Oregon

[57Brave]

Just for a second consider a group of not white not males occupying a federal building armed and threatening violence if forced to leave.

Just for a second consider -------- then come back and tell me about how if you don't aquiesce to the cops they (cops- the man if you will) have the right to do as they please.

Just for a second consider that last week a Cleveland policeman got off scott free for shooting a 12 yr old black kid for --- reason du jour

Just for a second understand that today the proverbial shoe is on the proverbial other foot

and
the world is watching

[57Brave]

... except for maybe Saudi Arabia --- you know the 52nd state

[57Brave]

Jason Chesnut
‏@crazypastor

Thank God none of those white men were armed with pellet guns in a park. They would have been taken down immediately.

#OregonUnderAttack

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXzc_9zWAAAdcQB.jpg

[57Brave]

Syria isn't the only place with bands of militia brigands roaming around.


http://www.vox.com/2016/1/3/10703712/oregon-militia-standoff … #terrorism #OregonUnderAttack

[57Brave]

Do we now ban all Christians from entering the US ?

or continue giving them tax exemptions ?

[Garmel]

You did read the back story to what caused this to happen, 57? If these ranchers who were imprisoned were African-American this would be a national outrage to you libs.

[mossy]

Jason Chesnut
‏@crazypastor

Thank God none of those white men were armed with pellet guns in a park. They would have been taken down immediately.

#OregonUnderAttack

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXzc_9zWAAAdcQB.jpg

Pathetic cheap shot, but that's what I expect from scum like you. I seem to remember a thread when all I asked for was prayers in my community, and you participated in hijacking it when your own personal agenda.

How many shots have been fired today? I bet you are sad no white people have died yet.

[57Brave]

back story -- oh, my bad

actually I hope no one gets shot. There or Chicago, or Sandy Hook or Aurora Colorado or your back yard - I do hope they are ignored and starved out
yeah, let's have a discussion on
#pathetic
perhaps we start here



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sedition

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/treason?s=ts

[57Brave]

Pathetic cheap shot, but that's what I expect from scum like you. I seem to remember a thread when all I asked for was prayers in my community, and you participated in hijacking it when your own personal agenda.

How many shots have been fired today? I bet you are sad no white people have died yet.

not that it is any of my business - but what have you done to prevent the next catastrophe that befell your neighbors -- outside of a symbolic show ?
hope everyone was impressed by your piety

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A14-26&version=NKJV

[57Brave]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115


it seems to have gotten lost but, the building occupied was closed for the holidays and gave little resistance when being overtaken... whatever
hard to believe anyone would have the stones trying to justify --- this ridiculous publicity stunt.

Like I said, if they weren't white - they'd be dead already
you can look it up

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CX1pMfZUEAAJeX3.jpg
////

any attempt to try to argue this away is, #pathetic

[57Brave]

Speaking of pathetic, let's look at the people that aboveposters are defending.
Because frankly, I don't think they would actually in real life agree with this statement

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/04/24/cliven-bundys-outrageous-comments-about-the-negro/?tid=ss_tw

[57Brave]

Cornelia ‏@PaladinCornelia 42m42 minutes ago

Armed men with nothing better to do have taken over a VISITOR CENTER at a friggin' BIRD SANCTUARY. #DERP

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CX1kpx2UkAAu3nO.png

[Garmel]

Speaking of pathetic, let's look at the people that aboveposters are defending.
Because frankly, I don't think they would actually in real life agree with this statement

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/04/24/cliven-bundys-outrageous-comments-about-the-negro/?tid=ss_tw

:facepalm: This is has nothing to do with Bundy. You have no idea what the people from that area are putting up with from the feds. I do. I have family that live there that were ranchers. The key word there is "were". While I don't condone that kind of action I can understand the frustration from these people. Before you run your yap why don't you educate yourself to what the government is doing to these people. Try to actually learn something instead of putting up stupid memes and ridiculous quotes from left wing whack sites.

[57Brave]

Oh, they are frustrated.
Why didn't anyone tell me that ?

Kinda like the guy selling cigarettes on the streets of NY that got choked by the cops.
If I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, you were of the ones that expressed the feeling that had he done what he was told by the authorities ...
Was he frustrated too?

I know plenty about the back story -- a bunch of people were told to do something they didnt want to do and like a bunch of petulent entitled children horded weapons and captured bird sanctuary.
pretty simple really

However if they were foreign or not white, the perception would be a little different.

Does the name Ammon Bundy mean anything to you ?

[57Brave]

I have friends that "were" citizens of Detroit --

Do my friends get a pass if they stage an armed occupation of a government building ?

I'm sure you get that point

[57Brave]

Beginning to think anything that flies in the face of RW delusion gets dismissed as "liberal sites"

from Drudge web site :

In phone interviews from inside the occupied building Saturday night, Ammon Bundy and his brother, Ryan Bundy, said they are not looking to hurt anyone. But they would not rule out violence if police tried to remove them, they said.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/drama_in_burns_ends_with_quiet.html

[Garmel]

Oh, they are frustrated.
Why didn't anyone tell me that ?

Kinda like the guy selling cigarettes on the streets of NY that got choked by the cops.
If I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, you were of the ones that expressed the feeling that had he done what he was told by the authorities ...
Was he frustrated too?

I know plenty about the back story -- a bunch of people were told to do something they didnt want to do and like a bunch of petulent entitled children horded weapons and captured bird sanctuary.
pretty simple really

However if they were foreign or not white, the perception would be a little different.

Does the name Ammon Bundy mean anything to you ?

Obviously you don't know the back story. If these two were African-Americans who had served their time and another judge came in and said, "They didn't serve long enough. Back to prison you go." you libs would be losing your minds right now. However, I must say I don't understand how libs such as yourself who defend criminals even when they're dead wrong really don't give a damn when the feds abuse a landowner's property rights. I also don't remember when people who belonged to the Black Lives Matters group who were killing cops were ever called seditious or terrorists by you. I don't remember that. Refresh my memory if I'm wrong.

