Okay hack away about tax income

[AerchAngel]

I was offered a job in Minneapolis, a salary of 150k. I told them no thanks I am happy where I am at. Well some people from both families were not happy I didn't take it. I explained to them I only know 80% of the job requirements and I feel I was not up to the task in filling it. I am just an honest person and some people think that trait is not good.

Well I will call the person back to see if it is still available. If it is, karma is on my side. I ask the other programmer if I am ready to venture alone since she taught me so much when I had no schooling on that side. I was just an Air Traffic Controller and then a DBA (Database Administrator) for my career. Now I know four computer languages and she thinks I am proficient at two of them, enough to be employed at high end places like she is (we pay her $85 an hour).


Edit: I love you guys. You will find anything to fight about and I mean ANYTHING.

[Dalyn]

Good luck! Sounds like a great job. Hope you get it.

[Gary82]

Honesty is a good trait, but it sounds like you lack confidence. Of course, I don't know the details of the job or its implications, so who am I to judge. Here's hoping you get a second chance, if that is indeed what you want.

And to add, if they didn't think you were fit for the job, they wouldn't have offered it to you in the first place. They must feel that whatever you lack skill wise, you can make up for it in good time.

[The Chosen One]

What languages do you do? We can do business together.

[AerchAngel]

VB and ASP.net

Decent at AJAX/C#

She said I know the basics and can do PERL/PYTHON and other scripting languages.

The job is gone but he knows that I am interested if anything comes up.

Also, yes confidence is why I turned it down. Looking at what I do, my family, where I live, it is comfortable. This is why we haven't moved anywhere and she still wants to go to Charlotte, but they don't pay that well down there for us to consider that option.

[Dalyn]

VB and ASP.net

Decent at AJAX/C#

She said I know the basics and can do PERL/PYTHON and other scripting languages.

The job is gone but he knows that I am interested if anything comes up.

Also, yes confidence is why I turned it down. Looking at what I do, my family, where I live, it is comfortable. This is why we haven't moved anywhere and she still wants to go to Charlotte, but they don't pay that well down there for us to consider that option.

Sorry to hear it is no longer available, but if one person made you that kind of job offer, you'll get more.

[AerchAngel]

Sorry to hear it is no longer available, but if one person made you that kind of job offer, you'll get more.

It get calls all the time.

But my requirements are a little high. Minneapolis is not a city you want to move to unless you make six figures and be comfortable. So I set my standards at 115k a year as I do not want my wife working at all unless from home as she does now.

You can say I can't be choosy and most of the offers are around that range, but what I am looking for is some things I don't want to do, namely admin (network admin), I did that a long time and grew to hate it. I did the CISCO stuff and really a pain in the butt to deal with it, so I stop doing it and have no clue since technology changed. I can do normal admin active directory crap because when you program in a internet based environment you have to know your way around but that is the extent of it. Some of these jobs go to full backups, security and other things I don't want to be bother with.

Bottom line is that I want to code and code only, build projects using all the means to make it easier for everyone, just keep the admin stuff away from me.

[zitothebrave]

AA you may be the only person here who gets this.

I picked up a really old 8GB flash drive on clearance for a buck the other day. It's a Darth Vader Drive. On it I've put my portable app launcher, tweaking utility, combofix, PC decrapifier, and I'm probably gonna put Hitman on it at some point when i break down and get the license.

So as I like to imagine it, when someone's computer acts up, Darth Vader puts the force choke on the malware.

[Gary82]

VB and ASP.net

Decent at AJAX/C#

She said I know the basics and can do PERL/PYTHON and other scripting languages.

The job is gone but he knows that I am interested if anything comes up.

Also, yes confidence is why I turned it down. Looking at what I do, my family, where I live, it is comfortable. This is why we haven't moved anywhere and she still wants to go to Charlotte, but they don't pay that well down there for us to consider that option.

What languages were they asking for? Find out what is in demand (you probably know anyway). Start messing around on websites like codeacademy.com, they have a python course. Granted it's not in depth, but it'll give you a taste.

[goldfly]

surprised you would want to take that job

i mean, with Obummer taking all your money from taxes

republicans make me believe being paid that much is a real struggle in america for people making over 100k

[yeezus]

surprised you would want to take that job

i mean, with Obummer taking all your money from taxes

republicans make me believe being paid that much is a real struggle in america for people making over 100k

I'd rather make $15k per year so I get handed everything and have to pay less taxes.

[gilesfan]

surprised you would want to take that job

i mean, with Obummer taking all your money from taxes

republicans make me believe being paid that much is a real struggle in america for people making over 100k

I paid 20k in federal taxes last year and 7k in state taxes. How much did you pay?

[sturg33]

In the interest of fairness, how is it fair that one person pays more taxes than another?

[57Brave]

Ah, the "you're not the boss of me " contingent weighs in

"A tell tale sign of an immature mind is the expectation of fairness"
- Horace Clarke

//////

If I understand this thread -- AA is and has been unemployed for a great length of time ??

[Dalyn]

In the interest of fairness, how is it fair that one person pays more taxes than another?

By percentage, you mean, right? I agree if so.

[sturg33]

By percentage, you mean, right? I agree if so.

Technically no - but that would be a good start.

[50PoundHead]

I paid 20k in federal taxes last year and 7k in state taxes. How much did you pay?

More than you did.

[gilesfan]

More than you did.

Congrats! Now, Goldies turn.

[Tapate50]

Not sure why it surprises people that folks aren't pleased as punch to give 20%-40% of their earnings to the government.

[BlackwaterPark]

AA you may be the only person here who gets this.

I picked up a really old 8GB flash drive on clearance for a buck the other day. It's a Darth Vader Drive. On it I've put my portable app launcher, tweaking utility, combofix, PC decrapifier, and I'm probably gonna put Hitman on it at some point when i break down and get the license.

So as I like to imagine it, when someone's computer acts up, Darth Vader puts the force choke on the malware.

Thats freakin hilarious

[Gary82]

I paid 20k in federal taxes last year and 7k in state taxes. How much did you pay?

Oh yeah, well I paid a million gajillion eleventy blue in taxes.

[gilesfan]

Then you have a right to whine about taxes.

[zitothebrave]

Then you have a right to whine about taxes.

Where in the constitution is the right to whine about taxes?

[gilesfan]

Where in the constitution is the right to whine about taxes?

What does the constitution say about 50% of people not paying taxes while others pay 40% of their earnings?

[acesfull86]

Not sure why it surprises people that folks aren't pleased as punch to give 20%-40% of their earnings to the government.

It surprises me...don't these folks realize they'd earn nothing if not for government roads?

[Tapate50]

It surprises me...don't these folks realize they'd earn nothing if not for government roads?

Don't need roads, we gots the interweb. Roads are so 1985.

[zitothebrave]

What does the constitution say about 50% of people not paying taxes while others pay 40% of their earnings?

Who pays 40% of their earnings?

I'd like to see that person and offer to do their taxes for them for the difference in cost. Even if you file standard deductible and nothing else you don't get 40%.

That being said, I'm not shocked about your lack of knowledge on the subject. The 50% who didn't pay income tax still paid payroll taxes, state income taxes, etc. Now if you want to talk to me about an injustice, let's talk about the payroll tax cap. Why do people earning over 108.6K pay the same effective payrolltax as someone making 108.6K. Think about that while you're crying in your tax forms.

[goldfly]

so your accountant sucks is what you are saying giles

that sucks man

[The Chosen One]

Don't knock good guy giles. He is afterall voluntarily paying 40% of his taxes.

[gilesfan]

You guys don't know tax law, obviously.

(I don't pay 40%)

[zitothebrave]

You guys don't know tax law, obviously.

(I don't pay 40%)

Tax law, which caps federal income at 39.6. Effective tax rate has pretty consistently been 25-27%

[DirkPiggler]

Who pays 40% of their earnings?

I'd like to see that person and offer to do their taxes for them for the difference in cost. Even if you file standard deductible and nothing else you don't get 40%.

That being said, I'm not shocked about your lack of knowledge on the subject. The 50% who didn't pay income tax still paid payroll taxes, state income taxes, etc. Now if you want to talk to me about an injustice, let's talk about the payroll tax cap. Why do people earning over 108.6K pay the same effective payrolltax as someone making 108.6K. Think about that while you're crying in your tax forms.

Payroll taxes are not taxes, at least not in the same sense as income or property taxes.

