O's and Royals showing interest in Nick the Stick

[Tapate50]

The Royals are still holding out hope of re-signing Alex Gordon, but Markakis appears to be one of their backup plans. The 32-year-old batted .296/.370/.376 with three homers in his first season with the Braves and can surely be had in a trade with Atlanta in full-on rebuilding mode. Cafardo also notes that Orioles manager Buck Showalter "remains a big fan" of Markakis and they could be a potential fit.

[sturg33]

I'd give him away for free if we could shed the contract

[zitothebrave]

If they take his contract on I'd take back the fringiest prospect of them all. If they want money I'd want a decent prospect back.

[Heyward]

KC seems like a perfect fit if they dont retain Gordon.

Depending if we have to eat a chunk of the deal or not.

[Carp]

I wouldn't just give him away for nothing, even if they take his entire contract. He is still a valuable player and a good mentor for the young players.

[Chico]

He still has a lot of value. We won't be eating any salary if we decide to move him.

[The Chosen One]

That's really a shame. I was expecting him to lift weights and come back stronger next season to double his home run output from this past season.

[Horsehide Harry]

Nick for Bubba Starling

[Deester11]

That's really a shame. I was expecting him to lift weights and come back stronger next season to double his home run output from this past season.
Good one Don!

[bravesfanMatt]

I wouldn't just give him away for nothing, even if they take his entire contract. He is still a valuable player and a good mentor for the young players.

That is my thought. Nick has great value and is a good fit for a contending team. Just not the Braves. The farther he gets from neck surgery the more power should return.

[Dalyn]

Getting rid of his contract and getting something of value for him would make it a very good signing and trade. I hope it happens.

[emk418]

I would LOVE to move him. He's a solid player but should be on a contender right now. He might be very attractive to teams like the Orioles or Royals. Very Very reasonable contract. We should be able to get a good prospect for him

[dak]

That's really a shame. I was expecting him to lift weights and come back stronger next season to double his home run output from this past season.

I think he has a good shot at tripling his home run output from last year. Even with that though, I expect his overall value to stay the same or decline a bit. Depending on how you value his defense, he's a 1-2 WAR player at age 31. I'd be very happy to trade him . . . even if we had to send a little $.

I could see something like this happening . . .

Markakis to BAL for LHRP Brian Matusz
Inciarte to CHC for Soler and one or more of their top, near-MLB ready prospects (Contreras, McKinney, Underwood, Almora, etc.)

[cajunrevenge]

I would love to trade him but I wouldn't eat a penny of his contract. I don't know why his OBP spiked this year but I worry that he will revert back to pre Brave form now that he can lift weights to prepare for the season. I think the Braves view him as a good influence on the young players and that's what they value most from him so I doubt he would be traded.


If its the Royals I would love to get back Dyson or Colon. Neither is starter quality but very solid bench players.

[rico43]

Rolll the dice. Send Markakis home to Baltimore for Matusz and Dylan Bundy. Once upon a time, Bundy had a higher ceiling tha Fried, Wisler, Newcomb, Toussaint, etc.

[zitothebrave]

Rolll the dice. Send Markakis home to Baltimore for Matusz and Dylan Bundy. Once upon a time, Bundy had a higher ceiling tha Fried, Wisler, Newcomb, Toussaint, etc.

If Baltimore would do that I'd do that. Matusz is sadly an effective reliever. Not the talent he showed in the past. Bundy 100% is worth the flyer. Health is a concern, so it's a gamble, but if he's healthy, guy has sick stuff. And still is pretty young.

[Coach_Chris]

I'd give him away for free if we could shed the contract

Why? What is the fascination with saving money? The Braves have proved they are not going to spend on MLB talent. Eat the contracts of the older players to set yourself up for future success by trading for young talent.

Wanting the Braves to save money is the same as hoping Coca-Cola can cut costs to bring profit margins up.

[The Chosen One]

Why? What is the fascination with saving money? The Braves have proved they are not going to spend on MLB talent. Eat the contracts of the older players to set yourself up for future success by trading for young talent.

Wanting the Braves to save money is the same as hoping Coca-Cola can cut costs to bring profit margins up.

Because there are decent free agent classes coming in 2+ years. Would rather have more of that money to spend on someone else.

[mqt]

Rolll the dice. Send Markakis home to Baltimore for Matusz and Dylan Bundy. Once upon a time, Bundy had a higher ceiling tha Fried, Wisler, Newcomb, Toussaint, etc.

I know Bundy isn't the prospect he was a couple years ago, but there's just no way Baltimore takes that deal in my opinion, even if we took on the entire contract.

[Julio3000]

That's really a shame. I was expecting him to lift weights and come back stronger next season to double his home run output from this past season.

Ima pour one out for thethe every time he goes yard.

A sixer should get me through the season.

[Carp]

Because there are decent free agent classes coming in 2+ years. Would rather have more of that money to spend on someone else.

I would argue that Markakis' contract shouldn't/won't affect that in any way really.

[TURBO]

Im for sure ok with moving Markakis. But this forum is strange. In another thread we have several posters saying 20 Mil a year is being given out to average players now. Nick is getting 11 I think. Is his contract so bad?

That being said, the smart move is to move him. We arent competing next year and it will help our weak payroll. Hopefully

[rico43]

The contract is what makes him marketable. Three cotrollable years for a proven vet should bring a solid return. The Braves better be damn sure about Mallex first,

[The Chosen One]

Im for sure ok with moving Markakis. But this forum is strange. In another thread we have several posters saying 20 Mil a year is being given out to average players now. Nick is getting 11 I think. Is his contract so bad?

