PDA

View Full Version : BP management



bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 09:49 AM
I am concerned that Game7 will blowout one of the arms of the big 4 currently settling into roles in our pen. So it got me wondering how can you manage the pen more efficiently and still give yourself great chances to win.


I think having these 4 guys just set in a role is not smart. Game7 could manage off days for one guy rotating. He could utilize Krol and Jackson in more high leverage role without exposing them too. So say a starter is struggling like last night and we need another 4 inning save. and say you wanted to give Jo Ram a night off.

whenever you are at the bottom of the order you would use Jackson. So Motte might have 6th to get 1-2-3 out.. Viz has 7th to get 4-5-6... Jackson has 8th to get 7-8-9.. with JJ closing the 9th.

I know this wouldn't always work out that cleanly.. but I think you can also have guys go more than 1 inning as well. I think 25 pitches over 2 innings is better than 25 pitches over 2 days.

thoughts...

50PoundHead
05-23-2017, 09:56 AM
I am concerned that Game7 will blowout one of the arms of the big 4 currently settling into roles in our pen. So it got me wondering how can you manage the pen more efficiently and still give yourself great chances to win.


I think having these 4 guys just set in a role is not smart. Game7 could manage off days for one guy rotating. He could utilize Krol and Jackson in more high leverage role without exposing them too. So say a starter is struggling like last night and we need another 4 inning save. and say you wanted to give Jo Ram a night off.

whenever you are at the bottom of the order you would use Jackson. So Motte might have 6th to get 1-2-3 out.. Viz has 7th to get 4-5-6... Jackson has 8th to get 7-8-9.. with JJ closing the 9th.

I know this wouldn't always work out that cleanly.. but I think you can also have guys go more than 1 inning as well. I think 25 pitches over 2 innings is better than 25 pitches over 2 days.

thoughts...

Just one?

I think Snitker has set up a decent bullpen pecking order back-to-front (Johnson, Vizcaino, Ramirez) with Motte being a big and pleasant surprise. But he's got too much dead weight in the pen right now that is going to lead to over-use of those four. You can't throw the same four guys every time you have a lead and expect them to remain fresh. O'Flaherty is a shadow of what he once was and Krol doesn't bring much to the table. Collmenter is a decent "dead inning" guy, but we need two more guys--hopefully one being a LHP--who can be slotted into key situations and keep guys' arms from falling off.

Southcack77
05-23-2017, 09:59 AM
Just one?

I think Snitker has set up a decent bullpen pecking order back-to-front (Johnson, Vizcaino, Ramirez) with Motte being a big and pleasant surprise. But he's got too much dead weight in the pen right now that is going to lead to over-use of those four. You can't throw the same four guys every time you have a lead and expect them to remain fresh. O'Flaherty is a shadow of what he once was and Krol doesn't bring much to the table. Collmenter is a decent "dead inning" guy, but we need two more guys--hopefully one being a LHP--who can be slotted into key situations and keep guys' arms from falling off.

There is more coming. He's got Cabrera to throw into the mix pretty soon. Ultimately, maybe Wisler or Blair may fill a long relief role.

nsacpi
05-23-2017, 10:01 AM
The test will come when we have 3 or 4 consecutive games where we are protecting a small lead late in the game. That has not happened much so far. Hopefully it does. It would be a nice problem to have and a good test of Snit's bullpen management.

There is no issue for tonight's game, since two games ago Jaime Garcia gave us 8 innings and Jackson pitched the 9th. I'm guessing if we have a lead of four runs or less and the starter is starting to struggle, he will bring in the guys who have been doing the job lately.

smootness
05-23-2017, 10:07 AM
I am concerned that Game7 will blowout one of the arms of the big 4 currently settling into roles in our pen. So it got me wondering how can you manage the pen more efficiently and still give yourself great chances to win.


I think having these 4 guys just set in a role is not smart. Game7 could manage off days for one guy rotating. He could utilize Krol and Jackson in more high leverage role without exposing them too. So say a starter is struggling like last night and we need another 4 inning save. and say you wanted to give Jo Ram a night off.

whenever you are at the bottom of the order you would use Jackson. So Motte might have 6th to get 1-2-3 out.. Viz has 7th to get 4-5-6... Jackson has 8th to get 7-8-9.. with JJ closing the 9th.

I know this wouldn't always work out that cleanly.. but I think you can also have guys go more than 1 inning as well. I think 25 pitches over 2 innings is better than 25 pitches over 2 days.

thoughts...

