No Respect, I Tell Ya

[Gary82]

Usually, I don't really give two ****s about what ESPN or any national covering conglomerate has to say about the Braves. Mainly because their goal is to focus on something that's ratings worthy. Controversial stuff, large market teams, etc.

But when I saw this video about the power rankings, it made my blood boil.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9625931


I didn't appreciate this snide remark by Karl Ravech. He and his little smirk can go to hell.

It's interesting that when you take a look at the Braves going into the postseason where people will give them the respect and if they deserve it.

I think we're going to take a lot of "experts" and "analysts" by surprise this October.

[cajunrevenge]

You cant let things like that bother you, in the end where the talking heads rank the Braves has 0 effect on what happens in the playoffs. If we dont make it past the division series then they were right to rank us where they have. We know winning in October is never a sure thing no matter how good the team is. We have a team with a lot of very good and the only truly elite player we have is Kimbrel and thats not really the position you want your elite player to be.

[Gary82]

Like I said, it usually doesn't bother me. It's the smug ass way they went about it that got me.

[CyYoung31]

11 wins in October will probably jump out at them.

[NYCBrave]

I have to be honest, the points they made were fair. "There is nothing about the team that jumps out at you". When you look at the Braves from a playoff perspective, a lot of other teams look better on paper. That's just the way it's going to be. Now, that being said, the Nationals looked better on paper to the experts coming into the season and look what happened. Bottom line is, the Braves out of most playoff teams are more built for the long haul rather than a short series. Only time will tell.

[yeezus]

I have to be honest, the points they made were fair. "There is nothing about the team that jumps out at you". When you look at the Braves from a playoff perspective, a lot of other teams look better on paper. That's just the way it's going to be. Now, that being said, the Nationals looked better on paper to the experts coming into the season and look what happened. Bottom line is, the Braves out of most playoff teams are more built for the long haul rather than a short series. Only time will tell.

It jumps out at me that they're very good in every area, especially if Heyward is playing.

[Runnin]

Usually, I don't really give two ****s about what ESPN or any national covering conglomerate has to say about the Braves. Mainly because their goal is to focus on something that's ratings worthy. Controversial stuff, large market teams, etc.

But when I saw this video about the power rankings, it made my blood boil.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9625931


That's right where we need to be. Better to be under-rated and feel we've got something to prove. But he's right that we don't have any big parts that jump out at you - just a somewhat underwhelming team that seems to scrape by night after night. Not bad for the youngest team in baseball with a ton of injuries and slumping hitters.

[Heyward]

Without looking maybe fair.

Still think we're built for 162 over a playoff series.

[jsebe10]

Lol. Couple of boners. Just gotta ignore it man.

[weso1]

Without looking maybe fair.

Still think we're built for 162 over a playoff series.

That may be true, but who other than the Dodgers are built for that in the NL that will actually get to the playoffs?

Pirates... Don't think so.

Cards.... meh.. only one ace on that staff.

Reds... Don't think so.

The Dodgers appear to be the best team right now, but after that there really isn't another obvious favorite. And the Braves really shouldn't expect to compete with the Dodgers' finances.

[Jay212033]

I really, REALLY hope the Braves win it all this year!!! Mark Mulder's comment pissed me off more than anything! Please Braves shut him the heck up!

[MadduxFanII]

I've been rather impressed when watching our games on TBS and MLB at how harsh Smoltz in his judgment of the club. Certainly no one's going to accuse him of bias for the old club; it was particularly something listening to him turn a Justin Upton home run against the Cardinals into a damning indictment of the offense within 10 seconds of Upton crossing the plate.

People will have their opinions, and they don't always have to align with mine. That's fine. But if you find more to criticize than to praise in the 2013 Atlanta Braves, you're doing analysis all wrong.

[Runnin]

You don't have to have a bunch of big stars to be a good playoff team. A shutdown type ace pitcher would be nice. Our guys have been that most of the year but they are very young. Interesting to see what they will do in the playoffs.

