Luis Robert Leaves Cuba

[clvclv]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/luis-robert-leaves-cuba-clock-ticking-new-rules-begin/#vzqYiovS06KQ86FA.97


Would be another great add for the Braves.

[bravesfanMatt]

yes please. reminds me of the Lazzaro hoopla last year however.

[smootness]

We should definitely be in on him, but I would assume we're probably a tad wary of the Cuban market, and he's probably going to sign for quite a bit if he gets cleared in time. I think he's a significantly better prospect than Armenteros, though.

[Hudson2]

He should be pushing hard to sign before the June deadline given the new rules from the CBA kick in starting in July. If we could add him that would be pretty big for the farm.

[Carp]

Would be surprised if we went after him honestly, with the 100 percent penalty we'd have to pay.

[Enscheff]

He should be pushing hard to sign before the June deadline given the new rules from the CBA kick in starting in July. If we could add him that would be pretty big for the farm.

A team could still offer him $5M+ next signing period if they want him, so waiting isn't going to affect him much. Any team that signs him this period will pay the 100% penalty so the overall cost will be doubled.

Is he worth $8M+ to the Braves?

[Hudson2]

With how we've bought a prospect before like Touki I wouldn't be surprised to see us go over and pay a penalty. Especially with us probably gonna get a later draft pick next year with a better record.

[mqt]

A team could still offer him $5M+ next signing period if they want him, so waiting isn't going to affect him much. Any team that signs him this period will pay the 100% penalty so the overall cost will be doubled.

Is he worth $8M+ to the Braves?

I'm not saying the answer is necessarily yes, but it wouldn't shock me. We were in on Lazarito before we inadvertently shot ourselves in the foot by running it through the agent he parted ways with instead of his parents, and I'd imagine at that juncture the price tag was at least similar. The FO has said in the past that they really want to blow it out of the water this IFA period and that we'd make signings throughout the period. Wouldn't it make more sense to pay the price to get another impact youngster in the system than it would to sign a guy like Wieters? Everyone seems to agree the Braves have money left to spend and are just waiting for the right opportunity to do so. Adding to our stable of impact up the middle prospects would seem like such an opportunity.

[Enscheff]

I agree 100% with the notion of preferring Robert to some FA that represents a marginal upgrade to the MLB team like Wieters.

[zbhargrove]

I think he's worth the risk. Would be a nice addition and puts an immediate top prospect position player into the system. I would hope Olivera wouldn't make them skittish here... completely different situation and the Braves wouldn't have as much competition to sign him if he can sign before the deadline. I would personally like to see us take a shot with him and the Korean 3rd baseman.

[Chico]

I'm not sure if he's worth it or not, but it does seem like the kind of risk we'd be glad to take. He fits the profile.

[CJ9]

Baseball America profile on him: http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/timing-key-cuban-outfielder-luis-robert/#Z0pV7QxfVfP7XGz1.97

The most meaningful paragraph for us: "Before then, teams are still free to spend past their bonus pools. Most of the teams with the best chance to sign Robert are the ones that have already exceeded their pools. The Padres and Cardinals are drawing the most attention. The Astros could be in the mix. The Braves, Reds, Nationals and Athletics are also over their bonus pools."

Doesn't really sound like we're in the mix all that much if the only mention is that we're over our bonus pool.

[Southcack77]

I think he's worth the risk. Would be a nice addition and puts an immediate top prospect position player into the system. I would hope Olivera wouldn't make them skittish here... completely different situation and the Braves wouldn't have as much competition to sign him if he can sign before the deadline. I would personally like to see us take a shot with him and the Korean 3rd baseman.

I have no idea whether the Braves have any spending limits in sight, but this would certainly be a nice addition. I have a feeling the Braves have exhausted their funds though, which would be a reason to potentially criticize the old pitcher signings. Attempting relevance there might have the opportunity cost of acquiring someone like this. Of course the Padres might just be in better position to overpay regardless.

I don't know that he and Oliveira have much in common though so that shouldn't really affect their decision.

[zbhargrove]

I have no idea whether the Braves have any spending limits in sight, but this would certainly be a nice addition. I have a feeling the Braves have exhausted their funds though, which would be a reason to potentially criticize the old pitcher signings. Attempting relevance there might have the opportunity cost of acquiring someone like this. Of course the Padres might just be in better position to overpay regardless.

I don't know that he and Oliveira have much in common though so that shouldn't really affect their decision.

They have almost nothing in common, but it may make them shy away from Cubans

[bravesfanMatt]

I see no way the Braves land him. If he is cleared before June 15th, then the bidding on him will keep the Braves away.. especially with the report about the Braves being in the hole 20+ million in 2016. And if he post after June 15th, then obviously he won't sign for 300K..

[Enscheff]

I see no way the Braves land him. If he is cleared before June 15th, then the bidding on him will keep the Braves away.. especially with the report about the Braves being in the hole 20+ million in 2016. And if he post after June 15th, then obviously he won't sign for 300K..

This is unfortunate. Spending whatever it took to get Robert would have been infinitely more valuable to the organization than giving contracts to guys like Dickey and Colon.

Yet another series of moves by Coppy that show me he is a mediocre GM at best. Rather than signing the best international prospect not named Otani, the Braves spent over $20M on a couple of geriatric pitchers on a team that will be lucky to sniff a .500 record.

Very poor allocation of assets.

[smootness]

This is unfortunate. Spending whatever it took to get Robert would have been infinitely more valuable to the organization than giving contracts to guys like Dickey and Colon.

Yet another series of moves by Coppy that show me he is a mediocre GM at best. Rather than signing the best international prospect not named Otani, the Braves spent over $20M on a couple of geriatric pitchers on a team that will be lucky to sniff a .500 record.

Very poor allocation of assets.

I'm pretty confident the Dickey/Colon signings have 0 to do with our inability/unwillingness to go after Robert. But continue with the agenda.

[bravesfanMatt]

I'm pretty confident the Dickey/Colon signings have 0 to do with our inability/unwillingness to go after Robert. But continue with the agenda.

Colon and Dickey signings have nothing to do with the 20 million lose in 2016, since their contracts are not payable until 2017. those have absolutely noting to do with each other. Eating Bourn and Swisher and going big in the J2 singings was the reason we lost 20 million.

My point about the 20 million lose in 2016 is that it might be harder to justify another high profile signing that doesn't produce a tangible return immediately and that is not set in a salary budget like Colon and Dickey are.

[Enscheff]

I'm pretty confident the Dickey/Colon signings have 0 to do with our inability/unwillingness to go after Robert. But continue with the agenda.

So you don't think the Braves operate on a budget? Or giving those 2 pitchers $20M instead of signing Robert was a better use of that budget? Or do the Braves just not think Robert is a good prospect? Or some combination of all 3?

[Hudson2]

If the Braves are interested I don't think we'd hear much about it right now anyways. But it would make sense for us to overpay for somebody like that who can be a future piece in a big way than somebody who will be here for just one or 2 seasons.

[Horsehide Harry]

Would be surprised if we went after him honestly, with the 100 percent penalty we'd have to pay.

Different fiscal year for Liberty. They just announced losses for the Braves and blamed it mostly on stadium costs and pursuit of international FA talent such as Maitan and Gutierrez.

[Horsehide Harry]

This is unfortunate. Spending whatever it took to get Robert would have been infinitely more valuable to the organization than giving contracts to guys like Dickey and Colon.

Yet another series of moves by Coppy that show me he is a mediocre GM at best. Rather than signing the best international prospect not named Otani, the Braves spent over $20M on a couple of geriatric pitchers on a team that will be lucky to sniff a .500 record.

Very poor allocation of assets.

I can't believe I'm doing this since I have long been an advocate of re-building without 2017 or the new park in consideration. BUT, I expect the whole Dickey/Colon talent grab has everything to do with illusion building driven by necessity coming from the new stadium and not from any real desire flowing from Coppy to go sign those guys (gotta have 'em).

[Southcack77]

I can't believe I'm doing this since I have long been an advocate of re-building without 2017 or the new park in consideration. BUT, I expect the whole Dickey/Colon talent grab has everything to do with illusion building driven by necessity coming from the new stadium and not from any real desire flowing from Coppy to go sign those guys (gotta have 'em).

I feel like Coppy in his typical weaselly Coppy way has suggested that he was basically forced into trying to field a competitive team and that he did not have unlimited cash resources to buy free agents or prospects.

We ain't going to know for sure.

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

I feel like Coppy in his typical weaselly Coppy way has suggested that he was basically forced into trying to field a competitive team and that he did not have unlimited cash resources to buy free agents or prospects.

We ain't going to know for sure.
It sounds pretty reasonable that he would have been pressured to be not the worst team in baseball

[smootness]

So you don't think the Braves operate on a budget? Or giving those 2 pitchers $20M instead of signing Robert was a better use of that budget? Or do the Braves just not think Robert is a good prospect? Or some combination of all 3?

I think the Braves have to fill out a major league roster, especially this year with a new stadium, with something more than utter crap. And I think they almost certainly have a payroll floor. We had to spend the money on something, and those guys give you potentially decent results, name recognition, some entertainment value, and no risk with the potential to flip them at the deadline. Pretty much the perfect signings in our situation.

I can promise you we're not choosing Colon/Dickey over a super talented 19-year-old if those are the two options. Everything Coppy has done should tell you he values the young talent and is willing to pay to get it.

And sure, it's also possible we don't totally buy into the talent and the risk associated with it.

