still some potential (only 28), plus defense, pop, versatility.
I'd also have to believe he'd be available for a cheaper bounty than Markakis. Maybe.
I've thought about him as well, but his approach at the plate would just seem to add to the problem. Plus, the "party in the back" is looking like an absolute bacchanalia.
http://wpmedia.sports.nationalpost.com/2013/02/rasmus1.jpg?w=620
I thought that was what you meant. Side note: That Toronto hat (with Maple Leaf) is baller.
http://cdn.na16.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/colby-rasmus-2013-mlb-photo-day.jpg
emk418
12-02-2014, 02:52 PM
Markakis is not a guy that's going to break the bank. He's very solid reliable bat with above average defense in RF. If we can sign him for $10-$12M and turn Heyward at $8M into Markakis, Shelby Miller, Jenkins for $10M-$12M that's a clear upgrade short term and long term for this team.
UNCBlue012
12-02-2014, 03:11 PM
Markakis is not a guy that's going to break the bank. He's very solid reliable bat with above average defense in RF. If we can sign him for $10-$12M and turn Heyward at $8M into Markakis, Shelby Miller, Jenkins for $10M-$12M that's a clear upgrade short term and long term for this team. This is my feelings exactly. If we get those three total and lose Jason, I believe it's a long-term win for the team. I love Jason and I miss him being a Brave, but I'm very high on miller and love Jenkins upside.
Julio3000
12-02-2014, 03:46 PM
Is that an official team photo? Wow. I knew he was an unfortunate-looking fellow, but he looks downright cadaverous there—like sometimes Ryan Langerhans looked like he was in the reaper's clutches? He looks worse. Also, is there a tariff on Photoshop in Canada? Christ, Blue Jays publicity department—touch up some of the worst-looking parts . . . like his hair . . . and his face.
Julio3000
12-02-2014, 03:49 PM
Sniffing around Markakis, eh?
If you smell baklava, sign him.
G. Laird out.
Yeah, I have no idea where that turn of phrase came from earlier. Maybe I was still thinking about those pictures of Mark Kotsay's wife.
mfree80
12-02-2014, 04:28 PM
After having gone through this thread... Obviously Markakis does not have the upside of Heyward, but he does provide something very important that the Braves APPEAR to be looking for. Consistency. When Heyward was good (and Justin for that matter) he/they were very good, but they went through periods (weeks and sometimes months) where they would disappear. Guys like Markakis, Saunders, Fowler, and some of the others we have heard in rumors, are not as good during those hot times, nor as bad in the down times. The Cardinals this past year proved that turning over the lineup with guys who get on base with regularity is just as effective as a lineup of guys who are easy outs, except when they hit the occasional big homer.
These guys we are talking about may not have star potential, but nor are they all or nothing type hitters.
I am more hopeful and optimistic about what I am hearing than most of you.
Millwood1Hitter
12-02-2014, 04:49 PM
After having gone through this thread... Obviously Markakis does not have the upside of Heyward, but he does provide something very important that the Braves APPEAR to be looking for. Consistency. When Heyward was good (and Justin for that matter) he/they were very good, but they went through periods (weeks and sometimes months) where they would disappear. Guys like Markakis, Saunders, Fowler, and some of the others we have heard in rumors, are not as good during those hot times, nor as bad in the down times. The Cardinals this past year proved that turning over the lineup with guys who get on base with regularity is just as effective as a lineup of guys who are easy outs, except when they hit the occasional big homer.
These guys we are talking about may not have star potential, but nor are they all or nothing type hitters.
I am more hopeful and optimistic about what I am hearing than most of you.
Agreed, we just need guys that have good at bats consistantly....all the time....period....part of it is the players and I believe the other part of thes solution is Seitzer, whom I believe will get the potential out of a guy like Simmons. I'm not saying he will be an offensive superstar, but we need to have more quality at bats game after game and the results will speak for themselves in the number of runs and wins, eventually.
Outside of Freeman, and occassionally Heyward and Justin, and early TLS our approach at the plate was awful. Less BJ's and more guys like Markakis are wanted.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 05:01 PM
I rather sign Nori Aoki as he'd be cheaper with probably similar production. Plus Aoki has been a lot more consistent, you can expect an average around .285-.288, OBP .349-.355 and OPS in the .710-.787 range along with 17-30 stolen bases. I like him better all things considered.
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 05:39 PM
I rather sign Nori Aoki as he'd be cheaper with probably similar production. Plus Aoki has been a lot more consistent, you can expect an average around .285-.288, OBP .349-.355 and OPS in the .710-.787 range along with 17-30 stolen bases. I like him better all things considered.
Aoki is also a solid option for one of the corner spots, probably better than Markakis when factoring in the expected contracts of both players.
Heyward
12-02-2014, 05:45 PM
Wouldnt hate Markakis, baseball economics is nuts right now so the money is what it is.
Doubt we get him but we could do worse.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 05:47 PM
Markakis is about the same age Uggla was when we gave him his contract. I would have thought there would be some institutional memory (even with the turnover) regarding multi-year deals for 30something players.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 05:57 PM
Markakis is about the same age Uggla was when we gave him his contract. I would have thought there would be some institutional memory (even with the turnover) regarding multi-year deals for 30something players.
Good point, plus there has been signs of decline from him overall the last few years (including only a .685 OPS playing in Baltimore in 2013).
That said, Aoki makes more sense in that you can likely sign him on both a shorter deal (two years instead of four-to-five years) and cheaper per season rate. Plus we could use a player with such a consistent track record as Aoki has over the last three years.
PS: Based on reported asking price and expected salary per season, Aoki should cost us at least 4 million less a year than Markakis.
yeezus
12-02-2014, 06:04 PM
I'm shocked at the amount of people that want Markakis at over $12 mil a year.
Actually...no I'm not.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 06:06 PM
I'm shocked at the amount of people that want Markakis at over $12 mil a year.
Actually...no I'm not.
It reminds me of that saying about the definition of insanity. :)
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 06:13 PM
I think there is more to be said for still productive older players who would take a 1 or 2 year deal over a player in their early 30s looking for more years. I have in mind someone like Tori Hunter. If Alex Rios were willing to take 1 year I'd be interested.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 06:17 PM
I think there is more to be said for still productive older players who would take a 1 or 2 year deal over a player in their early 30s looking for more years. I have in mind someone like Tori Hunter. If Alex Rios were willing to take 1 year I'd be interested.
I agree, I just don't see that happening with Rios. Plus Hunter seems more interested in signing with an AL contender. But I like both Hunter and Aoki at the right price on a 1-2 year deal. I'd even be okay with a team option for a third year on Aoki depending on the AAV.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 06:25 PM
There are also some bad contract corner outfielders or guys caught in crowded outfield situations. I'd talk to teams like the Dodgers, Red Sox, Diamondbacks and Rangers about a possible bad contract exchange or picking up a veteran guy with one or two years on his contract on the cheap. Those are better alternatives than Markakis on four years.
http://cdn.na16.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/colby-rasmus-2013-mlb-photo-day.jpg
He couldn't look dumpier if that were an actual mugshot (instead of just meeting all the aesthetic criteria).
Sniffing around Markakis, eh?
If you smell baklava, sign him.
G. Laird out.
http://media.tumblr.com/d03380eac9cce0cfef0df6a5bffcfaba/tumblr_inline_mp4vk7SAai1s1bl53.gif
Hunter has also made it clear that he wants to play for a 'legitimate' contender 2015, a position that the Braves don't figure to be in.
Ryan Ludwick/Josh Willingham are two other possibilities on 1/2 year pacts. The Braves have had interest in both in the past.
bravesfanforlife88
12-02-2014, 06:31 PM
Hunter has also made it clear that he wants to play for a 'legitimate' contender 2015, a position that the Braves don't figure to be in.
Ryan Ludwick/Josh Willingham are two other possibilities on 1/2 year pacts. The Braves have had interest in both in the past.
