The Amount of Talent the Braves Have Traded is Staggering

[sturg33]

Just thinking about the deals - it's nuts how much talent we've traded away. I'm not arguing the merits of whether we should, but boil it all down, and holy ****!

Jason Heyward
Justin Upton
Alex Wood
Craig Kimbrel
Evan Gattis
Jose Peraza


When you look at it, that's an unbelievable pool of talented that we've shipped out in less than 10 months.

Hope it works out for us

[gilesfan]

Most of the individual trades seem reasonable when you look at them. However, when you look at the return of the players sent over for that list, it's pretty underwhelming, unfortunately.

[thethe]

The only trade that seems underwhelming is Gattis and that might be a reflection of what baseball felt his true value was.

[sturg33]

The only trade that seems underwhelming is Gattis and that might be a reflection of what baseball felt his true value was.

You really wouldn't classify the Alex Wood trade as "underwhelming?"

[thethe]

You really wouldn't classify the Alex Wood trade as "underwhelming?"

I have no way of knowing yet. Have you seen Olivera play? Who is that draft pick going to be?

[Preacher]

Also a staggering amount of potential talent brought over by those trades

Shelby
Jace
ManBan
Jenkins
Fried
Olivera
Ruiz
Thurman
Peterson
Touki
Bird
Viz
3 top 75 draft picks - one of which was used on Riley
Gant
Whalen
Withrow
Wisler
Folty
Maybin
Sanchez
Mallex
Plus the release of BJ's salary

Not saying its going to work out or not -- but holy s*** that's a lot of potential talent coming back

[UNCBlue012]

Also a staggering amount of potential talent brought over by those trades

Shelby
Jace
ManBan
Jenkins
Fried
Olivera
Ruiz
Thurman
Peterson
Touki
Bird
Viz
3 top 75 draft picks - one of which was used on Riley
Gant
Whalen
Withrow
Wisler
Folty
Maybin
Sanchez
Mallex
Plus the release of BJ's salary

Not saying its going to work out or not -- but holy s*** that's a lot of potential talent coming back

Thank you. I did not want to list it all. It works from both sides!

[sturg33]

Also a staggering amount of potential talent brought over by those trades

Shelby
Jace
ManBan
Jenkins
Fried
Olivera
Ruiz
Thurman
Peterson
Touki
Bird
Viz
3 top 75 draft picks - one of which was used on Riley
Gant
Whalen
Withrow
Wisler
Folty
Maybin
Sanchez
Mallex
Plus the release of BJ's salary

Not saying its going to work out or not -- but holy s*** that's a lot of potential talent coming back

Again, nobody's arguing that. I'm just making a point that I can't remember a team who has traded away so much young talent in such a quick amount of time

[gilesfan]

Also a staggering amount of potential talent brought over by those trades

Shelby
Jace
ManBan
Jenkins
Fried
Olivera
Ruiz
Thurman
Peterson
Touki
Bird
Viz
3 top 75 draft picks - one of which was used on Riley
Gant
Whalen
Withrow
Wisler
Folty
Maybin
Sanchez
Mallex
Plus the release of BJ's salary

Not saying its going to work out or not -- but holy s*** that's a lot of potential talent coming back

Some of these were trades for different players, not the ones listed by the OP.

There are certainly some talented players on that list; some will make it, some won't. But, a few guys on that list are 40 FV prospects or below.

[Preacher]

Some of these were trades for different players, not the ones listed by the OP.

There are certainly some talented players on that list; some will make it, some won't. But, a few guys on that list are 40 FV prospects or below.

And a few guys that we traded away were guys like Phil Gosselin and BJ Upton.

[Enscheff]

Again, nobody's arguing that. I'm just making a point that I can't remember a team who has traded away so much young talent in such a quick amount of time

Bull****. You started a thread listing only the players traded away (while also conveniently leaving out key points like it being JUp's and Heyward's walk year, and the fact Gattis was a DH trying to play in the NL, and the unloading of major dead weight money in BJ) expressly to start another bitchfest about the rebuild.

Oh, and the farm system went from bottom 5 to top 5 in that same stretch, the very definition of young talent. You forgot that small point as well.

[Preacher]

Again, nobody's arguing that. I'm just making a point that I can't remember a team who has traded away so much young talent in such a quick amount of time

I was making an additional point that I can't really remember a team acquiring so much young controllable talent in such a quick amount of time. Its crazy either way.

