Gunman At Planned Parenthood

[57Brave]

Kills 8 .
Not a Sryian or Muslim or even a Black Lives Matters member.
Just another white male with a gun

“There are protests of varying sizes outside that building probably six days a week,” he said. Sometimes the protests attract as many as 200 people, but “most days there are a dozen people there.”

or what they call them in my neighborhood, a terrorist
Why else than to terrorize people are the violent threats against PP. The over the top rhetoric --
how the man say, "coming home to roost"

Let's talk about the videos and demonize the health care providers that work in side or even just the secretaries and janitors.
Or in this case people that share a parking lot !!!
Shoot if y'all characterize people that support a woman's right to choice "baby killers " (then call for civility in public discourse ) ... well, the next step is violence

Along the lines the Palin "bullseye" on Gabby Giffords"
What goes around, comes around

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

[57Brave]

This point:

Joan Walsh Retweeted
Alice Dreger ‏@AliceDreger 2h2 hours ago

I am asking seriously: Has there ever been an instance of a pro-choice activist shooting a "pro-life" activist?
20 retweets 11 likes

[57Brave]

Correction.

1 dead, not 8

[NinersSBChamps]

This point:

Joan Walsh Retweeted
Alice Dreger ‏@AliceDreger 2h2 hours ago

I am asking seriously: Has there ever been an instance of a pro-choice activist shooting a "pro-life" activist?
20 retweets 11 likes

Pro choice people only kill babies.

[weso1]

Correction.

1 dead, not 8

Disappointed?

[mossy]

Disappointed?

That did seem to damper the open celebration 57 had going.

[goldfly]

3 dead

also, we should call this person what he is, a terrorist

[Runnin]

3 dead

also, we should call this person what he is, a terrorist
Thankfully not a very good one.

[57Brave]

Our civilization has a mechanism in place to change laws.
Should that mechanism not work in your favor, hopefully you would work the political end smarter and harder to change the law. Rather than rely on bombs and guns.

We disagree - why can't some respect that.

[57Brave]

Because democraticly what you are saying is your opinion is more valuable than mine.

[Hawk]

Because democraticly.

.

[57Brave]

.

One of the earliest attacks was made against the non-profit Boulder Valley (Colorado) Clinic that 14 others and I co-founded in 1973, still operating today as the Boulder Valley Women’s Health Center. The attacker struck at night with a Molotov Cocktail. But, the building then housing the clinic had been a residence previously and the attackers mistakenly hit the building’s garage. The Fire Department put out the blaze quickly and the clinic itself was unharmed, but the staff and we board members were shaken. Little did we know how much further these forced-birthers would take things.

More than 40 years later, these attacks continue and yet the media and prominent leaders refuse to call them what they are: terrorism meant to intimidate people from working at or being a client at these facilities. Among the encouragers of these terrorists are people who create lying videos about Planned Parenthood selling baby parts and pundits both prominent and obscure who verbally attack abortion clinics every day from their electronic podiums.

The acts of these encouragers may not be prosecutable but they are nonetheless morally criminal. These cowards need to be called out for the terrorists and terrorist enablers they are.

[Hawk]

You co-founded the Clinic?

[Runnin]

Because democraticly what you are saying is your opinion is more valuable than mine.
What they are saying is that they refuse to accept the democratic process.

[Hawk]

Our civilization has a mechanism in place to change laws.
Should that mechanism not work in your favor, hopefully you would work the political end smarter and harder to change the law. Rather than rely on bombs and guns.

We disagree - why can't some respect that.

Um, what? This doesn't even sound like you.

Tell that to the suffragettes. Tell that to African Americans. Tell that to the Stonewall rioters.

[57Brave]

or use them as examples.
///

"This doesn't even sound like you."

I strongly oppose the profiteers of weapons.
Have I posted doctored videos or advocated bombing the entrances or threatened the homes and families of workers in munitions plants.
Has anyone that agrees with my stance done that ?

yeah, tell the suffragettes - tell them what ? By the 21st century they will be free to chose what happens inside their bodies without fear of being damned and demonized.
Tell them that womens health clinics will be secure?
Probably not the example you meant.

The numbers/situations coming out this past year on police brutality aimed at African-Americans is frightening.
One poster I saw commented on the gunman in Colorado Springs was taken alive. Yet a black teen was shot down because the police thought he had a knife
Not the example you wanted Hawk, wanna try again?

I will leave the Stonewall rioters up to you.
Methinks you get the point

[Hawk]

Your original post encouraged people that disagreed with the 'mechanism' to work harder to politically persuade it.

You do you realize that those groups I mentioned achieved political persuasion through apolitical means, right? They planted the seeds for revolution and spent decades cajoling society to action.

You do realize that 'working the political end' connotes lobbying, right?

Or are you going to try and backtrack and say that you were being glib -- or that those words weren't even yours (who knows anymore?)

I'm just trying to hold you accountable for your posts and encourage you to hash our your own thoughts entirely instead of desperately trying to grapple the whatever the digital liberal posse is promulgating. Because what I'm seeing here is contrarian ... across the board.