I don't think this is a bad idea, but one of the issues you run into is that it limits your options as you go. So say Motte and Viz get through their innings fine, then you bring in Jackson for the bottom of the order. That is a good use of your guys to maximize their value assuming they pitch well enough. But if Jackson doesn't get through his inning cleanly (which is less likely when you give him the bottom of the order, but still more likely than a guy like Vizcaino), then your only option is to bring JJ in. You've already burned Motte and Vizcaino, so you're left with fewer options.

I don't mind bringing in Jackson for the 1-2-3 in the 6th and having Motte ready if he gets himself into trouble. At least then you have left yourself with outs. But I do get what you're trying to do and think it's an interesting idea.

Southcack77
05-23-2017, 10:09 AM
I don't think this is a bad idea, but one of the issues you run into is that it limits your options as you go. So say Motte and Viz get through their innings fine, then you bring in Jackson for the bottom of the order. That is a good use of your guys to maximize their value assuming they pitch well enough. But if Jackson doesn't get through his inning cleanly (which is less likely when you give him the bottom of the order, but still more likely than a guy like Vizcaino), then your only option is to bring JJ in. You've already burned Motte and Vizcaino, so you're left with fewer options.

I don't mind bringing in Jackson for the 1-2-3 in the 6th and having Motte ready if he gets himself into trouble. At least then you have left yourself with outs. But I do get what you're trying to do and think it's an interesting idea.

The risk in pitching any reliever is that they won't get the job done and you'll have to burn two right?

What would be helpful would be the starters getting deeper into games so that you don't need to pitch four relievers on a given night.

some of the decisions are pretty standard baseball -- if you are behind you might get the B guy, if you are holding the lead you get A.

smootness
05-23-2017, 10:11 AM
It would have been really nice if Minter could have gotten through ST and the start of the year healthy. He's in a weird spot where once he's ready to come back, you want to get as much use out of him while you can, but you also need to ease him back in and try to get him ready without pushing too hard.

He's a guy we need to have in the majors as soon as he can possibly get there because we need to get as much value as we can before his arm craps out. But it's not an easy road just to get him to that point.

smootness
05-23-2017, 10:13 AM
The risk in pitching any reliever is that they won't get the job done and you'll have to burn two right?

What would be helpful would be the starters getting deeper into games so that you don't need to pitch four relievers on a given night.

some of the decisions are pretty standard baseball -- if you are behind you might get the B guy, if you are holding the lead you get A.

Yeah, but my point is that when you use your better guys first, you burn them and limit your options. If you can use Luke Jackson to get you through an inning, that's very good for you. But in the event he can't, you need to have other options. If you use your better guys on the front end and already have it mapped out to use Jackson later, there is less you can do if he struggles.

nsacpi
05-23-2017, 10:15 AM
I'd like to use this thread to discuss what Snit does with the pen each game on an ongoing basis.

Going into tonight's game, the pen is in relatively good shape. Garcia went 8 on Sunday, with Jackson pitching the 9th.

Last night, Motte, Ramirez, Viz and JJ each pitched an inning. Pitch count totals were reasonable: 19, 10, 17 and 16, respectively.

So I think everyone is available tonight. With a lead of 4 or less, I think we'll see the same four depending on which inning it is. Motte probably exerted more effort than the others last night. So maybe there is a case for being careful with him tonight.

Bigger lead or if we are tied or behind we will see one of the four other guys.

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 10:23 AM
I agree Smoot.. but you can't manage based on failure. if Jackson fails then JJ has the ability to go 2 innings. Then you have him out the next game and you look at re-org'in your pen for JJ being out. Like others have said, we can't bring these guys in for every slim lead. right now Viz has 20 Games, Jo Ram 20 and JJ is at 19. that is about 47% of the games played thus far. that is doable.. but if the Braves continue with the starters going 5 or less innings, then we could see that % go up.

Snit just seems like a guy very routine based. He will just do what has been working. I would like to see more planning to prevent possible arm fatigue down the stretch or up to the trade deadline.

that being said, we could wear the crap out of a few guys and then trade them to the gNats...profit.

50PoundHead
05-23-2017, 10:29 AM
The risk in pitching any reliever is that they won't get the job done and you'll have to burn two right?

What would be helpful would be the starters getting deeper into games so that you don't need to pitch four relievers on a given night.

some of the decisions are pretty standard baseball -- if you are behind you might get the B guy, if you are holding the lead you get A.