[Garmel]

Beginning to think anything that flies in the face of RW delusion gets dismissed as "liberal sites"

from Drudge web site :

In phone interviews from inside the occupied building Saturday night, Ammon Bundy and his brother, Ryan Bundy, said they are not looking to hurt anyone. But they would not rule out violence if police tried to remove them, they said.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/drama_in_burns_ends_with_quiet.html

I like it when you call others delusional. Dude, even most of the leftists on this site think you're a crackpot.

[57Brave]

"... people who belonged to the Black Lives Matters group who were killing cops "
what ?

no one is arguing the "back story" what is at issue is the front story. Armed white men occupied a government building.
Is that what people mean when they accuse another of "deflecting "?

this from Washington Post earlier :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/03/what-spurred-the-armed-occupation-of-a-federal-wildlife-refuge-in-southeast-oregon/?postshare=8751451878978781&tid=ss_tw

“These men came to Harney County claiming to be part of militia groups supporting local ranchers,” Ward said in a statement. “When in reality these men had alternative motives, to attempt to overthrow the county and federal government in hopes to spark a movement across the United States.”
-------------------------------------------------------

This is what others accuse Sharpton and Jesse JAckson of
correct?

[MrShwag]

Boy this media coverage of the Oregon situation is really bad.. they won't show any of the burning buildings and rampant looting on the news.

[sturg33]

57 believe the government owns all land and all people

[57Brave]

I sympathize with the Hammonds. To a point.

On the other hand, I hear a lot of talk about inner city people that they should move if the situations prove difficult. Or if someone lives in a bad neighborhood they should simply move.
Well the same applies to the Hammonds and the Bundys. Or me for that matter. If the situation is bad either change it peacefully or find another line of work.
Or to your way of thinking does that only apply to people of color ?


The Bundy Family symbolize everything that is wrong with Right Wing anti-government movement.
Just like armed black groups of the early 70's symbolized everything that was wrong with the Black Pride movement
Or the Weathermen symbolized everything wrong with the anit war movement of the same period
......

But for Chists Sake, the building is a Bird Sanctuary Welcome center in the middle of nowhere that was closed for the holidays. C'mon man
Even you have to admit that is kinda lame

[50PoundHead]

It's beyond lame. "Look at us! We own guns!"

[Oklahomahawk]

It's beyond lame. "Look at us! We own guns!"

Have any of the laws, or rules, or practices, or anything else really, that Clive's boy and his friends are pissed off about, changed since Obama became president? I am not up on what all this is about so they may really have a point (or may not) I'm really just asking for some facts here. After we establish a baseline of some actual truths I may (or may not) comment more.

[50PoundHead]

Have any of the laws, or rules, or practices, or anything else really, that Clive's boy and his friends are pissed off about, changed since Obama became president? I am not up on what all this is about so they may really have a point (or may not) I'm really just asking for some facts here. After we establish a baseline of some actual truths I may (or may not) comment more.

I honestly don't know. There's been an on-going war in the West between ranchers and environmental types over the past 100 years and this is an outgrowth of that. I suppose that any time the BLM changes its mind on a land-use issue, it becomes, by extension to these folks, a direct order from the President (in this case Obama). The other side reacts as goofily, just not with a display of firearms.

I'm commenting more about the parading around with guns more than anything else. It just seems stupid.

[The Chosen One]

Everytime I see BLM

I get BlackLivesMatter and Bureau of Land Management mixed up.

:facepalm:

[gilesfan]

I honestly don't know. There's been an on-going war in the West between ranchers and environmental types over the past 100 years and this is an outgrowth of that. I suppose that any time the BLM changes its mind on a land-use issue, it becomes, by extension to these folks, a direct order from the President (in this case Obama). The other side reacts as goofily, just not with a display of firearms.

I'm commenting more about the parading around with guns more than anything else. It just seems stupid.

THe issue to me is the gov't is going after their land because they want the oil/natural resources and aren't properly compensating the farmers. It's basically the gov't saying we want that land because we can make a **** ton of money on it so we are going to just take it.

[50PoundHead]

THe issue to me is the gov't is going after their land because they want the oil/natural resources and aren't properly compensating the farmers. It's basically the gov't saying we want that land because we can make a **** ton of money on it so we are going to just take it.

As I understand it, it is land the ranchers are leasing and the BLM is terminating the leases.

[gilesfan]

As I understand it, it is land the ranchers are leasing and the BLM is terminating the leases.

http://www.infowars.com/hammonds-targeted-because-government-wants-to-steal-their-land/

Also, many of the leases were forced onto these ranchers so they could continue to farm.

And an even worse look for the government is allowing a judge to return those two guys to jail for an additional 5 years.

And while, I don't agree with the "armed takeover," just a note that these buildings were vacant and no property or persons have been injured.

[weso1]

liberals storm government buildings in protest all the time and have to be escorted out. Funny we didn't hear the same grump from 57 during the Wisconsin union protests. Code Pink is constantly doing stupid crap.

[57Brave]

liberals storm government buildings in protest all the time and have to be escorted out. Funny we didn't hear the same grump from 57 during the Wisconsin union protests. Code Pink is constantly doing stupid crap.

armed ?

[gilesfan]

As I understand it, it is land the ranchers are leasing and the BLM is terminating the leases.

Here is a longer version:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

[mossy]

http://www.infowars.com/hammonds-targeted-because-government-wants-to-steal-their-land/

Also, many of the leases were forced onto these ranchers so they could continue to farm.

And an even worse look for the government is allowing a judge to return those two guys to jail for an additional 5 years.

And while, I don't agree with the "armed takeover," just a note that these buildings were vacant and no property or persons have been injured.

Or burned or looted.

[weso1]

armed ?

There have been shootings at occupy wall street events. So yeah at least some of them were armed. This protest will likely wind up being less deadly than the occupy wall st protest. And less poopy.

[Oklahomahawk]

...And less poopy.

You say that like it's a good thing.

[jpx7]

Definitely a fraught issue. National Forest management is weird, because it's not pure (or mostly pure) nature-conservation (like National Parks or Monuments), but instead a domain of highly-regulated resource-extraction.