[57Brave]

yeah, get Roe v Wade changed.
About as accountable as one can be.

Hawk, I'm too ole and it takes up too much energy to adopt a contrarian lifestyle
why we have Bedell

[Hawk]

yeah, get Roe v Wade changed.

It wouldn't be that difficult. That is, if the people demanded it.

---

Distillation is key here. Let's stop grasping at straws.

[Hawk]

Agence France-Presse
@AFP
#BREAKING Obama says 'enough is enough' after latest US shooting

---

Mhm. How many times has Obama echoed this empty line?

[57Brave]

my point, the "people " aren't demanding it

y'all been bombing, putting up billboards, doctoring videos and shooting doctors for 40 years.
To quote a one time VP candidate, "how's that workin out for ya"
?

[57Brave]

Agence France-Presse
@AFP
#BREAKING Obama says 'enough is enough' after latest US shooting

---

Mhm. How many times has Obama echoed this empty line?

Once again you are missing the point.
This is not about Obama or your opinion of Obama.It is about you and your fellow travelers encouraging and condoning domestic terrorism

[Hawk]

my point, the "people " aren't demanding it

y'all been bombing, putting up billboards, doctoring videos and shooting doctors for 40 years.
To quote a one time VP candidate, "how's that workin out for ya"
?

Y'all?

Oh good gravy. I'm not going to go all Sturg on you, but get a grip and follow the script Pappy!

I'm just curious; has Rachel Maddow's Facebook admin posted any long term trend stats on the public's opinion of abortion since Roe v. Wade?

Those might be something you want to look into, it helps explain why people care more about abortion now than they did 30 years ago. Funny, but I guess just inexplicably random.

[57Brave]

"Pappy"
!?!

[Hawk]

Once again you are missing the point.
This is not about Obama or your opinion of Obama.It is about you and your fellow travelers encouraging and condoning domestic terrorism

I mean, you can call it terrorism if it makes you feel better.

I don't see a clear political motive from the angle of the perpetrator of yesterday's tragedy (nor do the police, as of yet) -- in fact, the only politics I see here are the ones that you and your sordid ilk are attempting to force feed into the discourse.

[Hawk]

"Pappy"
!?!

Term of endearment, my friend.

[57Brave]

I mean, you can call it terrorism if it makes you feel better.

I don't see a clear political motive from the angle of the perpetrator of yesterday's tragedy (nor do the police, as of yet) -- in fact, the only politics I see here are the ones that you and your sordid ilk are attempting to force feed into the discourse.

-- you are being purposely thick
why else if not for political purposes?
Do you think it was a property dispute ?
Or their dog wouldn't quit barking at night?
Or his wife was cheating with one of the occupants?
A crime of passion ?



pretty clear cut
.................................................. ......



[ter-uh-riz-uh m]

Examples
Word Origin

noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

[Hawk]

-- you are being purposely thick
why else if not for political purposes?
Do you think it was a property dispute ?
Or their dog wouldn't quit barking at night?
Or his wife was cheating with one of the occupants?
A crime of passion ?

Actually, Dear (the murderer) was arrested in the past for animal cruelty, being a peeping Tom, eavesdropping.

There are a ton of plausible scenarios here, including political motivation -- but I'm not sure why you need to feel to pigeonhole yourself in here.

[sturg33]

I just get the sense that 57 LOVES when shootings happen

[57Brave]

Actually, Dear (the murderer) was arrested in the past for animal cruelty, being a peeping Tom, eavesdropping.

There are a ton of plausible scenarios here, including political motivation -- but I'm not sure why you need to feel to pigeonhole yourself in here.

and this is a person that subscribes to your cause ?
shares your world view ?


//
Don't know why you would offer that information - hardly puts your argument in a good light

[57Brave]

EJ Dionne ‏@EJDionne 2m2 minutes ago

Since Sandy Hook: At least 1,029 mass shootings killing 1,300 people.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CU3Y5PsWIAAYMCa.png:large

[BedellBrave]

Officer Swasey was a church elder. May he RIP. Link (http://m.gazette.com/officer-killed-in-colorado-springs-shooting-was-church-elder-skating-champion/article/1564461)

[Hawk]

and this is a person that follows your cause ?
shares your world view ?

//
Don't know why you would offer that information - hardly puts your argument in a good light

I'm just curious, what argument do you actually think I'm making here?

[BedellBrave]

If you'd like to assist his family financially go here: Link (https://www.youcaring.com/the-family-of-officer-swasey-rachel-swasey-and-children-477034#.VllBrXEQaiE.facebook)


More about the Pro-life officer who lost his life defending the lives of others. Link (http://www.getreligion.org/getreligion/2015/11/28/colorado-springs-motives-so-far-one-is-clear-pro-life-pastor/officer-died-defending-life)

[57Brave]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/planned-parenthood-shooting-suspect-made-comment-about-no-more-baby-n470706?cid=sm_tw&hootPostID=955a227a0068143a01a28b70da350b60

" He also mentioned President Barack Obama in statements. "

"Anderson said that as with ISIS, anti-abortion terrorism tends to draw out individuals who were already unstable and looking for a cause or an excuse to become violent. "Whether you’re talking about extreme right, extreme left, religious, or ISIS, every extremist entity attracts people who are on the fringes themselves who determine that they should personally take action," Anderson explained. "They are on the edge, and in their minds this gives them a way to become a person of importance."