Didn't willingham retire?
yeezus
12-02-2014, 06:31 PM
Ryan Ludwick/Josh Willingham are two other possibilities on 1/2 year pacts. The Braves have had interest in both in the past.
Ugh, those names are heart-breaking.
Didn't willingham retire?
Wow, didn't realize that. Scratch him off the list (of 2).
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 06:32 PM
Hunter has also made it clear that he wants to play for a 'legitimate' contender 2015, a position that the Braves don't figure to be in.
Ryan Ludwick/Josh Willingham are two other possibilities on 1/2 year pacts. The Braves have had interest in both in the past.
Willingham retired. I think signing him would be a mistake.
MadduxFanII
12-02-2014, 06:44 PM
Willingham retired. I think signing him would be a mistake.
And this guy's dead!
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 06:47 PM
And this guy's dead!
That was a great line in Major League. :)
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 06:49 PM
Hunter has also made it clear that he wants to play for a 'legitimate' contender 2015, a position that the Braves don't figure to be in.
Yea, I noted pretty much the same in my response. But a good echo never hurt anyone. :)
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 06:52 PM
Kyle Blanks is now a free agent, I wouldn't mind signing him. He could be a decent platoon player for left field and help on the bench. Plus he can back-up first too if Fredi ever gives Freeman another off day again, lol.
rico43
12-02-2014, 07:04 PM
Signing Markakis would make Hart seem much more astute, no?
yeezus
12-02-2014, 07:08 PM
Signing Markakis would make Hart seem much more astute, no?
Not necessarily.
bravebonebook
12-02-2014, 07:13 PM
Signing Markakis would make Hart seem much more astute, no?
Not on this board...
50PoundHead
12-02-2014, 07:27 PM
And this guy's dead!
Having watched Willingham a little bit over the past few seasons, I think there are dead people with more range in the outfield than Willingham.
PS--When I read the title, I somehow got this image in my mind:
https://mypetnannyblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/dog_sniffing_hydrant.gif
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 07:31 PM
Having watched Willingham a little bit over the past few seasons, I think there are dead people with more range in the outfield than Willingham.
Hahaha, I knew you might say something like that 50. You crack me up whenever you talk about how bad defensively Willingham, and previously Doumit, were for the Twins. But that isn't to say I disagree. It is just you cover the subject in a humorous way. :)
Enscheff
12-02-2014, 07:31 PM
The Braves aren't going to sign anyone for the OF until Gattis and/or JUp are dealt. Part of Hart's leverage is in the line "we don't have to trade either player", and that goes away once another OFer is acquired.
CrimsonCowboy
12-02-2014, 07:46 PM
Just saw a tweet from an Orioles writer that said Markakis had dinner with a Braves contingent that included Fredi Gonzalez. That from Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun.
emk418
12-02-2014, 07:47 PM
Just saw a tweet from an Orioles writer that said Markakis had dinner with a Braves contingent that included Fredi Gonzalez. That from Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun.
Saw that too. Get it done.
Dan Connolly
@danconnollysun
With Fredi Gonzalez coming to Baltimore to meet Markakis, you have to think Braves are biggest suitor for Markakis right now -- besides Os.
emk418
12-02-2014, 08:03 PM
Dan Connolly
@danconnollysun
With Fredi Gonzalez coming to Baltimore to meet Markakis, you have to think Braves are biggest suitor for Markakis right now -- besides Os.
As I said before...depending on the money Markakis gets, turning Heyward into Markakis, Shelby, Jenkins is a huge win for this team. But I don't have much faith we'll actually sign him.
http://m.braves.mlb.com/news/article/103001830/braves-intrigued-by-potential-fit-with-free-agent-outfielder-nick-markakis
Bowman: "The Braves seem to have definite interest in Markakis, who won his second American League Gold Glove Award in 2014."
buck75
12-02-2014, 08:19 PM
Didn't willingham retire?
Yes
emk418
12-02-2014, 08:19 PM
http://m.braves.mlb.com/news/article/103001830/braves-intrigued-by-potential-fit-with-free-agent-outfielder-nick-markakis
Bowman: "The Braves seem to have definite interest in Markakis, who won his second American League Gold Glove Award in 2014."
I have no confidence at all in the Braves ever closing a deal with a FA.
COGPK
12-02-2014, 08:27 PM
I like Markakis. Low strikeout guy and can be a leader here.
yeezus
12-02-2014, 08:36 PM
I like Markakis. Low strikeout guy and can be a leader here.
Can be a leader based on what?
If we give him more than $8-9 mil a year, it's a poor move that will be worse in two years. There's no upside there.
He wanted more than $12.5 from the Os.
COGPK
12-02-2014, 08:48 PM
The negative crap gets old. It's not a debate, just an opinion. I seriously don't know why I come here.
The Chosen One
12-02-2014, 08:49 PM
The negative crap gets old. It's not a debate, just an opinion. I seriously don't know why I come here.
Please don't leave. :Sad:
blueagleace1
12-02-2014, 08:51 PM
I would love to get one of Boston's extra outfielders -mainly Allen Craig- but I don't think we match up too well with them in a trade since they are looking for starting pitching.
UNLESS we get a third team involved who would have extra pitching and also have a need for Upton or Gattis. Obviously we would want some of Boston's prospects in return as well and some that could interest us might include:
1. Henry Owens- LHP
2. Garin Cecchini- 3B
3. Mauel Margot- OF
4. Anthony Ranaudo- RHP
5. Matt Barnes- RHP
6. Eduardo Rodriguez- LHP
7. Will Middlebrooks- 3B
I don't see Markakis signing for cheaper than $7.8MM.
I think the point is he would be around longer for a lot cheaper. Decent to good average, a little pop, and good defense. If you can get him for 4/45 or less, he'd be a pretty good sign, imo.
Plus, we got Miller and Jenkins out of the deal. No way we could sign a pitcher of Miller's quality for 7-8 million per yr.
Can be a leader based on what?
If we give him more than $8-9 mil a year, it's a poor move that will be worse in two years. There's no upside there.
He wanted more than $12.5 from the Os.
How is it a poor move? He isn't exactly old at 30 yrs old.
While I'm still holding out hope for a more dynamic young outfielder via the trade market, Markakis is a decent option as long as he's valued appropriately. His defensive metrics are not as bad as I had originally thought, and he hits LHP reasonably well for a LHH. Would provide a veteran presence that we know is a priority for the new braintrust. Problem is, I think it would take something like 4 for $40M (and likely more) to get him and that is probably a bit too much for a player on the decline.
Heyward
12-02-2014, 09:10 PM
David O'Brien @DOBrienAJC
#Braves asst. GM John Coppolella and manager Fredi Gonzalez flew up to Baltimore on Monday to have dinner with free agent OF Nick Markakis.
FTR, im not saying i would sign him but if not Markakis, then who?
I'm not saying i'd sign him especially for what he may cost but who would you get.
Just tank the next 2 years and see who they can get in 2017 then?
Heyward
12-02-2014, 09:12 PM
How is it a poor move? He isn't exactly old at 30 yrs old.
He just turned 31.
I thought he was 33 or 34, makes me not hate it as much if they signed him.
I dont have a problem with it, need some bats.
thewupk
12-02-2014, 09:34 PM
How is it a poor move? He isn't exactly old at 30 yrs old.
He's also averaged 1.7 WAR the last 6 years. He's been an average player in his prime. Even if he performs the same way the next 4 years he isn't worth 12-13 million a year.
thewupk
12-02-2014, 09:35 PM
David O'Brien @DOBrienAJC
#Braves asst. GM John Coppolella and manager Fredi Gonzalez flew up to Baltimore on Monday to have dinner with free agent OF Nick Markakis.
FTR, im not saying i would sign him but if not Markakis, then who?
I'm not saying i'd sign him especially for what he may cost but who would you get.
Just tank the next 2 years and see who they can get in 2017 then?