That being said, the smart move is to move him. We arent competing next year and it will help our weak payroll. Hopefully

If 20 million is average, then we will need his 11 million to spend to go along with whatever else we have freed up on payroll to make a run at another player.

[cajunrevenge]

If I thought Markakis would perform like he did in this year in 2017 and 2018 I would be all for keeping him but I am worried he is going to fall off that cliff Melvin and Uggla wentry over and become untradeable. I swear if we end up trading a good player at any point in his contract to help offload his salary because he falls off a cliff I will rage like never before.

[jpx7]

The contract is what makes him marketable. Three cotrollable years for a proven vet should bring a solid return.

If 20 million is average, then we will need his 11 million to spend to go along with whatever else we have freed up on payroll to make a run at another player.

Both of these things. I think the Braves shouldn't pay a huge chunk of his remaining contract just to make him go away; they should only make his contract even more palatable if it means receiving a really good return, instead of a mere solid return. Either way, I feel like—given the way the OF market has developed—Markakis at $11 million per annum has real value to some teams (and certainly more value, at his age, than he has for the Braves). Moreover, as The Don alludes, the Braves—given their proposed "competitiveness window—are a lot less well-positioned to stomach a substantial production drop-off in the final season or two of that deal.


The Braves better be damn sure about Mallex first

I think that's more the case if they're trading Inciarte. You'd know be than I would, to be sure, but it seems like the biggest question-marks surrounding Mallex Smith's big-league future are those regarding his ability to be a capable defender in CF. If Inciarte is still around, I'd think Smith—with his on-base-premised skillset—has good potential to reasonably replicate what Markakis provides in RF (and it's not as if Markakis is a wizard out in RF these days).

[NinersSBChamps]

Yes continue to trade away proven major league players for complete question marks.

[zbhargrove]

If we could trade Markakis... I'd trade Inciarte plus prospects for Soler and Baez in a heartbeat.

[Enscheff]

Yes continue to trade away proven major league players for complete question marks.

Do you ever get tired of posting ignorant comments?

Serious question. Is it what you do to amuse yourself when you're bored?

[jpx7]

Yes continue to trade major league players unnecessary to the Braves' long-term future for cost-controlled prospects with potential.

Agreed.

[NinersSBChamps]

Do you ever get tired of posting ignorant comments?

Serious question. Is it what you do to amuse yourself when you're bored?

He's at worst our second best hitter. Makes zero sense to trade him away.

[keithlaw]

The increased demand for corner outfielders came just in the nick of time

[Enscheff]

He's at worst our second best hitter. Makes zero sense to trade him away.

It makes zero sense to keep him for 3 years when 2 of those years will be spent as a 70 win team.

Anyways, I have a feeling you just post insanely stupid things like that to get reactions out of people. So congrats, you got me.

[jpx7]

Makes zero sense to trade him away.

I assume this is hyperbole, and you can indeed see that—regardless of whether you feel it's ultimately in the Braves' best interests—it at least makes some sense to trade Markakis at this point?

[striker42]

I'm not terribly worried about Markakis falling off a cliff. He's a professional hitter with a good eye. That should let him age more gracefully.

Uggla was all about bat speed so when his bat started to slow he collapsed. Upton was a head case and anything but a professional.

At $11 million a year he's not that bad of an investment. But I would trade him.

[Carp]

It makes zero sense to keep him for 3 years when 2 of those years will be spent as a 70 win team.

Anyways, I have a feeling you just post insanely stupid things like that to get reactions out of people. So congrats, you got me.

I disagree. I think we will indeed be competitive in 2017. And I would suggest there is a small glimmer of hope for 2016 depending on how the rest of the offseason shakes out.

[Oklahomabrave]

I disagree. I think we will indeed be competitive in 2017. And I would suggest there is a small glimmer of hope for 2016 depending on how the rest of the offseason shakes out.

For 2016 Bud Norris is our number 2 starting pitcher.

[zitothebrave]

I disagree. I think we will indeed be competitive in 2017. And I would suggest there is a small glimmer of hope for 2016 depending on how the rest of the offseason shakes out.

If by rest of offseason shakes out you mean we trade Markakis and Sign Justin Upton and sign Scott Kamir, you may be onto something. If we do that we could be a 75-80 win team. We're projected around 68 wins now, but those 2 moves likely put us up to that level.

[Russ2dollas]

I'd want him gone if we clear deal or get a b prospect or better.

But I'm hoping we can get the Cubs to go blockbuster for inciarte and a pitcher. Cubs have a bunch of of prospects that are close and would be blocked by Schwarber inciarte heyward. I'm think soaker plus two close guys and a high ceiling position guy who could be farther

Nick is getting older. He's going to be a 1 war player maybe two. We should be able to replace that.

[clvclv]

Markakis, Aybar, Pierzynski, Norris, Grilli, and Jim Johnson (and even Bourn) all fit the same mold - and do so for a rebuilding team perfectly.

Are they All-Stars? Of course not. However, they're all veterans with track-records of success signed to affordable contracts that make them attractive as Plan B options for more than a few teams that view themselves as potential contenders. Those aren't pieces you just "give away" to clear their salaries. What often gets missed when looking at those kinds of players is that they even provide value to the 2016 Braves. That value doesn't make them "valuable" to those who just look at the numbers. They're here because they hopefully provide you a bridge to the first wave of kids that are coming.

