WAR

[chipchildress]

RK PLAYER TEAM GP GS IP H R ER BB SO W L SV BLSV WAR WHIP ERA
19 Rex Brothers COL 59 0 55.2 37 9 9 27 60 2 0 13 1 3.0 1.15 1.46
22 Craig Kimbrel ATL 53 0 52.2 31 6 6 17 78 2 2 41 3 2.9 0.91 1.03

[nsacpi]

pitching environment?

[sturg33]

More innings too

[yeezus]

who's WAR are you using? Fangraphs has Brothers at 1 and Kimbrel at 1.8.

[yeezus]

Ooooh ESPN, there's your problem.

[Carp]

Fangraphs WAR isn't any better. And WAR for relief pitchers (for any website) is likely the most unuseful stat in the history of stats.

[zitothebrave]

Fangraphs WAR isn't any better. And WAR for relief pitchers (for any website) is likely the most unuseful stat in the history of stats.

:facepalm:

[weso1]

I think it's because Rex brothers are two people. You have to divide by two.

[Carp]

:facepalm:


He's pitched in exactly 52 innings. But WAR would try to tell to you that he's been worth the same or more than Teheran, who has 3 times as many innings pitched and top 15 in the NL in ERA and ERA+

It's worthless for relief pitchers in every sense of the word. No one actually believes that Kimbrell has been worth the same or more than Teheran.

[thewupk]

He's pitched in exactly 52 innings. But WAR would try to tell to you that he's been worth the same or more than Teheran, who has 3 times as many innings pitched and top 15 in the NL in ERA and ERA+

It's worthless for relief pitchers in every sense of the word. No one actually believes that Kimbrell has been worth the same or more than Teheran.

Tell that to all the people who vote for dominant closers in the cy young voting

[Carp]

Tell that to all the people who vote for dominant closers in the cy young voting

I would if they'd listen, but it's the same guys who vote for guys like Russ Ortiz for Cy Young b/c he has the most wins.

[zitothebrave]

He's pitched in exactly 52 innings. But WAR would try to tell to you that he's been worth the same or more than Teheran, who has 3 times as many innings pitched and top 15 in the NL in ERA and ERA+

It's worthless for relief pitchers in every sense of the word. No one actually believes that Kimbrell has been worth the same or more than Teheran.

50 IP of 1 ERA vs 150 of 3 ERA. Sounds about right.

[Braves1976]

It seems Carp undervalues what Kimbrel has accomplished this year.

[zitothebrave]

It seems Carp undervalues what Kimbrel has accomplished this year.

He just regularly has issues with valuation.

[Julio3000]

Same old ****. Brothers gotta work twice as hard to get any respect.

[Carp]

50 IP of 1 ERA vs 150 of 3 ERA. Sounds about right.

Only in Zito fantasy land.

[zitothebrave]

Only in Zito fantasy land.

So sad that you can't grasp simple concepts of run prevention.

[Carp]

It seems Carp undervalues what Kimbrel has accomplished this year.


I do not. The point I'm making is that even the best relief pitchers are nowhere near as valuable as a top starter. There is a direct proportion from a quality start to a team win. Teams win on average almost 70% of games in which a quality start occurs.

All Zeets cares about is strikeouts.

[zitothebrave]

I do not. The point I'm making is that even the best relief pitchers are nowhere near as valuable as a top starter. There is a direct proportion from a quality start to a team win. Teams win on average almost 70% of games in which a quality start occurs.

All Zeets cares about is strikeouts.

The best reliever doesn't have as much value as a top starter. But Julio isn't a top starter.

[Carp]

So sad that you can't grasp simple concepts of run prevention.

No what's sad is that you actually buy into every single obscure stat you find.

[zitothebrave]

No what's sad is that you actually buy into every single obscure stat you find.

I don't. I research everything and believe in valuations.

Kimbrel has 1.03 ERA and 1.95 FIP in 52.2 IP

Julio has a 3.08 ERA and 3.83 FIP in 155 IP

[yeezus]

The best reliever doesn't have as much value as a top starter. But Julio isn't a top starter.

this, but i still think it's debatable to say they've both been equal.

[Carp]

The best reliever doesn't have as much value as a top starter. But Julio isn't a top starter.


