Shelby Miller deal revisited [Archive]

bravesfanforlife88

05-05-2016, 10:46 PM

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2637957-shelby-miller-looking-early-on-to-be-one-of-worst-mlb-trades-in-decades

Came across this article from bleacher report about how this could go down as one of the worst trades in DECADES. Lots of dbacks fans not happy about the deal....

Btw is Blair pitching against Miller Saturday?

bravesfanforlife88

05-05-2016, 10:48 PM

Cancel he goes tomorrow against greinke

weso1

05-05-2016, 10:50 PM

Some good D-backs tears in this thread I found:

link (http://forum.diamondbacksbullpen.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2735)

cajunrevenge

05-06-2016, 12:26 AM

I wonder whats going to happen in AZ if they dont turn things around. Really hoping for a firesale so we can finally get Greinke!

Knucksie

05-06-2016, 08:12 AM

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2637957-shelby-miller-looking-early-on-to-be-one-of-worst-mlb-trades-in-decades

Lots of dbacks fans not happy about the deal....

Somebody should dig up their reactions from when the deal originally went down.

UNCBlue012

05-06-2016, 08:41 AM

This deal is still incredible. I can't believe it. Swanson changed so much about our rebuild.

bravesfanforlife88

05-06-2016, 08:50 AM

Cards get Heyward and walden
Braves get Miller and Jenkins

I think that deal was pretty even especially with Heyward bolting after the season and walden with severe injury issues

Dbacks get Miller and spiere(?)
Braves get Swanson Blair and Inciarte

No doubt win for the braves right now. Season is the future face of the organization. Blair has looked really solid for us in the minors and few mlb starts. Inciarte will be real good once off injury.

I was heavily against trading Inciarte in the offseason partly because I didn't fully trust mallex yet. But based on what I've seen mallex can hang with the big club, if we get a stupid offer and obvious win I could trade Inciarte

Dalyn

05-06-2016, 08:56 AM

yeezus

05-06-2016, 09:03 AM

I want to see Ender AND Mallex out there. It would be a huge mistake to trade Ender, I think. Probably my favorite player on the Braves right now.

I wanna see more of him, but I love what he brings to the table overall. I'm also hesitant to trade him due to the lack of OFers we have in the system.

bravesfanforlife88

05-06-2016, 09:10 AM

Hey I agree I love Inciarte. I'm just saying that if we are blown away on a deal then you have to consider it. But we have him under control for a long time so let's see what both of them can do in the outfield

SidSlid92

05-06-2016, 09:25 AM

In essence, Braves turned Heyward and Walden in to Swanson, Blair, Jenkins and Inciarte. Not too shabby!

bravesfanforlife88

05-06-2016, 10:45 AM

In essence, Braves turned Heyward and Walden in to Swanson, Blair, Jenkins and Inciarte. Not too shabby!

you can't forget a damn good year with shelby miller....

JxnMissFan

05-06-2016, 10:53 AM

In essence, Braves turned Heyward and Walden in to Swanson, Blair, Jenkins and Inciarte. Not too shabby!

And they turned Wood and Peraza into Hector and a couple of TJ middle relief guys.

Amazing how things seem to balance out.

smootness

05-06-2016, 10:53 AM

Somebody should dig up their reactions from when the deal originally went down.

...those are reactions from when it originally went down.

Knucksie

05-06-2016, 11:35 AM

...those are reactions from when it originally went down.

Looking even worse now, but he should still be able to turn it around.

yeezus

05-06-2016, 11:50 AM

...those are reactions from when it originally went down.

they weren't as mad as I thought they'd be.
maybe this place has me conditioned.

smootness

05-06-2016, 11:52 AM

they weren't as mad as I thought they'd be.
maybe this place has me conditioned.

Honestly, they don't seem to be extremely bright. Several at least partially justified by saying they were in position to 'go for it'. First, that team was never really in position to truly go for it. Second, that trade made them obviously worse long-term but also likely worse as soon as midseason this year.

emk418

05-06-2016, 11:53 AM

smootness

05-06-2016, 11:57 AM

Definitely a win for the Braves because of Swanson. I don't think long term Blair or Inciarte are pieces that are going to truly come back to haunt the Dbacks. Swanson absolutely looks like that piece though

But Inciarte is already a very good major league player, and Blair has the chance to be that as well. Swanson may end up being the best piece, and maybe even the only guy with a chance to be a multi-year All-Star, but all 3 absolutely have the chance to be really valuable pieces. Giving that up for one good pitcher (who so far has been downright terrible) is not good.

Even if it was only Inciarte and Blair, that probably ends up being an obvious win for the Braves.

yeezus

05-06-2016, 12:03 PM

Honestly, they don't seem to be extremely bright. Several at least partially justified by saying they were in position to 'go for it'. First, that team was never really in position to truly go for it. Second, that trade made them obviously worse long-term but also likely worse as soon as midseason this year.

and they were saying Swanson wouldn't be relevant il 2017.
Currently they are starting Nick Ahmed there. I think Swanson would be better instantly.

rawwr

05-06-2016, 01:21 PM

Honestly, they don't seem to be extremely bright. Several at least partially justified by saying they were in position to 'go for it'. First, that team was never really in position to truly go for it. Second, that trade made them obviously worse long-term but also likely worse as soon as midseason this year.

To be fair, I can remember several posters here who insisted the media/Atlanta fanbase response to the trade was overblown and offered the same justification as to why the trade wasn't bad from Arizona's point of view.

Braves1976

05-06-2016, 03:43 PM

But Inciarte is already a very good major league player, and Blair has the chance to be that as well. Swanson may end up being the best piece, and maybe even the only guy with a chance to be a multi-year All-Star, but all 3 absolutely have the chance to be really valuable pieces. Giving that up for one good pitcher (who so far has been downright terrible) is not good.

Even if it was only Inciarte and Blair, that probably ends up being an obvious win for the Braves.

I agree with you totally here smootness, emk418 is selling both Inciarte and Blair short IMO. I just hope the Braves don't do so as well as far Inciarte goes. That they almost traded him straight away to Houston before the season makes me concerned about that.

msstate7

05-06-2016, 03:55 PM

Braves1976

05-06-2016, 04:08 PM

To be fair, I can remember several posters here who insisted the media/Atlanta fanbase response to the trade was overblown and offered the same justification as to why the trade wasn't bad from Arizona's point of view.

There is always going to be some that justify even the most worst trades. Shoot I remember being shocked at how many Braves fans at scout argued against my points against the Tex trade (first one) back in the day. However, I think most here were more than pleased with the return we got for Miller at the time. I wasn't on here that day or even that week to post as I had stopped focusing on the Braves after the Simmons trade. Then I heard about that trade with the D'Backs days after it happened and that struck my interest again. If not for it I'd probably waited till Spring Training to be interested.

Russ2dollas

05-07-2016, 03:53 PM

Inciarte looks like a great cf who is a high avg no pop guy vs rh and unplayable vs lh. Our hope is he keeps growing at the plate, esp vs lh

Blair most ppl say is a 3-4. Some like him more. That is super valuable.

Swanson looks like an above avg regular now with star potential. We win.

Problem is we are still one blockbuster away from being a real contender. So many of our position guys are super young

auyushu

05-07-2016, 05:18 PM

I agree with you totally here smootness, emk418 is selling both Inciarte and Blair short IMO. I just hope the Braves don't do so as well as far Inciarte goes. That they almost traded him straight away to Houston before the season makes me concerned about that.

Depending on what we could have gotten he was worth trading immediately. The Astros have a ton of talent I would have liked to have traded him for this offseason. Inciarte isn't really someone I want in the lineup long term if Mallex makes it, and with the defense Mallex has shown so far he looks like he will (and Acuna is looking awesome so far and should be ready by sometime in 2018).

Braves1976

05-07-2016, 05:33 PM

Depending on what we could have gotten he was worth trading immediately. The Astros have a ton of talent I would have liked to have traded him for this offseason. Inciarte isn't really someone I want in the lineup long term if Mallex makes it, and with the defense Mallex has shown so far he looks like he will (and Acuna is looking awesome so far and should be ready by sometime in 2018).

Mallex making it or not shouldn't be a reason not to want Inciarte in the line-up, if you want Markakis over him you need to reconsider both on offense and defense along considering his likely decline. Also, the offer was Tucker and that isn't worth Inciarte. I am not high on either Tucker brother turning into anything special personally. But I agree everyone has a price and if someone overpays enough that's another story. But elite defensive players like Inciarte are usually underrated and you can probably get a similar return in a trade for someone like Markakis as you would him.

I don't know about Acuna being ready that soon either, but I do like him as a prospect a lot. We can always trade Inciarte then if he's ready.

smootness

05-07-2016, 05:44 PM

unplayable vs lh.

Huh?

Braves1976

05-07-2016, 05:50 PM

Huh?

Inciarte had a few great AB's vs lefties just before he got hurt. I think some are jumping the gun here acting like he cannot improve vs them when we've already seen signs of it in a small sample. Time will tell of course but I think he will somewhat.

smootness

05-07-2016, 06:03 PM

Inciarte had a few great AB's vs lefties just before he got hurt. I think some are jumping the gun here acting like he cannot improve vs them when we've already seen signs of it in a small sample. Time will tell of course but I think he will somewhat.

The thing is, his struggles against lefties are themselves a small sample. People just point to the 150 PA last year and completely ignore the very good 140 PA he had against them in 2014. And his numbers against lefties in the minors were pretty good as well.

Braves1976

05-07-2016, 06:10 PM

The thing is, his struggles against lefties are themselves a small sample. People just point to the 150 PA last year and completely ignore the very good 140 PA he had against them in 2014. And his numbers against lefties in the minors were pretty good as well.

Good point. It is crazy to me so many Braves fans sound like they're in such a hurry to trade him, be careful what you wish for is my warning.

Russ2dollas

05-08-2016, 10:23 AM

Huh?

Look at is splits

Yes he's young and can get better. But so far the results are awful

Braves1976

05-08-2016, 05:26 PM

Look at is splits

Yes he's young and can get better. But so far the results are awful

He did, he covered that in his response to me.

emk418

05-14-2016, 10:21 AM

Maybe his hamstring will nag him till the trading deadline haha

The Braves absolutely should not sell Inciarte short because of his slow start(injury related). My point has always been, the trade obviously was a haul for us and a fantastic deal. But that's mostly because of getting Swanson. Inciarte is a nice player but I said at the time of the trade that the Dbacks sold at peak value for him. I think he's a decent starting OF that ideally is more of a 4th OF that gets a good amount of playing time. I also like Aaron Blair, but I don't see him as anything more then a 4th type starter. Again, both pieces are fantastic to get in addition to Swanson....that's why we got a haul. But my bottom line is I think people here have way overvalued Inciarte and Blair.

Heyward

05-14-2016, 10:30 AM

And they turned Wood and Peraza into Hector and a couple of TJ middle relief guys.

Amazing how things seem to balance out.

Wood is a 3-4 type, he isnt that good, and Peraza is a utility type.

Context.

smootness

05-14-2016, 10:38 AM

But in 2015 and no other year of his minor or major league career the results are awful

FIFY

Heyward

05-14-2016, 10:40 AM

smootness

05-14-2016, 10:49 AM

They'd be alot better if they just kept the pieces they had.

Swanson would be a big upgrade at SS.

Incierte in the outfield.

And Blair probably isnt much worse than what they've had.

Swanson makes the deal a huge win since he looks like the real deal, absolutely raking. I just dont know how long you can keep him down.

Dansby's hit a bit of a rough patch the last several games in AA, which is good. There's no rush, let him play through the slumps and get comfortable.

Russ2dollas

05-14-2016, 11:55 AM

FIFY

Hope u r right. Bc he ain't hitting. Sss off injury. But not hitting

smootness

05-14-2016, 12:00 PM

Hope u r right. Bc he ain't hitting. Sss off injury. But not hitting

He had 8 AB pre-DL and has 25 AB post-DL. Yes, I'd say that's a SSS.

thewupk

05-14-2016, 01:13 PM

Wood is a 3-4 type, he isnt that good, and Peraza is a utility type.

Context.

And we trade them for someone in jail. The return should of been so much better then what we got. That is the point.

Heyward

05-14-2016, 02:53 PM

And we trade them for someone in jail. The return should of been so much better then what we got. That is the point.

Im not saying the trade was good, but not like we traded Arrieta.

thewupk

05-14-2016, 04:04 PM

Im not saying the trade was good, but not like we traded Arrieta.

nobody has ever said that either. your the one who makes that argument

Braves1976

05-14-2016, 04:15 PM

nobody has ever said that either. your the one who makes that argument

He tends to use extreme examples that way. What is funny to me is that he will make arguments and then also disagree with either the exact same or similar arguments when someone else makes them (and like above will use extreme examples to do so). I am not sure if it's just because he feels the need to play both sides as if playing devils advocate or if he just doesn't want to be seen as being negative, etc. But it seems rather double minded.

Heyward

05-14-2016, 08:14 PM

nobody has ever said that either. your the one who makes that argument

Not quite, lot of people said Wood was a 1-2, and i said he's a 3-4 type and got bashed for it, so not really.

thewupk

05-14-2016, 08:24 PM

Not quite, lot of people said Wood was a 1-2, and i said he's a 3-4 type and got bashed for it, so not really.

I doubt a lot of people called him a #1. He simply didn't go deep enough in games to warrant any consideration like that. However as a Brave he did perform as a 2/3. That is a statistical fact. Not so much with the Dodgers though.

zitothebrave

05-14-2016, 08:52 PM

Wood is a 3-4 type, he isnt that good, and Peraza is a utility type.

Context.

Wood is a 3-4 type? Since 2013 he's 57th in fWAR, just behind guys like Gallardo and Santana. This year his fWAR is just behind Julio and Scherzer, and ahead of guys like Hamels and Shields

Wood is a 2-3 type. I was all for trading wood because of health concerns, at some point he's gonna get wrecked, but there's no ****ing way does it make sense to trade him for an old prospect.

And Peraza is not a utility type, he's a light hitting MIF. By all reports his defense is excellent. Would you also call Albies a utility type?

smootness

05-14-2016, 11:17 PM

Would you also call Albies a utility type?

Woah woah woah. Peraza's and Albies' bats are not equal. They both have a lack of HR power in common, but that is where the comparisons end offensively.

yeezus

05-15-2016, 11:40 AM

I'll entertain the idea of Wood being a possible #2 when he's more than a 5 inning pitcher.

Preacher

05-15-2016, 11:59 AM

The Shelby Miller deal is an A+ and the Olivera deal is an F-

I probably weight the Miller deal a little more heavily because we still might salvage something from the draft pick but these two deals somewhat cancel each other out.

Wood as a young MOR type starter with years of cheap control had a ton of value, what he becomes with the LAD is irrelevant.

We completely squandered that value (and that of JP). As strong as our system is right now, we could have had another 2 or 3 really good pieces. We could have the answer at C or 3B if we had parlayed Wood correctly.

Instead we are left with a bad baseball player owed a lot of money who also hits women, a marginal prospect who is underperforming, a RP coming off injury and a decent draft pick. F-

Oklahomabrave

05-15-2016, 12:02 PM

Wish we could have traded wood and Peraza straight up for Austin Barnes and the draft pick.

smootness

05-15-2016, 12:40 PM

I probably weight the Miller deal a little more heavily because we still might salvage something from the draft pick but these two deals somewhat cancel each other out.

No, they do not cancel each other out. Yes, we could have gotten more for Wood and Peraza. Everyone agrees it was a bad trade. But we still came out ahead between them. I'll take Swanson, Inciarte, Blair, and a draft pick over Miller, Wood, and Peraza. Every day.

thewupk

05-15-2016, 12:42 PM

I'll entertain the idea of Wood being a possible #2 when he's more than a 5 inning pitcher.

That's pretty much what a 2-3 designation is. #2 ability but innings of a #3. His stats while in Atlanta were #2 worthy but not going deep into games held him back from being that valuable.

Preacher

05-15-2016, 01:01 PM

No, they do not cancel each other out. Yes, we could have gotten more for Wood and Peraza. Everyone agrees it was a bad trade. But we still came out ahead between them. I'll take Swanson, Inciarte, Blair, and a draft pick over Miller, Wood, and Peraza. Every day.

My point is you don't really know that because you don't know what type of return we could have gotten for Wood+Peraza.

NOBODY thought we could get the deal we got for Miller. I don't think it's impossible that we could have gotten an overpay for Wood+Peraza as well.

smootness

05-15-2016, 01:03 PM

My point is you don't really know that because you don't know what type of return we could have gotten for Wood+Peraza.

NOBODY thought we could get the deal we got for Miller. I don't think it's impossible that we could have gotten an overpay for Miller+Peraza as well.

Technically you're right, but nobody was going to fall in love with either of those guys like the D-Backs did with Miller. And I'd like to think we at least shopped them a little before pulling the trigger on that deal.

thewupk

05-15-2016, 01:21 PM

Technically you're right, but nobody was going to fall in love with either of those guys like the D-Backs did with Miller. And I'd like to think we at least shopped them a little before pulling the trigger on that deal.

I bet the Dodgers didn't think anybody was going to fall in love with Hector like the Braves did either.

chop2chip

05-15-2016, 01:39 PM

I bet the Dodgers didn't think anybody was going to fall in love with Hector like the Braves did either.
Well, let's remember who fell in love with him first.

The thing that sucks is LA probably doesn't make that trade if Justin Turner wasn't awesome last year.