Choosing Between McCann and Justin Upton (and maybe others)

[nsacpi]

There is a chance the Braves will have enough budget to extend all of McCann, Justin Upton, Heyward and Freddie Freeman.

But I think it is a close call. So I want us to assume in this thread that signing McCann to a new contract means we eventually have to let one of the above walk. I think Justin Upton is the most likely one that would leave in this scenario.

So which would you rather have:

1) McCann is brought back (let's say a four year deal with an option for $16M per year). Gattis is a supersub in 2014-2015 and the left fielder thereafter.

or

2) Gattis becomes our catcher. Upton is extended and continues to be our left fielder.

There are a lot of things to consider. Under scenario 2, we have a bit more financial flexibility in 2014-2015 to upgrade elsewhere. But we should also consider that there is no guarantee that all three of Upton, Heyward and Freeman can be extended on terms that are reasonable to the club. That surely has to be taken into account if McCann is amenable to a deal the club considers reasonable.

[Dalyn]

Have to let McCann go unless the NL is going to adopt the DH in a year or so, which isn't going to happen.

[NYCBrave]

At what point do we look at Justin and wonder when we're going to get the production he was advertised to bring? I know he's only 26, but just like big brother BJ, we're still waiting on his potential.

[Dalyn]

At what point do we look at Justin and wonder when we're going to get the production he was advertised to bring? I know he's only 26, but just like big brother BJ, we're still waiting on his potential.

He is having a fine season. One of our better offensive players. He has had about two seasons better than this one. Not sure where this is coming from.

[zitothebrave]

My extension pecking order is

1. Jason
2. Freddie
3. Justin
4. Mac
5. Simmons

Simmons is last because he's cheap for much longer.

[Teheran_49]

At what point do we look at Justin and wonder when we're going to get the production he was advertised to bring? I know he's only 26, but just like big brother BJ, we're still waiting on his potential.

Justin is nothing like his brother. Justin has routinely put up OPS' of 800+ and this is the first season he has been streaky at the plate. If you look at his numbers from years previous he's been pretty consistent every month. If this is J-UP's down year then I'll take it and he's shown that he knows how to hit and can make adjustments. Something his brother hasn't shown one bit. I would take Justin over Mac because of mac's age at his position and FF shouldn't go anywhere. If there is one guy this offense needs it's a consistent player like FF.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I keep remembering Tom Harte,s interview with the original Bossman during opening week when he expounded on how competitive his sons were growing up. I wonder if maybe the older one perhaps hasnt completely grown up and cant stand for his baby brother to out shine him.

[Dalyn]

I keep remembering Tom Harte,s interview with the original Bossman during opening week when he expounded on how competitive his sons were growing up. I wonder if maybe the older one perhaps hasnt completely grown up and cant stand for his baby brother to out shine him.

Being competitive doesn't usually work that way. Can't help but feel like people wouldn't question BJ in such a manner (or display such a lack of patience) if not for a few defining features. Not necessarily you, PPMax, but just in general.

[yeezus]

I keep remembering Tom Harte,s interview with the original Bossman during opening week when he expounded on how competitive his sons were growing up. I wonder if maybe the older one perhaps hasnt completely grown up and cant stand for his baby brother to out shine him.

I think that's just way too simplistic of a view and very unlikely.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Being competitive doesn't usually work that way. Can't help but feel like people wouldn't question BJ in such a manner (or display such a lack of patience) if not for a few defining features. Not necessarily you, PPMax, but just in general.
As I recall, PApa Upton was talking as to their competing with each other, not on the field. Different ages different leagues. And FWIW, Ive always felt and posted such many times that I think BJ will earn his money at some time.

I dont recall but was his spring training poor as well.

[Dalyn]

As I recall, PApa Upton was talking as to their competing with each other, not on the field. Different ages different leagues. And FWIW, Ive always felt and posted such many times that I think BJ will earn his money at some time.

I dont recall but was his spring training poor as well.

I meant competing with each other. Most often that raises the level of all involved.

