Good Piece Sketching Out The Liberty-Braves Arrangement

[MadduxFanII]

We all love cursing Liberty Media (**** You Liberty Media!, for example), but it looks like the relationship between Liberty and our beloved Franchise Formerly Known As The Braves is a little more complicated than it looks. Here's a really good piece from Chris Jervis (http://outfieldflyrule.com/2015/11/13/the-atlanta-braves-liberty-media-and-misplaced-anger/) laying out the history of Liberty's acquisition and why our budget is the way it is.

Still wish they would sell, however.

[clvclv]

We all love cursing Liberty Media (**** You Liberty Media!, for example), but it looks like the relationship between Liberty and our beloved Franchise Formerly Known As The Braves is a little more complicated than it looks. Here's a really good piece from Chris Jervis (http://outfieldflyrule.com/2015/11/13/the-atlanta-braves-liberty-media-and-misplaced-anger/) laying out the history of Liberty's acquisition and why our budget is the way it is.

Still wish they would sell, however.


Forgot the link.

[MadduxFanII]

Forgot the link.

No, it's there. Links are just impossible to see on this forum. I blame Liberty.

[Chico]

Good Read!

[sturg33]

Interesting. So it seems the only way the Braves can raise payroll is if they first make a profit...

[clvclv]

No, it's there. Links are just impossible to see on this forum. I blame Liberty.

Got it...guess the links are getting tougher since I cut back on the number of movie channels I get on DirecTV!!!

:facepalm:

[Chico]

Interesting. So it seems the only way the Braves can raise payroll is if they first make a profit...

Kind of. They were profitable last year. Now they're looking to sell stock to bring in cash to help subsidize them until they make a big push on season tickets for 2017. Then the complex will be profitable starting in 2017.

[nsacpi]

I know attendance is only part of the picture. But if it drops by 5,000 for 81 home games, that's a decline of 400,000. If the average revenue per attendee is say $40 we are talking a drop in revenues of 16 million. It isn't a trivial consideration when you trade away the players the fan base identify with. Of course winning trumps all, but winning is gonna be scarce for a few years.

The only way payroll is going to look like it is over 100M in 2016 is because we are counting money sent by the Indians and Angels in the trades we made with them.

[Chico]

I would assume we're going to have a payroll around $100M-$105M again

[NinersSBChamps]

Tl;dr

**** Liberty?

[nsacpi]

I would assume we're going to have a payroll around $100M-$105M again

About 15M of that will be money chipped in by the Indians and Angels.

[Horsehide Harry]

The article explores the direct relationship with Liberty and how that effects payroll but doesn't deal with the payroll itself and how it is determined.

I know the Braves had a crippling local TV revenue deal leftover from Turner but has that expired?

I look at the Braves and they are the only game (MLB) in town in a Top 5 US media market plus are the essential de-facto home team for a number of other large regional media markets such as Charlotte, Raleigh Durham, Columbia, Nashville, Birmingham, Knoxville, etc. There is NO reason that they shouldn't be a large market team except for local media revenues and fan attendance. Fan attendance is directly related to the product put on the field and HAS been there in the past.

[NinersSBChamps]

Attendance is tied to success and success is tied to the front office. Which is why I have and will continue to say the Braves aren't competing for anything with Hart around.

[nsacpi]

The national TV deal has bumped up revenues quite a bit in recent years. That affects all teams, and we have seen salaries increase significantly in recent years. The Braves have treaded water. Opening Day payroll has been in the 90-100M range each of the past five years, except for 2014 when it was pushed up by McGwirk's decision to approve an emergency expenditure for Santana. Why has our payroll stagnated at a time when it has gone up for other teams. Part of it is the local TV deal. But a significant part is attendance which is down 500,000 in 2015 from 2010. This has to a large extent negated the rise in national TV revenues, preventing payroll from growing as it has throughout the industry.

You can see from McGwirk's interview they are heavily counting on the halo effect of the new ballpark. It remains to be seen how long this halo effect lasts if the team is not winning games.

