Swanson and Albies

[Preacher]

Not to add another topic with these guys, but I think the decision on who's playing SS has to come pretty soon, like in a month or two.

Here's how I see this thing unfolding, if Swanson keeps playing well at AA, in a month or two he's going to get called up to join Albies in the infield; at that point the Braves should make the decision on who's going to SS and who's staying at 2B.

Then you let the two of them play together and develop that familiarity at AAA for a month or two before potentially calling one or both of them up around September.

I'm guessing the Braves already know which one is going to be the SS.

[nsacpi]

Not to add another topic with these guys, but I think the decision on who's playing SS has to come pretty soon, like in a month or two.



What's the hurry. Seems to me we can wait until spring training. In fact I would want them to play a few weeks in AAA next year on service time grounds. I suspect the club already has an idea. But we can get some additional information by having them alternate positions while playing together in Gwinnett for a couple months this year and a few weeks next year.

[Preacher]

What's the hurry. Seems to me we can wait until spring training. In fact I would want them to play a few weeks in AAA next year on service time grounds. I suspect the club already has an idea. But we can get some additional information by having them alternate positions while playing together in Gwinnett for a couple months this year and a few weeks next year.

I completely in every way agree with you.

I just don't think the club does, I think they feel a strange need to get these players up as soon as possible.

[CJ9]

I completely in every way agree with you.

I just don't think the club does, I think they feel a strange need to get these players up as soon as possible.

Yep, I don't get it either. It feels shortsighted because this current team sucks.

[chop2chip]

If we are dead set on having both of them in the opening day lineup next year, then call them both up as soon as the Super 2 deadline passes. They provide more value in Atlanta, then Gwinnett, since it won't impact Super 2 or years of control.

Personally, I would prefer to keep them both down until May of next year, but I think there is a business reason that keeps that from being possible.

[bravesfanMatt]

Yep, I don't get it either. It feels shortsighted because this current team sucks.

Ozzie has made it clear he wants to be in the MLB while a teenager.. If the club decides to dick around with him just to save an arb year, then you run the risk of pissing him off for future extension. I would rather promote when they are ready and just buy them out of a few FA years. I don't think locking up Ozzie through his prime years would be a bad move at all..

[nsacpi]

If we are dead set on having both of them in the opening day lineup next year, then call them both up as soon as the Super 2 deadline passes. They provide more value in Atlanta, then Gwinnett, since it won't impact Super 2 or years of control.

Personally, I would prefer to keep them both down until May of next year, but I think there is a business reason that keeps that from being possible.
What is the business reason.

[CJ9]

Ozzie has made it clear he wants to be in the MLB while a teenager.. If the club decides to dick around with him just to save an arb year, then you run the risk of pissing him off for future extension. I would rather promote when they are ready and just buy them out of a few FA years. I don't think locking up Ozzie through his prime years would be a bad move at all..

If a guy who is 19 years old for eight more months gets pissed that we won't put him in the big leagues, then he has bigger issues to worry about.

[bravesfanMatt]

If a guy who is 19 years old for eight more months gets pissed that we won't put him in the big leagues, then he has bigger issues to worry about.

No it is about respect. I personally don't want a Bryant situation, when we could easily buy him out of FA for pennies on the dollars if we strike early enough.

[CJ9]

No it is about respect. I personally don't want a Bryant situation, when we could easily buy him out of FA for pennies on the dollars if we strike early enough.

Bryant was 23 years old when that happened. There wasn't much more room for development in the minors.

[nsacpi]

I have not seen anything to indicate that waiting until next year would affect the club's future dealings with either player.

[nsacpi]

And I might note that we had no trouble signing Freeman to a long term deal and he played almost a full year in AAA. We were not able to sign his contemporary who skipped AAA. Not saying that this is anything definitive or that there weren't other factors. But there is no evidence in this situation that waiting until next year will affect the future business relationship with either player.

[chop2chip]

What is the business reason.
So, your bosses bosses just spent a few hundred million dollars on a new stadium. There may be a considerable amount of pressure (if much choice at all) from them to make sure the opening act is U2 and not a cover band.

