Bradley Manning Statement After Verdict

[sturg33]

The decisions that I made in 2010 were made out of a concern for my country and the world that we live in. Since the tragic events of 9/11, our country has been at war. We’ve been at war with an enemy that chooses not to meet us on any traditional battlefield, and due to this fact we’ve had to alter our methods of combating the risks posed to us and our way of life.

I initially agreed with these methods and chose to volunteer to help defend my country. It was not until I was in Iraq and reading secret military reports on a daily basis that I started to question the morality of what we were doing.

It was at this time I realized that (in) our efforts to meet the risk posed to us by the enemy, we have forgotten our humanity.

We consciously elected to devalue human life both in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we engaged those that we perceived were the enemy, we sometimes killed innocent civilians. Whenever we killed innocent civilians, instead of accepting responsibility for our conduct, we elected to hide behind the veil of national security and classified information in order to avoid any public accountability.

In our zeal to kill the enemy, we internally debated the definition of torture. We held individuals at Guantanamo for years without due process. We inexplicably turned a blind eye to torture and executions by the Iraqi government. And we stomached countless other acts in the name of our war on terror.

Patriotism is often the cry extolled when morally questionable acts are advocated by those in power. When these cries of patriotism drown out any logically based dissension, it is usually the American soldier that is given the order to carry out some ill-conceived mission.

Our nation has had similar dark moments for the virtues of democracy — the Trail of Tears, the Dred Scott decision, McCarthyism, and the Japanese-American internment camps — to mention a few. I am confident that many of the actions since 9/11 will one day be viewed in a similar light.

As the late Howard Zinn once said, “There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.”

I understand that my actions violated the law; I regret if my actions hurt anyone or harmed the United States. It was never my intent to hurt anyone. I only wanted to help people. When I chose to disclose classified information, I did so out of a love for my country and a sense of duty to others.

If you deny my request for a pardon, I will serve my time knowing that sometimes you have to pay a heavy price to live in a free society.

I will gladly pay that price if it means we could have a country that is truly conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all women and men are created equal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/text-of-bradley-mannings-letter-to-president-requesting-pardon/2013/08/21/b6ae28b4-0ab5-11e3-89fe-abb4a5067014_story.html

[CK86]

A true hero, such a shame she'll be locked up for a decade minimum.

[goldfly]

and the people who murdered people walked on their crimes

pathetic

a true patriot

[jpx7]

and the people who murdered people walked on their crimes

This, to me, is the most salient complaint in this whole narrative.

[gilesfan]

Whoever wrote that for him wrote a very good piece.

But, Manning sold documents for money. You can cry that it was "to save innocent people," but that appears to be completely fabricated after being caught.

[sturg33]

What did Manning get paid? I hadn't heard/read that anywhere.

[goldfly]

Whoever wrote that for him wrote a very good piece.

But, Manning sold documents for money. You can cry that it was "to save innocent people," but that appears to be completely fabricated after being caught.

outside of some "witness" saying that he sold it to wikileaks

i don't think that was proved in anyway and they were just handed over

unless i missed something

[goldfly]

"Manning: i could've sold to russia or china, and made bank?

[Ex-hacker Adrian] Lamo: why didn't you?

Manning: because it's public data

Lamo: i mean, the cables

Manning: it belongs in the public domain

Manning: information should be free"

[sturg33]

"Manning: i could've sold to russia or china, and made bank?

[Ex-hacker Adrian] Lamo: why didn't you?

Manning: because it's public data

Lamo: i mean, the cables

Manning: it belongs in the public domain

Manning: information should be free"

I believe it was also determined that not a single US life was hurt or put in danger due to the release of the cables.

He simply just exposed what we were doing.

[gilesfan]

He was paid by wikileaks....admitted to it. It was on CNN.

[goldfly]

He was paid by wikileaks....admitted to it. It was on CNN.

prove it to me then

cause all i see is some witness that says he said he was paid

and all of that was stuff from 2011

and don't make me laugh with "it was on cnn"

[gilesfan]

Well, if you can't except CNN as a source, I simply can't do better than that. I wasn't present at the time of payment.

[sturg33]

LOL... cause the mainstream media has been completely honest about this case from day one.

If he admitted it on CNN, wouldn't there be a video of him doing so?

[gilesfan]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/22/justice/bradley-manning-wikileaks



Lol off believe he did it for any other reason. This is the same guy that wants to be called Chelsea.

[sturg33]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/22/justice/bradley-manning-wikileaks



Lol off believe he did it for any other reason. This is the same guy that wants to be called Chelsea.



LOL. Case closed!!

[thethe]

Yeah, even I think that is weak "evidence". Its possible that its true and I believe that all of these "patriots" sell the information but there really is no proof that Manning got money.

[gilesfan]

Yeah, even I think that is weak "evidence". Its possible that its true and I believe that all of these "patriots" sell the information but there really is no proof that Manning got money.

Do you believe he did it on principle? I don't

[thethe]

Do you believe he did it on principle? I don't

I believe part of it is that but that money is always the primary motivator.I jsut don't think there is conclusive evidence out there that he did take money.

[sturg33]

Do you believe he did it on principle? I don't

Why would you not? He was well aware of what was coming his way if caught... and I doubt that he had any reason to think he wouldn't get caught.

But to address the question Goldfly posed earlier, why in the world does Manning get 35 years for telling the world that we will killing innocents and torturing people, but the folks who killed innocents and tortured people got nothing?

[goldfly]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/22/justice/bradley-manning-wikileaks



Lol off believe he did it for any other reason. This is the same guy that wants to be called Chelsea.

so in your little brain, this is him admitting it: ""PFC Manning allegedly responded with, 'I sold information to WikiLeaks,' " according to the defense document.
"


wow

anyway, if he wants to be called that and become a woman good for him.

i am glad you and our gov't is taking the time to be try to slime such a brave patriot

[sturg33]

Bradley Manning is the answer to the question "If Edward Snowden wanted to be considered a civil disobedient patriot, then he should come back and face his charges."

Manning has proven that our government has no place for whistle blowers and anyone who may expose corruption. After years of being tortured, he now faces 35 years in prison. Snowden is wise not to trust our government for a fair trial.

[goldfly]

Do you believe he did it on principle? I don't

did you read the original post?

i guess not

sucks you don't live your life by principles or a code

many of us still do thankfully

[gilesfan]

did you read the original post?

i guess not

sucks you don't like your life by principles or a code

many of us still do thankfully

Yes. Do you believe everything people say after they get caught?

[gilesfan]

Why would you not? He was well aware of what was coming his way if caught... and I doubt that he had any reason to think he wouldn't get caught.

But to address the question Goldfly posed earlier, why in the world does Manning get 35 years for telling the world that we will killing innocents and torturing people, but the folks who killed innocents and tortured people got nothing?

NOt that killing innocent people is right, but it happens in war. If the people in gov't were arrested for killing innocent people during a war, how would our military exist?

What reason is there to believe what this guy is saying as his reasons for releasing information to a web site?

[gilesfan]

Little brain...,.....i forgot Goldfly is the smartest poster on the site.

[goldfly]

Little brain...,.....i forgot Goldfly is the smartest poster on the site.

i am not


but it seems you have a little brain

for someone that admitted something, you are really coming up cold on proving that

[goldfly]

NOt that killing innocent people is right, but it happens in war. If the people in gov't were arrested for killing innocent people during a war, how would our military exist?


i love how casual you say this while sitting at your office or house here in the USA

[gilesfan]

Well I posted that there were sources that heard him say it. If you don't want to believe bc he's your hero, so be it.