[Chico]

About 15M of that will be money chipped in by the Indians and Angels.

When I look at the payroll I deduct that. So we have a 75M payroll now, not a 87.5M payroll. So I think we'll still spend another 25M-30M. This year's payroll was tabbed a year ago. Companies of this size don't look at their checking account before they go shopping. Everything is planned out a fiscal year ahead.

[nsacpi]

When I look at the payroll I deduct that. So we have a 75M payroll now, not a 87.5M payroll. So I think we'll still spend another 25M-30M. This year's payroll was tabbed a year ago. Companies of this size don't look at their checking account before they go shopping. Everything is planned out a fiscal year ahead.

That's correct. And realistically they must be projecting another decline in attendance in 2016. They don't engage in wishful thinking when making those projections. Consequences for missing budget targets tend to be rather serious for organizations of this type.

[Chico]

That's correct. And realistically they must be projecting another decline in attendance in 2016. They don't engage in wishful thinking when making those projections. Consequences for missing budget targets tend to be rather serious for organizations of this type.

I do think they're expecting a decrease in attendance, thus not caring about the backlash of trading Simmons. The new ballpark is going to open themselves up to more fans from the burbs, and more importantly more families. They will definitely see a huge spike in revenue once the complex opens that will bridge them to us winning.

[clvclv]

Attendance is tied to success and success is tied to the front office. Which is why I have and will continue to say the Braves aren't competing for anything with Hart around.

Attendance and success have NEVER been tied together in Atlanta.

After the first few half of the run (1999), attendance drastically declined. Fans in Atlanta got spoined and quit coming to games because they EXPEXTED to go to the playoffs every year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/attend.shtml

Try reading something other than things posted here before making such stupid statements.

[clvclv]

The national TV deal has bumped up revenues quite a bit in recent years. That affects all teams, and we have seen salaries increase significantly in recent years. The Braves have treaded water. Opening Day payroll has been in the 90-100M range each of the past five years, except for 2014 when it was pushed up by McGwirk's decision to approve an emergency expenditure for Santana. Why has our payroll stagnated at a time when it has gone up for other teams. Part of it is the local TV deal. But a significant part is attendance which is down 500,000 in 2015 from 2010. This has to a large extent negated the rise in national TV revenues, preventing payroll from growing as it has throughout the industry.

You can see from McGwirk's interview they are heavily counting on the halo effect of the new ballpark. It remains to be seen how long this halo effect lasts if the team is not winning games.

Which is exactly why they wanted to build the entire complex rather than just a new park. Revenues from leases for the restaurants, residential areas, etc. will help keep revenues more consistent - and substantially higher than they ever were at The Ted. The Braves will control where those revenues will be spent since Liberty doesn't meddle in the baseball decisions. This is why they intend to substantially raise payroll as the new park opens rather than now - the revenues will be in hand at that point.

[NinersSBChamps]

Attendance and success have NEVER been tied together in Atlanta.

After the first few half of the run (1999), attendance drastically declined. Fans in Atlanta got spoined and quit coming to games because they EXPEXTED to go to the playoffs every year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/attend.shtml

Try reading something other than things posted here before making such stupid statements.

24th in average attendance last season with an abysmal record. 18th in 2014 with a better record. 13th in 2013 with a team that made the post season.

[NinersSBChamps]

Attendance and success have NEVER been tied together in Atlanta.

After the first few half of the run (1999), attendance drastically declined. Fans in Atlanta got spoined and quit coming to games because they EXPEXTED to go to the playoffs every year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/attend.shtml

Try reading something other than things posted here before making such stupid statements.


Also try not being such an arrogant prick before making your elitist comments.

[sturg33]

24th in average attendance last season with an abysmal record. 18th in 2014 with a better record. 13th in 2013 with a team that made the post season.

But that farm system though!!!

[Horsehide Harry]

The issue I have with this is that it is an incomplete story at best.