If you're still following the 2017 narrative at this point, you'll never understand it. The only way being competitive in 2017 happens is if The Johns sneak in and land a Cespedes or Upton, 2 or 3 of the young guns make huge strides this season, and prospects like Smith, Swanson, and Albies force their hand. The Markakis types are here in the event they don't. They provide you options that will allow you to keep from rushing the kids while not being black holes. Think about it - how bad might last year have been WITHOUT Nick, A. J., KJ, Uribe, Grilli, and Johnson???

I completely understand feeling like you were "lied to" about 2017 as a target date, but if you really understood the vast wasteland the system had become you knew that was an absolute best-case scenario even IF everything worked out as hoped in anyone's wildest dreams - the veterans signed or traded for performed really well (and stayed healthy in Grilli's case) and you found teams with the right pieces that needed them, the prospects all sped up their timelines, etc..

All those guys are "expendable", inexpensive, and won't be in the way if and when the prospects show they're ready. Even if you're not able to get Top 100 prospects for them, you'll still be able to find someone that can use them that will at least give you International Bonus Slots to add them when you go on the spending spree this July 2nd. Will that save you tons of money? Not if you don't look at the "big picture", but when you step back and really calculate the numbers, a couple million in bonus slots PLUS taking 3 months of those salaries suddenly makes the Maitans awfully cheap when you consider the 100% penalty you get if/when you sign them.

[zitothebrave]

I was thinking of a semi-plausible deal that oculd work out for us.

We trade Markakis and pay for his whole salary this year (which Baltimore can then choose to defer for the rest of the deal or not, their call) to Baltimore for Bundy and Matusz.

We trade Inciarte and Julio for Solar, Baez, and TLS back

We then trade TLS/Jace (whoever gets the better return) to Diamondbacks for prospects.

We then sign Kazmir and Leake.

2016 Braves.

C - Platoon
1B- Freeman
2B - Jace/TLS
3B - Baez
SS - Aybar
LF - Olivera
CF - Mallex
RF - Solar

Bench
other catcher platoon
Garcia
Beckham
Swisher
Bourn

Rotation
Kazmir
Leake
Norris
Wisler
Folty (or whoever the best of those guys are including Bundy)

Pen
CL - Viz
LSU - Matusz
RSU - Johnson
Fill the rest with whoever is ther.e

[Heyward]

If we could trade Markakis... I'd trade Inciarte plus prospects for Soler and Baez in a heartbeat.

Cubs arent trading Soler AND Baez, thats ridiculous.

[Millwood1Hitter]

I'm going outside the box, AGAIN.

If Randy Winn can be traded for Lou Pinella, surely we should be able to get Buck Showwalter for Nick and Fredi.

[smootness]

Cubs arent trading Soler AND Baez, thats ridiculous.

This. And in reference to zito's post, I'd probably rather roll with Teheran and Inciarte than Soler and Baez. And you can't play Soler in RF. It takes away a ton of his value. As a RF, he basically has to absolutely mash to be worth much of anything at all.

[zitothebrave]

Cubs arent trading Soler AND Baez, thats ridiculous.

Not ridiculous at all. Where's Baez gonna play? They have Bryant locking down 3B, Russell has locked down either 2B or 3B. Their top prospect is Gleybar TOrres, a SS, their 3rd rated prospect is Ian Happ, who's an OF/2B.

[sturg33]

Not ridiculous at all. Where's Baez gonna play? They have Bryant locking down 3B, Russell has locked down either 2B or 3B. Their top prospect is Gleybar TOrres, a SS, their 3rd rated prospect is Ian Happ, who's an OF/2B.

And Zobrist for 4 years

[zitothebrave]

This. And in reference to zito's post, I'd probably rather roll with Teheran and Inciarte than Soler and Baez. And you can't play Soler in RF. It takes away a ton of his value. As a RF, he basically has to absolutely mash to be worth much of anything at all.

That's what Soler has to do regardless. It's a gamble to have him and Olivera in the same OF, BUT the potential payoff is insane.

[zitothebrave]

And Zobrist for 4 years

Right totally forgot about that.

I think Baez is dangled immediately. If they really want Julio and really wanted Inciarte we've got 2 pieces they reallly want. Julio is for sure worth more than one of those 2, so I stick to those guys being a trade that could make sense if the Braves want to do it.

[Russ2dollas]

No on Tehran trade.

Inciarte and their favorite of wisler/folty/Blair for soler plus Almora plus candelario plus happ or zagunis

[smootness]

That's what Soler has to do regardless. It's a gamble to have him and Olivera in the same OF, BUT the potential payoff is insane.

But again, Soler's value is limited because of his horrendous defense. Even if he does mash, he's not ever going to be a 6+ WAR guy. While I would obviously take something in the range of 4 WAR, I'd just rather have Inciarte given our current roster makeup.

I prefer not to have anybody in the field who is a butcher, and if you must have one, I want it to be someone who has already proven they will hit...not somebody who didn't even slug .400 last year.

I like Baez's potential more, but his issue is obviously the K's.

I do think either or potentially both could be available in the right deal. Russell is their SS going forward, Bryant pretty much has to play 3B with the number of OFs they have, and Zobrist will likely play 2B. You could put Baez in the OF if Schwarber sticks at C, but if I were them, I'd rather trade Baez and wait on McKinney and Happ.

But if they're going to unload both Soler and Baez, especially in the same deal, they're going to be looking for more than Inciarte and Teheran. And I wouldn't even feel good about giving them that.