[sturg33]

Bull****. You started a thread listing only the players traded away (while also conveniently leaving out key points like it being JUp's and Heyward's walk year, and the fact Gattis was a DH trying to play in the NL, and the unloading of major dead weight money in BJ) expressly to start another bitchfest about the rebuild.

Calm down there guy.

I started a thread because it's a massive amount amount of talent we traded away. We got a lot back (i would certainly hope). The question, can anyone think of another team who's done something like this, and if so, was it successful?

[striker42]

Fried is a huge key to all this. If he busts then our return looks much worse. If he hits and becomes the next Cole Hamels, we look awesome. It's so easy to forget about him since we haven't seen him pitch.

I do wish we had dealt Maybin. I think he's starting to lose whatever magic he had the first half of the year. I would like to have seen us pick up a nice prospect and clear that salary.

I'll also be interested in seeing what we use the payroll flexibility on. Having money to spend on other pieces is very important.

[gilesfan]

I was making an additional point that I can't really remember a team acquiring so much young controllable talent in such a quick amount of time. Its crazy either way.

Likely unparalleled.

[keithlaw]

Calm down there guy.

I started a thread because it's a massive amount amount of talent we traded away. We got a lot back (i would certainly hope). The question, can anyone think of another team who's done something like this, and if so, was it successful?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elRxbGJuCw8

[Enscheff]

Marlins do it all the time.

[nsacpi]

Marlins do it all the time.yup. Ultimately we will able to judge the rebuild to how quickly we return to being a sustainably competitive team. Right now it doesn't look like that will happen until the current crop of guys in the rookie leagues mature.

[smootness]

There's no doubt we traded away a crap ton of talent. But unprecedented? Absolutely not. Here's who the Marlins traded away after 1997:

Kevin Brown
Gary Sheffield
Moises Alou
Jeff Conine
Al Leiter
Edgar Renteria
Bobby Bonilla
Charles Johnson
Robb Nen

If you think our list is comparable to theirs, you're insane. They won another WS 5 years later.

But yes, we did trade away a lot of talent. And people are ripping the Padres because they didn't just trade away a ton of talent. In hindsight, the bigger indictment is that we win just 79 games with that talent last year, not that we traded it away.

[smootness]

Also, it will be hard to judge the return until we see everything that comes to fruition. For example, there's a chance that trading Heyward led to also trading Kimbrel, and by dumping BJ in the Kimbrel trade, it allows us to go get Heyward back, which wouldn't have been possible had we not first traded him.

[sturg33]

The Marlins are a good example. I don't know if what they did was successful or not. They did win another WS in 03. But as far as I remember, that was the only time they made the playoffs since 97.

[Chipper]

It's been said many times before, but its amazing that with all of the talent traded, and for a team that desperately needs offense, we couldn't get a top offensive prospect.

[yeezus]

It's been said many times before, but its amazing that with all of the talent traded, and for a team that desperately needs offense, we couldn't get a top offensive prospect.

Teams just don't trade guys like Schwarber, Correa, and Seager. Factor in that we traded two guys who were going to be FAs after this season, and it's not a huge surprise. No one would give us a top hitting prospect for either of them. Alex Wood wouldn't even get us that kind of guy, or even a guy like Soler.

[sturg33]

Teams just don't trade guys like Schwarber, Correa, and Seager. Factor in that we traded two guys who were going to be FAs after this season, and it's not a huge surprise. No one would give us a top hitting prospect for either of them. Alex Wood wouldn't even get us that kind of guy, or even a guy like Soler.

I think that's debatable. I think Hart fell in love with the guy and Friedman took advantage

[Dalyn]

I think that's debatable. I think Hart fell in love with the guy and Friedman took advantage

I do think this is true to a point. Probably not as much as you think, but at the very least I think Hart wanted Olivera and didn't test the waters with Wood once Friedman brought him up. It was always about Olivera.

[Tapate50]

Unfortunately - right now- none of those acquired prospects has the look and feel of a superstar. We have gathered a ton of B+ talent and that's a great thing to build a comprehensively solid roster, but we are going to need something above solid at a few positions and catcher and ss look to hold few answers with the bats so we are going to need above average somewhere else other than 1B.

