Albies

[The Chosen One]

:pound:

[nsacpi]

who?

[Deester11]

:pound:

All I'm saying is that I drove the bus, told ya so, championed the cause. But I don't need credit..lol, I just think he should be untouchable...MOSTLY.

[UNCBlue012]

New GOAT

[The Chosen One]

who?

The guy we're rumored to be trading for a frontline starter.

[The Chosen One]

All I'm saying is that I drove the bus, told ya so, championed the cause. But I don't need credit..lol, I just think he should be untouchable...MOSTLY.

Hey I've been on the Oz train since long before we even acquired Swanson. Just stoked we're actually producing someone that can field and hit. Haven't had one since Simmons.

[thethe]

The question is does Albies hit 50 Homers next year?

[nsacpi]

Hey I've been on the Oz train since long before we even acquired Swanson. Just stoked we're actually producing someone that can field and hit. Haven't had one since Simmons.

He can run too.

[mqt]

The question is does Albies hit 50 Homers next year?

And the answer is obviously yes.

[nsacpi]

That appearance by John Hart during one of the games and his comments about Albies confirms everything I've suspected about the guy (John Hart).

[Enscheff]

But I was told Demerritte's good 2 week stretch made Albies expendable.

[Tapate50]

But I was told Demerritte's good 2 week stretch made Albies expendable.

You weren't

[nsacpi]

You weren't

I recall multiple trade proposals based on the premise that Demeritte could play second.

[mfree80]

I recall multiple trade proposals based on the premise that Demeritte could play second.

Okay.... to be fair. The discussion was that Demeritte and the haul you could get for Albies might be worth more than Albies. NOBODY thought that TD was better than Albies.

[nsacpi]

Okay.... to be fair. The discussion was that Demeritte and the haul you could get for Albies might be worth more than Albies. NOBODY thought that TD was better than Albies.

That's right. I don't think it is crazy to speculate about trades of that nature. But I think there is a small band of us here who have been very big fans of Albies for a while. And we're just relieved that all those trade rumors did not come to pass. I think he's been undervalued even relative to some of the high rankings he's gotten from BA and others.

[mfree80]

That's right. I don't think it is crazy to speculate about trades of that nature. But I think there is a small band of us here who have been very big fans of Albies for a while. And we're just relieved that all those trade rumors did not come to pass. I think he's been undervalued even relative to some of the high rankings he's gotten from BA and others.

Agreed. It would not have been a smart move. Just want the record to be straight.

[NinersSBChamps]

Let's circle jerk to empty stats!!!

[zbhargrove]

After a little rough start, dude has been unreal.

[zbhargrove]

Let's circle jerk to empty stats!!!

:Alone:

[CyYoung31]

That appearance by John Hart during one of the games and his comments about Albies confirms everything I've suspected about the guy (John Hart).

That he really likes to dance?

[chop2chip]

That appearance by John Hart during one of the games and his comments about Albies confirms everything I've suspected about the guy (John Hart).

I saw this mentioned in the GDT as well. What did JH exactly say?

[JxnMissFan]

The side burns / facial hair that Ozzie sports are worth an extra .5 War. Kind of makes him look like a player from the 70s.

I wouldn't be shocked if Demerite is pushing Carmargo and Ruiz for playing time a year from now.

I agree that John Hart may be the FO problem. Ozzie is making him look dumb.

[JxnMissFan]

I saw this mentioned in the GDT as well. What did JH exactly say?

I'm sure someone can find the interview. But JH was less than positive about him. Matter of fact JH made our resident curmudgeons look positive the best I remember

[nsacpi]

The side burns / facial hair that Ozzie sports are worth an extra .5 War. Kind of makes him look like a player from the 70s.

I wouldn't be shocked if Demerite is pushing Carmargo and Ruiz for playing time a year from now.

I agree that John Hart may be the FO problem. Ozzie is making him look dumb.

Not just the hair. The way he carries himself. He just knows he's good. He's everything certain people thought Swanson was last year.

53 extra base hits so far this year between AAA and the majors.

[rico43]

The side burns / facial hair that Ozzie sports are worth an extra .5 War. Kind of makes him look like a player from the 70s.

I wouldn't be shocked if Demerite is pushing Carmargo and Ruiz for playing time a year from now.

I agree that John Hart may be the FO problem. Ozzie is making him look dumb.

Over a 50-game span this year (June/July), he hit around .165 with 60 strikeouts vs 28 hits. Total of 134 strikeouts this year. Camargo has never struck out more than 82 times. in a season.

Demeritte plays a nifty second base and has had big power numbers in the lower minors. Ruiz' career high in homers has come in AAA. Not saying you're wrong, but he's just not trending that way.

[chop2chip]

I'm sure someone can find the interview. But JH was less than positive about him. Matter of fact JH made our resident curmudgeons look positive the best I remember

Do you remember roughly the inning? I'll look through the archive video of the game

[chipchildress]

Over a 50-game span this year (June/July), he hit around .165 with 60 strikeouts vs 28 hits. Total of 134 strikeouts this year. Camargo has never struck out more than 82 times. in a season.

Demeritte plays a nifty second base and has had big power numbers in the lower minors. Ruiz' career high in homers has come in AAA. Not saying you're wrong, but he's just not trending that way.

thank you.

camargo is either going to be in the lineup next year in atlanta or will be another in the long line of horrible give away trades. sadly i'm betting on the latter. i predict a former first round pick who can no longer lift his arm over his head will be the return. 'cause, you know, the johns are always the last to recognize it. see olivera, hector.

[thethe]

Albies now pacing at around 5.2 WAR.

If Acuna is as good as most think this team gets good real quick.

[UNCBlue012]

Albies now pacing at around 5.2 WAR.

If Acuna is as good as most think this team gets good real quick.

You're known as being the PosiBrave, thethe, but you're right about this.

The simple addition of Albies at his current pace, Acuna (who we know will be good) and Swanson (even half as good as the second half) to Freeman and Inciarte is a legit great lineup.

[nsacpi]

You're known as being the PosiBrave, thethe, but you're right about this.

The simple addition of Albies at his current pace, Acuna (who we know will be good) and Swanson (even half as good as the second half) to Freeman and Inciarte is a legit great lineup.

Lets not forget Kemp.

[Deester11]

Hey I've been on the Oz train since long before we even acquired Swanson. Just stoked we're actually producing someone that can field and hit. Haven't had one since Simmons.
Me too. The fact that any moran who's followed prospects and watched Ozzie in person and watched him continue to hit could see he would or could be a cornerstone for this team and it would be questionable to Hart is an indication he should re-damn-tire.

[Tapate50]

That's right. I don't think it is crazy to speculate about trades of that nature. But I think there is a small band of us here who have been very big fans of Albies for a while. And we're just relieved that all those trade rumors did not come to pass. I think he's been undervalued even relative to some of the high rankings he's gotten from BA and others.

And I was one of his biggest supporters. Even questioning the lowering of him and his prospect rankings of late.

I still don't remember, "TD is a stud, lets trade Ozzie"

[bravesfanMatt]

Here is part of the interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxSlbkLThg

[sturg33]

Here is part of the interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxSlbkLThg

He went on from there... And suggested he needed to make more improvements from the left side, and so that they could "see what we have"

He was just "meh" on him the entire interview

Normally a top prospect gets called up and the FO gushes over him.

[Russ2dollas]

You're known as being the PosiBrave, thethe, but you're right about this.

The simple addition of Albies at his current pace, Acuna (who we know will be good) and Swanson (even half as good as the second half) to Freeman and Inciarte is a legit great lineup.

It's still SSS. Ppl said this about Swanson last year.

Do we really expect Albies to slug 444 for an entire year? Great if so but that seems high for even his numbers in the minors. But the major leaguers do seem to hit more HRs...

I'd pencil Albies in for 2-3 WAR next year. I'd love him to be a 5 WAR guy but that is asking a lot. Same thing with Acuna. I'd put Acuna down for 2 WAR (which is a BIG improvement over what we have now) and be happy if he does better.

[atl717]

Albies has emerging power. I definitely think hes capable of an iso around .150. His plus hit tool allows that power to play up as well as his speed.

[msstate7]

It's still SSS. Ppl said this about Swanson last year.

Do we really expect Albies to slug 444 for an entire year? Great if so but that seems high for even his numbers in the minors. But the major leaguers do seem to hit more HRs...

I'd pencil Albies in for 2-3 WAR next year. I'd love him to be a 5 WAR guy but that is asking a lot. Same thing with Acuna. I'd put Acuna down for 2 WAR (which is a BIG improvement over what we have now) and be happy if he does better.

I think Swanson, inciarte, and Albies will all be 3.0 or better fWAR players next season. We're gonna be pretty dang solid up the middle.

[Super]

Here is part of the interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxSlbkLThg

...that's what people are using to say the FO was lukewarm on Albies? He wasn't "gushing" but he didn't put him down either. Albies objectively did/does have to improve from the left side. Simply stating that means nothing. He "gushed" about Camargo during that. Does that mean he likes Johan better than Ozzie? People read into that stuff what they want to.

[bravesfanMatt]

I think Swanson, inciarte, and Albies will all be 3.0 or better fWAR players next season. We're gonna be pretty dang solid up the middle.

I saw a graphic that said the Braves offense was at the top of MLB (around the top) for the last month. If we can get some sort of consistent starting pitching then we might have a team that is fun to watch. Would love to have both our corner OF be younger..