Big key that I totally forgot to put in my post. We need starters to get past the sixth more consistently. Then you can have Motte and Ramirez swap the 7th. Ramirez set up when Vizcaino needs a rest and Vizcaino to close when Johnson needs a rest. Would be nice to have a reliable LOOGY (Brothers?). Jackson and a healthy Cabrera could help as well.

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 10:32 AM
I'd like to use this thread to discuss what Snit does with the pen each game on an ongoing basis.

Going into tonight's game, the pen is in relatively good shape. Garcia went 8 on Sunday, with Jackson pitching the 9th.

Last night, Motte, Ramirez, Viz and JJ each pitched an inning. Pitch count totals were reasonable: 19, 10, 17 and 16, respectively.

So I think everyone is available tonight. With a lead of 4 or less, I think we'll see the same four depending on which inning it is. Motte probably exerted more effort than the others last night. So maybe there is a case for being careful with him tonight.

Bigger lead or if we are tied or behind we will see one of the four other guys.

I wouldn't mind seeing Jackson pushed a little. He has good stuff but is a baby face youngin.. Krol can be effective and should be used wisely. I would be ok even using Krol/Freeman to get through one inning.

Jo Ram has been amazing lately.

5/16 1.2 Ip (win) 1 K 29 pitches
5/19 1 ip (hold) 0 K 12 pitches
5/20 1 ip (hold) 1 K 12 pitches
5/22 1 ip (hold) 0 K 10 pitches

not hits nor walks either.

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 10:37 AM
I think Mo Cabrera needs to stay down longer. I think he needs to work on honing his pitches against lesser opponents. He should be K'ing guys at 9 to 10/9innings.. not 6 to 7.

smootness
05-23-2017, 10:38 AM
I agree Smoot.. but you can't manage based on failure. if Jackson fails then JJ has the ability to go 2 innings. Then you have him out the next game and you look at re-org'in your pen for JJ being out. Like others have said, we can't bring these guys in for every slim lead. right now Viz has 20 Games, Jo Ram 20 and JJ is at 19. that is about 47% of the games played thus far. that is doable.. but if the Braves continue with the starters going 5 or less innings, then we could see that % go up.

Snit just seems like a guy very routine based. He will just do what has been working. I would like to see more planning to prevent possible arm fatigue down the stretch or up to the trade deadline.

that being said, we could wear the crap out of a few guys and then trade them to the gNats...profit.

I agree that I would like to see smarter planning. But to some degree, when you're using your better relievers earlier in some games, you're actually increasing their usage. If you use them in the 6th/7th, you're guaranteeing they see innings. If you use your lesser guys earlier, you're potentially resting them if those guys can get through it and if your offense gets you more runs in the process.

There's no easy answer, and I agree with your overall point.

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 10:43 AM
I agree that I would like to see smarter planning. But to some degree, when you're using your better relievers earlier in some games, you're actually increasing their usage. If you use them in the 6th/7th, you're guaranteeing they see innings. If you use your lesser guys earlier, you're potentially resting them if those guys can get through it and if your offense gets you more runs in the process.

There's no easy answer, and I agree with your overall point.

interesting insight with the offense producing enough to get key guys innings off. JJ had the potential to have the night off last night if one run scored in 8th and he has one less appearance than the other two. Motte is newbie so he doesn't count.

Enscheff
05-23-2017, 10:44 AM
Matt pretty much outlined the ioptimal way to utilize a BP, but unfortunately, the Braves are still in the dark ages with BP management. The "closer" will pitch the 9th no matter what part of the lineup is coming to bat. Fortunately, Snit has Viz and JJ, both generally capable of pitching high leverage innings, and since they will primarily be used in the 8th and 9th one of them is almost guaranteed to face the heart of the opposing lineup at the end of the game.

As long as he doesn't use anyone 3 days in a row, and gives them a day off after using them 2 days in a row (without fail), they should be fine health-wise (as healthy as any BP arm can be at least). This team will be behind enough that they won't be faced with too many high leverage innings to manage.

Southcack77
05-23-2017, 10:50 AM
Matt pretty much outlined the ioptimal way to utilize a BP, but unfortunately, the Braves are still in the dark ages with BP management. The "closer" will pitch the 9th no matter what part of the lineup is coming to bat. Fortunately, Snit has Viz and JJ, both generally capable of pitching high leverage innings, and since they will primarily be used in the 8th and 9th one of them is almost guaranteed to face the heart of the opposing lineup at the end of the game.