With FICA and Medicare "taxes", the payer is putting money into an account that he or she will draw from at some point. I can't draw your Social Security or Medicare, at least not in theory. It's not the same as putting all the tax receipts into a pool and using that money for the "common good." We all receive benefits from the income taxes we pay, but not a direct benefit that can be tied back to the amount we contributed. The person who pays no income tax isn't contributing one dime to roads, social programs, national defense, or other government agencies. He or she is only paying into what is basically a retirement program that covers his or her post-retirement income and healthcare. And he or she is only paying half of that, as his/her employer is matching it dollar for dollar. You and I (and others who pay income tax) are funding the government. Those who pay no income tax are funding themselves, assuming they live long enough to draw their benefits.

Sorry, but that is a pet peeve of mine, when people throw payroll "taxes" out to imply that those who pay no income tax are still paying their fair share. The 50% that aren't paying income taxes are riding in that respect.

[zitothebrave]

Payroll taxes are not taxes, at least not in the same sense as income or property taxes.

With FICA and Medicare "taxes", the payer is putting money into an account that he or she will draw from at some point. I can't draw your Social Security or Medicare, at least not in theory. It's not the same as putting all the tax receipts into a pool and using that money for the "common good." We all receive benefits from the income taxes we pay, but not a direct benefit that can be tied back to the amount we contributed. The person who pays no income tax isn't contributing one dime to roads, social programs, national defense, or other government agencies. He or she is only paying into what is basically a retirement program that covers his or her post-retirement income and healthcare. And he or she is only paying half of that, as his/her employer is matching it dollar for dollar. You and I (and others who pay income tax) are funding the government. Those who pay no income tax are funding themselves, assuming they live long enough to draw their benefits.

Sorry, but that is a pet peeve of mine, when people throw payroll "taxes" out to imply that those who pay no income tax are still paying their fair share. The 50% that aren't paying income taxes are riding in that respect.

Well, odds are the people who pay income taxes aren't contributing much to roads as roads are traditionally maintained by gas taxes and IIRC property taxes for local streets.

That being said, the odds of someone poor living until they're old enough to collect medicare, SS, etc. is much lower than the odds of someone who's wealthy.

That being said, I don't have any desire to discuss the 50% any more. If you look at the numbers even a little, then you'll understand why it's stupid to cite as a problem when we have so many more issues.

[gilesfan]

Tax law, which caps federal income at 39.6. Effective tax rate has pretty consistently been 25-27%

This is an average, correct?

[zitothebrave]

This is an average, correct?

Herp-de-derp. Average of the top 1% to be specific.

[gilesfan]

Herp-de-derp. Average of the top 1% to be specific.

So, in theory some are above this and some below?

[zitothebrave]

So, in theory some are above this and some below?

Duh. ANd I know where you're going, you should know how I'll counter it, so you shouldn't even think about going there.

[gilesfan]

Just making sure you know what an average is.

[zitothebrave]

Just making sure you know what an average is.

And that line of questions theredoesn't change my point, that if anyone is paying 40% (or 39.6%) they're idiots. No one pays their actual tax rate.

[yeezus]

Just making sure you know what an average is.

It does mean that a large majority falls within one standard deviation of that average. So very close.

[50PoundHead]

This is a little old and the higher marginal tax rate on high income earners likely isn't factored in, the but here's a pretty good synopsis on effective tax rates by income class.

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2012.pdf

[DirkPiggler]

Well, odds are the people who pay income taxes aren't contributing much to roads as roads are traditionally maintained by gas taxes and IIRC property taxes for local streets.

People who pay income taxes are more likely to pay property taxes, or at least more total dollars in property taxes, than those who pay no income tax.




That being said, the odds of someone poor living until they're old enough to collect medicare, SS, etc. is much lower than the odds of someone who's wealthy.

And the odds of someone who is poor collecting SSI, or having a child who has paid nothing into the SS system doing so, are much higher than the odds of someone who's wealthy.



That being said, I don't have any desire to discuss the 50% any more. If you look at the numbers even a little, then you'll understand why it's stupid to cite as a problem when we have so many more issues.

It's a drop in the bucket, no doubt. And I'm not one who believes we can get out of debt on the backs of the poor, although I do believe that reducing options for making a living without working would benefit everyone. All I was doing was pointing out the fallacy in your "poor people pay taxes too" argument.

[AerchAngel]

The last time I was unemployed is when I finished my degree in Wisconsin, all of 3 months.

Nice try.

People like me can wake up and get a job, the question is, which one we want. If can turn away those that make more than your SS per month for a few years combined say as much asshole.

Being black up here is even a bonus, hate being paraded as a trophy to be honest.

[gilesfan]

The last time I was unemployed is when I finished my degree in Wisconsin, all of 3 months.

Nice try.

People like me can wake up and get a job, the question is, which one we want. If can turn away those that make more than your SS per month for a few years combined say as much asshole.

Being black up here is even a bonus, hate being paraded as a trophy to be honest.

Almost any that actually wants a job and actively seeks one can get a job. Sometimes its not what they like, but they can get a job. There are plenty that overstate their self worth and think they are going to make 50k right out of college so they search forever.

The last time I was unemployed I was 15 years old.

[AerchAngel]

Almost any that actually wants a job and actively seeks one can get a job. Sometimes its not what they like, but they can get a job. There are plenty that overstate their self worth and think they are going to make 50k right out of college so they search forever.

The last time I was unemployed I was 15 years old.

You get it.

Being in my position it is easier though. Being a programmer, I get calls daily, to the point a lot of them are blocked. Anyone can get a job if they want one, if I hear the liberals say there aren't any jobs, they are lying through their damn teeth. We got many signs here in this city of nearly 100k of needing people. My company is starving for people and starting pay is 50k, 50 freaking k and we are having a hard time. We have the cheapest and most affordable bennies in the area. I interviewed for a bank job, They wanted $1100 for health insurance, a month for family plan with out of pocket and ER not even part of the plan. That was an automatic no from me right there. The interview ended there and I told them from their parking lot, I wasn't interested. I was honest and told them your bennies sucked.

[gilesfan]

****, we went looking for a programmer. Dude is making 150 while locked away in his basement playing on the cpu.

[AerchAngel]

****, we went looking for a programmer. Dude is making 150 while locked away in his basement playing on the cpu.

not me, my computer is in a office next to the family room. I built a photo studio for my wife in the basement that can even challenge studios. I don't like fighting my wife when when she buys expensive things. If she is out of my hair, it makes me happy. Now I have to replace a few things to make it better......................<sigh>

My gosh she is raking in cash right now as a photographer and others in the area are not happy. She has two companies now <roll's eye on the tax issue>.

But I told her, if they quit being greedy and have quality stuff then people might use them. If I am not mistaken, Dalyn, Okie and Bedell can see my wife's work and they would agree, she is really good.


If I really don't want to work, I can quit, but I am not like that.

[thethe]

Agreed, there are absolutely jobs out there if people want to look for them. But we have the poor loving their free money and we have the wealthy robbing us blind. Sucks to be middle class.

[AerchAngel]

Agreed, there are absolutely jobs out there if people want to look for them. But we have the poor loving their free money and we have the wealthy robbing us blind. Sucks to be middle class.

This area have many open jobs and most of them pay more than $10 an hour. Even retail.

Go figure.

[Gary82]

The circle jerk is strong in this thread.

Of course, I just accepted a new job that's going to be paying me significantly more than I've ever made. I already know what impact taxes are going to have on my paycheck.

But. I. Promise. I. Won't. Be. A. Whiney. Little. Pu$$y. When. It. Comes. To. Taxes.

At least, not here. :D

[Krgrecw]

This area have many open jobs and most of them pay more than $10 an hour. Even retail.

Go figure.



Why would you work for $10 an hour when you can get that much on welfare?

[zitothebrave]

Why would you work for $10 an hour when you can get that much on welfare?

It's like you don't even know what welfare is.

[Gary82]

It's going to be an interesting when machines and robots take over the vast majority of jobs in this country. The calls for picking yourself up by your own bootstraps will be a thing of the past. We will eventually have to figure out how to tolerate, motivate, and exist in a country of millions of people with a lot of free time on their hands. Of course, this is still decades away, but it's interesting how working hard just to work hard will no longer be considered a virtue in this country.

[zitothebrave]

It's a drop in the bucket, no doubt. And I'm not one who believes we can get out of debt on the backs of the poor, although I do believe that reducing options for making a living without working would benefit everyone. All I was doing was pointing out the fallacy in your "poor people pay taxes too" argument.