[Oklahomabrave]

...that's what people are using to say the FO was lukewarm on Albies? He wasn't "gushing" but he didn't put him down either. Albies objectively did/does have to improve from the left side. Simply stating that means nothing. He "gushed" about Camargo during that. Does that mean he likes Johan better than Ozzie? People read into that stuff what they want to.
If it means anything I hope it's that they attempting to sell high on Camargo.

[thethe]

The power looks legit. His hit tool is off the charts.

A comparison to swAnson is not fair either when you look at the BB%/K%.

[bravesfanMatt]

...that's what people are using to say the FO was lukewarm on Albies? He wasn't "gushing" but he didn't put him down either. Albies objectively did/does have to improve from the left side. Simply stating that means nothing. He "gushed" about Camargo during that. Does that mean he likes Johan better than Ozzie? People read into that stuff what they want to.

I am pretty pozzi, but I came away from that interview with a befuddled feel as to why Hart was so up on Jo-gun and even pumped Swanson, but oh yeah Ozzie and we need to see him. I really felt it was not what a FO should be doing to pump a top prospect. it was like he didn't believe in him.

[msstate7]

I saw a graphic that said the Braves offense was at the top of MLB (around the top) for the last month. If we can get some sort of consistent starting pitching then we might have a team that is fun to watch. Would love to have both our corner OF be younger..

One side taken care of. Just gonna have to hope kemp or Markakis can be somewhat productive in left

[msstate7]

I am pretty pozzi, but I came away from that interview with a befuddled feel as to why Hart was so up on Jo-gun and even pumped Swanson, but oh yeah Ozzie and we need to see him. I really felt it was not what a FO should be doing to pump a top prospect. it was like he didn't believe in him.

Justifying a trade to his fanbase

[nsacpi]

I am pretty pozzi, but I came away from that interview with a befuddled feel as to why Hart was so up on Jo-gun and even pumped Swanson, but oh yeah Ozzie and we need to see him. I really felt it was not what a FO should be doing to pump a top prospect. it was like he didn't believe in him.

He also displayed no awareness of the implications of the fact that Ozzie is three years younger than Swanson and Camargo. That means a lot in terms of how much development he has ahead of him.

[bravesfanMatt]

One side taken care of. Just gonna have to hope kemp or Markakis can be somewhat productive in left

I would be in favor of a D-Pete LF. I would happily swap offense for defensive upgrade. Our pitchers need to be confident that if they make mistakes the guys behind them can pick them up.

[nsacpi]

The power looks legit. His hit tool is off the charts.

A comparison to swAnson is not fair either when you look at the BB%/K%.

Actually Swanson's K and BB rate in the second half look very good. There are three differences between Swanson and Albies from a baseball point of view. One is base running. Power is the second. And the most important is the 3 year age difference.

[nsacpi]

I saw a graphic that said the Braves offense was at the top of MLB (around the top) for the last month. If we can get some sort of consistent starting pitching then we might have a team that is fun to watch. Would love to have both our corner OF be younger..

The offense is coming together nicely. I think what we've seen from Swanson and Camargo in the second half is sustainable. Albies is the real deal, and Acuna will provide a boost at some point next year. The FO will need to maintain some patience in letting the pitching develop. I hope they avoid the temptation to go for that big name starter.

[bravesfanMatt]

The offense is coming together nicely. I think what we've seen from Swanson and Camargo in the second half is sustainable. Albies is the real deal, and Acuna will provide a boost at some point next year. The FO will need to maintain some patience in letting the pitching develop. I hope they avoid the temptation to go for that big name starter.

me too.

[Enscheff]

Albies has emerging power. I definitely think hes capable of an iso around .150. His plus hit tool allows that power to play up as well as his speed.

Albies' ISO is a bit inflated due to his 40% fly ball rate coupled with the fact he has gotten lucky on fly balls.

Over time I expect him to hit fewer fly balls, hit more line drives, and once his luck normalizes to produce right around where he's producing now overall. He is a legit 4+ win player, though maybe not immediately next year.

He will slump at some point, and it will be amusing to see the board melt down about how he needs to be sent down.

[thethe]

Actually Swanson's K and BB rate in the second half look very good. There are three differences between Swanson and Albies from a baseball point of view. One is base running. Power is the second. And the most important is the 3 year age difference.

The hesitancy was that swAnson was real good last year in his short stint so we can pump the brakes on albies.

[nsacpi]

The hesitancy was that swAnson was real good last year in his short stint so we can pump the brakes on albies.

What is this pump the brakes stuff. Albies, Swanson and Camargo are showing us the future. The dawn of a new day.

We have a diverse dynamic young competitive infield. The promotional campaign writes itself. Freddie and the Can Cans. The FO should be jumping all over this and using it to pump up attendance.

[thethe]

What is this pump the brakes stuff. Albies, Swanson and Camargo are showing us the future. The dawn of a new day.

We have a diverse dynamic young competitive infield. The promotional campaign writes itself. Freddie and the Can Cans. The FO should be jumping all over this and using it to pump up attendance.

You know me...I don't have breaks.

[Chico]

...that's what people are using to say the FO was lukewarm on Albies? He wasn't "gushing" but he didn't put him down either. Albies objectively did/does have to improve from the left side. Simply stating that means nothing. He "gushed" about Camargo during that. Does that mean he likes Johan better than Ozzie? People read into that stuff what they want to.

I agree. I don't see how this is a big deal. GM's are like politicians. Nothing they say is what they actually mean. I wouldn't look too much in to it.

[nsacpi]

I agree. I don't see how this is a big deal. GM's are like politicians. Nothing they say is what they actually mean. I wouldn't look too much in to it.

I just think the comparison with what they say about Camargo, Swanson, Acuna and others relative to what Hart said about Albies is striking

[Enscheff]

The power looks legit. His hit tool is off the charts.

A comparison to swAnson is not fair either when you look at the BB%/K%.

Hit tool off the charts? Really?

Gwynn and Ichiro had an 80 hit tool, but Albies is off the charts!

[UNCBlue012]

You also have to keep in mind that Albies has done this throughout his entire professional career. But is a pure hitter with almost no flaws in his swing.

I like Swanson, but he's not shown to be anywhere near the hitter Albies has been.

[Deester11]

The hesitancy was that swAnson was real good last year in his short stint so we can pump the brakes on albies.
Why? A prospect is supposed to show consistency and several skillsets. Albies checked the boxes even more than Swanson so it's an indictment on the judgement of our FO were they not "sold" on Albies. Summarily I've been blessed enough to actually talk to a few opposing scouts in Rome and a few other affiliates I visit each year. They all unanimously thought Albies was better than Swanson except arm. (Blessed that we have both).

Wonder if it was Hart's opinion alone or Coppy? Last year, when Ozzie was doing well, they even said they wanted to let him mature more...although he was good at AA and ok at AAA.

[smootness]

Albies is and always was phenomenal.

And he will go through a period, either to end this year or at some point next year, where he will struggle. We just need to keep running him out there every day no matter what and he will be just fine.

[thethe]

Why? A prospect is supposed to show consistency and several skillsets. Albies checked the boxes even more than Swanson so it's an indictment on the judgement of our FO were they not "sold" on Albies. Summarily I've been blessed enough to actually talk to a few opposing scouts in Rome and a few other affiliates I visit each year. They all unanimously thought Albies was better than Swanson except arm. (Blessed that we have both).

Wonder if it was Hart's opinion alone or Coppy? Last year, when Ozzie was doing well, they even said they wanted to let him mature more...although he was good at AA and ok at AAA.

I'm not being hesitant. It was in response to Russ's post. I don't think Swanson last year is comparable to Albies this year. I'm pro-albies here sir.

[Deester11]

I'm not being hesitant. It was in response to Russ's post. I don't think Swanson last year is comparable to Albies this year. I'm pro-albies here sir.
I see!!!! My post was probably more of an indictment of the FO handling of a few things. Albies is one. He deserved his promotion and they should have left Swanson where he was to get more seasoning...in any case, Albies is a special player in my eyes.

[clvclv]

If it means anything I hope it's that they attempting to sell high on Camargo.

Would personally love for the Cardinals to be as high as the board is on Camargo at the moment. He's a better defensive SS than anyone in their system, and I just get the feeling that they're going to make their splash this winter with a J. D. Martinez addition. They've got plenty of MLB-ready OF depth, and a Camargo-Piscotty deal would free-up a little money for them to add a serious middle of the order bat like Martinez.

Pretty funny, really - there was a Cardinals' fan that called in on XM a while ago talking about how much he'd love to have Johan. Probably not as much as I'd like to have an Inciarte/Acuna/Piscotty outfield through 2022 since I think this is just a blip and winds up being Piscotty's "off-year'.

[Southcack77]

I was always higher on Albies than I was Swanson.

I also saw both the Hart interview and the substantially similar interview Chipper gave during the season. Both interviews suggested that a 19 year old prospect had things to work on in the minors. I think that probably was and is right. Neither interview in any way suggested the Braves were not high on him. Neither interview in any way rated Albies in comparison to Swanson or Camargo.

At the time of the Hart interview, I believe Swanson and Camargo were in the majors, which is one reason why a front office man might sing their praises.

Albies being rumored to having been discussed in trades is not a bad thing. Albies in fact has not been traded for anything. That's also not a bad thing. The disaster scenarios that go around here seem to actually have happened or might as well have happened in some minds. I don't get it.

