The Hope Above All Hope

[clvclv]

Is that "The Plan" is FINALLY clear - given the Price and Greinke contracts the market has been redefined and "adjusted" to what it's pretty much always reflected.

Young, inexpensive, controllable, high-ceiling starting pitching remains the MOST valuable commodity in the game.

(In case you haven't noticed, the Braves are once again loaded with it.)

[thewupk]

I don't think that's clear at all. I think what's clear is that the current market prices for free agents continues to climb. Just because Greinke and Price signed first doesn't make them more valuable. In fact recent FA signing have shown that hitters have been getting paid more at a production level.

[Heyward]

I agree but if the Braves ever develop a Kershaw/Price/Greinke, etc type i would hope they pay them the money.

[clvclv]

I don't think that's clear at all. I think what's clear is that the current market prices for free agents continues to climb. Just because Greinke and Price signed first doesn't make them more valuable. In fact recent FA signing have shown that hitters have been getting paid more at a production level.

Fight it all you want. When everyone starts throwing $150 million at Cueto, $100+ million at Samardzija, $90 million at Leake, (and on and on) you'll get it.

[thewupk]

Fight it all you want. When everyone starts throwing $150 million at Cueto, $100+ million at Samardzija, $90 million at Leake, (and on and on) you'll get it.

Get what? That's the standard cost of players at that price range, pitchers or not.

[Heyward]

Fight it all you want. When everyone starts throwing $150 million at Cueto, $100+ million at Samardzija, $90 million at Leake, (and on and on) you'll get it.

Thats market value, champ.

EVENTUALLY the Braves will have to sign some players if they ever wanna get good again.

[bravesnumberone]

REMEMBER. We'll get the money to sign those players when we get sellouts at the new park for a 65-win team.

[emk418]

Is that "The Plan" is FINALLY clear - given the Price and Greinke contracts the market has been redefined and "adjusted" to what it's pretty much always reflected.

Young, inexpensive, controllable, high-ceiling starting pitching remains the MOST valuable commodity in the game.

(In case you haven't noticed, the Braves are once again loaded with it.)

Well let's see what happens. Teams don't seem shy about spending big money on SP's instead of paying a premium in players/propsects to get a guy like Shelby. So we'll see what happens but these bigger markets would rather just pay for a guy then trade multiple young players

[NYCBrave]

Is that "The Plan" is FINALLY clear - given the Price and Greinke contracts the market has been redefined and "adjusted" to what it's pretty much always reflected.

Young, inexpensive, controllable, high-ceiling starting pitching remains the MOST valuable commodity in the game.

(In case you haven't noticed, the Braves are once again loaded with it.)

Unfortunately, we're talking about two of the top pitchers in the game, true aces, and number 1 starters. None of caliber which the Braves seemed to have acquired in trades.

[Knucksie]

I don't think that's clear at all. I think what's clear is that the current market prices for free agents continues to climb. Just because Greinke and Price signed first doesn't make them more valuable. In fact recent FA signing have shown that hitters have been getting paid more at a production level.

Blowing smoke out of your ass...as usual. Gee, maybe someone will offer St. Jason $30MM/year, just to prove that you're really Wile E Coyete, Super Genius.

[Enscheff]

Unfortunately, we're talking about two of the top pitchers in the game, true aces, and number 1 starters. None of caliber which the Braves seemed to have acquired in trades.

Sean Newcomb says hi

[thewupk]

Blowing smoke out of your ass...as usual. Gee, maybe someone will offer St. Jason $30MM/year, just to prove that you're really Wile E Coyete, Super Genius.

What does any of that have to do with Jason? Top pitchers and hitters have been signing for 30+ for a few years now. Hitters have been signing for more $/WAR than pitchers. Nobody is wanting to give up young position players in trades. And yet all of that points to pitchers somehow being more valuable?

[GovClintonTyree]

Such a grouchy thread.

Can't everybody just get along?

[Horsehide Harry]

What does any of that have to do with Jason? Top pitchers and hitters have been signing for 30+ for a few years now. Hitters have been signing for more $/WAR than pitchers. Nobody is wanting to give up young position players in trades. And yet all of that points to pitchers somehow being more valuable?

But teams ARE willing to give up hitting. Oakland sent bats to the Cubs. The Red Sox sent bats to the Pads. The Astros sent bats to the Brewers. That's just off the top of my head. Teams don't want to give up any kind of prospects but that's not new. They do anyway when the needs line up.