If we hadn't gotten Olivera who I think will be an above average bat, I'd have moved Alex Wood and Peraza for Longoria but I doubt Tampa would have bitten.

[Tapate50]

I do think this is true to a point. Probably not as much as you think, but at the very least I think Hart wanted Olivera and didn't test the waters with Wood once Friedman brought him up. It was always about Olivera on the cheap.

Pretty much my thoughts as amended. The salary commitment is a huge part of why they made that move.

[Russ2dollas]

A lot of young, too end talent gone. I don't see young top end talent back.

In a lot of ways we are older. And guys who are top end talents are either folty or injured.

I think the problem with the first post is that it ignores the heyward and upton were 1 year guys with expected extension pricing out at least 2/3 of baseball .

Wood deal is underwhelming big time for me. Maybe woods value isn't what I think it is.

[smootness]

Unfortunately - right now- none of those acquired prospects has the look and feel of a superstar. We have gathered a ton of B+ talent and that's a great thing to build a comprehensively solid roster, but we are going to need something above solid at a few positions and catcher and ss look to hold few answers with the bats so we are going to need above average somewhere else other than 1B.

If we hadn't gotten Olivera who I think will be an above average bat, I'd have moved Alex Wood and Peraza for Longoria but I doubt Tampa would have bitten.

Sure, but none of the guys we traded are superstars, either. Heyward is the closest one, but he has yet to get to that level.

In terms of WAR, the 5 major league pieces we traded have combined for about 9 WAR this year...puts it into a different perspective. On the other hand, just the major league pieces we got back in those trades have combined for about 4.5 WAR this year.

Given the fact that the best talent we gave up was gone in a year, Gattis didn't really have a clear position, and a vast majority of the talent hasn't played in the majors yet, that puts a different spin on the trades for sure.

And you can't fully compare what we did to what the Marlins did. They traded all their talent and got pretty much solely very low minors prospects in return. To do what they did, we would have also traded Freeman, Simmons, and Teheran, and we wouldn't have gotten Shelby Miller in return.

[yeezus]

Justin is in an insanely long, insanely unproductive slump right now.

June: .196, 2 HRs (5 XBH), .608 OPS
July: .162, 4 HRs, no 2Bs (4 XBH), .551 OPS
August: .182, 0 HR (1XBH), .440 OPS

these cold streaks are a killer. it's one thing to be up-and-down, and it's another to be the worst hitter in the league for weeks at a time, and in this case, months. he struck out 4 times the other night in 12 pitches.

he could get insanely hot again, as we've all seen him do. but these streaks are just killer.

[yeezus]

Why are we so terrible at stealing bases, by the way? this has been the case for a long time now. Justin had 16 SBs and 5 CS his two years here. He's at 17 and 1 in SD this year.

[Tapate50]

Justin is in an insanely long, insanely unproductive slump right now.

June: .196, 2 HRs (5 XBH), .608 OPS
July: .162, 4 HRs, no 2Bs (4 XBH), .551 OPS
August: .182, 0 HR (1XBH), .440 OPS

these cold streaks are a killer. it's one thing to be up-and-down, and it's another to be the worst hitter in the league for weeks at a time, and in this case, months. he struck out 4 times the other night in 12 pitches.

he could get insanely hot again, as we've all seen him do. but these streaks are just killer.

He needs to just set his calendar to April and May over and over again.

[Tapate50]

Why are we so terrible at stealing bases, by the way? this has been the case for a long time now. Justin had 16 SBs and 5 CS his two years here. He's at 17 and 1 in SD this year.

ALWAYS have been... even legit league leading SB threats don't come here and flourish often.

[Dalyn]

Why are we so terrible at stealing bases, by the way? this has been the case for a long time now. Justin had 16 SBs and 5 CS his two years here. He's at 17 and 1 in SD this year.

It has been a problem for so long. When we basically said we wanted speed and contact in the future, this was my biggest concern. According to Fangraphs, our baserunning from 91 to present is -43.8, #23 out of 30.

[smootness]

ALWAYS have been... even legit league leading SB threats don't come here and flourish often.

Yep, look at Lofton's year here. Bourn's numbers came down, though based on what he's done in Cleveland, it doesn't look bad.