But they are paying taxes. Sure it's not the same, but it's something.

[Gary82]

Agreed, there are absolutely jobs out there if people want to look for them. But we have the poor loving their free money and we have the wealthy robbing us blind. Sucks to be middle class.


http://youtu.be/XdH38k0iUgI

[DirkPiggler]

But they are paying taxes. Sure it's not the same, but it's something.

Not really. It's like saying I'm paying taxes when I put money into my retirement plan and pay for my health insurance. Only difference is that Social Security and Medicare are held out by mandatory payroll deduction because otherwise most would save nothing on their own. If it's money deposited into an account in your name, and only you (or your beneficiaries) can draw money or obtain services paid for by that account, you aren't paying a true tax. Only businesses can truly consider FICA and Medicare as taxes.

[yeezus]

I don't know if we're strictly talking about income tax, but it's fair to point out that middle class and poor people pay a much larger % of their money in sales taxes and other things like it than rich people do.

[Dalyn]

Agreed, there are absolutely jobs out there if people want to look for them. But we have the poor loving their free money and we have the wealthy robbing us blind. Sucks to be middle class.

When I was still a teenager, I would jump from **** job to **** job (temp agency) and work insane hours for **** pay while some of my chronically unemployed friends (one in particular) had the state pay for their housing and food and everything basically. I didn't really have a problem with them doing that, but it still sucked.

[sturg33]

I just wonder what would happen if we started removing some of these safety nets.

[sturg33]

I also wonder if some of the progressive tax folks believe that when you go to dinner with someone who makes more money than you, should the check be distributed differently because of that alone?

I can't for the life of me understand how people can defend such a discriminatory practice.

[The Chosen One]

I also wonder if some of the progressive tax folks believe that when you go to dinner with someone who makes more money than you, should the check be distributed differently because of that alone?

.
What a ridiculous and absurd question.

This is the type of thinking/talking point as to why libertarians cannot gain traction on the national front.

And for what it's worth I make probably 6-7 times less than my doctor friends and I've paid for the check just as much as they have. You know what's somewhat condescending? The fact they feel bad just because they know they make more money than I do that I buy them lunch.

[Dalyn]

I just wonder what would happen if we started removing some of these safety nets.

Some undeserving people would end up on the streets. It's so hard to determine who needs it and who doesn't. I would rather a few people defraud the government than many people end up homeless and hungry.

[The Chosen One]

Some undeserving people would end up on the streets. It's so hard to determine who needs it and who doesn't. I would rather a few people defraud the government than many people end up homeless and hungry.

And create lawlessness that makes Katrina aftermath look like child's play.

[Gary82]

I just wonder what would happen if we started removing some of these safety nets.

More poverty? A more dangerous nation?

[sturg33]

What a ridiculous and absurd question.

This is the type of thinking/talking point as to why libertarians cannot gain traction on the national front.

And for what it's worth I make probably 6-7 times less than my doctor friends and I've paid for the check just as much as they have. You know what's somewhat condescending? The fact they feel bad just because they know they make more money than I do that I buy them lunch.

I don't understand your point. So you're fine with the progressive income tax, but not fine with the same rationale privately?

[sturg33]

Some undeserving people would end up on the streets. It's so hard to determine who needs it and who doesn't. I would rather a few people defraud the government than many people end up homeless and hungry.

But 99 weeks? Seriously?

I would of course do away with all welfare (both corporate and and social)... But at the very least, I'd love to make it mandatory that people receiving welfare must do 20 hours of community service per week. I'd wager that the time on unemployment benefits would decrease overall, and the community would at least get some return on their tax money

[gilesfan]

More poverty? A more dangerous nation?

It depends on if you think people would find it in themselves to work when they actually have to.

[gilesfan]

Some undeserving people would end up on the streets. It's so hard to determine who needs it and who doesn't. I would rather a few people defraud the government than many people end up homeless and hungry.


That's understandable for sure.

[Gary82]

It depends on if you think people would find it in themselves to work when they actually have to.

Some would. Some can't no matter what the circumstances. Some will never work and find other means to make money.

What I do know is the dangers of poverty are real and cannot be underestimated.

[Dalyn]

It depends on if you think people would find it in themselves to work when they actually have to.

People are ****ty. The same person who would quit their job to get more help from the government would help themselves to whatever they could beg, borrow, or steal if the government stopped letting them do the same to it.

[yeezus]

What I do know is the dangers of poverty are real and cannot be underestimated.

And the dangers of growing up in it are huge and impact people for a lifetime.

[yeezus]

I don't understand your point. So you're fine with the progressive income tax, but not fine with the same rationale privately?

I just think it's a terrible comparison. You always bring up these comparisons that different on soooooooo many levels but similar on one, and I don't think it ever proves a point.

[goldfly]

I also wonder if some of the progressive tax folks believe that when you go to dinner with someone who makes more money than you, should the check be distributed differently because of that alone?

I can't for the life of me understand how people can defend such a discriminatory practice.

are you kidding me?

that is a terrible example to use and reminds me of people that say "hey, there is snow outside in winter and it is hot in summer. CLIMATE CHANGE ISN'T REAL!!" when talking about climate change

[sturg33]

are you kidding me?

that is a terrible example to use and reminds me of people that say "hey, there is snow outside in winter and it is hot in summer. CLIMATE CHANGE ISN'T REAL!!" when talking about climate change

Explain why it is different

[sturg33]

I just think it's a terrible comparison. You always bring up these comparisons that different on soooooooo many levels but similar on one, and I don't think it ever proves a point.

Which you mind explaining why it's different on "sooooooooooo many levels"?

[goldfly]

More poverty? A more dangerous nation?

but we could be more 3rd world

which would be awesome and all

[Dalyn]

Explain why it is different

Because they are buying different things. When it comes to taxes, we're all buying the same thing.

[yeezus]

Which you mind explaining why it's different on "sooooooooooo many levels"?

you want me to sit here and explain to you the difference between tax structures and going out to dinner with your friends? I'm sure you can figure out a lot of differences on your own.

And for what this anecdote is worth, when I go out for drinks with my little cousin I tend to pay for a lot of his because he's a college student and is hurting for money more than me, and I'm an almost finished college student with a FT job not hurting for money. But that's about as valuable as the comparison you made.

[sturg33]

Because they are buying different things. When it comes to taxes, we're all buying the same thing.

So, for example... I went to Vegas with 3 friends a few weeks back.

One of the 4 makes over $300K a year... I makes less than half of that. The other two are in grad school and make nothing.

So theoretically, we should have paid for the hotel differently? With me and my friend paying for the whole bill, although, he would pay more than I would.

Are the progressive income tax in favor of this? And if it is not an apt comparison, please explain specifically why

[sturg33]

you want me to sit here and explain to you the difference between tax structures and going out to dinner with your friends? I'm sure you can figure out a lot of differences on your own.

And for what this anecdote is worth, when I go out for drinks with my little cousin I tend to pay for a lot of his because he's a college student and is hurting for money more than me, and I'm an almost finished college student with a FT job not hurting for money. But that's about as valuable as the comparison you made.

Obviously, they are different "things." But the principle is exactly the same. If not, please describe the differences specifically

[yeezus]

Do some people rely on safety nets too much and become unmotivated to work? Definitely.
Do some people legit need it? Definitely.
Is the system perfect? Definitely not.
The best way to solve this problem is to bring them out of poverty. Simply cutting what a majority of them are getting, I fail to see how that would solve the problem. They wouldn't just magically be able to go find a job now. It really is not that easy, especially for people born and raised in really bad circumstances. It's a huge, deep-rooted problem that creates and maintains a vicious cycle. Simply saying they're all just lazy is completely unproductive.

[The Chosen One]

Explain why it is different

I want people to be able to practice their religion without the government telling them what to preach. Even if I am not a religious person. I want the government to help establish and protect that.

I want the government to help establish a progressive tax policy where the rich can't screw the poor and middle class into lawlessness and civil war but I don't want the government telling me how to spend what money I have after taxes.

I don't mind the government taking my money via taxes and using it for social welfare programs. Yodon't want it period. There's where we differ.

I would prefer there be an agency to help crack down on welfare abuse but you want to eliminate it altogether. And as Dalyn said I would rather the people that need it get it even if it means a few bad apples are defrauding the system.