How's that occupy movement work out for you, btw?

[jpx7]

This is the same guy that wants to be called Chelsea.

How does this aspect of Manning's life have anything to do with the morality and/or legality of his leaking military information?

[gilesfan]

i love how casual you say this while sitting at your office or house here in the USA


I love how casual you post while doing the same.

[gilesfan]

How does this aspect of Manning's life have anything to do with the morality and/or legality of his leaking military information?

Clearly he has some issues, no?

[jpx7]

If the people in gov't were arrested for killing innocent people during a war, how would our military exist?

In that case, maybe it shouldn't?

[jpx7]

Clearly he has some issues, no?


Elaborate.

[gilesfan]

In that case, maybe it shouldn't?


So we have nothing to protect us?

[gilesfan]

Elaborate.

I need to elaborate on a man dressing up as a women and calling himself Chelsea having issues?

[sturg33]

So we have nothing to protect us?

Out of curiosity, how is our miltary protecting us today, and from who?

[sturg33]

I always hated the "Look, innocent people die in war, that's just how it is" argument - as if that makes everything acceptable.

Here is the issue.

1. WTH are we at war? Is our safety endnager that needs us killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people?
2. Does killing innocent people make us less safe? I absolutely think so. It creates a rallying cry for our enemies.
3. Are our war methods hoorable? Are there things we can be doing to not be killing innocent people? Bradley Manning shows us that we aren't too careful
4. In case #1 was strong enough, WHY THE HELL ARE WE STILL AT WAR??

[jpx7]

I need to elaborate on a man dressing up as a women and calling himself Chelsea having issues?

Yes, actually. Please define these "issues" and how the relate to a given individual's moral composition and legal comportment.

[50PoundHead]

did you read the original post?

i guess not

sucks you don't live your life by principles or a code

many of us still do thankfully

I don't like the war in Afghanistan and I hated the war in Iraq, but my problem with Manning is that when you sign up for the service, you agree to a certain code of conduct. Manning has now faced the consequences for violating that code. I feel the same about Snowden. He signed the confidentiality agreement (or whatever it was called for clearance purposes) and didn't honor that. So I guess I have less of a problem with the information being leaked than with how it was leaked. I guess I don't necessarily believe that the end justifies the means, although I acknowledge there are instances when that is true. I am not comfortable with that applying here and I fully acknowledge that my comfort has little, if anything, to do with whether this was right or wrong. I guess my code centers on personal conduct and remaining consistent to an agreement, which both Manning and Snowden undertook of their own free will. If something changed for them, they should have informed their superiors and been reassigned. I'm sure you'll disagree with me sturg33 and goldfly.

As for the TG angle, I know several TGs (some who have fully transitioned and some who have not) and I am curious to find out what they think about this. I'm relatively certain they will have empathy toward Manning (as I do), but I don't know what this aspect of Manning's life has to do with the actions he took.

[gilesfan]

Out of curiosity, how is our miltary protecting us today, and from who?

You don't think the military protects you? If North Korea wants to send a nuke over, having no military would hurt, no?

[gilesfan]

Yes, actually. Please define these "issues" and how the relate to a given individual's moral composition and legal comportment.

He's a man wanting to be a women. Clearly he has some mental issues.

[jpx7]

Clearly he has some mental issues.

So the trans-gendered all have mental issues, according to you? And this impinges (presumably negatively) on their moral composition and legal comportment?

[sturg33]

You don't think the military protects you? If North Korea wants to send a nuke over, having no military would hurt, no?

Sorry - you didn't answer my question.

[goldfly]

Well I posted that there were sources that heard him say it. If you don't want to believe bc he's your hero, so be it.

How's that occupy movement work out for you, btw?

he should be everyones hero in this country

oddly enough i don't put too much credit in hearsay

and i really don't put credit in it when it is coming from a group of people that tried to put him to death by charging him with ""Aiding the enemy". the enemy in that charge is the american citizen

but hey, some guy said he said it. that is enough proof for you. that is sad, i hope you don't get on any juries anytime soon


uh, is that you thinking you are being clever?

[goldfly]

I love how casual you post while doing the same.

i am guessing you thought was a clever reply

but it really doesn't work when i am not the one saying "hey, innocent people die. it happens. get over it"

pretty much

and Manning to leak cables proving our troops on accident killed innocent civilians

he leaked and showed us, thankfully, that troops were murdering civilians and reporters and covering it up and not being held accountable.

[The Chosen One]

He's a man wanting to be a women. Clearly he has some mental issues.

Do you think the "heroes" that desecrated and pissed on bodies, and the guys behind Abu Ghirab have "mental issues"?

I mean seriously, what's more manly and testosterone pumping than chaining up some men in a prison with pillow cases on their heads and making them strip naked and doing BDSM torture to them? Couldn't get anymore manly than that I suppose.

Who has mental issues in this picture, the guys naked with tarps on their heads, or the "heroes" posing and smiling with the thumbs up as if there's absolutely nothing wrong with this picture?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Abu_Ghraib_53.jpg

[gilesfan]

So the trans-gendered all have metal issues, according to you? And this impinges (presumably negatively) on their moral composition and legal comportment?

Yes

[gilesfan]

he should be everyones hero in this country

oddly enough i don't put too much credit in hearsay

and i really don't put credit in it when it is coming from a group of people that tried to put him to death by charging him with ""Aiding the enemy". the enemy in that charge is the american citizen

but hey, some guy said he said it. that is enough proof for you. that is sad, i hope you don't get on any juries anytime soon


uh, is that you thinking you are being clever?


You act like it's a big surprise that innocent people die in war.

[gilesfan]

Do you think the "heroes" that desecrated and pissed on bodies, and the guys behind Abu Ghirab have "mental issues"?

I mean seriously, what's more manly and testosterone pumping than chaining up some men in a prison with pillow cases on their heads and making them strip naked and doing BDSM torture to them? Couldn't get anymore manly than that I suppose.

Who has mental issues in this picture, the guys naked with tarps on their heads, or the "heroes" posing and smiling with the thumbs up as if there's absolutely nothing wrong with this picture?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Abu_Ghraib_53.jpg

The people that took part in this have mental issues. Yes. I'm not sure what your point is.

[Tapate50]

I always hated the "Look, innocent people die in war, that's just how it is" argument - as if that makes everything acceptable.

Here is the issue.

1. WTH are we at war? Is our safety endnager that needs us killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people?
2. Does killing innocent people make us less safe? I absolutely think so. It creates a rallying cry for our enemies.
3. Are our war methods hoorable? Are there things we can be doing to not be killing innocent people? Bradley Manning shows us that we aren't too careful
4. In case #1 was strong enough, WHY THE HELL ARE WE STILL AT WAR??

Wow. A combat vet.
You must have extensive experience in combat. Tell us all of your experiences.

[sturg33]

huh?

[The Chosen One]

The people that took part in this have mental issues. Yes. I'm not sure what your point is.

Do you think it was just an isolated incident, or do you think it goes on pretty commonly and we just don't hear about it?

[gilesfan]

Do you think it was just an isolated incident, or do you think it goes on pretty commonly and we just don't hear about it?

I would have no reason to know outside of judging based on the soldiers I know in my area.