[smootness]

No on Tehran trade.

Inciarte and their favorite of wisler/folty/Blair for soler plus Almora plus candelario plus happ or zagunis

Well that's never going to happen.

But those pitchers are not equivalent. Wisler and Blair have far more value than Folty.

Also, Almora's ceiling is basically what Inciarte is now.

[Russ2dollas]

Markakis, Aybar, Pierzynski, Norris, Grilli, and Jim Johnson (and even Bourn) all fit the same mold - and do so for a rebuilding team perfectly.

Are they All-Stars? Of course not. However, they're all veterans with track-records of success signed to affordable contracts that make them attractive as Plan B options for more than a few teams that view themselves as potential contenders. Those aren't pieces you just "give away" to clear their salaries. What often gets missed when looking at those kinds of players is that they even provide value to the 2016 Braves. That value doesn't make them "valuable" to those who just look at the numbers. They're here because they hopefully provide you a bridge to the first wave of kids that are coming.

If you're still following the 2017 narrative at this point, you'll never understand it. The only way being competitive in 2017 happens is if The Johns sneak in and land a Cespedes or Upton, 2 or 3 of the young guns make huge strides this season, and prospects like Smith, Swanson, and Albies force their hand. The Markakis types are here in the event they don't. They provide you options that will allow you to keep from rushing the kids while not being black holes. Think about it - how bad might last year have been WITHOUT Nick, A. J., KJ, Uribe, Grilli, and Johnson???

I completely understand feeling like you were "lied to" about 2017 as a target date, but if you really understood the vast wasteland the system had become you knew that was an absolute best-case scenario even IF everything worked out as hoped in anyone's wildest dreams - the veterans signed or traded for performed really well (and stayed healthy in Grilli's case) and you found teams with the right pieces that needed them, the prospects all sped up their timelines, etc..

All those guys are "expendable", inexpensive, and won't be in the way if and when the prospects show they're ready. Even if you're not able to get Top 100 prospects for them, you'll still be able to find someone that can use them that will at least give you International Bonus Slots to add them when you go on the spending spree this July 2nd. Will that save you tons of money? Not if you don't look at the "big picture", but when you step back and really calculate the numbers, a couple million in bonus slots PLUS taking 3 months of those salaries suddenly makes the Maitans awfully cheap when you consider the 100% penalty you get if/when you sign them.

The diff with nick and the others is that the others are one yr deals. Chuck nick and u can find a vet of to hope he puts it together.

Maybe if we have extra money we can take on someone else's bad deal to get a stud on the cheap. Maybe we get a player in trade who makes us better but is slightly overpaid (again keep trade cost low).

[mqt]

No on Tehran trade.

Inciarte and their favorite of wisler/folty/Blair for soler plus Almora plus candelario plus happ or zagunis

I'd rather have Wisler than Teheran.

[zbhargrove]

Cubs arent trading Soler AND Baez, thats ridiculous.

Actually it was reported that Baez and Soler would have both been involved in a Shelby deal so no... It's not ridiculous. It's far from ridiculous actually. If they got Inciarte then Soler and Baez are blocked with the addition of Zobrist.

It is ridiculous to get both for Inciarte but that's why I said him plus a prospect... Such as a close to ready SP which they could really use.

[Russ2dollas]

Well that's never going to happen.

But those pitchers are not equivalent. Wisler and Blair have far more value than Folty.

I never thought the Miller trade would work.

I agree on pitchers but some ppl love velocity

Cubs need some innings eaters. They need a cheap cf who can be elite on d and be ok hitting. If they get those then all of those guys are blocked. Guys that will be ready 16-17 when they have young options already in those spots who are better.

Soler is way more potential than performance. They want to win now not hope soler puts tools to I game use. Let's them keep Baez as super sub in case of injury

[Russ2dollas]

I'd rather have Wisler than Teheran.

Why? Wisler looks like a good 4 to me. Tehran is cheap and is a two imo

[mqt]

Why? Wisler looks like a good 4 to me. Tehran is cheap and is a two imo

I don't see how Teheran is a two at this point. He's been pretty mediocre.

[smootness]

I never thought the Miller trade would work.

Cubs FO =/= Diamondbacks FO

[zitothebrave]

But again, Soler's value is limited because of his horrendous defense. Even if he does mash, he's not ever going to be a 6+ WAR guy. While I would obviously take something in the range of 4 WAR, I'd just rather have Inciarte given our current roster makeup.

I prefer not to have anybody in the field who is a butcher, and if you must have one, I want it to be someone who has already proven they will hit...not somebody who didn't even slug .400 last year.

I like Baez's potential more, but his issue is obviously the K's.

I do think either or potentially both could be available in the right deal. Russell is their SS going forward, Bryant pretty much has to play 3B with the number of OFs they have, and Zobrist will likely play 2B. You could put Baez in the OF if Schwarber sticks at C, but if I were them, I'd rather trade Baez and wait on McKinney and Happ.

But if they're going to unload both Soler and Baez, especially in the same deal, they're going to be looking for more than Inciarte and Teheran. And I wouldn't even feel good about giving them that.

And it's a valid concern. I am hoping Olivera rocks and we can unload him for someone much younger and long term better,

And it's hard to do better than Julio and Inciarte to be honest. Julio's value is down, but just last offseason you could have gotten much more than SOler and Baez.