[Enscheff]

I think the Braves have to fill out a major league roster, especially this year with a new stadium, with something more than utter crap. And I think they almost certainly have a payroll floor. We had to spend the money on something, and those guys give you potentially decent results, name recognition, some entertainment value, and no risk with the potential to flip them at the deadline. Pretty much the perfect signings in our situation.

I can promise you we're not choosing Colon/Dickey over a super talented 19-year-old if those are the two options. Everything Coppy has done should tell you he values the young talent and is willing to pay to get it.

And sure, it's also possible we don't totally buy into the talent and the risk associated with it.

Ahh yes, the team that has routinely taken on risky pitchering prospects, most of whom come with the additional risk of significant injury and/or well established control issues, is suddenly not willing to take the risk that comes with the best international prospect currently available.

You're probably right though, the additions of Colon and Dickey were done in an attempt to add "names" to the roster to cater to the naive fans. It's just too bad they decided to spend the cash on 40 year old players who will help during a losing season instead of a 19 year old player that could impact a minimum of 6 competitive seasons.

Seems like a good allocation of resources to me! Braves way baby!

[Enscheff]

It sounds pretty reasonable that he would have been pressured to be not the worst team in baseball

And how did that work out? Well...I guess they weren't technically the worst team in the game. So...congrats?

[thethe]

Braves already signed the best international prospect since Sano. What more do you want from them?

[Russ2dollas]

Braves already signed the best international prospect since Sano. What more do you want from them?

To sign this guy too. Dickey could be replaced By one of wisler/Blair/Newcombe/wiegel/collementer

[thethe]

To sign this guy too. Dickey could be replaced By one of wisler/Blair/Newcombe/wiegel/collementer

What if the expectation was always he wouldn't be available this j2 period?

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

And how did that work out? Well...I guess they weren't technically the worst team in the game. So...congrats?
I was half sarcastic with that, but I meant this year. Should be pretty safe to project us as mediocre/bad but not atrocious.

Would I rather have Robert than Dickey? Yeah. Are the Braves willing to spend more money than the Padres for him? I dunno.

[Tapate50]

Ahh yes, the team that has routinely taken on risky pitchering prospects, most of whom come with the additional risk of significant injury and/or well established control issues, is suddenly not willing to take the risk that comes with the best international prospect currently available.

You're probably right though, the additions of Colon and Dickey were done in an attempt to add "names" to the roster to cater to the naive fans. It's just too bad they decided to spend the cash on 40 year old players who will help during a losing season instead of a 19 year old player that could impact a minimum of 6 competitive seasons.

Seems like a good allocation of resources to me! Braves way baby!

To hoard assets based on the availability of a guy a year from the J2 deadline if\when he lands on US soil and gets cleared by MLB in time seems like waiting on 00 to hit in roulette (and that's assuming we'd like him enough at the price he will command). If he didn't get get here fast enough Coppy would be damned for holding money back and not using it if he doesn't get cleared. It would be a total waste. Would it be awesome if we got him? Of course... we need bats like that. Also- there is nothing indicating we can't sign him anyway. The Braves may send guys to his showcase and go bonkers. Who knows?

We had to sign some starters. We did. At pretty much market value... I don't think the IFA budget necessarily coincides with the MLB roster budget? I would think funds are earmarked for certain things and stay fairly independent of each other. I'd always assumed this was the case under the total budget, but I don't have any confirmation on it one way or the other.

[thethe]

To hoard assets based on the availability of a guy a year from the J2 deadline if\when he lands on US soil and gets cleared by MLB in time seems like waiting on 00 to hit in roulette (and that's assuming we'd like him enough at the price he will command). If he didn't get get here fast enough Coppy would be damned for holding money back and not using it if he doesn't get cleared. It would be a total waste. Would it be awesome if we got him? Of course... we need bats like that. Also- there is nothing indicating we can't sign him anyway. The Braves may send guys to his showcase and go bonkers. Who knows?

We had to sign some starters. We did. At pretty much market value... I don't think the IFA budget necessarily coincides with the MLB roster budget? I would think funds are earmarked for certain things and stay fairly independent of each other. I'd always assumed this was the case under the total budget, but I don't have any confirmation on it one way or the other.

Coppy sucks. He can't predict the future.

[Preacher]

I don't think you can really fault Coppy, we needed a couple arms and that's what he got, the Braves aren't a team that's going to outspend everyone, I'm guessing they have an INTL budget and they've already hit that. I'm sure Coppy would love to keep spending money on the international guys as they pop up; I'm bet he doesn't have that luxury.

[smootness]

Ahh yes, the team that has routinely taken on risky pitchering prospects, most of whom come with the additional risk of significant injury and/or well established control issues, is suddenly not willing to take the risk that comes with the best international prospect currently available.

You're probably right though, the additions of Colon and Dickey were done in an attempt to add "names" to the roster to cater to the naive fans. It's just too bad they decided to spend the cash on 40 year old players who will help during a losing season instead of a 19 year old player that could impact a minimum of 6 competitive seasons.

Seems like a good allocation of resources to me! Braves way baby!

Your bias is showing.

We added risk because it allowed us to get better talent/higher ceiling guys for less. You can debate whether we should have gotten safer guys with lower ceilings, but I like the approach we took.

It's called scouting. We decided to jump in on some pitchers with issues because of what we believed they were capable of down the line, and we may have decided not to take a multi-million-dollar chance on this kid because of what we believe he is capable of down the line. That is not contradictory.

My point was that Colon and Dickey were two guys we chose to spend our payroll on partially because of their names. It was clearly not that spending on them kept us from spending on a kid on the international market. I believe we spent what Liberty allowed us to spend on the international market, and I believe they gave us a new payroll floor and told us to solve the revenue gap. Choosing to spend less on the current team, putting out a worse product, for the purpose of spending on Robert, was likely not an option.

You can be angry about ownership, that's fine. But it's something we can't change. Again, Coppy has shown again and again that he values young talent with high upside, and he's willing to literally just pay money to get it. He is a smart guy who wants to build for the long haul. You are also a smart guy who wants to build for the long haul. The fact that you continue to just make assumptions and use every little assumption on every little transaction to try to prove that he is below average is hilarious.

[bravesfanMatt]

I still don't get why anyone is equating Dickey/Colon =not signing this guy. That is not the reason. 2017 budget is set colon and dickey are apart of that. I have no idea how much they have allocated for off budget signing. There will be 20 or so teams that will have a reason why they didn't sign him.

[Horsehide Harry]

Again, Liberty has reported the losses which means any current signing will be reported as part of next years losses, if there are any.

The report from the AJC says that the losses stem from stadium costs & international signings (with penalties).

My guess is that the Braves won't sign this kid. But, they could be players if they want. It might mean that they are more limited during the 2017-2018 offseason. But, they could do it.

[bravesfanMatt]

Again, Liberty has reported the losses which means any current signing will be reported as part of next years losses, if there are any.

The report from the AJC says that the losses stem from stadium costs & international signings (with penalties).

My guess is that the Braves won't sign this kid. But, they could be players if they want. It might mean that they are more limited during the 2017-2018 offseason. But, they could do it.

I was thinking about budgeting and stuff... I wonder if the Braves would roll some of 2018 J2 budget to 2017 since they would still be in penalty. Thought behind this is you have 10 million roughly to spend over the next 2 years but can only sign someone for 300K. So say you hold 1.2 for 2017 J2 and 1.2 for 2018 J2.. that is 2.4 million of the 10 you can spend. That leaves you ~7 million you could use up until the June 15th deadline. You would be fudging the books a bit, but in real dollars, it could work..

[Hudson2]

This is the best chance we have to add a possible young stud bat to the system anytime soon. Bc we aren't gonna trade anybody that will bring one back and we will probably be picking middle of the pack next year in the draft. The international rules are changing after July this year so who knows how that will shake out. The Padres aren't ready to compete anytime soon so that should give us more motivation than them to sign this guy being that we will be competing as of next year imo and won't have the chance to draft an impact bat anytime soon. Imo this is a signing we need to make to really cap off the rebuild.

[smootness]

This is the best chance we have to add a possible young stud bat to the system anytime soon. Bc we aren't gonna trade anybody that will bring one back and we will probably be picking middle of the pack next year in the draft. The international rules are changing after July this year so who knows how that will shake out. The Padres aren't ready to compete anytime soon so that should give us more motivation than them to sign this guy being that we will be competing as of next year imo and won't have the chance to draft an impact bat anytime soon. Imo this is a signing we need to make to really cap off the rebuild.

The White Sox are apparently the leaders right now.

[Enscheff]

This is the best chance we have to add a possible young stud bat to the system anytime soon. Bc we aren't gonna trade anybody that will bring one back and we will probably be picking middle of the pack next year in the draft. The international rules are changing after July this year so who knows how that will shake out. The Padres aren't ready to compete anytime soon so that should give us more motivation than them to sign this guy being that we will be competing as of next year imo and won't have the chance to draft an impact bat anytime soon. Imo this is a signing we need to make to really cap off the rebuild.

There's no money left. It was used to sign Colon and Dickey so they could lead the Braves to a 78 win season.

Masterful moves by a genius GM indeed!

[Enscheff]

Looks like the White Sox are the early front runners for Robert:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/03/white-sox-notes-robert-abreu-jones-frazier.html

Hahn is once again showing everyone how to actually have a successful rebuild. I really hope Coppy is taking notes.