[sturg33]

Do some people rely on safety nets too much and become unmotivated to work? Definitely.
Do some people legit need it? Definitely.
Is the system perfect? Definitely not.
The best way to solve this problem is to bring them out of poverty. Simply cutting what a majority of them are getting, I fail to see how that would solve the problem. They wouldn't just magically be able to go find a job now. It really is not that easy, especially for people born and raised in really bad circumstances. It's a huge, deep-rooted problem that creates and maintains a vicious cycle. Simply saying they're all just lazy is completely unproductive.

So what point is the cutoff? I believe today it is 99 weeks? Is it ok to cut them off then? Or should we extend to forever? Serious question...

[yeezus]

So what point is the cutoff? I believe today it is 99 weeks? Is it ok to cut them off then? Or should we extend to forever? Serious question...

I don't know, that's for people with far more intelligence than me to decide.

[sturg33]

I want people to be able to practice their religion without the government telling them what to preach. Even if I am not a religious person. I want the government to help establish and protect that.

I want the government to help establish a progressive tax policy where the rich can't screw the poor and middle class into lawlessness and civil war but I don't want the government telling me how to spend what money I have after taxes.

I don't mind the government taking my money via taxes and using it for social welfare programs. Yodon't want it period. There's where we differ.

I would prefer there be an agency to help crack down on welfare abuse but you want to eliminate it altogether. And as Dalyn said I would rather the people that need it get it even if it means a few bad apples are defrauding the system.

So if you "want" that... then why you wouldn't you "want" it privately? It's the same principle. That the rich should pay a greater share for the same services because they can afford it.

[sturg33]

I don't know, that's for people with far more intelligence than me to decide.

But isn't cutting them off at 99 weeks just as heartless as cutting them off at 52 weeks? If so, wouldn't you favor extending benefits indefinitely?

[yeezus]

So if you "want" that... then why you wouldn't you "want" it privately? It's the same principle. That the rich should pay a greater share for the same services because they can afford it.

And because they have the power and ability to pay themselves almost endless amount of money while cutting jobs and hurting those below them, just because they've figured out a way to do so. And because their money is often times sitting dead and not moving around, which really hurts the economy as a whole. And because they're far more likely to move their money out of the country, thus hurting the economy even more.

There's that stat of what the average CEO made vs. their lower employees in the 80s compared to now, and it is disturbing. Why should they be making exponential amounts more? Because they figured out a way to do so? Because they're actually that much more valuable? How is that good for anyone but them?

[Dalyn]

So, for example... I went to Vegas with 3 friends a few weeks back.

One of the 4 makes over $300K a year... I makes less than half of that. The other two are in grad school and make nothing.

So theoretically, we should have paid for the hotel differently? With me and my friend paying for the whole bill, although, he would pay more than I would.

Are the progressive income tax in favor of this? And if it is not an apt comparison, please explain specifically why

No, though if I went with you I would've offered to pay for the two in grad school. Taxes cover a percentage of your income. I don't think that percentage should increase with your income, but I definitely don't think your buddy making 300K should give the government the exact same amount of money as your buddy in grad school. The government provides a system the individual can utilize to survive. There is a fee involved with utilizing that system (that is in turn used to help that system survive). If you don't want to pay the fee, don't use the system.

[yeezus]

But isn't cutting them off at 99 weeks just as heartless as cutting them off at 52 weeks? If so, wouldn't you favor extending benefits indefinitely?

99 weeks is probably enough time to find a job for a majority of people.

[sturg33]

And because they have the power and ability to pay themselves almost endless amount of money while cutting jobs and hurting those below them, just because they've figured out a way to do so. And because their money is often times sitting dead and not moving around, which really hurts the economy as a whole. And because they're far more likely to move their money out of the country, thus hurting the economy even more.

There's that stat of what the average CEO made vs. their lower employees in the 80s compared to now, and it is disturbing. Why should they be making exponential amounts more? Because they figured out a way to do so? Because they're actually that much more valuable? How is that good for anyone but them?

It sounds like you support wage caps?

[The Chosen One]

So if you "want" that... then why you wouldn't you "want" it privately? It's the same principle. That the rich should pay a greater share for the same services because they can afford it.

I want gay people to marry. I am not gay. I want the government to establish and protect that right for gays. Does that mean I'm delusional for allowing the government to take my tax money to help establish that right for something I myself do not do?

[yeezus]

It sounds like you support wage caps?

Nope, not necessarily.
Wage caps in relation to employees in your company? Ok, I could listen to that. CEOs have companies that lose money, lay-off a bunch of people, and their bonus goes up. Lol, no. That is absurd.

[sturg33]

No, though if I went with you I would've offered to pay for the two in grad school. Taxes cover a percentage of your income. I don't think that percentage should increase with your income, but I definitely don't think your buddy making 300K should give the government the exact same amount of money as your buddy in grad school. The government provides a system the individual can utilize to survive. There is a fee involved with utilizing that system (that is in turn used to help that system survive). If you don't want to pay the fee, don't use the system.

That's fine... and for the record, we did subsidize the other two by basically paying for all dinners and shows. But that's more of a kindness thing, not something I principally believe in.

I also agree with you - it should be a set % at the very least... not progressive like it is today.

[gilesfan]

No, though if I went with you I would've offered to pay for the two in grad school. Taxes cover a percentage of your income. I don't think that percentage should increase with your income, but I definitely don't think your buddy making 300K should give the government the exact same amount of money as your buddy in grad school. The government provides a system the individual can utilize to survive. There is a fee involved with utilizing that system (that is in turn used to help that system survive). If you don't want to pay the fee, don't use the system.

You would pay for your friends to go to Vegas?

Can we be friends?

[sturg33]

I want gay people to marry. I am not gay. I want the government to establish and protect that right for gays. Does that mean I'm delusional for allowing the government to take my tax money to help establish that right for something I myself do not do?

You're missing the point.

[sturg33]

Nope, not necessarily.
Wage caps in relation to employees in your company? Ok, I could listen to that. CEOs have companies that lose money, lay-off a bunch of people, and their bonus goes up. Lol, no. That is absurd.

Why is what a CEO of a private business makes your concern? It's not. You shouldn't be able to dictate what they pay themselves or their employees.

As well as we shouldn't be using any corporate welfare to subsidize them either

[Dalyn]

You would pay for your friends to go to Vegas?

Can we be friends?

Yes. I've done it a few times (and many times going to Tunica). And the winners always made sure we all went home even.

[The Chosen One]

You're missing the point.

You're missing the point that dalyn myself and yeezus sort of have made the last 2 pages of this thread.

And the fact you still equivocate money spent after taxes with a progressive income tax system is silly.

[Dalyn]

That's fine... and for the record, we did subsidize the other two by basically paying for all dinners and shows. But that's more of a kindness thing, not something I principally believe in.

I also agree with you - it should be a set % at the very least... not progressive like it is today.

You really have to look at it like this - By getting a job, you're investing in yourself through the government. Their cut (cause all middle men take cuts) is dependent on your ROI. If you get more back on your investment than your buddy (make more money), their cut is going to reflect that difference.

[gilesfan]

Yes. I've done it a few times (and many times going to Tunica). And the winners always made sure we all went home even.

Are you friends with any Republicans?

[sturg33]

You're missing the point that dalyn myself and yeezus sort of have made the last 2 pages of this thread.

And the fact you still equivocate money spent after taxes with a progressive income tax system is silly.

I'm saying if you support the unequal spend of income publicly, why wouldn't you support it privately?

You have not answered this at all. You keep equating to gay marriage. Talk about a bad example...

[Dalyn]

Are you friends with any Republicans?

My best friend is a Republican. Similar to how I am, but a bit more right in just about every department.

[Dalyn]

Are you friends with any Republicans?

I usually lose interest in people who always agree with me.

[Dalyn]

Are you friends with any Republicans?


I usually lose interest in people who always agree with me.

Which can suck because I'm pretty damn good at getting people to agree with me.

[Dalyn]

That's fine... and for the record, we did subsidize the other two by basically paying for all dinners and shows. But that's more of a kindness thing, not something I principally believe in.

I also agree with you - it should be a set % at the very least... not progressive like it is today.


You really have to look at it like this - By getting a job, you're investing in yourself through the government. Their cut (cause all middle men take cuts) is dependent on your ROI. If you get more back on your investment than your buddy (make more money), their cut is going to reflect that difference.

In other words, stop looking at it as someone paying more than someone else and start looking at it like those people made a better investment.