[Deester11]

I don't see how Teheran is a two at this point. He's been pretty mediocre. General statement and he had a rough first half, but Teheran is not a mediocre pitcher. I know that you can throw stats, but he's one year removed from being the Braves stopper of losing streaks and an all-star. Your statement should say he's was mediocre last year, but he also turned it around in the second half.

[UNCBlue012]

I don't see how Teheran is a two at this point. He's been pretty mediocre. LMAO. Yes. Teheran is mediocre. Check stats before you state that. 3.44 is NOT mediocre. His first half last year was awful. Second was fantastic.

[mqt]

LMAO. Yes. Teheran is mediocre. Check stats before you state that. 3.44 is NOT mediocre. His first half last year was awful. Second was fantastic.


4.05 FIP in the second half last year. I don't know that I would call that fantastic.

[Heyward]

Not ridiculous at all. Where's Baez gonna play? They have Bryant locking down 3B, Russell has locked down either 2B or 3B. Their top prospect is Gleybar TOrres, a SS, their 3rd rated prospect is Ian Happ, who's an OF/2B.

He'll replace Zobrist as he ages, and there is a thing called depth.

[Heyward]

Actually it was reported that Baez and Soler would have both been involved in a Shelby deal so no..

Source?

I saw Soler, they wouldnt have included both.

Maddon loves versatality, Baez has that.

[Russ2dollas]

The idea is that the Cubs need a low cost defensive ace in cf and pitching. If they get that they essentially have everything. So maybe they overpay to get it.

I'd need more than soler for inciarte. I just worry soler is closer to how he played last yr than he is to his tools. That said inciarte isn't special. I think there is a reasonable chance that if you have mallex plus Almora that one of them gets close to inciarte or maybe better on offense. And gets there by nxt yr.

[zbhargrove]

Source?

I saw Soler, they wouldnt have included both.

Maddon loves versatality, Baez has that.

Well he has been widely reported as available... So your point is moot

[Deester11]

4.05 FIP in the second half last year. I don't know that I would call that fantastic. Let's get real. As I said, there are plenty of stats to say he was indeed mediocre, but the Braves aren't subscribing to your mediocre (although I'm sure Coppy if the right deal were there, JT may be gone), but to a man, they have said they won't sell him short. He's in no way mediocre. Bad year? Yeah. But he's more than a mediocre pitcher.

[smootness]

That said inciarte isn't special. I think there is a reasonable chance that if you have mallex plus Almora that one of them gets close to inciarte or maybe better on offense. And gets there by nxt yr.

I disagree. I mean, he isn't 'special' in that he isn't a star, but he has real value.

My guess is that Mallex is never as valuable as Inciarte is right now.

[Russ2dollas]

I disagree. I mean, he isn't 'special' in that he isn't a star, but he has real value.

My guess is that Mallex is never as valuable as Inciarte is right now.

Of course he has value. But he's a guy who the vast majority of his value is d. He's a league avg hitter at best. But he has value. It would take more than soler

[Carp]

For 2016 Bud Norris is our number 2 starting pitcher.


If by rest of offseason shakes out you mean we trade Markakis and Sign Justin Upton and sign Scott Kamir, you may be onto something. If we do that we could be a 75-80 win team. We're projected around 68 wins now, but those 2 moves likely put us up to that level.


Again, it depends on how the offseason turns out. We are reportedly interested in adding another veteran starter.

While we've seen some good players go out the door in Miller, Simba, and Maybin, we've also added some good major league/ML ready talent in Inciarte, Aybar, Blair, and Newcomb, among others. Add to that a full year from Olivera as well. We should be much improved on offense. Even while losing Miller, you would still expect the pitching to improve a bit overall, particularly the pen.

I don't have any grand illusions about making the playoffs next year. But I don't think 75-80 wins is out of the question depending on how the rest of the offseason shakes out.

[mqt]

Let's get real. As I said, there are plenty of stats to say he was indeed mediocre, but the Braves aren't subscribing to your mediocre (although I'm sure Coppy if the right deal were there, JT may be gone), but to a man, they have said they won't sell him short. He's in no way mediocre. Bad year? Yeah. But he's more than a mediocre pitcher.

I don't think anyone is advocating selling low on Teheran. I just think that it wouldn't be the worst idea to trade him if you could get some assets that might help the team down the line or to make him part of a package to add an impact bat.

[Heyward]

Well he has been widely reported as available... So your point is moot

I asked for a source that Soler and Baez are in the Miller deal.

[Deester11]

I don't think anyone is advocating selling low on Teheran. I just think that it wouldn't be the worst idea to trade him if you could get some assets that might help the team down the line or to make him part of a package to add an impact bat.

I'm not adverse to anything the FO feels is going to help this team for a sustainable future. Right now, Teheran can fit perfectly in it. As crappy as we think he is...let's say he reverts to his old self or half of it...think of the open market and what he could fetch. He's no slouch is what I'm saying. What would these stats bring on the open market? 10 wins 9 Losses 3.99 ERA? How about 3 years and 36 million. I'd say JT is at least worth that.

[Heyward]

Julio's on a really good team friendly deal, the most he'll get is 12-14 mil and thats in 2020 or 2021.

Not saying he's an ace but he did better in the 2nd half, and it drains you pitching on a bad team.

[zitothebrave]

He'll replace Zobrist as he ages, and there is a thing called depth.