[57Brave]

" Anderson was cautious in her analysis of the Colorado Springs incident, noting that Dear's exact motive is still unclear. But she pointed to a rise in threats and attacks against Planned Parenthood since David Daleiden's group circulated the CMP videos, and said that the ensuing debates, government inquiries, and media focus on Planned Parenthood created an "enormous public response."

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/history-anti-abortion-terrorism-violence-united-states/

[50PoundHead]

http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_48/1319256/151127-robert-dear-colorado-shooting-suspect-yh-combo_bbede9878b7cfacfdff1a4cb1f63ef24.nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg


I know looks can be deceiving, but he doesn't look particularly sane. We have to do something about background checks for the mentally ill, but the loophole in that is that in order to be declared mentally ill, you have to undergo an assessment and my guess is for those who have never had a run-in with the law, they won't seek the assessment.

[Oklahomahawk]

To me this is a debate that can't be won on either side. I've debated, even argued with strict gun control folks, the kind who literally cannot believe/accept that all guns cannot be collected and thrown away and/or stored somewhere securely. They just can't accept that. They also can't or won't accept that bad people who want to commit a crime will balk at the notion of committing one more by stealing a gun if necessary. Some of them were even behind the DUMAS judge in CA who ruled that the part of the application form that you have to fill out to buy a gun, the part where you have to confirm that you aren't a convicted felon, was a violation of that applications 5th amendment rights against self incrimination. Do any of those sound reasonable to you all?

On the other hand I don't believe 2nd amendment rights, or any other rights for that matter, are absolute. The right to drive a car must be earned through study and practice to pass the written test and driving test. The first amendment right to free speech is not absolute either, ask Mr. Schenck from the early 1920s who wasn't allowed to mail anti-war literature during WWI, or if you want to go nonsense in the opposite direction, the Westboro Baptist Church numbnuts can disrupt the funeral of lost loved ones, including those who gave their lives to guarantee them the right to be nimrods.

The right to own a gun should involve training, study and practice IMO. How to load a gun, where the damned safety is located, how to operate one, how to treat one, how to carry and store one safely, how to make sure children can't just walk in a grab the old .45 and take it to school for "show and tell" or to get some payback on your sibling for borrowing your ipod or x-box without their permission.

What's the worst one of all? I'll guarantee you ALL that at least one or two people knew this effing murderer and knew he was a couple of doing something horrible like this but what were they to do? But what happens if they turned him in as "acting suspicious" or "being capable of something like this", the cops wouldn't be able to do anything about it, and if anyone actually got into trouble for this it would be the people who "slandered his character". The only way to stop stuff like this is to create laws that allow us to spy on each other and turn in each other for what crimes may be committed in the future and we all know what that would lead to, secret police, internment camps because the jails wouldn't be big enough to hold everyone, etc. Does anybody want to go there?

[50PoundHead]

To me this is a debate that can't be won on either side. I've debated, even argued with strict gun control folks, the kind who literally cannot believe/accept that all guns cannot be collected and thrown away and/or stored somewhere securely. They just can't accept that. They also can't or won't accept that bad people who want to commit a crime will balk at the notion of committing one more by stealing a gun if necessary. Some of them were even behind the DUMAS judge in CA who ruled that the part of the application form that you have to fill out to buy a gun, the part where you have to confirm that you aren't a convicted felon, was a violation of that applications 5th amendment rights against self incrimination. Do any of those sound reasonable to you all?

On the other hand I don't believe 2nd amendment rights, or any other rights for that matter, are absolute. The right to drive a car must be earned through study and practice to pass the written test and driving test. The first amendment right to free speech is not absolute either, ask Mr. Schenck from the early 1920s who wasn't allowed to mail anti-war literature during WWI, or if you want to go nonsense in the opposite direction, the Westboro Baptist Church numbnuts can disrupt the funeral of lost loved ones, including those who gave their lives to guarantee them the right to be nimrods.

The right to own a gun should involve training, study and practice IMO. How to load a gun, where the damned safety is located, how to operate one, how to treat one, how to carry and store one safely, how to make sure children can't just walk in a grab the old .45 and take it to school for "show and tell" or to get some payback on your sibling for borrowing your ipod or x-box without their permission.

What's the worst one of all? I'll guarantee you ALL that at least one or two people knew this effing murderer and knew he was a couple of doing something horrible like this but what were they to do? But what happens if they turned him in as "acting suspicious" or "being capable of something like this", the cops wouldn't be able to do anything about it, and if anyone actually got into trouble for this it would be the people who "slandered his character". The only way to stop stuff like this is to create laws that allow us to spy on each other and turn in each other for what crimes may be committed in the future and we all know what that would lead to, secret police, internment camps because the jails wouldn't be big enough to hold everyone, etc. Does anybody want to go there?