[goldfly]

I just wonder what would happen if we started removing some of these safety nets.

we would become more 3rd world

talked about this with someone in Laos. How he hasn't been able to find a real job at all and goes hungry a lot between the "side jobs" he does get here and there

said he wished he lived in a country that would look out for citizens and help them when times are tough like we do in the USA cause i told him if i was to lose my job i had programs i could use to keep me on my feet till i found a new job

[gilesfan]

we would become more 3rd world

talked about this with someone in Laos. How he hasn't been able to find a real job at all and goes hungry a lot between the "side jobs" he does get here and there

said he wished he lived in a country that would look out for citizens and help them when times are tough like we do in the USA cause i told him if i was to lose my job i had programs i could use to keep me on my feet till i found a new job

Yeah, who wouldn't like getting paid without working?

[goldfly]

Yeah, who wouldn't like getting paid without working?

glad to see you understood that post

[The Chosen One]

J.K. Rowling on why she won't move her money to a tax haven and keeps it in higher taxed GBR.


I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons. The main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain’s; (..)
A second reason, however, was that I am indebted to the British welfare state; the very one that Mr Cameron would like to replace with charity handouts. When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, threadbare though it had become under John Major’s Government, was there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is my notion of patriotism. On the available evidence, I suspect that it is Lord Ashcroft’s idea of being a mug

[goldfly]

i wonder if we would actually be like Europe if World War 2 had actually made it to the lower 48

[sturg33]

So is cutting off unemployment at 99 weeks heartless? (thanks to yeezus for answering already)

[acesfull86]

I think it's heartless to legislate an $8/hr worker out of the job market by saying you have to pay all workers at least $10/hr.

[goldfly]

I think it's heartless to legislate an $8/hr worker out of the job market by saying you have to pay all workers at least $10/hr.


:Mindisblown

[DirkPiggler]

But at the very least, I'd love to make it mandatory that people receiving welfare must do 20 hours of community service per week. I'd wager that the time on unemployment benefits would decrease overall, and the community would at least get some return on their tax money

This makes the most sense of anything in the discussion, although I don't know that I'd set a specific number of hours across the board. I'd count time spent working towards an education as well. The point is to make sure there is an opportunity cost associated with any government aid, at least for everyone that is able-bodied.

[thethe]

It really is a shame that all this attention is paid to the wealthy and the poor when its the middle class that is getting railroaded.

[Dalyn]

It really is a shame that all this attention is paid to the wealthy and the poor when its the middle class that is getting railroaded.

You have a point, of course. The middle class, especially the lower middle class, keep this country somewhat on a forward trajectory. But no one gets it worse than the poor, especially now that the rungs from poor to lower middle class were snapped off by the banks. The system needs to replace those rungs or the lower middle class will gradually disappear, and it's going to be chaos on slow boil.

[Dalyn]

This makes the most sense of anything in the discussion, although I don't know that I'd set a specific number of hours across the board. I'd count time spent working towards an education as well. The point is to make sure there is an opportunity cost associated with any government aid, at least for everyone that is able-bodied.

It would basically create a slave class.

[The Chosen One]

It really is a shame that all this attention is paid to the wealthy and the poor when its the middle class that is getting railroaded.

It's a shame the rich try to shift the focus in the media towards the poor so middle class people are fighting each other and demonizing the poor while the super rich are behind the scenes boning everyone else.

[thethe]

It's a shame the rich try to shift the focus in the media towards the poor so middle class people are fighting each other and demonizing the poor while the super rich are behind the scenes boning everyone else.

I agree 100%. And then its also a shame that politicians use the plight of the poor to divert the focus away from the middle class and how they are continually being pinched of a reasonable livlihood without working absurd hours.

[Dalyn]

I agree 100%. And then its also a shame that politicians use the plight of the poor to divert the focus away from the middle class and how they are continually being pinched of a reasonable livlihood without working absurd hours.

Pretty sure you and Heywood are talking about the same people.

[Krgrecw]

why are so many jealous of the rich?

Why can't we all just go out and work hard, save our money, live within our means and not have to buy a new shiney TV or a car we can't possibly afford?


I don't make much money, but it's not Wall Streets fault that I didn't take school seriously.

[DirkPiggler]

It would basically create a slave class.

No it wouldn't. People would be compensated at a fair rate for the work they did. And they would have some choice in what job they performed. Not to mention that they would have the option of spending that time for a private employer and forgoing the government aid.

The biggest problem with government aid isn't the money spent. It's the erosion of the work ethic. Some of the ideas I propose would actually cost more in the short term, but would broaden the tax base in the long term by reducing unemployment and reducing the income gap.

Based on what you posted above you seem to think that the wealthy are to blame for the lack of upward mobility in today's poor. I contend that the ease of getting by without working has done more to widen the income disparity than anything any CEO or bank has done.

I hire people who are generally at the bottom rung of the economic ladder. My biggest competitors in the labor market are government entitlements and the ability to sell drugs on the street. People who are dirt poor and unmotivated would much rather stay home and do nothing for their $300 per week of take home pay rather than busting their ass in an unglamorous job for 20-40 hours per week, and I can't blame them. We promote from within for just about every job we have, so a motivated employee with a good work ethic won't be stuck in a $8-$9 per hour job per long, but most people either can't or won't look far enough ahead to realize that. We as a society have made it too easy for people to subsist at an acceptable standard of living (to them) without putting forth any effort.

A direct quote from a former employee: "Why in the hell would I work four hours for you to get $35 dollars two weeks from now when I can sell a bag of weed for $30 in ten minutes?" Marijuana legalization and drug decriminalization are a start, but are also a topic for another day.

Our country should always have a safety net, but that net should also ease people back towards the top instead of tangling them up to where they can only get out with extraordinary effort.

[Oklahomahawk]

It's a shame the rich try to shift the focus in the media towards the poor so middle class people are fighting each other and demonizing the poor while the super rich are behind the scenes boning everyone else.

This is EXACTLY what's going on and has been going on since the 1980s. So, why can't more people see it? Oh they an see it easily when it's "that other party" who's doing it, but their own party (your know, the GOOD guys) can do it right in front of their eyes 24/7/365 and they're totally clueless.

[Dalyn]

No it wouldn't. People would be compensated at a fair rate for the work they did.

Oh, okay. That's not community service then, which is what Sturg suggested.

[Dalyn]

why are so many jealous of the rich?

Why can't we all just go out and work hard, save our money, live within our means and not have to buy a new shiney TV or a car we can't possibly afford?


I don't make much money, but it's not Wall Streets fault that I didn't take school seriously.

There are plenty of rich people who are fantastic and do great things for the world. I personally have no issue with any of them, and I can't stand haters who just don't want to see people doing well in life. But let's not act like that means there isn't a HUGE issue among the wealthy where they manipulate the media and politicians to create a means to exploit the system. We've had 500+ rich asshole skimming from the bottom on the way in and the top on the way out for a century, and THAT is the reason we are so devastatingly in debt as a government AND on an individual level.

[Dalyn]

Why can't we all just go out and work hard, save our money, live within our means and not have to buy a new shiney TV or a car we can't possibly afford?


And the real problem isn't families who can't afford a shiny TV, it's families who can't afford ****ing food.

[thethe]

why are so many jealous of the rich?

Why can't we all just go out and work hard, save our money, live within our means and not have to buy a new shiney TV or a car we can't possibly afford?


I don't make much money, but it's not Wall Streets fault that I didn't take school seriously.

Because going out and working hard doesn't get you what it did 50 years ago. Times are changing and if they continue to chnage then we will all sacrifice too much.

[thethe]

And the real problem isn't families who can't afford a shiny TV, it's families who can't afford ****ing food.

I think that problem is caused by those families. Everyone can work to provide the bear necessities for their families. This is of course excluding the physically/mentally disabled.

[Krgrecw]

yeah. They're are some rich people that abuse the system but there are plenty of people on the opposite part of the spectrum that don't contribute a penny either or lift thier finger.





Everyone should pay the same percentage and everyone should have to contribute something. Don't get much fairer than that.

[weso1]

J.K. Rowling on why she won't move her money to a tax haven and keeps it in higher taxed GBR.

I just assumed all economic liberals did this. Surely those who profess the virtues of substantial big government welfare don't use tax shelters that takes money away from the community pot. Just think, we could easily fund welfare if all economic liberals with means were to avoid all tax shelters. If they view welfare to be so important than to avoid tax shelters should be a no brainer. Because to not do so would be incredibly greedy.