The story does mention that the Braves have returned a profit to Liberty.

So, here's a likely scenario for you: McGuirk gets paid a base salary, let's say $1M per year, then he has a bonus dependent upon what profit he returns to Liberty each year (let's say for every $10M in profit he earns $1M in bonus), then Liberty IS in fact affecting the Braves and how they are run by the simple structure of the compensation packages that they have in place with the baseball execs.

So does McGuirk or JS or whoever, spend those extra payroll dollars when they are unsure about their own personal comp? Almost certainly not.

[nsacpi]

The issue I have with this is that it is an incomplete story at best.

The story does mention that the Braves have returned a profit to Liberty.

So, here's a likely scenario for you: McGuirk gets paid a base salary, let's say $1M per year, then he has a bonus dependent upon what profit he returns to Liberty each year (let's say for every $10M in profit he earns $1M in bonus), then Liberty IS in fact affecting the Braves and how they are run by the simple structure of the compensation packages that they have in place with the baseball execs.

So does McGuirk or JS or whoever, spend those extra payroll dollars when they are unsure about their own personal comp? Almost certainly not.

I've wondered if something along those lines played a role in Wren's firing. McGuirk did sign off on blowing through the budget to sign Santana in 2014. JS gave a couple odd interviews in which he said that management now had a responsibility to bring down the payroll back to its planned level. But that did not happen and on top of it attendance dropped almost 200,000 in 2014. I would guess a few budget targets were missed in 2014 and some bonuses affected as a result.

[NYCBrave]

Thanks for sharing this article, but this still is not a good situation. You've got to spend money and take financial risks to make money, and we seem unwilling or unable to do that. If the goal is to just break even every year, how are we even going to increase of success potential, if we're not even willing to take long term risks that could lead to big rewards? We're going to be stuck in this cycle for years to come unless this team is sold to an owner who cares about winning, which we don't have obviously. In essence, for us to have any type of success in the future, it's going to require a lot of luck.

[Enscheff]

Thanks for sharing this article, but this still is not a good situation. You've got to spend money and take financial risks to make money, and we seem unwilling or unable to do that. If the goal is to just break even every year, how are we even going to increase of success potential, if we're not even willing to take long term risks that could lead to big rewards? We're going to be stuck in this cycle for years to come unless this team is sold to an owner who cares about winning, which we don't have obviously. In essence, for us to have any type of success in the future, it's going to require a lot of luck.

Building an brand new baseball complex isn't taking long term risk?

[cajunrevenge]

Tl;dr

**** Liberty?

No, the real grinch in this story is the man who knew these things AND had the ability to veto both the TV deal and the sale. Look at the difference between how Selig handled the Braves and Dodgers TV deals and sale. Selig veto'd a 2 billion dollar TV deal for the Dodgers because "it wasnt in the best interest of the team". The Braves owner in the process of selling the team signed a 25 year contract which was the longest tv deal at the time for less than 20 million a year and ****ing rubber stamped that ****. Where the **** was the concern for the well being of the Braves franchise or its fan base?



What bothers me the most about it is that Liberty media was okay with the horrendous TV deal because it lowered the value of the team.



TLDR - I hope that corrupt piece of **** Selig dies in a fire.




edit - and lets not forget how MLB feels so bad for the Nats that they just give them 25 million a year just to piss me the **** off even more.

[blueagleace1]

Also try not being such an arrogant prick before making your elitist comments.


But that farm system though!!!

Dumb and Dumber..

Are you guys butt-buddies?

[clvclv]

24th in average attendance last season with an abysmal record. 18th in 2014 with a better record. 13th in 2013 with a team that made the post season.

Read the numbers on the chart...

Turner Field Capacity - 50,096

The seasons you reference and their average attendance...

2015 - 24,709 (49.323% of capacity)
2014 - 29,065 (58.019% of capacity)
2013 - 31,465 (62.809% of capacity)

The Ted was almost 40% EMPTY during regular season games even when the team made the playoffs WITH Heyward, Upton, and Gattis on the roster. It was 42% EMPTY the last season the Braves had those players.