Sure. Spending money just to spend it is never a wise move. If you are going to spend money then do what the Cubs have done and sign guys to 1 year deals and move them at the trade deadline.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 09:35 PM
I'm pretty indifferent between Markakis, Alex Rios, Aoki and before he signed with the Twins Torii Hunter. I think they all are likely to be 1-2 WAR players in 2015. To me the best option of the four is the one willing to settle for the shortest deal. Hunter or Rios on a one-year deal or Aoki on a two-year deal is far better from a risk-return perspective than Markakis on a four-year deal. So much so I'd be willing to pay a higher AAV to keep the years down.
We could also pick up someone like Victorino or Cody Ross for a relatively small price on the trade market. Those two guys would be in the last year of their contracts.
yeezus
12-02-2014, 09:36 PM
How is it a poor move? He isn't exactly old at 30 yrs old.
Because he just isn't that good.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 09:38 PM
Uggla started his four-year deal with us during his age 32 season. If we signed Markakis he would be starting what I presume will be a four-year deal in his age 31 season. We really need to absorb the lesson about aging curves for players as they go from 30 to 35.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 09:38 PM
He's also averaged 1.7 WAR the last 6 years. He's been an average player in his prime. Even if he performs the same way the next 4 years he isn't worth 12-13 million a year.
Exactly. Plus Aoki is available at least 4 million less (maybe even 5-7 million less) for a short term deal. Probably can sign him at no more than 6-8 million per over two years. I'd be okay with that type of deal considering how consistent Aoki has been over the last three years.
yeezus
12-02-2014, 09:39 PM
The negative crap gets old. It's not a debate, just an opinion. I seriously don't know why I come here.
So when asked to support this opinion, you shut down?
yeezus
12-02-2014, 09:40 PM
I'm way more on board with Aoki at his likely price than Markakis at his.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 09:40 PM
Uggla started his four-year deal with us during his age 32 season. If we signed Markakis he would be starting what I presume will be a four-year deal in his age 31 season. We really need to absorb the lesson about aging curves for players as they go from 30 to 35.
It could be a five year deal for Markakis, though maybe he takes 4 but if so it seems that it would cost us 12-13 million per season (and probably no less AAV on either a four or five year deal).
Heyward
12-02-2014, 09:42 PM
Sure. Spending money just to spend it is never a wise move. If you are going to spend money then do what the Cubs have done and sign guys to 1 year deals and move them at the trade deadline.
Suggestions?
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 09:44 PM
Suggestions?
Alex Rios would probably settle for a one-year deal.
Guys like Victorino and Cody Ross are in the last years of their contracts and could probably be picked up for a low price in the trade market. Cespedes would probably cost a bit more but has more upside.
There are plenty of options out there where we would not have to take the risk of a 4 year contract for a 30something player.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 09:49 PM
Alex Rios would probably settle for a one-year deal.
What makes you think so? If so, I wouldn't take issue with signing him unless the money is crazy high.
thewupk
12-02-2014, 09:52 PM
Suggestions?
Well if we are rebuilding then why not internal options? If you must sign somebody then find someone for a two year deal. There should be several 1-2 WAR players that could had for that. Going long term for an average player just to fill a spot when you are rebuilding doesn't make a lot of sense.
Heyward
12-02-2014, 09:52 PM
Alex Rios would probably settle for a one-year deal.
Guys like Victorino and Cody Ross are in the last years of their contracts and could probably be picked up for a low price in the trade market. Cespedes would probably cost a bit more but has more upside.
There are plenty of options out there where we would not have to take the risk of a 4 year contract for a 30something player.
Fair post.
What would it cost in a trade though for Ross or Vic?
I dont think Rios would settle for a 1-yr deal though.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 09:52 PM
What makes you think so? If so, I wouldn't take issue with signing him unless the money is crazy high.
Coming off a poor year. I'm assuming he thinks he can rebuild value.
Heyward
12-02-2014, 09:54 PM
Well if we are rebuilding then why not internal options? If you must sign somebody then find someone for a two year deal. There should be several 1-2 WAR players that could had for that. Going long term for an average player just to fill a spot when you are rebuilding doesn't make a lot of sense.
I'd say we're re-tooling more than rebuilding.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 09:54 PM
Well if we are rebuilding then why not internal options? If you must sign somebody then find someone for a two year deal. There should be several 1-2 WAR players that could had for that. Going long term for an average player just to fill a spot when you are rebuilding doesn't make a lot of sense.
Exactly my thoughts too. I don't see why we shouldn't give Joey T, Hunter, among others a shot at winning one of the outfield spots in a rebuild season. I could see us finding a decent platoon doing that too, if not better. Further, a Kyle Blanks cheap signing as a right handed part of a platoon off the bench for left field is an idea I like too.
nsacpi
12-02-2014, 09:55 PM
Fair post.
What would it cost in a trade though for Ross or Vic?
A couple things on those two. They finished last year injured and Victorino had back surgery. So we would have to do some due diligence. At the same time, the Diamondbacks and Red Sox have very crowded outfield situations. My guess is the combination of their having poor 2014/injury risk/crowded outfields will make their prices fairly low. My guess is we could get them for a Gus Schlosser or two.
Braves1976
12-02-2014, 09:58 PM
Coming off a poor year. I'm assuming he thinks he can rebuild value.
OK, I thought I read that he wanted a multi-year deal somewhere but I may be mistaken. He is certainly coming off a poor year so that would make sense for him to consider regardless.
blueagleace1
12-02-2014, 10:04 PM
OK, I thought I read that he wanted a multi-year deal somewhere but I may be mistaken. He is certainly coming off a poor year so that would make sense for him to consider regardless.
I got shredded apart a while back for mentioning Rios as a possibility and I really wouldn't consider his season (last year) as "poor". Now clearly it wasn't excellent or even good, but I would say that it was average.
Def not saying you were the one doing the shredding btw
yeezus
12-02-2014, 10:05 PM
Exactly my thoughts too. I don't see why we shouldn't give Joey T, Hunter, among others a shot at winning one of the outfield spots in a rebuild season. I could see us finding a decent platoon doing that too, if not better. Further, a Kyle Blanks cheap signing as a right handed part of a platoon off the bench for left field is an idea I like too.
It's highly likely none of those guys are every day OFers.
CrimsonCowboy
12-02-2014, 11:13 PM
http://atlantabraves.blog.ajc.com/2014/12/02/free-agent-markakis-could-be-good-fit-for-braves/?ecmp=ajc_social_twitter_2014_braves_sfp
thewupk
12-02-2014, 11:22 PM
http://atlantabraves.blog.ajc.com/2014/12/02/free-agent-markakis-could-be-good-fit-for-braves/?ecmp=ajc_social_twitter_2014_braves_sfp
not shocking
MadduxFanII
12-02-2014, 11:40 PM
The wisdom of this will pretty much come down to the contract terms. A four-year contract at between $11 and $13 million a year for Markakis could look awfully Bossman-esque pretty soon, which is ironic since BJ is pretty much the paramount reason Hart has his job right now.
Heyward
12-02-2014, 11:40 PM
Honestly he would be a good fit but the Giants/Jays offer him a better shot to win than the Braves.
Especially since JUp would likely be dealt if they signed Markakis.
blueagleace1
12-03-2014, 12:22 AM
Honestly he would be a good fit but the Giants/Jays offer him a better shot to win than the Braves.
Especially since JUp would likely be dealt if they signed Markakis.
Good point! Although he too (just like Lester) could relish the possibility of playing near his hometown. Here is something else to somewhat consider... Besides Upton and Heyward there won't be a lot to choose from next year's free agent OF class, as far as upper-tier type players are concerned (Jose Bautista and Alex Gordon have options that will almost certainly be exercised). Some other 2016 OF free agents that MIGHT have some appeal would include:
1. Dexter Fowler
2. Yoenis Cespedes
3. Alejandro De Aza
4. Austin Jackson
5. Drew Stubbs
6. Will Venable
So with the aforementioned names, the Braves could decided A.) to sign guys to 1-year deals this offseason in preparation of next year's free agent class or B.) come to the conclusion that Markakis will provide more value than these guys and sign him knowing that next year won't have the talent they're seeking.