Also, nice to see that "threadbare" welfare is all that's needed according to JK. Look what happened to her based only on "threadbare" welfare.

[Dalyn]

I think that problem is caused by those families.

Then you have a massive blind spot.

[thethe]

Then you have a massive blind spot.

So if its not the families fault then whose it is?

If its a family with one parent then isn't the families fault they couldn't work it out?

If the family has too many children when they couldn't afford it isn't the families fault?

If there are jobs that pay minimum wage out there and they are not trying for those whose fault is it?

[Dalyn]

yeah. They're are some rich people that abuse the system but there are plenty of people on the opposite part of the spectrum that don't contribute a penny either or lift thier finger.





Everyone should pay the same percentage and everyone should have to contribute something. Don't get much fairer than that.

Agreed. But 100+ years of exploitation has created a huge problem that must be addressed. It seems insignificant on an individual and present-day level, but it builds up. We can't just continue to let them do it.

[Krgrecw]

Because going out and working hard doesn't get you what it did 50 years ago. Times are changing and if they continue to chnage then we will all sacrifice too much.




So what are we exactly entitled to in life? A big house? A big SUV?


I make less than you. Probably make half as much as you do but I live comfortably because I live within my means (not to say you don't). I know I can't possibly afford to travel to Europe this summer for two weeks or anything but that's really my fault for not taking school seriously. It's not wall streets fault

[Dalyn]

So if its not the families fault then whose it is?

If its a family with one parent then isn't the families fault they couldn't work it out?

If the family has too many children when they couldn't afford it isn't the families fault?

If there are jobs that pay minimum wage out there and they are not trying for those whose fault is it?

It is no longer a system where as long as you aren't lazy or incompetent you can work hard and dig out of your birthright. Now it's a system where you can dig out of your birthright if your grandfather wasn't lazy or incompetent. If he was, you're pretty much ****ed unless someone with a better grandfather helps you out.

[thethe]

So what are we exactly entitled to in life? A big house? A big SUV?


I make less than you. Probably make half as much as you do but I live comfortably because I live within my means (not to say you don't). I know I can't possibly afford to travel to Europe this summer for two weeks or anything but that's really my fault for not taking school seriously. It's not wall streets fault

I am the last person that wants those things. I grew up barely above the poverty line (luckily). All I want is to be able to raise a family without having to work 12+ hours a day. I do not crave excesses. I am very simple person when it comes to material possessions. Maybe things are different in other states but to get ahead in NY you have to work like a madman.

[thethe]

It is no longer a system where as long as you aren't lazy or incompetent you can work hard and dig out of your birthright. Now it's a system where you can dig out of your birthright if your grandfather wasn't lazy or incompetent. If he was, you're pretty much ****ed unless someone with a better grandfather helps you out.

So again, why have children if you can't afford it? Doesn't hte family have to take responsibility for their actions as well? Its hard for me to get upset over this when you see a family of 5 struggling to survive and think to yourself, "Why did they have children in the first place?"

[Dalyn]

So again, why have children if you can't afford it? Doesn't hte family have to take responsibility for their actions as well? Its hard for me to get upset over this when you see a family of 5 struggling to survive and think to yourself, "Why did they have children in the first place?"

So that child should just be ****ed because his grandfather had more kids than he should've?

[Dalyn]

So again, why have children if you can't afford it? Doesn't hte family have to take responsibility for their actions as well? Its hard for me to get upset over this when you see a family of 5 struggling to survive and think to yourself, "Why did they have children in the first place?"

People shouldn't be having five children whether they can afford it or not. WE (as the human race) can't afford it.

[Dalyn]

So again, why have children if you can't afford it? Doesn't hte family have to take responsibility for their actions as well? Its hard for me to get upset over this when you see a family of 5 struggling to survive and think to yourself, "Why did they have children in the first place?"

You do realize your argument boils down to, "You deserve your ****ty life because you were born into a ****ty family," right?

[thethe]

So that child should just be ****ed because his grandfather had more kids than he should've?

I'm talking about the current generation. The 18-35 year olds should not have children if they couldn't afford it. That is their decision. That is their fault if they are struggling to provide for them. Accountability has to also be attached to them.

[thethe]

You do realize your argument boils down to, "You deserve your ****ty life because you were born into a ****ty family," right?

No, my argument is that at some point you must be accountable for your actions. Any of those children can now make better decisions in their lives as they get older instead of repeating the mistakes of their parents. I don't think its an easy road for them to say the least but it can't just be about that the system is continually holding them back without any chance for a better life. At some point the string of bad decisions has to end.

[Dalyn]

I'm talking about the current generation. The 18-35 year olds should not have children if they couldn't afford it. That is their decision. That is their fault if they are struggling to provide for them. Accountability has to also be attached to them.

And I'm not talking about those people. I'm firmly in the camp of not having children period and especially not if you can't afford it. I'm talking about their children, or the 18-35 year olds who had chronically unemployed parents with too many children. The system is no longer there for them to climb out of that hole without help. It just isn't.

[thethe]

And I'm not talking about those people. I'm firmly in the camp of not having children period and especially not if you can't afford it. I'm talking about their children, or the 18-35 year olds who had chronically unemployed parents with too many children. The system is no longer there for them to climb out of that hole without help. It just isn't.

I'm not in the camp of removing entitlements entirely. I want a strict system that monitors what the money is being spent on and also what the recipients are doing with their lives to better themselves. The assistance in housing payments alone should allow the families to get jobs and provide the bear necessities so that hte next generation is bettered.

No, these people will not become rich but **** I'm not rich either. But, they cna get to a better place as long as one generation is willing to make the sacrifice.

[Krgrecw]

You do realize your argument boils down to, "You deserve your ****ty life because you were born into a ****ty family," right?



argument also says 'that our lives to be more ****ty because people can't handle thier own ****'


Which isn't fair to those of us that do the right things

[Dalyn]

And you know what that means? They're going to fight and fight until they throw in the towel because everyone in their life throws in the towel and they'll end up in jail or with too many children, and this will continue until the wealthy devourers eat down from the top and the poor devourers eat up from the bottom, and the whole thing will explode when they meet. All because we let a bunch of thieves steal from us and from our parents and from their parents.

[thethe]

And you know what that means? They're going to fight and fight until they throw in the towel because everyone in their life throws in the towel and they'll end up in jail or with too many children, and this will continue until the wealthy devourers eat down from the top and the poor devourers eat up from the bottom, and the whole thing will explode when they meet. All because we let a bunch of thieves steal from us and from our parents and from their parents.

There is no question there is a scheme above us all that limits our ceilings and true freedom as to how we want to live our lives. I am not disagreeing with that overarching point.

However, there is still wiggle room. This is not the Indian Caste system of yesteryear. The right decisions can be made to better your situation. Those that give up are giving into the system that you are vociferously trying to stop.

[Dalyn]

I'm not in the camp of removing entitlements entirely. I want a strict system that monitors what the money is being spent on and also what the recipients are doing with their lives to better themselves. The assistance in housing payments alone should allow the families to get jobs and provide the bear necessities so that hte next generation is bettered.

No, these people will not become rich but **** I'm not rich either. But, they cna get to a better place as long as one generation is willing to make the sacrifice.

And that generation for a LARGE majority of the poor has already come and gone.

Look at the facts. For the majority of people, the poor in this country have been poor for three generations. The middle class for three generations. The rich for three generations. Why do you think that happens? Because the system now works as hard as possible to keep you wherever you're lucky or unlucky enough to first arrive.

[thethe]

And that generation for a LARGE majority of the poor has already come and gone.

Look at the facts. For the majority of people, the poor in this country have been poor for three generations. The middle class for three generations. The rich for three generations. Why do you think that happens? Because the system now works as hard as possible to keep you wherever you're lucky or unlucky enough to first arrive.

If I wanted to work harder than I do now I could have risen classes from lower middle class to upper middle class. It is my decision and will be my decision in the future to work less and live more. I will be better off than my father but I am placing a self imposed ceiling based on what I desire in my life.

[Dalyn]

However, there is still wiggle room. This is not the Indian Caste system of yesteryear. The right decisions can be made to better your situation. Those that give up are giving into the system that you are vociferously trying to stop.

