What is (or do you have) your own personal "limit" in regards to statistics?

[Mrs. Meta]

Just another thang that's been on my mind lately. For instance, I definitely used to put more stock into batting average than I do now. However, I really never was a part of the scout or stat debate - just didn't really have enough knowledge either way.

Right now, I'm just sorta beginning to discover the endless cycle of enjoyment that BABIP can be. As for other stats, OPS is probably what I look at the most these days - with a cursory glance to WAR.

Anyway, in just doing some quick googling of Sabermetrics, I was kinda overwhelmed at the amount of statistical measurement in baseball (this coming from someone who took more than his fair share of stats in college :cooter:).

So yeah, the topic...do you guys (even and especially the more statistically-inclinded of you) have any sorta limit (or stopping point) for yourselves in regards to these wondrous (and bounteous) statistics? :cooter:

[MadduxFanII]

I still pay far more attention to ERA than I should. I was never enamored of wins, so it didn't make me long to discard them, but pitcher ERA...I wish I could quit you.

[Heyward]

W/L is the dumbest stat in baseball.

ERA, FIP, WHIP, K/BB, and other stats I use more for pitchers.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I'm a traditionalist. I still look at AVG, HR, RBI, and runs scored first. Then I'll look at things like OBP and SLG. (OPS)

I don't pay any attention to things like WAR, UZR, or any of the other advanced stats. I've started to ignore BABIP and LD % as well, I'd rather just watch a guy hit not let stats tell me how a guy is hitting. I'm sure I'll be criticized by saying I'm limiting myself but I don't need to know that stuff to enjoy the game. I think you can get bogged down with too many stats.

For pitching I look at ERA, WHIP, and K/BB ratio.

[yeezus]

I'm a traditionalist. I still look at AVG, HR, RBI, and runs scored first. Then I'll look at things like OBP and SLG. (OPS)

I don't pay any attention to things like WAR, UZR, or any of the other advanced stats. I've started to ignore BABIP and LD % as well, I'd rather just watch a guy hit not let stats tell me how a guy is hitting. I'm sure I'll be criticized by saying I'm limiting myself but I don't need to know that stuff to enjoy the game. I think you can get bogged down with too many stats.

For pitching I look at ERA, WHIP, and K/BB ratio.

I don't blame you for not looking at those things. I don't get too into it because I just feel it's too much sometimes. However, it's hard to debate things without looking at advanced stats, IMO. They are not concrete or 100% but they give pretty good indicators a lot of the time. Certainly more than things like RBI and AVG do.

[yeezus]

And defensive stats, IMO, should be taken with a grain of salt right now.
I was just out of curiosity looking at A-Rod's career stats on fangraphs. They have him at +16 in 2000 in fielding and -9 in 2001. Was he THAT much worse in 2001 than 2000? I doubt it.

[Gary82]

I prefer wOBA over OPS, and I like Isolated Power (ISO.)

Pitching wise, I always start with ERA and compare it to FIP. Then, K/9 and BB/9.

[sentenza]

In baseball there are too many stats and rules!
That's why this sport will never make it europe! (except the netherlands)

I'm interested in baseball since 1991, but i don't know a lot of these stats, not what they stand for, not what the short cuts mean!
and I see new things und rules for the first time so often!

[tiger2vette2]

I'm one of those who agrees with the importance of advanced stats in assessing players, but doesn't claim to fully understand them or really care about them for my own enjoyment of the game. Pitcher wins are stupid. For batters, I look primarily at OPS, but I give weight to BA too. For pitchers, I like ERAs as a quick indicator, but I look at WHIP and K/9 too.

[jpx7]

Those damn Dutch plunking love statistics.

[TXBravesFan]

I draw the line at LOB (love of baseball) %

[Gary82]

I draw the line at LOB (love of baseball) %

.........



.....


....


...Heyward needs to work on his LOB

[Carp]

I hate WAR, both pitching and offense, though I can somewhat tolerate offensive WAR. I dislike it mainly because a lot of people refuse to acknowledge the inconsistencies in it.

But there is no other stat I hate more than FIP. It's almost completely useless to me.

Offensively, I prefer OPS and OPS+ as a quick look. I don't know that much about wOBA other than it tends to reward offenses players with higher OBP's, which I actually don't have a problem with.

