Braves in the mix for Cuban Shortstop

[tvsportscaster]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/dodgers-twins-bosox-braves-in-on-guerrero.html

[Bdawg2309]

can he play 3rd/2nd?

[Braves1976]

I saw that, I wonder if we're really interested.

[Braves1976]

can he play 3rd/2nd?

Since he's a shortstop, you'd expect so. But while that's usually the case, it isn't always.

[Bdawg2309]

"average range and arm strength suggests a future at second base"

[Braves1976]

"average range and arm strength suggests a future at second base"

Hmm, almost sounds like Pastornicky. Maybe a bit better arm though.

[Garmel]

Yeah, he's been around a 1.0 OPS the last three years. I'd look at him for sure.

[Bdawg2309]

Hmm, almost sounds like Pastornicky. Maybe a bit better arm though.

there was a tweet that had said the dodgers signed him for 7/32. that he signed was wrong, but apparently the $$ is in the right ballpark

[Braves1976]

there was a tweet that had said the dodgers signed him for 7/32. that he signed was wrong, but apparently the $$ is in the right ballpark

If the Dodgers really want him, I don't see us beating their offer assuming our interest is accurate. But if it comes down to us and the Twins I'd expect he'd sign with us.

[The Chosen One]

Actually is quite comical how the Dodgers are throwing around money at a more ridiculous rate like the early 2000's Yankees.

[tvsportscaster]

David O'Brien‏@ajcbraves3m
#Braves have evaluated Cuban SS Alexander Guerrero, interested if price is right. Would move to 2B or 3B, obviously not play SS for ATL

[thethe]

I'd take the risk. More of these guys are working out.

[thethe]

Actually is quite comical how the Dodgers are throwing around money at a more ridiculous rate like the early 2000's Yankees.

Yup. Its not right.

[Braves1976]

David O'Brien‏@ajcbraves3m
#Braves have evaluated Cuban SS Alexander Guerrero, interested if price is right. Would move to 2B or 3B, obviously not play SS for ATL

That makes sense and good to see our interest. I'm just doubtful that the price will be right (thanks mostly to the Dodgers interest).

[Carp]

Dodgers will be back on bottom before too long. Ethier contract is already looking like an albatross. Kemp's may be as well if he can't stay on the field. Crawford and Gonzo will be in Ethier category before too long. Some awful, awful, contracts they have.

[tvsportscaster]

The fact they're taking a look at him, leads me to believe that perhaps the Braves have become disenchanted with Dan Uggla and are looking for a replacement.

[The Chosen One]

The fact they're taking a look at him, leads me to believe that perhaps the Braves have become disenchanted with Dan Uggla and are looking for a replacement.

I think that was a dead giveaway... but moreseo to probably invest long term.

Perhaps Puig convinces him to come over.

[thethe]

The fact they're taking a look at him, leads me to believe that perhaps the Braves have become disenchanted with Dan Uggla and are looking for a replacement.

Agreed. They will sell Uggla to the highest bidder this of season.

[drewdat]

Agreed. They will sell Uggla to the highest bidder this of season.

More like least low non-objector?

[ramadon101]

If the Braves agree to pickup a large portion of Uggla's contract, I suspect there may be a handful of teams with interest. As has been discussed here ad naseum already, he's approximately a league average 2B (he's just drastically overpaid). However since the remainder of his contract term is short, and most everything can be solved with throwing in money, I think those who think there won't be a market will be somewhat surprised (perhaps not pleasantly - I'm not saying we'll get back anything of value for him).

[thethe]

4-5 million a year for Uggla is a good deal.

[Teheran_49]

Yeah I think the writing is on the wall for Dan. If there is any way we can ship him out in the off-season you have to think FW will do it and let la Stella and Pastornicky battle it out for the 2b unless we can land this guy. I'm all for going after this guy. It seems the Cuban players have really panned out as of late and like Cespedes and Puig I'd be willing to bet he will have a really good first year but like Cespedes may come back down to earth in his second year.

I think a 4 years deal for 16-18 mil. would be a good deal. I think he could hit .280/20/75 his first year and at 2b that's all-star territory. Great build with a really nice swing.

[Braves1976]

The Braves may be considering him as our potential third baseman after CJ too. But again I don't see us outbidding the Dodgers if they really want him.

[Teheran_49]

The Braves may be considering him as our potential third baseman after CJ too. But again I don't see us outbidding the Dodgers if they really want him.

I say let the Dodgers over pay for him. I think he will be a solid player who will have a great first year but once his scouting report gets around it could be like Cespedes and Puig will come back down to earth. I see a lot of Frenchy in Puig.

[GovClintonTyree]

The fact they're taking a look at him, leads me to believe that perhaps the Braves have become disenchanted with Dan Uggla and are looking for a replacement.

I think forcing him to stop stinking up their batters box and go get LASIK was our first clue.

[GovClintonTyree]

I say let the Dodgers over pay for him. I think he will be a solid player who will have a great first year but once his scouting report gets around it could be like Cespedes and Puig will come back down to earth. I see a lot of Frenchy in Puig.

My big problem is that Puig is an asshole.

[stpeteirish]

Dodgers will be back on bottom before too long. Ethier contract is already looking like an albatross. Kemp's may be as well if he can't stay on the field. Crawford and Gonzo will be in Ethier category before too long. Some awful, awful, contracts they have.

money is not an issue-they get more money from their TV contract than anybody else, way more than most.

[stpeteirish]

The fact they're taking a look at him, leads me to believe that perhaps the Braves have become disenchanted with Dan Uggla and are looking for a replacement.

Yup, Guerrero's 26, they're not looking at someone who is going to spend 6 years in the minors. And this isn't utility infielder money they're talking about, either.

[bravebonebook]

My big problem is that Puig is an asshole.

Most of the Cuban players come across like that. Language barrier, their culture, machismo, whatever the factors are, Cuban players are stereotyped as bad teammates. Unfortunately for some, they earn the rep honestly.

[thethe]

Can the Braves ownership just please excite their fanbase just one time with a big ticket signing on the international front? If we end up getting a Cespedes or Puig type player we are going to be dominant.

[NYCBrave]

Can the Braves ownership just please excite their fanbase just one time with a big ticket signing on the international front? If we end up getting a Cespedes or Puig type player we are going to be dominant.

Kawakami wasn't exciting for you?? :tchop:

[PawPawMaxwell]

If there is finally disenchantment with Uggla, now that Angels have placed Aybar on waivers and say that Kendrick is available. My question, would anyone be interested in Aybar for Uggla and a little money as opposed to lots of money later on.

Aybar sould be owed 25M or so over next 3 years and would be viewed as a costly bench player who can settle the need for Janish or even Pastornicky.

[Temo]

Yup. Its not right.

I don't know about "not right". They got a giant TV deal. I'm glad the players will benefit instead of the owners just pocketing all that cash.

[thethe]

I don't know about "not right". They got a giant TV deal. I'm glad the players will benefit instead of the owners just pocketing all that cash.

Thats not the part that is "not right" to me. Its the uneven playing ground that these teams are on. You can't say to the sport is fair when one team can spend 200 million dollars and some teams would lose money spending 60 million.

[zitothebrave]

If there is finally disenchantment with Uggla, now that Angels have placed Aybar on waivers and say that Kendrick is available. My question, would anyone be interested in Aybar for Uggla and a little money as opposed to lots of money later on.

Aybar sould be owed 25M or so over next 3 years and would be viewed as a costly bench player who can settle the need for Janish or even Pastornicky.

Wait so we won't pay Uggla 26 million over the next 2 years, but we'd pay Aybar 25 over 3?

Now all that said. I would make the trade if we knew we'd get max value for Johnson in the offseason. Because in one fell swoop we could redo our team. Imagine if you will

2B - LaStella
RF - Heyward
LF - Justin
1B - Freeman
C - Mac (though honestly I think he's probably have to go)
CF - Bossman
SS - Simmons
3B - Aybar

We'd go from weak at 3B and 2B to potentially strong at both.

[ChadWC]

I'd get excited for this guy. It would be great to get rid of Uggla's money and replace him with a cheaper, better player. I'd like to see this happen just to think that we have some hope of getting out of Uggla's contract.

[50PoundHead]

The fact they're taking a look at him, leads me to believe that perhaps the Braves have become disenchanted with Dan Uggla and are looking for a replacement.

But . . . but . . . but. . .

We're not a team that can afford to pay someone who is playing for someone else, but something tells me that's what we'll be doing with Uggla. And like ramadon says, there will be a market for him in the AL.

If the Braves aren't disenchanted with Uggla, there is something seriously wrong with the folks making the decisions. He's league average offensively, but I don't care what the metrics say, the guy is not a good 2B. He plays "bat" and if he's not hitting, he doesn't bring enough to the table otherwise to earn his keep.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Wait so we won't pay Uggla 26 million over the next 2 years, but we'd pay Aybar 25 over 3?

Now all that said. I would make the trade if we knew we'd get max value for Johnson in the offseason. Because in one fell swoop we could redo our team. Imagine if you will

2B - LaStella
RF - Heyward
LF - Justin
1B - Freeman
C - Mac (though honestly I think he's probably have to go)
CF - Bossman
SS - Simmons
3B - Aybar

We'd go from weak at 3B and 2B to potentially strong at both.
It would give 4 more Mill to sign Mac, strengthen the bench, eliminate the need for Janish, another credible bat on the bench. And, dont forget Johnson is a super 2. Who knows what he will cost.

[zitothebrave]

Johnson is arb 2 I assume you meant to say.

Aybar makes way too much to ride the bench. And honestly he's too good to ride the bench as well.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Johnson is arb 2 I assume you meant to say.

Aybar makes way too much to ride the bench. And honestly he's too good to ride the bench as well.
As a super 2 doesnt he get 4 arb years? If that is the case then soon he will be much too costly for the Braves to keep. Ergo, Aybar in waiting so to speak.

[gilesfan]

4-5 million a year for Uggla is a good deal.

Not really, he's only heading in 1 direction.

[zitothebrave]

As a super 2 doesnt he get 4 arb years? If that is the case then soon he will be much too costly for the Braves to keep. Ergo, Aybar in waiting so to speak.

Yes. My concern with Johnson is he wins the battling title, that allows him to be an exception to normal arb raises.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Yes. My concern with Johnson is he wins the battling title, that allows him to be an exception to normal arb raises.

Exactly. Move Uggla, resign Mac if the FO determines that is the best course. Then imagine what you can get in trade for Gattis and Johnson. Start with Castellanos or Profar.

[GovClintonTyree]

Most of the Cuban players come across like that. Language barrier, their culture, machismo, whatever the factors are, Cuban players are stereotyped as bad teammates. Unfortunately for some, they earn the rep honestly.

Gio Gonzalez is Cuban. So is Fredi. I don't think he's an asshole because he's Cuban. I think he's a Cuban asshole.

[gilesfan]

Gio was born in Florida and I doubt he has spent time in Cuban (if any).

Thats a little different than the players that have defected

[50PoundHead]

Not really, he's only heading in 1 direction.

He's heading in one direction, but at $4 M to $5 M per year, he could be a decent DH candidate in the right situation. I get he's the classic 3-outcome guy, but I just don't think that much of him as a player.

[gilesfan]

He's heading in one direction, but at $4 M to $5 M per year, he could be a decent DH candidate in the right situation. I get he's the classic 3-outcome guy, but I just don't think that much of him as a player.

AL team gonna want to pay 4 million for a low to mid .700 OPS guy?

[thethe]

4 million is chump change to some teams. Dan will always be a guy that can hit a home run. There will be takers.

[Hawk]

4 million is chump change to some teams. Dan will always be a guy that can hit a home run. There will be takers.

Agreed, plus I feel Dan has a good reputation as a worker / 'clubhouse guy' ...

It's hard not to be a fan, though. I was excited when the Braves acquired him.

[Tapate50]

AL team gonna want to pay 4 million for a low to mid .700 OPS guy?

Let's not act like there is a glutton of 2B talent out there.

[PawPawMaxwell]

4 million is chump change to some teams. Dan will always be a guy that can hit a home run. There will be takers.
Agree with this. If you could predict the outcome of games and told your fans that you will win tonite 1-0 on an unearned run, there would not be 1000 fans in the stands.
Teams like Seattle, Minn (maybe) CWS, even Toronto is possible would line up for Uggla with the right offer from Wren.

[Dunit24]

There is no question Dans #s look horrible, but he has 21 HR, was an all-star just last year, and hes coming off LASIK surgery where who knows how much it will improve him or not being able to see the ball. My point is there will be takers. Question is how much money are we willing to eat? At the end of the day, I dont see Dan Uggla getting traded.

[gilesfan]

Uggla was not at an all star level last year.

The Braves hardly, if ever, eat contracts. That is gonna further complicate any Dan Uggla deals.

[jpx7]

Uggla was not at an all star level last year.

Maybe not, but he still made the All-Star team, and people actually put stock in that (even if they shouldn't).

Also: his middle-name is "Cooley."

[Dunit24]

Uggla was not at an all star level last year.

The Braves hardly, if ever, eat contracts. That is gonna further complicate any Dan Uggla deals.

Last I checked, making the All-Star team means you were an All-Star. Hes been an all star before and no other 2B have hit more HRs than him since hes been around. As for eating contracts...see Derek Lowe. If the right offer comes along, Wren will trade Uggla. I just think at the end of the day, we are keeping him.

[thethe]

Uggla was not at an all star level last year.

The Braves hardly, if ever, eat contracts. That is gonna further complicate any Dan Uggla deals.

The Braves have an in house replacement that could potentially provide the same production at league minimum. The Braves won't look at as eating money. They will look at it as saving money to re-invest into the team.

Other teams with NO options at second base will be interested.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Uggla was not at an all star level last year.

The Braves hardly, if ever, eat contracts. That is gonna further complicate any Dan Uggla deals.
Derek Lowe and Kawakami ring any bells iwth you

[PawPawMaxwell]

The Braves have an in house replacement that could potentially provide the same production at league minimum. The Braves won't look at as eating money. They will look at it as saving money to re-invest into the team.

Other teams with NO options at second base will be interested.
Im not ready to go that far. Assume you mean LaStella. If they thought he was the answer doubt they would even be interested in Guerrero at 30M or so.

[gilesfan]

Derek Lowe and Kawakami ring any bells iwth you

When did the Braves east any money with Kawakami?

Since they ate some money with Lowe, that fits into the hardly ever category.

[Dunit24]

When did the Braves east any money with Kawakami?

Since they ate some money with Lowe, that fits into the hardly ever category.

If you want to just take the Lowe example - that shows you that if Wren has something better in mind to improve the team(see thethe's last post), then he is going to do it even if he has to "eat" the money. When Wren has his mind made up ala Lowe, hes going to get something done.

[PawPawMaxwell]

When did the Braves east any money with Kawakami?

Since they ate some money with Lowe, that fits into the hardly ever category.
They ate money by paying him not to play. Throwing money away doesnt always mean you throw it to another team.

[thethe]

Well, the Dodgers are at it again.

I am so sick of teams having so much more money than the rest of the others. Even if this guy flops it won't hurt the Dodgers but if he becomes great then they have another great player.

http://www.truebluela.com/2013/10/21/4862398/alexander-guerrero-contract-dodgers

[Bdawg2309]

Well, the Dodgers are at it again.

I am so sick of teams having so much more money than the rest of the others. Even if this guy flops it won't hurt the Dodgers but if he becomes great then they have another great player.

http://www.truebluela.com/2013/10/21/4862398/alexander-guerrero-contract-dodgers

at THAT price?? i'm sure plenty of other teams could've been in the mix.

[50PoundHead]

There are questions whether Guerrero is good enough to warrant a huge investment and my guess is we could have matched this offer easily if we weren't throwing almost $30 million per year down a rat hole.

So don't blame the Dodgers for our inability to manage a budget wisely.

[thethe]

There are questions whether Guerrero is good enough to warrant a huge investment and my guess is we could have matched this offer easily if we weren't throwing almost $30 million per year down a rat hole.

So don't blame the Dodgers for our inability to manage a budget wisely.

Dodgers can make bad decisions and still spend 10X more money. Braves have to be perfect with the allocation of their resources. Dodgers wouldn't blink to make this deal at all even if they had Uggla/Upton on their books.

[50PoundHead]

But the point doesn't matter whether or not the Dodgers blink. What matters is what we can realistically do and our realm of the possible has been diminished by a couple of Wren's bone-headed decisions.

Hey, I hate to carp on Wren too much. We won the division. But he has really made some doozeys and we have to be more careful than we were a decade ago.

[nsacpi]

The one thing that teams like the Dodgers and Yankees can do that we can't is give out an enormous contract to a great pitcher. The Yankees did this with CC. The Dodgers with Greinke this off-season and soon with Kershaw. For a mid-market team like us it is not a prudent risk to tie a huge proportion of payroll to a pitcher. Some mid-market teams have done this (the Mariners with Felix Hernandez) but I don't think doing something like that is prudent or wise given our finances.

[Tapate50]

Prudent gets you a prompt first round exit from the playoffs apparently.

[nsacpi]

Prudent gets you a prompt first round exit from the playoffs apparently.

I realize this is not a universally held perspective around here, but my preference as a fan is to have a team that contends year in year out. It doesn't upset me as much as others to see us bounced out of the playoffs. There is nothing that guarantees success in the playoffs. Detroit has dominant starting pitching and didn't make the WS. Ditto for LA who have Kershaw and Greinke. Sure there are some things you can do to improve your post-season chances, but no guarantees. And if the price tag for those improvements is exorbitant I'd rather skip them and take my chances with a good team that may be lacking a little when it comes to dominant pitching. At any rate, I think the chances are pretty good that one or more of our young pitchers will develop into an ace.

[Tapate50]

I realize this is not a universally held perspective around here, but my preference as a fan is to have a team that contends year in year out. It doesn't upset me as much as others to see us bounced out of the playoffs. There is nothing that guarantees success in the playoffs. Detroit has dominant starting pitching and didn't make the WS. Ditto for LA who have Kershaw and Greinke. Sure there are some things you can do to improve your post-season chances, but no guarantees. And if the price tag for those improvements is exorbitant I'd rather skip them and take my chances with a good team that may be lacking a little when it comes to dominant pitching. At any rate, I think the chances are pretty good that one or more of our young pitchers will develop into an ace.

I know, i was just blowing off steam about our "prudent" team. They just disappointed again is all.

[holden]

I realize this is not a universally held perspective around here, but my preference as a fan is to have a team that contends year in year out. It doesn't upset me as much as others to see us bounced out of the playoffs. There is nothing that guarantees success in the playoffs. Detroit has dominant starting pitching and didn't make the WS. Ditto for LA who have Kershaw and Greinke. Sure there are some things you can do to improve your post-season chances, but no guarantees. And if the price tag for those improvements is exorbitant I'd rather skip them and take my chances with a good team that may be lacking a little when it comes to dominant pitching. At any rate, I think the chances are pretty good that one or more of our young pitchers will develop into an ace.

good post.

play-offs are a crapshoot. billy beane is right. wren's job is to get us there. after that, can't go after him. (that's when you attack the manager!)

[Teheran_49]

well if FW signs him then you can guarantee he will be a bust.

[Teheran_49]

good post.

play-offs are a crapshoot. billy beane is right. wren's job is to get us there. after that, can't go after him. (that's when you attack the manager!)

The how the hell do the cardinals and Giants routinely play in the WS for the NL? Every year the cardinals have these no name pitchers do really well for them in the play-offs to never be heard from again. It's also funny how both teams have line-ups that aren't built for power but guys that get on base, don't strike out and manufacture runs.....you know the kind of hitters like Tommy La Stella,Freddie Freeman and Chris Johnson.

[nsacpi]

The how the hell do the cardinals and Giants routinely play in the WS for the NL? Every year the cardinals have these no name pitchers do really well for them in the play-offs to never be heard from again. It's also funny how both teams have line-ups that aren't built for power but guys that get on base, don't strike out and manufacture runs.....you know the kind of hitters like Tommy La Stella,Freddie Freeman and Chris Johnson.

I would say good managing, and some big performances from both their stars and role players have pushed the Giants and Cards over the top. Also getting hot at the right time, which I believe is partly a product of good managing. Some names that have featured for those two teams--Carpenter, Wainwright, Freese, Sandoval, Zito, Sanchez, Uribe, Renteria. It is a mix of things. Ah let's not forget Pat Burrell. We need someone like Pat the Bat to get over the top.

[Knucksie]

Well, the Dodgers are at it again.

I am so sick of teams having so much more money than the rest of the others. Even if this guy flops it won't hurt the Dodgers but if he becomes great then they have another great player.

http://www.truebluela.com/2013/10/21/4862398/alexander-guerrero-contract-dodgers


Don't get too upset. It's both a blessing and a curse. Wealthy clubs have been burned in the past in signing Japanese and Cuban FA's.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Where are all the big payroll teams sitting today????

[Teheran_49]

Don't get too upset. It's both a blessing and a curse. Wealthy clubs have been burned in the past in signing Japanese and Cuban FA's.

I think the more high profiled ones have worked out rather well. Yu Darvish is a stud, Puig has enormous talent and put the dodgers back in contention when their season was going no where, Cespedes had an off season but has been exactly what Oakland needed and Aroldis Chapman is a dominant closer that k's 2+/IP. I don't think this guy is a star so we'll see but the "huge" stars and the guys that have gotten a ton of publicity have turned out rather well,IMO.

[50PoundHead]

good post.

play-offs are a crapshoot. billy beane is right. wren's job is to get us there. after that, can't go after him. (that's when you attack the manager!)

Only about 10,000 baseball people said that same thing before Billy Beane.

[Knucksie]

I think the more high profiled ones have worked out rather well. Yu Darvish is a stud, Puig has enormous talent and put the dodgers back in contention when their season was going no where, Cespedes had an off season but has been exactly what Oakland needed and Aroldis Chapman is a dominant closer that k's 2+/IP. I don't think this guy is a star so we'll see but the "huge" stars and the guys that have gotten a ton of publicity have turned out rather well,IMO.

Again, it's a blessing and a course. Everybody knows the stars. Then everybody forgets Jose Contrares and Hideki Irabu. (Nobody here forgets Kawakami.) Fans can debate if what Dice K was paid was worthy of the hype. It's just that with the fees, and the enormous bidding process, there are other ways to obtain international talent. That's why the Braves have mined other parts of Latin American & the Carribean.

[holden]

The how the hell do the cardinals and Giants routinely play in the WS for the NL? Every year the cardinals have these no name pitchers do really well for them in the play-offs to never be heard from again. It's also funny how both teams have line-ups that aren't built for power but guys that get on base, don't strike out and manufacture runs.....you know the kind of hitters like Tommy La Stella,Freddie Freeman and Chris Johnson.

luck.

1/4 chance.

[holden]

Only about 10,000 baseball people said that same thing before Billy Beane.

not sure what you're trying to say; doesn't make it any less true

[Knucksie]

not sure what you're trying to say; doesn't make it any less true

Billy Beane isn't the Final Authority. That's what he means.

[50PoundHead]

Billy Beane isn't the Final Authority. That's what he means.

What Knucksie said. I'm not holding anything against Beane. I just find it hilarious that some people believe he invented baseball.

[Knucksie]

What Knucksie said. I'm not holding anything against Beane. I just find it hilarious that some people believe he invented baseball.

Back during my undergrad days at college, Syd Thrift was my favorite GM. Seemed like every move he made in Pittsburgh (drafting and trading) was intended to reduce payroll, while stockpiling young talent. That favorable impression turned out to correct, as it led to the Pirates made the NLCS in 3 straight years. Eventually, the game passed him by or he just got senile.

Billy Beane definitely has a sharp mind, but he's made his mistake, too. The book and movie enhances his stature, and, of course, he's seen as some sort of guru by amateur sabermetricians. Nevertheless, there's always been creative GM's in baseball.

[zitothebrave]

Book was probably his biggest mistake, Made OBP a much bigger thing and took away his cheap goldmine faster than he anticipated I believe.

[Knucksie]

Book was probably his biggest mistake, Made OBP a much bigger thing and took away his cheap goldmine faster than he anticipated I believe.

Not only that, but a larger part of the A's success, that year, was due to MVP perform of Tejada and Big 3 (Mulder, Hudson, Zito) starting pitchers. Those factors were barely acknowledged.

[Julio3000]

Just looking at the title of this thread, I'll submit that if there is a "mix" for a high-profile international FA, the Braves by definition aren't in it.

[yeezus]

Not only that, but a larger part of the A's success, that year, was due to MVP perform of Tejada and Big 3 (Mulder, Hudson, Zito) starting pitchers. Those factors were barely acknowledged.

I agree with what you've said, but the book was about how he built a consistent winning ball club and the kind of GM he was, as well as the stat part. So while it mostly occurred in that specific season, the team's overall success that year was more underlying, to me.

[50PoundHead]

I agree with what you've said, but the book was about how he built a consistent winning ball club and the kind of GM he was, as well as the stat part. So while it mostly occurred in that specific season, the team's overall success that year was more underlying, to me.

Well, he built a consistent winning ballclub by drafting and signing some quality guys that formed the core of the team and he should get credit for that, but I have never seen that the core of that team being built on the basis of the methodology that was outlined in the book. He took a flyer of Zito over Sheets (which was criticized at the time) that turned out right. Giambi fits the supposed Moneyball "type," but he was a 2nd round pick and he wouldn't have lasted the 2nd round if the A's had passed on him. Tejada was a great player in his prime. Hudson has been spectacular and Mulder was solid (at least as an A).

The thing that really makes me laugh is that he traded Carlos Pena and kept Scott Hatteberg (of course, he did get Ted Lilly in the Pena trade, but he did throw in Bonderman because he was probably still pissed at Grady Fuson for drafting him in the first place). Anyway, Beane is a good GM. His record speaks for itself, but the thing I found interesting is that this past summer, when asked about some changes in the way the A's have approached the game over the past decade, he said something to the effect "it all depends on who is on the team." I guess that's the approach a lot of us have adhered to when watching baseball. There's a lot of ways to win games offensively IF you have solid pitching and I think the approach advocated in Moneyball was as much about Michael Lewis' conjecture as it was about what the A's were doing. For the record, two years after the A's Moneyball draft, Lewis wrote a New York Times Magazine article that simply crucified the A's minor league instructional staff for not successfully developing the guys the A's had selected in that draft, specifically Steve Stanley.

Anyway, Beane has done a fantastic job of putting together a great young rotation through both drafts and trades so they may be around for awhile. And he's proven himself flexible and inventive. And in perhaps my strongest endorsement of him, it's my guess he would have never signed Uggla to the kind of extension Wren did even if he had the money lying around.

I guess my main beef when he is brought up is that those of us who have been baseball fans for 50-plus years are fully aware and support a lot of the common sense aspects of the Moneyball approach without having to throw in with the whole "rebel" part of the equation that Lewis seems intent on pushing. Good players are good players. They always are and they always will be. Risk always has to be balanced against reward and if you don't have a big budget, you can't assume much risk. You have to play at the margins, which you can do and still be successful if you have solid pitching.