[stpeteirish]

I've been rather impressed when watching our games on TBS and MLB at how harsh Smoltz in his judgment of the club. Certainly no one's going to accuse him of bias for the old club; it was particularly something listening to him turn a Justin Upton home run against the Cardinals into a damning indictment of the offense within 10 seconds of Upton crossing the plate.

People will have their opinions, and they don't always have to align with mine. That's fine. But if you find more to criticize than to praise in the 2013 Atlanta Braves, you're doing analysis all wrong.

Beat me to it, I was going to make the same point. Is Smoltz national media? I guess so he's doing games on MLBN and TBS and is continuous in pointing out how bad we are. Makes you would what pissed him off, obviously something did.

[conalthomas]

I saw the power rankings clip that was posted at ESPN that you're talking about, and I was kind of irritated as others have described. I think that Mulder's and Ravech's comments reflect a shallow, read-the-headlines type of analysis. As others have pointed out, it is true that the Braves don't really have many players that are truly elite - Kimbrel, and I would add Simmons - there probably isn't any other shortstop I would rather have. That said, the Braves have the best record despite having lost multiple key players for the season, and other key players for extended periods of time. They, along with the Dodgers and Pirates, have separated themselves from the pack with regard to team ERA, and of those three teams, the Braves have the best scoring offense. They've also done well against the top teams, so their record is not just the result of beating up on weak teams. This is a deep team, with a lot of very good players. If you look at performance measures their record is not at all surprising.

[Julio3000]

That's it. "Analysts" struggle for traction when they look at the team and don't see someone who's been bestowed the accolade of "ace" or a guy with eye-popping offensive numbers.

[thethe]

If Heyward had any luck at the beginning of the season we would be looking at a team that has FIVE (Freeman/Upton/Johnson/Mac/Heyward) guys who have 800+ OPS. Thats why we are winning. Its not just one or two guys on offense. Its a host of players. Oh yeah, we have the best pitching in baseball.

[GovClintonTyree]

Nice points, Conal...I would point out that Mark Mulder's opinion means nothing, that we haven't done much with our playoff appearances this century and the way to shut up this kind of Pez-dispenser analysis is by stomping some people in October.

[Julio3000]

There's always the possibility that we catch some bad luck or just fall flat, but I think this team has the mettle for a good playoff run.

[clvclv]

I have to be honest, the points they made were fair. "There is nothing about the team that jumps out at you". When you look at the Braves from a playoff perspective, a lot of other teams look better on paper. That's just the way it's going to be. Now, that being said, the Nationals looked better on paper to the experts coming into the season and look what happened. Bottom line is, the Braves out of most playoff teams are more built for the long haul rather than a short series. Only time will tell.


"There is nothing about the team that jumps out at you" - except the fact that the starting lineup has played together 28 times all season and they STILL have the best record in baseball.

Oh yeah, that and the fact that the Braves have a winning record against EVERY OTHER contender in the NL - yes ESPN and Jim Bowden, that includes the Dodgers.

We're exactly where you want to be - the world knows how good this team can be and not only doesn't want to admit it for fear they'll be called out for jumping on the bandwagon late...they're much more afraid of us than they want to let on as well.

[Temo]

The braves are a very deep team. We don't have any obvious weaknesses at any position, our bench is deep, and our rotation, including injuries, is legit 7-deep. The bullpen has the best ERA in the majors.

That said, depth matters for very little in the playoffs. What does seem to matter in the playoffs, based on studies that were done, is a top-heavy K-heavy pitching staff (don't have that), a good defense (kinda have that), and an elite closer/back end of the bullpen (check).

[nsacpi]

The team is a bit underrated because it doesn't have an MVP or Cy Young type player. But it is above-average in many areas, which allows it to grind down the opposition. It does have two exceptional players-Simmons and Kimbrel-but for different reasons they are not fully appreciated by non-Braves fans or even many Braves fans.

In the case of Kimbrel, part of it is that most people realize a great starter is worth quite a bit more than a great closer and part of it is due to the fact that he was a bit better last year.