[weso1]

This, to me, is the most salient complaint in this whole narrative.

Absolutely not. The idea of automatically attaching the word murder to collateral damage due to mistaken identity in war is absurd.

[Tapate50]

huh?

Couldn't connect those pesky dots huh?

Well your post made base assumtions that someone without combat knowlege or experience probably shouldn't make. Like assuming that soldiers are just mowing down as you say "hundreds of thousands of innocents" which is a completely fabricated number made to drive your point. Furthermore, it assumes you see the decisions that they make to avoid\engage a scenario with innocents involved. You probably have no idea what happens on the ground or how our troops operate, and I for one think that is a bad road to go down. If you don't have that experience, I don't think you have the luxury of sitting on a high perch with no mud on your boots and say things about our military that make them out to be war criminals. I will put good money on the fact if you were faced with decisions in combat that those young men and women are, you would either choose the same as they have, or be killed. Everything is easy to criticize behind a computer.

We are at war with a people or movement that does not fight a traditional war. There is a group of people that want Americans dead, for being...American. They don't have uniforms, or a cohesive fighting force, or want to engage soldiers. They want US Citizens to suffer. They hate free citizens of this country because we were born here and they abhor us. You, me, children, economies, women, old people etc... They attack citizens not armies, so I would say that is something worth deploying soliders to quell. We aren't over there because we like killing radicals.

If this is post is way offbase and you have entensive military experience, then I have misjudged you and I apologize. It does not seem that way from your posts. Generalities about our military are not what I commend online or in person. Is war or combat strategy perfect? No. But I can live with that as long as the men and women serving our country say that they gave it their best shot. That is all we could ever ask.

[sturg33]

Couldn't connect those pesky dots huh?

Well your post made base assumtions that someone without combat knowlege or experience probably shouldn't make. Like assuming that soldiers are just mowing down as you say "hundreds of thousands of innocents" which is a completely fabricated number made to drive your point. Furthermore, it assumes you see the decisions that they make to avoid\engage a scenario with innocents involved. You probably have no idea what happens on the ground or how our troops operate, and I for one think that is a bad road to go down. If you don't have that experience, I don't think you have the luxury of sitting on a high perch with no mud on your boots and say things about our military that make them out to be war criminals. I will put good money on the fact if you were faced with decisions in combat that those young men and women are, you would either choose the same as they have, or be killed. Everything is easy to criticize behind a computer.

We are at war with a people or movement that does not fight a traditional war. There is a group of people that want Americans dead, for being...American. They don't have uniforms, or a cohesive fighting force, or want to engage soldiers. They want US Citizens to suffer. They hate free citizens of this country because we were born here and they abhor us. You, me, children, economies, women, old people etc... They attack citizens not armies, so I would say that is something worth deploying soliders to quell. We aren't over there because we like killing radicals.

If this is post is way offbase and you have entensive military experience, then I have misjudged you and I apologize. It does not seem that way from your posts. Generalities about our military are not what I commend online or in person. Is war or combat strategy perfect? No. But I can live with that as long as the men and women serving our country say that they gave it their best shot. That is all we could ever ask.


Where to begin...

The hundreds of thousands of civilians number is a cited number from our own government. You can ignore if you wish. It is probably understated.

The post you quoted was me asking why we are at war? That has nothing to do with the men actually fighting the war, but the "leaders" who are so quick to put them in harms way. I'm still wondering, why are we at war?

There are videos online of our soldiers laughing and singing as they blow up people from a helicopter. There were soldiers peeing on dead corpses. And then of course, the Manning cables that were released. Shame on Mr. Manning for exposing that corruption. To act like every soldier is some saint and hero just because they are soldiers is preposterous. I'm not painting with a broad brush here.

My biggest concern with our military is that they are dying for no reason. Over 9,000 killed in a senseless war. Over 50,000 injured. And on average, one vet commits suicide every day. Why? Because they literally can't live with what they have seen or done. It's been written about countless times. Some people just don't have the heart to live what our leaders are having our troops do. More soldiers commited suicide last year than died in Afghanistan. I got news for you, that's not normal!

I have a friend in the marines who told me they were instructed to blow up a building that had a known terrorist in it. He also said they could see other people in the building playing cards. But they blew the building up anyway - because that is what they were told. That didn't sit too well with him, but he assumes what he did was right.

Meanwhile, we can never have any peace as long as fools carry on with the "they hate us because we're american" nonsense. This is one of the dumbest, most illogical assumptions I've ever heard. You want to know why they hate us? Because we bomb the **** out of them. Because we set up 900 military bases on their land. Because we fight them because of oil. Because we overthrow their democratically elected governments so that we can install our puppets. Because we arm the terrorists, so that they can cause trouble, so that we can intervene. Because we put life crippling sanctions on their country so that a half a million kids can starve to death, and then have our secretary of state go on 60 minutes and say "it's worth it."

If you sincerely believe "they hate us because we're American", then why would you promote fighting them? It's unwinnable. Why keep fighting?

[sturg33]

Absolutely not. The idea of automatically attaching the word murder to collateral damage due to mistaken identity in war is absurd.

I'm guessing you never read the cables

[Runnin]

He's a man wanting to be a women. Clearly he has some mental issues.
I tend to agree with this, although I also think whistle blowers deserve much better legal protection when they are exposing govt agencies acting outside the law.

You have to admit it's an odd time for a sex change. It certainly diminishes his testimony in the public eye, whether it should or not.

Will the govt foot the bill for his operation? If so, maybe he's getting some poetic justice, however small.

[thethe]

Where to begin...

The hundreds of thousands of civilians number is a cited number from our own government. You can ignore if you wish. It is probably understated.

The post you quoted was me asking why we are at war? That has nothing to do with the men actually fighting the war, but the "leaders" who are so quick to put them in harms way. I'm still wondering, why are we at war?

There are videos online of our soldiers laughing and singing as they blow up people from a helicopter. There were soldiers peeing on dead corpses. And then of course, the Manning cables that were released. Shame on Mr. Manning for exposing that corruption. To act like every soldier is some saint and hero just because they are soldiers is preposterous. I'm not painting with a broad brush here.

My biggest concern with our military is that they are dying for no reason. Over 9,000 killed in a senseless war. Over 50,000 injured. And on average, one vet commits suicide every day. Why? Because they literally can't live with what they have seen or done. It's been written about countless times. Some people just don't have the heart to live what our leaders are having our troops do. More soldiers commited suicide last year than died in Afghanistan. I got news for you, that's not normal!

I have a friend in the marines who told me they were instructed to blow up a building that had a known terrorist in it. He also said they could see other people in the building playing cards. But they blew the building up anyway - because that is what they were told. That didn't sit too well with him, but he assumes what he did was right.

Meanwhile, we can never have any peace as long as fools carry on with the "they hate us because we're american" nonsense. This is one of the dumbest, most illogical assumptions I've ever heard. You want to know why they hate us? Because we bomb the **** out of them. Because we set up 900 military bases on their land. Because we fight them because of oil. Because we overthrow their democratically elected governments so that we can install our puppets. Because we arm the terrorists, so that they can cause trouble, so that we can intervene. Because we put life crippling sanctions on their country so that a half a million kids can starve to death, and then have our secretary of state go on 60 minutes and say "it's worth it."

If you sincerely believe "they hate us because we're American", then why would you promote fighting them? It's unwinnable. Why keep fighting?

