What should our lineup look like next year?

[Slippyjms]

A combination of seeing so much potential in our lineup and our traditional lineup mismanagement made me wonder with Acuna coming up next year what should our lineup look like. I'm thinking something along the lines of

Albies
Acuna
Freeman
Kemp/Adams
Flowers/Suzuki
Inciarte
Camargo
Swanson

What are everyone else's thoughts?

[UNCBlue012]

I think that's probably the most balanced, but we'll likely see Inciarte, Albies, Freeman, Kemp, Acuna, Flowers, Camargo/Ruiz, Swanson.

[Knucksie]

Would be curious to know why you think Marakakis would be more likely to be dealt than Kemp.

Just glad that Lucroy has had a sucky season to finally kill off the board fetish with him. Nevertheless, would expect a couple of areas to be addressed for improvement by trade or FA (3rd and another C). They may get more aggressive in pursuit of that fabled #1 starting P also.

[ixiXSolidXixi]

A combination of seeing so much potential in our lineup and our traditional lineup mismanagement made me wonder with Acuna coming up next year what should our lineup look like. I'm thinking something along the lines of

Albies
Acuna
Freeman
Kemp/Adams
Flowers/Suzuki
Inciarte
Camargo
Swanson

What are everyone else's thoughts?
I believe that's the ideal lineup.

[Horsehide Harry]

I think that's probably the most balanced, but we'll likely see Inciarte, Albies, Freeman, Kemp, Acuna, Flowers, Camargo/Ruiz, Swanson.

Trade Kemp, Camargo, Wisler & Blair to Miami for Stanton (take all his contract), Prado, Brad Zeigler, Junichi Tazawa and Realmuto: Kemp contract for 2018: ~$19M Braves take on: $25M+$13.5M+$9M+$7M+estimated $1M=$55.5M or net(55.5-19)=$36.5M

Braves trade Markakis for salary relief (-$10.5M), decline option on Dickey (-7.5M), lose Colon obligation (-$12.5M), trade Johnson for salary relief (-4.5M), trade Adams ~$1.5M) = -$37M

Braves lineup:

CF Inciarte
2B Albies
1B Freeman
RF Stanton
3B Prado/Ruiz
SS Swanson
C Realmuto/Flowers
LF Acuna

SP: Teheran, Folty, Newcomb, Gohara, reclamation like Eovaldi (Sims, Fried, Allard, Soroka all at AAA)

Pen: Viz, Zeigler, Tazawa, Minter, Winkler, Freeman, Ramirez, Jackson, Krol, Brothers (somebody will be hurt)

Braves take all of Stanton's contract which no one else is (currently) willing to do. Yes, it likely becomes a bad contract in 7-8 years and hampers the flexibility of the team then but trading away young talent now for help now that isn't as expensive hampers the flexibility in the future as well. It's pick your poison. Prado is around for 2 years. Zeigler and Tazawa are gone after 2018 freeing $16M.

From a Marlins standpoint, they get rid of Stanton's contract without having to pay a dime and move the rest in exchange for Kemp. Prado's 2019 is $15M and Kemp's 2019 is about $19M depending on the convoluted LA-SD-ATL-Miami money transfer.

If you want to pump up attendance and bring in the masses then bringin in the HR leader for the ML and the guy who just passed 61 would be a way to do it.

Won't happen though....

[Chico]

Would be curious to know why you think Marakakis would be more likely to be dealt than Kemp.

Just glad that Lucroy has had a sucky season to finally kill off the board fetish with him. Nevertheless, would expect a couple of areas to be addressed for improvement by trade or FA (3rd and another C). They may get more aggressive in pursuit of that fabled #1 starting P also.

I'm not syaing we will, but anyone who was ever interested in Lucroy should be even more interested now in hopes of getting a discount. He's done well since being moved to Colorado. I think he's a very good buy low candidate for someone.

[clvclv]

Trade Kemp, Camargo, Wisler & Blair to Miami for Stanton (take all his contract), Prado, Brad Zeigler, Junichi Tazawa and Realmuto: Kemp contract for 2018: ~$19M Braves take on: $25M+$13.5M+$9M+$7M+estimated $1M=$55.5M or net(55.5-19)=$36.5M

Braves trade Markakis for salary relief (-$10.5M), decline option on Dickey (-7.5M), lose Colon obligation (-$12.5M), trade Johnson for salary relief (-4.5M), trade Adams ~$1.5M) = -$37M

Braves lineup:

CF Inciarte
2B Albies
1B Freeman
RF Stanton
3B Prado/Ruiz
SS Swanson
C Realmuto/Flowers
LF Acuna

SP: Teheran, Folty, Newcomb, Gohara, reclamation like Eovaldi (Sims, Fried, Allard, Soroka all at AAA)

Pen: Viz, Zeigler, Tazawa, Minter, Winkler, Freeman, Ramirez, Jackson, Krol, Brothers (somebody will be hurt)

Braves take all of Stanton's contract which no one else is (currently) willing to do. Yes, it likely becomes a bad contract in 7-8 years and hampers the flexibility of the team then but trading away young talent now for help now that isn't as expensive hampers the flexibility in the future as well. It's pick your poison. Prado is around for 2 years. Zeigler and Tazawa are gone after 2018 freeing $16M.

From a Marlins standpoint, they get rid of Stanton's contract without having to pay a dime and move the rest in exchange for Kemp. Prado's 2019 is $15M and Kemp's 2019 is about $19M depending on the convoluted LA-SD-ATL-Miami money transfer.

If you want to pump up attendance and bring in the masses then bringin in the HR leader for the ML and the guy who just passed 61 would be a way to do it.

Won't happen though....


Because there's no way on God's green earth that Stanton approves a trade to Atlanta unless you double (or maybe even triple) his salary. There's more chance Aaron Judge is in the Braves' OF in 2018.

[clvclv]

As for the OP's question..

Inciarte, Albies, Freeman, Kemp/Adams, Markakis, Flowers, Camargo, Swanson

[Enscheff]

As for the OP's question..

Inciarte, Acuna, Freeman, Kemp/Adams, Markakis, Flowers, Camargo, Swanson

Another brilliant contribution.

Albies didn't earn playing time at 2B over one of those 4 OFers?