He had a good spring training. Started off bad (regular season) and was benched after nine games and was shifted around the lineup throughout. Fredi has treated him weird right from the start.

[CyYoung31]

At what point do we look at Justin and wonder when we're going to get the production he was advertised to bring? I know he's only 26, but just like big brother BJ, we're still waiting on his potential.

I don't even know how to properly respond to this. It's that silly.

[cajunrevenge]

How about this trade Both Uptons and Uggla to Rangers for Rios/Kinsler/Nathan. Rios and Kinsler are more productive than BJ and Uggla but are still overpaid by a lot. The Rangers desperately need outfield help, maybe they gamble that a return to the AL helps BJ. He's worth a little just to give Justin incentive to re-sign. All 3 could be helped by a better hitters park. In the first year the salaries are virtually a wash with the Rangers adding taking on 3 million more. The second year is where the Braves get a lot of salary relief. Beyond that its Kinsler's bad contract for BJ's bad contract. For taking on salary the Rangers give up little or nothing in the way of prospects. Braves re-sign McCann, Gattis starts in LF full time, Rios holds down center for 1 year, Nathan sets up for Kimbrel, and Kinsler starts at second. I know 9 million is a lot for a setup man but its a compromise to even up the salaries while giving the Braves a useful piece. Braves could probably trade him pretty easily.

[Teheran_49]

Being competitive doesn't usually work that way. Can't help but feel like people wouldn't question BJ in such a manner (or display such a lack of patience) if not for a few defining features. Not necessarily you, PPMax, but just in general.


Are you just dumb or plain out stupid? I can see what type of person you are. Any player who is getting paid what he's getting paid and is producing what he's produced deserves to be criticized as much as possible. Even Andruw Jones who was one of the greatest Atlanta Braves of all-time and far and away my favorite player growing up was criticized for his pull happy approach at the plate and he hit 50 HR's the season before. Dude GTFO here with that BS. I hated on Uggla his first season until he got hot because when you get paid like these guys get paid then you better produce.

[Dalyn]

Are you just dumb or plain out stupid? I can see what type of person you are. Any player who is getting paid what he's getting paid and is producing what he's produced deserves to be criticized as much as possible. Even Andruw Jones who was one of the greatest Atlanta Braves of all-time and far and away my favorite player growing up was criticized for his pull happy approach at the plate and he hit 50 HR's the season before. Dude GTFO here with that BS. I hated on Uggla his first season until he got hot because when you get paid like these guys get paid then you better produce.

I know one thing, you don't find me doing something like that, regardless of what kind of person I am or how stupid I may or may not be.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Are you just dumb or plain out stupid? I can see what type of person you are. Any player who is getting paid what he's getting paid and is producing what he's produced deserves to be criticized as much as possible. Even Andruw Jones who was one of the greatest Atlanta Braves of all-time and far and away my favorite player growing up was criticized for his pull happy approach at the plate and he hit 50 HR's the season before. Dude GTFO here with that BS. I hated on Uggla his first season until he got hot because when you get paid like these guys get paid then you better produce.
Wow. Man you need to take up knitting or something calming. Anything to get you away from the other kids.

[Teheran_49]

I know one thing, you don't find me doing something like that, regardless of what kind of person I am or how stupid I may or may not be.

Man I see you come here with this race crap about BJ on multiple occasions. Either you just want to stir crap up or you truly believe that. If you do believe that then I stick to my previous statement.

[Teheran_49]

Wow. Man you need to take up knitting or something calming. Anything to get you away from the other kids.

Sorry if I speak on how I feel. Anyone who thinks Braves fans don't like BJ because of his race or are impatient with BJ because of that is ridiculous. I'm white, I listen to country, but guess what? I'm wearing a Justin Upton shirt/jersey and bought it as soon as we traded for the guy. As I stated earlier Andruw was my guy no matter what he did and my old name on the other board was AjGoldGlove25 and even though he wasn't "Black American" and was from Curacao he wasn't white. So I'm sorry if I'm not the type that sits back to this BS. I won't go further into what I think because there is another forum on here for that.