Good post. The only gun control that would be airtight--or at least semi-airtight--would be to ban all guns and make it illegal to own one. I don't propose that because I think it's really a vast overreach and penalizes the responsible. But I agree with you completely that no right is 100% inviolable. I honestly don't know if there is a solution to the gun problem (if it can be labelled that). I do think that stiffening penalties for committing a crime with a firearm might help at the margins, but I even wonder about that.

[57Brave]

you don't ban ownership of anything -- limit the supply at the manufacturers level
Driving up the price kinda the Chris Rock theory - that if a bullet costs $5000 (exaggerated) - one might think twice about how they use that bullet.
Supply and demand.
Weapons are cheap because there are so many.
3 reasons we don't have a functioning civilian weapon policy
1) The Gun Lobby
2) The Gun Lobby
3) The Gun Lobby


This shooting brings out many ugly issues confronting 21st century USA including:
Weapons rights
Women's rights
Civil rights
Mental issues

The question is being rightly asked, why is this guy taken alive and Dylan Roof treated to Burger King while a black youth is shot because he "might" have a knife.

[goldfly]

Term of endearment, my friend.

thought we were talking about the overrated bourbon for a second

[BedellBrave]

http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_48/1319256/151127-robert-dear-colorado-shooting-suspect-yh-combo_bbede9878b7cfacfdff1a4cb1f63ef24.nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg


I know looks can be deceiving, but he doesn't look particularly sane. We have to do something about background checks for the mentally ill, but the loophole in that is that in order to be declared mentally ill, you have to undergo an assessment and my guess is for those who have never had a run-in with the law, they won't seek the assessment.


That's one ugly woman.

[Oklahomahawk]

That's one ugly woman.

As you all know I'm against abortion, generally speaking, but it's too bad this ahole's mom didn't get one.

[57Brave]

Florida stops state inquiry into PP selling "baby parts". Going back to August, some y'all must feel really duped. Like Rubes at their first fair, the carnival bakers taking all of your money. The Shiney things

[BedellBrave]

As you all know I'm against abortion, generally speaking, but it's too bad this ahole's mom didn't get one.


Did you read he registered to vote as a woman?

[BedellBrave]

Florida stops state inquiry into PP selling "baby parts". Going back to August, some y'all must feel really duped. Like Rubes at their first fair, the carnival bakers taking all of your money. The Shiney things


You are so annoying and disingenuous. The charge against PP is not that they hawked body parts in every state in which they operated - a point that's been clearly made along the way, and yet PP cheerleaders like yourself purposively miss, bringing up these stories as big "gotchas."

[Oklahomahawk]

Did you read he registered to vote as a woman?

No I missed that, I don't really have a comeback for this right now. He's beyond any rational explanation to me.

[50PoundHead]

Did you read he registered to vote as a woman?

Well, he would be the first woman who ever penetrated another woman during a sexual assault. To somehow bring transgenderism into the conversation simply deflects from the real issue here.

[57Brave]

You are so annoying and disingenuous. The charge against PP is not that they hawked body parts in every state in which they operated - a point that's been clearly made along the way, and yet PP cheerleaders like yourself purposively miss, bringing up these stories as big "gotchas."

then what was it that triggered the "inquiry"s?
Because every state red and blue has found no there there

just curious to see where the goal posts have moved to since a) the videos being referenced at the shooting b) it has been pretty much established the past weeks that PP isn't going anywhere. And the attacks on Womens Health programs have been everything from fruitless to embarrassing.

Can your "team" make a point without doctored videos or staged situations. By you know, making a coherent argument for their cause?

[57Brave]

and now Alabama.
Paying PP legal fees to .


Alabama called off a legal battle with Planned Parenthood on Monday after a federal judge last month blocked the state from defunding the reproductive health organization's clinics amid national controversy about its handling of aborted fetal tissue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alabama-planned-parenthood_565ce8bae4b072e9d1c30cc8

from the same article:

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement said it would not conduct a full criminal investigation into the state's 16 Planned Parenthood affiliates after a preliminary inquiry turned up no evidence that they were selling or mishandling fetal remains, according to a report Monday in the Orlando Sentinel newspaper.

[57Brave]

If y'all spent as much time working on social / civic / educational / family support programs to avoid un wanted pregnancies as you do trying to demonize those that see things differently -- perhaps we ( the people to form a more perfect union ?? ) would all gain
These 21st century Crusades are a bore

[BedellBrave]

Well, he would be the first woman who ever penetrated another woman during a sexual assault. To somehow bring transgenderism into the conversation simply deflects from the real issue here.


It doesn't really. It underscores it. The man is mentally troubled.

[57Brave]

No Bedell, it deflect from the real issue s.

There are mentally troubled people - but not all troubled people can get a gun and shoot up those they disagree with

The second thing your point deflects from is the responsibility of the "Pro-Life" movement in this shooting.
And other shootings and bombings at Women's Health Centers.
Yes mental health is a problem --- a health care problem . I don't see any of your "team" addressing that problem

Not to mention, transgenderism is not a " mentally troubled " state. But another classification of people given rights ---- by law.