As long as he doesn't use anyone 3 days in a row, and gives them a day off after using them 2 days in a row (without fail), they should be fine health-wise (as healthy as any BP arm can be at least). This team will be behind enough that they won't be faced with too many high leverage innings to manage.

If there is not a lot of differentiation between your closer and set up man then letting them have their roles may well the play. While people cry about it and there is some argument for it, there aren't many teams (perhaps none consistently) that are matchup driven when it comes to the back of their pen.

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 10:52 AM
Matt pretty much outlined the ioptimal way to utilize a BP, but unfortunately, the Braves are still in the dark ages with BP management. The "closer" will pitch the 9th no matter what part of the lineup is coming to bat. Fortunately, Snit has Viz and JJ, both generally capable of pitching high leverage innings, and since they will primarily be used in the 8th and 9th one of them is almost guaranteed to face the heart of the opposing lineup at the end of the game.

As long as he doesn't use anyone 3 days in a row, and gives them a day off after using them 2 days in a row (without fail), they should be fine health-wise (as healthy as any BP arm can be at least). This team will be behind enough that they won't be faced with too many high leverage innings to manage.

look if you say nice things about me, then it will only encourage more of me stalking you..

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 10:53 AM
If there is not a lot of differentiation between your closer and set up man then letting them have their roles may well the play. While people cry about it and there is some argument for it, there aren't many teams (perhaps none consistently) that are matchup driven when it comes to the back of their pen.

I can't think of any team that doesn't use a closer to actually close the game. there maybe some since I don't focus on the league as a whole too much.

smootness
05-23-2017, 10:55 AM
Matt pretty much outlined the ioptimal way to utilize a BP, but unfortunately, the Braves are still in the dark ages with BP management. The "closer" will pitch the 9th no matter what part of the lineup is coming to bat. Fortunately, Snit has Viz and JJ, both generally capable of pitching high leverage innings, and since they will primarily be used in the 8th and 9th one of them is almost guaranteed to face the heart of the opposing lineup at the end of the game.

As long as he doesn't use anyone 3 days in a row, and gives them a day off after using them 2 days in a row (without fail), they should be fine health-wise (as healthy as any BP arm can be at least). This team will be behind enough that they won't be faced with too many high leverage innings to manage.

Most teams are in the dark ages in BP management. Maddon has been more in the dark ages this year than anybody.

I definitely want to see teams throughout baseball, and obviously the Braves first and foremost, use their bullpen more optimally. But we also don't really have the kind of elite BP arms that allow for the kind of real optimization I would like. And the one advantage you have when waiting to use your best arm(s) is that you have them ready whenever they need to come in. So if you use your best guy in the 8th, you have the decision to make to either pull him for the 9th or keep him out there. And if you pull him, you no longer have him as an option if the lesser guy finds himself in trouble in the 9th.

If the lesser guy finds himself in trouble in the 8th, you can bring in your best arm to get you out of that and then finish it off in the 9th.

Southcack77
05-23-2017, 11:00 AM
Most teams are in the dark ages in BP management. Maddon has been more in the dark ages this year than anybody.

I definitely want to see teams throughout baseball, and obviously the Braves first and foremost, use their bullpen more optimally. But we also don't really have the kind of elite BP arms that allow for the kind of real optimization I would like. And the one advantage you have when waiting to use your best arm(s) is that you have them ready whenever they need to come in. So if you use your best guy in the 8th, you have the decision to make to either pull him for the 9th or keep him out there. And if you pull him, you no longer have him as an option if the lesser guy finds himself in trouble in the 9th.

If the lesser guy finds himself in trouble in the 8th, you can bring in your best arm to get you out of that and then finish it off in the 9th.

There is built in rest for your best guy too. If you are pitching him in the biggest jams whenever they arise, he's not getting much rest.

I'm guessing that is a major reason why no one uses their pen that way. Also, closers don't like being used that way.

smootness
05-23-2017, 11:07 AM
There is built in rest for your best guy too. If you are pitching him in the biggest jams whenever they arise, he's not getting much rest.

I'm guessing that is a major reason why no one uses their pen that way. Also, closers don't like being used that way.

The market will absolutely have to adapt before you're going to get a lot of closers buying into being used in a bunch of non-save situations.

There is always the issue of managing to win vs. managing to get through the season. It is more effective to use your best RP for the toughest situations, I don't think there's any doubt about that. The other factors are rest and when to take them out after those situations vs. having them continue in that game. It's never an extremely easy decision.

That said, I don't think the 'he's my closer, so he pitches the 9th' approach is the best way to do it at all, especially once you hit the postseason.