Just speculation, but I'm guessing part of it is because we don't give guys a constant green light like some teams do. Great base stealers know when to go better than coaches do. Coaches base it on situation; great base stealers base it on the pitcher.

[yeezus]

It has been a problem for so long. When we basically said we wanted speed and contact in the future, this was my biggest concern. According to Fangraphs, our baserunning from 91 to present is -43.8, #23 out of 30.

I'm surprised it's not worse. I wonder what it's like the last 10 years?

[smootness]

Justin is in an insanely long, insanely unproductive slump right now.

June: .196, 2 HRs (5 XBH), .608 OPS
July: .162, 4 HRs, no 2Bs (4 XBH), .551 OPS
August: .182, 0 HR (1XBH), .440 OPS

these cold streaks are a killer. it's one thing to be up-and-down, and it's another to be the worst hitter in the league for weeks at a time, and in this case, months. he struck out 4 times the other night in 12 pitches.

he could get insanely hot again, as we've all seen him do. but these streaks are just killer.

That's BJ-level and will significantly hurt him on the market. Do not want.

[nsacpi]

Teams just don't trade guys like Schwarber, Correa, and Seager. Factor in that we traded two guys who were going to be FAs after this season, and it's not a huge surprise. No one would give us a top hitting prospect for either of them. Alex Wood wouldn't even get us that kind of guy, or even a guy like Soler.

Yup. Hard to dislodge good hitters from other teams.

[yeezus]

Yup. Hard to dislodge good hitters from other teams.

*hard to dislodge good hitters from other teams when they're super young, studs, and have years of cheap control left. we did not do that. we did not trade schwarber or correa. you're comparing what we did to trading correa or bryant, and that's just really silly.

[Dalyn]

I'm surprised it's not worse. I wonder what it's like the last 10 years?

-54.9, #26.

[Dalyn]

I'm surprised it's not worse. I wonder what it's like the last 10 years?


-54.9, #26.

We were actually in the positive from 91-2005. #14 overall. The problems started around 2005, looks like. What baserunning (coaching, drills, etc) changes were made around that time?

[yeezus]

-54.9, #26.

Still surprised we aren't last.

[smootness]

We were actually in the positive from 91-2005. #14 overall. The problems started around 2005, looks like. What baserunning (coaching, drills, etc) changes were made around that time?

I'm not sure it was coaching as much as it was the roster. 2005 was the last year we had Furcal, and Chipper was older at that point and a negative on the basepaths; Andruw had ballooned a little and wasn't fast anymore. We had a stretch where we had guys like Deion, Grissom, Gant...even a guy like Justice who didn't steal many bases had some speed and was probably and even or slightly positive base runner.

Your base runners will generally come from 2B, SS, CF...well, over the last 10 years, we've had guys like Kelly Johnson, Prado, Uggla, Renteria, Yunel, Simmons, Fat Andruw, Kotsay, and McLouth at those positions. And we didn't make up for that with guys like McCann at C, LaRoche/Teixiera/Kotchman/Freeman at 1B, and Old Chipper at 3B.

I do think we have some issues on the basepaths, but after looking further, it's probably due mostly to the makeup of the roster.

[sturg33]

I'm not sure it was coaching as much as it was the roster. 2005 was the last year we had Furcal, and Chipper was older at that point and a negative on the basepaths; Andruw had ballooned a little and wasn't fast anymore. We had a stretch where we had guys like Deion, Grissom, Gant...even a guy like Justice who didn't steal many bases had some speed and was probably and even or slightly positive base runner.

Your base runners will generally come from 2B, SS, CF...well, over the last 10 years, we've had guys like Kelly Johnson, Prado, Uggla, Renteria, Yunel, Simmons, Fat Andruw, Kotsay, and McLouth at those positions. And we didn't make up for that with guys like McCann at C, LaRoche/Teixiera/Kotchman/Freeman at 1B, and Old Chipper at 3B.

I do think we have some issues on the basepaths, but after looking further, it's probably due mostly to the makeup of the roster.

Well, Bourn came over and didn't steal nearly as much. McLouth too, was a great base stealer in Pitt but stopped here. Justin Upton stole a lot before he came, then a lot after he left. Just odd that we don't run more.

[smootness]

Well, Bourn came over and didn't steal nearly as much. McLouth too, was a great base stealer in Pitt but stopped here. Justin Upton stole a lot before he came, then a lot after he left. Just odd that we don't run more.