Me personally, I would like for them to sign Alex Rios this winter to a 1-year deal (with a mutual option for 2016) to play RF with Gattis in LF then next year go after Fowler (who too is a GA native) to play either OF spot and if Gattis shows he just can't handle the OF trade him to an AL club for another corner OF.
Just an opinion.
He's also averaged 1.7 WAR the last 6 years. He's been an average player in his prime. Even if he performs the same way the next 4 years he isn't worth 12-13 million a year.
1st of all, WAR isn't the king of stats. Regardless, your statement is very misleading as his one outlier season severely brings down his average WAR. He's consistently been a 2.0-2.5 WAR player over that span, aside from 2013.
Because he just isn't that good.
Name another OF in this yr's FA that is available who has a career OBP .350 and will make less than 12 million?
Alex Rios would probably settle for a one-year deal.
Guys like Victorino and Cody Ross are in the last years of their contracts and could probably be picked up for a low price in the trade market. Cespedes would probably cost a bit more but has more upside.
There are plenty of options out there where we would not have to take the risk of a 4 year contract for a 30something player.
So your plan is to drain our farm system even more when we are trying to rebuild it?
Alex Rios is a much worse option than Markakis. And its very doubtful he'll take a 1 yr deal unless the market bottoms out, a la Santana circa 2014.
Well if we are rebuilding then why not internal options? If you must sign somebody then find someone for a two year deal. There should be several 1-2 WAR players that could had for that. Going long term for an average player just to fill a spot when you are rebuilding doesn't make a lot of sense.
You can rebuild and still use the money allotted for your payroll. The Braves were going to have a 110ish million payroll anyways. We should just sit on that extra 25-30 million and let Liberty pocket it?
Dalyn
12-03-2014, 01:48 AM
Name another OF in this yr's FA that is available who has a career OBP .350 and will make less than 12 million?
Ichiro and Willingham.
Dalyn
12-03-2014, 01:51 AM
Actually I just read a report where Willingham is retiring. That's surprising. Missed that before.
Ichiro and Willingham.
Fair point on Ichiro, but he is 41, and hasn't had close to a .350 OBP since 2010. Willingham is retired.
The Chosen One
12-03-2014, 04:13 AM
It lends itself greatly to the theory of the Braves desire to move Heyward having little to do with finance.
You don't call out and trash someone as prominently connected to the Braves organization on twitter as Heyward did and expect to keep your job.
GovClintonTyree
12-03-2014, 08:51 AM
You don't call out and trash someone as prominently connected to the Braves organization on twitter as Heyward did and expect to keep your job.
What?
50PoundHead
12-03-2014, 08:55 AM
I think Markakis is a decent player, but if we sign him to a 3- or 4-year deal, we're crazy. MFII is right. The last two years of the contract may be Melvinesque.
I don't know if the Braves were in on Torii Hunter, but at $10.5 MM, I thought he would have been a decent one-year option.
Another Markakis alternative would be Andy Dirks, who was non-tendered by TOR. He is a year younger, but definitely has more injury risk than Markakis. Like Markakis, he is a LHH with a minimal platoon split and averagish RF defense. Below are 2015 Steamer projections for each. Markakis is a better and more durable player, but Dirks can surely be had on a small one-year deal. Don't get me wrong . . . I'd like to aim higher than Dirks. Just a quick case study on why we should be careful not to overpay in $ or years with Markakis.
Markakis: 268 / 334 / 381
Dirks: 259 / 321 / 394
thewupk
12-03-2014, 09:29 AM
You can rebuild and still use the money allotted for your payroll. The Braves were going to have a 110ish million payroll anyways. We should just sit on that extra 25-30 million and let Liberty pocket it?
Sure. But why use it to lock up an average player that's over 30 for 4 years? That's not the move that we need to make if 2017 is 'the year'. If you can get someone that's going to be apart of the core and is young then do it. But we don't need another BJ on the roster when the new stadium is open.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 09:37 AM
1st of all, WAR isn't the king of stats. Regardless, your statement is very misleading as his one outlier season severely brings down his average WAR. He's consistently been a 2.0-2.5 WAR player over that span, aside from 2013.
Actually hes also had years in the high 1's in WAR as well. So no he hasnt been 2.0 to 2.5 in that span. And if 2013 is an outlier then 2014 should be as well since it was his best season in years. And I'm not convincned his average defense that he showed in 2014 is for real either as he's been well below average the previous 5 seasons. I suspect he will once again be a poor defender in 2015. He's an average player any way you look at it. And signing him for 4 seasons is a mistake given what the Braves are trying to do.
nsacpi
12-03-2014, 09:47 AM
I hope Hart weighs carefully the effects of any monetary commitment to Markakis (or any other outfielder) on our ability to hold on to Justin. Unless he has unrealistic demands (significantly north of $20M per year) I'd prioritize extenting Justin and be willing to scrimp a bit on whichever outfielder we bring in.
50PoundHead
12-03-2014, 09:56 AM
I hope Hart weighs carefully the effects of any monetary commitment to Markakis (or any other outfielder) on our ability to hold on to Justin. Unless he has unrealistic demands (significantly north of $20M per year) I'd prioritize extenting Justin and be willing to scrimp a bit on whichever outfielder we bring in.
I would agree. You can mix and match with a couple of C+ guys.
I know I harp on it a lot (the rest of my stringed instruments are in the shop so I only have a harp), but the pickle we find ourselves in is almost directly related to the paucity of talent in the upper levels of our farm system, which appears to be populated with 4th/5th OFs.
DirkPiggler
12-03-2014, 09:59 AM
You can rebuild and still use the money allotted for your payroll. The Braves were going to have a 110ish million payroll anyways. We should just sit on that extra 25-30 million and let Liberty pocket it?
If the plan is to punt 2015 and possibly 2016 with an eye towards competing in 2017, maybe the best move would be to escrow enough of this year's payroll to cover Bad Upton's 2016 or 2017 salary. This of course assumes that we can't find a sucker to take him before the season starts. That way if/when he sucks this year we can write him a check for both 2016 and 2017 at the end of the year and tell him to take a hike. Or we can send that money along with BJ to a new team without having to dip into payroll for the first year in the new park.
I'd rather do something like this as opposed to spending the money on mediocre to bad players just for the sake of pretending to compete.
50PoundHead
12-03-2014, 10:11 AM
If the plan is to punt 2015 and possibly 2016 with an eye towards competing in 2017, maybe the best move would be to escrow enough of this year's payroll to cover Bad Upton's 2016 or 2017 salary. This of course assumes that we can't find a sucker to take him before the season starts. That way if/when he sucks this year we can write him a check for both 2016 and 2017 at the end of the year and tell him to take a hike. Or we can send that money along with BJ to a new team without having to dip into payroll for the first year in the new park.
I'd rather do something like this as opposed to spending the money on mediocre to bad players just for the sake of pretending to compete.
Good points Dirk. You can only spend a dollar once and every dollar we don't spend on players on the field could be used as seasoning to make the swallowing of Melvin's horrid contract somewhat more palatable.
I hate to bring up the local nine up here in Minnesota (whom I generally, if not despise, readily deride), but signing Markakis would be a "Twins Move." Looks good to the average fan and gives the impression that the front office is serious about competing. The Twins hung onto Molitor an extra year because Tom Kelly liked watching him hit (and the Twins lost 92 with a bunch of guys that Kelly loved because they played the "right way"). As I said earlier, Markakis is a decent player and might be an option for the Braves if he were willing to be a two-year place holder. Length of contract is almost everything here and if the current front office doesn't understand the problems created when that concept was abandoned by the previous front office, we're in for a long performance trough.
nsacpi
12-03-2014, 10:14 AM
Interesting Markakis article. Pay particular attention to the distance on batted ball data. Even if we don't sign him, I think it reflects poorly on our front office that we are kicking the tires on this guy.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-are-we-missing-about-nick-markakis/
Julio3000
12-03-2014, 11:19 AM
Good points Dirk. You can only spend a dollar once and every dollar we don't spend on players on the field could be used as seasoning to make the swallowing of Melvin's horrid contract somewhat more palatable.