[Preacher]

Looks like the White Sox are the early front runners for Robert:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/03/white-sox-notes-robert-abreu-jones-frazier.html

Hahn is once again showing everyone how to actually have a successful rebuild. I really hope Coppy is taking notes.

Coppy doesn't need to take notes.

[Preacher]

There's no money left. It was used to sign Colon and Dickey so they could lead the Braves to a 78 win season.

Masterful moves by a genius GM indeed!

Of course any of the vets acquired can be moved at the deadline for additional pieces, having them in the rotation allows guys like Blair/Wisler more time at AAA to develop and its not the worst thing to have a couple vets on the staff that can mentor the younger pitchers. Its not just about trying to win 78 games.

[smootness]

Looks like the White Sox are the early front runners for Robert:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/03/white-sox-notes-robert-abreu-jones-frazier.html

Hahn is once again showing everyone how to actually have a successful rebuild. I really hope Coppy is taking notes.

Does Hahn need to take notes on how to acquire a bad contract in exchange for a good prospect? Or how to get the top international talent in a decade? This is what I mean by your agenda. You are blinded by your desire to prove that Coppy is a bad GM. I have no idea why you're so bent on proving that, but you clearly are.

I haven't been 100% behind every move he's made, but if you can't acknowledge that he has made a lot of good moves and done a good job overall with the rebuild, then I don't know what to tell you.

Rick Hahn traded two big-time talents under phenomenal contracts for good prospects. Great. And it appears he is prepared to spend a bunch for a Cuban who is considered a good talent. Great. Neither of those is groundbreaking or overly difficult. He has spent the last 4 years producing both a weak major league team and a weak minor league system. What a great GM!

[Enscheff]

Does Hahn need to take notes on how to acquire a bad contract in exchange for a good prospect? Or how to get the top international talent in a decade? This is what I mean by your agenda. You are blinded by your desire to prove that Coppy is a bad GM. I have no idea why you're so bent on proving that, but you clearly are.

I haven't been 100% behind every move he's made, but if you can't acknowledge that he has made a lot of good moves and done a good job overall with the rebuild, then I don't know what to tell you.

Rick Hahn traded two big-time talents under phenomenal contracts for good prospects. Great. And it appears he is prepared to spend a bunch for a Cuban who is considered a good talent. Great. Neither of those is groundbreaking or overly difficult. He has spent the last 4 years producing both a weak major league team and a weak minor league system. What a great GM!

Never said he was a bad GM. I said he was a very mediocre GM, and far from this genius all the Braves homers claim him to be. Mediocre GMs make good moves and bad moves...which is what makes them mediocre.

And no, I seriously doubt Hahn needs Coppy to show him how to take on bad contracts in exchange for prospects. That tactic has been widely used in sports for many years. Hahn is about to acquire top international talent, so again, he doesn't need any knowledge from Coppy (whose top international feather in his cap was probably secured while Wren was still the GM).

[Preacher]

And no, I seriously doubt Hahn needs Coppy to show him how to take on bad contracts in exchange for prospects. That tactic has been widely used in sports for many years. Hahn is about to acquire top international talent, so again, he doesn't need any knowledge from Coppy.

So Hahn is about to do what Coppy has been doing for a couple years, glad to see Hahn catching up.

[bravesfanMatt]

LOL!!! Hahn was promoted GM in 2012 (end of year).. lets see how he is doing..

Wsox's record
2013 63 - 99
2014 73 - 89
2015 76 - 86
2016 78 - 84
2017 Rebuilding

Dude is a freaking genius... I hope Copy is taking notes.

[thethe]

Pretty awesome to have two of the most valuable assets gifted to you to speed up a rebuild.

[thethe]

LOL!!! Hahn was promoted GM in 2012 (end of year).. lets see how he is doing..

Wsox's record
2013 63 - 99
2014 73 - 89
2015 76 - 86
2016 78 - 84
2017 Rebuilding

Dude is a freaking genius... I hope Copy is taking notes.

Has to be nice to be able to fail so uvh and then rebuild.

[Enscheff]

Pretty awesome to have two of the most valuable assets gifted to you to speed up a rebuild.

Just so I'm clear...

He had Eaton and Sale "gifted" to him, yet he didn't have the rest of the crappy roster "gifted" to him as well?

So which is it? Can you two geniuses agree? Was Hahn responsible for the current White Sox roster or not?

[Enscheff]

Has to be nice to be able to fail so uvh and then rebuild.

You can't even comprehend Matt's statement completely contradicts yours? And you still agree with it? Wow...that's new level stupidity, even for you...and that's saying a lot.

[Tapate50]

LOL!!! Hahn was promoted GM in 2012 (end of year).. lets see how he is doing..

Wsox's record
2013 63 - 99
2014 73 - 89
2015 76 - 86
2016 78 - 84
2017 Rebuilding

Dude is a freaking genius... I hope Copy is taking notes.

INDEED.

/insert THE WIRE MEME HERE/

[mqt]

Steps to a successful rebuild like the White Sox:

1) Have two highly valuable players on good contracts

2) Trade those players

Brilliant rebuilding strategy.

[Tapate50]

I hear Rusney Castillo can be had pretty cheap. Does he still count as top IFA talent?

[thethe]

You can't even comprehend Matt's statement completely contradicts yours? And you still agree with it? Wow...that's new level stupidity, even for you...and that's saying a lot.

Hahn failed building a winning roster for a few years and then gets to rebuild. Please explain how that is a contradiction with what I said.

[thethe]

Steps to a successful rebuild like the White Sox:

1) Have two highly valuable players on good contracts

2) Trade those players

Brilliant rebuilding strategy.

After failing to win for a few years. That's a cushy GM job. GREAT GMING!!!

[bravesfanMatt]

Just so I'm clear...

He had Eaton and Sale "gifted" to him, yet he didn't have the rest of the crappy roster "gifted" to him as well?

So which is it? Can you two geniuses agree? Was Hahn responsible for the current White Sox roster or not?

Sale and Eaton were apart of the organization prior to his tenure.

Shields -- he acquired
Abreu - he acquired -- good sign
Lawrie -- he acquired
Melky -- he acquired
Laroche -- yup
Frazier -- yup
avisail G. - that was him
Latos -- yup
rodon -- first draft year.. good job
Quintana - NOPE gifted
Miguel Gonzales -- yes that was him..

Yeah, I can see that he was gifted really 3 great assets and was responsible for the **** team he put around them.

[smootness]

Never said he was a bad GM. I said he was a very mediocre GM, and far from this genius all the Braves homers claim him to be. Mediocre GMs make good moves and bad moves...which is what makes them mediocre.

And no, I seriously doubt Hahn needs Coppy to show him how to take on bad contracts in exchange for prospects. That tactic has been widely used in sports for many years. Hahn is about to acquire top international talent, so again, he doesn't need any knowledge from Coppy (whose top international feather in his cap was probably secured while Wren was still the GM).

You're making my point for me. Coppy has already done these things which you are applauding Hahn for doing.

And every GM makes good moves and bad moves. The difference lies in the ratio. It'd be pretty tough to argue Coppy hasn't made more good than bad and come out ahead overall.

I don't think Coppy is a genius. I do think he's a smart guy (as most GMs are), and I like the way he values upside and the long-term.

ETA: And taking on a bad contract for a prospect one-for-one is hardly ever done in sports, especially in baseball. Sure, expiring contracts are valued in basketball, but that is done for cap space, not in a trade for actual talent.

[thethe]

Sale and Eaton were apart of the organization prior to his tenure.

Shields -- he acquired
Abreu - he acquired -- good sign
Lawrie -- he acquired
Melky -- he acquired
Laroche -- yup
Frazier -- yup
avisail G. - that was him
Latos -- yup
rodon -- first draft year.. good job
Quintana - NOPE gifted
Miguel Gonzales -- yes that was him..

Yeah, I can see that he was gifted really 3 great assets and was responsible for the **** team he put around them.

Great GM!

[zbhargrove]

So Coppy gets dinged for not saving money to sign a prospect that no one knew would post (and still may not) this international period. #Enschefflogic

[smootness]

Hahn gets serious props for extending those guys when he did at the values he did. No question there, and they turned into great assets. I have yet to be amazed by his transactions or personnel decisions.

[bravesfanMatt]

Hahn gets serious props for extending those guys when he did at the values he did. No question there, and they turned into great assets. I have yet to be amazed by his transactions or personnel decisions.

Honestly, I think Hahn is a victim of baseball personally. He had talent to be better, but the results never materialized. Rodon/Sale/Q is a solid 1,2,3.. for whatever reason nothing worked for that team and they were smart enough to rebuild when they did. However, I am happier with Coppy and his decisions at this point.

[Enscheff]

So Coppy gets dinged for not saving money to sign a prospect that no one knew would post (and still may not) this international period. #Enschefflogic

Don't you have a signature to change? Or did the Braves get the Ace your logic dictated they would, and I missed the press release?

[bravesfanMatt]

Don't you have a signature to change? Or did the Braves get the Ace your logic dictated they would, and I missed the press release?

what is the signature?

[Enscheff]

Honestly, I think Hahn is a victim of baseball personally. He had talent to be better, but the results never materialized. Rodon/Sale/Q is a solid 1,2,3.. for whatever reason nothing worked for that team and they were smart enough to rebuild when they did. However, I am happier with Coppy and his decisions at this point.