GMs speak about this external marketing pressure that constrains their decision making all the time.

[nsacpi]

So, your bosses bosses just spent a few hundred million dollars on a new stadium. There may be a considerable amount of pressure (if much choice at all) from them to make sure the opening act is U2 and not a cover band.

GMs speak about this external marketing pressure that constrains their decision making all the time.

If I were the boss I would care about the bottom line. And not just for one particular accounting period.

In terms of the stadium situation, the novelty aspect will propel attendance for a while. Whether Albies and Swanson come up April 1 or May 1 will have minimal effect on revenues.

[bravesfanMatt]

And I might note that we had no trouble signing Freeman to a long term deal and he played almost a full year in AAA. We were not able to sign his contemporary who skipped AAA. Not saying that this is anything definitive or that there weren't other factors. But there is no evidence in this situation that waiting until next year will affect the future business relationship with either player.

one thing <> to the other..

not saying we put him in the bigs just to make 'fans' happy. just if he proves he is ready at 19.. then you have a special player and bring his ass up and buy him out of FA... don't be a dick and try to control everyone's arb clock.. Show you respect his wishes and reward him for working his ass off to make said dream/goal happen.

[nsacpi]

The club has put Albies on a very fast track. It boggles my mind that there are those around here who think he will feel disrespected if he has to wait a few months after his 20th birthday to make the majors. And furthermore that those feelings of disrespect will affect his future dealings with the club.

[chop2chip]

If I were the boss I would care about the bottom line. And not just for one particular accounting period.

In terms of the stadium situation, the novelty aspect will propel attendance for a while. Whether Albies and Swanson come up April 1 or May 1 will have minimal effect on revenues.
I don't know their revenue models, so I won't speak to that. In fact, I doubt it would have much to do with bottom line revenue. It makes baseball sense to keep both of them down until May, but I don't think the powers at be are all that interested in our opening day double play combo consisting of Jace Peterson and Daniel Castro.

[nsacpi]

I don't know their revenue models, so I won't speak to that. In fact, I doubt it would have much to do with bottom line revenue. It makes baseball sense to keep both of them down until May, but I don't think the powers at be are all that interested in our opening day double play combo consisting of Jace Peterson and Daniel Castro.

In which case we can re-sign Aybar. The price won't be prohibitive.

[mfree80]

The club has put Albies on a very fast track. It boggles my mind that there are those around here who think he will feel disrespected if he has to wait a few months after his 20th birthday to make the majors. And furthermore that those feelings of disrespect will affect his future dealings with the club.

This is only an issue if he has "proven" that he is ready, and is still kept down purely for service time purposes. Now when has someone "proven" that they are ready? That is a little subjective. If he wants to be up at 19, but is clearly not ready, then okay. But, if he is held back even though he is clearly ready, then I can see him being disgruntled.

The subjective judgment about when he is actually ready is where there might be disagreement. It should not be ONLY for service time.

[chop2chip]

In which case we can re-sign Aybar. The price won't be prohibitive.

I think you are missing the point

(that's not to say you aren't right because I agree with you 100% from the baseball ops angle)

[nsacpi]

I think you are missing the point

(that's not to say you aren't right because I agree with you 100% from the baseball ops angle)

I do get your point. I was kidding about bringing back Aybar. It would not surprise me to see the front office succumb to perceived pressure and bring them up this year.

[nsacpi]

It should not be ONLY for service time.

Of course not. Albies is not physically mature. He might hurt his pinkie playing against grown men. We're only doing this to protect his health.

[chop2chip]

I do get your point. I was kidding about bringing back Aybar. It would not surprise me to see the front office succumb to perceived pressure and bring them up this year.

I wouldn't even say it's a decision that's ultimately held by the FO. Now, the best part about Liberty is that they are completely disconnected from the Braves. Consequently, that's also the worst part about them. Hopefully that would mean we don't have anybody higher than McGuirk that's calling Braves related shots, but I do know that he meets with Liberty and he has to report on the team. I'm sure those reports explain the embarrassment by talking about the young players who will be joining the team soon. It may be difficult for McGuirk to then justify asking for a higher budget without first demonstrating that there is a plan in place to have these great young players up soon.