[Dalyn]

There are legitimate reasons to criticize BJ. That is not what I said at all. And the fact that you took a statement--where I named no one--so personal says more than enough.

[Teheran_49]

There are legitimate reasons to criticize BJ. That is not what I said at all. And the fact that you took a statement--where I named no one--so personal says more than enough.

C'mon man don't act that was not what you were implying. I'm not saying you were directing towards me but to think Braves fans are bashing BJ and are impatient with him because he's black is just ridiculous man. Everybody gave Uggla a pass because he had an unbelievable second half and everyone thought ok he was just pressing the first half because he's now on a team with a winning tradition but dude played like trash last year and has been more than horrible this year and I don't know anyone who wants him back next year.

You also point to BJ and his career numbers as a symbol for him being a good player but will you do the same for Uggla then? Uggla's career stats blow BJ's out of the water and it's not even close. In no way am I defending Uggla as you can see with me plugging La Stella like crazy but BJ's career numbers show that a season like this was almost bound to happen. Pedestrian averages and pedestrian OBP. At least with Uggla and his poor BA(not including this piss poor year) he always got on base at over a 35% clip something BJ hasn't even came close to since 2007. He's lived off that 2007 for years and people keep saying potential this potential that well he's 29 now so I think this is more of the reality with BJ than the aberration. I hope he does bounce back but I personally don't see it likely. I think next year he will be better but I doubt if he hits above .230 and has an OBP over .320.

[The Chosen One]

I think the only person who cares BJ is black is niners.

[Dalyn]

C'mon man don't act that was not what you were implying. I'm not saying you were directing towards me but to think Braves fans are bashing BJ and are impatient with him because he's black is just ridiculous man. Everybody gave Uggla a pass because he had an unbelievable second half and everyone thought ok he was just pressing the first half because he's now on a team with a winning tradition but dude played like trash last year and has been more than horrible this year and I don't know anyone who wants him back next year.

You also point to BJ and his career numbers as a symbol for him being a good player but will you do the same for Uggla then? Uggla's career stats blow BJ's out of the water and it's not even close. In no way am I defending Uggla as you can see with me plugging La Stella like crazy but BJ's career numbers show that a season like this was almost bound to happen. Pedestrian averages and pedestrian OBP. At least with Uggla and his poor BA(not including this piss poor year) he always got on base at over a 35% clip something BJ hasn't even came close to since 2007. He's lived off that 2007 for years and people keep saying potential this potential that well he's 29 now so I think this is more of the reality with BJ than the aberration. I hope he does bounce back but I personally don't see it likely. I think next year he will be better but I doubt if he hits above .230 and has an OBP over .320.


Read what I said again. 'In such a manner.' - I think certain criticisms have a weird way of only being directed toward non-white players. We saw it with Andruw Jones. Kenny Lofton. Jason Heyward etc etc "Doesn't hustle." (Even Justin got this one a few times this year) "Doesn't care." "Isn't trying." And such. What did we hear about Uggla? "At least he hustles." "You can tell he is trying, even if he is horrible." Schafer? "At least you can tell he wants to be out there." "Would rather have someone playing who wants to play."

Why is that?

Do I think race is an issue for most of us? No. Do I think it is for some? Absolutely.

[zbhargrove]

Read what I said again. 'In such a manner.' - I think certain criticisms have a weird way of only being directed toward non-white players. We saw it with Andruw Jones. Kenny Lofton. Jason Heyward etc etc "Doesn't hustle." (Even Justin got this one a few times this year) "Doesn't care." "Isn't trying." And such. What did we hear about Uggla? "At least he hustles." "You can tell he is trying, even if he is horrible." Schafer? "At least you can tell he wants to be out there." "Would rather have someone playing who wants to play."

Why is that?

Do I think race is an issue for most of us? No. Do I think it is for some? Absolutely.

^Nailed it and Teheran_49 looks silly once again.

[NYCBrave]

He is having a fine season. One of our better offensive players. He has had about two seasons better than this one. Not sure where this is coming from.