Fans haven't SUPPORTED the team - actually come out to see the games - since 1999. The average attendance for home games that year was 40,554 (80.952% of capacity - or 9,089 more tickets sold per game than when they made the playoffs in 2013). You do the math - 9,089 x 81 x $25 = $18,405,225 more to spend on salaries - and that's if $25 is ALL those extra fans in attendance spent while at the park - it doesn't include parking revenues and apparel sales. Not coincidentally, the Braves had the 2nd highest payroll in 1999 coming off a 1998 season where they averaged 41,492 per home game.

They can't make it much simpler - if fans actually came to the games, they'd spend more money on payroll.

[nsacpi]

Building an brand new baseball complex isn't taking long term risk?

I believe that Liberty extended the Braves a large loan to finance the new stadium and other related properties. The terms of that loan are what I'd like to see details on.

[NYCBrave]

Building an brand new baseball complex isn't taking long term risk?

Well, how is that being funded?

[cajunrevenge]

One more thing, why the **** do the Cubs not have the share their revenue from games being on WGN? I dont have cable anymore but when I did I always had WGN and I have never lived within 1000 miles of Chicago. Why did the Braves have to split their TBS money equally with everyone else and then get forced into pricing themselves out of the deal and the Cubs and WGN did not? Thats some Grade A Bull ****.

[NinersSBChamps]

Dumb and Dumber..

Are you guys butt-buddies?

I wouldn't go that far with it. We haven't been having our stupid adolescent disagreements lately though.

[Horsehide Harry]

Read the numbers on the chart...

Turner Field Capacity - 50,096

The seasons you reference and their average attendance...

2015 - 24,709 (49.323% of capacity)
2014 - 29,065 (58.019% of capacity)
2013 - 31,465 (62.809% of capacity)

The Ted was almost 40% EMPTY during regular season games even when the team made the playoffs WITH Heyward, Upton, and Gattis on the roster. It was 42% EMPTY the last season the Braves had those players.

Fans haven't SUPPORTED the team - actually come out to see the games - since 1999. The average attendance for home games that year was 40,554 (80.952% of capacity - or 9,089 more tickets sold per game than when they made the playoffs in 2013). You do the math - 9,089 x 81 x $25 = $18,405,225 more to spend on salaries - and that's if $25 is ALL those extra fans in attendance spent while at the park - it doesn't include parking revenues and apparel sales. Not coincidentally, the Braves had the 2nd highest payroll in 1999 coming off a 1998 season where they averaged 41,492 per home game.

They can't make it much simpler - if fans actually came to the games, they'd spend more money on payroll.

But it's an if/then proposition.

If you put a better product on the field, one that produces some excitement and with some marketing behind it to draw in the average fan, then fans will come. You invest in the product and it will pay off if those investments are wise investments. If you look at the Braves payroll and adjust for inflation of the cost to run the franchise, the payroll is significantly lower each year even as it stays relatively stagnant.

The other part of it is that the Braves, even with all the success of the 90's and 2000's, still only one one WS. I think a lot of casual fans that could have been developed into more loyal fans never were because of the perceived lack of success. I think a lot of casual fans soured on the Braves way because they associated that with good, but not good enough.

And then the final thing is the park and its location. A lot of fans just have no interest in in taking their family into Atlanta proper for a game, call it racism, call it fear of crime or just general fear, call it avoidance of hassle, call it what you will but its there.

Running the team like they have been running it is just one thin mistake (probably already made back in 2013 or so) from locking onto the downhill rails with no way off until the train hits bottom (poor team, attendance declines, payroll lowered, poor team again, attendance continues to decline, payroll lowered again with justification essentially sayings fans won't come and spend big money to watch our ****y product so we can't afford to invest to make it better, all on a downward spiral right to the late 70's.