[bravesfanMatt]

Because there's no way on God's green earth that Stanton approves a trade to Atlanta unless you double (or maybe even triple) his salary. There's more chance Aaron Judge is in the Braves' OF in 2018.

Why does Stanton have to approve a trade? he doesn't have 10-5 and I don't think he has a no trade... but I could be wrong.

[clvclv]

Why does Stanton have to approve a trade? he doesn't have 10-5 and I don't think he has a no trade... but I could be wrong.

Yes he does.

Giancarlo Stanton rf
13 years/$325M (2015-27), plus 2028 option

13 years/$325M (2015-27), plus 2028 option
signed extension with Miami 11/19/14, avoiding arbitration
15:$6.5M, 16:$9M, 17:$14.5M, 18:$25M, 19:$26M, 20:$26M, 21:$29M, 22:$29M, 23:$32M, 24:$32M, 25:$32M, 26:$29M, 27:$25M, 28:$25M club option ($10M buyout)
Stanton may opt out of contract after 2020 season
full no-trade protection
award bonuses: $50,000 each for Gold Glove, Silver Slugger, All-Star. $0.1M for league MVP. $0.25M for LCS MVP. $0.5M for World Series MVP
perks: right to purchases 8 season tickets annually and stadium luxury suites for 5 games annually
Stanton to donate 1 percent of salaries to Marlins club charity
largest-ever financial guarantee for MLB player
matches Josh Hamilton for contract with highest average annual value for an outfielder
matches Ryan Howard for contract with highest average annual value for player with four-plus years of ML service
1 year/$5.5M (2014)
re-signed by Miami 1/17/14
1 year/$0.537M (2013)
renewed by Miami 3/2/13
1 year/$0.48M (2012)
renewed by Miami 3/2/12
1 year/$0.416M (2011)
renewed by Florida 3/2/11
1 year (2010)
contract purchased by Florida 6/8/10
drafted by Florida 2007 (2-76) (Notre Dame Academy, Sherman Oaks, Calif.)
signed 8/12/07, $0.475M signing bonus
agent: Joel Wolfe, Wasserman Media Group
ML service: 6.118

[Horsehide Harry]

Why does Stanton have to approve a trade? he doesn't have 10-5 and I don't think he has a no trade... but I could be wrong.

Stanton does have a no trade. But, I've not seen anywhere that he would veto a trade to Atlanta. In fact, if you believe the Braves are through the rebuilding process and on the cusp of contending for a while, why wouldn't you want to play there? And, not that this is an overwhelming factor by any means but not insignificant, he supposedly grew up a Braves fan.

[chop2chip]

Because there's no way on God's green earth that Stanton approves a trade to Atlanta unless you double (or maybe even triple) his salary. There's more chance Aaron Judge is in the Braves' OF in 2018.
Triple his salary? Wait what? I'm sure Stanton would be glad to come here for less than $75 million per year.

[clvclv]

Stanton does have a no trade. But, I've not seen anywhere that he would veto a trade to Atlanta. In fact, if you believe the Braves are through the rebuilding process and on the cusp of contending for a while, why wouldn't you want to play there? And, not that this is an overwhelming factor by any means but not insignificant, he supposedly grew up a Braves fan.

So did the following...

Zack Greinke, Chris Archer, Matt Kemp, Madison Bumgarner, Greg Holland, Corey Seager, Kyle Seager, and more than a few others. When are we trading for the ones out of that group that we don't already have?

[clvclv]

Triple his salary? Wait what? I'm sure Stanton would be glad to come here for less than $75 million per year.

Kinda need to get your sarcasm meter checked. The point is, Atlanta has to be so far down the list of where he "wants" to be traded to it's comical.

[Horsehide Harry]

So did the following...

Zack Greinke, Chris Archer, Matt Kemp, Madison Bumgarner, Greg Holland, Corey Seager, Kyle Seager, and more than a few others. When are we trading for the ones out of that group that we don't already have?

Reading comprehension. Get a little and get back to me.

[chop2chip]

Kinda need to get your sarcasm meter checked. The point is, Atlanta has to be so far down the list of where he "wants" to be traded to it's comical.
You are implying that he wants to be in Miami twice as much than he wants to be in Atlanta, which is based on what?

NTC =/= free agent ... his decision is more binary. So, why would he want to play in Miami more than Atlanta? Keep in mind it is rumored that the new Miami ownership group will slash payroll to $75 million.

[clvclv]

You are implying that he wants to be in Miami twice as much than he wants to be in Atlanta, which is based on what?

NTC =/= free agent ... his decision is more binary. So, why would he want to play in Miami more than Atlanta? Keep in mind it is rumored that the new Miami ownership group will slash payroll to $75 million.

Daydreaming is always fun guys - actually believing those things will ever come to fruition is just funny.

[clvclv]

Reading comprehension. Get a little and get back to me.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Is that really you Murph3???

[chop2chip]

Daydreaming is always fun guys - actually believing those things will ever come to fruition is just funny.
Nice deflection, but I didn't say it was likely (nor that I would want the Braves to trade for Stanton).

Please, when you get the chance answer my question.

[clvclv]

Nice deflection, but I didn't say it was likely (nor that I would want the Braves to trade for Stanton).

Please, when you get the chance answer my question.

"Doubling his salary" is obviously a figure of speech. What I'm "implying" is that not only are the Braves not likely ever going to be in a position to take on that contract AND that of the teams that possibly could that Atlanta is likely waaaay down his list of preferred destinations. I'm aware there's no sarcasm sign, but if that wasn't obvious you guys are the ones with comprehension problems. That's more or less what those not living in a fantasy world are aware of.

[Horsehide Harry]

Inquiring minds want to know...

Is that really you Murph3???

Again. Reading comprehension. Get some.

[chop2chip]

"Doubling his salary" is obviously a figure of speech. What I'm "implying" is that not only are the Braves not likely ever going to be in a position to take on that contract AND that of the teams that possibly could that Atlanta is likely waaaay down his list of preferred destinations. I'm aware there's no sarcasm sign, but if that wasn't obvious you guys are the ones with comprehension problems. That's more or less what those not living in a fantasy world are aware of.

The sarcasm issue was dropped. I get it.. figure of speech.

But you are implying that if offered a trade to the Braves he would reject it. This is a hypothetical and I don't see your reason why he would prefer to stay in Miami.