With Simba, you have to watch him every day to appreciate what a huge difference his defense makes.

Anyhow, this is one of the best Braves teams of the past twenty years, and we have had plenty of great teams in this period. It has survived a lot of injuries. I read somewhere we have had more different players go on the DL this year than any other team. The playoffs are always a crapshoot but I think our chances of winning the WS are better than all but two other teams (the Dodgers and Tigers).

I think the key to our post-season is the starting pitching. We are going to need a couple starters to step up and allow us to win a couple games where the offense is scuffling against the other team's ace. We just need to stay in those kinds of games until both teams turn things over to the bullpen. At that point the odds will tilt in our favor.

[sturg33]

****! Mulder doesn't think we can win?

Wel, it was a fun season at least.

[MadduxFanII]

There's always the possibility that we catch some bad luck or just fall flat, but I think this team has the mettle for a good playoff run.

What makes this conversation annoying is the knowledge that there's a very good chance we'll flame out of the playoffs, not because of some flaw in roster construction or team character, but simply because that **** happens in the playoffs. And we know that far better than most. So we might very well end up losing in the LDS, and everyone at ESPN and MLB can pat themselves on the back for their prescience, when really it's just how the stupid playoff dice fall.

[gtcway]

I don't care if we get swept in the world series not scoring a run, all I want is for the Braves to play either the Dodgers or Cardinals in the NLCS and beat them on their field, while being broadcast by ESPN.

They'll probably go straight to commercials and start airing an special overview of the great season that the Dodgers/Cardinals had and how they're such a great team.

[NYCBrave]

"There is nothing about the team that jumps out at you" - except the fact that the starting lineup has played together 28 times all season and they STILL have the best record in baseball.

Oh yeah, that and the fact that the Braves have a winning record against EVERY OTHER contender in the NL - yes ESPN and Jim Bowden, that includes the Dodgers.

We're exactly where you want to be - the world knows how good this team can be and not only doesn't want to admit it for fear they'll be called out for jumping on the bandwagon late...they're much more afraid of us than they want to let on as well.

Don't forget to point out the fact we missed Kershaw both series. And that's exactly what makes the playoffs so different, we can't hide from facing the best pitcher in the league twice in one series.

[gilesfan]

That may be true, but who other than the Dodgers are built for that in the NL that will actually get to the playoffs?

Pirates... Don't think so.

Cards.... meh.. only one ace on that staff.

Reds... Don't think so.

The Dodgers appear to be the best team right now, but after that there really isn't another obvious favorite. And the Braves really shouldn't expect to compete with the Dodgers' finances.

The Cards have Shelby Miller, who is every bit of an ace.

I think it's pretty wide open in the NL. Lean Cards (kinda have to, they are proven winners and have 2 guys that can stack up with anyone).

[Heyward]

The Cards have Shelby Miller, who is every bit of an ace.

I think it's pretty wide open in the NL. Lean Cards (kinda have to, they are proven winners and have 2 guys that can stack up with anyone).

It's the Dodgers for one simple reason.

Their top two pitchers are better than every starter for every NL team.

No team in the NL can matchup with Kershaw and Greinke, it's really that simple. Throw in Ryu and Nolasco and that's a deadly rotation.

And Miller at home, yes, his road numbers are night and day different.

[Garmel]

With Greinke's anxiety disorder I don't expect him to hold up well in the playoffs.

[Temo]

With Greinke's anxiety disorder I don't expect him to hold up well in the playoffs.

Social anxiety does not work that way.

[Garmel]

Social anxiety does not work that way.

I have social anxiety. It does work that way with most of us. Put me in a big game and watch me freak the **** out.

[Julio3000]

What makes this conversation annoying is the knowledge that there's a very good chance we'll flame out of the playoffs, not because of some flaw in roster construction or team character, but simply because that **** happens in the playoffs. And we know that far better than most. So we might very well end up losing in the LDS, and everyone at ESPN and MLB can pat themselves on the back for their prescience, when really it's just how the stupid playoff dice fall.

