Simmons not voted best defensive player among coaches.

[Heyward]

Apparently Desmond and Tulo were.

Laughable.

I could see Machado, but neither of them are on Simba's level.

[yeezus]

Machado plays 3rd.
Desmond????

[CyYoung31]

You mean defensive player in general or defensive shortstop?

[Heyward]

You mean defensive player in general or defensive shortstop?

I think it may of been infielder or in general.

Even still, neither are on his level.

[thethe]

From the brief times I have seen Machado I have been impressed. Don't see him enough to say for sure he is on Simmons level. The numbers are kind to him for sure.

Nobody as the SS position though is on Simmons level.

[GovClintonTyree]

Apparently Desmond and Tulo were.

Laughable.

I like Tulo, but Simba is the best SS I've ever seen, above Ozzie and Omar.

[jpx7]

That's inane, but probably a reflection of Simmons' limited time in the major-leagues relative to Tulowitzki and Desmond.

[wheresmykayak]

This must have been the voting panel.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100429002846/lionking/images/e/ea/Hyenas.jpg

[thethe]

Link please btw.

[GovClintonTyree]

That's inane, but probably a reflection of Simmons' limited time in the major-leagues relative to Tulowitzki and Desmond.

We need a link. National media types who follow Boston and New York and occasionally look at other teams could vote for Tulo if they hadn't seen Simba enough, but nobody who has ever watched a baseball game would judge Desmond over Simmons. Hell, Desmond was awful his first several years.

[Orphan Black]

Yeah...I would say it's more based on the amount of time Simmons has been in MLB. Most managers haven't seen him but 6 or 7 times. Probably should still be enough, but maybe they think it's a fluke because they don't see him everyday.

[Heyward]

You mean defensive player in general or defensive shortstop?

It was actually best tools on defense.

They said Desmond had a better arm than Simmons...

Simmons might not be as proven but he will pretty much win the NL Gold Glove provided health. He's on another level from everyone else.

I think Desmond is much improved on defense but better than Simmons, he is not, no one is.

[Heyward]

Link please btw.

It's on Talking Chop.

I can't copy/paste.

[cajunrevenge]

I dont think Simmons hits enough to get enough credit proper credit for his defense. I didnt see enough of Ozzie to compare him to Simmons but Simmons is the best I have ever seen.

[zitothebrave]

Lulz at Desmond. Tulo is a great defender.

I would take Simmons over Tulo but I get him.

Desmond though. Lol

[Dalyn]

Fredi must've changed his vote after the Uggla play. Only way Desmond makes it.

[The Chosen One]

Fredi must've changed his vote after the Uggla play. Only way Desmond makes it.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/11ty5a8.jpg

[parkvadawg]

I like Tulo, but Simba is the best SS I've ever seen, above Ozzie and Omar.

High praise being Ozzie was the greatest defensive player to grace this earth. Don't think I would go that far.

[The Chosen One]

High praise being Ozzie was the greatest defensive player to grace this earth. Don't think I would go that far.

There isn't a play I haven't seen Simba make yet.

Ozzie could do back flips and cartwheels, but Simba makes it the most efficient, yet most deadliest.

[Orphan Black]

My only complaint about Simmons is when he lollipops throws to first. He's thrown more than a few in the dirt that Freddie's had to scoop because of this.

[parkvadawg]

There isn't a play I haven't seen Simba make yet.

Ozzie could do back flips and cartwheels, but Simba makes it the most efficient, yet most deadliest.

Simba is great but Ozzie did a whole lot more than flips. He made plays no one thought possible

[yeezus]

My only complaint about Simmons is when he lollipops throws to first. He's thrown more than a few in the dirt that Freddie's had to scoop because of this.

Is this a joke? I don't think it's possible for Simmons to lollipop throws.

[Orphan Black]

Is this a joke? I don't think it's possible for Simmons to lollipop throws.

He does it all the time.

[GovClintonTyree]

Simba is great but Ozzie did a whole lot more than flips. He made plays no one thought possible

Both incredibly nimble with the best body control and hand-eye in the world. Both get rid of the ball faster than anyone in their era. both single digit error guys, and though Ozzie played on turf, he'd be a single digit error guy on grass. Ozzie's arm, though, was only above average and toward the end was actually below average. Simmons throws 98.

Ozzie was always in impeccable shape, as is Simba, but Simba is 6'3", while Oz was probably 5'9", though I'm sure they listed him taller. Although Oz got all the press, Omar might have been better. But yes, Simba is better than both. We'll have to see if he's better for 20 years.

[parkvadawg]

Both incredibly nimble with the best body control and hand-eye in the world. Both get rid of the ball faster than anyone in their era. both single digit error guys, and though Ozzie played on turf, he'd be a single digit error guy on grass. Ozzie's arm, though, was only above average and toward the end was actually below average. Simmons throws 98.

Ozzie was always in impeccable shape, as is Simba, but Simba is 6'3", while Oz was probably 5'9", though I'm sure they listed him taller. Although Oz got all the press, Omar might have been better. But yes, Simba is better than both. We'll have to see if he's better for 20 years.