I don't know how you could think he's not a disappointment. His age 24 season in 2011 was top 5 MVP voting, 30+ homers, .290 avg, .900 OPS. That's the player I thought we were getting. You are actually happy having a guy who has declined since?

[NYCBrave]

to further my point, Justin's defense has declined heavily since 2011 if you go by UZR. His defense used to be a positive and now he's well in the negative.

[Teheran_49]

Read what I said again. 'In such a manner.' - I think certain criticisms have a weird way of only being directed toward non-white players. We saw it with Andruw Jones. Kenny Lofton. Jason Heyward etc etc "Doesn't hustle." (Even Justin got this one a few times this year) "Doesn't care." "Isn't trying." And such. What did we hear about Uggla? "At least he hustles." "You can tell he is trying, even if he is horrible." Schafer? "At least you can tell he wants to be out there." "Would rather have someone playing who wants to play."

Why is that?

Do I think race is an issue for most of us? No. Do I think it is for some? Absolutely.

Well Kenny Lofton didn't want to be here and we got hosed on that deal. Justice and Grissom?? Wow that was bad and I think you can understand the dislike for Lofton with Braves fans. I think with Jason is everyone thought we had this guy who was going to hit .300/30/100 every year and be this perennial power house of a hitter and it just hasn't happened. The knocks against Andruw were correct as well, he had all the talent in the world yet didn't put in the work and it's a shame how his career went on track from being one of the greatest to play the game to just another All-Star player.

Honestly, I don't know if it's true or not but sometimes the way BJ is so nonchalant about the way he is playing that there have been times in the past where it looked like he wasn't giving it his all. Dan has always been a hustle player and that's how you have to play when you didn't get a chance at the Big Leagues until 26 and not looked at like a top prospect in the game(like BJ was). I just don't feel like these criticisms are being delivered based on race and more so of how it looks on the field.

[Teheran_49]

Who are you exactly? LOL

[nsacpi]

Honestly, I don't know if it's true or not but sometimes the way BJ is so nonchalant about the way he is playing that there have been times in the past where it looked like he wasn't giving it his all. Dan has always been a hustle player and that's how you have to play when you didn't get a chance at the Big Leagues until 26 and not looked at like a top prospect in the game(like BJ was). I just don't feel like these criticisms are being delivered based on race and more so of how it looks on the field.

A long time ago someone drew the comparison between Pete Rose and Hank Aaron. They made that point that Rose always looked like he was going a hundred miles per hour and got the nickname Charlie Hustle. At the same time Hank just glided around gracefully and didn't look like he was working very hard. But that was deceptive. It was just one player had a particular way of moving that made him look like he was trying much harder. I think this is why so-called "blue collar" players can attain a popularity sometime that is actually out of proportion with both their results and effort. While more graceful types of players don't get the credit they deserve. I suppose some of it is in the eye of the beholder. Graceful in one person's eye becomes nonchalance in another.

[Garmel]

Being competitive doesn't usually work that way. Can't help but feel like people wouldn't question BJ in such a manner (or display such a lack of patience) if not for a few defining features. Not necessarily you, PPMax, but just in general.

:fredi:

[Julio3000]

I think there's a kind of "benevolent" racism which assumes that a guy like Andruw or Jason (and this year, Justin Upton) has this bottomless wellspring of talent which he can choose to tap at will. Then, if they fail to live up to (often unrealistic) expectations, they get judged more harshly, because of some perceived lack of desire to realize their talent. I'm not saying that any particular person is a big ol' racist, but over the years, I think that standard has been applied more often and more vocally to non-white players.

[Teheran_49]

I think there's a kind of "benevolent" racism which assumes that a guy like Andruw or Jason (and this year, Justin Upton) has this bottomless wellspring of talent which he can choose to tap at will. Then, if they fail to live up to (often unrealistic) expectations, they get judged more harshly, because of some perceived lack of desire to realize their talent. I'm not saying that any particular person is a big ol' racist, but over the years, I think that standard has been applied more often and more vocally to non-white players.