[sturg33]

There have been shootings at occupy wall street events. So yeah at least some of them were armed. This protest will likely wind up being less deadly than the occupy wall st protest. And less poopy.

Don't forget the Ferguson or Baltimore "protests"

[zitothebrave]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/

And

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/ammon_bundy_exudes_calm_as_he.html#incart_big-photo

Hooray for domestic terrorism!

[sturg33]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/

And

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/ammon_bundy_exudes_calm_as_he.html#incart_big-photo

Hooray for domestic terrorism!

What makes this terrorism? And when is something like this OK? For example, was the revolution OK or was it domestic terrorism?

Not picking a fight - genuinely asking where we draw the line

[zitothebrave]

What makes this terrorism? And when is something like this OK? For example, was the revolution OK or was it domestic terrorism?

Not picking a fight - genuinely asking where we draw the line

The revolution was terrorism for sure.

And the fact that the nearby town isn't having school because they're scared of these people clearly makes them terrorists. They've got people in a watch tower, they've got people standing guard. If they had a tie to ISIS people would be ****ting themselves.

[57Brave]

There have been shootings at occupy wall street events. So yeah at least some of them were armed. This protest will likely wind up being less deadly than the occupy wall st protest. And less poopy.

a random person in a crowd with a handgun - (as wrong as I find it) is not equivalent to (another false notion of both sises do it - if you will) organized armed guards at the entrance gates and sharp shooters in fre towers and a promise to kill and be killed
there is armed then, there is armed

C'mon Wes you know that
----

Well, organized until it was revealed they forgot to bring snacks

[Krgrecw]

a random person in a crowd with a handgun - (as wrong as I find it) is not equivalent to (another false notion of both sises do it - if you will) organized armed guards at the entrance gates and sharp shooters in fre towers and a promise to kill and be killed
there is armed then, there is armed

C'mon Wes you know that
----

Well, organized until it was revealed they forgot to bring snacks



Don't people have a right to be armed? Until these people point thier weapons at others it's no worse than what the liberals did in the Wisconsin state house.

[jpx7]

Don't people have a right to be armed? Until these people point thier weapons at others it's no worse than what the liberals did in the Wisconsin state house.

That was ****ed up, too.

[Krgrecw]

That was ****ed up, too.

Yeah it was. But 57 didn't get his panties in a wad over that.

[57Brave]

Don't people have a right to be armed? Until these people point thier weapons at others it's no worse than what the liberals did in the Wisconsin state house.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE

[57Brave]

Don't people have a right to be armed? Until these people point thier weapons at others it's no worse than what the liberals did in the Wisconsin state house.

you did invoke the word weapons, correct?

I think you answered your own question
////

as far as a right to be armed, yes they do. In a "well regulated" sense.

I see this episode all about anti-regulation as most all RW causes.
Don't Tread On Me and all that illiterate - pie in the sky sophomoric BS

[Oklahomahawk]

OK so if I have this straight these nimrods hate the government so much and are so ticked off at its stupidity and excesses that they decided to "take action and make a point" for freedom. Is this fairly close?

[50PoundHead]

OK so if I have this straight these nimrods hate the government so much and are so ticked off at its stupidity and excesses that they decided to "take action and make a point" for freedom. Is this fairly close?

'bout it.

[Garmel]

OK so if I have this straight these nimrods hate the government so much and are so ticked off at its stupidity and excesses that they decided to "take action and make a point" for freedom. Is this fairly close?

This is the kind of crap why you and I get into it on occasion. I like how you go on about others being brainwashed(especially Christians) and then you type Daily Kos/Huffpo/TPM garbage. Try to educate yourself to what's going on to ranchers across the nation.

[goldfly]

if they were brown or black, they would already be in jail or dead

[57Brave]

Try to educate yourself to what's going on to ranchers across the nation.


http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/?ex_cid=538fb

[zitothebrave]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/?ex_cid=538fb

To add to that. The fee to graze on BLM land, is 1.69 per animal per month. What are the odds they wouldn't pay a heck of a lot more in property taxes or to buy the property than they're paying to graze on federally maintained lands? Is it the best system? Probably not. But it could be way more expensive. I know folks who rent out their land for cattle grazing, and I bet they didn't only receiving 200 bucks for it.

[57Brave]

Imagine the Hammonds face palm today - when only 4-5 days ago they stood a chance of receiving a Presidential pardon (?)
The more info that comes out -- this whole stunt is just surreal. Down to them forgetting to pack a lunch
and this :

emptywheel ‏@emptywheel 9m9 minutes ago

emptywheel Retweeted Michael Calderone

Media outlet proves its "objectivity" by calling valet car and construction owner-run protest "ranchers"

......

I mock

[Garmel]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/?ex_cid=538fb

http://www.texastribune.org/2015/11/17/red-river-landowners-take-battle-feds-court/ Do you want more examples? I have plenty. Like I said I actually have seen this first hand. I know what I'm talking about. You don't. Damn, I wish these ranchers were African-American....wait, i know. Let's make them Muslims. You'd actually give a **** then.

[Garmel]

Let me be clear on one thing. While I can sympathize with their position I do not believe they have a right to take over a federal building. As of now they haven't pointed their weapons at anyone. The minute they do they need to be mowed down. However, If both sides keep their cool this can be be solved peacefully.

[Oklahomahawk]

This is the kind of crap why you and I get into it on occasion. I like how you go on about others being brainwashed(especially Christians) and then you type Daily Kos/Huffpo/TPM garbage. Try to educate yourself to what's going on to ranchers across the nation.

I do not read the Huffpo or the DailyKos and while I may know what the TPM is I am not familiar with it in abbreviation form. Why don't you educate me so that we don't "get into it" about this. I do not see where I have been overly harsh to anyone here, except those who do stupid stuff like this. Go ahead and tell me how things are for ranchers. My wife has so relatives who ranch up in the sticks of OK. Tell me your side and we'll go from there. Fair enough?

[57Brave]

then why are you here ?

You want to talk about ranchers rights - that is all well and good. But you yourself just made the distinction between the issues of the occupiers and the plight of western ranchers.