Betcha the White Sox don't make rebuilding mistakes equivalent to the Markakis signing, watering down Kimbrel's value by attaching BJ to him, watering down Simmons' value by insisting they get a MLB SS in return, trading young assets for Olivera, and then compounding the mistake by trading for Kemp.

I guarantee they don't water down the value of their most valuable assets to clear payroll to acquire MLB guys they don't need like Coppy did. That is where Coppy failed in this rebuild, and now we can watch Hahn avoid the same mistakes and maximize the prospects they get in return for their MLB assets.

I bet they also never get a gift from Dave Stewart to cover up for any shortcomings of their rebuild.

[Enscheff]

what is the signature?

Same thing yours is going to be whenever you make a bet with me that you don't hedge for 3 years.

[bravesfanMatt]

Same thing yours is going to be whenever you make a bet with me that you don't hedge for 3 years.

So his signature is Enscheffmybitch? ok..

[smootness]

Betcha the White Sox don't make rebuilding mistakes equivalent to the Markakis signing, watering down Kimbrel's value by attaching BJ to him, watering down Simmons' value by insisting they get a MLB SS in return, trading young assets for Olivera, and then compounding the mistake by trading for Kemp.

I guarantee they don't water down the value of their most valuable assets to clear payroll to acquire MLB guys they don't need like Coppy did. That is where Coppy failed in this rebuild, and now we can watch Hahn avoid the same mistakes and maximize the prospects they get in return for their MLB assets.

I bet they also never get a gift from Dave Stewart to cover up for any shortcomings of their rebuild.

You sure are basing your love of the White Sox rebuild on a whole lot of bets and assumptions.

Using your logic, though, is every single major league piece they keep and spend money on keeping them from maximizing the value of the rebuild? So any international talent that doesn't sign with them, or any draft pick they fail to acquire, or any trade they don't make, means Hahn is a mediocre GM and the rebuild is simply plugging along like any other would. This is a video game, where there is no context and there are no negative repercussions, correct?

By the way, the White Sox are the leaders for Robert if he moves into the next signing period, but it's been said they will also consider blowing past their pool in this period to sign him as well. So please tell me, if they are contemplating blowing past their pool after the fact for one guy (someone who is certainly a top international talent but not some kind of generational star), then how is their decision not to go ahead and blow past it in July not a mistake?

[zbhargrove]

Don't you have a signature to change? Or did the Braves get the Ace your logic dictated they would, and I missed the press release?

1. You've never told me the signature you want me to change it to. I always live up to my bets so you can stop worrying.

2. The season hasn't started yet

3. Typical you to not address the actual issue brought up

Will they trade for one at this point? Likely not, but I'm not changing my signature until I have to... why would I?

[zbhargrove]

Same thing yours is going to be whenever you make a bet with me that you don't hedge for 3 years.

When have I hedged anything? The terms were explicitly by the start of the season. Now do you not understand how to count years?

[bravesfanMatt]

When have I hedged anything? The terms were explicitly by the start of the season. Now do you not understand how to count years?

that was to me because I set stipulations on a bet.. something like if someone doesn't pitch x number of innings, then the bet is voided OR extended. He didn't like adding legitimate terms to a bet so he cried and I just said forget it.

[zbhargrove]

that was to me because I set stipulations on a bet.. something like if someone doesn't pitch x number of innings, then the bet is voided OR extended. He didn't like adding legitimate terms to a bet so he cried and I just said forget it.

He likes to cry and he's an a$$, but for some reason, I kinda like the guy

[zbhargrove]

Ask and you shall receive Enscheff... you had a chance to give me the signature you wanted, but I think I'll stick with the one I just made.

[Southcack77]

Ahh yes, the team that has routinely taken on risky pitchering prospects, most of whom come with the additional risk of significant injury and/or well established control issues, is suddenly not willing to take the risk that comes with the best international prospect currently available.

You're probably right though, the additions of Colon and Dickey were done in an attempt to add "names" to the roster to cater to the naive fans. It's just too bad they decided to spend the cash on 40 year old players who will help during a losing season instead of a 19 year old player that could impact a minimum of 6 competitive seasons.

Seems like a good allocation of resources to me! Braves way baby!

The braves just spent a ton of money in the international market and have a significant number of high upside international hitters as a result.

This guy isn't even cleared yet and they don't know if he'll sign yet. Jumping the gun, I think.

[thethe]

The braves just spent a ton of money in the international market and have a significant number of high upside international hitters as a result.

This guy isn't even cleared yet and they don't know if he'll sign yet. Jumping the gun, I think.

We all see what's happening here...

[Horsehide Harry]

Coppy doesn't need to take notes.

True because if the current rebuild doesn't work, he won't get another chance.

[smootness]

True because if the current rebuild doesn't work, he won't get another chance.

Of course not.

[Preacher]

True because if the current rebuild doesn't work, he won't get another chance.

no doubt there.

[zbhargrove]

So sounds like he's about to be declared eligible. Astros, Reds, Cards all having private workouts with him. Pads, White Sox and Athletics are also expected to have workouts. Doesn't even sound like we have any interest him. This is a mistake. We should go hard after this guy. We have ZERO elite outfield talent anywhere close.

[mqt]

So sounds like he's about to be declared eligible. Astros, Reds, Cards all having private workouts with him. Pads, White Sox and Athletics are also expected to have workouts. Doesn't even sound like we have any interest him. This is a mistake. We should go hard after this guy. We have ZERO elite outfield talent anywhere close.

Yeah, I don't see how we'd not at least be doing our due diligence on him. The market seems to have adjusted on Cuba over the past year, so I wouldn't even think the bidding will get that serious. It's strange for a team that has spent the last 2 years doing everything possible to add talent to the pipeline to just sit on their thumbs on this.

[Enscheff]

So sounds like he's about to be declared eligible. Astros, Reds, Cards all having private workouts with him. Pads, White Sox and Athletics are also expected to have workouts. Doesn't even sound like we have any interest him. This is a mistake. We should go hard after this guy. We have ZERO elite outfield talent anywhere close.

The Braves may not have the money to sign Robert, but at least they have Kemp, Colon, Dickey and Garcia sucking up $40M+ this season to guide the team to a 4th place finish!

In The Genius we trust!

[bravesfanMatt]

there is going to be what 20ish teams that will not get this kid because they decided he wasn't worth X amount of dollars, but it is much more fun to make board assumptions to make yourself look like an ass and idiot.. So what is the saying.. Derp along..

[percival]

The Braves may not have the money to sign Robert, but at least they have Kemp, Colon, Dickey and Garcia sucking up $40M+ this season to guide the team to a 4th place finish!

In The Genius we trust!

Good grief! Doesn't MENSA have a sh!tty softball team you could go root for...

[striker42]

It's not just about not having the money this year. The Braves aren't a team with a payroll that can dump a HUGE amount of money into a guy longterm only to have him bust. We got burned with Olivera and will be paying for that mistake for a very long time. It's just a much bigger risk for us than for a team like the Dodgers.

Amassing a large amount of minor league talent, graduating it, extending players who are successful, and trading from the minor league depth to fill positions of weakness is the path we have to take. It's not sexy, it's not quick, but considering we're going to operate with payroll restrictions now and in the future, it's what we have to do.

[Enscheff]

Good grief! Doesn't MENSA have a sh!tty softball team you could go root for...

I'm sorry criticizing the FO offends you so much. Kudos to you for climbing out from under Coppy's desk long enough to make that post though. Now wipe off your chin and get back under there.

[zbhargrove]

It's not just about not having the money this year. The Braves aren't a team with a payroll that can dump a HUGE amount of money into a guy longterm only to have him bust. We got burned with Olivera and will be paying for that mistake for a very long time. It's just a much bigger risk for us than for a team like the Dodgers.

Amassing a large amount of minor league talent, graduating it, extending players who are successful, and trading from the minor league depth to fill positions of weakness is the path we have to take. It's not sexy, it's not quick, but considering we're going to operate with payroll restrictions now and in the future, it's what we have to do.

He's 19, he would start as a minor leaguer as a legit prospect and would be an easy first round draft pick. This isn't comparable to Olivera in the least possible sense.

[bravesfanMatt]

I'm sorry criticizing the FO offends you so much. Kudos to you for climbing out from under Coppy's desk long enough to make that post though. Now wipe off your chin and get back under there.

Now can he borrow your towel that you used after you finished off the White Sox GM

[Deester11]

Now can he borrow your towel that you used after you finished off the White Sox GM
Brutality!

[percival]

I'm sorry criticizing the FO offends you so much. Kudos to you for climbing out from under Coppy's desk long enough to make that post though. Now wipe off your chin and get back under there.

Sorry, I'm too busy working and taking care of other stuff to worry about that; I could care less about your opinions on the current FO and their decisions.
I just get tired of coming on here for a few minutes to catch up on Braves news and see you jump into every thread to tell EVERYONE else on this board how F'n smart you think you are and how WE are all a bunch of stupid morons.
You got a lot of nerve and a sh!tty attitude (and likely a very low sense of self worth) to do that...day...after...day...after...day.
From what I can see, I'm not the only one with that opinion either.
Come on here and enjoy the board, be civil and show some respect to the opinions of others like the rest of us, or find somewhere else to go spew your self-serving crap.

[Garmel]

Somebody had to say it.

[Enscheff]

He's 19, he would start as a minor leaguer as a legit prospect and would be an easy first round draft pick. This isn't comparable to Olivera in the least possible sense.