I hate to bring up the local nine up here in Minnesota (whom I generally, if not despise, readily deride), but signing Markakis would be a "Twins Move." Looks good to the average fan and gives the impression that the front office is serious about competing. The Twins hung onto Molitor an extra year because Tom Kelly liked watching him hit (and the Twins lost 92 with a bunch of guys that Kelly loved because they played the "right way"). As I said earlier, Markakis is a decent player and might be an option for the Braves if he were willing to be a two-year place holder. Length of contract is almost everything here and if the current front office doesn't understand the problems created when that concept was abandoned by the previous front office, we're in for a long performance trough.
Yep, this. A long-term deal at market prices for this guy would have us tearing out our hair in a year or two, if not sooner.
Enscheff
12-03-2014, 11:27 AM
Interesting Markakis article. Pay particular attention to the distance on batted ball data. Even if we don't sign him, I think it reflects poorly on our front office that we are kicking the tires on this guy.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-are-we-missing-about-nick-markakis/
Quite simply, it's the valuation of defense...the "range" portion of it specifically. As evidenced by the "Heyward ordeal", many teams just don't value elite defense, range especially, unless it is up the middle. I am not entirely convinced stats like DRS and UZR paint a good enough picture to make claims like "Heyward saved XX runs this year, and was therefore worth YY wins, which translates to ZZ dollars", and I'm quite certain many teams feel the same way about those stats.
Until the real radar data tracking the movement of all players and batted balls is available, I don't think the value of defense can be accurately pinned down. Teams aren't likely to make multi-million dollar decisions based on whether some random guy categorized a batted ball as a line drive or a flyball that was in or out of some players "zone", especially not when the player's starting position is taken into account.
And don't even get me started on the false assumption that defense adds linearly in reality as you add more and more "runs saved" to your roster. At some point there stops being runs to save, or at least diminishing returns.
Markakis is seen as a solid OBP guy with no platoon split that can play an average RF. In a time of terrible offenses, that consistency is going to hold value. Who's right? Who knows.
I would much rather see the Braves scoop up Aoki for half the price, and I've been advocating him all offseason.
The Chosen One
12-03-2014, 11:33 AM
What?
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/m8h7e2
I knew that once Wren was canned and Roy Clark was brought back that the writing was all over the wall.
Tapate50
12-03-2014, 11:42 AM
I find the qualifications to be a candidate to man the outfield for the Atlanta Braves on this board to be a bit unrealistic.
Candidate must have all of the following:
Under 29 years of age
Upward performance curve
Above Average Defense
Above Average Health
High OBP
Average to above power potential
Want less than 13 million a year on a short term deal
Did I miss anything?
This player is out of our price range, so we are going to have to cave on our demands a bit folks.
Millwood1Hitter
12-03-2014, 11:50 AM
I find the qualifications to be a candidate to man the outfield for the Atlanta Braves on this board to be a bit unrealistic.
Candidate must have all of the following:
Under 29 years of age
Upward performance curve
Above Average Defense
Above Average Health
High OBP
Average to above power potential
Want less than 13 million a year on a short term deal
Did I miss anything?
This player is out of our price range, so we are going to have to cave on our demands a bit folks.
Where's Hard Hittin Mark Whitten when you need him?
50PoundHead
12-03-2014, 11:54 AM
Where's Hard Hittin Mark Whitten when you need him?
I say we sign Raul Mondesi Sr. and acquire Raul Mondesi Jr. from the Royals. Father/son combo platter.
Julio3000
12-03-2014, 12:03 PM
Raul the Elder is busy holding elected office. Instead maybe we should get both of his sons in pro ball: Raul A. and Raul, Jr.
Julio3000
12-03-2014, 12:04 PM
Might as well grab EY Jr. and L'il' DeLino while we're at it.
Interesting Markakis article. Pay particular attention to the distance on batted ball data. Even if we don't sign him, I think it reflects poorly on our front office that we are kicking the tires on this guy.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-are-we-missing-about-nick-markakis/
Great read, thanks for posting. I do like Aoki and hope the Braves are considering him. I think the Steamer / 600 table undervalues some of Markakis' differentiating skills when compared to Rasmus though. Markakis' durability and minimal platoon split when compared to Rasmus are somewhat washed away when there is an assumption that everyone gets 600 PAs or ABs. Rasmus is probably best used as a platoon player. Also, my memory is hazy on this, but I believe Rasmus wore out his welcome in St Louis with the staff and veteran players. Markakis seems to be well-regarded as a clubhouse guy.
Also, my memory is hazy on this, but I believe Rasmus wore out his welcome in St Louis with the staff and veteran players. Markakis seems to be well-regarded as a clubhouse guy.
You are correct (on both accounts).
Some of Rasmus' issues, including pure LaRussa hatred, are mentioned in this semi-recent article from the (Toronto) National Post that interviews Colby's (super aggressive, punch-out-little-league-umpire type persona) father... it's pretty fascinating:
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/08/05/toronto-blue-jays-colby-rasmus-has-never-been-the-same-since-st-louis-cardinals-put-him-in-a-cookie-cutter-his-father-says/
From the same piece, an interesting bit about Ramus' relationship with Kevin Seitzer:
On Colby’s relationship with his hitting coaches in Toronto:
“It’s tough this year with a new hitting guy. He was really comfortable with Chad [Mottola] last year, and Chad really did a lot of the things that he felt made him successful. And then this year, a new guy – who’s a great guy, by the way, Kevin Seitzer – he just kind of came in and tried to do things differently. [Colby] was really comfortable with the other way. It’s just a different year, and he’s kind of failed to make the adjustments that he needed to make.
“He really likes Kevin. I think he has tried this entire year to do what Kevin wanted him to do. I think his biggest problem has always been this: I really helped him a lot his first two years [in St. Louis]. I would probably go throw BP to him every two weeks, probably, his first two years, and then I stopped. After all that stuff with Tony [La Russa] and everything, I said hey, the heck with it. You know what, if he can’t hit on his own with them guys, I don’t want to do it any more. But last year, Chad actually called me … wanted me to come up and just go through some of the stuff that Colby and I had done to help him hit. And I went a couple days and talked to Chad, and Chad started doing those things with Colby last year, and man, Colby had a great year.”
Millwood1Hitter
12-03-2014, 12:42 PM
Interesting Markakis article. Pay particular attention to the distance on batted ball data. Even if we don't sign him, I think it reflects poorly on our front office that we are kicking the tires on this guy.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-are-we-missing-about-nick-markakis/
Well, if your going off of the past history of what type of players that our current FO admires and seeks to acquire, especially JS, then it should not be that big of a surprise. Production is valued off course, but so is leadership and the dyanamic that someone may bring to the clubhouse, and that is weighed heavily.
I'm not the biggest JS supporter in the world, and certainly not going to stick up for every move that this current FO makes or attempts to make, but at least they seem to have a plan and vision, and let's give them the benefit of the doubt and see what the final product looks like, not just now, but also in the near future. I believe we are on the right path, and might take a small step backward at the MLB on field level, but there is no doubt in my opinion that we are moving forward in the right direction trying to focus on replenishing a bare minor league system and going back to the fundamentals with scouting, securing, and developing talent. It's not always gonna work out exactly the way one wants to anticipate, but Hart and Co. have put together a staff of a multitude of different strengths and good baseball people.
And back on topic, I wonder where a lot of these stat guys would have had to say back in 1991 when JS went out and got a Pendleton, Bream, Belliard to fill needs in the short term and provide leadership and guidance to a young talented clubhouse that had yet to find their way filled with the likes of Justice, Gant, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery,etc. I mean all those guys were done(TP, Sid, Raffy), right? Same can be said a year earlier acquiring Liebrandt to mentor all the young pitchers on the staff.