He's as close as you can be to a top starter this yr. Feel free to use Mike Minor in replace of Teheran if you prefer that since WAR values him no better than Kimbrel.

Or for further ridiculousness, Stephen Strasburg is has been worth no more than Kimbrell this yr according to WAR.

[zitothebrave]

this, but i still think it's debatable to say they've both been equal.

And that's fine, but to insinuate that it's impossible for Kimbrel to be as good as a good starter is also wrong.

[zitothebrave]

He's as close as you can be to a top starter this yr. Feel free to use Mike Minor in replace of Teheran if you prefer that since WAR values him no better than Kimbrel.

Or for further ridiculoufasness, Stephen Strasburg is has been worth no more than Kimbrell this yr according to WAR.

Strasburg his a much higher fWAR than Kimbrel. And context really isn't your strong suit huh?

[Carp]

I don't. I research everything and believe in valuations.

Kimbrel has 1.03 ERA and 1.95 FIP in 52.2 IP

Julio has a 3.08 ERA and 3.83 FIP in 155 IP

Except reliever valuations are crap. Giving a reliever as much, or more value for pitching 1 inning effectively, compared to a starter who throws 6+ or more innings effectively is beyond stupid.

[zitothebrave]

Except reliever valuations are crap. Giving a reliever as much, or more value for pitching 1 inning effectively, compared to a starter who throws 6+ or more innings effectively is beyond stupid.

And a reliever makes 60+ appearancesin a season while a starter makes about 33. There's value to both. Relievers also often pitch in high pressure or lower leverage situations.

[Carp]

Strasburg his a much higher fWAR than Kimbrel. And context really isn't your strong suit huh?



And that has what to do with the argument? Other than proving WAR for pitchers is completely bogus.

[yeezus]

He's as close as you can be to a top starter this yr. Feel free to use Mike Minor in replace of Teheran if you prefer that since WAR values him no better than Kimbrel.

Or for further ridiculousness, Stephen Strasburg is has been worth no more than Kimbrell this yr according to WAR.

Fangraphs has Kimbrel at 1.8 and Minor at 3.3 and Stras at 2.5

[zitothebrave]

And that has what to do with the argument? Other than proving WAR for pitchers is completely bogus.

So you don't think Stras has been better than Kimbrel now? I'm confused

[yeezus]

So you don't think Stras has been better than Kimbrel now? I'm confused

No his point was WAR is pointless (plain WAR) not fWAR though I'm not sure how they differ.

Hence using WAR which is what this thread is about is pointless, but I guess fWAR isn't.

[zitothebrave]

No his point was WAR is pointless (plain WAR) not fWAR though I'm not sure how they differ.

Hence using WAR which is what this thread is about is pointless, but I guess fWAR isn't.

Carpe hates WAR because he believes a stat has to be perfect to be used. Ignoring the fallacy that no stat is true and it's all subjective. Like wht does batting average not count walks or sacrificies? Why is a ground out that scores a runner not a sacrifice? What is a hit or error. Why do errors not count towards ERA? So on so forth.

[Carp]

So you don't think Stras has been better than Kimbrel now? I'm confused


WAR, as a general stat, is not even consistent enough among starting pitchers to be used effectively, much less for relief pitchers.

[zitothebrave]

WAR, as a general stat, is not even consistent enough among starting pitchers to be used effectively, much less for relief pitchers.

I'd like to see your research behind that. Oh wait you don't have any, just an opinion.

[Carp]

Carpe hates WAR because he believes a stat has to be perfect to be used. Ignoring the fallacy that no stat is true and it's all subjective. Like wht does batting average not count walks or sacrificies? Why is a ground out that scores a runner not a sacrifice? What is a hit or error. Why do errors not count towards ERA? So on so forth.


No I hate WAR b/c douche-nozzles throw it around like like the Bible when there are severe flaws in the calculations. And then when the flaws are presented, you refuse to acknowledge them.

[zitothebrave]

No I hate WAR b/c douche-nozzles throw it around like like the Bible when there are severe flaws in the calculations. And then when the flaws are presented, you refuse to acknowledge them.

I'd like to see your indepth research into these flaws. Outside of "everystat has flaws"

[Carp]

I'd like to see your research behind that. Oh wait you don't have any, just an opinion.

You yourself just listed some evidence in this thread.

[zitothebrave]

You yourself just listed some evidence in this thread.