They have hated us for much longer than that. If it wasn't the reasons you posted above they would find others to paint us as the devil.

[sturg33]

I tend to agree with this, although I also think whistle blowers deserve much better legal protection when they are exposing govt agencies acting outside the law.

You have to admit it's an odd time for a sex change. It certainly diminishes his testimony in the public eye, whether it should or not.

Will the govt foot the bill for his operation? If so, maybe he's getting some poetic justice, however small.

He also got pretty messed up in torture prison. I would imagine it has left a mark

[sturg33]

They have hated us for much longer than that. If it wasn't the reasons you posted above they would find others to paint us as the devil.

Can you expand on this?

When did they start hating us? How do you know that? How many Americans have they killed? How many attacks have the done on us?

[thethe]

Can you expand on this?

When did they start hating us? How do you know that? How many Americans have they killed? How many attacks have the done on us?

Oh man...I can't believe you can continue to be this naive about this. You honestly believe that this is a relative new phenomena that Radical Muslims and the Persians before hate western Europeans?

They can't get to America easily because of natural borders. But that changes quickly with technology. This is where I believe you have the issue of understanding the real world. Really bright guy but illogical.

[CK86]

They don't hate us because we're free or because we're Americans, they hate us because we bomb the hell out of them with no consequences.

We're their best recruiter because we don't change. We use drones in places we're not even at war with to get maybe one bad guy but kill 4 or 5 innocent people. Those families lose loved ones and guess what? They're bitter and want revenge. It's a never ending war that we helped create. The military contractors love that.

This notion of they hate us because we're free is hysterical because it ignores ANY wrongdoings our may have committed. We would be so much better off if we just stayed away and stopped killing innocent people regardless of intention.

You're going to get hated if you live above the law and suffer no consequences for your actions.

"They hate us because we're free", lol. Bush/ Cheney propaganda still lives on!

[thethe]

Yup...if we leave them alone the will go away. Its not like there is an ideological conflict that is happening over there.

Again, why are the Africans at war now with the radical Muslims. They aren't bombing them. I thought the these people only hated the countries that attack them.

Something doesn't make sense.

[goldfly]

Absolutely not. The idea of automatically attaching the word murder to collateral damage due to mistaken identity in war is absurd.

so you didn't watch some of the cables that manning leaked

cool

[gilesfan]

They don't hate us because we're free or because we're Americans, they hate us because we bomb the hell out of them with no consequences.

We're their best recruiter because we don't change. We use drones in places we're not even at war with to get maybe one bad guy but kill 4 or 5 innocent people. Those families lose loved ones and guess what? They're bitter and want revenge. It's a never ending war that we helped create. The military contractors love that.

This notion of they hate us because we're free is hysterical because it ignores ANY wrongdoings our may have committed. We would be so much better off if we just stayed away and stopped killing innocent people regardless of intention.

You're going to get hated if you live above the law and suffer no consequences for your actions.

"They hate us because we're free", lol. Bush/ Cheney propaganda still lives on!

Hyperbole, FTW!

How often did we bomb the hell out of them before 9/11, btw?

[goldfly]

You act like it's a big surprise that innocent people die in war.

:sigh

guess this is what i get for talking to someone who didn't follow the trial or details of it

and now obviously didn't watch or read what he leaked

[CK86]

Which country or area specifically are you referencing when you say Africans are at war with Muslims?

[sturg33]

Hyperbole, FTW!

How often did we bomb the hell out of them before 9/11, btw?

Is this a serious question?

[thethe]

Which country or area specifically are you referencing when you say Africans are at war with Muslims?

Nigeria specifically. This was just today and this type of conflict has been going on for years now:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/21/us-nigeria-bokoharam-idUSBRE97K10N20130821

[sturg33]

Oh man...I can't believe you can continue to be this naive about this. You honestly believe that this is a relative new phenomena that Radical Muslims and the Persians before hate western Europeans?

They can't get to America easily because of natural borders. But that changes quickly with technology. This is where I believe you have the issue of understanding the real world. Really bright guy but illogical.

Sorry - I was asking you specific questions and it doesn't look like you answered any of them?

[thethe]

Sorry - I was asking you specific questions and it doesn't look like you answered any of them?

Are you kidding me? History is not always well documented but wars between the middle eastern people and western European cultures have been going on for centuries. I can't believe you take this angle that Muslims just started hating Americans because we bomb them. What a joke.

[jpx7]

Yes

So you're a bigot.

[sturg33]

Are you kidding me? History is not always well documented but wars between the middle eastern people and western European cultures have been going on for centuries. I can't believe you take this angle that Muslims just started hating Americans because we bomb them. What a joke.

I see. So you don't have any specifics?

I'm not "taking an angle". You said something as a fact and I am unaware of it so please show me what youre talking about.

[jpx7]

Absolutely not. The idea of automatically attaching the word murder to collateral damage due to mistaken identity in war is absurd.

Well then we disagree. And since this issue – defining innocent civilians as "collateral damage" – is hardly one where absolutes are appropriate, I find your your usage of the term "absolutely" to be what's really absurd here; it might be your opinion that "attaching the word murder to collateral damage due to mistaken identity in war is absurd," but it's hardly "absolute" fact.

Moreover: even if "murder" isn't the appropriate term, surely disastrous and mortal mistakes deserve some prosecution and punishment, even if it's not commensurate with punishment for true "murder."

[gilesfan]

So you're a bigot.

Is Gender Identity disorder a mental issue?

[thethe]

I see. So you don't have any specifics?

I'm not "taking an angle". You said something as a fact and I am unaware of it so please show me what youre talking about.

You are also stating something as a fact without really knowing someones intentions. If the radicals hate us because we bomb them then why are they killing thousands of people in Africa (a question you ALWAYS dodge)?

So you don't believe that historical wars had anything to do with animosity towards western Europeans? That is really the stance you are taking?

[Julio3000]

Originally Posted by goldfly
and the people who murdered people walked on their crimes


This, to me, is the most salient complaint in this whole narrative.

^^^^^^^^^^^

This. I'd only add "and ordered torture."

[sturg33]

You are also stating something as a fact without really knowing someones intentions. If the radicals hate us because we bomb them then why are they killing thousands of people in Africa (a question you ALWAYS dodge)?

So you don't believe that historical wars had anything to do with animosity towards western Europeans? That is really the stance you are taking?

I just asked you for some specifics. You gave me zero.

With regards to Africa, can you show me where they have killed thousands? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't know about it and have never cared enough to look into it. I'm out of town on business this weekend, but I'll take a look into the Muslim/African conflict once you show me specifics.

[jpx7]

Is Gender Identity disorder a mental issue?

Not as of the DSM-V.

[thethe]

I just asked you for some specifics. You gave me zero.

With regards to Africa, can you show me where they have killed thousands? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't know about it and have never cared enough to look into it. I'm out of town on business this weekend, but I'll take a look into the Muslim/African conflict once you show me specifics.

I have posted many articles in the past regarding the Boko Harim. There will never be a reported figure like there is with US conflics. There are plenty of articles out there that show specific incidents. You can do the math but over the past 20-30 years there has been terrorism in Africa whether or not you want to admit it considering it goes against your belief they hate us because we bomb them.

[sturg33]

Well, like I said... if you want to give me some sort of documented starting point. I'll look into it and respond.