[BedellBrave]

then what was it that triggered the "inquiry"s?
Because every state red and blue has found no there there

just curious to see where the goal posts have moved to since a) the videos being referenced at the shooting b) it has been pretty much established the past weeks that PP isn't going anywhere. And the attacks on Womens Health programs have been everything from fruitless to embarrassing.

Can your "team" make a point without doctored videos or staged situations. By you know, making a coherent argument for their cause?


Of course the legitimate furor over the videos triggered it - no matter the state. And yes, though the videos show haggling over price (which I'm not sure why you would do over fixed costs) - PP, middle-men, and research operations clearly know how to work within current legal parameters to procure more and more aborted baby parts. It is what it is. Legal and heinous.

[BedellBrave]

No Bedell, it deflect from the real issue s.

There are mentally troubled people - but not all troubled people can get a gun and shoot up those they disagree with

The second thing your point deflects from is the responsibility of the "Pro-Life" movement in this shooting.
And other shootings and bombings at Women's Health Centers.
Yes mental health is a problem --- a health care problem . I don't see any of your "team" addressing that problem


Face it, you wouldn't see it. You don't want to. My team can do and does no right in your sight.

Of course not all mentally disturbed people buy rifles and use them against people they disagree with. Thankfully. I'm not opposed to further restrictions. I'm not a NRA guy. So, whatever. Nevertheless, 50 and OHawk made some good points earlier. Take the matter up with them.

If you want to use that "the Pro-Life movement is responsible" card, then show some integrity and use the same card across the board when crazy people do crazy evil things - be it the Unabomber or whomever.

[BedellBrave]

If y'all spent as much time working on social / civic / educational / family support programs to avoid un wanted pregnancies as you do trying to demonize those that see things differently -- perhaps we ( the people to form a more perfect union ?? ) would all gain
These 21st century Crusades are a bore


^^^ Such pathetic ignorance.

[57Brave]

The Uni-Bomber ?

You're showing your age. Half the people here weren't even born :)

.....


Not all crazy people doing crazy things are pushed over the edge by a doctored video that you a few months ago lauded.
Title I believe was
"We Finance Barbarism" and the focus of the thread was the videos that Dear referenced .
Excuse me, the debunked videos

....

" ^^^ Such pathetic ignorance"
said the man that can't cover his tracks fast enough.

I believe the word used above " deflect"

[BedellBrave]

Just as I expected...

Prefer the homosexual black reporter?

[57Brave]

?

[goldfly]

so the "Americans United for Life" are going after IUDs now under the bull**** excuse of "religious freedom"

cause they claim them to be, and i quote, "life ending procedures"

get the **** out of here with this nonsense

[BedellBrave]

?


Like I said...

[50PoundHead]

It doesn't really. It underscores it. The man is mentally troubled.

I know several transgender individuals who are quite accomplished thank you very much.

[BedellBrave]

I know several transgender individuals who are quite accomplished thank you very much.

Do they pull it off better than this guy?

[50PoundHead]

Do they pull it off better than this guy?

Depends on what you mean by "pull it off." They've transitioned well and are very accomplished in their respective fields. They won't win any beauty contests but when has life been all about physical beauty.

[BedellBrave]

No, it certainly isn't. Nor is it all about being accomplished in one's field.

[57Brave]

Good lord, y'all jump the gun again ..

"A clerical error is to blame for suspected Planned Parenthood shooter Robert L. Dear being listed as a woman on his Colorado voter registration form, officials said Tuesday, a detail that fueled speculation he may have identified as transgender."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/clerical-error-blamed-for-planned-parenthood-attack-suspect#.xbLQBM7kB

[57Brave]

Wow Bedell -- this just about was your point from the minute this happened. Even the use of the word deranged.
Personally , I think you need to exppand your reading list -- because the playbook you've been given hasn't had such a good track record the past ---- oh say, 10-15 years

Right-Wing Media Try to Distract From Abortion Clinic Shooting




When the shooting that killed three at a Colorado Planned Parenthood clinic -- where the alleged killer, Robert Dear, reportedly ranted about "baby parts" after the crime -- occurred, the folks at CNSNews.com, the "news" division of the right-wing Media Research Center, knew what it had to do: change the narrative.

First on the agenda: dismiss the shooter as crazy, despite the fact that no psychological evaluation of Dear has been performed or otherwise made public. CNS articles portray Dear as "an apparently unstable man," highlighted Dear's "several run-ins with police" touted a Republican congressman's suggestion that Dear has "mental problems" and promoted GOP presidential candidates calling Dear a "madman" and "very unstable," not to mention "deranged."

CNS has done this before; it repeatedly portrayed Scott Roeder, killer of abortion doctor George Tiller, as mentally unstable despite the fact that he did not mount an insanity defense at his trial and a psychologist hired by his own defense found Roeder competent to stand trial.