Research.

Of course I don't expect you to back that up.

Chris Johnson>AP

LMAO

[yeezus]

Research.

Of course I don't expect you to back that up.

Chris Johnson>AP

LMAO

who's AP?

[zitothebrave]

who's AP?

Adrian Peterson, it's from an old football debate

[yeezus]

Adrian Peterson, it's from an old football debate

Oh damn you said Chris Johnson and I thought you meant our one and only BABIP.

[zitothebrave]

Yeah I should have clarified. But Carpe knew what I was talking bout

[Carp]

Research.

Of course I don't expect you to back that up.

Chris Johnson>AP

LMAO


Lists evidence that says WAR is inconsistent, then says he wants research proving otherwise.... LULZ


As far as AP and CJ, I said that when CJ was the best RB in the league, and the results showed it. I used to say Pujols was the best hitter in the league when he was producing too. Shocker.

[zitothebrave]

Lists evidence that says WAR is inconsistent, then says he wants research proving otherwise.... LULZ


As far as AP and CJ, I said that when CJ was the best RB in the league, and the results showed it. I used to say Pujols was the best hitter in the league when he was producing too. Shocker.

Results didn't show that then if you actually knew what you were talking about. Johnson had 1 amazing year then a bunch of good or bad ones depending on how many times he broke a big run or not. Face it I was massivvely right you were massively wrong. It's ok, it happens a lot when we debate.

[Carp]

Results didn't show that then if you actually knew what you were talking about. Johnson had 1 amazing year then a bunch of good or bad ones depending on how many times he broke a big run or not. Face it I was massivvely right you were massively wrong. It's ok, it happens a lot when we debate.


At the time I said that, he had the most yards in the league since he came into the league and had yet to have a down yr.

[zitothebrave]

At the time I said that, he had the most yards in the league since he came into the league and had yet to have a down yr.

At the time you said that the sample was skewed by a 2000 yard season. I clearly pointed out that if you eliminated Johnson's homerun carries, he lost an insane amount of yards. He benefitted from a good run blocking OL, something AP didn't have. I forget which stat I cited but I believe it was number of times the back was hit in the backfield and Johnson was near the bottom but AP was near the top.

[JCarbo76]

RK PLAYER TEAM GP GS IP H R ER BB SO W L SV BLSV WAR WHIP ERA
19 Rex Brothers COL 59 0 55.2 37 9 9 27 60 2 0 13 1 3.0 1.15 1.46
22 Craig Kimbrel ATL 53 0 52.2 31 6 6 17 78 2 2 41 3 2.9 0.91 1.03

"War! huh! (Good God, Y'all) What is it good for?"---Edwin Starr.

[sturg33]

My beef with WAR is I don't understand why different sites have different numbers?

Why does fangraphs differ from BR. And ESPN?

Which should I use?

[zitothebrave]

My beef with WAR is I don't understand why different sites have different numbers?

Why does fangraphs differ from BR. And ESPN?

Which should I use?

The which you should use is your choice. This year BR and fangraphs closed their gap by using the same replacement level gap. For which one to use it depends on what you value more, for offensive value essentially fg uses wRAA + UBR in br they use wRAA with a few twists (most which don't make a difference in today's life) their own version of baserunning, and ground into double play stat. For defense fg uses UZR br uses DRS. So basically they have similar offensive values but the difference is if you like UZR or DRS. For example, Simmons has a 3.8 fWAR but a 5.4 rWAR. Because of the difference in his DRS vs UZR. So to determine which of those 2 you like better you have to decide which fielding metric you like better. For pitching they vary greatly. Basically you would decided which stat you like better ERA or FIP. Personally since we roll defensive stats into the positive or negative I prefer FIP, Bref's version is improving but to me there are too many sliding factors involved. They try to take ERA then try to apply a defensive slider for it, which to me is one too many moving parts. They'll get there when they have a more clean way of adjusting for balls in play. Personally I'm hoping FG makes the switch to doing SIERA for their WAR as I think it's a more accurate measurement than FIP though it does need some fine tuning.

And I could be wrong, but I believe ESPN uses bref's WAR

[chopdrew]

Same old ****. Brothers gotta work twice as hard to get any respect.
Nearly every one of you people skimmed right past this post. This is tremendous. I'd like it 18 times if I could.