Even if you're right, you think the answer is to keep the system in place and hope we have enough poor people make it to the lower middle class to survive rather than fix the system and STOP the stealing? You are all about holding the poor accountable for wanting a family. For wanting more people to try make money to get them out of the **** they've been in their whole life. Hoping that if they have enough children the odds will eventually hit and they'll get the perfect hard working child who will succeed. Or maybe those children will just bring a little happiness into their **** life. But the rich who are stealing and creating this whole mess? Their accountability is second or third. Not that important. Let's focus on the poor, a problem we can't possibly fix without holding the thieves at the top accountable, but ignore that. Let's just keep hitting it.

[DirkPiggler]

It is no longer a system where as long as you aren't lazy or incompetent you can work hard and dig out of your birthright. Now it's a system where you can dig out of your birthright if your grandfather wasn't lazy or incompetent. If he was, you're pretty much ****ed unless someone with a better grandfather helps you out.

This is not true at all. I know several people who started out from a crappy background who have made it to at least upper middle class. Some have even bumped themselves into the vaunted 1% that the class warriors like to vilify. All started from nothing or even less, and through hard work, ambition, and being thrifty with their money have made very comfortable lives for themselves.

[thethe]

Even if you're right, you think the answer is to keep the system in place and hope we have enough poor people make it to the lower middle class to survive rather than fix the system and STOP the stealing? You are all about holding the poor accountable for wanting a family. For wanting more people to try make money to get them out of the **** they've been in their whole life. Hoping that if they have enough children the odds will eventually hit and they'll get the perfect hard working child who will succeed. Or maybe those children will just bring a little happiness into their **** life. But the rich who are stealing and creating this whole mess? Their accountability is second or third. Not that important. Let's focus on the poor, a problem we can't possibly fix without holding the thieves at the top accountable, but ignore that. Let's just keep hitting it.

I'm fine with discussing the thieves that you are talking about. I posted an article regarding high frequency traders and the abuse of employers in getting free overtime in the past year. Nobody seems to want to discuss those issues.

[Dalyn]

If I wanted to work harder than I do now I could have risen classes from lower middle class to upper middle class. It is my decision and will be my decision in the future to work less and live more. I will be better off than my father but I am placing a self imposed ceiling based on what I desire in my life.

Yes. Because the rungs from lower middle class to upper STILL EXIST. Your "self imposed ceiling" is expensive stuff like shiny TVs and new cars. The poor should make theirs what? Children, obviously. None of those. Food? Only if the government isn't giving you more than the bare minimum. Clothes? Only if you get them from Goodwill. Education? Only as much as you need to flip a ****ing burger.

[thethe]

This is not true at all. I know several people who started out from a crappy background who have made it to at least upper middle class. Some have even bumped themselves into the vaunted 1% that the class warriors like to vilify. All started from nothing or even less, and through hard work, ambition, and being thrifty with their money have made very comfortable lives for themselves.

I will always believe that anyone can make the right choices and better their lives. Free education at fine institutions are available to the poor as long as they work hard and get there. And once you are at college you can do enough to distinguish yourself and get a great job.

[Dalyn]

This is not true at all. I know several people who started out from a crappy background who have made it to at least upper middle class. Some have even bumped themselves into the vaunted 1% that the class warriors like to vilify. All started from nothing or even less, and through hard work, ambition, and being thrifty with their money have made very comfortable lives for themselves.

That's called an exception to the rule. And I bet it happened before the banks destroyed the bottom rungs.

[DirkPiggler]

I will always believe that anyone can make the right choices and better their lives. Free education at fine institutions are available to the poor as long as they work hard and get there. And once you are at college you can do enough to distinguish yourself and get a great job.

You don't even have to have a college education to do it. Most of the ones I know either don't have a degree, or have one and never used it for a job. Some got the degree while they were working their way up at a less than desirable job.

The current entitlement system does more to take away the ambition of the current generation of poor than any CEO or wall street criminal has done or ever will do. It doesn't need to be eliminated, but it needs to be reformed to remove the disincentive towards work.

[Dalyn]

I will always believe that anyone can make the right choices and better their lives. Free education at fine institutions are available to the poor as long as they work hard and get there. And once you are at college you can do enough to distinguish yourself and get a great job.

I don't know what to say. It's amazing how people stick to this reality when it is no longer the case. Things have changed. Go to Detroit and find a two-year-old and explain these things to him and tell him to give you a call when he's out of college and has a great job. Or go to Skid Row and find a fourteen-year-old prostitute hooked on heroin that her mother injected into her before selling her to men since she was eight. Give her your spiel about hard work and right choices and better lives.

[DirkPiggler]

That's called an exception to the rule. And I bet it happened before the banks destroyed the bottom rungs.

You keep saying this. Please give some examples of how the banks destroyed the bottom rungs. Specifics please.

And by the way, most of the ones I know happened fairly recently (last ten years or so). Some are in the process of building themselves up today, and haven't gotten there yet but will soon if they continue to work hard and smartly.

[thethe]

I don't know what to say. It's amazing how people stick to this reality when it is no longer the case. Things have changed. Go to Detroit and find a two-year-old and explain these things to him and tell him to give you a call when he's out of college and has a great job. Or go to Skid Row and find a fourteen-year-old prostitute hooked on heroin that her mother injected into her before selling her to men since she was eight. Give her your spiel about hard work and right choices and better lives.

So is that the systems fault or is it those parents fault that don't pass down the right lessons?

[Dalyn]

You keep saying this. Please give some examples of how the banks destroyed the bottom rungs. Specifics please.

And by the way, most of the ones I know happened fairly recently (last ten years or so). Some are in the process of building themselves up today, and haven't gotten there yet but will soon if they continue to work hard and smartly.

They sold the idea to two generations that they could afford these loans and these rates, and they were full of **** and were just making money for as long as possible until it all collapsed. They destroyed a whole generation of poor people trying to climb the ladder into lower middle class by lying and stealing from them. They exploited human nature for their own gain, and a new generation is starting to foot the bill.

[thethe]

You don't even have to have a college education to do it. Most of the ones I know either don't have a degree, or have one and never used it for a job. Some got the degree while they were working their way up at a less than desirable job.

The current entitlement system does more to take away the ambition of the current generation of poor than any CEO or wall street criminal has done or ever will do. It doesn't need to be eliminated, but it needs to be reformed to remove the disincentive towards work.

No, you definitely don't need a college degree but I think its the safest way to go as long as you get the right degree. These huge companies hire right out of college to those students the perform the best in their class. Go get a free education and get a 4.0 and I guarantee that you will get a good job and get out of poverty.

[thethe]

They sold the idea to two generations that they could afford these loans and these rates, and they were full of **** and were just making money for as long as possible until it all collapsed. They destroyed a whole generation of poor people trying to climb the ladder into lower middle class by lying and stealing from them. They exploited human nature for their own gain, and a new generation is starting to foot the bill.

It was awful what was done on both sides of the table in these situations. The blame cannot be lifted from either side though.

[Dalyn]

So is that the systems fault or is it those parents fault that don't pass down the right lessons?

You have got to be ****ing kidding me. You call a mother injecting heroin into an eight year old not passing down the right lessons? Talk about the understatement of the year. But that's okay. It's not the mother's fault. It's the child's fault. Let them pay for it. Don't help. Hard work is what they need.

[Dalyn]

It was awful what was done on both sides of the table in these situations. The blame cannot be lifted from either side though.

But Billy Bob didn't take the loan. His dumbass father did. Why should Billy Bob pay for it with his life? That's what you seem incapable of understanding.

[thethe]

You have got to be ****ing kidding me. You call a mother injecting heroin into an eight year old not passing down the right lessons? Talk about the understatement of the year. But that's okay. It's not the mother's fault. It's the child's fault. Let them pay for it. Don't help. Hard work is what they need.

And just like you have responded to Dirks point there are always exceptions to the rule. How many instances do you think exist as you've outlined above? Both sides are using extreme hyperbole to get their points across and it negatively impacts arriving at a solution.

[thethe]

But Billy Bob didn't take the loan. His dumbass father did. Why should Billy Bob pay for it with his life? That's what you seem incapable of understanding.

Billy Bob is still eligible for free schooling if he wants. Billy bob can still get a bull**** bank job and work his way up if he wants. I don't want to insult you by saying you are incapable of understanding that. I just don't think you want to.

[Dalyn]

I have to go, but my argument boils down to, "A person should be held accountable for their own actions. Their child or grandchild should not."

[Dalyn]

Billy Bob is still eligible for free schooling if he wants. Billy bob can still get a bull**** bank job and work his way up if he wants. I don't want to insult you by saying you are incapable of understanding that. I just don't think you want to.