The next step was to separate Dear from the anti-abortion movement, even though he was echoing its attacks on Planned Parenthood. CNS reporter Lauretta Brown countered statements by NARAL Pro-Choice America president Ilyse Hogue condemning the killings and those who apparently inspired Dear with statements from anti-abortion groups denouncing violence.

Brown quoted the Center for Medical Progress' denunciation of the killings -- in which Dear was dismissed as a "violent madman" -- and proudly noted CMP's "undercover videos over the summer showing Planned Parenthood's harvesting of aborted baby parts," but she did not mention that Dear was ranting about "baby parts" during his rampage.

Similarly, Brown highlighted Operation Rescue's statement denouncing the shooting, but she didn't mention that Operation Rescue official Cheryl Sullenger spent time in prison for plotting to blow up an abortion clinic.

Because Hogue specifically called out Operation Rescue president Troy Newman for "using Operation Rescue to call for state-sanctioned execution of doctors who serve women," Brown went further into defense mode on him as well, repeating an earlier Operation Rescue statement that "Newman has never advocated violence against abortion providers or facilities and has instead adamantly encouraged pro-life activists to work through the legal, legislative, and justice systems to bring abortionists who are breaking the law and harming women to justice."

But claiming that abortion doctors should go through the legal system before being executed is still demanding that they be executed, no matter how much Operation Rescue tries to deny it; the statement from Newman's book "Their Blood Cries Out," which Hogue was referencing, does not differentiate between abortion doctors doing their job legally and "abortionists who are breaking the law."

Brown concluded her article with an apparent attempt to justify the shooting and blame Planned Parenthood itself for it by quoting Mother Teresa: "[I]f we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?"

But CNS was not done. Managing editor Michael W. Chapman tried to change the subject altogether with an article on "The latest abortion surveillance report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention," in which "55.4 percent were performed on black or Hispanic mothers." He also wrote a companion article noting that "in New York City 76.4% of the abortions reported by race were of black and Hispanic babies."

Chapman was silent on the ethnicities of the people Robert Dear murdered while apparently inflamed by anti-abortion rhetoric.

[BedellBrave]

Good lord, y'all jump the gun again ..

"A clerical error is to blame for suspected Planned Parenthood shooter Robert L. Dear being listed as a woman on his Colorado voter registration form, officials said Tuesday, a detail that fueled speculation he may have identified as transgender."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/clerical-error-blamed-for-planned-parenthood-attack-suspect#.xbLQBM7kB


Good - at least he doesn't think he's a woman! At least his eyes work okay.

50, is the one who brought up his mental state and most everyone that's not a rabid, leftist homer, agrees that his mental stability is at issue - this is not just a problem with guns or evidence of the evils of Pro-Lifers - the narrative you've peddled from the get-go (predictable clockwork).

[50PoundHead]

Good - at least he doesn't think he's a woman! At least his eyes work okay.

50, is the one who brought up his mental state and most everyone that's not a rabid, leftist homer, agrees that his mental stability is at issue - this is not just a problem with guns or evidence of the evils of Pro-Lifers - the narrative you've peddled from the get-go (predictable clockwork).

I did bring that up and I think more than anything, the mental state of Mr. Dear is what is in play here. I think one can argue, perhaps convincingly, that this is an "oily rags in the basement" situation. One can decry Planned Parenthood and urge its de-funding, but the level of rhetoric over Planned Parenthood has been incendiary to say the least and it may have sent Mr. Dear way around the edge. He was already around the edge, but his previous anti-Planned Parenthood activity appears to have been limited to putting Super Glue in a clinic's locks. When civility is surrendered and everyone adopts a "take no prisoners" attitude, those with little self-control easily fall into the swells of the waves. I want to make it clear that I think both sides--left and right--are engaging in pained indignance which simply p*sses off those of us who believe this is a great country and want to see it continue to move boldly into the future.

[BedellBrave]

^^^ Much I agree with in 50's post - with this major caveat - Not saying you are doing this 50, but criticism against speech that's deemed over the top (by whose standard?) can be a power play, and means of dismissing the message.

I am a huge Flannery O'Connor fan and she was criticized and her writing belittled as being grotesque and her response I think was spot on - she knew what was grotesque, moderns didn't so much and so sometimes you have to draw grotesque pictures and shout. There is a prophetic role to be played whether folks like to hear it or not.

Now, that said, the Pro-Life message is not, "Abortion is murder, therefore murder abortionists." No more than, "Black lives matter, therefore murder cops who murder blacks." The abuse of a hard but truthful message isn't legitimate justification for gutting or silencing that message, imho.

[Oklahomahawk]

^^^ Much I agree with in 50's post - with this major caveat - Not saying you are doing this 50, but criticism against speech that's deemed over the top (by whose standard?) can be a power play, and means of dismissing the message.

I am a huge Flannery O'Connor fan and she was criticized and her writing belittled as being grotesque and her response I think was spot on - she knew what was grotesque, moderns didn't so much and so sometimes you have to draw grotesque pictures and shout. There is a prophetic role to be played whether folks like to hear it or not.