Hawk
05-23-2017, 11:22 AM
That said, I don't think the 'he's my closer, so he pitches the 9th' approach is the best way to do it at all, especially once you hit the postseason.

/ptsd

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/craig-kimbrel-looks-on-as-the-dodgers-win.gif

Julio3000
05-23-2017, 11:23 AM
Too soon. Still.

smootness
05-23-2017, 12:00 PM
One of the stupidest things in playoff history.

Enscheff
05-23-2017, 12:42 PM
/ptsd

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/craig-kimbrel-looks-on-as-the-dodgers-win.gif

Now we are way off topic, but has anyone seen what Kimbrel is doing this year?

19.2 IP, 36 K, 2 BB (18 K/BB ratio is absolutely insane), 0.92 ERA, 0.49 FIP...so his ERA is due to regress even lower.

Good thing the Braves used him to unload BJ and used that cash to sign Markakis to lead this team to 68 wins!

smootness
05-23-2017, 12:51 PM
Now we are way off topic, but has anyone seen what Kimbrel is doing this year?

19.2 IP, 36 K, 2 BB (18 K/BB ratio is absolutely insane), 0.92 ERA, 0.49 FIP...so his ERA is due to regress even lower.

Good thing the Braves used him to unload BJ and used that cash to sign Markakis to lead this team to 68 wins!

Yes, he is filth...oh, you didn't actually want to talk about Kimbrel, you just wanted to troll. Cool.

cajunrevenge
05-23-2017, 12:59 PM
God help me I agree with Enscheff.

50PoundHead
05-23-2017, 01:06 PM
Now we are way off topic, but has anyone seen what Kimbrel is doing this year?

19.2 IP, 36 K, 2 BB (18 K/BB ratio is absolutely insane), 0.92 ERA, 0.49 FIP...so his ERA is due to regress even lower.

Good thing the Braves used him to unload BJ and used that cash to sign Markakis to lead this team to 68 wins!

Yeah, it's really great that they signed Markakis five months before they traded Upton. Not defending the Markakis signing, but it had nothing to do with the Upton trade.

smootness
05-23-2017, 01:07 PM
Yeah, it's really great that they signed Markakis five months before they traded Upton. Not defending the Markakis signing, but it had nothing to do with the Upton trade.

Enscheff only likes certain facts and numbers.

Hawk
05-23-2017, 01:08 PM
Now we are way off topic, but has anyone seen what Kimbrel is doing this year?

19.2 IP, 36 K, 2 BB (18 K/BB ratio is absolutely insane), 0.92 ERA, 0.49 FIP...so his ERA is due to regress even lower.

Good thing the Braves used him to unload BJ and used that cash to sign Markakis to lead this team to 68 wins!

Unfortunately, yes. I live in Boston so I've been able to watch him a lot. He's in vintage form - only two runs given up all season.

Of course, don't forget that we were all told that his arm was going to fall off in 2015 anyways.

Seeing people walk around in Price/Sale/Kimbrel/Betts jerseys serves to constantly remind me just how far the Braves have to go.

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 01:21 PM
Unfortunately, yes. I live in Boston so I've been able to watch him a lot. He's in vintage form - only two runs given up all season.

Of course, don't forget that we were all told that his arm was going to fall off in 2015 anyways.

Seeing people walk around in Price/Sale/Kimbrel/Betts jerseys serves to constantly remind me just how far the Braves have to go.


And yet the Braves are only 2.5 games behind Boston for overall record.

**edit-- and no that is not what I am saying..

bravesfanMatt
05-23-2017, 02:21 PM
@mlbbowman
The Braves bullpen hasn't allowed a hit over its past 15.1 IP. This is the club's longest such streak in Atlanta history (since 1966).


that is not all on our 4 headed monster too. Neat stat imo..

The Chosen One
05-23-2017, 02:23 PM
@mlbbowman
The Braves bullpen hasn't allowed a hit over its past 15.1 IP. This is the club's longest such streak in Atlanta history (since 1966).


that is not all on our 4 headed monster too. Neat stat imo..


Freddie is protecting them. Less pressure to not f up Freeman's MVP season if he's not playing. They can relax.

DirkPiggler
05-23-2017, 05:32 PM
Now we are way off topic, but has anyone seen what Kimbrel is doing this year?

19.2 IP, 36 K, 2 BB (18 K/BB ratio is absolutely insane), 0.92 ERA, 0.49 FIP...so his ERA is due to regress even lower.

Good thing the Braves used him to unload BJ and used that cash to sign Markakis to lead this team to 68 wins!

To be fair, had the Braves kept Kimbrel you would be bitching about a craptastic team spending $13MM per year on a closer. As would a lot of us for that matter.

It does suck to see him in a Bandwagon Sox uniform though.

Enscheff
05-23-2017, 05:34 PM
To be fair, had the Braves kept Kimbrel you would be bitching about a craptastic team spending $13MM per year on a closer. As would a lot of us for that matter.

It does suck to see him in a Bandwagon Sox uniform though.

Had the Braves traded him for max future return, I wouldn't be bitching. Same deal with Simmons.

Trading Kimbrel was the right move to make for a rebuilding team.

Southcack77
05-23-2017, 05:42 PM
Yeah, it's really great that they signed Markakis five months before they traded Upton. Not defending the Markakis signing, but it had nothing to do with the Upton trade.

DERP!

Enscheff
05-23-2017, 05:49 PM
You all know good and well the Markakis signing and BJ trade were meant to be budget neutral.

But don't let me slow down the derptard circle jerk you guys have going in this thread. Keep quoting and congratulating each other!

Southcack77
05-23-2017, 06:25 PM
You all know good and well the Markakis signing and BJ trade were meant to be budget neutral.

But don't let me slow down the derptard circle jerk you guys have going in this thread. Keep quoting and congratulating each other!

No one thinks that. You just lazy and derped all over yourself.

50PoundHead
05-23-2017, 08:03 PM
You all know good and well the Markakis signing and BJ trade were meant to be budget neutral.

But don't let me slow down the derptard circle jerk you guys have going in this thread. Keep quoting and congratulating each other!

Were you in the room when the decision was made? For a guy who seems to depend some much on hard data as you do, you seem to take some direct causal leaps.

Southcack77
05-23-2017, 08:16 PM
Were you in the room when the decision was made? For a guy who seems to depend some much on hard data as you do, you seem to take some direct causal leaps.

the most obvious immediate use of BJ Upton savings was acquiring Touki Toussaint in exchange for eating dead salary. Long term, maybe acquiring Kemp?

Had nothing to do with markakis.

50PoundHead
05-23-2017, 08:36 PM
the most obvious immediate use of BJ Upton savings was acquiring Touki Toussaint in exchange for eating dead salary. Long term, maybe acquiring Kemp?

Had nothing to do with markakis.

The other problem with enscheff's analysis in this instance is that the Braves cut payroll by $15 million between 2014 and 2015. Gee, $15 million. What were they paying Upton? I'm not arguing that was cause and effect, but the decision on Markakis (which I didn't particularly like) had no bearing on the Upton move.

Enscheff
05-23-2017, 08:46 PM
And if they don't sign Markakis, do they attach BJ to Kimbrel to cut payroll by $15M?

Jesus guys, these moves don't have to happen in sequential order to be tied together.

Anyways, keep jerking each other off in your celebratory quoting of each other.

bravesfanMatt
05-24-2017, 07:44 AM
So I had no complaints with how game7 managed the pen last night. In fact, I liked his double switch to get JJ out immediately after the blown save. Game thread suggested viz go 2 innings and that was an option. But JJ has been really good and I liked our chances to close that one out.

Also congrats on Jacksons first win. One pitch masterpiece.

Southcack77
05-24-2017, 08:19 AM
And if they don't sign Markakis, do they attach BJ to Kimbrel to cut payroll by $15M?

Jesus guys, these moves don't have to happen in sequential order to be tied together.

Anyways, keep jerking each other off in your celebratory quoting of each other.

Yes, because upton had perhaps the worst contract in baseball.

nsacpi
05-24-2017, 08:21 AM
Viz threw 12 pitches last night and JJ 27. Both pitched the night before. JJ should probably be given tonight off with Viz slated to close. Everyone else should be good to go.

thethe
05-24-2017, 08:23 AM
Viz threw 12 pitches last night and JJ 27. Both pitched the night before. JJ should probably be given tonight off with Viz slated to close. Everyone else should be good to go.

Teheran going to pitch a 10 inning shutout and we still win in the 9th.

bravesfanMatt
05-24-2017, 08:28 AM
Viz threw 12 pitches last night and JJ 27. Both pitched the night before. JJ should probably be given tonight off with Viz slated to close. Everyone else should be good to go.

I think viz is off too. JJ for certain. I see jo-ram closes tonight. Motte and Jackson will be available too. Gotta think Krol gets in some fashion tonight. He hasn't pitched in a while.

nsacpi
05-24-2017, 08:33 AM
I think viz is off too. JJ for certain. I see jo-ram closes tonight. Motte and Jackson will be available too. Gotta think Krol gets in some fashion tonight. He hasn't pitched in a while.

I don't think Viz has been used 3 consecutive days yet this year. But only 12 pitches last night. Given JJ is probably out, I think Viz will be available for the 9th inning.

bravesfanMatt
05-24-2017, 08:56 AM
I don't think Viz has been used 3 consecutive days yet this year. But only 12 pitches last night. Given JJ is probably out, I think Viz will be available for the 9th inning.

I don't think he has either. That is why I think he will try not to use him. I will say if it is really close, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jo-Ram to Viz shut down. I just think it is time to press the others into more high leverage rolls. Give Jackson a shot at the 7th or 8th.

Carp
05-24-2017, 09:12 AM
And if they don't sign Markakis, do they attach BJ to Kimbrel to cut payroll by $15M?

Jesus guys, these moves don't have to happen in sequential order to be tied together.

Anyways, keep jerking each other off in your celebratory quoting of each other.

Considering they were trying to dump BJ for several months prior to the trade, it's extremely unlikely that either is related.

nsacpi
05-24-2017, 09:16 AM
I don't think he has either. That is why I think he will try not to use him. I will say if it is really close, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jo-Ram to Viz shut down. I just think it is time to press the others into more high leverage rolls. Give Jackson a shot at the 7th or 8th.

Motte and Ramirez are rested. I think they get 7 and 8 if we have a lead of 4 or less.

nsacpi
05-25-2017, 08:05 AM
Opting to put JJ and Viz on the Do Not Use list probably cost us last night's game. That does not mean it was the wrong decision. There are obviously benefits down the road if Snit is able to keep those two guys healthy and effective for the whole season.

Looking ahead to today's game, I would guess Collmenter (32 pitches last night), Krol (32 pitches), Ramirez (28 pitches) and Motte (23 pitches) are on the Do Not Use list. Viz and JJ will have the 8th and 9th with a small lead. Freeman and Jackson might have to be used in a high leverage situation.

smootness
05-25-2017, 08:29 AM
Collmenter is straight butt. Now 15 ER given up in his last 8 IP. Seems like we might as well call up Wisler or Blair and at least give them a shot. Having them sit in AAA, even if they're not pitching well, isn't doing anything. Let them try to get major league hitters out.

ramadon101
05-25-2017, 08:46 AM
Collmenter is straight butt. Now 15 ER given up in his last 8 IP. Seems like we might as well call up Wisler or Blair and at least give them a shot. Having them sit in AAA, even if they're not pitching well, isn't doing anything. Let them try to get major league hitters out.

You got your wish. Wisler up, Josh DFA'd.

bravesfanMatt
05-25-2017, 08:48 AM
Opting to put JJ and Viz on the Do Not Use list probably cost us last night's game. That does not mean it was the wrong decision. There are obviously benefits down the road if Snit is able to keep those two guys healthy and effective for the whole season.

Looking ahead to today's game, I would guess Collmenter (32 pitches last night), Krol (32 pitches), Ramirez (28 pitches) and Motte (23 pitches) are on the Do Not Use list. Viz and JJ will have the 8th and 9th with a small lead. Freeman and Jackson might have to be used in a high leverage situation.


Yeah, our pen is really short right now. We have not had many great starts to help them nor offensive explosions/beat downs to use our scrubs. I wouldn't be surprised if Collmenter is DFA'd today.. not only because he sucks, but they can bring another arm up to be available. You might see a Blair or Wisler called up.

bravesfanMatt
05-25-2017, 08:49 AM
You got your wish. Wisler up, Josh DFA'd.

Man.. missed it by 30 seconds..

cajunrevenge
05-25-2017, 09:01 AM
Last nights game really ****ed us. With Colon going I would plan on piggybacking Wisler and giving the rest of the pen the night off. If a miracle happens and Colon gets through 6 with a lead I would go with Freeman in the 7th to bridge to Viz/JJ to finish. Under no circumstances do I want to see Viz/JJ used unless we have a lead. If we can avoid using any of the big 4. That would put the pen in good position going into the next 6 games before our off day on the first.

nsacpi
05-27-2017, 10:11 AM
Last night Ramirez threw 1 pitch, Viz 19 pitches and JJ 15 pitches.