I'm still waiting on those specifics from the previous page, by the way.

[sturg33]

For Weso and others... this is just the first one that popped up. There are many more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbqmr5rtdOs&feature=player_embedded#t=0

[goldfly]

I forget there are people in this country that think people in the Middle East woke up one day for no real reason at all and thought "they have freedom. I hate them now".

These same people think the USA can do no wrong and has never done anything wrong

[thethe]

I forget there are people in this country that think people in the Middle East woke up one day for no real reason at all and thought "they have freedom. I hate them now".

These same people think the USA can do no wrong and has never done anything wrong

I for one do not believe the US is innocent on all accounts. But I also believe its naive to think that these people started hating America because we bomb them. That is just ignoring well over a thousand years of history.

[sturg33]

I for one do not believe the US is innocent on all accounts. But I also believe its naive to think that these people started hating America because we bomb them. That is just ignoring well over a thousand years of history.

LOL.

"It's naive to think they hate us because we bomb them." - thethe

"It's naive to think they hate us because we're American." - sturg

Clearly, I'm the naive one

[goldfly]

I for one do not believe the US is innocent on all accounts. But I also believe its naive to think that these people started hating America because we bomb them. That is just ignoring well over a thousand years of history.

who doesn't like to be bombed and have loved ones killed?

and

America isn't even close to 1000 years old, so i am not sure what that has to do with anything

but


i am interested in your thoughts. do you have a newsletter?

[thethe]

Re: Sturg:

That was not what I said.

[thethe]

America isn't even close to 1000 years old

so i am interested in your thoughts. do you have a newsletter?

Amazing that you guys continue to believe that there isn't an underlying ideological war going on that has been going on for much longer than Americas existence.

[goldfly]

Amazing that you guys continue to believe that there isn't an underlying ideological war going on that has been going on for much longer than Americas existence.

let me guess

you don't think they should have hated the Crusades either

right?

[thethe]

let me guess

you don't think they should have hated the Crusades either

right?

No, I think that was one of the the major reasons why this animosity existed. Fighting a war in the name of a diety is foolish and I believe was the tipping point of no reconciliation between the two parties.

[jpx7]

Fighting a war in the name of a diety is foolish.

I very much agree with this, at least.

[weso1]

For Weso and others... this is just the first one that popped up. There are many more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbqmr5rtdOs&feature=player_embedded#t=0

That video doesn't contradict what I posted. Mistakes are made in war and unfortunately the consequence is often tragic. As long as the soldier follows the rules of engagement then he can't be indicted like you all feel he should. How could anyone think that is a good idea?

[gilesfan]

I forget there are people in this country that think people in the Middle East woke up one day for no real reason at all and thought "they have freedom. I hate them now".

These same people think the USA can do no wrong and has never done anything wrong

Why do the radicals in the Middle East terrorize other countries besides USA that have not bombed them or participated in any bombings/war?

Let's see how you skirt that question.

[sturg33]

Why do the radicals in the Middle East terrorize other countries besides USA that have not bombed them or participated in any bombings/war?

Let's see how you skirt that question.

Which countries in particular? Because you would be very surprised.

[gilesfan]

Well, you can go down the list and answer:

Philippines
Kenya
Tanzania
Djerba
Limburg bombing
Bali
Morrocco
Turkey
Spain
Saudi
England
Pakistan (bc of the publication of Muhammed cartoons)
Khobar massacre where victims were asked religion and any non muslim had throat slashed

[The Chosen One]

I would have no reason to know outside of judging based on the soldiers I know in my area.

Probably more common than you think...

I live in a town surrounded by two bases, Hunter AAF and Ft Stewart, and these guys seem pretty normal when you talk to them. They get drunk, they start acting like a bunch of idiots, telling all the horror stories from Iraq and Afghanistan (some borderlining Abu Ghraib). I've heard some pretty awful stuff about how some of the guys bragged about the way they treated some of the Iraqi's after they took over Saddam's Palace.

I would venture to say the nice guys in your area too are different when they're over there.

But like you always say, that's just a casualty of war.

[The Chosen One]

Well, you can go down the list and answer:

Philippines
Kenya
Tanzania
Djerba
Limburg bombing
Bali
Morrocco
Turkey
Spain
Saudi
England
Pakistan (bc of the publication of Muhammed cartoons)
Khobar massacre where victims were asked religion and any non muslim had throat slashed

I can tell you off hand the Phillipines, Abu Sayaf is bombing there because the provinces are split. All the Muslims are in the South (Mindanao) and they're the worst off. The Catholics dominate that country's political system, and they're all up north in the big cities like Manila, and they don't do anything legislatively to help the Muslims in the South. That's kind of why the bombings take place and Al Qaeda has found a breeding ground there.

The Muslims down in the Southern Isles, associate the Northern Catholics/Christians as Westerners similar to America which after Al Al Qaeda goes down there to train Abu Sayaf, they're all on the same page.

And a lot of the other countries you name are simlar to Phillippines. Poverty and Religion being used together to make a statement.

For a country like England, it's simply because they associate England/GBR with USA since we're BFF.

[gilesfan]

Probably more common than you think...

I live in a town surrounded by two bases, Hunter AAF and Ft Stewart, and these guys seem pretty normal when you talk to them. They get drunk, they start acting like a bunch of idiots, telling all the horror stories from Iraq and Afghanistan (some borderlining Abu Ghraib). I've heard some pretty awful stuff about how some of the guys bragged about the way they treated some of the Iraqi's after they took over Saddam's Palace.

I would venture to say the nice guys in your area too are different when they're over there.

But like you always say, that's just a casualty of war.

I live 15 minutes from the largest navy base in the world. Also probably half of the countries Navy Seals (split between SD and Va Beach) live in the area and I am friends with several of them. I know a guy that spent 6 months living in Sadaams palace.

[gilesfan]

I can tell you off hand the Phillipines, Abu Sayaf is bombing there because the provinces are split. All the Muslims are in the South (Mindanao) and they're the worst off. The Catholics dominate that country's political system, and they're all up north in the big cities like Manila, and they don't do anything legislatively to help the Muslims in the South. That's kind of why the bombings take place and Al Qaeda has found a breeding ground there.

The Muslims down in the Southern Isles, associate the Northern Catholics/Christians as Westerners similar to America which after Al Al Qaeda goes down there to train Abu Sayaf, they're all on the same page.

And a lot of the other countries you name are simlar to Phillippines. Poverty and Religion being used together to make a statement.

For a country like England, it's simply because they associate England/GBR with USA since we're BFF.

But, the muslims only do it to USA because of bombs, right?

The London attack was the day after they were awarded the summer olympics. That likely had somehting to do with it.

[The Chosen One]

I live 15 minutes from the largest navy base in the world. Also probably half of the countries Navy Seals (split between SD and Va Beach) live in the area and I am friends with several of them. I know a guy that spent 6 months living in Sadaams palace.

I'd imagine Navy Seals are more disciplined.

Speaking of which, do you think the Navy Seal that had a sex and identity change a while ago has mental issues?

[The Chosen One]

But, the muslims only do it to USA because of bombs, right?

The London attack was the day after they were awarded the summer olympics. That likely had somehting to do with it.

Not only because of bombs, but if you look at a lot of their recruiting stuff, a lot of it has to do with the fact the US has bombed so many arab countries and shoved it under the rug for years.

Also our association with Israel doesn't help either.