Ozzie Albies is no more an untouchable under any circumstance player than Swanson or Inciarte. It's hard to see a deal that would make sense at the moment for him, but that doesn't mean his name should never come up.

[GeorgiaGirl]

September stats are pretty much garbage time due to expansion, but the longer Albies goes without spiking in K's (games against a beast like Scherzer get discounted a little bit), the more impressive his stretch gets...heck, his August taste was already better than Swanson's was and August is NOT garbage time.

My guess is that he falls off next year and may have a struggle period but it won't be hitting .150 through the entire month of April like a certain shortstop did (who I think has overcome that but...still, shouldn't have been up at all last year and should've been given more time to cook this year). It'll be something like a period of .220's because his hitting tool is simply better than Dansby's. And I will be here and own up to it if I'm wrong.

[clvclv]

I was always higher on Albies than I was Swanson.

I also saw both the Hart interview and the substantially similar interview Chipper gave during the season. Both interviews suggested that a 19 year old prospect had things to work on in the minors. I think that probably was and is right. Neither interview in any way suggested the Braves were not high on him. Neither interview in any way rated Albies in comparison to Swanson or Camargo.

At the time of the Hart interview, I believe Swanson and Camargo were in the majors, which is one reason why a front office man might sing their praises.

Albies being rumored to having been discussed in trades is not a bad thing. Albies in fact has not been traded for anything. That's also not a bad thing. The disaster scenarios that go around here seem to actually have happened or might as well have happened in some minds. I don't get it.

Ozzie Albies is no more an untouchable under any circumstance player than Swanson or Inciarte. It's hard to see a deal that would make sense at the moment for him, but that doesn't mean his name should never come up.

Isn't a little funny to notice that some of the folks screaming how Albies should be considered "untouchable" are the same ones who are at the forefront of the "trade Freeman" discussions - and have been all along?

[nsacpi]

Isn't a little funny to notice that some of the folks screaming how Albies should be considered "untouchable" are the same ones who are at the forefront of the "trade Freeman" discussions - and have been all along?

I'm curious, care to name who these folks are?

[The Chosen One]

I will be the first to admit I was wrong. I wanted to trade Freeman during the firesale. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm glad we keep him. I just don't know how to feel about him getting older and more prone to injury towards the backend of his contract while we're almost done rebuilding.

[The Chosen One]

And for the record I also wanted to unload Tehearn before anyone else like Hey, Simba or Free.

[Deester11]

I'm curious, care to name who these folks are? This. What sane Braves fan wanted that? And yes, I've always been on the Albies train. (No offense Fred) ha

[Enscheff]

This. What sane Braves fan wanted that? And yes, I've always been on the Albies train. (No offense Fred) ha

Clv gonna clv

[bravesfanMatt]

Isn't a little funny to notice that some of the folks screaming how Albies should be considered "untouchable" are the same ones who are at the forefront of the "trade Freeman" discussions - and have been all along?

To be fair FF and Oz are not entirely the same situation. So I am a bit confused by this statement

[Enscheff]

To be fair FF and Oz are not entirely the same situation. So I am a bit confused by this statement

They aren't equivalent in any way.

[clvclv]

I will be the first to admit I was wrong. I wanted to trade Freeman during the firesale. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm glad we keep him. I just don't know how to feel about him getting older and more prone to injury towards the backend of his contract while we're almost done rebuilding.

There's nothing wrong with that IMO, it just goes further to prove the point that there are even situations in a rebuild that the brass may well wind up having to make someone "untouchable" regardless of the return. For all those who keep saying that's nonsense, it obviously isn't. It's not that the return you might get for someone might not blow you away - it's just that circumstances beyond the return dictate you can't trade a player.The Braves couldn't trade Julio before the new park opened and have Bartolo Colon make that start. They also can't trade Freddie because he means so much to the fanbase and the message doing so would send the message that you don't appreciate them re-signing to players you'd hope to extend on the cheap in the future. Longoria is another of those types of guys. Bryant and Rizzo are likely to be that way in Chicago.

I'm as big on Ozzie as the next guy, but he's simply not a "franchise player" - particularly when you have Ender to lead off and Dansby looking like he may yet live up to at least some expectations realistic people had for him. If Ozzie gets you that true "Ace", you have to listen on him - guys like Freeman, Longo, Rizzo, etc. not so much. It has to be a proven guy - not another prospect since ours are as good as there are - to involve Albies, but to make him off-limits if you're not convinced we already have an "Ace" in the system is crazy.

[Enscheff]

I'd be willing to bet Albies posts a higher fWAR than both Swanson and Inciarte next year (barring injury).

Albies should be untouchable. He always should have been untouchable. I'll definitely ignore clv's brilliant player value analysis though, considering his past track record.

[Jaw]

I don't know that I ever said it publicly, but I really expected Albies to flop. Hopefully he continues to prove me wrong.

[Tapate50]

Albies should absolutely be off limits. He should retire a Brave!

[Southcack77]

I will be the first to admit I was wrong. I wanted to trade Freeman during the firesale. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm glad we keep him. I just don't know how to feel about him getting older and more prone to injury towards the backend of his contract while we're almost done rebuilding.

I think trading Freeman in the fire sale would have made a lot of sense and I'm not sure that what he's done since necessarily means it would have been a huge mistake. The reason to trade him would have been the wasted prime years and the escalating salary as he enters his decline. If he continues to put up strong seasons the salary is fine, but if he doesn't then it might be a tad problematic. But my guess is that it works out fine for Atlanta as far as contract to production.

But maybe they'd have been better off with a package of prospects. I know a lot of folks opinions on that pretty well.

[Russ2dollas]

I'd be willing to bet Albies posts a higher fWAR than both Swanson and Inciarte next year (barring injury).

Albies should be untouchable. He always should have been untouchable. I'll definitely ignore clv's brilliant player value analysis though, considering his past track record.

I love the guy. I would not make him untouchable. I would not have him in the Quintana deal like Coppy did.

His max value should be at SS. If we won't play him there and someone rightly sees him as a potential 5+ WAR SSS we could get a haul. But we shouldn't be trying to win the prospect rankings. IF we got that haul we'd have to get some ready to play and controllable guys. I just don't see that deal out there.

So maybe it's semantics. Obviously I'd trade him for Trout. But he's untouchable for any likely real world deal.

[Russ2dollas]

Left handed oppo shot at 20...we better sign that extension

[The Chosen One]

Albies is untouchable. Plain and simple. We also need him for the Curaçao contingent. We already broke their hearts when we shipped off Simmons. Jurrjens didn't last long. Need Albies to do for us what Andruw did for the youth of Curacao. We want all their best to be Braves fans.

[auyushu]

So maybe it's semantics. Obviously I'd trade him for Trout. But he's untouchable for any likely real world deal.


Yes, it's semantics. He should be untouchable for any realistic deal. He's a guy who could legit be a 4-5 WAR 2B for us for quite some time, you don't trade that unless you have a very good replacement (we don't) and are getting a legit Ace or middle order bat signed long term at a position of need. He should be staying put.

[Deester11]

I'd be willing to bet Albies posts a higher fWAR than both Swanson and Inciarte next year (barring injury).

Albies should be untouchable. He always should have been untouchable. I'll definitely ignore clv's brilliant player value analysis though, considering his past track record.
I agree 100% and said such when he was in Rome! There should have been no doubt...unless you never watched him in person or simply chose to slight him on Hart's half azz support of Ozzie.

[Russ2dollas]

I loved the high five at the plate yesterday after the hr. He had to jump to get to the high 5.

Very fun player to watch.

His base stealing fundamentals and jumps do not look great. The braves are the death of base stealers

[bravesfanMatt]

I loved the high five at the plate yesterday after the hr. He had to jump to get to the high 5.

Very fun player to watch.

His base stealing fundamentals and jumps do not look great. The braves are the death of base stealers

Who on the staff is a great base stealer.

[smootness]

The braves are the death of base stealers

Luckily this isn't really a problem. Weirdly, the Braves seem to have been ahead of the curve on not sending runners much.

[striker42]

With his power developing, Albies reminds me more and more of Jose Altuve, even down to the fact that both are undersized. That doesn't mean Albies is ever going to become the MVP candidate Altuve has been the last two years, but Albies looks like he could very well be Altuve circa 2015.

In 2015, Altuve hit .313 with a .353 OBP and slugged .459 while hitting 15 HRs and swiping 38 bags.

Albies may never steal 38 (especially not in this organization) but I could see him becoming a guy who consistently hits .300+ with 10-15 HRs and an OPS in the low to mid .800s while still stealing a respectable number of bases.

[Tapate50]

Who would think Ozzie would be out OPS'ing the hell out of Heyward in his age 20 season vs Heywards 28 season. Holy crap.

[Super]

Who would think Ozzie would be out OPS'ing the hell out of Heyward in his age 20 season vs Heywards 28 season. Holy crap.

well at 20 no one thought Heyward would be finished as an offensive player at 28.

[sturg33]

Just wanted to remind folks of this gem



No chance that they take that IMO.

I think the idea of trying to pry him away fairly cheaply to help them dump salary makes some sense (on the surface, at least), but they surely aren't crazy enough to give him up for "nothing". I can't imagine that they'd give him up for something other than younger guys/prospects - even if they're not highly thought of - have to at least have the possibility of contributing at some point.

Try this offer...

Albies, Wisler, Ruiz, and Bartolo for Prado and Dee Gordon.

Gordon replaces Albies long-term, and getting Bartolo off the books this year pays for one of the guys we add. More or less breaks down to Wisler and Ruiz for Prado, Albies for Gordon, and the Fish take Big Sexy's money to make it work for us financially - PLUS we get the benefit of plugging Newcomb/Sims into the rotation for the rest of the season to get their feet wet. We could even include Dat Dude if they want to hold off on Albies until next spring.

[The Chosen One]

If Heyward keeps struggling offensively I'd see if the Cubs would eat his salary and bring him here. His swing is still fixable. Problem is I don't trust anyone in our system to fix it. I could fix his swing in 5 minutes.

An Acuna-Inciarte-Heyward outfield could be really good defensively.

[Super]

If Heyward keeps struggling offensively I'd see if the Cubs would eat his salary and bring him here. His swing is still fixable. Problem is I don't trust anyone in our system to fix it. I could fix his swing in 5 minutes.

An Acuna-Inciarte-Heyward outfield could be really good defensively.

if we could get him for what we're paying nick, then fine. more than that and no way. guy can't hit anymore.

[Tapate50]

If Heyward keeps struggling offensively I'd see if the Cubs would eat his salary and bring him here. His swing is still fixable. Problem is I don't trust anyone in our system to fix it. I could fix his swing in 5 minutes.

An Acuna-Inciarte-Heyward outfield could be really good defensively.


BRO.

[bravesfanMatt]

I would take Heyward back at a discounted rate... I love a solid defensive club. Acuna/Ender/Heyward/Ozzie/Swanson/FF are all above average defenders.. add Flowers pitch framing and Jo-Gun/Rio platoon and that is an above average defensive club.. which should help our pitching develop properly.

[The Chosen One]

BRO.

I fix swing mechanics for a living now. We've come full circle in the last 15 years.

[Deester11]

Just wanted to remind folks of this gem
Enscheff said it best...Clv gonna Clv. Yuck!

[smootness]

Just wanted to remind folks of this gem

Wow.

[cajunrevenge]

I bet if we traded for Heywood at this point he would have a monster year then opt out.

[Horsehide Harry]

Just wanted to remind folks of this gem

Well, I don't agree with Clv on much of anything and at the time of the quoted post and now, I think the above proposal was not good, no real fit or goal, detrimental both short and long term. I will however take up for him a bit because at least he had the guts to put his thoughts out for all to see. Too many on this board appear to be willing to sit back and slam the posts and thoughts of others but not be willing to post and defend what they would do instead.

It's easy to be a permanent critic when you never open yourself to criticism.

So, yeah, dumb trade idea. But, good on Clv for being willing to go out on a limb.

[Deester11]

Well, I don't agree with Clv on much of anything and at the time of the quoted post and now, I think the above proposal was not good, no real fit or goal, detrimental both short and long term. I will however take up for him a bit because at least he had the guts to put his thoughts out for all to see. Too many on this board appear to be willing to sit back and slam the posts and thoughts of others but not be willing to post and defend what they would do instead.

It's easy to be a permanent critic when you never open yourself to criticism.

So, yeah, dumb trade idea. But, good on Clv for being willing to go out on a limb. Many people on here open themselves up. I can't totally agree with this post. The point is to interject thought provoking discussion. Some people just go further than others.

[mfree80]

Well, I don't agree with Clv on much of anything and at the time of the quoted post and now, I think the above proposal was not good, no real fit or goal, detrimental both short and long term. I will however take up for him a bit because at least he had the guts to put his thoughts out for all to see. Too many on this board appear to be willing to sit back and slam the posts and thoughts of others but not be willing to post and defend what they would do instead.

It's easy to be a permanent critic when you never open yourself to criticism.

So, yeah, dumb trade idea. But, good on Clv for being willing to go out on a limb.

Well, I don't agree with Harry much... but in this case he is correct. I know I am much more careful about how I word things after having been ridiculed a few times a while back. I should be willing to go out on a limb a little more often.

[Carp]

Well, I don't agree with Clv on much of anything and at the time of the quoted post and now, I think the above proposal was not good, no real fit or goal, detrimental both short and long term. I will however take up for him a bit because at least he had the guts to put his thoughts out for all to see. Too many on this board appear to be willing to sit back and slam the posts and thoughts of others but not be willing to post and defend what they would do instead.

It's easy to be a permanent critic when you never open yourself to criticism.

So, yeah, dumb trade idea. But, good on Clv for being willing to go out on a limb.

Kyrie Irving had some guts too when he publicly said he thought the Earth was flat.
Putting yourself out there is ok..... but some ideas, you should just keep to yourself.

[BeanieAntics]

Kyrie Irving had some guts too when he publicly said he thought the Earth was flat.
Putting yourself out there is ok..... but some ideas, you should just keep to yourself.

Was literally just about to make the flat earth argument as well lol

[steveAKAslick]

Was literally just about to make the flat earth argument as well lol

Speaking of flat earth, this cracked me the hell up the other day...still don't know how to post damn pics on here, I've tried everything but here's the link

http://imgur.com/pZex239

[jpx7]

Speaking of flat earth, this cracked me the hell up the other day...still don't know how to post damn pics on here, I've tried everything but here's the link

http://imgur.com/pZex239

https://i.imgur.com/pZex239.jpg

Just use url_here to insert images.

[BeanieAntics]

Speaking of flat earth, this cracked me the hell up the other day...still don't know how to post damn pics on here, I've tried everything but here's the link

http://imgur.com/pZex239

I lol'd... Anyway, back to Albies. I'm usually pretty conservative with my expectations of prospects, but damn he has looked good. Kind of a weird side note: I've seen bWAR and fWAR come to different conclusions about players, but they are way apart on Albies. .7 bWAR and a 1.4 fWAR. Thought it was kind of odd

[Tapate50]

That whole page was hilarious

[steveAKAslick]

https://i.imgur.com/pZex239.jpg

Just use url_here to insert images.

Thanks! I could have swore that was the first thing I tried since that's the old message board command prompts

[steveAKAslick]

I lol'd... Anyway, back to Albies. I'm usually pretty conservative with my expectations of prospects, but damn he has looked good. Kind of a weird side note: I've seen bWAR and fWAR come to different conclusions about players, but they are way apart on Albies. .7 bWAR and a 1.4 fWAR. Thought it was kind of odd

Well one is Fangraphs and the other baseball reference but I'm guessing you knew that...For position players I'd go with fWAR..bWAR uses the more advanced system for defensive statistics...fWAR is a better metric for pitchers too imo...as long as you understand what each of them offer I guess it doesn't matter too much...given the track record of Fangraphs vs BREF I'd go with Fangraphs though...I could be wrong though, Enscheff could probably shed more light on it than me

This is why I prefer fWAR for hitters 100%
Ozzie Albies 40 games: 0.7 bWAR, 1.5 fWAR
Moncada 38 games: 0.9 bWAR, 0.6 fWAR

[BeanieAntics]

Well one is Fangraphs and the other baseball reference but I'm guessing you knew that...For position players I'd go with fWAR..bWAR uses the more advanced system for defensive statistics...fWAR is a better metric for pitchers too imo...as long as you understand what each of them offer I guess it doesn't matter too much...given the track record of Fangraphs vs BREF I'd go with Fangraphs though...I could be wrong though, Enscheff could probably shed more light on it than me

Oh no the reasoning is almost always defensive if B-R and FG come to different conclusions about position players. B-R uses DRS while FG uses UZR (I actually prefer UZR). That is definitely the reason why they differ on Ozzie. The only reason I noticed the difference was a twitter argument last night comparing Moncada and Ozzie's production so far lol

[steveAKAslick]

Oh no the reasoning is almost always defensive if B-R and FG come to different conclusions about position players. B-R uses DRS while FG uses UZR (I actually prefer UZR). That is definitely the reason why they differ on Ozzie. The only reason I noticed the difference was a twitter argument last night comparing Moncada and Ozzie's production so far lol

Haha that's exactly what I was referencing in my edit...we must follow the same dude/seen the same Twitter argument with Everything White Sox last night

[BeanieAntics]

Haha that's exactly what I was referencing in my edit...we must follow the same dude/seen the same Twitter argument with Everything White Sox last night

I was right in the middle of that argument haha. I definitely had to go and double check bc it was so drastic between FG and B-R for Moncada and Ozzie.

[steveAKAslick]

I was right in the middle of that argument haha. I definitely had to go and double check bc it was so drastic between FG and B-R for Moncada and Ozzie.

Haha @BravesCody is great, he would fit right in here

[GovClintonTyree]

If Heyward keeps struggling offensively I'd see if the Cubs would eat his salary and bring him here. His swing is still fixable. Problem is I don't trust anyone in our system to fix it. I could fix his swing in 5 minutes.

An Acuna-Inciarte-Heyward outfield could be really good defensively.

Do tell. I've thought I had an idea of what would fix him.

[Freshmaker]

If Heyward keeps struggling offensively I'd see if the Cubs would eat his salary and bring him here. His swing is still fixable. Problem is I don't trust anyone in our system to fix it. I could fix his swing in 5 minutes.

An Acuna-Inciarte-Heyward outfield could be really good defensively.

:pound:

[The Chosen One]

Do tell. I've thought I had an idea of what would fix him.

His timing right now is horrendous. It's not physical it's mental. His pitch recognition is still very good.

I'd first try to raise the back elbow in the stance-pre swing. Hands are too low right now. Hip turn is too soon, hip rotation is not aligned with his wrists at contact point, so the natural effect is him rolling over the top of the ball into a weak grounder, especially on pitches over the outer half of the plate. He keeps screwing the weight transfer. When your hips are exposed too soon you end up wasting the potential kinetic chain and you end up only using wrist or muscling the ball with arms. He exposes the hips so soon sometimes it also screws with his balance. For low pitches it's do or die. He either golfs it or rolls over. A bit more difficult to explain over words. Something I'm better physically demonstrating in person.

[Carp]

Well one is Fangraphs and the other baseball reference but I'm guessing you knew that...For position players I'd go with fWAR..bWAR uses the more advanced system for defensive statistics...fWAR is a better metric for pitchers too imo...as long as you understand what each of them offer I guess it doesn't matter too much...given the track record of Fangraphs vs BREF I'd go with Fangraphs though...I could be wrong though, Enscheff could probably shed more light on it than me

This is why I prefer fWAR for hitters 100%
Ozzie Albies 40 games: 0.7 bWAR, 1.5 fWAR
Moncada 38 games: 0.9 bWAR, 0.6 fWAR

I'm actually the opposite for the most part. fWAR for pitchers is trash, imo. And not a fan of bWAR for hitters.

[JxnMissFan]

His timing right now is horrendous. It's not physical it's mental. His pitch recognition is still very good.

I'd first try to raise the back elbow in the stance-pre swing. Hands are too low right now. Hip turn is too soon, hip rotation is not aligned with his wrists at contact point, so the natural effect is him rolling over the top of the ball into a weak grounder, especially on pitches over the outer half of the plate. He keeps screwing the weight transfer. When your hips are exposed too soon you end up wasting the potential kinetic chain and you end up only using wrist or muscling the ball with arms. He exposes the hips so soon sometimes it also screws with his balance. For low pitches it's do or die. He either golfs it or rolls over. A bit more difficult to explain over words. Something I'm better physically demonstrating in person.

I think you covered it all in the first paragraph. The second paragraph imo is what's wrong with him. He appears to be trying to break every piece of his swing down to the point it has screwed him up.

The genius Cubs screwed him up. I believe they felt like they needed to make him a 30 hr guy to justify the 180 mil. I think he could become a league average hitter again with a different team.

[The Chosen One]

I think you covered it all in the first paragraph. The second paragraph imo is what's wrong with him. He appears to be trying to break every piece of his swing down to the point it has screwed him up.

The genius Cubs screwed him up. I believe they felt like they needed to make him a 30 hr guy to justify the 180 mil. I think he could become a league average hitter again with a different team.

I disagree about him over analyzing. He's always has flaws even when he was producing solid numbers with us. But you can only rely on raw athleticism to mask mediocre mechanics for so long.

He could easily be a 20-25 homer guy still. He just needs the right guy. I never agreed with it but Chipper used to always rely on his dad when slumping. I always wondered if the actual hitting coaches felt slighted by it. But hey it actually worked for Chipper. Heyward doesn't need a hitting coach he needs a personal coach to clean up his mechanics. He's a very smart guy in general. That's a guy who has the work ethic to solve it just needs the right direction.

[auyushu]

Well, I don't agree with Harry much... but in this case he is correct. I know I am much more careful about how I word things after having been ridiculed a few times a while back. I should be willing to go out on a limb a little more often.

There is going out on a limb, and then there is diving off the top of a Redwood tree with no parachute. Clv typically falls in the latter category. Everyone says stuff they regret or makes claims that make them look dumb from time to time, it's when you do it over and over again and never learn from your mistakes that it become problematic I think.

[auyushu]

I fix swing mechanics for a living now. We've come full circle in the last 15 years.

Nice to see all that swing analysis you used to do as a middle/high school student back in the day paid off.

[sturg33]

There is going out on a limb, and then there is diving off the top of a Redwood tree with no parachute. Clv typically falls in the latter category. Everyone says stuff they regret or makes claims that make them look dumb from time to time, it's when you do it over and over again and never learn from your mistakes that it become problematic I think.

Clv talks down to the statheads but posts **** like this all the time

[The Chosen One]

Nice to see all that swing analysis you used to do as a middle/high school student back in the day paid off.

Yep! That was definitely one of the memes back in the old Scout days. My obsession with Chipper's left-handed swing. Now I make a comfortable living coaching mechanics!

Granted, I do not coach baseball, I coach tennis. The thing is though, there are tons of crossover movements and mechanics between the two sports. A serve in tennis, is roughly the equivalent of an outfielder in baseball unloading on a throw to homeplate. One of the things I do actually when I coach juniors in tennis, I get their parents to buy a baseball glove for their dominant hand, not their non-dominant hand. I teach them how to properly throw a baseball before I teach them how to hit an overhead serve with a tennis racket. This way they can learn to properly turn, load back and transfer the weight and extend the arm on the throw. We play catch for a few weeks to build up arm strength then I go for teaching them a proper serve. The reason I make them purchase the glove for their throwing hand, is when you play tennis your racquet is always going to be in your dominant hand regardless. So tracking a ball from my hand to their glove is similar to them tracking the ball from my racquet to their dominant hand side. Hitting a forehand in tennis is very similar to a sidearm throw from an infielder. Hitting a two-handed backhand for a righty is almost the exact same as a a left-handed baseball swing (with two hands).

I actually wish I learned tennis before baseball. I didn't pick up Tennis until after I injured my shoulder playing baseball. Baseball will always be my first love, but if I learned tennis first I could have been a much better baseball player. All of the explosive lateral movements, core work, torso mechanics etc. would make you play defense like Andrelton Simmons. He's so good because he goes for efficiency (like sliding into a backhand grab then popping up to throw whereas most shortstops would scoop up the ball on the backhand side, keep their momentum going right while trying to throw across their body to first. The latter play while pretty, requires a more disproportionate mechanical chain compared to Tron sliding and popping up with his body momentum either neutral or going towards first. Andrelton's method is more sound mechanically which means less chance of getting injured).

[Prikichi]

Schoop's the man around here at the moment

[GovClintonTyree]

His timing right now is horrendous. It's not physical it's mental. His pitch recognition is still very good.

I'd first try to raise the back elbow in the stance-pre swing. Hands are too low right now. Hip turn is too soon, hip rotation is not aligned with his wrists at contact point, so the natural effect is him rolling over the top of the ball into a weak grounder, especially on pitches over the outer half of the plate. He keeps screwing the weight transfer. When your hips are exposed too soon you end up wasting the potential kinetic chain and you end up only using wrist or muscling the ball with arms. He exposes the hips so soon sometimes it also screws with his balance. For low pitches it's do or die. He either golfs it or rolls over. A bit more difficult to explain over words. Something I'm better physically demonstrating in person.

Right, right. I think he lets the ball get on him, it's too deep. I also think it's a result of his vulnerability to inside pitches, which dates back as early as I remember. He clears his hips early in order to reach low and in. Then his kinetic chain is broken and his core is gone. In tennis terms, he needs to take it out front.

Look at Albies. Everything out front. Now, some say (and will continue to say) he hits too many fly balls. Perhaps, but he's got a little uppercut and his hands are quick. Among the quickest I've seen. But his timing is excellent.

Heyward has had a rotational swing for some time now, and his arms are as long as some people's legs. If he's ever going to take the ball out front, he needs to take his hands directly to the ball, not out-and-around. That's why he seems so damn slow. Hands directly to the ball, then let the hips fire on their own. Really, he needs to trust his hands on the inside pitch. He doesn't because it takes too long to get there. Allies is almost the opposite. A small man better have clean mechanics to hit the ball with authority, and he does.

If Albies had Heyward's body, he'd be a 50-HR guy. If Heyward had Albies' mechanics, so would he.

[GovClintonTyree]

Oh no the reasoning is almost always defensive if B-R and FG come to different conclusions about position players. B-R uses DRS while FG uses UZR (I actually prefer UZR). That is definitely the reason why they differ on Ozzie. The only reason I noticed the difference was a twitter argument last night comparing Moncada and Ozzie's production so far lol

How will DRS and UZR be impacted by Statcast, if at all? Or is there a new defensive metric that will be borne of Statcast data?

[GovClintonTyree]

I think you covered it all in the first paragraph. The second paragraph imo is what's wrong with him. He appears to be trying to break every piece of his swing down to the point it has screwed him up.

The genius Cubs screwed him up. I believe they felt like they needed to make him a 30 hr guy to justify the 180 mil. I think he could become a league average hitter again with a different team.

He was struggling with this way before the Cubs got ahold of him. He really started losing his way after his rookie year.

And he shares some, probably the lion's share, of the blame for his struggles. He's a smart guy, analytical, and he's a tinkerer. He tinkered his way out of a really nice career.

He could get it back. He's young enough. But he needs a swing doctor - one swing doctor - to implement a philosophy that gets him back to good timing and kinetic chain. He's listened to too many people and his swing is just a train wreck at this point.

[clvclv]

Well, I don't agree with Clv on much of anything and at the time of the quoted post and now, I think the above proposal was not good, no real fit or goal, detrimental both short and long term. I will however take up for him a bit because at least he had the guts to put his thoughts out for all to see. Too many on this board appear to be willing to sit back and slam the posts and thoughts of others but not be willing to post and defend what they would do instead.

It's easy to be a permanent critic when you never open yourself to criticism.

So, yeah, dumb trade idea. But, good on Clv for being willing to go out on a limb.

Kinda the point of throwing crazy ideas out there - there's no "discussion" if somebody doesn't start somewhere. The list of folks here who fall into the "I told you so, but have never come up with an off-the-wall idea" category is longer than your arm. It's always funny to hear them criticize others. I probably wouldn't make 75% or more of the trades I've mentioned here if I were Coppy...of course, I'm not Coppy.

When there's discussion, jump in with ideas - otherwise continue to prove that you're a follower.

[Enscheff]

Kinda the point of throwing crazy ideas out there - there's no "discussion" if somebody doesn't start somewhere. The list of folks here who fall into the "I told you so, but have never come up with an off-the-wall idea" category is longer than your arm. It's always funny to hear them criticize others. I probably wouldn't make 75% or more of the trades I've mentioned here if I were Coppy...of course, I'm not Coppy.

When there's discussion, jump in with ideas - otherwise continue to prove that you're a follower.

There has been plenty of discussion around here that hasn't started out with a stupid idea.

As you descend further and further into strupidity, more and more members of the board are calling you out for being a know-nothing.

It's great entertainment. Please keep it up!

[jimsnores]

Back to discussion about Albies, I was listening to/watching TV today, and I think it was MLB, though it might not have been. They were slobbering like crazy over Devers, doing amazing things at 20. I am admittedly a Braves homer, but I found their discussion short-sighted in that they didn't mention how similarly he and Albies have performed. Their implication was that he was unique among twenty year-olds in the league. Below are their current stat lines:



2 Ozzie Albies ATL 157 27 46 8 5 4 21 3 1 18 28 .293 .365 .484 .849 0.8
3 Rafael Devers BOS 170 29 49 9 0 8 20 3 1 16 44 .288 .349 .482 .832 1.1

(I tried to type in the headings, but it didn't work when I posted. These are traditional states.)


Devers is great. What does that make Albies?

[Enscheff]

It makes Albies not on the east coast.

[JxnMissFan]

As far as the media is concerned the only good young players play for the Nats, Yanks, Red Sox and Cubs. Everyone else is just a wanna be.

[thewupk]

How will DRS and UZR be impacted by Statcast, if at all? Or is there a new defensive metric that will be borne of Statcast data?

Eventually it will be replaced. I think you will first see it for outfielders as that is where most of the statcast stuff is right now.

[thewupk]

Back to discussion about Albies, I was listening to/watching TV today, and I think it was MLB, though it might not have been. They were slobbering like crazy over Devers, doing amazing things at 20. I am admittedly a Braves homer, but I found their discussion short-sighted in that they didn't mention how similarly he and Albies have performed. Their implication was that he was unique among twenty year-olds in the league. Below are their current stat lines:



2 Ozzie Albies ATL 157 27 46 8 5 4 21 3 1 18 28 .293 .365 .484 .849 0.8
3 Rafael Devers BOS 170 29 49 9 0 8 20 3 1 16 44 .288 .349 .482 .832 1.1

(I tried to type in the headings, but it didn't work when I posted. These are traditional states.)


Devers is great. What does that make Albies?

People see the homers. 8 in your first 40 games at age 20 is impressive. But looking farther I am much more impressed with Albies skill set so far.

Slightly better walk rate, way lower K%, and plays better defense. Both are posting above average power at age 20 as well. Who knows how both careers will shake out but I would almost always take the guy who's doing better in walks, k's, and defense.

[clvclv]

Hey genius - was that in a thread discussing a thread asking who you'd trade Albies for?

Did you answer?

If you could trade Wisler and Bartolo's money for Prado at the time of the discussion, would you?

You understand there's a time-factor when these discussions take place, right? You're aware Ozzie didn't have 157 MLB PAs at that point, right?

I'd look for your ideas, but I've yet to see one.

[bravesfanMatt]

Hey genius - was that in a thread discussing a thread asking who you'd trade Albies for?

Did you answer?

If you could trade Wisler and Bartolo's money for Prado at the time of the discussion, would you?

You understand there's a time-factor when these discussions take place, right? You're aware Ozzie didn't have 157 MLB PAs at that point, right?

I'd look for your ideas, but I've yet to see one.


whoa man.. don't let a message board get you riled up. If you suggested a bad trade, then own it and have fun with it. don't get mad cause some might rib you for it. And if a comment was posted out of context, then still own it.. Just remember, this place is just a cool escape to have fun and not take things too serious.

[clvclv]

whoa man.. don't let a message board get you riled up. If you suggested a bad trade, then own it and have fun with it. don't get mad cause some might rib you for it. And if a comment was posted out of context, then still own it.. Just remember, this place is just a cool escape to have fun and not take things too serious.

Doesn't bother me in the least - pretty much the point.

Those bothered enough to whine about out of context *hit from months ago are the funny ones.

If that's the craziest *hit I've thrown up against the wall when people were having ridiculous hypothetical conversations, somebody's missed at least one or two (insert sarcastic emoji here since no one can detect them).

Of course, I'd bet sturg has 3 or 4 links to others saved to cover his lack of off the wall ideas.

[sturg33]

Doesn't bother me in the least - pretty much the point.

Those bothered enough to whine about out of context *hit from months ago are the funny ones.

If that's the craziest *hit I've thrown up against the wall when people were having ridiculous hypothetical conversations, somebody's missed at least one or two (insert sarcastic emoji here since no one can detect them).

Of course, I'd bet sturg has 3 or 4 links to others saved to cover his lack of off the wall ideas.

Sorry, but Albies for Dee Gordon was so stupid and so short sighted that you were rightfully criticized for it at the time.

Wanna hear my idea? Don't trade Albies. He is our best prospect and is going to be a stud.

[nsacpi]

a couple things seem obvious for any discussion board

1) outside the box ideas are to be welcomed

2) criticism and even ridiculing of any ideas is to be expected

3) let's not be so sensitive...this ain't a safe zone...rough play is to be expected

[thethe]

a couple things seem obvious for any discussion board

1) outside the box ideas are to be welcomed

2) criticism and even ridiculing of any ideas is to be expected

3) let's not be so sensitive...this ain't a safe zone...rough play is to be expected

Great rules to live by and not just a forum guideline.

[smootness]

Sorry, but Albies for Dee Gordon was so stupid and so short sighted that you were rightfully criticized for it at the time.

Wanna hear my idea? Don't trade Albies. He is our best prospect and is going to be a stud.

That's the hottest take on this board in quite a while.

[nsacpi]

I lol'd... Anyway, back to Albies. I'm usually pretty conservative with my expectations of prospects, but damn he has looked good. Kind of a weird side note: I've seen bWAR and fWAR come to different conclusions about players, but they are way apart on Albies. .7 bWAR and a 1.4 fWAR. Thought it was kind of odd

there has been a convergence. bWAR now 1.3 and fWAR 1.6

let's call it 1.5 in a third of a season

doesn't imply that 4.5 is likely next year, but pretty impressive

[msstate7]

there has been a convergence. bWAR now 1.3 and fWAR 1.6

let's call it 1.5 in a third of a season

doesn't imply that 4.5 is likely next year, but pretty impressive

I say right around 3.0 next season

[thewupk]

there has been a convergence. bWAR now 1.3 and fWAR 1.6

let's call it 1.5 in a third of a season

doesn't imply that 4.5 is likely next year, but pretty impressive

Sometimes it takes awhile for certain defensive numbers to catch up. At one point UZR had Albies as +3 runs while DRS had him at 0 runs. That's pretty significant in such a low amount of games. Now it's +3 for UZR and +2 for DRS.

Albies looks like the real deal defensively. Real deal defenders up the middle can be WAR machines with even a little bit of offense.

[thethe]

Can we all just agree the braves should sign him to a 10 year mega deal?

[Russ2dollas]

Can we all just agree the braves should sign him to a 10 year mega deal?

yes. 10/100 right now like I said before. 10 million every year. Spend the money on him and not some washed up starter. He still gets to be a free agent at 30.

[smootness]

yes. 10/100 right now like I said before. 10 million every year. Spend the money on him and not some washed up starter. He still gets to be a free agent at 30.

I seriously doubt he would take that.

[Southcack77]

I seriously doubt he would take that.

I can tell you that I would in his shoes.

I think it would actually be dumb to offer it.

[smootness]

I can tell you that I would in his shoes.

I think it would actually be dumb to offer it.

$10 million in 5-6 years is going to be worth very little in regard to MLB contracts. He will make $10 million/year before he even hits FA, and his FA deal will easily surpass that total. Why would he take it?

You can say you would take it, but the bottom line is, you're not a 20-year-old baseball phenom with a real chance to make quite a bit more than that over the next 10 years. That's where Albies is. It's easy for fans to say, 'It's guaranteed money, why not take it?' Well, because the odds of him making a lot more than that over that span are pretty good.

You realize that if he just turns into a 2 WAR player, that would still be a huge steal for his age 27-30 years? And that would be if he is kind of a bust of sorts.

[nsacpi]

This is what Ender signed for after a 3.7 win season. He would have hit free agency after 2020.

Ender Inciarte cf
5 years/$30.525M (2017-21), plus 2022 option

5 years/$30.525M (2017-21), plus 2022 club option
signed extension with Atlanta 12/23/16 (avoided arbitration)
$3.5M signing bonus
17:$2M, 18:$4M, 19:$5M, 20:$7M, 21:$8M, 22:$9M club option ($1.025M buyout)

[Enscheff]

This is what Ender signed for after a 3 win season. He would have hit free agency after 2020.

Ender Inciarte cf
5 years/$30.525M (2017-21), plus 2022 option

5 years/$30.525M (2017-21), plus 2022 club option
signed extension with Atlanta 12/23/16 (avoided arbitration)
$3.5M signing bonus
17:$2M, 18:$4M, 19:$5M, 20:$7M, 21:$8M, 22:$9M club option ($1.025M buyout)

Ender signed away seasons that don't tend to pay well in arbitration. Albies is going to have a lot more of his value wrapped up in offensive numbers that will pay better in arbitration.

As I wrote here: http://www.chopcountry.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7384

an Albies extension signed this offseason probably looks like...

Offer him 6/25 (which includes a $2M signing bonus) with 1-3 option years valued at $15M each tacked on at the end, each with a $5M buyout. That guarantees Albies $30M, gets him some cash up front he never got when he signed, and allows him to still become a FA before his age 30 season (how young he is depending on how many options the Braves get him to agree to).

If they wait until next offseason the cost goes up.

[Southcack77]

$10 million in 5-6 years is going to be worth very little in regard to MLB contracts. He will make $10 million/year before he even hits FA, and his FA deal will easily surpass that total. Why would he take it?

You can say you would take it, but the bottom line is, you're not a 20-year-old baseball phenom with a real chance to make quite a bit more than that over the next 10 years. That's where Albies is. It's easy for fans to say, 'It's guaranteed money, why not take it?' Well, because the odds of him making a lot more than that over that span are pretty good.

You realize that if he just turns into a 2 WAR player, that would still be a huge steal for his age 27-30 years? And that would be if he is kind of a bust of sorts.

He's a 20 year from an impoverished country that didn't get much money to sign and has less than half a season of major league experience.

The braves have no obligation to pay him anything and it's entirely possible thatthey might suddenly discover he can't hit a slider.

There is no need for them to take on risk or immediate payroll for a player that is years away from arbitration.

I think it would be dumb.

[smootness]

He's a 20 year from an impoverished country that didn't get much money to sign and has less than half a season of major league experience.

The braves have no obligation to pay him anything and it's entirely possible thatthey might suddenly discover he can't hit a slider.

There is no need for them to take on risk or immediate payroll for a player that is years away from arbitration.

I think it would be dumb.

Did I say the Braves had an obligation to pay him or that they would?

I just said I doubt he takes that offer. I might or might not if I were in his shoes, but I think he will end up making significantly more than that.

[Russ2dollas]

Did I say the Braves had an obligation to pay him or that they would?

I just said I doubt he takes that offer. I might or might not if I were in his shoes, but I think he will end up making significantly more than that.

What Enscheff posted is probably right. Maybe a little more money. And I'd do that deal. I LOVE team options. Don't care if you go out to his age 35 season with a 30 million team option. Options give us control but keep us off the hook.

My offer is more of a thought exercise. These things always escalate. Right now the Braves have some money to spend (IMO) and nobody worth spending it on (IMO). I think 5 years from now we will have young guys we want to keep and the money will be tighter. So I would pay more now to avoid having to pay it later.

As far as 10/100....I'd put that fat 100 million in front of a guy that signed for 100K and make him turn it down. Yes he could be a 4 win player and that would be peanuts, that's the only reason we would consider guaranteeing that much money. But right now he's 20 and getting 500K. He's on a slow escalation. That's a lot of money for most people but if he wants to really live it up while he's young, single and famous then 10 million vs 500K now might make a lot of sense. 10 year deal still gets him out at 30. He's still as small speed guy. Speed is the first thing that goes with age and injury. He's not a power guy and that is still what arbitration rewards.

I say the same thing with Dansby. If I'm him I want my 10 million now as I court models and actresses. If I hit then I'll be underpaid. If I'm underpaid the fans will love me. IF I'm a successful athlete, loved by my fans, and a good looking white boy I will make so much money off the field that I really don't care. If I suck I have 100 million dollars. Sign me up.

[Southcack77]

[QUOTE=smootness;433763]Did I say the Braves had an obligation to pay him or that they would?

Jose Altuve is going to make about 25 million dollars, I think, in his first six years as a professional assuming nothing changes before free agency.
Ozzie Albies would make 50 million dollars over the same time frame in this hypothetical.

While Altuve certainly might do better than 5/75 million on his next deal, Jose Altuve is Jose Altuve. And maybe he doesn't.


I don't know Albies story. Maybe he is independently wealthy. But maybe his family's net worth is whatever he has left over from whatever portion of the signing bonus actually went to him. If he comes from poverty, singing a 100 million dollar guaranteed contract that will leave you a free agent at 30 would be in my view something you have to consider very strongly. Particularly when he hasn't yet proved himself to be an all star any more than Dansby Swanson proved himself one last summer.


I'm guessing that an agent would not let him sign that long of a deal, though I'm sure he'd rush to guarantee some pre-arb dollars. The contract isn't realistic most probably.

But in this particular situation I think it would be a entirely sensible thing to do to sign the deal if you are the player and crazy to offer that deal if you are the team.

[Jay212033]

I seriously doubt he would take that.

He'd be crazy not to imo!

[Enscheff]

10/100 is interesting as a thought experiment. It isn't anything that's even remotely plausible though.

Albies will not sign an extension that locks him up past his age 29 season. The Braves are not going to give $100M to a 20 year old with a couple months of MLB PAs.

The most probable extension revolves around the Braves making Albies filthy rich by assuming the risk of guaranteeing his arbitration years in exchange for 1-3 FA option years at a fairly significant discount, while still allowing him to reach FA before he turns 30 so he can shoot for a 9 figure contract that sets up his family for the rest of time.

$30M for an MLB team is a lot less important than $30M for a guy that isn't already rich...which is why these extensions ever happen at all.

[BeanieAntics]

He's a 20 year from an impoverished country that didn't get much money to sign and has less than half a season of major league experience.

The braves have no obligation to pay him anything and it's entirely possible thatthey might suddenly discover he can't hit a slider.

There is no need for them to take on risk or immediate payroll for a player that is years away from arbitration.

I think it would be dumb.

Except the possible benefit of locking him up for a few years beyond arbitration at a bargain price. That could be hugely beneficial. Is there risk in extending a player so young and inexperienced? Of course there is. But that is where your internal scouting comes in. If you really believe in Ozzie, I think you do everything you can to lock him up long term for as cheaply as possible. Enscheff's deal looks really good to me

[smootness]

Jose Altuve is going to make about 25 million dollars, I think, in his first six years as a professional assuming nothing changes before free agency.
Ozzie Albies would make 50 million dollars over the same time frame in this hypothetical.

While Altuve certainly might do better than 5/75 million on his next deal, Jose Altuve is Jose Altuve. And maybe he doesn't.


I don't know Albies story. Maybe he is independently wealthy. But maybe his family's net worth is whatever he has left over from whatever portion of the signing bonus actually went to him. If he comes from poverty, singing a 100 million dollar guaranteed contract that will leave you a free agent at 30 would be in my view something you have to consider very strongly. Particularly when he hasn't yet proved himself to be an all star any more than Dansby Swanson proved himself one last summer.


I'm guessing that an agent would not let him sign that long of a deal, though I'm sure he'd rush to guarantee some pre-arb dollars. The contract isn't realistic most probably.

But in this particular situation I think it would be a entirely sensible thing to do to sign the deal if you are the player and crazy to offer that deal if you are the team.

He is going to completely blow that out of the water. And he signed an extension in 2013.

Eduardo Nunez isn't anything close to what Albies will likely be, and he got $4.4 million in his last arbitration season. Didi Gregorius, who is only now roughly as valuable as Albies could be immediately, got over $5 million in the 2nd of 4 arbitration years for him. Consider that by the time Albies hits arbitration, it'll be 3 more years down the road with a further increase in the market, and he likely will have shown sustained value already, and I could pretty easily see him getting something like $6-7 million in his first year of arbitration, with it increasing to 10+ by the time he hits FA. So if he's looking at this intelligently, he'd only be making more money in the first 4-5 years and only significantly more in the first 3, and he'd be making way, way less in the final 4 and could push himself into the territory in which he starts to decline. A guy like him at 30 isn't getting near what he would if he hit the FA market at 26.

I just don't think the guarantee would be enough to get him to sign it. I probably wouldn't if I were him.

[Enscheff]

[QUOTE=smootness;433763]Did I say the Braves had an obligation to pay him or that they would?

Jose Altuve is going to make about 25 million dollars, I think, in his first six years as a professional assuming nothing changes before free agency.
Ozzie Albies would make 50 million dollars over the same time frame in this hypothetical.

While Altuve certainly might do better than 5/75 million on his next deal, Jose Altuve is Jose Altuve. And maybe he doesn't.


I don't know Albies story. Maybe he is independently wealthy. But maybe his family's net worth is whatever he has left over from whatever portion of the signing bonus actually went to him. If he comes from poverty, singing a 100 million dollar guaranteed contract that will leave you a free agent at 30 would be in my view something you have to consider very strongly. Particularly when he hasn't yet proved himself to be an all star any more than Dansby Swanson proved himself one last summer.


I'm guessing that an agent would not let him sign that long of a deal, though I'm sure he'd rush to guarantee some pre-arb dollars. The contract isn't realistic most probably.

But in this particular situation I think it would be a entirely sensible thing to do to sign the deal if you are the player and crazy to offer that deal if you are the team.

See, this is precisely what I mean when I say folks have no clue how these contracts will be valued.

Altuve will make about 4x that 5/75 contract you mentioned.

Altuve's deal starts at Cano's 10/240 and goes up from there based on inflation. Altuve will be a year younger than Cano was, and will have posted even more WAR by then.

Altuve will sign for almost $300M in his next contract. Anyone saying something as silly as 5/75 for Altuve (even hypothetically) has zero clue how to value players, and is probably also equally mistaken when valuing Albies.

[thethe]

Whatever the number is...pay it.

[sturg33]

Unfortunately, we gave up a year of control to get us from the 7th pick to the 8th pick

[thethe]

Unfortunately, we gave up a year of control to get us from the 7th pick to the 8th pick

It will be unfortunate if we lose him before that time but I'm still glad I got to see him play this year. I think deep down you are too.

[sturg33]

It will be unfortunate if we lose him before that time but I'm still glad I got to see him play this year. I think deep down you are too.

Oh he's easily my favorite player... love him. But pissed that this dumb FO:

- Gave up his age 27 season for nothing

- Apparently offered to trade him for Jose Quintana

- Apparently didn't think he was that good anyway (Hart)

[Southcack77]

He is going to completely blow that out of the water. And he signed an extension in 2013.

Eduardo Nunez isn't anything close to what Albies will likely be, and he got $4.4 million in his last arbitration season. Didi Gregorius, who is only now roughly as valuable as Albies could be immediately, got over $5 million in the 2nd of 4 arbitration years for him. Consider that by the time Albies hits arbitration, it'll be 3 more years down the road with a further increase in the market, and he likely will have shown sustained value already, and I could pretty easily see him getting something like $6-7 million in his first year of arbitration, with it increasing to 10+ by the time he hits FA. So if he's looking at this intelligently, he'd only be making more money in the first 4-5 years and only significantly more in the first 3, and he'd be making way, way less in the final 4 and could push himself into the territory in which he starts to decline. A guy like him at 30 isn't getting near what he would if he hit the FA market at 26.

I just don't think the guarantee would be enough to get him to sign it. I probably wouldn't if I were him.


He might not blow it out of the water if he stinks when the contract comes up, but sure.

He signed an extension that will pay him about 25 million total over his first six years. This deal here would pay Albies 50 million over his first six years.

You think it would be a good idea to give Albies a deal that is twice as valuable over its first six years as a player who by every reasonable expectation is better than Albies ever will be?

[nsacpi]

He might not blow it out of the water if he stinks when the contract comes up, but sure.

He signed an extension that will pay him about 25 million total over his first six years. This deal here would pay Albies 50 million over his first six years.

You think it would be a good idea to give Albies a deal that is twice as valuable over its first six years as a player who by every reasonable expectation is better than Albies ever will be?

Albies doesn't have to be as good as Altuve to justify giving him a bigger deal. The Altuve deal is just something that has worked out for the club like no other similar deal ever will.

[Oklahomabrave]

913244929521967104

[msstate7]

913244929521967104

Lol... is sheen a braves' fan?

[thewupk]

He might not blow it out of the water if he stinks when the contract comes up, but sure.

He signed an extension that will pay him about 25 million total over his first six years. This deal here would pay Albies 50 million over his first six years.

You think it would be a good idea to give Albies a deal that is twice as valuable over its first six years as a player who by every reasonable expectation is better than Albies ever will be?

You are comparing Altuve to the player he is now to what he was when he signed that extension.

Altuve had just posted a 1.4 and 0.7 WAR seasons in his first two years. Yes he was in the middle of a great season in 2013 and the Astros did well to lock him up then but he did not sign that extension as one of the best players in baseball. It was also 5 years ago when contracts weren't as crazy as they are now.

Yes 50 million is an overpay for most players in their first 6 years due to the way salaries are kept down due to league min and arbitration rules. However if it's followed up by 4 years of ~40 million of what would be FA years then it's at a Longoria level of a discount if the player is an all-star level guy.

[DirkPiggler]

Lol... is sheen a braves' fan?

I think he's more of a fan of the Reds.

And drugs.

[thethe]

Albies now pacing around 5.8 fWAR. Him and Acuna are going to be fun to watch.

[msstate7]

And drugs.

Aren’t we all?

[Southcack77]

You are comparing Altuve to the player he is now to what he was when he signed that extension.

Altuve had just posted a 1.4 and 0.7 WAR seasons in his first two years. Yes he was in the middle of a great season in 2013 and the Astros did well to lock him up then but he did not sign that extension as one of the best players in baseball. It was also 5 years ago when contracts weren't as crazy as they are now.

Yes 50 million is an overpay for most players in their first 6 years due to the way salaries are kept down due to league min and arbitration rules. However if it's followed up by 4 years of ~40 million of what would be FA years then it's at a Longoria level of a discount if the player is an all-star level guy.


Has Albies played like the player Altuve is now in his first quarter of a season? If not, why would you want to pay him twice as much as Altuve got at the time.

[sturg33]

Has Albies played like the player Altuve is now in his first quarter of a season? If not, why would you want to pay him twice as much as Altuve got at the time.

If the only deals you're willing to sign a release deals that favor the club as much as Altuve's, then you're not going to be very happy with any move

[nsacpi]

Has Albies played like the player Altuve is now in his first quarter of a season? If not, why would you want to pay him twice as much as Altuve got at the time.

At the stage of his career, Albies has performed at a higher level.

[rico43]

Again, let me get this straight. You wanted to hold Albies back for "another year of control." So you want him and Acuna to become free agents at exactly the same time? I think everyone on the board needs to accept the people who advocate this are not paying customers. You cannot attend games and cheer for the Braves if you carry around this messed up mindset.

Liberty media can pay anybody anything it wants to. Any budget they lay out is written in pencil. There is no salary cap, except that which imposed on itself.

[Enscheff]

Again, let me get this straight. You wanted to hold Albies back for "another year of control." So you want him and Acuna to become free agents at exactly the same time? I think everyone on the board needs to accept the people who advocate this are not paying customers. You cannot attend games and cheer for the Braves if you carry around this messed up mindset.

Liberty media can pay anybody anything it wants to. Any budget they lay out is written in pencil. There is no salary cap, except that which imposed on itself.

I wanted them to leave Albies down until next year, and I wanted them to keep Acuna down a year longer than that. I bet I pay more to watch the Braves live in a single season than you've spent your entire life.

I'm able to pay all that money and still look out for what's best long term. It's called being intelligent.

And no, the Braves payroll has nothing to do with Liberty's financial might. The Braves payroll is directly tied to their revenue. Asserting otherwise is pure stupidity.

The FO is rushing the rebuild for one reason...their job security demands it. Any other reason anyone cooks up and tries to sell you is wrong.

[UNCBlue012]

I think we’ll stay pretty steady on course during the off-season. I do think we will end up signing 1-2 legit BP arms, but we’ll probably go into the season with a Teheran, Folty, Newcomb, Gohara, Sims/Fried rotation. I could see us adding a legit bat or arm but only if the right opportunity arises.

To me, we need to go after a legit 3B or TOR arm, but I doubt we do either.

[rico43]

I wanted them to leave Albies down until next year, and I wanted them to keep Acuna down a year longer than that. I bet I pay more to watch the Braves live in a single season than you've spent your entire life.

I'm able to pay all that money and still look out for what's best long term. It's called being intelligent.

And no, the Braves payroll has nothing to do with Liberty's financial might. The Braves payroll is directly tied to their revenue. Asserting otherwise is pure stupidity.

The FO is rushing the rebuild for one reason...their job security demands it. Any other reason anyone cooks up and tries to sell you is wrong.

Hallelujah! I have finally succeeded in having you call me stupid! I was starting to feel left out. FYI: job security has driven just about every decision made in baseball since the days of Honus and Cap.

[Enscheff]

Hallelujah! I have finally succeeded in having you call me stupid! I was starting to feel left out. FYI: job security has driven just about every decision made in baseball since the days of Honus and Cap.

Agreed, but not usually 3 years into a rebuild that should take 5 years. The new ballpark has changed everything.

[Southcack77]

At the stage of his career, Albies has performed at a higher level.


LOL. Ok.

[weso1]

Unfortunately, we gave up a year of control to get us from the 7th pick to the 8th pick

But the good news is that the front office who made this highly questionable decision now are much less likely to make another highly questionable decision in trading Albies for a starting pitcher due to the former highly questionable decision. So in the end it may work out for everyone. In other words I'd trade one less year of Albies for no years of Albies. If the front office was wrong in promoting Albies then it could prevent another bad decision.

[chipchildress]

yep, the braves were actually pretty stupid for promoting freeman so quickly. how many world series rings does he have? none.

a decade of wasted service time.

understanding what a waste of our lives having freeman up with the big club this long is called being intelligent.

[thewupk]

yep, the braves were actually pretty stupid for promoting freeman so quickly. how many world series rings does he have? none.

a decade of wasted service time.

understanding what a waste of our lives having freeman up with the big club this long is called being intelligent.

Good to know you don't understand the difference between promoting a player in a year where you need his help in making the playoffs and one where you are getting a top 10 draft pick.

[Enscheff]

Good to know you don't understand the difference between promoting a player in a year where you need his help in making the playoffs and one where you are getting a top 10 draft pick.

Excellent example of why that dolt is on ignore haha

[Super]

Oh he's easily my favorite player... love him. But pissed that this dumb FO:

- Gave up his age 27 season for nothing

- Apparently offered to trade him for Jose Quintana

- Apparently didn't think he was that good anyway (Hart)

lol