In a game with a small lead, all three would be available today. We did see in game 3 of the Pirates series that it is important to avoid a situation in which neither Viz nor JJ is available to pitch the ninth. Hopefully, if they get used tonight the pitch count will be low enough to allow one of them to be available Sunday.

50PoundHead
05-27-2017, 10:20 AM
Last night Ramirez threw 1 pitch, Viz 19 pitches and JJ 15 pitches.

In a game with a small lead, all three would be available today. We did see in game 3 of the Pirates series that it is important to avoid a situation in which neither Viz nor JJ is available to pitch the ninth. Hopefully, if they get used tonight the pitch count will be low enough to allow one of them to be available Sunday.

A team is going to have bullpen meltdowns from time-to-time and sometimes you just have to roll the dice so I don't have a problem with them giving Ramirez the save opportunity on Wednesday night. My problem came in the next inning when we didn't have anyone other than Collmenter to pitch. My only gripe with Coppolella is that he seems to continue the Wren tradition of making these odd roster decisions and seeming to not have a blueprint to which he adheres consistently. I understood picking up Collmenter to make a couple of September starts last season, but there's no reason to keep him on the 40-man over the winter. Bullpen could get better when (and if) Cabrera, Winkler, and Rivero recover. Burgos could help as well.

nsacpi
05-27-2017, 10:34 AM
A team is going to have bullpen meltdowns from time-to-time and sometimes you just have to roll the dice so I don't have a problem with them giving Ramirez the save opportunity on Wednesday night. My problem came in the next inning when we didn't have anyone other than Collmenter to pitch. My only gripe with Coppolella is that he seems to continue the Wren tradition of making these odd roster decisions and seeming to not have a blueprint to which he adheres consistently. I understood picking up Collmenter to make a couple of September starts last season, but there's no reason to keep him on the 40-man over the winter. Bullpen could get better when (and if) Cabrera, Winkler, and Rivero recover. Burgos could help as well.

David Hernandez has pitched extremely well for the Angels so far (1 walk and 12 strikeouts in 12 innings). I think it shows poor evaluation skills on the FO's part to give so much weight to a handful of good games by Collmenter last year to choose him over Hernandez.

David Peterson has been pitching well in AAA (4 walks and 20 strikeouts in 21 innings). I think he is a good option if we need to call up someone.

Peterson is a ground ball pitcher. Which is a consideration that the FO needs to strongly incorporate into its decision making.

Luke Jackson is not a ground ball pitcher. Neither is Wisler. Neither was Collmenter. Just sayin.

bravesfanMatt
05-28-2017, 12:48 PM
So viz, jo ram, motte and JJ have been great in their roles. But keeping them healthy is the key. So do we start using S freeman some more in motte place and bump the others up. Maybe press wisler and Jackson some too. I don't want to ignore the four headed beast. But I would like to keep them heathy too. Freeman has been good and Jackson hasn't been bad since his call up a few weeks ago. I know they all got last night off.

Julio3000
05-28-2017, 12:51 PM
I must say, given the way the new park plays, some ground ball pitchers would be handy.

nsacpi
05-28-2017, 01:20 PM
So do we start using S freeman some more in motte place and bump the others.

Motte hasn't pitched since Wednesday, so he is well rested at the moment. I think the issue is when he gets used a lot he loses effectiveness. Both short-term and long-term considerations suggest that it makes sense to use Freeman and the others in the pen more when the key guys are coming off a period of heavy use.

nsacpi
05-28-2017, 01:38 PM
I must say, given the way the new park plays, some ground ball pitchers would be handy.

In the upper minors, the bullpen arms who tend to keep the ball on the ground are Peterson, Parsons and Hursh. None of them are premium prospects, but I think their ground ball tendencies will give them an edge over some of the other guys.

Among our very top pitching prospects, we have three who tend to keep the ball on the ground (Soroka, Gohara and Anderson) and one who doesn't (Allard).

In the next tier of prospects, Fried keeps the ball on the ground. Sims, Newcomb, Weigel and Toussaint are fly ball pitchers to one extent or another.

bravesfanMatt
05-28-2017, 02:12 PM
Motte hasn't pitched since Wednesday, so he is well rested at the moment. I think the issue is when he gets used a lot he loses effectiveness. Both short-term and long-term considerations suggest that it makes sense to use Freeman and the others in the pen more when the key guys are coming off a period of heavy use.

I didn't phrase that well. I meant use Freeman as the 7 inning guy and then bump the others up. So if you are giving viz a rest. Go Sam/motte/ram/JJ.