St. Louis Cardinals - The Model Organization?

[NYCBrave]

I can't understand how they keep doing it. Obviously they have a ton of payroll, but they haven't missed a beat since Pujols left. My admiration comes from the fact that they seemingly continue to develop high level talents out of nowhere. I follow prospects, and most of the Cardinals prospects were not even highly rated. I'm talking guys like Allen Craig, Matt Carpenter, Jon Jay, Yadier Molina (since when was he a .330 hitter??), Joe Kelly, Lance Lynn, Matt Adams. Plus, they do it in a professional manner.

Now I'm not saying I don't admire what we've been able to do, we've done an amazing job of developing players like Heyward, Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel, etc, but these guys were all highly rated. It's like the Cardinals just continue pulling guys out of their a**. Anyone else notice this?

[Heyward]

Yup, will be interesting to see what they do with Adams.

Legit 30 HR power but Craig plays first base for them and is under control for awhile.

It is crazy whoever they bring up does well.

[NYCBrave]

And now they're discussing it on Sunday Night Baseball.

[Bye Week]

Screw 'em

[CyYoung31]

The Braves have been just as good if not better over the last 20+ years.

[zitothebrave]

The Braves have been just as good if not better over the last 20+ years.

Cards have more rings so they have us there. But yeah, the Braves were pretty damned spectacular when they had the money the Cards have.

[drewdat]

Roids.

[NYCBrave]

Cards have more rings so they have us there. But yeah, the Braves were pretty damned spectacular when they had the money the Cards have.

Both of you guys are missing the point I was making, not sure if you even read my original post....

[nsacpi]

It is easy to build up a big stockpile of talent by losing year after year. Teams like the Rays and Gnats have done this. But the real test of a franchise imo is to keep reloading without the benefit of high draft picks over a multi-year period. The Braves and Cards are really the best at this. You can argue for one or the other but we're the two most intelligently run franchises imo. The A's and Rangers probably belong in the conversation, but I would rate them third and fourth.

In terms of talent graduated to the majors in recent years, I agree with this BA article, which rates us first:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/braves-find-plenty-of-production-from-farm-system-in-recent-years/

If you control for draft position, our lead would be even more impressive.

[NYCBrave]

It is easy to build up a big stockpile of talent by losing year after year. Teams like the Rays and Gnats have done this. But the real test of a franchise imo is to keep reloading without the benefit of high draft picks over a multi-year period. The Braves and Cards are really the best at this. You can argue for one or the other but we're the two most intelligently run franchises imo. The A's and Rangers probably belong in the conversation, but I would rate them third and fourth.

In terms of talent graduated to the majors in recent years, I agree with this BA article, which rates us first:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/braves-find-plenty-of-production-from-farm-system-in-recent-years/

If you control for draft position, our lead would be even more impressive.

I'd put the Rays in there with best run organizations. What they've been able to accomplish despite payroll restrictions and lackluster fan base is very admirable. Sure, they've had some high draft slots, but they seem to develop all of their talent extremely well. The way they develop their starting pitching is amazing.

[nsacpi]

Yeah. The Rays have a smart front office too. But I'm curious to see if their farm system remains productive without the high draft picks.

[50PoundHead]

Yeah. The Rays have a smart front office too. But I'm curious to see if their farm system remains productive without the high draft picks.

The one thing I notice about the Rays is that whenever they trade one of their established guys, they almost always get a young pitcher back and keep stockpiling that pitching. One can argue about Myers for Shields all day long, but that was prospect for established guy and even if that deal tips somewhat to Tampa Bay, it's not as unreasonable a short-term deal as some contend. Where the larceny comes in is that the Rays got Odorizzi in the relatively minor part of the exchange. Same thing in the Garza deal when they got Chris Archer.

Cards are a top-notch organization. The payroll advantage they have over us means a lot, but St. Louis uses that money edge for stability. I think their system looks for a player "type" and develops along those lines. I've always liked Allen Craig and hoped the Braves would have made a play for him a few years back, but he's firmly ensconced in St. Louis for now. They seem to put the ball in play a lot, but don't hit a bunch of HRs and don't run much, so their offensive success is a bit counter-intuitive. And they've got some great pitching right now. Wainwright has established himself as one of the NL's best and Miller and Kelly simply throw gas. They always seem to have a decent bullpen and a lot of flexibility on their bench.