Bottomline, I think it's a given that Albies and Swanson are on the team opening day next year. If that's the case, then lets get them up this year (if they are ready). We don't benefit any keeping them in Gwinnett.

[nsacpi]

I wouldn't even say it's a decision that's ultimately held by the FO. Now, the best part about Liberty is that they are completely disconnected from the Braves. Consequently, that's also the worst part about them. Hopefully that would mean we don't have anybody higher than McGuirk that's calling Braves related shots, but I do know that he meets with Liberty and he has to report on the team. I'm sure those reports explain the embarrassment by talking about the young players who will be joining the team soon. It may be difficult for McGuirk to then justify asking for a higher budget without first demonstrating that there is a plan in place to have these great young players up soon.

Bottomline, I think it's a given that Albies and Swanson are on the team opening day next year. If that's the case, then lets get them up this year (if they are ready). We don't benefit any keeping them in Gwinnett.

McGuirk should explain to them how he is saving them 15M bucks by not trading for Billy Butler.

[Enscheff]

Both guys are currently starting to scuffle a bit at their new levels. They will need to prove they can snap out of a rough stretch before they are even considered for a MLB job.

Anyone that thinks 2 weeks of Albies and Swanson in 2017 is worth more than a full year of those players in 2023, in terms of wins, revenue or "respect", should be immediately removed from any official capacity they may have with the Atlanta Braves. The undeniably correct application of player assets is to promote Swanson to AAA in a couple months and allow them to play together for the rest of this season and a few weeks of 2017.

[chop2chip]

Both guys are currently starting to scuffle a bit at their new levels. They will need to prove they can snap out of a rough stretch before they are even considered for a MLB job.

Anyone that thinks 2 weeks of Albies and Swanson in 2017 is worth more than a full year of those players in 2023, in terms of wins, revenue or "respect", should be immediately removed from any official capacity they may have with the Atlanta Braves. The undeniably correct application of player assets is to promote Swanson to AAA in a couple months and allow them to play together for the rest of this season and a few weeks of 2017.
And when your boss asks you what the plan is for those two and you tell him that and he says "no", what are you going to say next?

It's really easy for us to be a better general manager with hindsight and free of bureaucratic pressures, but that's not Coppy's reality.

[nsacpi]

I have to say that I have not seen any evidence to support the "petulant Albies" or "micro-managing big boss" theories.

[msstate7]

Wonder if plummeting ticket sales this year will play into a decision to bring them up sometime after the AS break

[chop2chip]

I have to say that I have not seen any evidence to support the "petulant Albies" or "micro-managing big boss" theories.

And you won't see evidence of neither if Coppy is doing his job well, but that doesn't make either theory more or less plausible.

[nsacpi]

Wonder if plummeting ticket sales this year will play into a decision to bring them up sometime after the AS break

It could. But would that be a rational response?

[Enscheff]

And when your boss asks you what the plan is for those two and you tell him that and he says "no", what are you going to say next?

It's really easy for us to be a better general manager with hindsight and free of bureaucratic pressures, but that's not Coppy's reality.

I have no idea what Coppy's bosses are telling him, or if there is even any pressure like you suggest coming from the higher-ups. If anyone thinks Swanson and Albies should start 2017 at the MLB level, whether that person is Coppy, Hart, JS, McQ or Mr. Liberty himself, then that person needs to be removed from their position. Just because they are higher ranking and in a position to get what they want does not make them right.

It would be different if the team were truly going to compete for a playoff spot like they were Heyward's rookie year. I can understand wanting the best players possible on a contender, even for those few weeks, so it was at least defensible (yet still incorrect) to burn a year of Heyward's control in order to get into the playoffs his rookie year. However, the 2017 Braves will be competing for a .500 record, not a playoff spot, so there is zero reason to burn a year of control for Albies and Swanson in 2017.