[bravesfanforlife88]

I don't think Stanton would decline the deal. Obviously may have to throw a few perks in. But with suntrust being a hitters park, he could come here and hit behind Inciarte/Albies, Acuna, freeman, put up stupid numbers and hit the market again after the 2020 season. All while the braves are getting close to competitive

[clvclv]

The sarcasm issue was dropped. I get it.. figure of speech.

But you are implying that if offered a trade to the Braves he would reject it. This is a hypothetical and I don't see your reason why he would prefer to stay in Miami.

OK - let's follow through with your hypothetical. If you were offered the "chance" to move to Atlanta OR keep your mansion and lifestyle in Miami (where there is NO state income tax BTW), would you choose Atlanta?

Must be one *ell of a Braves fan - likely bigger than any poster here.

[jcc03004]

Because there's no way on God's green earth that Stanton approves a trade to Atlanta unless you double (or maybe even triple) his salary. There's more chance Aaron Judge is in the Braves' OF in 2018.

Ummm why wouldnt he ? Just curious

[cajunrevenge]

Inciarte
Acuna
Albies
Freeman
Kemp
Camaro
Flowers
Swanson

[nsacpi]

It is worth looking at what the market for Stanton might look like. I've seen assertions that the fact no one claimed him off waivers means he can be had for free. I doubt that is the case. Teams have more of an ability to adjust their roster/payrolls in the off-season and the market for his services will be very different. I'm willing to bet he either does not get traded this off-season or if he does the terms of the deal will make clear the contract was not all albatross (the Marlins receive positive value in return).

Any analysis has to start with his expected production going forward. Stanton is on his way to his 2nd 6+ WAR season in the past four years. This is his age 27 season. Lets first look at expected production over the next three years (which cover the years ahead of his opt out clause which kicks in after 2020). For his age 28-30 seasons, I think 5 wins per year is a reasonable projection. Total of 15 wins for those three years. There is both some upside and downside risk relative to that. His contract calls for him to be paid 77 million over the next three years. I expect the market rate for free agents this off-season to be about 9 million per win. The 77 million Stanton is going to be paid will get you about 8.5 wins this off-season. So Stanton's expected surplus value is about 6.5 wins (15 minus 8.5) for the next three years.

The tricky part is assessing what comes after the opt out clause kicks in. I think the odds are high Stanton will opt out. The post-opt out part of his contract guarantees him 186M for his age 31-37 seasons. Over those 7 seasons, a reasonable (conservative in my mind) estimate is he will average 3 wins per season (for a total of 21). A conservative estimate of salary inflation would put the going free agent market price for a win at about 10M in the 2020 off-season. In other words, teams would play a player like Stanton (age 30 and projected to produce 3 wins per year) about 210M on a seven year deal.

There is a chance something bad (productivity curtailing injury) will happen and he will not opt out. This is the most difficult part to evaluate and I'll do it the quick and dirty way. I would put the odds of a no opt out scenario about about 10%. Let's say that a potential trade partner with the Marlins estimates that they would lose about 10 wins of surplus value in this "bad" scenario. Assuming about a 10% chance of this bad scenario would result in a downward adjustment of bid by 1 win (10% chance of a negative 10 wins scenario). But keep in mind this must be weighed against other outcomes in which his expect value the next three years is 6-7 wins. This is why I'm convinced Stanton's contract is far from being under water. If a trade happens this off-season, the other team will be sending asset(s) of significant value in exchange for him.

[bravesfanMatt]

When can we expect the sequel to that novel Nsac

[nsacpi]

When can we expect the sequel to that novel Nsac

still negotiating the advance

[bravesfanMatt]

still negotiating the advance

The first was a good read. I can kick a few nuggets in if needed.

[nsacpi]

The first was a good read. I can kick a few nuggets in if needed.

can you do the intro

[bravesfanMatt]

can you do the intro

Since we covered Staton in our first edition. I will now go over how a swap of Dee Gordon for Ozzie Albies is in fact a win win. I know many of you think I am crazy now by saying this but I will go into detailed,advance analytics to show you I am not crazy. By the end of this edition, everyone will have pitch forks in hand marching on Cobb to demand this trade.

There you go. Run with it

[GovClintonTyree]

This thread is asking the wrong question. The lineup is pretty close to sound, especially when you add Acuña.

The question should really be, "what does our pitching look like?" But that will probably take another year to clean up.

Teheran will rebound, I believe. Newk could continue to develop, interesting comments from him this morning on the development of his change this year. Dickey's option will be picked up and he'll be 11-11 with a 4.00 ERA for one more season. Foltynewicz is a rockhead. Gohara is very interesting, especially if he continues to lose weight (although I'm worried about the stiff front leg he throws from). We've got about four keepers in the pen.

So it's all about the pitching, the continued development of this wave and the one after that. Sure would be nice if Wright, Gohara or/and Soroka developed TOR tendencies.

[Horsehide Harry]

It is worth looking at what the market for Stanton might look like. I've seen assertions that the fact no one claimed him off waivers means he can be had for free. I doubt that is the case. Teams have more of an ability to adjust their roster/payrolls in the off-season and the market for his services will be very different. I'm willing to bet he either does not get traded this off-season or if he does the terms of the deal will make clear the contract was not all albatross (the Marlins receive positive value in return).

Any analysis has to start with his expected production going forward. Stanton is on his way to his 2nd 6+ WAR season in the past four years. This is his age 27 season. Lets first look at expected production over the next three years (which cover the years ahead of his opt out clause which kicks in after 2020). For his age 28-30 seasons, I think 5 wins per year is a reasonable projection. Total of 15 wins for those three years. There is both some upside and downside risk relative to that. His contract calls for him to be paid 77 million over the next three years. I expect the market rate for free agents this off-season to be about 9 million per win. The 77 million Stanton is going to be paid will get you about 8.5 wins this off-season. So Stanton's expected surplus value is about 6.5 wins (15 minus 8.5) for the next three years.

The tricky part is assessing what comes after the opt out clause kicks in. I think the odds are high Stanton will opt out. The post-opt out part of his contract guarantees him 186M for his age 31-37 seasons. Over those 7 seasons, a reasonable (conservative in my mind) estimate is he will average 3 wins per season (for a total of 21). A conservative estimate of salary inflation would put the going free agent market price for a win at about 10M in the 2020 off-season. In other words, teams would play a player like Stanton (age 30 and projected to produce 3 wins per year) about 210M on a seven year deal.