Pitching wise, I am still a sucker for ERA and ERA+ as a quick look, but I pay quick attention to sub stats like K/9, WHIP, and HR/9 to see if the ERA actually holds up.

[zitothebrave]

JMO

Best stat for judging offensive performance per PA - wRC+

Best offensive stat for judging value - wRAA

Best judge for defense with proper sampling - UZR/150

Best pitching stats - FIP- ERA- and SIERA (SIERA is kinda my favorite right now)

Worst stat for judging offensive value - RBI and Runs as they're products of the guys around you.

Worst stat for judging pitchign - Wins and losses with blown saves and saves.

Worst stat for judging defense - Fielding Percentage

Now don't get me wrong, those worst stats all tell things, things that aren't irrelevant, but that aren't indicative of true ability

[chipchildress]

If Freddie wasn't such a good hitter, his RBI total wouldn't be so high. I know everybody hates RBI and it doesn't tell the complete story, but come on. You can't suck and still knock in 100 guys in a season.

[thewupk]

If Freddie wasn't such a good hitter, his RBI total wouldn't be so high. I know everybody hates RBI and it doesn't tell the complete story, but come on. You can't suck and still knock in 100 guys in a season.

Francoeur had 100 rbi in 2006 and was pretty awful.

[zitothebrave]

If Freddie wasn't such a good hitter, his RBI total wouldn't be so high. I know everybody hates RBI and it doesn't tell the complete story, but come on. You can't suck and still knock in 100 guys in a season.

And you can be great and not knock in 100.

Perfect example was when Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins won their MVPs, Chase Utley was the better player but he didn't have the runs scored or RBIs.

Brandon Phillips is a perfect counter argument, he's sitting at 6th in baseball in RBIs, but has worse offensive stats than anyone not named BJ Upton or Andrelton Simmons on our team.

As I said, RBIs tell a stat, and it's not totally irrelevant, it's not indicative of true abilities. FOr exampel, if Miggy only had like 50 RBIs, he'd still be the best hitter in baseball. Another example is in less PA Gattis has more RBIs than Chris Johnson. JOhnson has been the superior hitter.

[thethe]

Any offensive/pitching stats are interesting and worthwhile. Any stat where a large degree of subjective bias comes into play (Defensive Stats) is when I draw the line in taking them as the gospel. Won't stop me from looking at them because I think it helps in evaluation but its not the end all.

[gilesfan]

I hate WAR, both pitching and offense, though I can somewhat tolerate offensive WAR. I dislike it mainly because a lot of people refuse to acknowledge the inconsistencies in it.

But there is no other stat I hate more than FIP. It's almost completely useless to me.

Offensively, I prefer OPS and OPS+ as a quick look. I don't know that much about wOBA other than it tends to reward offenses players with higher OBP's, which I actually don't have a problem with.

Pitching wise, I am still a sucker for ERA and ERA+ as a quick look, but I pay quick attention to sub stats like K/9, WHIP, and HR/9 to see if the ERA actually holds up.

Carpe hates war, but looks at K/9, BB/9, HR/9. Makes sense.

[Orphan Black]

For pitchers I like WHIP, and K/9.

For hitters I tend to OPS and OPS+ and OBP.

I don't care for any defensive stats. Could be why I believe Chris Johnson has been adequate defensively since I only go by what I've seen of him this season.

[chipchildress]

Francoeur had 100 rbi in 2006 and was pretty awful.

he must have been doing something right though. OPS notwithstanding.

how do you calculate hitting a ground ball to score a run into the equation of whether a guy is good or not? honest question here. is there a stat for that besides RBI? i'd be curious if people thought situational RBI stats might be more relevant. surely there is still such thing as situational hitting that might matter... and yes, i know that frenchy probably isn't the best example for this kind of thing.

[thethe]

I am leaning away from the importance of the RBI somewhat but I do believe sabermetricians fail to understand that these are human beings and not robots. Pitchers pitch differently with runners in scoring position.

[gilesfan]

Hack had 298 PAs with runners on base and 190 with runners in scoring position that year. He was actually respectful in those situations.