McLouth and Upton are decent examples of guys who definitely stole less while here. But if you look at what Bourn did after he went to Cleveland, the numbers he put up here actually just look like the natural regression in speed he was likely experiencing approaching 30.

[yeezus]

Well, Bourn came over and didn't steal nearly as much. McLouth too, was a great base stealer in Pitt but stopped here. Justin Upton stole a lot before he came, then a lot after he left. Just odd that we don't run more.

right, it's not just that we weren't good at stealing bases or didn't steal a lot, it's guys coming here after being good at it, doing it poorly or not much here, and then leaving and doing it well again.

[Dalyn]

I'm not sure it was coaching as much as it was the roster. 2005 was the last year we had Furcal, and Chipper was older at that point and a negative on the basepaths; Andruw had ballooned a little and wasn't fast anymore. We had a stretch where we had guys like Deion, Grissom, Gant...even a guy like Justice who didn't steal many bases had some speed and was probably and even or slightly positive base runner.

Your base runners will generally come from 2B, SS, CF...well, over the last 10 years, we've had guys like Kelly Johnson, Prado, Uggla, Renteria, Yunel, Simmons, Fat Andruw, Kotsay, and McLouth at those positions. And we didn't make up for that with guys like McCann at C, LaRoche/Teixiera/Kotchman/Freeman at 1B, and Old Chipper at 3B.

I do think we have some issues on the basepaths, but after looking further, it's probably due mostly to the makeup of the roster.

It is more of a problem than just simply who is on the team. We had positive baserunners come to Atlanta and flop (relative to their past and future success) quite often.

[smootness]

It is more of a problem than just simply who is on the team. We had positive baserunners come to Atlanta and flop (relative to their past and future success) quite often.

As I said, McLouth and Upton are decent examples, though neither was ever a prolific base stealer. Upton's percentages pretty much stayed the same, he just attempted about half the steals here he has elsewhere. And McLouth's numbers were down in Atlanta, though not to some incredible degree.

Outside of those guys, who saw a serious regression? Renteria was actually a slightly better base stealer in Atlanta than he was elsewhere at the time.

[Dalyn]

As I said, McLouth and Upton are decent examples, though neither was ever a prolific base stealer. Upton's percentages pretty much stayed the same, he just attempted about half the steals here he has elsewhere. And McLouth's numbers were down in Atlanta, though not to some incredible degree.

Outside of those guys, who saw a serious regression? Renteria was actually a slightly better base stealer in Atlanta than he was elsewhere at the time.

To clarify, it's not just the big-time speed guys. Taking the extra base. Getting good jumps/reads. All of that takes a hit for a decent percentage of our players. It's weird. And McLouth went from, if I remember correctly, one of the highest (success) percentages in history to just an above average baserunner.

Bourn dropped from 13.6 to 7.8, McLouth from 9.0 to 2.1, Upton went from 0.9 to 5.0 so far this year, Heyward is also already higher this year than last, Blanco went from a 0.5 to a 5.7, Giles from a 0.8 to a 4.7, Renteria dropped from a 5.3 to a 0.8, BJ from a 5.3 to a 0.7, Cabrera went from a 0.0 to a 3.6, etc - I think there is enough evidence to support that it is something wrong with our system/approach. The difference in roster is just selection trying to overcome a weakness by avoiding those kinds of players, instead of finding and fixing the problem.

[smootness]

To clarify, it's not just the big-time speed guys. Taking the extra base. Getting good jumps/reads. All of that takes a hit for a decent percentage of our players. It's weird. And McLouth went from, if I remember correctly, one of the highest (success) percentages in history to just an above average baserunner.

Bourn dropped from 13.6 to 7.8, McLouth from 9.0 to 2.1, Upton went from 0.9 to 5.0 so far this year, Heyward is also already higher this year than last, Blanco went from a 0.5 to a 5.7, Giles from a 0.8 to a 4.7, Renteria dropped from a 5.3 to a 0.8, BJ from a 5.3 to a 0.7, Cabrera went from a 0.0 to a 3.6, etc - I think there is enough evidence to support that it is something wrong with our system/approach. The difference in roster is just selection trying to overcome a weakness by avoiding those kinds of players, instead of finding and fixing the problem.