Guess this means I get to bring up how the (R) Governor of Michigan poisoned the drinking water in Flint , Michigan.
There too we can talk about government overreach --
I mean after all, I warned y'all he was a dick 5-6 years ago.

[BedellBrave]

I'm late to the party and am not up on the story other than on one point: the Bundies aren't Christians, from what I know.

[The Chosen One]

I do not read the Huffpo or the DailyKos and while I may know what the TPM is I am not familiar with it in abbreviation form. Why don't you educate me so that we don't "get into it" about this. I do not see where I have been overly harsh to anyone here, except those who do stupid stuff like this. Go ahead and tell me how things are for ranchers. My wife has so relatives who ranch up in the sticks of OK. Tell me your side and we'll go from there. Fair enough?

Remember this guy

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/13/article-2603026-1D103FEC00000578-811_634x439.jpg

[BedellBrave]

FYI: Link (http://www.opb.org/news/article/explainer-the-bundy-militias-particular-brand-of-mormonism/)

[Oklahomahawk]

Remember this guy

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/13/article-2603026-1D103FEC00000578-811_634x439.jpg

Isn't that Ringo??? I don't know him but I do recall he was one of Clive's sniper types back when he should have been nailed by the Feds. Personally I think his little shenanigan was worse than what's going on in Oregon right now. At least these guys waited until it was Winter and noone will (hopefully get hurt) by their little statement, other than the fact that they didn't properly lay in provisions when this all started. To be totally honest after all I ate over the holidays I should probably go stand guard with them for a few days, to try and lose a few pounds (since they allegedly forgot to bring snacks. Apparently one of Obama's czars must have been in charge of catering for this.

[Oklahomahawk]

I'm late to the party and am not up on the story other than on one point: the Bundies aren't Christians, from what I know.

Careful you judgmental SOB!!! :icon_biggrin:

[Garmel]

I'm late to the party and am not up on the story other than on one point: the Bundies aren't Christians, from what I know.

Because they're Mormons?

[BedellBrave]

Because they're Mormons?


Yep. Mormons aren't Christians.

[Garmel]

Yep. Mormons aren't Christians.

Uh, yeah they are. Their ideas seem a little strange for mainstream Christians but they are Christians. Come on, Bedell. Don't be small-minded. I've dealt with that enough on this thread.

[zitothebrave]

Uh, yeah they are. Their ideas seem a little strange for mainstream Christians but they are Christians. Come on, Bedell. Don't be small-minded. I've dealt with that enough on this thread.

Mormonism is a really successful cult.

[BedellBrave]

Uh, yeah they are. Their ideas seem a little strange for mainstream Christians but they are Christians. Come on, Bedell. Don't be small-minded. I've dealt with that enough on this thread.


I'm not being small-minded, nor am I denigrating their beliefs. I'm speaking historically and theologically. I can call myself a Buddhist, but that doesn't make me one. Mormons may call themselves Christians, but when you deny fundamental catholic (meaning "universally held") doctrines/tenets of Christianity, you do not have the historical/theological right to call yourself "Christian" (it is dishonest). Since nearly the beginning of the Christian Church, those core, orthodox tenets have been spelled out in the great Ecumenical Creeds of the Church - like the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. Mormons do not hold to such. Their theology (doctrine of God), their Christology (doctrine of Christ), their soteriology (doctrine of salvation), their eschatology (doctrine of last things), etc., are all at odds with the historic, orthodox Christian Faith. Christianity isn't a waxed nose that can be molded into just any old form one likes. It's has it's distinguishing characteristics (theology and piety). Mormonism has a different theology and piety. And that's fine and all. it just isn't Christian.

[BedellBrave]

Mormonism is a really successful cult.


Yep.

[50PoundHead]

I just think Ammon Bundy is gunning for the Joe the Plumber role in the 2016 election cycle.

[Garmel]

Christianity isn't a waxed nose that can be molded into just any old form one likes. It's has it's distinguishing characteristics (theology and piety).

They're classified as Christians. Christianity can be molded. That's the whole point. Anybody who comes to Jesus is a Christian even if it conflicts with your beliefs.

[BedellBrave]

They're classified as Christians. Christianity can be molded. That's the whole point. Anybody who comes to Jesus is a Christian even if it conflicts with your beliefs.


But what "Jesus" - that's the point (or an aspect of it). Christianity can't mean just any old thing or it means nothing. And it's not that the Bundy's beliefs conflict with mine - mine aren't the measure - it's that they conflict with the core doctrines of what is Christianity.

Certainly there are differences of opinion on what could be considered secondary, tertiary, etc., doctrines. But not those core teachings that have marked the Church through the centuries and across the globe. Let me give you an example. I could call myself a Trinitarian Muslim. But that wouldn't make me a Muslim because a decidedly non-Trinitarian Unitarianism is a defining doctrine of Islam.

Let Mormons believe what they are convicted to believe. But let's have the historical honesty to call it something other than Christianity. That's all I am saying.

[Oklahomahawk]

But what "Jesus" - that's the point (or an aspect of it). Christianity can't mean just any old thing or it means nothing. And it's not that the Bundy's beliefs conflict with mine - mine aren't the measure - it's that they conflict with the core doctrines of what is Christianity.

Certainly there are differences of opinion on what could be considered secondary, tertiary, etc., doctrines. But not those core teachings that have marked the Church through the centuries and across the globe. Let me give you an example. I could call myself a Trinitarian Muslim. But that wouldn't make me a Muslim because a decidedly non-Trinitarian Unitarianism is a defining doctrine of Islam.

Let Mormons believe what they are convicted to believe. But let's have the historical honesty to call it something other than Christianity. That's all I am saying.

Not trying to get any more involved in this than I already am, but don't Mormoms believe (among whatever other things they believe) that Jesus and Lucifer were/are brothers, rather than Jesus being the Son of God and Lucifer being a fallen archangel? Or am I getting them confused with someone else?