THese radical extremists hate western and modern civilization. Guess who are the leaders of said civilization?

[thethe]

But, the muslims only do it to USA because of bombs, right?

The London attack was the day after they were awarded the summer olympics. That likely had somehting to do with it.

Its a joke that some people actually think that. Sure, bombing these places aren't helping our diplomatic ties but there was no repairing the damage thats been done for over a thousand years.

[gilesfan]

Speaking of which, do you think the Navy Seal that had a sex and identity change a while ago has mental issues?

Yes.

[thethe]

Not only because of bombs, but if you look at a lot of their recruiting stuff, a lot of it has to do with the fact the US has bombed so many arab countries and shoved it under the rug for years.

Also our association with Israel doesn't help either.

THese radical extremists hate western and modern civilization. Guess who are the leaders of said civilization?

That is the issue and has been the central issue for a long long time.

[goldfly]

Why do the radicals in the Middle East terrorize other countries besides USA that have not bombed them or participated in any bombings/war?

Let's see how you skirt that question.

define "not participated"

cause every single one of that list you posted is/was allies

and i would argue that they participated in some capacity

actions have consequences. my parents taught me that many moons ago and they didn't have to teach me that going and blowing up a country and killing family and friends gets people pissed off and want to do the same back

[goldfly]

there was no repairing the damage thats been done

http://www.panicfreaks.org/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[goldfly]

That is the issue and has been the central issue for a long long time.

no

it hasn't

unless you think a long long time is like 60 years

[weso1]

Well then we disagree. And since this is issue – defining innocent civilians as "collateral damage" – is hardly one where absolutes are appropriate, I find your your usage of the term "absolutely" to be what's really absurd here; it might be your opinion that "attaching the word murder to collateral damage due to mistaken identity in war is absurd," but it's hardly "absolute" fact.

Moreover: even if "murder" isn't the appropriate term, surely disastrous and mortal mistakes deserve some prosecution and punishment, even if it's not commensurate with punishment for true "murder."

I wasn't stating my opinion was absolute. I was stating the idea that the statement you quoted was the most salient point was absolutely not a salient point. Mainly because the point made assumes murder.

And stating that all collateral damage and mistakes in war that lead to tragedy should be prosecuted might be one of the silliest things I've read on this board, no matter how well it's written.

[thethe]

no

it hasn't

unless you think a long long time is like 60 years

Then we will always disagree. Radical Muslims hating western culture is not new.

The group in Nigeria "Boko Haram" literally translates to Western culture is sinful. Are you kidding me that they haven't hated us for a long time.

[jpx7]

And stating that all collateral damage and mistakes in war that lead to tragedy should be prosecuted might be one of the silliest things I've read on this board, no matter how well it's written.

Well I guess it's a real banner day for you, then.

Seems like you're only into accountability domestically.

[sturg33]

all this collateral damage talk in war... truthfully,

we're not even at war. I don't remember any congress declaring war on anyone, do you?

[goldfly]

And stating that all collateral damage and mistakes in war that lead to tragedy should be prosecuted might be one of the silliest things I've read on this board, no matter how well it's written.

http://www.panicfreaks.org/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[goldfly]

Then we will always disagree. Radical Muslims hating western culture is not new.

The group in Nigeria "Boko Haram" literally translates to Western culture is sinful. Are you kidding me that they haven't hated us for a long time.

long time is about as vague as you can get

[thethe]

long time is about as vague as you can get

Being vague is your specialty isn't it?

IF you honestly believe that they have hated us for just 60 years then there is nothing left to discuss.

[goldfly]

Being vague is your specialty isn't it?

IF you honestly believe that they have hated us for just 60 years then there is nothing left to discuss.

you did read what you you bolded and replied to that had me reply to you, right?

"THese radical extremists hate western and modern civilization."

[sturg33]

thethe, when and why did they start hating USA

[jpx7]

they [...] us [...] nothing left to discuss.

This is a big part of the problem, as well.

[thethe]

thethe, when and why did they start hating USA

The USA is an extension of Western European culture. It would be impossible to give a date of when they started hating us and you know it. The easy date would be during the many crusades. I believe it was even before that but how about that as a starting point?

[thethe]

This is a big part of the problem, as well.

Agreed.

[gilesfan]

define "not participated"

cause every single one of that list you posted is/was allies

and i would argue that they participated in some capacity

actions have consequences. my parents taught me that many moons ago and they didn't have to teach me that going and blowing up a country and killing family and friends gets people pissed off and want to do the same back

You should look at the list again then.

[goldfly]

"BREAKING: Jury sentences U.S. soldier Robert Bales to life in prison without the possibility of parole for murder of 16 Afghan civilians"


obviously should have never been charged. just some collateral damage obviously

[goldfly]

You should look at the list again then.

we are talking this one, right?

Philippines
Kenya
Tanzania
Djerba
Limburg bombing
Bali
Morrocco
Turkey
Spain
Saudi
England
Pakistan (bc of the publication of Muhammed cartoons)
Khobar massacre where victims were asked religion and any non muslim had throat slashed

[weso1]

"BREAKING: Jury sentences U.S. soldier Robert Bales to life in prison without the possibility of parole for murder of 16 Afghan civilians"


obviously should have never been charged. just some collateral damage obviously

:facepalm:

[gilesfan]

we are talking this one, right?

Philippines
Kenya
Tanzania
Djerba
Limburg bombing
Bali
Morrocco
Turkey
Spain
Saudi
England
Pakistan (bc of the publication of Muhammed cartoons)
Khobar massacre where victims were asked religion and any non muslim had throat slashed

Yeah, you are claiming USA is allies with all these countries.

[gilesfan]

"BREAKING: Jury sentences U.S. soldier Robert Bales to life in prison without the possibility of parole for murder of 16 Afghan civilians"


obviously should have never been charged. just some collateral damage obviously

Different situations. There is a reason he was charged.

[thethe]

If the US didn't care about the death of civilians then why was that person charged at all? They way you guys make it seem the US Government should treat him as a hero.

[Metaphysicist]

Bradley Manning is the answer to the question "If Edward Snowden wanted to be considered a civil disobedient patriot, then he should come back and face his charges."

Manning has proven that our government has no place for whistle blowers and anyone who may expose corruption. After years of being tortured, he now faces 35 years in prison. Snowden is wise not to trust our government for a fair trial.

Why would Snowden be in a military court?

[goldfly]

Yeah, you are claiming USA is allies with all these countries.

do know who the USA is allies with?

cause everyone on that list is one in some way or another except maybe Djerba.

i mean, you did list a massacre that isn't a country and you listed a city that isn't a country though

[goldfly]

:facepalm:

oh, he murdered people

like, what manning leaked and what i was talking about

not the bull**** term of "collateral damage"

glad we finally got to the same page now

[gilesfan]

do know who the USA is allies with?

cause everyone on that list is one in some way or another except maybe Djerba.

i mean, you did list a massacre that isn't a country and you listed a city that isn't a country though

You know what I was talking about but, you can't admit that you are wrong and US is not allies.

How about bombing a country bc of cartoons...... Yeah, great point there.

[gilesfan]

oh, he murdered people

like, what manning leaked and what i was talking about

not the bull**** term of "collateral damage"

glad we finally got to the same page now

Not even close to what Manning leaked. That dude rolled up in a village and shot 16 random people. Manning leaked a video tape of a helicopter shooting up a suspected target.