This is a pretty selective use of the numbers. Let's run through these: Bourn dropped from 13.6 to 7.8 but clearly had a 3-year peak, and we got him as he was coming off that. He was 6.7 in 2008 before that run, and he's been at 3.9, 0.6, and 2.1 in the last 3 years since leaving Atlanta.

McLouth dropped from 9 to 2.1 but the 9 was by far his best year ever. The 2.1 came in half a season with Atlanta, he jumped to 3.4 in half a season with Atlanta the following year, was at 3.8 in 89 games the next year after Atlanta, and was under 6 in a full year the next.

Renteria had a run with these numbers prior to coming to Atlanta: -1.3, 3.8, -1.7, 1.6, -2.5, 5.9, 2.2, 5.3. He did drop to 0.8 his first year in Atlanta, then rebounded to 3.1 his second year. What did he do in the 2 years after Atlanta? -1.6, -2.8.

It seems to me the common thread here is that we got each of these guys around age 28/29, right after their peaks as base runners, and Atlanta coincided with a downward trajectory for them. There is no obvious trend of being great elsewhere and worse in Atlanta here.

Heyward? Yes, he is at 4.4 this year already after posting a 3.4 last year and a -0.6 in an injury-plagued year in 2013. But even this year doesn't come close to the 9.7 he posted in Atlanta in 2012. Why would he get better over the last couple years? Maybe because he's healthy and he's 25. We let him go just as he was getting near his peak, which seems to be about 25-27 or so for base runners.

You use Upton's comparison from 2014 to 2015 but don't use the fact that he was 3.7 in 2012 with Arizona and 4.1 in 2013 with Atlanta.

And Gregor Blanco? Seriously? He had 48 PAs in 2009 when he posted that 0.5. What did he do with a full year the year before? 3.7. He did post 5.7 in 2012, then fell to -0.5 and -0.2 in the years following.

Marcus Giles posted 0.8 in his last year in Atlanta. The 3 years prior? 5.6, 3.1, 3.5. In that sense, the 4.7 is mostly just more of the same; makes the 0.8 seem like a random outlier, not a product of bad base running coaching/techniques in Atlanta.

Melky Cabrera? Yeah, he sucked in Atlanta. Even still, in the 3 years prior to that 0.0 in Atlanta, he posted a combined total of 0.5. And he's been awful the last 2 years. Seems like perhaps that two year uptick coincided with a two-year uptick in offensive numbers as a whole. What could that have been?

And lastly, BJ. Again, BJ also sucked in Atlanta. And he sucks in San Diego. He did post a 2.5 last year in Atlanta, though, and posted a 0.9 in TB the year before that 5.3.

So, yes, you used extremely selective numbers to make it look as bad as possible for these guys' years in Atlanta. Taken as a whole, Atlanta does not in any way look like an aberration.

[smootness]

Just as an add-on, using a guy who was in his peak years with the Braves, here are Furcal's numbers:

2003-2005 w/ Braves: 11.1, 9.2, 7.5

2006-2012 after Braves: 4.5, 1.3, 1.3, 2.5, 4.7, 2.1, 2.0

He was age 25-27 during that span with the Braves, 28-34 after.

[Nerfherders]

And keep in mind that base running isn't precisely the same as base stealing. You can be a great base runner and not steal many bases. It's about being smart on balls put in play and knowing when you can take 2 bases on a single.

[cajunrevenge]

I think its important to note how the players we traded are actually doing and how the players we added are doing.

Heywood .288/.343/.437

Gattis .244/.274/.449

JUpton .247/.320/.430


Markakis .293/.371/.369 - I will gladly take an OBP machine over sub .350 OBP

Maybin .266/.327/.373 - If we dont make this trade Melvin is starting CF most of the year for us.

Peterson .250/.326/.356


Pierzynski - .302/.339/.446 - Better defensively and I would rather his stat line over Gattis this year. So we traded Gattis and got better production from his replacement for only 5 million.


I dont think anyone can say we would have been a better team this year without those trades. We would have Melvin in center probably leading off. No Markakis because we have Heywood and Justin. The pen would have been a lot better with everyone moving down 1 spot for Kimbrel. The offense probably would have been worse because Gattis/Heywood took the first month off and Justin has only hit in the first month. No wonder 2014 team sucked.