Cough Franceour Cough

[nsacpi]

Cough Franceour Cough

I don't think anyone ever accused Francoeur of not loving baseball or not hustling or not caring. He was criticized more along the lines that Uggla is being criticized for. For being stubborn. For not making adjustments in his approach.

[zbhargrove]

Who are you exactly? LOL

Someone who's been around MUCH longer than you

[zbhargrove]

I don't think anyone ever accused Francoeur of not loving baseball or not hustling or not caring. He was criticized more along the lines that Uggla is being criticized for. For being stubborn. For not making adjustments in his approach.

Not to mention Francoeur was completely overrated as a prospect. Because of his super hot MLB start, he was put on a pedestal that was never realistic. Dude was a career .808 OPS in the minors... now he's a career .725 OPS in the majors. That's a pretty normal regression gap from the minors to the majors. Frenchy only really had 3 good years as a professional Brave... Danville (R), Myrtle Beach (A+), and his first year in the bigs (only 257 at-bats and cooled down greatly after his hot start). He was just always overrated and really never projected to be a star... the fact that he was number 14 overall prospect in MLB at one point is laughable considering his numbers.

[Julio3000]

Cough Franceour Cough

Francoeur tends to support my point. A vocal minority of posters thought he had a giant, glaring flaw when he came up . . . a hole in his game, not his character. They harped on it at the time, and continued to do so for the next couple of years. When he failed to progress, he might've been knocked—fairly or not—for his stubbornness, but not for his desire to improve, his love of the game, or his (to borrow a favorite tag of the day) "makeup."

[Teheran_49]

Someone who's been around MUCH longer than you

Around where? LOL

[Teheran_49]

Francoeur tends to support my point. A vocal minority of posters thought he had a giant, glaring flaw when he came up . . . a hole in his game, not his character. They harped on it at the time, and continued to do so for the next couple of years. When he failed to progress, he might've been knocked—fairly or not—for his stubbornness, but not for his desire to improve, his love of the game, or his (to borrow a favorite tag of the day) "makeup."


Let's just get back to the facts. The fact is BJ's past numbers show that a season like this was inevitable. This deal looks worse than the Lowe deal,IMO and he has never been that good of a hitter. I don't blame BJ as much as I blame wren for giving someone with poor production a contract of this magnitude. When it comes to giving big money to free-agents he just needs to let someone else handle the decisions as he has done terrible. He can find relievers off the scrap heap and more times than not they seem to do pretty well but he is just flat out terrible as it seems he just throws these big money contracts out to marginal players.

[rico43]

Like most fans, my biggest concern about BJ is that, statisically speaking, he is the worst free agent signing of all time.

[zbhargrove]

Around where? LOL

This community... if you don't know what Fanhome.com was, best to just keep your mouth shut. This board may be new, but I guarantee the community has been around much longer than you realize.

[The Chosen One]

If you two don't stop flirting with each other...

[stpeteirish]

A long time ago someone drew the comparison between Pete Rose and Hank Aaron. They made that point that Rose always looked like he was going a hundred miles per hour and got the nickname Charlie Hustle. At the same time Hank just glided around gracefully and didn't look like he was working very hard. But that was deceptive. It was just one player had a particular way of moving that made him look like he was trying much harder. I think this is why so-called "blue collar" players can attain a popularity sometime that is actually out of proportion with both their results and effort. While more graceful types of players don't get the credit they deserve. I suppose some of it is in the eye of the beholder. Graceful in one person's eye becomes nonchalance in another.

True, but they were both superstars. I think the bigger misconception occurs with average players who have average (MLB average, that is) results. Fans love the white guys who is "gritty" and "plays hard all of the time" and think the black guy is average because he doesn't care.

[Teheran_49]

This community... if you don't know what Fanhome.com was, best to just keep your mouth shut. This board may be new, but I guarantee the community has been around much longer than you realize.

Dude, I was on the other board with this community when I was like 13-14 and I'm 25 now. I was AjGoldglove25 but it doesn't really matter if I joined yesterday or ten years ago as long as I'm a Braves fan(like most here) then that is all that matters.