[weso1]

oh, he murdered people

like, what manning leaked and what i was talking about

not the bull**** term of "collateral damage"

glad we finally got to the same page now

You have to be trolling here if you don't see the difference between the 2 situations. I mean it's impossible to have a debate with someone who can't see the difference.

[thethe]

You know what I was talking about but, you can't admit that you are wrong and US is not allies.

How about bombing a country bc of cartoons...... Yeah, great point there.

They will never admit it GF. Acknowledging that the radical Muslims attack others who don't bomb them completely destroys their whole stance. But to the rest of the world its obvious.

[goldfly]

You have to be trolling here if you don't see the difference between the 2 situations. I mean it's impossible to have a debate with someone who can't see the difference.

i am not sure what you position you fabricated in your mind on where i stand

cause these type of cases is exactly what i was talking about and yall got all up in arms about "i can't believe you would put soldiers on trial"

[goldfly]

You know what I was talking about but, you can't admit that you are wrong and US is not allies.

How about bombing a country bc of cartoons...... Yeah, great point there.

wrong about what? know who and what countries are allies? i do know that

no country has bombed a country over cartoons. not sure what your great point is

[goldfly]

They will never admit it GF. Acknowledging that the radical Muslims attack others who don't bomb them completely destroys their whole stance. But to the rest of the world its obvious.

what stance is that?

explain what my stance is to me then

[thethe]

what stance is that?

explain what my stance is to me then

I think you have made your stance clear. I will let your words dictate that and not get into this game that you try and play all the time.

[goldfly]

Not even close to what Manning leaked. That dude rolled up in a village and shot 16 random people. Manning leaked a video tape of a helicopter shooting up a suspected target.

you keep proving you didn't actually read or watch the stuff he leaked

[weso1]

i am not sure what you position you fabricated in your mind on where i stand

cause these type of cases is exactly what i was talking about and yall got all up in arms about "i can't believe you would put soldiers on trial"

lol... speaking of fabricating positions in your own mind... When did I say soldiers shouldn't be put on trial? Of course they should. But only when appropriate. My argument is that they shouldn't be put on trial if they followed the rules of engagement when a mistake was made. And certainly not in cases of collateral damage. You have to be a fool to compare a soldier disobeying his command, breaking the rules of engagement and shooting up knowingly unarmed citizens to the video sturg posted.

[goldfly]

I think you have made your stance clear. I will let your words dictate that and not get into this game that you try and play all the time.

i know what my stance is

i was wanting to, in your words, to explain what you think my stance is

but that is about par for the course from here. "you're playing games" blah blah blah

[goldfly]

You have to be a fool to compare a soldier disobeying his command

just cause they have a command to do something means they should do it

[gilesfan]

Then show us what Manning leaked since you are the only one that claims to have watched it.

Kidnappers asked the hostages if they were Christian or Muslim, letting the Muslims go, and slitting the throats of non-Muslims.[2]
A previously unheard-of militant group calling itself "The Jerusalem Squadron" -- a local Saudi Arabia-based faction of al-Qaeda -- claimed responsibility and said it was attacking "Zionists and Crusaders" who are in Saudi Arabia to "steal our oil and resources." An audio tape was released in which Abdulaziz al-Muqrin, thought to be one of al-Qaeda's leaders in Saudi Arabia, took responsibility.[3] According to the then Saudi Ambassador in Washington, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the goal of the terrorists was to shake Saudi Arabia's stability and economy.[4]

After a 25-hour siege, 41 hostages were freed, 25 were injured and 22 were killed, among them 19 foreigners from nine countries. The nationalities of those killed included eight people from India, three from the Philippines, two from Sri Lanka, one each from Sweden, Italy, England, the United States, South Africa and Egypt.

[gilesfan]

The 2008 Danish embassy bombing was an attack on the Danish embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan on 2 June 2008. The suspected suicide car bombing in the parking lot of the embassy took place at around 12:10 pm (UTC+5), killing at least five and wounding many more. The Danish national security intelligence agency PET concluded that al-Qaeda was behind the attack.[2] Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attack on 5 June 2008. The attack was confirmed to be an answer to the reprinting of Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten's Muhammed cartoons in February 2006

[gilesfan]

just cause they have a command to do something means they should do it


Yes. If you enlist

[weso1]

just cause they have a command to do something means they should do it

I assume you mean "doesn't mean"... I agree with that. I believe the rules of engagement trump orders from command.

[thethe]

The 2008 Danish embassy bombing was an attack on the Danish embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan on 2 June 2008. The suspected suicide car bombing in the parking lot of the embassy took place at around 12:10 pm (UTC+5), killing at least five and wounding many more. The Danish national security intelligence agency PET concluded that al-Qaeda was behind the attack.[2] Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attack on 5 June 2008. The attack was confirmed to be an answer to the reprinting of Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten's Muhammed cartoons in February 2006

Haha...can't wait to see this response

[gilesfan]

Haha...can't wait to see this response

I mean, we are talking about stable people here. They only bomb when others bomb them...........

syke

[thethe]

I mean, we are talking about stable people here. They only bomb when others bomb them...........

syke

It also isn't a cultural war but one of the largest terrorist organizations name translates to western culture is sinfull....

Wait....let's try to figure out another reason why they hate us

[goldfly]

The 2008 Danish embassy bombing was an attack on the Danish embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan on 2 June 2008. The suspected suicide car bombing in the parking lot of the embassy took place at around 12:10 pm (UTC+5), killing at least five and wounding many more. The Danish national security intelligence agency PET concluded that al-Qaeda was behind the attack.[2] Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attack on 5 June 2008. The attack was confirmed to be an answer to the reprinting of Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten's Muhammed cartoons in February 2006

so Pakistan bombed an embassy in Pakistan?

but i guess we could evolve the discussion into groups instead of countries bombing countries

[thethe]

Hysterical.

[goldfly]

wrong about what? know who and what countries are allies? i do know that

no country has bombed a country over cartoons. not sure what your great point is

i guess you are saying they are a country

cause my statement is pretty clear there

[zitothebrave]

They will never admit it GF. Acknowledging that the radical Muslims attack others who don't bomb them completely destroys their whole stance. But to the rest of the world its obvious.

Your simplistic world view is just that, simplistic. Radical Muslims will carry out their radical plans. Just like radical christians, racists, nationalists, etc. will. The thing that we do by invading them or raping their natural resources is give these nutjobs fuel for the fire. Their recruiting wouldn't go so smooth without something to point at. I'd be willing to bet that US involvement in the ME is more of a motivation for most of the terrorist footsoldiers than being "western"

If we left that area eventually the psychos will kill themselves off and more moderate folks would move in. US needs to develop a cheap alternative to gas so we can tell the ME to frak off and kill each other we wouldn't care.

[thethe]

Your simplistic world view is just that, simplistic. Radical Muslims will carry out their radical plans. Just like radical christians, racists, nationalists, etc. will. The thing that we do by invading them or raping their natural resources is give these nutjobs fuel for the fire. Their recruiting wouldn't go so smooth without something to point at. I'd be willing to bet that US involvement in the ME is more of a motivation for most of the terrorist footsoldiers than being "western"

If we left that area eventually the psychos will kill themselves off and more moderate folks would move in. US needs to develop a cheap alternative to gas so we can tell the ME to frak off and kill each other we wouldn't care.