Gary82
12-03-2014, 12:49 PM
And back on topic, I wonder where a lot of these stat guys would have had to say back in 1991 when JS went out and got a Pendleton, Bream, Belliard to fill needs in the short term and provide leadership and guidance to a young talented clubhouse that had yet to find their way filled with the likes of Justice, Gant, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery,etc. I mean all those guys were done(TP, Sid, Raffy), right? Same can be said a year earlier acquiring Liebrandt to mentor all the young pitchers on the staff.
He got lucky with TP. The offensive numbers came out of nowhere. His defense was the only thing he had going for him. Plus, it's easy to be a leader and have people listen to you when you're putting up MVP type numbers.
Bream wasn't any good, but judging by his motivational speaking post career, he probably was an asset in the clubhouse. (how that translates into wins, i don't know.)
edit: Charlie Leibrandt was a good signing. He was solid for us. (sans a certain at bat in the 1991 WS)
Enscheff
12-03-2014, 12:54 PM
Look, someone has to play RF, and the Braves are not just going to trade Gattis and JUp and completely punt 2015/2016 with an OF of Cedric Hunter/BJ/Terdo.
While I would prefer Aoki on a 2-3 year deal or Markakis on a 2-3 year deal, I don't think signing Markakis to a 4/40 deal would be the worst thing in the world. If they start to get into the 4/50 range I think there will be problems.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 12:59 PM
Aside from the fact TP had a career year in 91. You could see that 1990 was likely a fluke year. He had a career low 249 BABIP that year and he also provided great defense. Which was mainly what JS was trying to bring in. And Breame actually had a bad year in 91. He was worse defensively and offensively then the previous year. But again he was brought in for his defense. Not that you can really compare to today to then. Contracts weren't really an issue then. You didn't have average players asking for 12-13 million a year.
Gary82
12-03-2014, 01:02 PM
Aside from the fact TP had a career year in 91. You could see that 1990 was likely a fluke year. He had a career low 249 BABIP that year and he also provided great defense. Which was mainly what JS was trying to bring in. And Breame actually had a bad year in 91. He was worse defensively and offensively then the previous year. But again he was brought in for his defense. Not that you can really compare to today to then. Contracts weren't really an issue then. You didn't have average players asking for 12-13 million a year.
Yeah, 1990 was a down year for TP. (maybe he was injured?)
Actually hes also had years in the high 1's in WAR as well. So no he hasnt been 2.0 to 2.5 in that span. And if 2013 is an outlier then 2014 should be as well since it was his best season in years. And I'm not convincned his average defense that he showed in 2014 is for real either as he's been well below average the previous 5 seasons. I suspect he will once again be a poor defender in 2015. He's an average player any way you look at it. And signing him for 4 seasons is a mistake given what the Braves are trying to do.
2012 was pacing for well over 2 WAR. Only played 104 games due surgeries and breaking his thumb getting hit by a pitch. Likely the cause of his 2013 struggles as well.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 03:41 PM
2012 was pacing for well over 2 WAR. Only played 104 games due surgeries and breaking his thumb getting hit by a pitch. Likely the cause of his 2013 struggles as well.
injuries causing poor performance. seems like a weak excuse to me. he is what he is. but if you feel the team should sign average players to 12-13 million a year for 4 years then good for you.
Chico
12-03-2014, 04:00 PM
If we can get him for about $12M per, then I'm good with Markakis. He's a steady player that every lineup needs.
NinersSBChamps
12-03-2014, 04:17 PM
He isn't flashy and isn't elite on defense. He's good enough in right field though. A career .290 hitter and nearly .360
OBP. Would be just what this lineup could use.
yeezus
12-03-2014, 04:37 PM
Look, someone has to play RF, and the Braves are not just going to trade Gattis and JUp and completely punt 2015/2016 with an OF of Cedric Hunter/BJ/Terdo.
While I would prefer Aoki on a 2-3 year deal or Markakis on a 2-3 year deal, I don't think signing Markakis to a 4/40 deal would be the worst thing in the world. If they start to get into the 4/50 range I think there will be problems.
Didn't he turn down 4/50 from the Os?
clvclv
12-03-2014, 04:38 PM
Didn't he turn down 4/50 from the Os?
Baltimore backed away. Started hedging on the 4th year.
UNCBlue012
12-03-2014, 04:50 PM
Baltimore backed away. Started hedging on the 4th year.
Correct. If we could somehow get 3/30-35, I'd be down.
tvsportscaster
12-03-2014, 04:51 PM
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN · 23s23 seconds ago
The negotiations between the Braves and outfielder Nick Markakis have intensified. Hearing the deal could wind up in range of 4/$45m.
UNCBlue012
12-03-2014, 04:54 PM
The fourth year is what gets me. I'm not sure I'd want to go there... but, It's a move that needs to be made IF we are going to get rid of one of Gattis or JUP.
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN · 23s23 seconds ago
The negotiations between the Braves and outfielder Nick Markakis have intensified. Hearing the deal could wind up in range of 4/$45m.
I wonder if the Braves are going to simultaneously pull off another deal (Upton/Upton/Gattis) if this goes down.
The Chosen One
12-03-2014, 04:55 PM
Just wanted to chime in that a day later this thread title still gets me. Why o why Hawk.
Tapate50
12-03-2014, 05:02 PM
He isn't flashy and isn't elite on defense. He's good enough in right field though. A career .290 hitter and nearly .360
OBP. Would be just what this lineup could use.
360 is pretty legit. I didn't know that. Thanks.
cajunrevenge
12-03-2014, 05:02 PM
Twist - they are signing him to pitch .
UNCBlue012
12-03-2014, 05:11 PM
The amount of negativity on a chance of this signing happening on Twitter is incredible.
Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal
Source confirms that talks between #Braves and Markakis are serious.
injuries causing poor performance. seems like a weak excuse to me. he is what he is. but if you feel the team should sign average players to 12-13 million a year for 4 years then good for you.
He has been as consistent and as durable as they come, outside of 2012 (durability) and 2013 (consistent). I don't consider players with .350 OBP's and good defense to be "average players."
emk418
12-03-2014, 05:15 PM
I could live with 4/45M. I think he's a great fit for this team. Pretty much Heyward at $8M turned into Markakis, Miller, Jenkins for $12M. That's a clear win. He would bring much needed veteran leadership.
cajunrevenge
12-03-2014, 05:28 PM
1 year of Heywood and 100 or less innings over 2 years from Walden for 4 years of Miller, 6 of Jenkins and 4 of Markakis.
BRule
12-03-2014, 05:29 PM
4/45 for a 31 year old Markakis is an absolute joke. He was horrific in 2013 and in 2014 he lived off his great 1st and in the 2nd half he was a 250 hitter with a 700 OPS with horrible D.
Nelson Cruz gets 14 mil per and we are going to give Nick Markakis 11+ hahahahahahahaha
thethe
12-03-2014, 05:40 PM
1 year of Heywood and 100 or less innings over 2 years from Walden for 4 years of Miller, 6 of Jenkins and 4 of Markakis.
Think about all the future salary savings between Markakis and Heyward.
I really like this move if it happens as long as we aren't paying more than 12-14 per year.
Enscheff
12-03-2014, 05:49 PM
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN · 23s23 seconds ago
The negotiations between the Braves and outfielder Nick Markakis have intensified. Hearing the deal could wind up in range of 4/$45m.
4/45 is the absolute max the Braves should go, and even that is a bit of an overpay.
If this signing happens I would expect to see a JUp/Gattis deal almost immediately afterwards.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 05:50 PM
I wonder if the Braves are going to simultaneously pull off another deal (Upton/Upton/Gattis) if this goes down.
JUp would likely be gone if they can get Markakis, one would imagine.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 05:52 PM
He has been as consistent and as durable as they come, outside of 2012 (durability) and 2013 (consistent). I don't consider players with .350 OBP's and good defense to be "average players."