[BedellBrave]

Not trying to get any more involved in this than I already am, but don't Mormoms believe (among whatever other things they believe) that Jesus and Lucifer were/are brothers, rather than Jesus being the Son of God and Lucifer being a fallen archangel? Or am I getting them confused with someone else?

Yes. They believe that the "Father" fathered (by a mother god) all spirits and that Jesus and Satan are spirit-brothers.

They are really polytheists.

[Oklahomahawk]

Yes. They believe that the "Father" fathered (by a mother god) all spirits and that Jesus and Satan are spirit-brothers.

They are really polytheists.

Yeah, that could never work for me, but I've known a handful of Mormons over the years, not a lot, but quite a few for the area where I live and I can't think of one of them I didn't like . Weird how that stuff works sometimes isn't it?

[zitothebrave]

Yeah, that could never work for me, but I've known a handful of Mormons over the years, not a lot, but quite a few for the area where I live and I can't think of one of them I didn't like . Weird how that stuff works sometimes isn't it?

Most mormons I know are good people. And their religion is almost certainly part of that. But it's not Christianity by basically any standard.

[The Chosen One]

I like Mormons better than Jehovah's Witnesses. The JW's seemed more cultish and creepy than the Mormons, whereas the Mormons were just very polite.

[The Chosen One]

I just think Ammon Bundy is gunning for the Joe the Plumber role in the 2016 election cycle.

Bundy the Rancher?

Or Cliven The Cunt?

[zitothebrave]

I like Mormons better than Jehovah's Witnesses. The JW's seemed more cultish and creepy than the Mormons, whereas the Mormons were just very polite.

Jehovah's Witnesses are a really popular end of days sect. But most of their beliefs are in line with standard christian doctrine. But they're a cult. Just a kind of ****ty one.

[Runnin]

Isn't every religion is by definition "a cult", at least at first? If it survives, it grows into a social/political movement, but it's still a cult. The rules and customs become lax over time, giving opening for new opportunists to make new cults.

[Krgrecw]

Isn't every religion is by definition "a cult", at least at first? If it survives, it grows into a social/political movement, but it's still a cult. The rules and customs become lax over time, giving opening for new opportunists to make new cults.

I agree. Mormonism is no more or no less of a cult than Christianity is.

[goldfly]

Mormonism is a really successful cult.

uh

isn't the difference between a religion and a cult the amount of real estate, the amount of members you have and about 500 years?

[goldfly]

I'm late to the party and am not up on the story other than on one point: the Bundies aren't Christians, from what I know.

He has come out and said he is following what God tells him to do


so, he is an armed religious fanatic. if he was brown, he would be labeled a terrorist

but whatever

[goldfly]

i also love that he wants people around the country to mail them supplies (guess the post office is cool for that tyranny bs) and he has had a federal loan as well (****ing tyranny!!!!!)

[57Brave]

40 Million Bad*ss Birders Just Declared War On Oregon Terrorists



http://www.addictinginfo.org/2016/01/05/40-million-badss-birders-just-declared-war-on-oregon-terrorists/

[zitothebrave]

Isn't every religion is by definition "a cult", at least at first? If it survives, it grows into a social/political movement, but it's still a cult. The rules and customs become lax over time, giving opening for new opportunists to make new cults.

In a sense yes. Christianity was a radical sect of Judaism, as was Islam. That became standard over time.

[zitothebrave]

uh

isn't the difference between a religion and a cult the amount of real estate, the amount of members you have and about 500 years?

Logic like this is the same as saying Atheism is a religion. It's just bad logic.

[BedellBrave]

Isn't every religion is by definition "a cult", at least at first? If it survives, it grows into a social/political movement, but it's still a cult. The rules and customs become lax over time, giving opening for new opportunists to make new cults.


Yes. The word "cult" basically means worship.

But it's tertiary - and normal usage really is: "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious." To be "unorthodox" means to deviant from that which is regarded as orthodox-right (in this case Creedal Christianity). It also has the connotation that the cult is promoting the views in a way that intends to undermine the original group.

To the orthodox Jew, Christianity of any stripe would be seen as a cult. And Messianic Judaism would be see probably as the more sinister variety.

As the differences become clearer and owned by both sides, then the "spurious" view comes to be seen for what it is, another religion.

[BedellBrave]

I like Mormons better than Jehovah's Witnesses. The JW's seemed more cultish and creepy than the Mormons, whereas the Mormons were just very polite.


They make better neighbors especially since they don't ring the doorbell on Saturday mornings as much.

[The Chosen One]

They make better neighbors especially since they don't ring the doorbell on Saturday mornings as much.

What do you say to JW's when they approach you?

[BedellBrave]

I agree. Mormonism is no more or no less of a cult than Christianity is.


Words mean something - or they should. If by "cult" you mean a "worshiping body of people" then yes. If you mean that which deviates, self-consciously, from core doctrinal beliefs of an established religion and yet wants to pass as a sect of that religion then "no."

[BedellBrave]

He has come out and said he is following what God tells him to do


so, he is an armed religious fanatic. if he was brown, he would be labeled a terrorist

but whatever


Yeah, but that doesn't make him a Christian. Christians aren't the only ones who appeal to God or a god.

Some do call him a terrorist. I'm sure others would call him a freedom fighter standing up against statists. Could call him an anarcho-capitalist I suppose. Or, just one in a long line of western cowboys. This stuff ain't new.

[BedellBrave]

What do you say to JW's when they approach you?


Depends on how I feel that day to be honest. Sometimes I might engage them apologetically (questioning their beliefs, going back and forth). Other times I tell them, "I'm a local pastor, have a nice day" and I go back to bed. :-)

[BedellBrave]

Logic like this is the same as saying Atheism is a religion. It's just bad logic.


While agreeing that it's bad logic, I of course disagree with your analogy.

[BedellBrave]

A friend wrote the following:

What the Bundy militia is doing in Oregon is not without precedent in American history, and you don't have to go all the way back to Shays' Rebellion to find it.