[Teheran_49]

True, but they were both superstars. I think the bigger misconception occurs with average players who have average (MLB average, that is) results. Fans love the white guys who is "gritty" and "plays hard all of the time" and think the black guy is average because he doesn't care.

Not always true. Remember Charles Thomas? How big was he when he came up...all hustle.

[yeezus]

Well Kenny Lofton didn't want to be here and we got hosed on that deal. Justice and Grissom?? Wow that was bad and I think you can understand the dislike for Lofton with Braves fans. I think with Jason is everyone thought we had this guy who was going to hit .300/30/100 every year and be this perennial power house of a hitter and it just hasn't happened. The knocks against Andruw were correct as well, he had all the talent in the world yet didn't put in the work and it's a shame how his career went on track from being one of the greatest to play the game to just another All-Star player.

Honestly, I don't know if it's true or not but sometimes the way BJ is so nonchalant about the way he is playing that there have been times in the past where it looked like he wasn't giving it his all. Dan has always been a hustle player and that's how you have to play when you didn't get a chance at the Big Leagues until 26 and not looked at like a top prospect in the game(like BJ was). I just don't feel like these criticisms are being delivered based on race and more so of how it looks on the field.

News flash: Most top prospects, especially those who are deemed "the next greatest player ever," tend to not live up to it. Andruw certainly hustled in the OF. You don't get to judge who's "really trying" or not from your couch. Players play differently, look different playing. You don't know what you're talking about.

[jcc03004]

My 5
1) freemen
2) heyward
3) Medlen
4) minor
5) simmons

[gilesfan]

Freeman, Heyward, Simmons,, McCann, J-Up, Minor,in that order. I would have reservations extending Justin, a lot of keeping him is expecting him to reach potential.

[Teheran_49]

News flash: Most top prospects, especially those who are deemed "the next greatest player ever," tend to not live up to it. Andruw certainly hustled in the OF. You don't get to judge who's "really trying" or not from your couch. Players play differently, look different playing. You don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah your right. Andruw just gained a ton of weight and career went down the toilet because he put in the work. What was I thinking?

[yeezus]

Yeah your right. Andruw just gained a ton of weight and career went down the toilet because he put in the work. What was I thinking?

He's the best defensive CFer of all time. What a fatass, right?
#your
You'RE upset that he isn't a top-10 all-time player when he had the "potential" to be. He had a great career offensively and defensively.

[Teheran_49]

He's the best defensive CFer of all time. What a fatass, right?
#your
You'RE upset that he isn't a top-10 all-time player when he had the "potential" to be. He had a great career offensively and defensively.

Umm I think he showed up to Dodger camp extremely over weight and out of shape but obviously you only remember Andruw through 2004.

[Enscheff]

You are extremely naive if you think AJ was anything more than a fraction of the payer he had the potential to be. He was touted as having "unlimited potential", and could have been a top 5 player all time had he put in the work. As it stands, he was lazy and ended up being just a "good to great" player.

[yeezus]

You are extremely naive if you think AJ was anything more than a fraction of the payer he had the potential to be. He was touted as having "unlimited potential", and could have been a top 5 player all time had he put in the work. As it stands, he was lazy and ended up being just a "good to great" player.

Yep. A lot of guys are. He had a great career. Not everyone that has top-5 potential does it. Few do. Very very few.

[ProbationDeac]

Have to let McCann go unless the NL is going to adopt the DH in a year or so, which isn't going to happen.

It's not a matter of letting him go, we won't be able to afford him. I know there's some hope by some on here that he'll give us a big hometown discount but I don't see it. I think the writing has been on the wall most of the year about this one. Hope I am wrong.

I think scenario two is the most likely though I wonder how well Gattis will do for a full season.

[The Chosen One]

It's not a matter of letting him go, we won't be able to afford him. I know there's some hope by some on here that he'll give us a big hometown discount but I don't see it. I think the writing has been on the wall most of the year about this one. Hope I am wrong.

I think scenario two is the most likely though I wonder how well Gattis will do for a full season.
We can afford him if we get rid of Uggla and probably not re-sign Huddy.

Maholm is definitely gone too.