Would you if that player played in Coors? Camden Yards is a very good hitters park. You can't just look at a players raw numbers. Since 2008 he has aline of 286/350/415 - 764. Good for a 108 OPS+. So technically above average overall but pretty much average for a corner outfielder. And is defense is not good. He's -25 DRS since 2009.
CyYoung31
12-03-2014, 05:53 PM
We're going to be bad next year.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 05:53 PM
Think about all the future salary savings between Markakis and Heyward.
I really like this move if it happens as long as we aren't paying more than 12-14 per year.
14 per year for a 2 WAR player. Hey for another 14 million we can find another 2 WAR player. That's 28 million for 4 WAR. Too bad Jason would have signed for 25 million and provided us 5+ WAR.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 05:53 PM
LMAO so if not Markakis, then who.
We arent getting in bidding wars with the big markets.
Tank the next 2 years and sign someone in 2017?
4/45 is probably an overpay but yall act like Markakis is the worst player in the game.
thethe
12-03-2014, 05:54 PM
Would you if that player played in Coors? Camden Yards is a very good hitters park. You can't just look at a players raw numbers. Since 2008 he has aline of 286/350/415 - 764. Good for a 108 OPS+. So technically above average overall but pretty much average for a corner outfielder. And is defense is not good. He's -25 DRS since 2009.
Lets see how his defense is when he has pitchers who are better at hitting their spots.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 05:54 PM
We're going to be bad next year.
Depends what the lineup is.
The rotation looks pretty solid.
Bullpen should be alright.
Lineup obviously is a big concern but the offseason aint over.
I'm not saying we're winning the WS but i think we can compete for a WC spot depending how the rest of the offseason shapes up.
atl717
12-03-2014, 05:55 PM
Players like Markakis can be signed for dirt cheap is not good. He's got no pop in his bat anymore. He's not the same player earlier in his career.
And you all will hate his defense. He's soooooo slow, offers no range. RF is so easy to play in Baltimore due to the short fence. He offers no upside, and at his absolute best is an average player. He's nothing like Heyward, Heyward is 10x the player.
Why not trade for Saunders, who is younger, better, and offers more upside? Orioles fans are praying they don't give him big money.
CyYoung31
12-03-2014, 05:56 PM
Still can't believe we traded Heyward.
thethe
12-03-2014, 05:56 PM
14 per year for a 2 WAR player. Hey for another 14 million we can find another 2 WAR player. That's 28 million for 4 WAR. Too bad Jason would have signed for 25 million and provided us 5+ WAR.
WAR is starting to mean very little to me in light of current debates over how defense is evaluated. The Braves filled RF for a guy who might end up producing offensively the same numbesr as Heyward for the next 4 years at maybe 40% of the costs.
I will wait to see what the salary is before going crazy about this.
UNCBlue012
12-03-2014, 05:59 PM
Players like Markakis can be signed for dirt cheap is not good. He's got no pop in his bat anymore. He's not the same player earlier in his career.
And you all will hate his defense. He's soooooo slow, offers no range. RF is so easy to play in Baltimore due to the short fence. He offers no upside, and at his absolute best is an average player. He's nothing like Heyward, Heyward is 10x the player.
Why not trade for Saunders, who is younger, better, and offers more upside? Orioles fans are praying they don't give him big money.
Orioles fans are also really pissed. They love him in Baltimore and they understand how valuable he is to them. I had a friend tell me today that she'd be highly upset if he left because, and I quote, "he's been a sparkplug for this offense for a long time. He's a solid player and a better leader." Just saying. He's highly regarded.
BRule
12-03-2014, 05:59 PM
Lets see how his defense is when he has pitchers who are better at hitting their spots.
Baltimore and the Braves basically had the same pitching numbers last year, the O's had/have a very good roto and BP.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:00 PM
. The Braves filled RF for a guy who might end up producing offensively the same numbesr as Heyward for the next 4 years at maybe 40% of the costs.
.
Markakis is 31 and tanked in the 2nd half of last year and was AWFUL in 2013
BremanFan88
12-03-2014, 06:01 PM
Markakis for four years and anything over 8 mill a year is a complete and utter joke. How can anyone think this is a good idea? This is pathetic that we are going to suck this bad. How little do you understand about baseball to think Heyward and Markakis are comparable in anyway. Again, just pathetic.
BremanFan88
12-03-2014, 06:03 PM
Markakis is 31 and tanked in the 2nd half of last year and was AWFUL in 2013
No it's ok. Old Markakis is better than Heyward entering his prime. They're the same player. And we can save all that money to sign Justin..........
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:04 PM
Markakis is projected as a 1 WAR player next year......we are offering him 45 mil..........................:fredi:
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:05 PM
WAR is stupid.
Heyward gets most of his WAR because he's all-world on defense.
Markakis and Heyward are about the same offensively.
Defensively, obviously Heyward is better since he's all-world there.
But yall are acting like Markakis is terrible.
A career .360 OBP is pretty good.
thethe
12-03-2014, 06:06 PM
Markakis for four years and anything over 8 mill a year is a complete and utter joke. How can anyone think this is a good idea? This is pathetic that we are going to suck this bad. How little do you understand about baseball to think Heyward and Markakis are comparable in anyway. Again, just pathetic.
I don't think anyone has once sad overall as a player they are comparable. Offensively they are similar though and if Heyward continues to stagnate at that end then Markakis could provide the same production over the next 4 years.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:07 PM
Still can't believe we traded Heyward.
It was the right move, we arent giving him 200 million.
We could have waited for a better deal but better than getting a late draft pick and watch him walk for nothing.
thethe
12-03-2014, 06:07 PM
Baltimore and the Braves basically had the same pitching numbers last year, the O's had/have a very good roto and BP.
Orioles historically have had bad pitching. Lets just see how Markakis performs defensively in ATL if he does sign. Not going to be close to Heyward but he might not be a negative.
atl717
12-03-2014, 06:08 PM
Orioles fans are also really pissed. They love him in Baltimore and they understand how valuable he is to them. I had a friend tell me today that she'd be highly upset if he left because, and I quote, "he's been a sparkplug for this offense for a long time. He's a solid player and a better leader." Just saying. He's highly regarded.
Your friend is simply attached because he's been there forever and used to be good. Numbers don't lie, he's not good with the bat anymore. He's a Punch and Judy hitter. I've followed Orioles baseball for 15 years since I live there.
Saying he and Heyward are similar is comical. They might post similar numbers if Heyward has another poor offensive season. Markakis has been poor for awhile now.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:09 PM
Orioles historically have had bad pitching. Lets just see how Markakis performs defensively in ATL if he does sign. Not going to be close to Heyward but he might not be a negative.
Really blaming the O's pitching for Markakis being bad defensively his whole career outside of 1 year? Dude.......come on
Plus he played next to Adam Jones who was amazing defensively last year which SHOULD help him, it didn't.
thethe
12-03-2014, 06:11 PM
Really blaming the O's D on Markakis being bad defensively his whole career outside of 1 year? Dude.......come on
Plus he played next to Adam Jones who was amazing defensively last year which SHOULD help him, it didn't.
We will see my friend. Defense has way more variables then just the performance of the actual fielder.
UNCBlue012
12-03-2014, 06:14 PM
Dammit. Saunders to Toronto for Happ. We could of gotten him it that's all it takes.
atl717
12-03-2014, 06:15 PM
Dude, Markakis is slow as hell, that's why he's a poor defender. Decent arm strength, great accuracy but no range. He used to be athletic but has gotten so slow.
Guy spends the whole offseason hunting instead of working out.
thethe
12-03-2014, 06:16 PM
Dammit. Saunders to Toronto for Happ. We could of gotten him it that's all it takes.
Hmmm....wonder what the comp would have been to Happ. Not sure we have one.
Maybe Seattle is getting ready to trade some pitching for Upton!
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:16 PM
WAR is stupid.
Heyward gets most of his WAR because he's all-world on defense.
Markakis and Heyward are about the same offensively.
Defensively, obviously Heyward is better since he's all-world there.