In 1969, an armed group of student protesters took over the Willard Straight Hall of Cornell University. Protesting injustices, they held the building for about 36 hours. The showdown eventually ended without violence, and the protesters' demands were largely met. They are now regarded as heroes among much of the academic world, though the incident did cause Allan Bloom to begin criticizing progressive academia, eventually resulting in his book *The Closing of the American Mind.*

You can read more about the campus takeover here at a webpage hosted by Cornell:

Link (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2009/04/campus-takeover-symbolized-era-change)

[BedellBrave]

Nothing new under the sun.

[The Chosen One]

Depends on how I feel that day to be honest. Sometimes I might engage them apologetically (questioning their beliefs, going back and forth). Other times I tell them, "I'm a local pastor, have a nice day" and I go back to bed. :-)

Interesting.

Do they get defensive or start attacking when you question them?

[BedellBrave]

Interesting.

Do they get defensive or start attacking when you question them?


Depends on who they are. Often times it's an older lady with a younger one and they generally go on their way. Sometimes there will be a "friskier" one that wants to have a go at it, but it usually doesn't last too long. Some will want to come back with a higher up. After awhile the local congregation figures out that it's a waste of time to send their folks again.

All my conversations have been cordial though.

[57Brave]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t34.0-12/12511835_508754975961999_874367226_n.jpg?oh=6fee22 689f60e738fdb6313961aecf7f&oe=568FF336

[The Chosen One]

Depends on who they are. Often times it's an older lady with a younger one and they generally go on their way. Sometimes there will be a "friskier" one that wants to have a go at it, but it usually doesn't last too long. Some will want to come back with a higher up. After awhile the local congregation figures out that it's a waste of time to send their folks again.

All my conversations have been cordial though.

This one won't turn my Lord, we must send in reinforcements.

Good... Good... let the hate flow through you.

[BedellBrave]

Sav, you have convicted me of my indifference. Now, I'm going to feel a greater compulsion to engage rather than to go back to sleep on Saturday mornings. Smh.

[Runnin]

Sav, you have convicted me of my indifference. Now, I'm going to feel a greater compulsion to engage rather than to go back to sleep on Saturday mornings. Smh.
I solved this problem a few years ago by refusing to hear or understand any talk of religion. As soon as I realize they are JW I start talking about the weather, their clothes, their shoes, how pretty they look, etc. They quit coming around.

[Runnin]

When did food and water become snacks?

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t34.0-12/12511835_508754975961999_874367226_n.jpg?oh=6fee22 689f60e738fdb6313961aecf7f&oe=568FF336

[goldfly]

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/535037_910601792322461_7468305636672167220_n.jpg?o h=87fea4cbcbf1afffd8b3805fd16d25d4&oe=57024A44

[BedellBrave]

I solved this problem a few years ago by refusing to hear or understand any talk of religion. As soon as I realize they are JW I start talking about the weather, their clothes, their shoes, how pretty they look, etc. They quit coming around.


Are you in Japan?

[Runnin]

Are you in Japan?
Yep. They get around.

[50PoundHead]

Taking this back to the subject of the OP, there is a real issue here.

I thought this piece from The New Yorker sums it up pretty well: Link: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-do-the-bundys-want

The blue collar white male vote started slipping from the Democratic side of the ledger back in the Vietnam era and nothing has stemmed that exodus. That, and on-going federal land policies, really fuel a lot of this. Hard to know what to do on the land policy. Deep down, I think if it were in private hands, it would get all ripped up and the folks who bought it would still go out of business, so it's likely a lose/lose economically and environmentally.

[Oklahomahawk]

Taking this back to the subject of the OP, there is a real issue here.

I thought this piece from The New Yorker sums it up pretty well: Link: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-do-the-bundys-want

The blue collar white male vote started slipping from the Democratic side of the ledger back in the Vietnam era and nothing has stemmed that exodus. That, and on-going federal land policies, really fuel a lot of this. Hard to know what to do on the land policy. Deep down, I think if it were in private hands, it would get all ripped up and the folks who bought it would still go out of business, so it's likely a lose/lose economically and environmentally.

I get my house/car insurance from a guy who does a lot of farming and ranching folks' insurance and we were chatting the other day about the REAL #1 reason why ranchers, especially those in the cattle business were really hurting and I'll be happy to tell everyone what he said if anyone is interested. It doesn't have anything to do with protests or running your cattle on government owned land (whether they pay their share for it or those like Cliven) but it would be something that would, in my opinion be tantamount to economic treason IMO since it had to result from payoffs, favors, etc., but sadly there doesn't seem to be anyone in the media who gives a ****e about the plight of ranchers unless they go on some sort of expedition and forget to pack snacks.

Let me know if you all want to know more.

[gilesfan]

I get my house/car insurance from a guy who does a lot of farming and ranching folks' insurance and we were chatting the other day about the REAL #1 reason why ranchers, especially those in the cattle business were really hurting and I'll be happy to tell everyone what he said if anyone is interested. It doesn't have anything to do with protests or running your cattle on government owned land (whether they pay their share for it or those like Cliven) but it would be something that would, in my opinion be tantamount to economic treason IMO since it had to result from payoffs, favors, etc., but sadly there doesn't seem to be anyone in the media who gives a ****e about the plight of ranchers unless they go on some sort of expedition and forget to pack snacks.

Let me know if you all want to know more.

well, obviously. Spill it.

[Oklahomahawk]

well, obviously. Spill it.

OK, as you know if you're involved in the cattle/beef producing industry prices were really pretty high for beef for several months until the past 3 or 4 months (not sure exactly how long) when they came crashing back down. He told me cattle folks are now selling them for $300-$400 loss per head just to get rid of them because the market was flooded. The source of that huge influx of beef? According to him it is/was Brazil and that our laws had kept out their beef for a long time which caused supply to be lower and then mysteriously a new law was passed which allowed us to import Brazilian beef which came in and flooded the market big time, which now has American ranchers "up poopie creek".

I'll bet if someone has the time and energy they could find out who was behind that new legislation and who all voted for it. I don't have the time or inclination but to me those people sold out their country just like if they had sold military secrets. Of course that's just me.

[BedellBrave]

OK, as you know if you're involved in the cattle/beef producing industry prices were really pretty high for beef for several months until the past 3 or 4 months (not sure exactly how long) when they came crashing back down. He told me cattle folks are now selling them for $300-$400 loss per head just to get rid of them because the market was flooded. The source of that huge influx of beef? According to him it is/was Brazil and that our laws had kept out their beef for a long time which caused supply to be lower and then mysteriously a new law was passed which allowed us to import Brazilian beef which came in and flooded the market big time, which now has American ranchers "up poopie creek".

I'll bet if someone has the time and energy they could find out who was behind that new legislation and who all voted for it. I don't have the time or inclination but to me those people sold out their country just like if they had sold military secrets. Of course that's just me.

And for prices to rise here. Right?

[50PoundHead]

OK, as you know if you're involved in the cattle/beef producing industry prices were really pretty high for beef for several months until the past 3 or 4 months (not sure exactly how long) when they came crashing back down. He told me cattle folks are now selling them for $300-$400 loss per head just to get rid of them because the market was flooded. The source of that huge influx of beef? According to him it is/was Brazil and that our laws had kept out their beef for a long time which caused supply to be lower and then mysteriously a new law was passed which allowed us to import Brazilian beef which came in and flooded the market big time, which now has American ranchers "up poopie creek".

I'll bet if someone has the time and energy they could find out who was behind that new legislation and who all voted for it. I don't have the time or inclination but to me those people sold out their country just like if they had sold military secrets. Of course that's just me.

I don't imagine there was ever legislation on this past NAFTA.

[Oklahomahawk]

And for prices to rise here. Right?

I guess it depends on how you look at it and this is one of those areas where I'll be looked at as a hypocrite. So be it. Our cattle industry, IMO tends to work fairly well as a supply/demand driven free-ish market economy. There are years, sometimes in a row of really low prices, where many ranchers hedge their bets, and hold on for the good years, then when those years come around they try to make back lost profits from previous bad years. This was one of the good stretches where things were going well for them until Congress, I guess, stepped in and allowed a vast influx of beef from a foreign country to come into the country and greatly affect supply which of course all but destroyed demand. In this case I would be against allowing foreign countries to make profits at the expense of our own farmers/ranchers from a system that IMO works when left alone.

Contrast this with our oil/gas industry and our big Pharma industries which IMO do not work well according to free market because the supply is, again IMO controlled so as to artificially inflate prices, to outrageous, IMO levels. Since the system is stagnant because of lack of competition I would be for allowing reliable countries, such as Canada to compete with our drug companies to drive prices down to more affordable levels. Allowing competition so as to actually have competition would be a good thing IMO, though I see some of the economic purists here have vastly differing opinions.

Again, these are my opinions, and I guess whether a person likes them or not depends on "who you're rooting for". I'm rooting for ranchers in the one argument and consumers in the other because I am hoping for something akin to actual free market capitalism. I know this will cause some of our brethren's heads to explode but these are just my opinions and the groups I root for. I realize everyone doesn't subscribe to either.

Again, so be it.

[Oklahomahawk]

I don't imagine there was ever legislation on this past NAFTA.

There had to be something from what I was told by the guy who deals with farmers and ranchers every day, but that one is beyond me. Perhaps because I suspect kickbacks and payoffs for everyone in Washington I just naturally expect that was what happened this time. Of course that can't possibly be the case, huh?

Ah good old NAFTA, a Bill Clinton turd burger w/fries

[BedellBrave]

I guess it depends on how you look at it and this is one of those areas where I'll be looked at as a hypocrite. So be it. Our cattle industry, IMO tends to work fairly well as a supply/demand driven free-ish market economy. There are years, sometimes in a row of really low prices, where many ranchers hedge their bets, and hold on for the good years, then when those years come around they try to make back lost profits from previous bad years. This was one of the good stretches where things were going well for them until Congress, I guess, stepped in and allowed a vast influx of beef from a foreign country to come into the country and greatly affect supply which of course all but destroyed demand. In this case I would be against allowing foreign countries to make profits at the expense of our own farmers/ranchers from a system that IMO works when left alone.

Contrast this with our oil/gas industry and our big Pharma industries which IMO do not work well according to free market because the supply is, again IMO controlled so as to artificially inflate prices, to outrageous, IMO levels. Since the system is stagnant because of lack of competition I would be for allowing reliable countries, such as Canada to compete with our drug companies to drive prices down to more affordable levels. Allowing competition so as to actually have competition would be a good thing IMO, though I see some of the economic purists here have vastly differing opinions.

Again, these are my opinions, and I guess whether a person likes them or not depends on "who you're rooting for". I'm rooting for ranchers in the one argument and consumers in the other because I am hoping for something akin to actual free market capitalism. I know this will cause some of our brethren's heads to explode but these are just my opinions and the groups I root for. I realize everyone doesn't subscribe to either.

Again, so be it.


I'm not making a value judgment, just pointing out that prices had risen. That price rise had/has consequences - again, not a value judgment, just stating fact. Right? I'll root for our ranchers and our consumers and know that in doing so there's inevitable conflict.

[Oklahomahawk]

I'm not making a value judgment, just pointing out that prices had risen. That price rise had/has consequences - again, not a value judgment, just stating fact. Right? I'll root for our ranchers and our consumers and know that in doing so there's inevitable conflict.

I suppose conflict is a fair way to put it, but I would call it something more along the lines of balance, limits, you could even go all Lion King and say a "circle of life kind of thing". Why do the predators in the jungle, savanna, etc., not kill every single herd animal they can find, ala the buffalo hunters in the American west circa 1870? Why were the Native Americans able to live in harmony with the land and when Europeans came they brought a "kill 'em all let God sort 'em out" mentality? Why did the Indentured Servant program work very well yet the Headright System was an enormous pile of rancid poo?

2 quick questions, first did you check your PMs recently? Also, did you make it through all 10 episodes of Man in the High Castle? I got sidetracked after #1 and just did #2 and #3 tonight. I feel like I"m getting lung cancer just from all the cigarettes I've seen smoked in the past 2 hours. It was like being in London during the blitz.