He will probably be a Top ~25 prospect the moment he signs.

[Coach_Chris]

I would hope we at least make an offer.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/top-cuban-prospect-luis-robert-declared-an-mlb-free-agent-with-white-sox-ties/amp/

[Enscheff]

He isn't a pitcher with injury concerns, so the Braves are uninterested.

[Hudson2]

It would be amazing to add say Robert and Beck/Lewis to the minors. Or if we signed Robert I wouldn't be to upset about us taking a pitcher at 5.

[smootness]

Remember how the White Sox are prepared to blow past their pool for one guy after not doing so last summer? Sub-optimal. They sure look like stone cold geniuses.

[Hudson2]

If Quintana can right the ship and bring them a haul back then they could have rebuilt better than us and in a shorter time frame. Crazy.

[smootness]

If Quintana can right the ship and bring them a haul back then they could have rebuilt better than us and in a shorter time frame. Crazy.

Whether it would be a better rebuild is absolutely up for debate, seeing as most publications have us as a clear #1 and don't have the White Sox currently in even the top 3 or 4. But there is absolutely no doubt they started with better assets to give up.

[Hudson2]

Eaton and Sale are both really good. But JUp, Heyward, Kimbrel, and Simmons should have gotten us more top flight talent imo than we got back. We went for quantity over quality for the most part.

[smootness]

Eaton and Sale are both really good. But JUp, Heyward, Kimbrel, and Simmons should have gotten us more top flight talent imo than we got back. We went for quantity over quality for the most part.

No, we didn't. One year of Upton, one year of Heyward, a closer, and a guy with a very limited offensive ceiling are not prime trade pieces. I won't disagree that we potentially could have done better, especially in the Simmons deal, but we also could have done worse overall than getting guys like Fried, Gohara, Swanson, Inciarte, etc. through those moves.

Multiple cheap years of Chris Sale, multiple cheap years of Adam Eaton, and multiple cheap years of Jose Quintana is a way better place to start, it's not even a debate. Especially since the White Sox system is incredibly top heavy, with their top several pieces carrying the system. And the only way to get top pieces like that, generally speaking, is if you have legitimately prime assets to give away. We didn't.

[Hudson2]

I never said we had better talent than the Sox did to trade. I said we should have gotten more back. And when you say a closer it just happened to be the best one in baseball that was controlled for several years.

[bravesfanMatt]

The White sox also gambled on quality with major concerns. Giolito/Lopez/Kopech all have major control issues and look to be trending in the wrong direction since the trade. If those guys fail, then you basically traded Sale and Eaton for some scraps and Moncada.

[Preacher]

Prospects are also a crap shoot --- even the premium ones, look at how Buxton is performing with the Twins and he was a CAN'T MISS guy a couple years ago.

The point is, going after quantity gives you some extra lottery tickets. You look at the Upton trade and Mallex Smith/Dustin Peterson have both panned out pretty well so far, Peterson had a strong season last year and we flipped Mallex for Gohara.

I don't think theres a right or wrong answer in quantity/quality.... if you scout correctly, develop those players and get a little luck both can work just fine.

[smootness]

I never said we had better talent than the Sox did to trade. I said we should have gotten more back. And when you say a closer it just happened to be the best one in baseball that was controlled for several years.

Right, but it's still a closer. Even the best in the game has nowhere near the value of a Sale or a Quintana.

And you did compare our talent that we received back to the talent the Sox received back, so it seems legitimate to compare the talent given up as well.

[Enscheff]

Whether it would be a better rebuild is absolutely up for debate, seeing as most publications have us as a clear #1 and don't have the White Sox currently in even the top 3 or 4. But there is absolutely no doubt they started with better assets to give up.

Same old stupid argument defending the Braves FO. Fact of the matter is the Braves watered down the returns for guys like Kimbrel and Simmons. The White Sox didn't water down their returns for Eaton and Sale.

Regardless of who had better assets to trade, or how much anyone likes any of the prospects either team got, the White Sox are rebuilding correctly because they are maximizing the possible future return of their present day assets. The Braves failed to do that, as has been hashed out several times by several posters.

In something with as much luck involved as scouting prospects you rate the process, not the results. It is clear many here do not grasp that concept.

[sturg33]

Right, but it's still a closer. Even the best in the game has nowhere near the value of a Sale or a Quintana.

.

Um, did you see what Miller, Chapman, and Kimbrel all got back in their trades?

[bravesfanMatt]

Um, did you see what Miller, Chapman, and Kimbrel all got back in their trades?

I would say the Red Sox massively over paying for Kimbrell started the closer market inflation.

[smootness]

Same old stupid argument defending the Braves FO. Fact of the matter is the Braves watered down the returns for guys like Kimbrel and Simmons. The White Sox didn't water down their returns for Eaton and Sale.

Regardless of who had better assets to trade, or how much anyone likes any of the prospects either team got, the White Sox are rebuilding correctly because they are maximizing the possible future return of their present day assets. The Braves failed to do that, as has been hashed out several times by several posters.

In something with as much luck involved as scouting prospects you rate the process, not the results. It is clear many here do not grasp that concept.

Haha ok.

Any attempt to compare the returns of two teams that starts with 'regardless of who had better assets to trade' can be thrown out.

But please, share with me what you think a non-watered down return for Heyward or Upton looks like.

[Enscheff]

Haha ok.

Any attempt to compare the returns of two teams that starts with 'regardless of who had better assets to trade' can be thrown out.

But please, share with me what you think a non-watered down return for Heyward or Upton looks like.

I will quote your sentence again in hopes you can start to understand the nuance of this discussion:

"Any attempt to compare the returns of two teams"

I literally said exactly this, "In something with as much luck involved as scouting prospects you rate the process, not the results". I am not comparing the returns, I am comparing the processes used by both teams.

Now look, I understand you are completely incapable of understanding what the part in bold means. I get that you are a little too stupid to grasp what "rating the process" means. Maybe an example I would use to explain it to a 9 year old would help?

You are offered a choice between 2 games of chance. Game 1 flips a coin 10 times, each flip awards your $1 for heads, and $20 for tails. Game 2 simply awards you $10 every time you flip the coin, for a total of $100.

The absolutely, unarguably, 100% guarnteed correct decision is to play Game 1. It has an expected return of $105, which is greater than the return of Game 2. No matter how Game 1 ultimately plays out, the process that led you to select Game 1 was correct. If every decision you make follows the correct process, eventually you will be better off than someone who consistently uses the wrong process.

Again, I know assimilating new knowledge is nearly impossible for you, but I hope it helps you understand what "rating the process" means. Probably not, oh well, I'm not very good at teaching concepts to simpletons.

[smootness]

I will quote your sentence again in hopes you can start to understand the nuance of this discussion:

"Any attempt to compare the returns of two teams"

I literally said exactly this, "In something with as much luck involved as scouting prospects you rate the process, not the results". I am not comparing the returns, I am comparing the processes used by both teams.

Now look, I understand you are completely incapable of understanding what the part in bold means. I get that you are a little too stupid to grasp what "rating the process" means. Maybe an example I would use to explain it to a 9 year old would help?

You are offered a choice between 2 games of chance. Game 1 flips a coin 10 times, each flip awards your $1 for heads, and $20 for tails. Game 2 simply awards you $10 every time you flip the coin, for a total of $100.

The absolutely, unarguably, 100% guarnteed correct decision is to play Game 1. It has an expected return of $105, which is greater than the return of Game 2. No matter how Game 1 ultimately plays out, the process that led you to select Game 1 was correct. If every decision you make follows the correct process, eventually you will be better off than someone who consistently uses the wrong process.

Again, I know assimilating new knowledge is nearly impossible for you, but I hope it helps you understand what "rating the process" means. Probably not, oh well, I'm not very good at teaching concepts to simpletons.

Hurr durr White Sox gud

I understood your first post. You misunderstood mine. An evaluation of the process of trades has to evaluate the return. Unless you think trading Chris Sale for Emilio Bonifacio might somehow have followed the right process.

You think the White Sox did a better job because their returns were great. That is obvious. You also thought the White Sox might have the best farm system in baseball. Because you don't know what you're talking about.

[smootness]

The Braves:
- have gotten a higher number of pitchers in return for trades
- have focused more on pitching at the top of drafts
- got mostly even value overall in trades
- haven't yet constructed a winner

These are the reasons you've given for Coppy being below average.


The White Sox:
- have received 75% pitching in return for their trades
- have focused primarily on pitching at the top of drafts
- received even value back in trades
- couldn't build a winner around some great players for several years

These things have led you to believe that they are doing things perfectly.


And we're all the morons. Despite the fact that the people whose job is to evaluate prospects, trades involving prospects, and farm system construction have been basically unanimous in the belief that the Braves have done a great job building theirs. And despite the fact that the only thing you base any evaluation of the White Sox on are two trades in which they gave away huge assets, one in which they gave up a very valuable hitter for two pitchers.

[Enscheff]

You really do twist logic around in your head haha.

The White Sox have been rebuilding for about 4 months. We are discussing the process of the White Sox rebuild vs the process of the Braves rebuild, so most of the "points" you listed about them fall outside the time frame of the rebuild, and are irrelevant (a common theme for most "facts" you try to use to defend your positions).

I have never said the White Sox FO was amazing. I said they have orchestrated the first stages of their rebuild flawlessly, unlike the Braves. Claiming they have piloted the first 4 months of a rebuild perfectly is NOT equivalent to saying they are an amazing FO, or that they will be able to build a winner. It is unsurprising you are unable to distinguish those not-so-subtle facts though.