Now, that said, the Pro-Life message is not, "Abortion is murder, therefore murder abortionists." No more than, "Black lives matter, therefore murder cops who murder blacks." The abuse of a hard but truthful message isn't legitimate justification for gutting or silencing that message, imho.

I hate the extreme crap too, but to be honest wasn't the whole "the enemy of my enemy must be my friend" pretty much at the core of our foreign policy throughout the Cold War era? I think it's actually ingrained in our national DNA now. The murder of someone you disagree with is still murder. I hate abortion but killing an abortion worker is murder just the same as what those people claim to be against.

[BedellBrave]

Gobry - link (http://theweek.com/articles/591381/progressives-deplorable-reaction-planned-parenthood-shooting)



"...In a sense, you have to feel sorry for the progressives here. One reason why they're clearly grasping at straws is because what's striking about the pro-life movement is how astonishingly little terrorism it produces. First, let's be clear about one thing: Every single mass movement, no matter how peaceful the aims and methods of its leadership, will have a violent fringe. That's just how human nature works. There was the civil rights movement, and there were Black Panthers. Zionism. Arab nationalism. You name it. Under Apartheid South Africa, the armed wing of the African National Congress conducted acts of sabotage and bombings that killed people, including civilians. If you're anything like me, you find it hard to feel too badly about black South Africans responding with force to Apartheid, which, of course, is precisely my point.

Can you name an organization that is to the pro-life movement as the Black Panthers were to the civil-rights movement, or as the IRA was to the cause of Irish independence? No, you can't, because such an organization doesn't exist.

Psychopaths are around 1 percent of the general population. Roughly half of Americans identify as pro-life, which means that if psychopaths are evenly spread among pro-lifers, there are about one million and a half pro-life psychopaths going around. Not even counting the countless "normal" people who surely have been turned into bloodthirsty maniacs by pro-life rhetoric.

So, how many people have these millions of pro-life psychos murdered over the past 40 years that the pro-life movement has been around? Eight.

Eight people is not nothing. It's also less people killed over 40 years than Nidal Hasan killed in 10 minutes, less than were killed in Columbine High School over the span of an hour.

Aren't progressives supposed to be constantly warning us to be rational about the risks of terrorism? One week ago, it was crazy to be concerned about terrorists sneaking into the West among Middle East refugees, even after terrorists snuck into the West among Middle East refugees. Because the odds of being killed by a terrorist are lower than the odds of being killed by falling furniture!

If anything, the dearth of pro-life terrorism is usually deployed as an argument against pro-lifers. I wish I'd had a nickel for every time a progressive told me that if pro-lifers really believed fetuses are human beings, then they would rise up in arms, because the current abortion regime would rival the Holocaust. In other words, we don't believe what we say we believe — we're hypocrites. (Of course, if we did condone killing abortionists, we would clearly be hypocrites, because that wouldn't be very "pro-life." Heads I win, tails you lose.)..."

[BedellBrave]

Douthat - link (http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/01/why-the-pro-life-movement-opposes-violence/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog+Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body)

[50PoundHead]

I think you can be ardently pro-life and support defunding Planned Parenthood without going the Cruz/Fiorina route. All that kind of rhetoric serves to do is turn up the heat in an unhealthy way.

And, as I said, both sides are doing it. Left-of-Center folks are just as big on giant, evil conspiracies as those on the Right and the rhetoric they often employ is just as reprehensible.

Barry Goldwater once said, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." I don't agree because I believe extremism by its very nature is going to compromise the liberty of someone.

[BedellBrave]

I think you can be ardently pro-life and support defunding Planned Parenthood without going the Cruz/Fiorina route. All that kind of rhetoric serves to do is turn up the heat in an unhealthy way.

And, as I said, both sides are doing it. Left-of-Center folks are just as big on giant, evil conspiracies as those on the Right and the rhetoric they often employ is just as reprehensible.

Barry Goldwater once said, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." I don't agree because I believe extremism by its very nature is going to compromise the liberty of someone.


One man's "ardent" is another man's "over the top" or "dangerous" or "extreme." And note, few would ever view themselves as "extreme." Who gets to decide what's extreme or hate speech?

[50PoundHead]

One man's "ardent" is another man's "over the top" or "dangerous" or "extreme." And note, few would ever view themselves as "extreme." Who gets to decide what's extreme or hate speech?

I'm just saying people in positions of responsibility or seeking to ascend to positions of responsibility should check their own rhetoric. Fiorina's self-righteous display at the one Republican debate had only one purpose and that was self-promotion. We have come to a time in history when somehow being deliberative and circumspect is viewed as weakness while acting like a lunatic qualifies one to be a leader.

And once again, as a denizen of the Left, I find the vocal behavior of many in my village to be equally deplorable.,

[BedellBrave]

50, I don't think we are that far apart in reality. But, I have no problem calling what PP does in regards to abortion, evil and heinous. Nor do I have a problem with Florina or others saying the same thing.

[50PoundHead]

50, I don't think we are that far apart in reality. But, I have no problem calling what PP does in regards to abortion, evil and heinous. Nor do I have a problem with Florina or others saying the same thing.