Zobrist signed a 4 year deal so you have a commodity you can use to acquire talent you need sitting on the bench as depth for at least 2 seasons for no reason at all? THat doesn't make sense

[bravesfanMatt]

not sure we need to be jumping to trade Julio. Now, I have been on board with trading anyone that can benefit the organization. however, I would rather let Julio pitch lights out for the first half then re-evaluate where we are and what we can do.. Same with Ender/Freeman or who ever.. only person I would care to trade is Nick and/or Swisher..

[Pugfan]

I disagree. I mean, he isn't 'special' in that he isn't a star, but he has real value.

My guess is that Mallex is never as valuable as Inciarte is right now.

I agree. I highly doubt Mallex ever has a WAR over 4. Inciarted has more power much better defender and better contact rates. Inciarte is beast against righties already now just needs to improve against lefties.

[zbhargrove]

I asked for a source that Soler and Baez are in the Miller deal.

I am not going to go find the MLB trade rumors article on my phone just to appease the worst poster of the year (yet again)... But that was reported through the site that was offered before Arizona came in and and made their ridiculous offer. The point is that you told me it's ridiculous that we would ever get Baez and Soler and its simply and obviously not ridiculous at all. Will it happen? Likely not... But not ridiculous. Considering Baez has been floated to many other organizations.

[zbhargrove]

I asked for a source that Soler and Baez are in the Miller deal.

But here's your stupid article just to shut you up, so enjoy and please do actually read it. You're welcome... Straight from a Chicago source too:

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/1166353/report-braves-asking-kris-bryant-potential-shelby-miller-deal

[smootness]

But here's your stupid article just to shut you up, so enjoy and please do actually read it. You're welcome... Straight from a Chicago source too:

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/1166353/report-braves-asking-kris-bryant-potential-shelby-miller-deal

That says Soler or Baez. Not both.

[zbhargrove]

That says Soler or Baez. Not both.

My bad on that but it still refutes his claim that they wouldn't trade Baez because "Maddon loves versatile infielders." The whole argument is he says it's ridiculous to think they would trade both and I think it's very clear that it's not ridiculous as both players are blocked and have already been willing to deal both.

[Horsehide Harry]

My bad on that but it still refutes his claim that they wouldn't trade Baez because "Maddon loves versatile infielders." The whole argument is he says it's ridiculous to think they would trade both and I think it's very clear that it's not ridiculous as both players are blocked and have already been willing to deal both.

I'm with you. Nothing is ever off limits. There are just varying degrees of probability.

Some of this comes from posters who have GM envy - "So and so GM would never make a trade like that because they are too good to be fleeced" yada, yada...

Could you trade Mallex Smith for Trout? The probability of that is very, very, very low but there is no natural or man made law that precludes it as impossible.

Could you trade for both Soler and Baez? Given that both have, at times, been mentioned as available in trade, I would say the odds are reasonably good, especially given the Cubs win now cycle.

[The Chosen One]

I'm with you. Nothing is ever off limits. There are just varying degrees of probability.

Could you trade Mallex Smith for Trout? The probability of that is very, very, very low but there is no natural or man made law that precludes it as impossible.
.

Just need to wait for LAA to hire Dave Stewart as GM after Zona fires him.

[emk418]

I asked for a source that Soler and Baez are in the Miller deal.

I HIGHLY doubt the cubs were willing to give Soler AND Baez for Shelby. If they were, Shelby would be on the Cubs right now

[zbhargrove]

I HIGHLY doubt the cubs were willing to give Soler AND Baez for Shelby. If they were, Shelby would be on the Cubs right now

Not at all... Swanson, Inciarte, and Blair is a much better package than Soler and Baez

[bravesfanMatt]

Not at all... Swanson, Inciarte, and Blair is a much better package than Soler and Baez


agreed.. but I think the point that was being made is that if the Braves were ever presented Baez and Soler for just Miller.. or even Miller and Spier(sp?).. then they would have jumped at it right off..

[emk418]

Not at all... Swanson, Inciarte, and Blair is a much better package than Soler and Baez

I respectfully disagree

[bravesfanMatt]

I respectfully disagree

debatable
both Soler and Baez have had MLB tastes and have not done that well. very high K rates for both. I think that scares some fans off..
Ender/Blair/Swanson can hide behind potential and it makes fans feel more comfortable.

I personally like the Zona trade better.. No doubt Soler and Baez are through the roof in the power department.. they just scare me in other areas.. I am a defense kinda guy too..

[NinersSBChamps]

not sure we need to be jumping to trade Julio. Now, I have been on board with trading anyone that can benefit the organization. however, I would rather let Julio pitch lights out for the first half then re-evaluate where we are and what we can do.. Same with Ender/Freeman or who ever.. only person I would care to trade is Nick and/or Swisher..

At this point why not trade Julio? He is a decent pitcher. Just makes sense to trade him away like everyone else. If it came down to keeping Julio or Shelby I think they made a grave mistake.

[clvclv]

Of course he has value. But he's a guy who the vast majority of his value is d. He's a league avg hitter at best. But he has value. It would take more than soler

Let's see..."league-average hitter who the vast majority of his value is d." The Cubs just gave $185 million for one of those.

Inciarte provides huge surplus value right now. Unless The Johns can get the prospects they WANT (not the ones Jed and Theo want to give up), you don't give him up. Even then, you have to be completely sold on Smith to do so. You don't package him with Teheran and "sell low" on him.

Soler alone isn't close to enough to land Inciarte IMO. Given their high K-Rates, I'm not particularly interested in Soler or Baez to be completely honest, even with their power. If Theo and Jed want Ender and Julio, I'd be more comfortable with Soler, Willson Contreras, Dylan Cease or Pierce Johnson, and Jeimer Candelario.