Sorry if you took that as an insult. I didn't mean it as one. I just think you have a blind spot. It's what the wealthy stealing from the top count on.

[Dalyn]

And just like you have responded to Dirks point there are always exceptions to the rule. How many instances do you think exist as you've outlined above? Both sides are using extreme hyperbole to get their points across and it negatively impacts arriving at a solution.

It seems like the extreme cases are the only way to get people to notice. This might not happen often, but it's happening enough and LONG enough to have created a mess at the bottom that is almost impossible to get out of without help.

[thethe]

Sorry if you took that as an insult. I didn't mean it as one. I just think you have a blind spot. It's what the wealthy stealing from the top count on.

I understand what you are saying. I just want to make sure that things are always civil between us. You're a good dude.

[DirkPiggler]

They sold the idea to two generations that they could afford these loans and these rates, and they were full of **** and were just making money for as long as possible until it all collapsed. They destroyed a whole generation of poor people trying to climb the ladder into lower middle class by lying and stealing from them. They exploited human nature for their own gain, and a new generation is starting to foot the bill.

Sorry, but that's a talking point at best and a cop out at worst. The middle class was hit harder than the poor by the things you mentioned. Either that or we're defining the classes in different ways.

The people who are living off of entitlements weren't destroyed by the housing crisis. They weren't getting subprime loans to buy homes, nor did they lose substantial retirement accounts based on those loans.

I agree that people of the lower and middle classes have been enticed into buying things they can't afford by greedy financiers. But there have always been payday lenders, rent-to-own furniture stores, and tax return lenders who have taken advantage of the fact that poor people want nice things but can't afford them on their own. And would you not agree that lenders wouldn't be supplying these loans if there wasn't a demand for them?

It all boils down to people wanting to live above their means, and wanting the trappings of success without the effort that is normally required to get those things. Which goes back to the erosion of the work ethic, which has its roots to some degree in our entitlement culture.

If you want to talk about the rich elites doing something to totally screw the lower classes, the biggest and most damaging example is the Great Society program itself. I used to think that was a well-intentioned plan that just failed miserably. The older I get and the more I learn, I believe it was part of a plan to keep a certain segment of society in submission. The worst thing you can take from a man is hope. The second worse thing is his work ethic.

[Dalyn]

I understand what you are saying. I just want to make sure that things are always civil between us. You're a good dude.

Yeah. Sorry about that. Any anger that bled through was directed toward the situation, not you or anyone else here.

[DirkPiggler]

I have to go, but my argument boils down to, "A person should be held accountable for their own actions. Their child or grandchild should not."

That's a fair point, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Where we differ I think is in the manner of solving the problem. I don't see that 14 year old drug addicted prostitute being helped by the current system.

Entitlements should give the people who have been kicked in the nuts by society and who haven't had positive influences a means to learn the right way to do things, in addition to financial assistance during the learning process. Blindly handing out checks does not accomplish that. All it does is perpetuate the cycle.

[Dalyn]

That's a fair point, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Where we differ I think is in the manner of solving the problem. I don't see that 14 year old drug addicted prostitute being helped by the current system.

Entitlements should give the people who have been kicked in the nuts by society and who haven't had positive influences a means to learn the right way to do things, in addition to financial assistance during the learning process. Blindly handing out checks does not accomplish that. All it does is perpetuate the cycle.

Oh, the current system sucks. It doesn't help anyone but the wealthy. That's my point. I'm not arguing for it, but against it.

[thethe]

Yeah. Sorry about that. Any anger that bled through was directed toward the situation, not you or anyone else here.

I know. I just like to lower the intensity when it seems to rise to a point where people say things they regret. I learned my lesson from the Fergueson thread where I said some things I wish I could take back.

[57Brave]

That's a fair point, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Where we differ I think is in the manner of solving the problem. I don't see that 14 year old drug addicted prostitute being helped by the current system.

Entitlements should give the people who have been kicked in the nuts by society and who haven't had positive influences a means to learn the right way to do things, in addition to financial assistance during the learning process. Blindly handing out checks does not accomplish that. All it does is perpetuate the cycle.

"blindly" !!
can you back that up ??

[DirkPiggler]

"blindly" !!
can you back that up ??

Sure. How many examples of able bodied people whose only limitation on being able to work is their own lack of ambition do you need?

[57Brave]

statistics - data -- percentages --

situations
A person receive gov assistance in Detroit is far different than a person receiving assistance in a boom state like North Dakota

Qualifications to receive assistance -- do you know them before you tell us people are "blindly" getting hand outs

How many ? But this issue like most other life issues is a little more nuanced than you seem to understand


After pages of explanation do you understand why there is assistance / safety net and would you agree this country would look like Haiti / Somalia without it?

Agree or disagree ---- why ?

How does one quantify "ambition" ???

[Dalyn]

http://news.artnet.com/in-brief/billionaire-william-louis-dreyfus-gifts-50-million-art-collection-to-harlem-kids-273333/

"Barrons reports that Louis-Dreyfus made the decision to donate the proceeds from his collection to the Harlem Children's Zone after watching a segment about the nonprofit on 60 Minutes. It explained the organization's innovative "cradle to college" approach to breaking the cycle of generational poverty, which struck a chord with Louis-Dreyfus."

[DirkPiggler]

statistics - data -- percentages --

situations
A person receive gov assistance in Detroit is far different than a person receiving assistance in a boom state like North Dakota

Why? Either you're poor or your not.



Qualifications to receive assistance -- do you know them before you tell us people are "blindly" getting hand outs

I have an idea. And I see plenty of able bodied, able minded people who aren't working.



How many ? But this issue like most other life issues is a little more nuanced than you seem to understand

I'll put my understanding of the issue up against anyone here, or anywhere else.



After pages of explanation do you understand why there is assistance / safety net and would you agree this country would look like Haiti / Somalia without it?

Agree or disagree ---- why ?

If you'd read the rest of my posts you'd already have the answer to this. We need a safety net. We don't need that safety net to be a way of life, which it is for many recipients.



How does one quantify "ambition" ???

I know it when I see it. It's not hard to distinguish the people who are doing things right and those who are gaming the system. Ambition alone won't get you anything, but ambition combined with a work ethic will work for anyone. Even if you don't have ambition, you can make a nice life for yourself just by having a good work ethic.

Before you ask me how to quantify "work ethic", here are examples I see every day of people who do not have one.

1. No show/ no call.
2. Taking off work for a full day for a doctor's appointment, to get your driver's license renewed, or other routine tasks that others fit into their work schedule with minimal time off.
3. Not showing up for work the day (or several days as the case may be) after payday.
4. Showing up for work under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
5. Stealing from your employer or their clients.

The sad thing is, most of these things could be taught very easily. Many people don't understand that it's not okay to do the things I listed above (which gets back to the generational poverty thing - no positive role models). I'd like to see some "how to get and keep a job" training implemented as a condition of receiving any aid.

[sturg33]

Oh, okay. That's not community service then, which is what Sturg suggested.

You think doing community service in exchange for money to buy food is slave labor?

[Dalyn]

You think doing community service in exchange for money to buy food is slave labor?

All things considered in your proposal, absolutely. Where do you think the money for unemployment comes from?

[57Brave]

Why? Either you're poor or your not.



I have an idea. And I see plenty of able bodied, able minded people who aren't working.



I'll put my understanding of the issue up against anyone here, or anywhere else.



If you'd read the rest of my posts you'd already have the answer to this. We need a safety net. We don't need that safety net to be a way of life, which it is for many recipients.



I know it when I see it. It's not hard to distinguish the people who are doing things right and those who are gaming the system. Ambition alone won't get you anything, but ambition combined with a work ethic will work for anyone. Even if you don't have ambition, you can make a nice life for yourself just by having a good work ethic.

Before you ask me how to quantify "work ethic", here are examples I see every day of people who do not have one.

1. No show/ no call.
2. Taking off work for a full day for a doctor's appointment, to get your driver's license renewed, or other routine tasks that others fit into their work schedule with minimal time off.
3. Not showing up for work the day (or several days as the case may be) after payday.
4. Showing up for work under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
5. Stealing from your employer or their clients.

The sad thing is, most of these things could be taught very easily. Many people don't understand that it's not okay to do the things I listed above (which gets back to the generational poverty thing - no positive role models). I'd like to see some "how to get and keep a job" training implemented as a condition of receiving any aid.


Your points are as absurd as opening an umbrella simply because you see a cloud .

The "I know it when I see it " meme is held up to mockery