I hates it, but it's true.

[Heyward]

Don't forget to point out the fact we missed Kershaw both series. And that's exactly what makes the playoffs so different, we can't hide from facing the best pitcher in the league twice in one series.

And we got the Dodgers at home before Puig, no Hanley.

Missed Greinke and Kershaw that series.

Got them when they were struggling a lot.

Second series Hanley could only pinch hit and as you said, avoided Kershaw.

[Gary82]

Right now, I would rank the Dodgers as the best team in baseball. They've been hot as the Braves, but for much longer. As already mentioned, their top two guys in their rotation make them a formidable foe in the postseason.

We'll see what happens. I think the strength of our bullpen makes us competitive in the postseason. Plus, we need Heyward back.

[Heyward]

Giles, would you say Julio is an ace if Miller is?

Julio and Millers numbers are about the same.

[gilesfan]

Giles, would you say Julio is an ace if Miller is?

Julio and Millers numbers are about the same.

I would say Julio is on the verge. His numbers are very good.....not quite Miller good, but not too far off either.

[Heyward]

I would say Julio is on the verge. His numbers are very good.....not quite Miller good, but not too far off either.

Their numbers are nearly the same.

Julio has a better ERA, less walks, 10-12 less strikeouts, .1 less WHIP with more innings.

About as close as it could get.

[Temo]

I have social anxiety. It does work that way with most of us. Put me in a big game and watch me freak the **** out.

From what I've heard from people who have it, being in front of 5 people is no worse or better than being around 50 people. I've been taught that it doesn't scale that way.

[clvclv]

The Cards have Shelby Miller, who is every bit of an ace.

I think it's pretty wide open in the NL. Lean Cards (kinda have to, they are proven winners and have 2 guys that can stack up with anyone).


IF Miller's an "Ace" (as pointed out above, his numbers are no better than Teheran's), who's their second "Ace"??? The guy the Reds just pounded like a AA Pitcher in his last two starts? Got a text from a Cardinal diehard who watches every game yesterday, and he said there's something wrong with Wainright even though it's not being talked about. Go back and look at his last several starts. Maybe it's just dead-arm, maybe not - who knows? His velocity's down and he's getting hit HARD, even with that curve. He had one good outing against us (which you count on happening because of the adrenaline involved), but he's certainly not deserving of being included in any Kershaw discussions.

[thethe]

Wainwright is absolutely an ace. Two bad starts in a row doesn't change that.

[gilesfan]

Miller averages over a strikeout more per 9. Less than a half a walk less.

There isn't a huge gap between the 2, but I woudl say Miller has been a bit better.

Waiwright had given up 8 er in last 30 innings before last 2 bad starts.

[CyYoung31]

That's it. "Analysts" struggle for traction when they look at the team and don't see someone who's been bestowed the accolade of "ace" or a guy with eye-popping offensive numbers.

It's lazy. Being an "analyst" on ESPN has to be the easiest job in the world.

[Heyward]

Wainwright is absolutely an ace. Two bad starts in a row doesn't change that.

Agreed but if Miller is an ace, so is Julio.

Their numbers are nearly identical as I posted above.

[Enscheff]

The scary thing is that there isn't a SINGLE player on this roster that we should expect to regress next year outside of CJ's BA (he is probably a .280-.290 hitter). Every single other player should pretty much expect to be BETTER next year, or at the very worst, the same.

BJ and Uggla can't possibly be any worse next year. Justin should find some more consistency as he matures. Heyward will eventually run out of odd injuries that can possibly happen to him (just go ahead and have his tonsils removed as a precautionary measure this offseason). Freeman should continue to improve steadily, likely in the power department. Simmons' defense will remain steady, and he should only get better at the plate. Mac should keep being Mac, and Gattis should be able to learn how to hit a curve eventually.

I won't go through all the pitchers, but none of them are having some freak year, and all have plenty of room to improve (except Kimbrel obviously).