There is a chance something bad (productivity curtailing injury) will happen and he will not opt out. This is the most difficult part to evaluate and I'll do it the quick and dirty way. I would put the odds of a no opt out scenario about about 10%. Let's say that a potential trade partner with the Marlins estimates that they would lose about 10 wins of surplus value in this "bad" scenario. Assuming about a 10% chance of this bad scenario would result in a downward adjustment of bid by 1 win (10% chance of a negative 10 wins scenario). But keep in mind this must be weighed against other outcomes in which his expect value the next three years is 6-7 wins. This is why I'm convinced Stanton's contract is far from being under water. If a trade happens this off-season, the other team will be sending asset(s) of significant value in exchange for him.

Ordinarily, I would agree with your reasoning.

However, the Marlins are a wounded animal. They have publicly said that they will get the payroll down to about $75M. They have several contracts that are just unmovable (Chen, Volquez). Then they have several contracts that are unlikely to be moved (Prado, Tazawa, Ziegler). Cots showed them at $115M for 2017 with Chen increasing by $1M, Stanton by $10.5M, Prado $2M, Volquez $4M, Gordon $3M, Ziegler $2M, Tazawa $2M, Ozuna was $3.5M in 2017 and will be arbitration through Boras so estimate he increases by $5M, Yelich $4.5M. So, an increase of $32.5M just with players under contract coming into play the the changing of the calendar from 2017 to 2018.

The only contracts of significance that they can lose just by not renewing or allowing players to leave via FA are: Ellis $2.5M, Ichiro $2M (has $2M option for 2018), McGowan $1.75M, Dietrich $1.75M. So, they could shed about $6M in contracts ($8M - $2M in league minimum replacements).

So, if Florida does nothing then their payroll goes to about $142M just with the changing of the calendar.

To get to $75M they will have to do a serious tear down and find a way to move some assets that normally can't be moved.

That's why I think it is irrelevant as to what Stanton's future value is. The Marlins, if they follow through and try to go to $75M, will have no choice but to attach value to contracts with negative value to get rid of them. Any team willing to help them with that will be at an advantage of getting some good players without having to give up talent value going the other way.

So, if you want Stanton? Then you have to take Ziegler.

You want Ozuna then you have to take Tazawa.

You want Yelich you have to take Prado and Volquez. etc. etc.

[JxnMissFan]

It is worth looking at what the market for Stanton might look like. I've seen assertions that the fact no one claimed him off waivers means he can be had for free. I doubt that is the case. Teams have more of an ability to adjust their roster/payrolls in the off-season and the market for his services will be very different. I'm willing to bet he either does not get traded this off-season or if he does the terms of the deal will make clear the contract was not all albatross (the Marlins receive positive value in return).

Any analysis has to start with his expected production going forward. Stanton is on his way to his 2nd 6+ WAR season in the past four years. This is his age 27 season. Lets first look at expected production over the next three years (which cover the years ahead of his opt out clause which kicks in after 2020). For his age 28-30 seasons, I think 5 wins per year is a reasonable projection. Total of 15 wins for those three years. There is both some upside and downside risk relative to that. His contract calls for him to be paid 77 million over the next three years. I expect the market rate for free agents this off-season to be about 9 million per win. The 77 million Stanton is going to be paid will get you about 8.5 wins this off-season. So Stanton's expected surplus value is about 6.5 wins (15 minus 8.5) for the next three years.

The tricky part is assessing what comes after the opt out clause kicks in. I think the odds are high Stanton will opt out. The post-opt out part of his contract guarantees him 186M for his age 31-37 seasons. Over those 7 seasons, a reasonable (conservative in my mind) estimate is he will average 3 wins per season (for a total of 21). A conservative estimate of salary inflation would put the going free agent market price for a win at about 10M in the 2020 off-season. In other words, teams would play a player like Stanton (age 30 and projected to produce 3 wins per year) about 210M on a seven year deal.

There is a chance something bad (productivity curtailing injury) will happen and he will not opt out. This is the most difficult part to evaluate and I'll do it the quick and dirty way. I would put the odds of a no opt out scenario about about 10%. Let's say that a potential trade partner with the Marlins estimates that they would lose about 10 wins of surplus value in this "bad" scenario. Assuming about a 10% chance of this bad scenario would result in a downward adjustment of bid by 1 win (10% chance of a negative 10 wins scenario). But keep in mind this must be weighed against other outcomes in which his expect value the next three years is 6-7 wins. This is why I'm convinced Stanton's contract is far from being under water. If a trade happens this off-season, the other team will be sending asset(s) of significant value in exchange for him.

I'm good with trading from Stanton if they take back neck and Kemp. That would compensate for two bad years at the end of Stantons contract. Because of his contract i think he will be traded for a big group of lottery ticket type guys. I wouldn't give up one of the braves top 8 prospects for him if I have to take all the money risk.

I think the odds of his opt out are at best 50/50. To make it worth opting out he would have to get a 190 million dollar contract. A 190 million contact eliminates over have the teams at the start. Then you have to eliminate teams that wouldn't need him. So his pool of possible opportunities to opt out gets really small.

[Hudson2]

I think Newk and Gohara will both be solid. Newk is already making adjustments since being called up. Allard and Soroka will probably start in with Wright in AA. Our rotation should be very good by the end of next year.

[Horsehide Harry]

I think Newk and Gohara will both be solid. Newk is already making adjustments since being called up. Allard and Soroka will probably start in with Wright in AA. Our rotation should be very good by the end of next year.

The rebuild really hinges on whether the FO can follow through on the strategy of rebuilding around internal pitching. If they have to go outside to get the pieces to build the staff then the rebuild failed. That's not to say that the Braves will still have horrible records. But if you draft 10 pitchers with premium picks and trade for 5 other prospects as part of key returns for ML players and you still have to go sign and trade for a significant number of external pitchers to be able to field a ML staff, then you failed.

[nsacpi]

I'm good with trading from Stanton if they take back neck and Kemp. That would compensate for two bad years at the end of Stantons contract. Because of his contract i think he will be traded for a big group of lottery ticket type guys. I wouldn't give up one of the braves top 8 prospects for him if I have to take all the money risk.