We shall agree to disagree. Simba has the better arm, not as good with the glove

[gilesfan]

Simmons is the best defensive SS in baseball. He's no Ozzie, but may be the best since then.

[rico43]

My only complaint about Simmons is when he lollipops throws to first. He's thrown more than a few in the dirt that Freddie's had to scoop because of this.

You got to be confusing him with Johnson. Simmons throws that overhand, belt-high fastball to first as well and as often as any guy I've ever seen.

[rico43]

Simmons is the best defensive SS in baseball. He's no Ozzie, but may be the best since then.

I have seen highlights of Alexi Ramirez of the Indians that blew my mind. He and Everth Cabrera are serious leather.

[rico43]

He does it all the time.

He is throwing directly overhand. No other SS does that. It's coming to Freddie at 95; your lollipop is an illusion, or a delusion.

[zitothebrave]

High praise being Ozzie was the greatest defensive player to grace this earth. Don't think I would go that far.

Simmons is not better than Ozzie just yet, Ozzie was great over his whole career we'll see if Simmons can match that (though I have faith) and the best defensive player to grace this earth is Andruw Jones. It's not even close. The things Druw was able to do stupify me. What makes it even more bonkers is that he would make super hard plays and they would look easy because of his intial reaction. I never saw anyone in the history of baseball be moving in the right direction before the ball was hit. It was like he could take the pitch, location and almost time the hitters swing to get the area it was going. Guy was insane.

[Braves1976]

High praise being Ozzie was the greatest defensive player to grace this earth. Don't think I would go that far.

I would and I was a big Ozzie fan and watched him in his prime. Simmons is the best I've ever seen, and he only seems to get better too.

That said, I agree that vote is laughable.

[GovClintonTyree]

We shall agree to disagree. Simba has the better arm, not as good with the glove

It is good.

[GovClintonTyree]

He is throwing directly overhand. No other SS does that. It's coming to Freddie at 95; your lollipop is an illusion, or a delusion.

Yeah, that one's not making much sense. Epic arm, unique style. Never seen a SS come over the top like that.

I did notice that Lil Guv started doing it after he started watching Simmons. Very accurate.

[GovClintonTyree]

I have seen highlights of Alexi Ramirez of the Indians that blew my mind. He and Everth Cabrera are serious leather.

There are other good ones, but only one Andrelton Simmons.

[CyYoung31]

Simmons is not better than Ozzie just yet, Ozzie was great over his whole career we'll see if Simmons can match that (though I have faith) and the best defensive player to grace this earth is Andruw Jones. It's not even close. The things Druw was able to do stupify me. What makes it even more bonkers is that he would make super hard plays and they would look easy because of his intial reaction. I never saw anyone in the history of baseball be moving in the right direction before the ball was hit. It was like he could take the pitch, location and almost time the hitters swing to get the area it was going. Guy was insane.

This just can't be said enough. So, I am quoting it.

[JohnAdcox]

I think it may of been infielder or in general.

Even still, neither are on his level.

Word.

[Dunit24]

They could vote him last and I dont care. Simmons defense is the best and his bat will keep improving. We got ourselves a keeper folks.

[Tapate50]

Simmons is not better than Ozzie just yet, Ozzie was great over his whole career we'll see if Simmons can match that (though I have faith) and the best defensive player to grace this earth is Andruw Jones. It's not even close. The things Druw was able to do stupify me. What makes it even more bonkers is that he would make super hard plays and they would look easy because of his intial reaction. I never saw anyone in the history of baseball be moving in the right direction before the ball was hit. It was like he could take the pitch, location and almost time the hitters swing to get the area it was going. Guy was insane.

What do all the defensive metrics say on the matter of Ozzie vs Simmons?

[zitothebrave]

What do all the defensive metrics say on the matter of Ozzie vs Simmons?

Would be comparing Apples and Oranges. Ozzie never played in the UZR era. While Total Zone does a pretty good job, it's not as accurate as modern measures.

[depley]

Simmons leads all Major League shortstops with a total of 31 in the Defensive Runs Saved category, one of the more popular defensive metrics. Minnesota's Pedro Florimon ranks second with 11 and Baltimore's J.J. Hardy ranks third with seven.

The 2 highest recorded seasons Adam Everett (34 with the 2006 Astros) and Jack Wilson (32 with the 2005 Pirates) Simmons will eclipse both of those by a wide margin before this year ends. Maybe the coaches out there should look at the numbers!

Simmons is not Ozzie yet, he hasn't played long enough, but I think if he stays healthy he might prove to be just as good over time.

[thethe]

Welcome Dep.

I agree.

[Nerfherders]

And another tidbit - Simmons is 10th in the NL in bWAR.

[GovClintonTyree]

Would be comparing Apples and Oranges. Ozzie never played in the UZR era. While Total Zone does a pretty good job, it's not as accurate as modern measures.

Imagine a world without sketchy defensive metrics. And people relying on them as if they were gospel.

[BremanFan88]

Imagine a world without sketchy defensive metrics. And people relying on them as if they were gospel.

Or a world where fans don't think bad defenders are somehow "solid" because *insert illogical reason here*...