[yeezus]

I am leaning away from the importance of the RBI somewhat but I do believe sabermetricians fail to understand that these are human beings and not robots. Pitchers pitch differently with runners in scoring position.

And hitters hit differently with RISP. I'm with you, not saying RBI is a great stat by any means, but it's not purely luck or circumstance.

[thethe]

I know I will get ridiculed for this but I am going to say it anyway.

First off, Francouer was never going to be a good major leaguer. We also know that he was highly sensitive and didn't react to negative situations well. I really believe that he allowed the sabermetric criticism to get into his head and tried to change who he was. Francouer should have always just been the guy who "gripped it and ripped it". Again, he would have never been a good major league player but I do believe that he would have had a better career than he had.

[gilesfan]

I know I will get ridiculed for this but I am going to say it anyway.

First off, Francouer was never going to be a good major leaguer. We also know that he was highly sensitive and didn't react to negative situations well. I really believe that he allowed the sabermetric criticism to get into his head and tried to change who he was. Francouer should have always just been the guy who "gripped it and ripped it". Again, he would have never been a good major league player but I do believe that he would have had a better career than he had.

Francouers issues were as much if not more physical than mental. The dudes swing looked like Michael Jordan trying to play baseball. His swing was long and he has to commit to a swing well before he can determine what type of pitch is being thrown.

[thewupk]

he must have been doing something right though. OPS notwithstanding.

how do you calculate hitting a ground ball to score a run into the equation of whether a guy is good or not? honest question here. is there a stat for that besides RBI? i'd be curious if people thought situational RBI stats might be more relevant. surely there is still such thing as situational hitting that might matter... and yes, i know that frenchy probably isn't the best example for this kind of thing.

Well his teammates in front of him were really good so he had a ton of chances to drive in runs. And he actually hit ok with RISP. At the time many argued that this was a skill and he was just that good. Others argued it was a fluke and it would correct itself after he's been in the league for awhile. Which it has. Hitting well with RISP is not a skill. Some years you will hit better in that situation and some times you won't. Over time this evens out.

I'm not sure if there is a situational RBI stat or not. But you can look at a players splits with say a runner on 3rd and less than two outs to see if they shorten their swing to make contact to get the runner in or not.

[Bravesfan]

For hitters- OBP, OPS, Extra base hits, and WAR some what. I like the original raw numbers so I can decide how I feel about the hitter rather than advanced stats.

Pitchers- ERA, WHIP, FIP. Not sure if it's a stat but Pitches per inning seems like a big deal.

[50PoundHead]

I enjoy what I call "enhanced scouting" stats, which include things like ground ball (and ground out) percentages for pitchers and line-drive % for hitters. When it gets to the employment of multiple regression analysis, it loses me. I think one can determine what kind (and level) a player is by sorting through the the kinds of types of outs and at-bats a batter has and the kind of outs a pitcher generates.

[chopdrew]

I like obp. I think batting average is a flawed statistic, and I've been working w one of my own (i think) called damage indicator. I do total bases/(hits+walks). It's fairly inelastic, but its meant to show how close a player gets to scoring w every reach.

[GovClintonTyree]

Hitting: OBP, SLG, OPS (since way before they were cool). BB/PA, LD%. I like to add the net steals into TB to add value to the Judy hitters who run (Bourn, Pierre). Evens the playing field.

Pitching: BB/9, K/9, WHIP, HR/9, ERA, FIP

Fielding: Almost nothing. At this point, it's crap. Zito, don't bother to try.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Best pitching stats - FIP- ERA- and SIERA (SIERA is kinda my favorite right now)



What does Ruben Sierra know about pitching?

[chipchildress]

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=104&position=P&page=7&type=full

Always like looking at this when considering the implications of BABIP.

[Carp]

he must have been doing something right though. OPS notwithstanding.

how do you calculate hitting a ground ball to score a run into the equation of whether a guy is good or not? honest question here. is there a stat for that besides RBI? i'd be curious if people thought situational RBI stats might be more relevant. surely there is still such thing as situational hitting that might matter... and yes, i know that frenchy probably isn't the best example for this kind of thing.

The issue is, for any particluar hitter, it's such a rare occurence. To come up in that situation, with a man on 3rd and less than 2outs, the average hitter probably gets no more than 10-15 chances at that per yr.