Did the White Sox water down the value of Sale by attaching a bad contract to him? No, they maximized the return for him.

Did the White Sox water down the value of Eaton by insisting the Nats send a crappy MLB OFer in return to replace him? No.

Did the White Sox go out and sign their version of Markakis for $44M to play for a losing team? No, they will likely use that money to sign Robert.

Is it really that hard for you to see that the White Sox are using a better process in the early stage of their rebuild? No matter how any of the prospects either team got in return ultimately performed, the White Sox are using a far superior process.

It's fine though. You simply can't grasp the concept of "process vs results". Hell, you can't even determine which facts are pertinent to the discussion at hand. Your lack of mental capacity is alarmingly. Did you have to have someone turn your PC on so you could visit these forums?

[smootness]

So drafts that don't fall clearly into a 'rebuild' phase are different than other drafts? Because they are clearly targeting pitching just as much as the Braves have been.

Your entire discussion about them conducting the initial phase of the rebuild is about literally two trades, two trades in which they received no better than equal value in return because they had two legitimately great assets to trade.

I will point this out again and see if you'll actually answer it this time - you like to talk about the Braves being stupid to pay guys at the major league level rather than leaving that money just in case Robert came available before the next international signing period. Yet the White Sox, who are prepared to completely blow through their international pool for Robert, did not do so last July when they could have, meaning they missed on plenty of talent. So they are making the decision now that not going after more talent then was simply a waste. How on earth can you say that is a good strategy yet kill the Braves for playing it the way they did?

[Enscheff]

So drafts that don't fall clearly into a 'rebuild' phase are different than other drafts? Because they are clearly targeting pitching just as much as the Braves have been.

Your entire discussion about them conducting the initial phase of the rebuild is about literally two trades, two trades in which they received no better than equal value in return because they had two legitimately great assets to trade.

I will point this out again and see if you'll actually answer it this time - you like to talk about the Braves being stupid to pay guys at the major league level rather than leaving that money just in case Robert came available before the next international signing period. Yet the White Sox, who are prepared to completely blow through their international pool for Robert, did not do so last July when they could have, meaning they missed on plenty of talent. So they are making the decision now that not going after more talent then was simply a waste. How on earth can you say that is a good strategy yet kill the Braves for playing it the way they did?

Go look at a calendar. It lists months in chronological order. You will need to be armed with this knowledge to understand what I am about to write.

Got your calendar? Great!

The Braves blew their budget on July 2nd. Almost all of the major international talent was gone by the first week of July.

The White Sox were still trying to contend in July. The MLB baseball season ends at the end of October. If you look at that handy calendar, you will see that October is after July.

Do you know what that means? I'll help you connect the dots...

The Braves were already rebuilding last July, the White Sox were not. By the time the White Sox decided to blow it up, there wasn't much international talent left to sign.

Again, you are bringing up points completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[percival]

I will quote your sentence again in hopes you can start to understand the nuance of this discussion:

"Any attempt to compare the returns of two teams"

I literally said exactly this, "In something with as much luck involved as scouting prospects you rate the process, not the results". I am not comparing the returns, I am comparing the processes used by both teams.

Now look, I understand you are completely incapable of understanding what the part in bold means. I get that you are a little too stupid to grasp what "rating the process" means. Maybe an example I would use to explain it to a 9 year old would help?

You are offered a choice between 2 games of chance. Game 1 flips a coin 10 times, each flip awards your $1 for heads, and $20 for tails. Game 2 simply awards you $10 every time you flip the coin, for a total of $100.

The absolutely, unarguably, 100% guarnteed correct decision is to play Game 1. It has an expected return of $105, which is greater than the return of Game 2. No matter how Game 1 ultimately plays out, the process that led you to select Game 1 was correct. If every decision you make follows the correct process, eventually you will be better off than someone who consistently uses the wrong process.

Again, I know assimilating new knowledge is nearly impossible for you, but I hope it helps you understand what "rating the process" means. Probably not, oh well, I'm not very good at teaching concepts to simpletons.

You REALLY need to be in the company of smarter people than the likes of those on this board of simpletons. Perhaps your beloved WHITE SOX and their SUPERIOR PROCESS (that would be a methodology of going about things such as prospect mining, which is ALMOST, but not nearly so SUPERIOR as yourself) would have such an intelligent message board that could entice you to visit there...(cue 7 year old type locker room response from potential MENSA president in 3, 2, 1...)

[Enscheff]

You REALLY need to be in the company of smarter people than the likes of those on this board of simpletons. Perhaps your beloved WHITE SOX and their SUPERIOR PROCESS (that would be a methodology of going about things such as prospect mining, which is ALMOST, but not nearly so SUPERIOR as yourself) would have such an intelligent message board that could entice you to visit there...(cue 7 year old type locker room response from potential MENSA president in 3, 2, 1...)

You have 8 posts. Over half of them are bitching at me.

Are you an internet stalker? Creepy!

[bravesfanMatt]

You have 8 posts. Over half of them are bitching at me.

Are you an internet stalker? Creepy!

are you tracking his posts? or just remember each one?

[Enscheff]

are you tracking his posts? or just remember each one?

Maybe I'm also an internet stalker...

Double creepy!

[bravesfanMatt]

Maybe I'm also an internet stalker...

Double creepy!

But if you stalk each other would you just go in circles?

[thewupk]

But if you stalk each other would you just go in circles?

isn't that what's happening?

[Southcack77]

You really do twist logic around in your head haha.

The White Sox have been rebuilding for about 4 months. We are discussing the process of the White Sox rebuild vs the process of the Braves rebuild, so most of the "points" you listed about them fall outside the time frame of the rebuild, and are irrelevant (a common theme for most "facts" you try to use to defend your positions).

I have never said the White Sox FO was amazing. I said they have orchestrated the first stages of their rebuild flawlessly, unlike the Braves. Claiming they have piloted the first 4 months of a rebuild perfectly is NOT equivalent to saying they are an amazing FO, or that they will be able to build a winner. It is unsurprising you are unable to distinguish those not-so-subtle facts though.

Did the White Sox water down the value of Sale by attaching a bad contract to him? No, they maximized the return for him.

Did the White Sox water down the value of Eaton by insisting the Nats send a crappy MLB OFer in return to replace him? No.

Did the White Sox go out and sign their version of Markakis for $44M to play for a losing team? No, they will likely use that money to sign Robert.

Is it really that hard for you to see that the White Sox are using a better process in the early stage of their rebuild? No matter how any of the prospects either team got in return ultimately performed, the White Sox are using a far superior process.

It's fine though. You simply can't grasp the concept of "process vs results". Hell, you can't even determine which facts are pertinent to the discussion at hand. Your lack of mental capacity is alarmingly. Did you have to have someone turn your PC on so you could visit these forums?


The White Sox didn't have an player making 16 million for the next three years that they were otherwise likely to cut. Who can say what they would have done if they had.

There is no evidence that taking Aybar's salary of the Angels books in any way affected the return on the Simmons deal. You just assume that it did.

You are impressed with the White Sox because they got back Moncado and some questionable top 100 pitching prospects who are formerly well thought of.

Of course, that was never an option for Atlanta because they didn't have an asset good enough to get back Moncado. The Red Sox laughed their asses off when Atlanta proposed Moncado in a possible Teheran trade and outside of Freddie Freeman, Teheran is the only asset the Braves have had in recent memory that could possibly have landed such a return.

The White Sox certainly got back plenty of top 100 pitching prospects with concerns in the two deals. But all of a sudden the process of getting back a top 100 pitcher with concerns is really good in the White Sox context, but obviously stupid in the Braves context because of ... well some bull**** you pulled out of your ass that you tried to make sound better by putting an extra dash of arrogance into it.

I like it though. Its a good read.

[percival]

I'm sure it further flatters you to think so, but I'm no stalker...just another simpleton Braves fan who is tired of your smug drivel.
I don't post much, but I do enjoy reading the board when I have some free time. For a good while now I find the board cluttered with page after page of the same old crap from you.

I've got better things to do than engage you further, so I'll leave you with this.

A suggestion that if the company here and the nature of the conversation is so far beneath you, maybe there's somewhere else on the world wide web that is more worthy of your time.
I can't see why a man of your intelligence could waste that gift by spending all his time on an internet message board talking about a game as simple as baseball.

[smootness]

The White Sox didn't have an player making 16 million for the next three years that they were otherwise likely to cut. Who can say what they would have done if they had.

There is no evidence that taking Aybar's salary of the Angels books in any way affected the return on the Simmons deal. You just assume that it did.

You are impressed with the White Sox because they got back Moncado and some questionable top 100 pitching prospects who are formerly well thought of.

Of course, that was never an option for Atlanta because they didn't have an asset good enough to get back Moncado. The Red Sox laughed their asses off when Atlanta proposed Moncado in a possible Teheran trade and outside of Freddie Freeman, Teheran is the only asset the Braves have had in recent memory that could possibly have landed such a return.

The White Sox certainly got back plenty of top 100 pitching prospects with concerns in the two deals. But all of a sudden the process of getting back a top 100 pitcher with concerns is really good in the White Sox context, but obviously stupid in the Braves context because of ... well some bull**** you pulled out of your ass that you tried to make sound better by putting an extra dash of arrogance into it.

I like it though. Its a good read.