I think the odds of his opt out are at best 50/50. To make it worth opting out he would have to get a 190 million dollar contract. A 190 million contact eliminates over have the teams at the start. Then you have to eliminate teams that wouldn't need him. So his pool of possible opportunities to opt out gets really small.

Stanton by my reckoning has an expected surplus value of about 6 wins on his contract. Kemp and Markakis have a combined expected surplus value of negative 4 wins. So a Stanton for Kemp and Markakis has to be accompanied by approximately 10 wins worth of assets going from us to them. ymmv

[nsacpi]

Ordinarily, I would agree with your reasoning.

However, the Marlins are a wounded animal. They have publicly said that they will get the payroll down to about $75M. They have several contracts that are just unmovable (Chen, Volquez). Then they have several contracts that are unlikely to be moved (Prado, Tazawa, Ziegler). Cots showed them at $115M for 2017 with Chen increasing by $1M, Stanton by $10.5M, Prado $2M, Volquez $4M, Gordon $3M, Ziegler $2M, Tazawa $2M, Ozuna was $3.5M in 2017 and will be arbitration through Boras so estimate he increases by $5M, Yelich $4.5M. So, an increase of $32.5M just with players under contract coming into play the the changing of the calendar from 2017 to 2018.

The only contracts of significance that they can lose just by not renewing or allowing players to leave via FA are: Ellis $2.5M, Ichiro $2M (has $2M option for 2018), McGowan $1.75M, Dietrich $1.75M. So, they could shed about $6M in contracts ($8M - $2M in league minimum replacements).

So, if Florida does nothing then their payroll goes to about $142M just with the changing of the calendar.

To get to $75M they will have to do a serious tear down and find a way to move some assets that normally can't be moved.

That's why I think it is irrelevant as to what Stanton's future value is. The Marlins, if they follow through and try to go to $75M, will have no choice but to attach value to contracts with negative value to get rid of them. Any team willing to help them with that will be at an advantage of getting some good players without having to give up talent value going the other way.

So, if you want Stanton? Then you have to take Ziegler.

You want Ozuna then you have to take Tazawa.

You want Yelich you have to take Prado and Volquez. etc. etc.

bet? I win if one of the following happens:

1) Stanton is not traded this off-season

2) he is traded but nets a positive return...ie what the Marlins get back is worth more than what they send over in addition to Stanton including cash (I am willing to allow you to be sole arbiter of whether this condition is met).

[nsacpi]

I'm good with trading from Stanton if they take back neck and Kemp. That would compensate for two bad years at the end of Stantons contract. Because of his contract i think he will be traded for a big group of lottery ticket type guys. I wouldn't give up one of the braves top 8 prospects for him if I have to take all the money risk.

I think the odds of his opt out are at best 50/50. To make it worth opting out he would have to get a 190 million dollar contract. A 190 million contact eliminates over have the teams at the start. Then you have to eliminate teams that wouldn't need him. So his pool of possible opportunities to opt out gets really small.

I have a bet proposal for you too, though it will take 3 years to see who wins. I win if he opts out. You win if he doesn't.

[BeanieAntics]

I have a bet proposal for you too, though it will take 3 years to see who wins. I win if he opts out. You win if he doesn't.

Oh good lord, I may regret signing up for the board now. I forgot how bet happy it is. And how bet happy I am lol

[nsacpi]

Oh good lord, I may regret signing up for the board now. I forgot how bet happy it is. And how bet happy I am lol

Don't worry. I don't bet with rookies.

[Horsehide Harry]

bet? I win if one of the following happens:

1) Stanton is not traded this off-season

2) he is traded but nets a positive return...ie what the Marlins get back is worth more than what they send over in addition to Stanton including cash (I am willing to allow you to be sole arbiter of whether this condition is met).

This ain't the playground. I have no need to prove my manhood to you.

I think he will be traded and stand behind that. But, I don't control what all teams do. If someone is willing to step up and give big value for Stanton then good for them.

However, I think a smart FO would be ready with offers that address the Marlins real need which is to shed payroll.

[JxnMissFan]

I have a bet proposal for you too, though it will take 3 years to see who wins. I win if he opts out. You win if he doesn't.

What's your proposal? This might me fun. Off the top of my head I can't think of a position player that has ever opted out of a 150 million plus contract. So this is uncharted territory. Kershaw will opt out of his big contract but I'm not sure how much he is owed.

[BeanieAntics]

This ain't the playground. I have no need to prove my manhood to you.

I think he will be traded and stand behind that. But, I don't control what all teams do. If someone is willing to step up and give big value for Stanton then good for them.

However, I think a smart FO would be ready with offers that address the Marlins real need which is to shed payroll.

The Marlins also have on of the worst farms in baseball and a pitching staff that they will never win with. They have many other needs aside from payroll and I'm certain the Marlins won't trade him unless they can address multiple needs. You just don't trade the reigning MVP to make payroll room, albeit Stanton's contract is uncharted territory.

[Horsehide Harry]

The Marlins also have on of the worst farms in baseball and a pitching staff that they will never win with. They have many other needs aside from payroll and I'm certain the Marlins won't trade him unless they can address multiple needs. You just don't trade the reigning MVP to make payroll room, albeit Stanton's contract is uncharted territory.

I'm going by what they've indicated that they will do. Who knows, maybe they will go into 2018 with a $140M payroll. If they don't do that then they have no choice but to trade Stanton.

Let's say they are ok with a $100M payroll, then maybe they trade Stanton and ALL his salary (something far from certain) just for best package available something along the lines of Frazier, Florial and Chance Adams. OK, understandable.

But, if they need to get to $75M like they have said, then they have to find a taker for Prado, Tazawa and Ziegler at a minimum to trading Stanton. There's no way they find a taker for Chen or Volquez. And trading Yelich and Ozuna doesn't really move the needle enough.

They are in a classic position to tear the team down and build it back up again. It's not like they have a huge fanbase that they will lose. There is no real fanbase.

If it were me, I would use STanton to shed as much payroll as I could. Hold Chen and Volquez until they cycle out as part of my obligated payroll. Then use everybody else to best advantage to build the farm long term.

[Knucksie]

Despite the other banter, still trying to figure out why several people think that Carmago is even some kind of short term solution.

[zbhargrove]

Despite the other banter, still trying to figure out why several people think that Carmago is even some kind of short term solution.

Because he's been pretty good at a young age with great defense and a tangible increase in power?

[Knucksie]

Because he's been pretty good at a young age with great defense and a tangible increase in power?

Responding back in the form of a question suggests that you're maybe not entirely sure yourself. Message board groupthink doesn't make it any more impressive. Doubt that Carmago is somebody who'll do much to help make the team better. Rio Ruiz is little more than a place holder. 3B is definitely a position that needs to be improved, and it shouldn't come as any surprise if it's addressed externally before the jury is out on Riley and Demeritte.

[Heyward]

Flowers
Freeman
Albies
Swanson
Camargo
FA
Inciarte
Acuna

From C to RF.

I'd love to add Lorenzo Cain.

[Horsehide Harry]

Flowers
Freeman
Albies
Swanson
Camargo
FA
Inciarte
Acuna

From C to RF.

I'd love to add Lorenzo Cain.

I think that would be a classic instance of paying a guy for what he was not what he will be. Cain is past his prime and highly unlikely to be a good bet at the end of whatever contract he will get.

[Horsehide Harry]

Responding back in the form of a question suggests that you're maybe not entirely sure yourself. Message board groupthink doesn't make it any more impressive. Doubt that Carmago is somebody who'll do much to help make the team better. Rio Ruiz is little more than a place holder. 3B is definitely a position that needs to be improved, and it shouldn't come as any surprise if it's addressed externally before the jury is out on Riley and Demeritte.

Probably true.

The Braves appear to want to accelerate the rebuild. If that is the case, then they really can't go into 2018 with a Camargo/Ruiz platoon and can't wait for whatever Riley might be. The issue then is what do you do? Do you break the bank for a Moustakas? There doesn't seem to be payroll space for that (not considering if it's a good idea or not). Do you add a placeholder like Frazier or Walker? Again, money and viability. Do you try to trade for a 3B?

If they go with Camargo and Ruiz then the FO is signaling that 2018 is a growing year, not a competing year. That should have been the plan all along but hasn't been.

[nsacpi]

Probably true.

The Braves appear to want to accelerate the rebuild. If that is the case, then they really can't go into 2018 with a Camargo/Ruiz platoon and can't wait for whatever Riley might be. The issue then is what do you do? Do you break the bank for a Moustakas? There doesn't seem to be payroll space for that (not considering if it's a good idea or not). Do you add a placeholder like Frazier or Walker? Again, money and viability. Do you try to trade for a 3B?

If they go with Camargo and Ruiz then the FO is signaling that 2018 is a growing year, not a competing year. That should have been the plan all along but hasn't been.

The approach I would favor is to give Camargo/Ruiz 2 or 3 months. Go into the season with some budget saved. In a scenario where the team is above .500 in July but the trial at third doesn't work out, we can then make a mid-season move to upgrade at third.

[Horsehide Harry]

The approach I would favor is to give Camargo/Ruiz 2 or 3 months. Go into the season with some budget saved. In a scenario where the team is above .500 in July but the trial at third doesn't work out, we can then make a mid-season move to upgrade at third.

That probably makes sense. But I wonder how much "attendance pressure" there will be to at least appear to make a splash.

[nsacpi]

Responding back in the form of a question suggests that you're maybe not entirely sure yourself. Message board groupthink doesn't make it any more impressive. Doubt that Carmago is somebody who'll do much to help make the team better. Rio Ruiz is little more than a place holder. 3B is definitely a position that needs to be improved, and it shouldn't come as any surprise if it's addressed externally before the jury is out on Riley and Demeritte.

what would you like to see from Camargo before making him the regular at third

[BeanieAntics]

what would you like to see from Camargo before making him the regular at third

Ideally I would like to see Camargo have a sustained period of success from both sides of the plate without his numbers being buoyed by a high BABIP. I would also like a longer look at him to see if this power surge is real, which I am skeptical of.

[nsacpi]

What's your proposal? This might me fun. Off the top of my head I can't think of a position player that has ever opted out of a 150 million plus contract. So this is uncharted territory. Kershaw will opt out of his big contract but I'm not sure how much he is owed.

which rival football team do you detest the most.

[Knucksie]

what would you like to see from Camargo before making him the regular at third

It'll surprise me if he does become a regular. Certainly that's a potential option but just bet that they're going to be looking externally. Some of those developing starting pitchers will be with other organizations in the very near future. The ones who won't stay will be trade chips.

[Hudson2]

I'd still love to get Josh Donaldson. I know he's a FA after next year but we should be able to sign him to an extension. Riley would probably be a good starting point in a trade since he should just need one more year of seasoning and that should fall in line we'll with Bichette and Vlad Jr. Riley, Anderson, and another piece should do it or come close.

[nsacpi]

I'd still love to get Josh Donaldson. I know he's a FA after next year but we should be able to sign him to an extension. devils in the details...for a cautionary tale see Uggla extension at a similar age

[zbhargrove]

Responding back in the form of a question suggests that you're maybe not entirely sure yourself. Message board groupthink doesn't make it any more impressive. Doubt that Carmago is somebody who'll do much to help make the team better. Rio Ruiz is little more than a place holder. 3B is definitely a position that needs to be improved, and it shouldn't come as any surprise if it's addressed externally before the jury is out on Riley and Demeritte.

I'm not entirely sure... you're right. But the statement wondering why people are thinking Camargo could at least be a short term solution is a bit daft. He's been very good and a platoon with him and Ruiz (who also has shown favorable splits for a platoon) in the short term is certainly not that bad. I still would probably prefer to try and sell high on Camargo and bring someone like Nunez in. I like Moose more than most, but I can't imagine paying him what he will demand.

[Enscheff]

It all depends on whether they truly think they can compete next year.

If they do, they need to dump Kemp, move Markakis to LF, and promote Acuna. They need to sign at least Frazier for 3b. They need to drop Dickey and sign at least Cobb.

All that and I can see Braves as an 80 win team that is a few gold breaks away from being limited buyers at the deadline.

If they think they need to buy another year for the rebuild (the route I would advise), they need to stay the course. Let Markakis and Kemp continue to be placeholders for Acuna. Let Dickey soak up cheap innings. Let Camargo and Ruiz take their lumps at 3b.

It's either/or. Either fix the rotation, 3b and LF, or continue taking their lumps. Trying to take the middle road is the worst possible course of action.

I'm guessing the FO is desperate to win, so we are going to see an exciting "all in" offseason. I'm not optimistic it will turn out well, but at least it will make everyone look forward to 2018.

[zbhargrove]

It all depends on whether they truly think they can compete next year.

If they do, they need to dump Kemp, move Markakis to LF, and promote Acuna. They need to sign at least Frazier for 3b. They need to drop Dickey and sign at least Cobb.

All that and I can see Braves as an 80 win team that is a few gold breaks away from being limited buyers at the deadline.

If they think they need to buy another year for the rebuild (the route I would advise), they need to stay the course. Let Markakis and Kemp continue to be placeholders for Acuna. Let Dickey soak up cheap innings. Let Camargo and Ruiz take their lumps at 3b.

It's either/or. Either fix the rotation, 3b and LF, or continue taking their lumps. Trying to take the middle road is the worst possible course of action.

I'm guessing the FO is desperate to win, so we are going to see an exciting "all in" offseason. I'm not optimistic it will turn out well, but at least it will make everyone look forward to 2018.

Pretty much agree with everything here. Although, I think in an ideal "go for it" off season, we would somehow get rid of Kemp and Markakis... however unlikely it is. Acuna and JD Martinez, plus Nunez and Cobb would be my dream off season. Like you, though... not sure it would turn out well.

[Southcack77]

The surest bet in baseball is that whoever pays Stanton for his post prime years is going to regret it dearly.

This is a guy who hasn't stayed healthy in his healthy prime. Who hasn't consistently been an elite player in his prime.

His defense is going to decline rapidly. He's going to strike out more. He's going to continue to get injured.

Even the very best players in baseball, maybe especially the very best players in baseball, end their careers with salaries like albatrosses.

This would be {not be a good IMO} move by the Braves and no amount of trading away two years of a bad contract for ten years of a horrid contract is going to change that. When the very best thing that can happen is that the guy will play well and opt out. You can't play that game of Russian Roulette if you have any sort of payroll limitations.

Please drop this. The Braves big problem is the pitching is so bad. They don't need a big slugger to improve. they need pitching.

[Chico]

Pretty much agree with everything here. Although, I think in an ideal "go for it" off season, we would somehow get rid of Kemp and Markakis... however unlikely it is. Acuna and JD Martinez, plus Nunez and Cobb would be my dream off season. Like you, though... not sure it would turn out well.

I think we will do a "go for it" offseason as well. We have 3 to 4 years before we have to start doling out arbitration cases outside of Folty. I think Julio will be flipped as soon as he rebuilds value, so outside of Kemp Freeman is the only contract on the books of note. I'd rather they go this route than trade away prospects. Pitching is so volatile we may need all we got to win the attrition war.

If we ate half of Kemp's contract to move him, traded Matt Adams, and didn't tender Dickey we could have some more cash to work with. The years would be my focus moreso than the money.

[Knucksie]

I'm not entirely sure... you're right. But the statement wondering why people are thinking Camargo could at least be a short term solution is a bit daft. He's been very good and a platoon with him and Ruiz (who also has shown favorable splits for a platoon) in the short term is certainly not that bad. I still would probably prefer to try and sell high on Camargo and bring someone like Nunez in. I like Moose more than most, but I can't imagine paying him what he will demand.

Current MLBTR article expresses pretty much the same opinion as mine and some comments by other posters (power won't hold up) and obviously speculates on the names that you cited.

[thethe]

Stay the course. Still not the offseason to trade young talent. Stack up the bullpen, let Acuna come up in May and play Camargo 120 games at third 8 at short and 8 at second.

The only move that I'd be ok with is signing someone like Cobb/Lynn so that the young arms may get some more time in AAA/

2018 is not a WS year. Its all about assessing the young talent before the big move. We haven't had enough time to make the determination on who stays and goes yet.

[nsacpi]

I wouldn't object to Todd Frazier on a 3 year deal with AAV of 15M. I suspect he will get more both in terms of years and AAV.

[Chico]

I wouldn't object to Todd Frazier on a 3 year deal with AAV of 15M. I suspect he will get more both in terms of years and AAV.

Frazier has a value to him. He'd provide the RH pop they want behind Freeman and the clubhouse guy they want. He'd replace Kemp and Nick.

I like Camargo but I like him more as a super utility guy more than a starter.

[buck75]

Gotta give Camargo more ABs next season. He may be a doubles machine.

[GeorgiaGirl]

Less than one season of at bats is entirely WAAAYYY too early to say that "This is who a guy really is" in Camargo's case, sorry.

You need well over one season to declare "This is who a guy really is". Well over it. And I mean major league at bats, not minor.

[Chico]

Less than one season of at bats is entirely WAAAYYY too early to say that "This is who a guy really is" in Camargo's case, sorry.

You need well over one season to declare "This is who a guy really is". Well over it. And I mean major league at bats, not minor.

With a guy like Camargo why couldn't those AB's be spread out over 4 positions playing semi-regularly? If you're trying to find out who a guy really is that sounds like a better way than handing them a starting job. There's value to having a guy like that

[jimsnores]

It all depends on whether they truly think they can compete next year.

If they do, they need to dump Kemp, move Markakis to LF, and promote Acuna. They need to sign at least Frazier for 3b. They need to drop Dickey and sign at least Cobb.

All that and I can see Braves as an 80 win team that is a few gold breaks away from being limited buyers at the deadline.

If they think they need to buy another year for the rebuild (the route I would advise), they need to stay the course. Let Markakis and Kemp continue to be placeholders for Acuna. Let Dickey soak up cheap innings. Let Camargo and Ruiz take their lumps at 3b.

It's either/or. Either fix the rotation, 3b and LF, or continue taking their lumps. Trying to take the middle road is the worst possible course of action.

I'm guessing the FO is desperate to win, so we are going to see an exciting "all in" offseason. I'm not optimistic it will turn out well, but at least it will make everyone look forward to 2018.