[Chico]

Could Simmons be underrated for making things look too easy? There have been many defensive players be underrated over the years for that reason.

[Braves1976]

Could Simmons be underrated for making things look too easy? There have been many defensive players be underrated over the years for that reason.

Yes, I do believe that's part of it.

[GovClintonTyree]

Or a world where fans don't think bad defenders are somehow "solid" because *insert illogical reason here*...

I believe my eyes.

And yes, my eyes saw my boy Chris airmail a 6'5" 1B last night. That was ugly. And almost costly.

Serious question: Last year after three months, WAR had Michael Bourn worth more than Matt Kemp, mostly on the strength of dWAR. I've read all the disclaimers about year to year numbers being all over the map and needing to look over several years for them to stabilize. There were people here (well, at Scout) and elsewhere who took that as the last word. At the time, Kemp was playing what appeared to be (and was rated as) adequate defense with massive hitting stats, while Bourn was having a nice season with a little power (but nowhere near the impact of Kemp).

Do you believe Michael Bourn had a better first half last year than Matt Kemp?

[gilesfan]

By all accounts kemp may be the worst defensive CFer in baseball.

The way you guys term players as adequate defenders makes me think there can never be a bad defensive player in the history of baseball.

[Mrs. Meta]

Imagine a world without sketchy defensive metrics. And people relying on them as if they were gospel.

IMAGINE ALLLLLLLLL THE PEEEEEEEEOPLE!!!!!!!

Lolsorry, got carried awaylol!

[Heyward]

By all accounts kemp may be the worst defensive CFer in baseball.

The way you guys term players as adequate defenders makes me think there can never be a bad defensive player in the history of baseball.

Kemp isn't the worst defensive CF'er in baseball.

He's not too bad there from when I watch him play.

[gilesfan]

Kemp isn't the worst defensive CF'er in baseball.

He's not too bad there from when I watch him play.

Your judge of defensive talent is pretty amusing.

Next, tell me how good of a defensive first baseman Gattis is.

[zitothebrave]

Kemp isn't the worst defensive CF'er in baseball.

He's not too bad there from when I watch him play.

Of everyday starters, he is the worst in both UZR and DRS by a long margin. Since 2009 he's been worse below average than Bourn has been above average. Kemp is toolsy, but has bad instincts. Classic example of a guy who people think he's better than he really is because he doesn't "look" horrible because people associate looking horrible with Errors.

Kemp just doesn't have great range.

[Heyward]

Your judge of defensive talent is pretty amusing.

Next, tell me how good of a defensive first baseman Gattis is.

Says the guy who said Ryan Zimmerman is the best defensive 3B in baseball, like you can be talking.

He's not great there, but for a spot start here or there he would be ok.

[gilesfan]

Says the guy who said Ryan Zimmerman is the best defensive 3B in baseball, like you can be talking.

He's not great there, but for a spot start here or there he would be ok.

Name some bad defenders, Heyward.

[Heyward]

Name some bad defenders, Heyward.

Matt Holliday, Michael Young, Mark Reynolds, Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard.

And yes, no Johnson or Uggla.

[GovClintonTyree]

Of everyday starters, he is the worst in both UZR and DRS by a long margin. Since 2009 he's been worse below average than Bourn has been above average. Kemp is toolsy, but has bad instincts. Classic example of a guy who people think he's better than he really is because he doesn't "look" horrible because people associate looking horrible with Errors.

Kemp just doesn't have great range.

Wait a minute. I thought CJ was the worst in the game.

I understand range, and I understand its importance in defense. Many of these guys with bad metrics are explained by "bad range." We'll, I'll tell you something. Even if Chris Johnson or Freddie Freeman or Dan Uggla or yes, Matt Kemp, have bad range, there is no way their range costs their teams 3 games a year. Defense isn't as important or measurable as offense. Many of these guys do something well that doesn't get represented or is underrepresented in stats. Dan Uggla turns the double play as well as anyone. And Freddie Freeman handles throws and stretches and saves errors as well as anyone. And nobody seems to measure that accurately.

[JCarbo76]

Wait a minute. I thought CJ was the worst in the game.

I understand range, and I understand its importance in defense. Many of these guys with bad metrics are explained by "bad range." We'll, I'll tell you something. Even if Chris Johnson or Freddie Freeman or Dan Uggla or yes, Matt Kemp, have bad range, there is no way their range costs their teams 3 games a year. Defense isn't as important or measurable as offense. Many of these guys do something well that doesn't get represented or is underrepresented in stats. Dan Uggla turns the double play as well as anyone. And Freddie Freeman handles throws and stretches and saves errors as well as anyone. And nobody seems to measure that accurately.

I agree with this. I think that defensive metrics are valuable in deciding who is the best at each position. However I am convinced that they are very inaccurate for things such as runs saved and DWar. Good offense trumps good defense every time.

[The Chosen One]

When i first read the title I thought our buddy from last year Not Simmons was voted as best. ..

[Julio3000]

When i first read the title I thought our buddy from last year Not Simmons was voted as best. ..

Not Simmons is definitely not the best defensive player.

He may be the best among coaches. Chino Cadahia's range isn't what it once was.