Its a valid theory. Or, our lack of involvement could make it easier for their groups to operate freely and enlist new radicals. The children are brainwashed at an early age through the use of cartoons to hate Western Culture. But, that is just a theory like yours.

[zitothebrave]

Eventually people grow out of that? You watch old school Looney Toons? **** was racist as hell, eventually people start thinking for themselves and change happens. It will happen over there but right now we're actually giving them good propaganda.

[thethe]

Eventually people grow out of that? You watch old school Looney Toons? **** was racist as hell, eventually people start thinking for themselves and change happens. It will happen over there but right now we're actually giving them good propaganda.

Please don't compare looney Toons to the crap they are showing in these countries. Have you ever watched those cartoons? I suggest you youtube them.

[zitothebrave]

Yeah cause that's never happened in the history of the United States

http://www.teacheroz.com/images/homes.gif

[thethe]

So naive. You can actually put the cartoons side by side and say they are equal? You just aren't being honest then.

[zitothebrave]

You don't think the US is fallen or has fallen under extreme propaganda and I'm naive?

http://ipfactor.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/nazi-donald-duck-reading-mein-kampf.jpg

[goldfly]

it must suck to live your life in fear over a very small % of people in the globe

i mean, seriously


You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack

– You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack

— You are 11,000 times more likely to die in an airplane accident than from a terrorist plot involving an airplane

— You are 1048 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack

–You are 404 times more likely to die in a fall than from a terrorist attack

— You are 87 times more likely to drown than die in a terrorist attack

– You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack

–You are 12 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation in bed than from a terrorist attack

–You are 9 times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit than die in a terrorist attack

–You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist

–You are 8 times more likely to die from accidental electrocution than from a terrorist attack

– You are 6 times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack

[thethe]

Who says I'm in fear? We are lucky that we have a natural border and that our government is proactive keeping the terrorists out for the most part.

[Dalyn]

Not as of the DSM-V.

And those who legally have a sex change are all cleared by a psychiatrist beforehand. Taking the stance that they all have a mental problem is ridiculous and ignorant. Most of the issues many DO have are the result of the way they are treated.

[The Chosen One]

Who says I'm in fear? We are lucky that we have a natural border and that our government is proactive keeping the terrorists out for the most part.

I have not been as proactive.

Thus, Brule, zito, weso and others in the clique are still posting here.

[zitothebrave]

**** when did we so get in mine and brules clique?

[weso1]

**** when did we so get in mine and brules clique?

You guys will love me... I believe in black accountability and bombing muslims.

[weso1]

Well I guess it's a real banner day for you, then.

Seems like you're only into accountability domestically.

I shouldn't have stated that comment the way I did jpx. I don't like it when posters do that to me and I shouldn't have done it you. I respect your opinion and I regret stating your opinion was silly. I apologize for that.

[goldfly]

8 Real Spies And Actual Bad Guys Who Got Shorter Sentences Than Bradley Manning


William Colton Millay, 16 years for attempting to sell secrets to a Russian spy
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1310852/original.jpg

Millay pleaded guilty earlier this year to attempted espionage and other counts, after selling secrets to an FBI undercover agent whom he believed was a Russian spy. The U.S. Army policeman had faced a maximum sentence of confinement for up to life without the possibility of parole.

David Henry Barnett, 18 years for selling classified documents to Soviet officials

Over a period of years during the 1970s, Barnett, a former CIA agent, revealed the identities of some 30 CIA officers and other classified information to the KGB in exchange for money. As part of his partnership with the Soviets, Barnett tried, but failed, to get a position on Capitol Hill. He would later be rehired by the CIA, before finally being outed as a spy. Barnett pleaded guilty to espionage charges in 1980, and served 10 years before being paroled in 1990.

Harold James Nicholson, 23 years for providing highly classified information to Russia
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1311298/original.jpg

The highest ranking CIA official ever convicted of spying for a foreign power, Nicholson was apprehended in 1996 at a Washington-area airport with rolls of film bearing images of Top Secret documents. He was subsequently charged with espionage and accused of having taken up a two-and-a-half year operation to hack into agency computers and provide the Russians with every secret he could steal. He was ultimately convicted of espionage, and later sentenced to additional years in prison after pleading guilty to betraying his country a second time.

Ana Belen Montes, 25 years for passing classified information to Cuba's government

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1311234/original.jpg

For 17 years, Montes, an analyst for the Defense Intelligence Agency, carried out a dynamic spy operation for Cuba. She was caught in 2001, and later plead guilty to espionage.

Earl Edwin Pitts, 27 years for giving classified information to Russian intelligence services

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1311323/original.jpg

During the late '80s and early '90s, Pitts, then an FBI special agent, spied for Russia, providing agents with Top Secret documents and information about key bureau assets. Pitts was alleged to have received $224,000 in payments for the information he gave between 1987 and 1992. He was caught in 1996, and pleaded guilty to two counts of espionage in 1997.

Michael Peri, 30 years for passing defense secrets to communist East Germany

As the Cold War was winding down in 1989, Peri, then a U.S. Army specialist, disappeared from his Germany-based regiment with a portable computer thought be filled with sensitive information. He was believed to have defected, but returned less than two weeks later and was arrested. He would eventually plead guilty to espionage.

Clayton Lonetree, 30 years for delivering classified information from American embassies to Soviet agents

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1311202/original.jpg

Lonetree confessed in 1987 to selling U.S. embassy blueprints and the names and identities of undercover intelligence agents to the Soviet Union. Lonetree's initial 30-year sentence was eventually reduced, and he was finally released in 1996 after serving nine years.

Albert Sombolay, 34 years for giving a Jordanian intelligence agent key information about the U.S. military buildup ahead of the first Gulf War

Sombolay, a specialist 4th class with the Army artillery, ultimately pleaded guilty to charges of espionage and contacting the enemy. He was reportedly paid "about $1,300 for his activities," and had attempted to get in touch with Iraqi intelligence officials as well. Somobolay ultimately served 12 years of his sentence.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/21/shorter-sentences-than-bradley-manning_n_3789754.html

[gilesfan]

it must suck to live your life in fear over a very small % of people in the globe

i mean, seriously

And why is that?

[50PoundHead]

Thanks for that post goldfly. I think the only caveat would be that all of those apprehensions happened prior to the Patriot Act.

I don't know if you subscribe to Harper's, but here is an interesting subscribers-only piece written by William Vollmann that I read over the weekend. Eye-opening.

Link: http://harpers.org/archive/2013/09/life-as-a-terrorist/

[Julio3000]

Thanks for that post goldfly. I think the only caveat would be that all of those apprehensions happened prior to the Patriot Act.

I don't know if you subscribe to Harper's, but here is an interesting subscribers-only piece written by William Vollmann that I read over the weekend. Eye-opening.

Link: http://harpers.org/archive/2013/09/life-as-a-terrorist/

Until this post, I didn't know if anyone subscribed to Harper's except me and Brother Mouzone.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGGrvn44LNA

[Tapate50]

Oh man. If I could go back and watch The Wire with that same initial wonderment... pure gold.

[Julio3000]

Oh man. If I could go back and watch The Wire with that same initial wonderment... pure gold.

Oh, man, I know.

[57Brave]

A former Montana high school teacher convicted of raping a 14-year-old female student who later committed suicide will face only 30 days of jail time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/stacy-rambold-raped-suicidal-student_n_3822640.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular