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sturg33
02-21-2016, 05:37 PM
I've obviously been pissed off about Bernie Sanders warping the minds of many Americans by lying to them. I had a friend who has fallen victim to this, and he cited Scandinavia as reasoning for us trusting Sanders' absurd claims.

I found this article to be quite helpful... and like a logical person, once looking over the data, he had renounced Sanders.

LINK: Scandinavia Isn’t A Socialist Paradise (http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/11/scandinavia-isnt-a-socialist-paradise/)


One of the reasons it is incorrect to refer to countries like Sweden as “socialist” is that these countries were once far more progressive than they are now. The Economist says Sweden was once a “tax-and-spend” economy in which author Astrid Lindgren (of “Pippi Longstocking” fame) was required to pay more than 100 percent of her income in taxes. This heavily progressive tax rate stunted economic growth, and Sweden fell from the fourth-wealthiest country in the world to the fourteenth-wealthiest country in just 23 years.


The government recognized the cause of the trouble and instituted several capitalist reforms to resuscitate Sweden’s economy. According to The Economist, following the success of Sweden’s relatively right-leaning Moderate party, “Swedish GDP is growing strongly, and unemployment is falling. The budget is heading into surplus next year.” The article notes that many Swedes support moderate and right-wing reforms: “The centre-right has made welfare payments less generous, cut taxes for the lower-paid and trimmed the numbers on sickness benefit. Voters seem to approve.” The electoral success of moderate and conservative parties throughout Scandinavia is at once a rejection of progressive policies and an endorsement of free markets in what some consider to be the most progressive region in the world.

In some ways, Sweden is now less progressive than the United States. Harvard professor Gregory Mankiw writes that the wealthiest decile of Swedes carries 26.7 percent of the tax burden. In The United States, the figure is a whopping 45.1 percent. Additionally, wealth inequality is more pronounced in Scandinavian countries than it is in the United States. In Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and Norway, the top decile of earners own between 65 and 69 percent of the country’s total wealth, an astonishing figure. Sanders is apparently unaware of this reality, given that one of his primary reasons for praising Scandinavia was their low levels of wealth inequality.


Despite their rates of wealth inequality, it is true that the citizens of Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland devote more of their income to taxes than American citizens do. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the average American spends 9.8 percent of his income on taxes; Swedes spend 12.3 percent, Danes 26.4 percent, Norwegians 10 percent, and Finns 12.9 percent. Perhaps because of these measures, government debt is less of a problem in Scandinavia than it is in the United States.


However, Scandinavian rates of household debt are astronomically high. OECD figures also show the average Dane has a household debt equal to 310 percent of his disposable income; the number is 173 percent for Swedes. In America, the average is 114 percent. While America’s economic problems cannot be ignored, it is noteworthy that Scandinavia’s progressive tax systems fail to protect their citizens from staggering personal debt.

Finally, and perhaps most surprisingly, Sweden’s public education system is ranked lower than that of the United States. According to the OECD, Sweden ranks 30 of 37 in math and 24 of 37 in reading. The United States, meanwhile, is 27 of 37 in math and 25 of 37 in reading. Norway and Denmark are both ranked better than the United States, but not by much. These realities destroy the pervasive myth that “socialist” Scandinavian schools are the best in the world. Despite what Sanders might believe, educational institutions in Sweden are not superior to those in the United States. Sweden’s high tax rates have not ensured educational excellence, and many Swedes likely pay the equivalent of college tuition for their children in the form of taxes anyhow.

And then there's Switzerland...


This evidence is quite as compelling as the success story that is Switzerland. Unlike its neighbors, Switzerland is one of the most capitalist countries in existence. Its citizens only pay 8.6 percent of their personal incomes in taxes annually, and its economic climate is particularly well-suited to entrepreneurship. The Huffington Post writes that 99 percent of Switzerland’s economy is made up of small and medium-sized enterprises, which also employ three-quarters of the country’s workforce.


Switzerland is ranked best in the world on many categories related to economic development, including “innovation, on-the-job staff training, attracting talent from elsewhere, and for government-provided training.” Ultimately, The Huffington Post claims, “Switzerland is home to one of the world’s most thriving economies and also one of the happiest populations on the globe.” Many leftists extol the limited successes of Sweden and Finland without ever acknowledging Switzerland, although it outperforms much of Europe in various economic and social metrics.

Although it is very capitalist, Switzerland boasts many of the advantages that socialist Scandinavian states are supposed to claim exclusively. Switzerland’s unemployment rate is just 4.5 percent, which is one of the lowest rates in the world. The country’s poverty rate is similarly low (XLS). Those who immigrate to Switzerland have an average employment rate of 76 percent, which is much higher than the European average of 62 percent.

Furthermore, the Swiss educational system is ranked third in the world by the OECD. Only Korea and Japan are ranked higher, which means Switzerland’s educational system is the best in the Western world. Many claim this distinction belongs to Finland, but Finnish schools are in fact ranked 10/37 in math and 4/37 in reading.

Additionally, income inequality and debt are both quite low in Switzerland. This reality persists although Switzerland’s wealthy have the lowest tax burden in the world; the richest decile in the country pays only 20.9 percent of the country’s taxes. Remarkably, even though the tax burden on the wealthy is minimal, Switzerland’s national debt as a percentage of its gross domestic product is lower than Finland’s, Sweden’s, and Denmark’s.

goldfly
02-21-2016, 07:46 PM
awesome, the federalist isn't down with the socialism of Scandinavia

color me surprised


"THEY FELL 10 SPOTS IN 23 YEARS!!!!"

haha


i love hear from people say we can't be like Europe on issues like healthcare and guns etc etc etc etc

and then cite Switzerland for their economy who doesn't spend **** on any defense other than taking care of the Pope.

it's good stuff

sturg33
02-21-2016, 07:57 PM
Oh... so the data is wrong?

goldfly
02-21-2016, 08:11 PM
is that what i said?

sturg33
02-21-2016, 08:14 PM
is that what i said?

I frankly have no idea what you say half the time... it never really relates to what the topic is.

I'm curious as to why you think the inequality is so high in these countries, despite deploying all your "new models"

zitothebrave
02-21-2016, 08:14 PM
Switzerland makes it money laundering money for the rich and vile. What a ****ty comparison. Switzerland is basically the mafia of countries.

goldfly
02-21-2016, 08:21 PM
Switzerland makes it money laundering money for the rich and vile. What a ****ty comparison. Switzerland is basically the mafia of countries.

aka the pure libertarian capitalism model

goldfly
02-21-2016, 08:22 PM
I frankly have no idea what you say half the time... it never really relates to what the topic is.

I'm curious as to why you think the inequality is so high in these cow tries, despite deploying all your "new models"

is this your really long way of saying, "no, that isn't what you said" ?

sturg33
02-21-2016, 08:24 PM
I'll wait for you Bernie worshipers to address the content.

Every time I make a post with actual data it becomes a ghost town

sturg33
02-21-2016, 08:24 PM
Switzerland makes it money laundering money for the rich and vile. What a ****ty comparison. Switzerland is basically the mafia of countries.

haha

goldfly
02-21-2016, 08:26 PM
I'll wait for you Bernie worshipers to address the content.

Every time I make a post with actual data it becomes a ghost town

i never disputed those numbers you posted

i also don't really care if a country is 4th or 14th in the economy but so be it

sturg33
02-21-2016, 08:27 PM
aka the pure libertarian capitalism model

You mean the model that produces an economy where 99 percent of Switzerland’s economy is made up of small and medium-sized enterprises, which also employ three-quarters of the country’s workforce.

I would have thought you supported that... I guess you're on the Walmart bandwagon

The Chosen One
02-21-2016, 08:28 PM
Switzerland has national healthcare too. Our 1% here is probably paying for it from the money laundering.

sturg33
02-21-2016, 08:28 PM
i never disputed those numbers you posted

i also don't really care if a country is 4th or 14th in the economy but so be it


It's so funny how much of a troll you have become. You never made an actual point with any data at all. Just make off handed quips and think your clever.

Oh well... keep praying for your socialism... it's working so well all over the world.

goldfly
02-21-2016, 08:33 PM
It's so funny how much of a troll you have become. You never made an actual point with any data at all. Just make off handed quips and think your clever.

Oh well... keep praying for your socialism... it's working so well all over the world.

sure thing sturg

i'm not praying for socialism

socialism isn't happening all over the world so i'm not sure why you would say it's happening all over the world

but i really like the social programs we have here thus far and think if we worked together it could be better for the country but whatever

sturg33
02-21-2016, 08:35 PM
sure thing sturg

i'm not praying socialism

socialism isn't happening all over the world so i'm not sure why you would say it's happening all over the world

but i really like the social programs we have here thus far and think if we worked together it could be better for the country but whatever

Sure you do... but like the rest of you, you couldn't care less about the cost of doing these services. $19t in debt isn't enough for you... keep it moving. Don't worry, I know math is hard for you and Bernie

And that's what makes him a POS. He wants to continue stealing from future generations by burying us in more debt

Tapate50
02-21-2016, 09:26 PM
Are the govt run social programs terribly efficient here? I never got that impression. On a local level the folks doing the work on the ground floor independent of govt agencies boast great ROI numbers for the most part. At least around here they seem to...

The Chosen One
02-21-2016, 09:32 PM
Frankly I wanted a public option. The reason we need a public option that would be optional pay in is because of people wit-pre-existing conditions. Now that those people are getting insurance the insurance companies are jacking up rates to make everyone covee the cost. A public option would have been run cheaper and still take care of those in need. I don't think a public option would have killed the free market insurance sector, but if it did wouldn't that be capitalism at work? Sturg will say no because "the governmental has no business selling health insurance" but you leave those people out there who'd have to pay tremendously large premium with pre-pre-existing conditions and I think as a society we can do better.

I'd like universal healthcare and understand the costs of it but a public option would have been the best compromise.

The Chosen One
02-21-2016, 09:34 PM
Really the people strongly against the public option in Congress all had health insurance company lobbyist money. Max Baucus (D) was oe of the main ones pushing insurance mandate and killed the public option.

BedellBrave
02-21-2016, 09:34 PM
sure thing sturg

i'm not praying for socialism

socialism isn't happening all over the world so i'm not sure why you would say it's happening all over the world

but i really like the social programs we have here thus far and think if we worked together it could be better for the country but whatever


That's sounds so unlike you gold. Work together? You mean with folk like us in a give and take of ideas? You really want to work with folk like us? Or do you rather mean you just want most of us taxed more, military cut, and more national programs to your liking supported?

sturg33
02-21-2016, 10:16 PM
Frankly I wanted a public option. The reason we need a public option that would be optional pay in is because of people wit-pre-existing conditions. Now that those people are getting insurance the insurance companies are jacking up rates to make everyone covee the cost. A public option would have been run cheaper and still take care of those in need. I don't think a public option would have killed the free market insurance sector, but if it did wouldn't that be capitalism at work? Sturg will say no because "the governmental has no business selling health insurance" but you leave those people out there who'd have to pay tremendously large premium with pre-pre-existing conditions and I think as a society we can do better.

I'd like universal healthcare and understand the costs of it but a public option would have been the best compromise.

How could you argue it would be free market if it is paid for by forced submission by government subsidy? And then of course, private companies would stop offering insurance to people because the public option would be there (paid for by taxes)

weso1
02-21-2016, 10:31 PM
I think it's a very dangerous idea that capitalism has failed. It's an idea that's taken off, but the whole defense of this idea is that capitalism has failed because of corruption. But corruption is not dependent on capitalism. Corruption is born in humanism.

sturg33
02-21-2016, 10:35 PM
I think it's a very dangerous idea that capitalism has failed. It's an idea that's taken off, but the whole defense of this idea is that capitalism has failed because of corruption. But corruption is not dependent on capitalism. Corruption is born in humanism.

Tough to argue that free market capitalism has failed in the US bc we haven't seen it in decades