All of this. You summarized my thoughts better than I ever have.

[Deester11]

I'm sure it further flatters you to think so, but I'm no stalker...just another simpleton Braves fan who is tired of your smug drivel.
I don't post much, but I do enjoy reading the board when I have some free time. For a good while now I find the board cluttered with page after page of the same old crap from you.

I've got better things to do than engage you further, so I'll leave you with this.

A suggestion that if the company here and the nature of the conversation is so far beneath you, maybe there's somewhere else on the world wide web that is more worthy of your time.
I can't see why a man of your intelligence could waste that gift by spending all his time on an internet message board talking about a game as simple as baseball.
The Enscheff intellect is dizzying for sure.

[smootness]

Go look at a calendar. It lists months in chronological order. You will need to be armed with this knowledge to understand what I am about to write.

Got your calendar? Great!

The Braves blew their budget on July 2nd. Almost all of the major international talent was gone by the first week of July.

The White Sox were still trying to contend in July. The MLB baseball season ends at the end of October. If you look at that handy calendar, you will see that October is after July.

Do you know what that means? I'll help you connect the dots...

The Braves were already rebuilding last July, the White Sox were not. By the time the White Sox decided to blow it up, there wasn't much international talent left to sign.

Again, you are bringing up points completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

So the White Sox believed that their 40-40 record on July 1 last year, with a lineup where exactly two people OPS'd at .800 and none over .820, was good enough to be a contender? After not winning more than 72 games in any of the 3 years prior?

If so, that really only proves them to be stupid. After all, they delayed the rebuild under the very stupid belief that they could contend and cost themselves a shot at serious young talent on the international market. Sub-optimal move fo sho. Rich Hahn is a true genius.

[Russ2dollas]

The white sox traded guys with many years of control. We did that with Simba, but his offensive issues were the bring down. We did that with Kimbrel and we brought him down with BJ. I agree the Kimbrel deal was a mistake.

1 year of Sale wasn't going to get that deal. And Sale is >>>>>> than JUp or Heyward.

[Southcack77]

So the White Sox believed that their 40-40 record on July 1 last year, with a lineup where exactly two people OPS'd at .800 and none over .820, was good enough to be a contender? After not winning more than 72 games in any of the 3 years prior?

If so, that really only proves them to be stupid. After all, they delayed the rebuild under the very stupid belief that they could contend and cost themselves a shot at serious young talent on the international market. Sub-optimal move fo sho. Rich Hahn is a true genius.

I think its interesting the White Sox couldn't assemble a winning roster or even conceive of a winning roster that could have been constructed around some of the best contracts in baseball.

Rather than continue trying, they decided on an impromptu rebuild. Good gig if you can get it.

[Enscheff]

So the White Sox believed that their 40-40 record on July 1 last year, with a lineup where exactly two people OPS'd at .800 and none over .820, was good enough to be a contender? After not winning more than 72 games in any of the 3 years prior?

If so, that really only proves them to be stupid. After all, they delayed the rebuild under the very stupid belief that they could contend and cost themselves a shot at serious young talent on the international market. Sub-optimal move fo sho. Rich Hahn is a true genius.

pop quiz, did I say Hahn is a genius, or did I say they have executed the first 4 months of a rebuild flawlessly.

And never in the history of baseball has a team sitting at 40-40 gave up and went for a rebuild. To suggest a team would do that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. It is a clv level moronic idea.

Can you just once use points that are actually true and relevant? Just one time?

[smootness]

pop quiz, did I say Hahn is a genius, or did I say they have executed the first 4 months of a rebuild flawlessly.

And never in the history of baseball has a team sitting at 40-40 gave up and went for a rebuild. To suggest a team would do that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. It is a clv level moronic idea.

Can you just once use points that are actually true and relevant? Just one time?

I'm pretty confident you've said Rick Hahn is a genius.

And everyone here is well aware that if the Braves had won no more than 72 games 3 years in a row and suddenly found themselves all the way at 40-40 with a team not build to contend, you would rip them for thinking they were actually contending and not making every effort to build for the future.

[Enscheff]

I'm pretty confident you've said Rick Hahn is a genius.

And everyone here is well aware that if the Braves had won no more than 72 games 3 years in a row and suddenly found themselves all the way at 40-40 with a team not build to contend, you would rip them for thinking they were actually contending and not making every effort to build for the future.

Yeah, no. Just because you are "confident" in something doesn't make it fact.

This is a case of you not understanding what I've actually said. Not surprising in the least to be honest.

[smootness]

Yeah, no. Just because you are "confident" in something doesn't make it fact.

This is a case of you not understanding what I've actually said. Not surprising in the least to be honest.

You really that dense, dawg?

[Southcack77]

pop quiz, did I say Hahn is a genius, or did I say they have executed the first 4 months of a rebuild flawlessly.

And never in the history of baseball has a team sitting at 40-40 gave up and went for a rebuild. To suggest a team would do that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. It is a clv level moronic idea.

Can you just once use points that are actually true and relevant? Just one time?

It's not even unprecedented in White Sox history.

[mqt]

http://www.ajc.com/sports/baseball/braves-have-interest-cuban-outfielder-luis-robert/v04Lm5JsTaUKlbDXlcNzgO/

Well, that's a start at least.

[thethe]

Fantastic. Would be a great piece to add to the future juggernaut.

[smootness]

I'm sure we're interested, of course Coppy will want him. The question is whether we have the money, and considering that Liberty mentioned the international signings as one of the reason we reported losses last year, I'd say it's unlikely.

[mqt]

Fantastic. Would be a great piece to add to the future juggernaut.

I'm not getting my hopes up. It seems like our "interest" is similar to our "interest" in drafting Hunter Greene or trading for Mike Trout.

[bravesfanMatt]

I am interested in signing him for my rec league softball. But unless he plays for naty light. Won't happen either.

[Anthony J. Pierzynski]

I am interested in signing him for my rec league softball. But unless he plays for naty light. Won't happen either.

Make it Mich Ultra and you've got yourself a cleanup hitter.

[Enscheff]

White Sox got Robert for a $25M bonus plus another $25M in luxury tax. From what I have read, he should slot in their system right behind Kopech (#13), and ahead of Lopez (#39). In the Braves' system, that translates to him being about dead even with Maitan.

So $50M for another Maitan-level prospect? That's about the surplus value of a Top 25 position player prospect. The Braves weren't even mentioned as realistic suitors. We know they had to get approval from ownership to add Matt Adams' $2M salary, so money is obviously tight for the Braves.

Did the Olivera disaster sour them on all Cuban talent?

[smootness]

White Sox got Robert for a $25M bonus plus another $25M in luxury tax. From what I have read, he should slot in their system right behind Kopech (#13), and ahead of Lopez (#39). In the Braves' system, that translates to him being about dead even with Maitan.

So $50M for another Maitan-level prospect? That's about the surplus value of a Top 25 position player prospect. The Braves weren't even mentioned as realistic suitors. We know they had to get approval from ownership to add Matt Adams' $2M salary, so money is obviously tight for the Braves.

Did the Olivera disaster sour them on all Cuban talent?

I think they just didn't have the money to spend on this one. And he may be a Maitan-level prospect currently, but he is 3 years older and doesn't have the same ceiling. He wouldn't have challenged Maitan to be the top international prospect.

And it remains true that the White Sox just blew their pool on one guy. They really missed an opportunity to add a lot more talent during the primary signing window.

[Southcack77]

I think they just didn't have the money to spend on this one. And he may be a Maitan-level prospect currently, but he is 3 years older and doesn't have the same ceiling. He wouldn't have challenged Maitan to be the top international prospect.

And it remains true that the White Sox just blew their pool on one guy. They really missed an opportunity to add a lot more talent during the primary signing window.

I think Law put a mid or late first round grade on him had he been in the amateur draft. That's a lot of cash for that kind of guy.

[Enscheff]

I think Law put a mid or late first round grade on him had he been in the amateur draft. That's a lot of cash for that kind of guy.

Everything I have read touts Robert as the best non-Otani international prospect alive. He is a solid 55 FV.

I agree that $50M is a steep price though. Just goes to show how much of a bargain MLB teams are getting through the draft. Imagine how much money would be going to US teenagers if teams just bid on them.

[Southcack77]

Everything I have read touts Robert as the best non-Otani international prospect alive. He is a solid 55 FV.

I agree that $50M is a steep price though. Just goes to show how much of a bargain MLB teams are getting through the draft. Imagine how much money would be going to US teenagers if teams just bid on them.

I did read pipeline saying that so law may be an extreme outlier.

[Russ2dollas]

Everything I have read touts Robert as the best non-Otani international prospect alive. He is a solid 55 FV.

I agree that $50M is a steep price though. Just goes to show how much of a bargain MLB teams are getting through the draft. Imagine how much money would be going to US teenagers if teams just bid on them.

I think it was pipeline or BP that had him one spot over Maitan and said he'd be a spot over Maitan in the top 100. That is a very good prospect but waaaaay more than Maitan cost.

Klaw seems to feel that there is a lot of question on his hit tool. Everyone says he's a legit athlete, doesn't look that young w/ the muscle definition and legit power. But if he can't hit to get to it.... Klaw also references how bad Cubans have been. Klaw also seems to me much lower on Moncada than most everyone else.

[bravesfanMatt]

I think it was pipeline or BP that had him one spot over Maitan and said he'd be a spot over Maitan in the top 100. That is a very good prospect but waaaaay more than Maitan cost.

Klaw seems to feel that there is a lot of question on his hit tool. Everyone says he's a legit athlete, doesn't look that young w/ the muscle definition and legit power. But if he can't hit to get to it.... Klaw also references how bad Cubans have been. Klaw also seems to me much lower on Moncada than most everyone else.

50 Million is way to steep to take a chance on a prospect IMO.. I guess he is the last of his kind though.. by June 15th there will be no more signings like his. I still wonder if the new CBA helped or hurt a lot of smaller market teams. The gap in total money is not very big. Bigger market teams can negotiate with bigger potential future extensions, more spotlight, and better history..

Also, anyone who is 'low' on Moncada is an idiot...

[Russ2dollas]

50 Million is way to steep to take a chance on a prospect IMO.. I guess he is the last of his kind though.. by June 15th there will be no more signings like his. I still wonder if the new CBA helped or hurt a lot of smaller market teams. The gap in total money is not very big. Bigger market teams can negotiate with bigger potential future extensions, more spotlight, and better history..

Also, anyone who is 'low' on Moncada is an idiot...

Low is a relative term. He's not saying he's a bad player. He likes him a lot. IIRC he just thinks he swings and misses a lot and might just be a good player, not a stud.

[thewupk]

I think it was pipeline or BP that had him one spot over Maitan and said he'd be a spot over Maitan in the top 100. That is a very good prospect but waaaaay more than Maitan cost.

Klaw seems to feel that there is a lot of question on his hit tool. Everyone says he's a legit athlete, doesn't look that young w/ the muscle definition and legit power. But if he can't hit to get to it.... Klaw also references how bad Cubans have been. Klaw also seems to me much lower on Moncada than most everyone else.

I wonder how that ratio really holds up. Sure HO was a stinker but players like Abreu and Cepedes have done well for themselves.

[Southcack77]

ESPN’s Keith Law wonders (Insider subscription required and recommended) whether the White Sox made a mistake in making such a substantial commitment to Cuban star Luis Robert. As Law notes, position players from Cuba have flopped in the Majors more than they’ve succeeded. Law also adds that he’s spoken to a number of scouts to gauge Robert’s abilities, as he’s yet to be able to see Robert himself, and each scout to whom he spoke offered concerns about Robert’s hit tool. All agreed that he’s athletic, a plus runner, possesses above-average bat speed and raw power as well, however. Conversely, Law suggests that if one team was going to take such a significant gamble on Robert’s upside, it should have been the Cardinals, who are without their top three picks in the 2017 draft after forfeiting one to sign Dexter Fowler and losing another two as punishment in the notorious data breach scandal.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/05/international-notes-july-2-prospects-garcia-robert.html

[Preacher]

I don't worry about money quite as much.... if the organization feels they can spend it, go spend it, its not like Roberts is going to eat up significant portions of their payroll going forward, it was largely just the bonus that makes it so high.

Certainly if people think Maitan and Robert are similarly talented and you can get one for $4.25 million and the other costs $50 million, you go get Maitan every time, but that doesn't necessarily mean Roberts is a bad investment, it speaks more to how cheap Maitan was compared to Cuban players. Moncada got $63 million when he signed and the Red Sox used him to grab Sale... surely nobody thinks that's a wasted investment at this point.

Would anybody here have been upset if the Braves found $50 million to add Robert? I wouldn't have, although I certainly understand NOT doing that as well.

[thewupk]

Maybe the White Sox have a better grasp on the Cubans than other teams? They traded for Moncada and they did hit on Abreu.

[Russ2dollas]

I don't worry about money quite as much.... if the organization feels they can spend it, go spend it, its not like Roberts is going to eat up significant portions of their payroll going forward, it was largely just the bonus that makes it so high.

Certainly if people think Maitan and Robert are similarly talented and you can get one for $4.25 million and the other costs $50 million, you go get Maitan every time, but that doesn't necessarily mean Roberts is a bad investment, it speaks more to how cheap Maitan was compared to Cuban players. Moncada got $63 million when he signed and the Red Sox used him to grab Sale... surely nobody thinks that's a wasted investment at this point.

Would anybody here have been upset if the Braves found $50 million to add Robert? I wouldn't have, although I certainly understand NOT doing that as well.

agree.
It's just money and it's not my money.

If it prevented them from signing someone else or forced them to trade someone (like BJ Upton) then we have a problem.

I want to win. You don't get extra points for winning the most financially efficient way possible.

But I understand the Braves not wanting to go 50 million.

[thewupk]

Certainly if people think Maitan and Robert are similarly talented and you can get one for $4.25 million and the other costs $50 million, you go get Maitan every time, but that doesn't necessarily mean Roberts is a bad investment,

That strictly speaks to their ages. If Matian held out till he was 19 and showed the same level of talent he would of gotten a huge payday as well. 55 FV hitters have around a 38 million value. So a 12 million overpay when you consider the tax. But it's just money and if you have it then it's not a big deal. Especially in a lost year.

[Enscheff]

Maybe the White Sox have a better grasp on the Cubans than other teams? They traded for Moncada and they did hit on Abreu.

I think the White Sox know this is their last chance to make a big splash in the international market. Since they decided to rebuild after all the top talent was signed, Robert was their one and only chance to grab a significant international talent simply by outbidding everyone, so they did.

By the very definition of a bidding war, they overpaid for him. Considering they didn't do anything of note in the international market to this point, this is the last chance a team will ever have to simply outbid the market for young talent, and they are starting a brand new rebuild, overpaying for a Top 25 talent is probably justified.

If I were the Braves right now at this moment in time I would not have paid $50M for Robert, but if I could undo the money given to Colon/Dickey/Garcia and funnel it to Robert I would do so in a heartbeat.

[thewupk]

I think the White Sox know this is their last chance to make a big splash in the international market. Since they decided to rebuild after all the top talent was signed, Robert was their one and only chance to grab a significant international talent simply by outbidding everyone, so they did.

By the very definition of a bidding war, they overpaid for him. Considering they didn't do anything of note in the international market to this point, this is the last chance a team will ever have to simply outbid the market for young talent, and they are starting a brand new rebuild, overpaying for a Top 25 talent is probably justified.

If I were the Braves right now at this moment in time I would not have paid $50M for Robert, but if I could undo the money given to Colon/Dickey/Garcia and funnel it to Robert I would do so in a heartbeat.

Agreed. That's the problem in trying to appease the fan base going into a new stadium.

[The Chosen One]

Never did I imagine Luis Robert and Matt Adams would be two of the most talked about threads in the history of this forum. Shows how much of a decline we're in.

[Southcack77]

I think the White Sox know this is their last chance to make a big splash in the international market. Since they decided to rebuild after all the top talent was signed, Robert was their one and only chance to grab a significant international talent simply by outbidding everyone, so they did.

By the very definition of a bidding war, they overpaid for him. Considering they didn't do anything of note in the international market to this point, this is the last chance a team will ever have to simply outbid the market for young talent, and they are starting a brand new rebuild, overpaying for a Top 25 talent is probably justified.

If I were the Braves right now at this moment in time I would not have paid $50M for Robert, but if I could undo the money given to Colon/Dickey/Garcia and funnel it to Robert I would do so in a heartbeat.

It is an interesting decision by the Sox. They still had the option of going into the upcoming signing period with 11 teams disqualified from offering more than a 300k bonus and other teams without too much of uncommitted pool money. I guess they decided the opportunity to sign Robert was better than anything they could do on July 2. The rule change probably screwed them over a good bit, but they still would have had some advantage even with the hard cap.

Maybe they are going after the SS that's still out there too.

Still, they paid 50 million for one guy and the Braves paid what...25 million for 14 including Maitan? As spending in the international draft isn't necessarily linked to contending or not contending I wouldn't say the Sox really made the most efficient use of the process and its assets. Just as traded stars with good contracts under long term control for prospects because you somehow can't win with them probably isn't the most efficient behavior.

[smootness]

It is an interesting decision by the Sox. They still had the option of going into the upcoming signing period with 11 teams disqualified from offering more than a 300k bonus and other teams without too much of uncommitted pool money. I guess they decided the opportunity to sign Robert was better than anything they could do on July 2. The rule change probably screwed them over a good bit, but they still would have had some advantage even with the hard cap.

Maybe they are going after the SS that's still out there too.

Still, they paid 50 million for one guy and the Braves paid what...25 million for 14 including Maitan? As spending in the international draft isn't necessarily linked to contending or not contending I wouldn't say the Sox really made the most efficient use of the process and its assets. Just as traded stars with good contracts under long term control for prospects because you somehow can't win with them probably isn't the most efficient behavior.

You could also certainly argue that avoiding the rebuild until after last year was a bad move as well. They clearly weren't a contender last year, and waiting caused them to miss out on more international talent by not going over their pool until now.

[Preacher]

You could also certainly argue that avoiding the rebuild until after last year was a bad move as well. They clearly weren't a contender last year, and waiting caused them to miss out on more international talent by not going over their pool until now.

yea they certainly didn't time that as well as they could have, and with Quintana struggling this year by his standards, its fair to question their decision to wait on moving him as well.

[Southcack77]

You could also certainly argue that avoiding the rebuild until after last year was a bad move as well. They clearly weren't a contender last year, and waiting caused them to miss out on more international talent by not going over their pool until now.

It was also known that the international rules were changing and the window for blowing the budget out might be closing and of course the Braves had watched and timed things accordingly.