[Julio3000]

It's lazy. Being an "analyst" on ESPN has to be the easiest job in the world.

Job requirements:

1) Complete a career in MLB (on-field or front office).
2) Lack any thoughtfulness or insight.
3) Absolutely nothing else.

I'm pretty sure they don't drug-test, either.

[CyYoung31]

The scary thing is that there isn't a SINGLE player on this roster that we should expect to regress next year outside of CJ's BA (he is probably a .280-.290 hitter). Every single other player should pretty much expect to be BETTER next year, or at the very worst, the same.

BJ and Uggla can't possibly be any worse next year. Justin should find some more consistency as he matures. Heyward will eventually run out of odd injuries that can possibly happen to him (just go ahead and have his tonsils removed as a precautionary measure this offseason). Freeman should continue to improve steadily, likely in the power department. Simmons' defense will remain steady, and he should only get better at the plate. Mac should keep being Mac, and Gattis should be able to learn how to hit a curve eventually.

I won't go through all the pitchers, but none of them are having some freak year, and all have plenty of room to improve (except Kimbrel obviously).

How many times have we said that about Uggla?

Well, 3 I guess. But, the point still stands.

[Garmel]

From what I've heard from people who have it, being in front of 5 people is no worse or better than being around 50 people.

Well, just from what I've experienced personally it doesn't work that way.

[Orphan Black]

Miller averages over a strikeout more per 9. Less than a half a walk less.

There isn't a huge gap between the 2, but I woudl say Miller has been a bit better.

Waiwright had given up 8 er in last 30 innings before last 2 bad starts.

Teheran WAR - 3.1
Miller WAR - 2.8

Teheran ERA+ - 129
Miller ERA+ - 117

Teheran has been every bit the pitcher that Miller has and probably has been better.

[cajunrevenge]

What we should be looking at is how good Miller and Teheran are right now, what they did in April doesnt really have relevance to October. Second half stats so far Teheran in 8 starts 48.1 innings 2.23 ERA 35 hits 19 walks 54 k's. Miller in 7 starts 39.1 innings 3.66 ERA 38 hits 15 walks 42 k's. To be fair to Miller I took out his start where he got hit by a line drive by the second batter of the game and was removed. Teheran has been more consistent posting an ERA under 3 since the first month of the season. Miller has an ERA over 4 in June and August.

[yeezus]

The Cards have Shelby Miller, who is every bit of an ace.

I think it's pretty wide open in the NL. Lean Cards (kinda have to, they are proven winners and have 2 guys that can stack up with anyone).

Miller is not an ace. He's been very shaky lately. He's not an ace yet.

[thethe]

Miller is not an ace. He's been very shaky lately. He's not an ace yet.

Didn't you know? Every team is better than the Braves to GF.

[yeezus]

Didn't you know? Every team is better than the Braves to GF.

It's like Braves fans aren't allowed to be excited about anyone, ever. GF always has to try and shut it down.
And Miller is not an ace yet. I don't think Teheran is, either. That term gets thrown around too much sometimes. Wainwright is an ace. Miller is not Wainwright.

[yeezus]

It's also crazy how ESPN is all over Jose Iglesias' nuts.

[Heyward]

It's like Braves fans aren't allowed to be excited about anyone, ever. GF always has to try and shut it down.
And Miller is not an ace yet. I don't think Teheran is, either. That term gets thrown around too much sometimes. Wainwright is an ace. Miller is not Wainwright.

Agreed, it's ridiculous everytime someone brings up a Braves player, he bashes them or whatnot. When people say good things about one.

As posted above, the numbers are basically identical.

Neither are aces, they don't have the track record as of this moment but if Miller is one, so is Julio.

[yeezus]

Teheran has been trending up, Miller down.
Miller will still be really good, but I trust Teheran more right now.

[JusticeForAll23]

The scary thing is that there isn't a SINGLE player on this roster that we should expect to regress next year outside of CJ's BA (he is probably a .280-.290 hitter). Every single other player should pretty much expect to be BETTER next year, or at the very worst, the same.