[Enscheff]

One thing we may be failing to realize is the new CBA might very well eliminate the ability to keep a prospect down for 2 weeks and gain another year of control.

If the new CBA would require that prospect to be held down for 6-8 weeks, then it makes more sense to start the year with Swanson and Albies on the MLB roster.

Further, if that's the case with the new CBA and it's a given they will start 2017 on the MLB roster, it makes little sense to keep them down this year once the super-2 deadline has passed. Provided they are producing in AAA over the next couple months, of course.

[chop2chip]

I have no idea what Coppy's bosses are telling him, or if there is even any pressure like you suggest coming from the higher-ups. If anyone thinks Swanson and Albies should start 2017 at the MLB level, whether that person is Coppy, Hart, JS, McQ or Mr. Liberty himself, then that person needs to be removed from their position. Just because they are higher ranking and in a position to get what they want does not make them right.

It would be different if the team were truly going to compete for a playoff spot like they were Heyward's rookie year. I can understand wanting the best players possible on a contender, even for those few weeks, so it was at least defensible (yet still incorrect) to burn a year of Heyward's control in order to get into the playoffs his rookie year. However, the 2017 Braves will be competing for a .500 record, not a playoff spot, so there is zero reason to burn a year of control for Albies and Swanson in 2017.

If we are arguing what's in the best interest of the team, then sure I don't think anyone would debate any of that is incorrect (except Heyward - that opening day moment was worth the extra year alone). But we can't debate a utopic scenario because there isn't a way for the baseball ops team to remove Mr. Liberty or Mr. McGuirk from their positions. Consider it a preemptive defense of a really smart GM that no doubts understands the implications of calling them up early.

[msstate7]

It could. But would that be a rational response?

According to your POV. If ticket sales put food on your table, it would be a rational response. If you were a GM building a team for the long term, probably not

[bravesfanMatt]

If we are arguing what's in the best interest of the team, then sure I don't think anyone would debate any of that is incorrect (except Heyward - that opening day moment was worth the extra year alone). But we can't debate a utopic scenario because there isn't a way for the baseball ops team to remove Mr. Liberty or Mr. McGuirk from their positions. Consider it a preemptive defense of a really smart GM that no doubts understands the implications of calling them up early.


2 weeks of OA and DS is not worth losing a year of control.. however, I am not opposed of just farking the norm and buying out their prime years at a huge discount.. forget this BS about control and super 2.. just make them your corner stone infield for the next 8 years..

[smootness]

One thing we may be failing to realize is the new CBA might very well eliminate the ability to keep a prospect down for 2 weeks and gain another year of control.

If the new CBA would require that prospect to be held down for 6-8 weeks, then it makes more sense to start the year with Swanson and Albies on the MLB roster.

Further, if that's the case with the new CBA and it's a given they will start 2017 on the MLB roster, it makes little sense to keep them down this year once the super-2 deadline has passed. Provided they are producing in AAA over the next couple months, of course.

I think this is probably going to happen. It's far too easy for a team to gain an extra year of relatively cheap control as it is.

[chop2chip]

2 weeks of OA and DS is not worth losing a year of control.. however, I am not opposed of just farking the norm and buying out their prime years at a huge discount.. forget this BS about control and super 2.. just make them your corner stone infield for the next 8 years.. If you call them up in July, then it's an extra 3 months + 2 weeks + opening day for your new stadium (keep in mind you are trying like hell to sell season tickets at much higher rates than you had at Turner field).

Gentelmen - do you really believe this is only a question of playing these guys two extra weeks?

[nsacpi]

Gentelmen - do you really believe this is only a question of playing these guys two extra weeks?

For me that's not really the issue. The issue to me is a preference for contractual control over Albies age 26 season rather than a fraction of his age 19 season. That's what we're really giving up by calling him up this year rather than a few weeks into the 2017 season. I don't see anything but the most minimal of attendance bumps by bringing him up this year. And even if he played very well in the majors this year the value of that is greatly eroded by the fact that we are not competing for anything this season.

[Russ2dollas]

I like the rapid promotion. They were killing it.