[UNCBlue012]

But teams ARE willing to give up hitting. Oakland sent bats to the Cubs. The Red Sox sent bats to the Pads. The Astros sent bats to the Brewers. That's just off the top of my head. Teams don't want to give up any kind of prospects but that's not new. They do anyway when the needs line up. who says the Braves have been asking for hitters? At least until now. Seriously. Reports are falsified often.

[thewupk]

But teams ARE willing to give up hitting. Oakland sent bats to the Cubs. The Red Sox sent bats to the Pads. The Astros sent bats to the Brewers. That's just off the top of my head. Teams don't want to give up any kind of prospects but that's not new. They do anyway when the needs line up.

Yes there are some examples but they are in the minority. I think if you look at the overall picture the last 2-3 years that in trades and in the FA market that hitters bringing back more in trades and getting better contracts.

[Horsehide Harry]

who says the Braves have been asking for hitters? At least until now. Seriously. Reports are falsified often.

I don't think they have been. I think it has largely been pitching, pitching, pitching

[Carp]

Yes there are some examples but they are in the minority. I think if you look at the overall picture the last 2-3 years that in trades and in the FA market that hitters bringing back more in trades and getting better contracts.

The largest free agent signings the last couple of off-seasons (to date) have all been pitchers by far. No hitter received a 100 million dollar contract last offseason, while 4 pitchers have already signed 100+ million dollar contracts during this span. And at least 2 more pitchers are primed for 100 million dollar contracts as well. So I don't agree with that statement at all. It seems good pitching is still valued very highly.

[thewupk]

The largest free agent signings the last couple of off-seasons (to date) have all been pitchers by far. No hitter received a 100 million dollar contract last offseason, while 4 pitchers have already signed 100+ million dollar contracts during this span. And at least 2 more pitchers are primed for 100 million dollar contracts as well. So I don't agree with that statement at all. It seems good pitching is still valued very highly.

Look at the quality of pitchers compared to hitters. There have been better pitchers hit the open market the last couple of years so of course those pitchers would get more. When you compare hitters and pitchers who are the same quality wise, the hitters have been getting more money. All you have to do is look at the contracts of Stanton and Trout and see what they got while not even hitting the open market. Think of what Harper is going to get in a couple of years. Those are the types of hitters you should compare the Greinkes, Prices, and Scherzers too.

[nsacpi]

But teams ARE willing to give up hitting. Oakland sent bats to the Cubs. The Red Sox sent bats to the Pads. The Astros sent bats to the Brewers. That's just off the top of my head. Teams don't want to give up any kind of prospects but that's not new. They do anyway when the needs line up.

And the Dodgers sent us Olivera.

[Oklahomahawk]

Such a grouchy thread.

Can't everybody just get along?

Sadly it would seem that they cannot.

[NinersSBChamps]

Sadly it would seem that they cannot.

Never going to happen.

[sturg33]

LOL at clv trying to justify the bizarro world of this front office as some sort of master plan

[Heyward]

LOL at clv trying to justify the bizarro world of this front office as some sort of master plan

I agree with the plan, but the Markakis/Olivera deals dont seem to make much sense given the team wont contend until 2018 at the earliest.

[Carp]

Look at the quality of pitchers compared to hitters. There have been better pitchers hit the open market the last couple of years so of course those pitchers would get more. When you compare hitters and pitchers who are the same quality wise, the hitters have been getting more money. All you have to do is look at the contracts of Stanton and Trout and see what they got while not even hitting the open market. Think of what Harper is going to get in a couple of years. Those are the types of hitters you should compare the Greinkes, Prices, and Scherzers too.

Greinke is a 32 year old pitcher who got twice as much as any hitter in last year's class. Is Cueto some elite pitcher as well? Cause he's gonna get more money than all but about 2-3 hitters this winter. Shark (the 4th best pitcher at best this winter) just signed for reportedly 90 million, right in line with Sandovals contract last winter as the top contract for a hitter.

[smootness]

Greinke is a 34 year old pitcher who got twice as much as any hitter in last year's class. Is Cueto some elite pitcher as well? Cause he's gonna get more money than all but about 2-3 hitters this winter. Shark (the 4th best pitcher at best this winter) just signed for reportedly 90 million, right in line with Sandovals contract last winter as the top contract for a hitter.

Uh, what? Yes, Greinke and Cueto are both elite pitchers.

And everyone knew this year's pitching market was much better than the hitter's market. Just wait until you see the Heyward and Upton deals. And neither of those guys is as good a hitter as Price and Greinke are pitchers.

[Carp]

Uh, what? Yes, Greinke and Cueto are both elite pitchers.

And everyone knew this year's pitching market was much better than the hitter's market. Just wait until you see the Heyward and Upton deals. And neither of those guys is as good a hitter as Price and Greinke are pitchers.

Greinke is sure. But Cueto is hardly an elite pitcher. When the class is better for pitching, that should drive the prices up for the hitters.

[nsacpi]

I think the comparison that has to be made is how much FA hitters who project at X WAR are being paid compared to FA pitchers with similar projections. I've done this comparison the last few off-seasons. Before last off-season pitchers were being paid more. Last off-season hitters were paid more. Too early to tell this off-season. I have been surprised by the deals so far. The Greinke and Happ deals look especially rich.

[clvclv]

The point is (whether traded now or later) the Braves will be absolutely loaded with what everyone will be looking for at a time when the market is barren. If you don't pay through the nose for those second- and third-tier SPs that are left at this point, your 2017 options are...

1,) Stephen Strasburg
2.) Andrew Cashner
3.) Edinson Volquez
4.) Brett Anderson
5.) C. J. Wilson
6.) R. A. Dickey
7.) Jered Weaver
8.) Scott Feldman
9.) Jesse Chavez
10.) Dillon Gee

Here's hoping you don't hope to contend this year or next year and have an important rotation piece get hurt. If that happens, the Braves, Mutts, and Angels could absolutely require you to empty your system.

[Heyward]

Greinke is sure. But Cueto is hardly an elite pitcher. When the class is better for pitching, that should drive the prices up for the hitters.

saw this on another board, not saying Cueto > Greinke, but he's an ace.

From 2011 to 2014, guess who is who.

W-L......GS......K/9......BB/9......HR/9......ERA......WAR
63-23...122.....7.25.....2.21......0.81......3.16.... .16.6
53-25...102.....7.33.....2.38......0.69......2.48.... .13.0

[Carp]

saw this on another board, not saying Cueto > Greinke, but he's an ace.

From 2011 to 2014, guess who is who.

W-L......GS......K/9......BB/9......HR/9......ERA......WAR
63-23...122.....7.25.....2.21......0.81......3.16.... .16.6
53-25...102.....7.33.....2.38......0.69......2.48.... .13.0

I see that this figure conveniently fails to mention # of innings pitched during this span. And let's not act like 2015 doesn't matter.

[Heyward]

I see that this figure conveniently fails to mention # of innings pitched during this span. And let's not act like 2015 doesn't matter.

Again not saying Cueto is better but he's really good, not sure why he struggled with KC so much other than the playoffs where he was lights out in 3 of 4 starts

[smootness]

I see that this figure conveniently fails to mention # of innings pitched during this span. And let's not act like 2015 doesn't matter.

If you want to argue that Cueto isn't elite b/c he is hurt too often, fine. But when he pitches, he is elite. If he's not, then Greinke isn't, either.

[thewupk]

Greinke is a 32 year old pitcher who got twice as much as any hitter in last year's class. Is Cueto some elite pitcher as well? Cause he's gonna get more money than all but about 2-3 hitters this winter. Shark (the 4th best pitcher at best this winter) just signed for reportedly 90 million, right in line with Sandovals contract last winter as the top contract for a hitter.

Greinke is also a 6 WAR pitcher. Shark is a 2.5-3 WAR pitcher. Same as Sandoval going into FA. So yeah they are very comparable. Their ranking in a particular class (best or 4th best) doesn't really matter. What does is their actual value on the field.

[thewupk]

I see that this figure conveniently fails to mention # of innings pitched during this span. And let's not act like 2015 doesn't matter.

Cueto missed most of 2013 but he was over 200 innings the last two years and also 2012. Yes 2015 matters but he was elite in Cincy and "struggled" for 13 starts in KC. So essentially you are ignoring everything he has done since 2011 and going off 13 starts to end 2015 when his BABIP was 343 which is very odd considering the defense KC had. I would make a strong bet his 2016 is very similar to his time in Ciny rather than what he did in his last 13 starts of 2015.