[BedellBrave]

I suppose conflict is a fair way to put it, but I would call it something more along the lines of balance, limits, you could even go all Lion King and say a "circle of life kind of thing". Why do the predators in the jungle, savanna, etc., not kill every single herd animal they can find, ala the buffalo hunters in the American west circa 1870? Why were the Native Americans able to live in harmony with the land and when Europeans came they brought a "kill 'em all let God sort 'em out" mentality? Why did the Indentured Servant program work very well yet the Headright System was an enormous pile of rancid poo?

2 quick questions, first did you check your PMs recently? Also, did you make it through all 10 episodes of Man in the High Castle? I got sidetracked after #1 and just did #2 and #3 tonight. I feel like I"m getting lung cancer just from all the cigarettes I've seen smoked in the past 2 hours. It was like being in London during the blitz.


1. I have now. :-)

2. Watched it all and really liked it!

[50PoundHead]

There had to be something from what I was told by the guy who deals with farmers and ranchers every day, but that one is beyond me. Perhaps because I suspect kickbacks and payoffs for everyone in Washington I just naturally expect that was what happened this time. Of course that can't possibly be the case, huh?

Ah good old NAFTA, a Bill Clinton turd burger w/fries

I don't know how quotas/trade rules work per se, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility given a beef shortage and rising prices that a green light was given to import more beef from South America by whatever powers-that-be exsit in that realm.

It's a bit of a stretch, but what ranchers are facing isn't a whole lot different than what a lot of workers face in the post-union era. It seems that whenever a commodity price or a production price inches up that would have an effect on consumers, policy makers fall all over themselves to cushion even the most infinitesimally minor price hike. There are exceptions of course, but it's really a blow to a lot of working people who depend on healthy commodity prices and wages.

[Oklahomahawk]

I don't know how quotas/trade rules work per se, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility given a beef shortage and rising prices that a green light was given to import more beef from South America by whatever powers-that-be exsit in that realm.

It's a bit of a stretch, but what ranchers are facing isn't a whole lot different than what a lot of workers face in the post-union era. It seems that whenever a commodity price or a production price inches up that would have an effect on consumers, policy makers fall all over themselves to cushion even the most infinitesimally minor price hike. There are exceptions of course, but it's really a blow to a lot of working people who depend on healthy commodity prices and wages.

Unions wouldn't even exist except for the "absolutely anything goes to make more profits and human beings are no more than any other expendable asset and should be used until they cannot be used any more and then simply discarded like an empty beer can" spirit that possessed owners and management 100 years ago and still does a lot more today than many people want to admit. So isn't it ironic that we still need absolute power and little or no regulations for owners/management but unions have outlived their usefulness? Honestly I don't know how the people of this country still have as many freedoms left as they do.

EDIT: Oh and is there any type of perk or bobble that the people who actually govern this country won't whore themselves out to get just a little bit more of?

[Oklahomahawk]

2. Watched it all and really liked it!

I read that there's supposed to be a season 2, have you heard that?

[BedellBrave]

I read that there's supposed to be a season 2, have you heard that?


Let's just say, there better be.

[Oklahomahawk]

Let's just say, there better be.

:eusa_clap:

[57Brave]

Maybe take a longer look at HRC:


"I think what I'd do, as president, is I would make a phone call to whoever, to the group," he said, adding later, "I'd talk to the leader. I would talk to him and I would say, 'You gotta get out — come see me, but you gotta get out.'"

"You cannot let people take over federal property," Mr. Trump said. "You can't, because once you do that, you don't have a government anymore. I think, frankly, they've been there too long."

Mr. Trump said he wasn't necessarily suggesting a large-scale military action, but that "at a certain point you have to do something and you have to be firm and you have to be strong, you have to be a government."

[57Brave]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12495040_935827706472815_2797654598139466506_n.jpg ?oh=5547347be42cfd269a2054cae2617f2f&oe=574679B9

[Krgrecw]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12495040_935827706472815_2797654598139466506_n.jpg ?oh=5547347be42cfd269a2054cae2617f2f&oe=574679B9



What peaceful protest by blacks has the national guard been called too? I'm curious.

[zitothebrave]

http://katu.com/news/local/leader-of-oregon-occupation-ammon-bundy-three-others-arrested

Yay domestic terrorism.

[The Chosen One]

After Finicum died, it's good to see some conservatives jump on the bandwagon of law enforcement brutality.

All i've been reading is "he had his hands up and said don't shoot"

We've been told by conservatives if you charge at a cop when he tells you to put his hands up you can expect some punishment or don't be surprised when they defend themselves.

However, driving straight into a roadblock, then then telling the cops to shoot you is a great idea.

[Garmel]

After Finicum died, it's good to see some conservatives jump on the bandwagon of law enforcement brutality.

All i've been reading is "he had his hands up and said don't shoot"

We've been told by conservatives if you charge at a cop when he tells you to put his hands up you can expect some punishment or don't be surprised when they defend themselves.

However, driving straight into a roadblock, then then telling the cops to shoot you is a great idea.

It does look like he's reaching for something so it looks like the agents had a right to kill him. However, if this was a person of color you libs would be freaking out right now. Especially entertaining would be Zito's conspiracy theories.

[Julio3000]

It does look like he's reaching for something so it looks like the agents had a right to kill him. However, if this was a person of color you libs would be freaking out right now. Especially entertaining would be Zito's conspiracy theories.

You can do better than that, right?

[Garmel]

You can do better than that, right?

Sorry but I'm not saying anything that isn't the flat out truth and you know it.

[cajunrevenge]

After Finicum died, it's good to see some conservatives jump on the bandwagon of law enforcement brutality.

All i've been reading is "he had his hands up and said don't shoot"

We've been told by conservatives if you charge at a cop when he tells you to put his hands up you can expect some punishment or don't be surprised when they defend themselves.

However, driving straight into a roadblock, then then telling the cops to shoot you is a great idea.

I am conservative and I firmly support brutalizing police officers. As far as I am concerned they declared war on the American people and when you treat everyone like criminals don't expect them to support you doing it.