But yall are acting like Markakis is terrible.
A career .360 OBP is pretty good.
WAR is stupid LOL
Anyways.......
Heyward hasn't even hit his prime, he's only going to get better. You're using Markakis when he was 26-27-28 and he was really good, so his career numbers are skewed. He's been awful the last 2 years and is only getting older. Again, he had a 680 OPS in 2013 and 700 in the second half of last year....he's a fine player for 2 years and 10-12 mil TOTAL not PER YEAR, anything over that is just dumb.
UNCBlue012
12-03-2014, 06:16 PM
And it's done. We signed him according to Jeff Passan.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:17 PM
Done deal per Jeff Passan - 4 years 44mil
LMAO
thethe
12-03-2014, 06:17 PM
Why should we assume Heyward is going to become a better hitter?
UNCBlue012
12-03-2014, 06:17 PM
Source: OF Nick Markakis agrees to four-year deal with Atlanta Braves. Dollars unclear, but sides discussed a deal in neighborhood of $44M.
atl717
12-03-2014, 06:17 PM
Saunders is a far better player and just got traded for crap.
thethe
12-03-2014, 06:18 PM
Done deal per Jeff Passan - 4 years 44mil
LMAO
Sweet, we replaced RF at less than 50% of what Heyward is going to cost plus got two high ceiling pitchers under control for a combined 10 years.
Now lets see if we can re-sign Upton and we are close to being a good team in 2015.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:18 PM
Why should we assume Heyward is going to become a better hitter?
Well, he is still young but his twitch in his swing is concerning, still stands way too far off the plate as well.
Maybe the Cards make him a better hitter though.
The Chosen One
12-03-2014, 06:18 PM
Now I'm curious as to just what exactly Hart was sniffing before he was sniffing around Markakis.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 06:19 PM
Lets see how his defense is when he has pitchers who are better at hitting their spots.
Because pitchers hitting their spots affects a players range.
emk418
12-03-2014, 06:19 PM
Source: OF Nick Markakis agrees to four-year deal with Atlanta Braves. Dollars unclear, but sides discussed a deal in neighborhood of $44M.
Again, I think Markakis is a great fit for this team. We desperately need veteran leadership and he's very well respected throughout baseball. I'm interested to see the way the rest of the offseason plays out before fully judging Hart. If we're rebuilding signing Markakis doesn't make much sense. But if we make a few more moves to upgrade our lineup and rotation then I like it.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:20 PM
WAR is stupid LOL
Anyways.......
Heyward hasn't even hit his prime, he's only going to get better. You're using Markakis when he was 26-27-28 and he was really good, so his career numbers are skewed. He's been awful the last 2 years and is only getting older. Again, he had a 680 OPS in 2013 and 700 in the second half of last year....he's a fine player for 2 years and 10-12 mil TOTAL not PER YEAR, anything over that is just dumb.
Have you seen some of the contracts being handed out?
2 years, 10-12 mil total, LOLZ.
Baseball economics are crazy right now, 10-11 mil per for Markakis is fine.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:20 PM
Why should we assume Heyward is going to become a better hitter?
He's been good to really good on O every year but 1.....it's not really a stretch with his talent. Oh and he's 25.....
bravesnumberone
12-03-2014, 06:20 PM
Wait, so we can actually negotiate with guys?
I'm fine, not overly thrilled, with the signing. Should be a solid player for us. But I really hope we look at keeping one of Justin and Gattis, preferably Justin now.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:21 PM
Have you seen some of the contracts being handed out?
2 years, 10-12 mil total, LOLZ.
Baseball economics are crazy right now, 10-11 mil per for Markakis is fine.
LOLZ look at Markakis the last 2 years and his age LOLZ
CyYoung31
12-03-2014, 06:21 PM
Our front office has gone full retard.
zbhargrove
12-03-2014, 06:21 PM
Markakis would be a very solid signing. We aren't going to ever be able to get a superstar in any sense unless you're living in a fairy tale.
"But, he's 31"... so? Tons of good players last well into their later 30s playing above average baseball. I know most people are scared because of Uggla, but they shouldn't be. Markakis is a much better athlete than Uggla was and he's a very different kind of player. Markakis is an on base/contact guy... Uggla could do two things... walk and homer. And then he couldn't homer anymore... completely black and white example.
"WAR"... who gives a crap about WAR? Its an awful statistic and puts way too much on defense. If you're going to sit here and tell me Jason Heyward was a better player than Markakis on offense, you are ridiculous. Yes Heywood has the potential to be a much better offensive player, but there were no signs he was progressing that way and he wasn't ever going to be on our team after next year anyways, no matter what you believe.
"Using injuries as an excuse for Markakis at the end of 2012 and 2013 is a weak argument"... Okay, but using injuries as an excuse for Heyward for a couple of years is completely valid? I swear, Heyward homers love double standards.
Out of all the limited, realistic options... Markakis is probably one of the most attractive and would be a good addition to the club depending on the rest of the off season. Miller, Jenkins, and Markakis with all the money saved and all the years of control is much more attractive than Heyward for 1 year... and if you can't see that, you cannot be reasoned with.
I loved Heyward too, but I'm not blinded by him... he's simply not near as valuable as some of you want to believe.
tvsportscaster
12-03-2014, 06:21 PM
This is a great signing. The guy has been a good player for many years and outside of one year he's durable and like someone mention about half the cost of what Heyward would have been.
The Chosen One
12-03-2014, 06:22 PM
We desperately need veteran leadership and he's very well respected throughout baseball.
That's why I wanted to sign Laird until he retires.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:22 PM
Done deal per Jeff Passan - 4 years 44mil
LMAO
Good signing.
Cant wait to see the bitching.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 06:23 PM
WAR is stupid.
Heyward gets most of his WAR because he's all-world on defense.
Markakis and Heyward are about the same offensively.
Defensively, obviously Heyward is better since he's all-world there.
But yall are acting like Markakis is terrible.
A career .360 OBP is pretty good.
Really? The last 3 years Heyward has a WRC+ of 116. Markakis is 104. How are they about the same?
thethe
12-03-2014, 06:23 PM
Because pitchers hitting their spots affects a players range.
Yes because you can feel more comfortable with positioning and jumps off the ball. Not sure how that isn't a fact.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:23 PM
I miss Wren
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:23 PM
LOLZ look at Markakis the last 2 years and his age LOLZ
31 is old?
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:24 PM
Really? The last 3 years Heyward has a WRC+ of 116. Markakis is 104. How are they about the same?
Heyward is better offensively but he's gonna cost twice as much as Markakis.
Heyward
12-03-2014, 06:24 PM
I miss Wren
Go be a Nats fan with giles.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:24 PM
31 is old?
In baseball with no PEDs? Absolutely
He has been declining for the last 3 years
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:24 PM
Go be a Nats fan with giles.
Cardinals
zbhargrove
12-03-2014, 06:25 PM
WAR is stupid LOL
Anyways.......
Heyward hasn't even hit his prime, he's only going to get better. You're using Markakis when he was 26-27-28 and he was really good, so his career numbers are skewed. He's been awful the last 2 years and is only getting older. Again, he had a 680 OPS in 2013 and 700 in the second half of last year....he's a fine player for 2 years and 10-12 mil TOTAL not PER YEAR, anything over that is just dumb.
WAR is an awful statistic... plenty of articles written about it.
BRule
12-03-2014, 06:25 PM
Gattis - BJ Upton - Markakis
hahahahahahahaha
atl717
12-03-2014, 06:26 PM
Why are people so focused on what Heyward was gonna make? Let's focus on the fact that we just gave big money to a low .700 OPS guy in decline with below average defense and poor base running.
Saying he is gonna make less than Heyward is terrible spin.
thewupk
12-03-2014, 06:26 PM
Yes because you can feel more comfortable with positioning and jumps off the ball. Not sure how that isn't a fact.
That plays a very minimal part. Actual talent (speed, taking correct routes, etc) is way more important. And to think it's not is lunacy.
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