[The Chosen One]

It's not like Tampa has had a ton of high draft picks the last few years, they've actually been a winning squad recently.

But there's no question all those years of sucking helped them draft and create a huge core.

I will say I remember the days in the early-Mid 2000's when our payroll was Top 3, then it dropped to Top 5, then to Top 8, then to Top 10, and now we're middle of the pack I don't even pay attention anymore. Everyone got budget increases and FW has had to construct his team creatively considering we've had Chipper's contract (and now BJ and Uggla) to move around.

[nsacpi]

Low payroll teams like the Rays and A's really have no choice but to try to get younger in every trade they make. More precisely, by younger I mean more years under cost-control. The two are not always exactly the same. Teams in the Braves payroll neighborhood can get away with occasionally adding an older, more expensive player. And the richer teams can do a lot of that. But we've seen that age catches up with even the richest teams if their farm system is not making a contribution.

[50PoundHead]

Low payroll teams like the Rays and A's really have no choice but to try to get younger in every trade they make. More precisely, by younger I mean more years under cost-control. The two are not always exactly the same. Teams in the Braves payroll neighborhood can get away with occasionally adding an older, more expensive player. And the richer teams can do a lot of that. But we've seen that age catches up with even the richest teams if their farm system is not making a contribution.

But there are "younger players" and "younger players who project." Tampa Bay has been on a roll in getting the latter rather than simply filler.

Wren could have never known that Uggla and BJ Upton would simply reek of near total ineptitude they way they have, but I really questioned both moves (and I'm not bandwagon jumping here) when they were made. If you are a mid-market team, you can't dole out the dollars in this way.

[Enscheff]

Slightly off topic, but this thread makes me realize just how lucky the Nats are. They had the #1 pick 2 years in a row when the generational talents on the mound and the plate were available. Any team would have taken Stras and Harper with the first pick, and the Nats got them both. To top it off, they moved into a HUGE market that allowed them to boost payroll significantly.

It was like they fell into the perfect storm that allowed them to go from the outhouse to the penthouse in a matter of about 2 years.

[NYCBrave]

Slightly off topic, but this thread makes me realize just how lucky the Nats are. They had the #1 pick 2 years in a row when the generational talents on the mound and the plate were available. Any team would have taken Stras and Harper with the first pick, and the Nats got them both. To top it off, they moved into a HUGE market that allowed them to boost payroll significantly.

It was like they fell into the perfect storm that allowed them to go from the outhouse to the penthouse in a matter of about 2 years.

It's a very fair point about being in the position to select those two. You could also throw in the fact Rendon fell to them due to injury concerns and he was supposed to be the best bat in that draft.

[Enscheff]

But there are "younger players" and "younger players who project." Tampa Bay has been on a roll in getting the latter rather than simply filler.

Wren could have never known that Uggla and BJ Upton would simply reek of near total ineptitude they way they have, but I really questioned both moves (and I'm not bandwagon jumping here) when they were made. If you are a mid-market team, you can't dole out the dollars in this way.

I was all for the Uggla extension simply because he filled the RHed power void in the organization. This organization STILL hasn't produced a RHed power bat since....AJ?

I was agasint the BJ signing at the start. I didn't think he was going to flop like this, but I thought it was way too much for a guy that should be past the "potential" period in his career.

[nsacpi]

I was all for the Uggla extension simply because he filled the RHed power void in the organization. This organization STILL hasn't produced a RHed power bat since....AJ?



Gattis

[Enscheff]

Right. I'm going to go ahead and add a qualifier to my statement...

This organization STILL hasn't produced a RHed power bat with a .300+ OBP (nevermind league average OBP) since....AJ?

[50PoundHead]

I was all for the Uggla extension simply because he filled the RHed power void in the organization. This organization STILL hasn't produced a RHed power bat since....AJ?

I was agasint the BJ signing at the start. I didn't think he was going to flop like this, but I thought it was way too much for a guy that should be past the "potential" period in his career.

I get all that, but you don't extend a guy who is likely to begin a downward trend to that kind of money, especially if you a mid-market or below team. He's not an athletic guy and those guys tend to fall off the table. I think it was just a bad move by Wren.