It's not what she said, it was the over-the-top way in which she said it.

[goldfly]

It's not what she said, it was the over-the-top way in which she said it.

well, other than what she described isn't true

[50PoundHead]

well, other than what she described isn't true

That is part of the "how" for me. What I meant to say is she's entitled to her position.

[BedellBrave]

It's not what she said, it was the over-the-top way in which she said it.


That she showed emotion? Lord forbid anyone should ever show emotion about the mutilation of fetuses and haggling over the "costs" of sending their non-crunched up parts to researchers. Discussing it as one would the a banal business transaction isn't appropriate.

There was nothing wrong with her emotion. There was nothing wrong with what she said. Critique that she wasn't clear in the description of exactly what was said in the video, that's legitimate. I wouldn't call it "lying" like 57 and gold run around doing though.

[AerchAngel]

That she showed emotion? Lord forbid anyone should ever show emotion about the mutilation of fetuses and haggling over the "costs" of sending their non-crunched up parts to researchers. Discussing it as one would the a banal business transaction isn't appropriate.

There was nothing wrong with her emotion. There was nothing wrong with what she said. Critique that she wasn't clear in the description of exactly what was said in the video, that's legitimate. I wouldn't call it "lying" like 57 and gold run around doing though.

Because that is all they have.

Either one doesn't care about babies, heck 57 doesn't care about infanticide, all he cares about is bashing Christians and Conservatives/Republicans losing because he is sheep/lemming, a devil's favorite demon if you get around to it. I've seen my share on other boards and there is one other like him on it. They don't care about people, they are atheist, they want hate, don't care about murder of children, unborn or born. At least Goldfly have some semblance of caring even unborn, but 57 is not like that. To my eyes he is Satan in every conceivable way, he thinks like him, talks like him and only thing he spreads is disgust on here.

My best friend on here is Atheist, but he is NOTHING like 57 and I respect him and his opinions at almost 100% rate while 57 doesn't meet double digits, which leads me to believe he is a demon or a troll.

[goldfly]

Well, he admitted he was a terrorist today

[goldfly]

There was nothing wrong with what she said. ..... I wouldn't call it "lying" like 57 and gold run around doing though.

Well, it wasn't factual

So I would say there is something wrong with what she said

[BedellBrave]

It wasn't precise. She gave the general flow of the video in question like someone who had heard it and was disturbed by it might when telling others. That the left goes all apoplectic I think is more of an indication that her indignation indicts their lack of it.

[50PoundHead]

That she showed emotion? Lord forbid anyone should ever show emotion about the mutilation of fetuses and haggling over the "costs" of sending their non-crunched up parts to researchers. Discussing it as one would the a banal business transaction isn't appropriate.

There was nothing wrong with her emotion. There was nothing wrong with what she said. Critique that she wasn't clear in the description of exactly what was said in the video, that's legitimate. I wouldn't call it "lying" like 57 and gold run around doing though.

There's showing genuine emotion and there is going over the top, which she did. All any of them have to say is "I find Planned Parenthood deplorable and as President, I will recommend that all of their funding be removed from the federal budget." It's kind of funny, in a very sad way, that everyone runs to their side and decry the other side in this stuff. I try not to, but know that I do and I can't help but call this crap for what it is. Plain out-and-out pandering through cheap theatrics. And my tribe does that too.

Fiorina and company certainly have a right to their positions and they can be as emotional as they want to be, but they have to recognize that there is a downside to that. The blatant inaccuracies in her answer just caused a "who is the most anti-abortion candidate" contest that the red meat eaters seem to want these days but does nothing to solve any problem.

[BedellBrave]

How does one solve the problem of callousness? Of the shrug of the shoulders to that which is heinous? The problem of obliviousness in a sea of euphemisms? I recently read MLK's Letter from a Birmingham Jail. So appropriate, imho, to this whole discussion.

[Oklahomahawk]

Bedell, I sent you a PM a couple of days ago, wondering your theological opinion about something. :)

[BedellBrave]

Bedell, I sent you a PM a couple of days ago, wondering your theological opinion about something. :)

Don't see it OHawk.

[57Brave]

I wouldn't call it "lying" like 57 and gold run around doing though.

Never said or thought she was a liar - just wrong.

[57Brave]

Because that is all they have.

Either one doesn't care about babies, heck 57 doesn't care about infanticide, all he cares about is bashing Christians and Conservatives/Republicans losing because he is sheep/lemming, a devil's favorite demon if you get around to it. I've seen my share on other boards and there is one other like him on it. They don't care about people, they are atheist, they want hate, don't care about murder of children, unborn or born. At least Goldfly have some semblance of caring even unborn, but 57 is not like that. To my eyes he is Satan in every conceivable way, he thinks like him, talks like him and only thing he spreads is disgust on here.

My best friend on here is Atheist, but he is NOTHING like 57 and I respect him and his opinions at almost 100% rate while 57 doesn't meet double digits, which leads me to believe he is a demon or a troll.

Satan - demon - troll

geez AA.
I just thought we disagreed