Chasing all those OFs just because they're ranked higher on MLB Pipeline is crazy. This would be a trade where you start addressing holes at the MLB level...

Soler would address OF power. Contreras gives you your Catcher of the future (starting in 2017), Candelario give you your 3B of the future (starting in 2017), and Cease or Johnson give you an arm to replace Julio in the system.

The rumors are that they'd prefer to deal Soler over Baez, which is OK and fits in this proposal. Candelario is blocked by Bryant AND Baez, so that shouldn't be an issue. The stumbling block is that they say they don't want to move Contreras even though he's blocked by Montero and potentially Schwarber. We don't "want" to move Julio or Ender either - they're inexpensive and controlled through 2020.

If I were Coppy, I'd explain that my job is to make the Braves better, not the Cubs. "I'll give you what you need, but only if I get these pieces that will help me too. None of them figure into your plans over the next 3-4 years if you get Inciarte and Teheran. You have plenty of prospect depth to use in other trades if needed. Take it or leave it."

[clvclv]

As for the thread topic, I'd ask the Royals for Jorge Bonifacio (so he can play with his brother - well maybe not for THAT reason) and Garrett Davila.

[Chico]

At this point why not trade Julio? He is a decent pitcher. Just makes sense to trade him away like everyone else. If it came down to keeping Julio or Shelby I think they made a grave mistake.

Because Shelby had a good year and they felt his stock was at max value. Julio had a down year and his stock took a hit. They're trading players at peak value, for others who's value might be low. Guys like Ender, Arodys, and Ryan Weber will be probably be traded for the same reason. I wouldn't even say that Albies is safe from being traded after the year he had. Sell high and buy low.

[Russ2dollas]

Let's see..."league-average hitter who the vast majority of his value is d." The Cubs just gave $185 million for one of those.

Inciarte provides huge surplus value right now. Unless The Johns can get the prospects they WANT (not the ones Jed and Theo want to give up), you don't give him up. Even then, you have to be completely sold on Smith to do so. You don't package him with Teheran and "sell low" on him.

Soler alone isn't close to enough to land Inciarte IMO. Given their high K-Rates, I'm not particularly interested in Soler or Baez to be completely honest, even with their power. If Theo and Jed want Ender and Julio, I'd be more comfortable with Soler, Willson Contreras, Dylan Cease or Pierce Johnson, and Jeimer Candelario.

Chasing all those OFs just because they're ranked higher on MLB Pipeline is crazy. This would be a trade where you start addressing holes at the MLB level...

Soler would address OF power. Contreras gives you your Catcher of the future (starting in 2017), Candelario give you your 3B of the future (starting in 2017), and Cease or Johnson give you an arm to replace Julio in the system.

The rumors are that they'd prefer to deal Soler over Baez, which is OK and fits in this proposal. Candelario is blocked by Bryant AND Baez, so that shouldn't be an issue. The stumbling block is that they say they don't want to move Contreras even though he's blocked by Montero and potentially Schwarber. We don't "want" to move Julio or Ender either - they're inexpensive and controlled through 2020.

If I were Coppy, I'd explain that my job is to make the Braves better, not the Cubs. "I'll give you what you need, but only if I get these pieces that will help me too. None of them figure into your plans over the next 3-4 years if you get Inciarte and Teheran. You have plenty of prospect depth to use in other trades if needed. Take it or leave it."

I agree with most of your points. I said most of them already.

Your first sentence is laughable. Inciarte and Heyward are nowhere near the same players. Heyward's wrc+ was 21 points higher last year. Inciarte is much more like Ben Revere than Jason Heyward. Again I wouldn't look to move him. But I'm hoping the Cubs are willing to overpay (not dbacks overpay but overpay) to get the missing pieces they need.

[zbhargrove]

agreed.. but I think the point that was being made is that if the Braves were ever presented Baez and Soler for just Miller.. or even Miller and Spier(sp?).. then they would have jumped at it right off..

I don't think they would have jumped right off. They knew that the Cubs and Zona were in a bidding war. They were going to wait to see which one made the biggest offer.

[Carp]

I agree with most of your points. I said most of them already.

Your first sentence is laughable. Inciarte and Heyward are nowhere near the same players. Heyward's wrc+ was 21 points higher last year. Inciarte is much more like Ben Revere than Jason Heyward. Again I wouldn't look to move him. But I'm hoping the Cubs are willing to overpay (not dbacks overpay but overpay) to get the missing pieces they need.

To be fair, Inciarte's 2015 is very, very similar to Heyward's 2014.

[Dunit24]

I would hold onto Inciarte. I wouldn't trade anyone else really except the older guys like Markakis, Swisher, Bourn,AJ, etc..

Why you ask? With a top 3 pick coming up and the organization going after international players in the coming days, its time we start thinking about holding onto these younger players under control and build a team around them.

We will have Freeman, Swanson, Albies, and Inciarte along with Olivera if he pans out. That's a strong and fast core up the middle.

Saying that, who knows, if Cubs offer us a great package or another team for Inciarte, would be foolish not to do it but I absolutely love what Inciarte will bring to this club for now and the future.

[Russ2dollas]

To be fair, Inciarte's 2015 is very, very similar to Heyward's 2014.

I fail to see how a 21 pt wrc+ is similar. Gross numbers are inflated for Inciarte b/c of Dbacks park. Fangraphs has Incriarte at 3.3 WAR and Heyward at 6. Not similar.