BJ and Uggla can't possibly be any worse next year. Justin should find some more consistency as he matures. Heyward will eventually run out of odd injuries that can possibly happen to him (just go ahead and have his tonsils removed as a precautionary measure this offseason). Freeman should continue to improve steadily, likely in the power department. Simmons' defense will remain steady, and he should only get better at the plate. Mac should keep being Mac, and Gattis should be able to learn how to hit a curve eventually.

I won't go through all the pitchers, but none of them are having some freak year, and all have plenty of room to improve (except Kimbrel obviously).
Might as well make him wear one of those softball facemask helmets, a Barry Bonds style elbow guard, and see if he can just wear catcher's shin guards when he bats.

[Dunit24]

So nothing jumps out about us and other teams look better on paper, yet, we have the best record in baseball.

Sounds to me like Fredi Gonzalez deserves manager of the year then. Doubt that happens though.

[jcc03004]

Wite anxiety disorder I don't expect him to hold up well in the playoffs. will someone please look up grienke's post season numbers they are awful with a capital A and when exactly has kershaw stArted a postseAson game? Nolasco hasn't impressed me and we all seen a lot out of him they're pen can't touch atours. The dodgers can be beaten 2 aces or not we had 3 did that make us automatic? How about mussina,Clemens and pettite
Oh yAh they lost to Beckett Burnett and penny

[Dunit24]

It's like Braves fans aren't allowed to be excited about anyone, ever. GF always has to try and shut it down.
And Miller is not an ace yet. I don't think Teheran is, either. That term gets thrown around too much sometimes. Wainwright is an ace. Miller is not Wainwright.

Ive noticed that for the longest regarding GF. Bitter Nats fan.

[O'Dandelo]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9655198/postseason-not-fun-braves

[cajunrevenge]

Well the video was a lot better than the article. To say the Braves dont have the pitching to win the world series is laugable to me. I dont know what more Teheran has to do to be considered an ace. He wont get to 200 innings but thats only because they are limiting him to protect his arm. He averages 6 1/3rd inning per start and over a full 34 starts thats 213 innings. He might be our most pitch efficient pitcher. He has only gone over 100 pitches 8 times in 26 starts. Since his first 3 starts he has put up a 2.54 ERA.

[Gary82]

The video was quite optimistic about the Braves chances in the postseason.


"They're built for the regular season, but if I were them I'd be really scared about the postseason," said an AL scout. "They don't manufacture runs. Lots of swings and misses. They're good against No. 4-5 starters, but you don't face a lot of those guys in the playoffs."

I wonder what our record is against teams' top two starters this season. The argument is that we can't beat the best pitching, but I think that's bull.

[Orphan Black]

I'd be curious to know as well. They mentioned a handful of starters in the article some of whom aren't even pitching like #1 or #2 starters this season. They probably picked that handful because it backed up their statement.


The video was quite optimistic about the Braves chances in the postseason.



I wonder what our record is against teams' top two starters this season. The argument is that we can't beat the best pitching, but I think that's bull.

[Metaphysicist]

The obvious question is, who does fare well against Kershaw or Harvey? But the numbers lend credence to the perception that the Braves are vulnerable to the iron. Zack Greinke, Cliff Lee, Bumgarner, Cain, Stephen Strasburg, Adam Wainwright, Cole Hamels, Jordan Zimmermann, Hyun-Jin Ryu, Patrick Corbin, Shelby Miller, Fernandez and Harvey -- pitchers who would generally qualify as elite -- are a combined 14-6 with a 2.23 ERA and 194 strikeouts in 173 2/3 innings against Atlanta this season.

Y'all oughta be able to make a mighty big pie, what with all them cherries you been pick'n.

[Runnin]

Y'all oughta be able to make a mighty big pie, what with all them cherries you been pick'n.
A ton of excellent motivational material in that video and article. Fredi thanks ESPN.