Posters said they needed to make adjustments. Well that would not happen if they killed it.

Now they both get some adversity. Good for them.

I wouldn't consider bringing them up until roster expansion.

If they both dominate and I'm getting pressure fun I pit them on the same team in aaa to get pl excited. Then the year ends

[Horsehide Harry]

One thing we may be failing to realize is the new CBA might very well eliminate the ability to keep a prospect down for 2 weeks and gain another year of control.

If the new CBA would require that prospect to be held down for 6-8 weeks, then it makes more sense to start the year with Swanson and Albies on the MLB roster.

Further, if that's the case with the new CBA and it's a given they will start 2017 on the MLB roster, it makes little sense to keep them down this year once the super-2 deadline has passed. Provided they are producing in AAA over the next couple months, of course.


If it's 6-8 weeks then you keep Albies and Swanson down for 6-8 weeks. Having them come up and participate in a year where you aren't going to win anyway and giving up that back end year just isn't good business. Now, 12 weeks changes things because then you have to hold them down for 1/2 the season. To me the 2017 season should be most of the near ready young talent at the ML level playing together and developing as a unit throughout the last half of the 2017 season. It also allows you to spot or reinforce previous thoughts regarding holes in the line-up, rotation and pen that need to be addressed before 2018, through the very fertile FA class.

[bravesfanMatt]

so what about Mallex now looking like he is going to stay up all year... basically burning this year worth of control and he is now in a straight platoon situation because Fredi read a book this off season about Righty/Lefty splits..

[UNCBlue012]

so what about Mallex now looking like he is going to stay up all year... basically burning this year worth of control and he is now in a straight platoon situation because Fredi read a book this off season about Righty/Lefty splits..

With Mallex, I let him play every night. Play through his struggles and stay with his hot streaks.

[nsacpi]

We'll find a way to sneak Mallex back down for a couple weeks this year or next. I'm sure there will be a slump here and there.

[bravesfanMatt]

We'll find a way to sneak Mallex back down for a couple weeks this year or next. I'm sure there will be a slump here and there.


I am fine either way.. Burn his year this year.. but at least play him.. I guess right now they will platoon Frenchy to build value.. then, like you said, find a reason to send him down.. if not, I will lose faith in this front office..

[Enscheff]

so what about Mallex now looking like he is going to stay up all year... basically burning this year worth of control and he is now in a straight platoon situation because Fredi read a book this off season about Righty/Lefty splits..

Mallex isn't in the same area code as Albies and Swnason in terms of player value. I wouldn't be too concerned with the service time of a guy that is most likely going to be a 4th OFer and/or non-tender candidate in 3-4 years.

[Enscheff]

If it's 6-8 weeks then you keep Albies and Swanson down for 6-8 weeks. Having them come up and participate in a year where you aren't going to win anyway and giving up that back end year just isn't good business. Now, 12 weeks changes things because then you have to hold them down for 1/2 the season. To me the 2017 season should be most of the near ready young talent at the ML level playing together and developing as a unit throughout the last half of the 2017 season. It also allows you to spot or reinforce previous thoughts regarding holes in the line-up, rotation and pen that need to be addressed before 2018, through the very fertile FA class.

I completely agree, I'm just stringing the "ifs" together.

IF there is pressure to have them on the 2017 opening day roster, and IF the new CBA states a prospect has to be in the minors for 2-3 months to gain the extra year of control, and IF they show they are ready for MLB in a couple months, and IF they plan to sign them to a Longoria-type deal early in the team control time window, then it would be OK to bring them up later this summer.

But yes, ideally they will trade any fraction of 2016/2017 service time required to gain the extra year of control in 2023.

[bravesfanMatt]

Mallex isn't in the same area code as Albies and Swnason in terms of player value. I wouldn't be too concerned with the service time of a guy that is most likely going to be a 4th OFer and/or non-tender candidate in 3-4 years.

I don't care about burning a years worth of control either, but he is still the #11 ranked prospect in your system, and I find it dumb to platoon the guy. get him ABs in AAA or MLB..