[Russ2dollas]

I agree with this. I'm just been arguing it from the other side.

We are both saying keep inciarte unless someone overpays for him. I am just saying you go for it b/c we have a team like the cubs that have the situation where it makes sense to overpay. Especially if they try to get pitching and Inciarte from us, we could be in a position to get a lot of prospects. I know ppl grown at prospects but the Cubs have very talented guys who could play this year or next, so the projection carries less risk.

In no way do I advocate a Simmons style trade for Inciarte. Equal value does not work. I don't want 4 quarters for a dollar. Not with such a cost controlled and long term controlled piece. I'm thinking more of a Miller for Blair and Swanson type over pay.

And we should be strong on that. Yes Inciarte's numbers could go way down playing in ATL. But it's also possible that the deadline comes and CF and or the 4/5 spots are killing the Cubs and they agree to the overpay.

The guys that do not fit this team are Aybar and Markakis IMO.


I would hold onto Inciarte. I wouldn't trade anyone else really except the older guys like Markakis, Swisher, Bourn,AJ, etc..

Why you ask? With a top 3 pick coming up and the organization going after international players in the coming days, its time we start thinking about holding onto these younger players under control and build a team around them.

We will have Freeman, Swanson, Albies, and Inciarte along with Olivera if he pans out. That's a strong and fast core up the middle.

Saying that, who knows, if Cubs offer us a great package or another team for Inciarte, would be foolish not to do it but I absolutely love what Inciarte will bring to this club for now and the future.

[smootness]

I fail to see how a 21 pt wrc+ is similar. Gross numbers are inflated for Inciarte b/c of Dbacks park. Fangraphs has Incriarte at 3.3 WAR and Heyward at 6. Not similar.

He was talking about Heyward's 2014, not 2015.

[Russ2dollas]

He was talking about Heyward's 2014, not 2015.

missed that. but that is cherry picking his second to worst year, wrc+ is still 10 points higher, and he didn't get paid 20+ million that year.

[Carp]

I fail to see how a 21 pt wrc+ is similar. Gross numbers are inflated for Inciarte b/c of Dbacks park. Fangraphs has Incriarte at 3.3 WAR and Heyward at 6. Not similar.

Inciarte's 2015 wrc+ was 100. Heyward's 2014 was 110. So not an extreme difference there.

[Heyward]

Not at all... Swanson, Inciarte, and Blair is a much better package than Soler and Baez

I disagree.

Baez would start at 2nd or SS right away and Soler in LF.

We have plenty of good pitching prospects.

[Russ2dollas]

Inciarte's 2015 wrc+ was 100. Heyward's 2014 was 110. So not an extreme difference there.

not by number but by degree. to use fangraphs as an example that is essentially the difference between an avg hitter and an above average hitter.

[Heyward]

That says Soler or Baez. Not both.

Yep, Chicago isnt putting Baez AND Soler in the same deal, if they did, both would be in Atlanta already.

[Enscheff]

Inciarte's 2015 wrc+ was 100. Heyward's 2014 was 110. So not an extreme difference there.

Guys, just stop. Inciarte is nowhere near the player Heyward is, was, or will be.

Comparing Heyward's worst non-injured season to Inciarte's league average sophomore performance is laughable. Inciarte will likely never touch a wrc+ of 110, so let's just drop it.

Inciarte's value comes from defense and being cheap. He is not a 5 win player, no matter what any metric somehow calculated, and he will be lucky to settle in as a 2-3 WAR guy going forward. If some team like the Cubs would be willing to give up a potential impact bat for him, I think the Johns would be crazy not to make the deal.

[smootness]

Guys, just stop. Inciarte is nowhere near the player Heyward is, was, or will be.

Comparing Heyward's worst non-injured season to Inciarte's league average sophomore performance is laughable. Inciarte will likely never touch a wrc+ of 110, so let's just drop it.

Inciarte's value comes from defense and being cheap. He is not a 5 win player, no matter what any metric somehow calculated, and he will be lucky to settle in as a 2-3 WAR guy going forward. If some team like the Cubs would be willing to give up a potential impact bat for him, I think the Johns would be crazy not to make the deal.

This is a lot of absolutes from someone who doesn't really know. I mean, Inciarte could be worth 5 wins. I tend to think BR's value of him was overstated by a little, but at the same time, I'll go with a formula that's proven to actually be a pretty good indicator in the past over someone just saying that based off a gut feeling.

And Inciarte can improve, I don't know why people think that can't happen. He OPS'd over .800 as a 21-year-old in A+ and in an admittedly small sample in AAA as a 23-year-old. I don't think he's ever going to be much more offensively than he has been, but it's not out of the question he reaches a 110 wRC+.

[buck75]

Was this thread about Markakis or Swisher or something else?

[Heyward]

Was this thread about Markakis or Swisher or something else?

Markakis turned into something else

[Julio3000]

Was this thread about Markakis or Swisher or something else?

Such is the power that Jason Heyward wields. This thread was about the guy who replaced Jason Heyward, and turned into a thread about the guy who was traded for the guy who was traded for Jason Heyward and the guy who is being replaced by Jason Heyward.

[buck75]

Markakis turned into something else

I wish that he has morphed into Ender. Then we could possibly trade one of them.

[buck75]

Such is the power that Jason Heyward wields. This thread was about the guy who replaced Jason Heyward, and turned into a thread about the guy who was traded for the guy who was traded for Jason Heyward and the guy who is being replaced by Jason Heyward.

I guess I get it.