What you say makes sense, but I can't imagine them holding Acuna off for another year. Technically, unless he struggles in AFL or Spring Training, they would be in danger of failing to live up to the CBA if they held him off, though if the Cubs could do it with Bryant, the Braves could at least hold him off for a few weeks, and nobody could say anything. I'll be pleased but shocked if they even do that, though. I am excited to see him, and am anxious to see a palatable on-field product.

As I age, I get less patient with wasted years, and I suppose a lot of fans are the same. The FO does have to balance fan perceptions/preferences and long term rebuilding effectiveness. It ain't easy. I am willing to wait a little longer for sustained results. I wonder how many others are, though. It's easy to be short-sighted, but nobody will be happy with five or six more years of mediocrity (or worse), so they need to act wisely, even at the risk of angering some in the short term.

[The Chosen One]

The question is how long can Freeman sustain this production until the kids come up and mature.

Swanson has gone through growing pains and who know when he'll hit his stride. Albies has not really gone through a Swansonesque slump yet, but it will come. If Freeman's production declines, that's A LOT of offense to make up.

[Hudson2]

I have no clue what the FO is gonna do this offseason but no way they go into the stadium again and suck. They're gonna do something stupid more than likely and trade several guys away to speed this up. I just hope they don't trade the wrong ones.

[zbhargrove]

Prob less than 1% chance it happens but Ohtani sure would solve some problems

[Chico]

I have no clue what the FO is gonna do this offseason but no way they go into the stadium again and suck. They're gonna do something stupid more than likely and trade several guys away to speed this up. I just hope they don't trade the wrong ones.

I highly doubt the FO is going to sit back and not make some noise this offseason to drum up some excitment for year 2 of the park. That's why I'd advocate going the FA route. Wiht all of the kids we have coming it's going to be a while before we have to start doling our money. This would be the time to carry some money on the books before we hand out extensions or have to start guessing who is going to make too much in arbitration.

[Enscheff]

Prob less than 1% chance it happens but Ohtani sure would solve some problems

If there's a team that could promise Ohtani a couple starts a week in the OF, it would be the Braves. Still only about a 1% chance of happening though.

[clvclv]

What you say makes sense, but I can't imagine them holding Acuna off for another year. Technically, unless he struggles in AFL or Spring Training, they would be in danger of failing to live up to the CBA if they held him off, though if the Cubs could do it with Bryant, the Braves could at least hold him off for a few weeks, and nobody could say anything. I'll be pleased but shocked if they even do that, though. I am excited to see him, and am anxious to see a palatable on-field product.

As I age, I get less patient with wasted years, and I suppose a lot of fans are the same. The FO does have to balance fan perceptions/preferences and long term rebuilding effectiveness. It ain't easy. I am willing to wait a little longer for sustained results. I wonder how many others are, though. It's easy to be short-sighted, but nobody will be happy with five or six more years of mediocrity (or worse), so they need to act wisely, even at the risk of angering some in the short term.


This is why many of us feel the same way IMO. The prudent thing to do is continue with the rebuild, but it's tough to sell even the "more-advanced" fan on holding off and that you honestly believe in these kids if the resources are available to plug a hole or two and the kids perform like you expect them to. It won't take very long for the attendance to dwindle in that shiny new park if 2018 is a repeat of this season. No, somebody like Moustakas may not be absolutely ideal, but he's a FAR sight better than anything on the horizon for the next 3-4 years if you're not a Riley believer. The Braves CAN afford him, but whether they will or should is obviously a fair debate. I'm not nearly as big on Frazier personally, but certainly understand the appeal he has for others. I think your point that "it ain't easy" gets lost in most discussions here. IF some of these kids are as good as hoped, adding a piece or two to at least put the team in contention as early as next season - as long as it only costs money - arguably makes you "relevant" in 2018 and a legitimate contender in 2019. Add Moustakas and Cobb with the savings from Colon/Garcia/Dickey and count on these kids - with Kemp and Markakis coming off the books over the next two years you can work on extending the best of the bunch.

If there's two successful MLB SPs out of the Folty/Newcomb/Fried/Soroka/Wentz group and a legitimate #1/#2 guy (not necessarily a true "Ace") out of the Gohara/Wright/Allard trio, you've at least got a shot - if not, the rebuild is going to need rebooting anyway. Heaven knows the Royals had more question marks and less to work with when they started their little run.

As another old guy I'm not interested in waiting 5 more years, but am also a believer in Acuna/Albies/Swanson/and believe several of the arms are going to adapt much faster than Folty has and am willing to roll the dice with a couple strong adds this winter to plug holes, but I completely understand why others want to keep preaching patience - the thing about exercising that patience is that you need to go all-in if you're going to do that and you need to go ahead and trade Freeman and Ender THIS winter if you're willing to wait. If you don't believe in what's already the best farm system in the game, you aren't likely ever going to be happy with the organization (and that's OK). Just understand that doing so will cost everyone in management their jobs because when that shiny new ballpark sits there filled to 25%-30% capacity for the next several years, you're going to get canned - no matter what the metrics and Statcast say.

[Chico]

This is why many of us feel the same way IMO. The prudent thing to do is continue with the rebuild, but it's tough to sell even the "more-advanced" fan on holding off and that you honestly believe in these kids if the resources are available to plug a hole or two and the kids perform like you expect them to. It won't take very long for the attendance to dwindle in that shiny new park if 2018 is a repeat of this season. No, somebody like Moustakas may not be absolutely ideal, but he's a FAR sight better than anything on the horizon for the next 3-4 years if you're not a Riley believer. The Braves CAN afford him, but whether they will or should is obviously a fair debate. I'm not nearly as big on Frazier personally, but certainly understand the appeal he has for others. I think your point that "it ain't easy" gets lost in most discussions here. IF some of these kids are as good as hoped, adding a piece or two to at least put the team in contention as early as next season - as long as it only costs money - arguably makes you "relevant" in 2018 and a legitimate contender in 2019. Add Moustakas and Cobb with the savings from Colon/Garcia/Dickey and count on these kids - with Kemp and Markakis coming off the books over the next two years you can work on extending the best of the bunch.

If there's two successful MLB SPs out of the Folty/Newcomb/Fried/Soroka/Wentz group and a legitimate #1/#2 guy (not necessarily a true "Ace") out of the Gohara/Wright/Allard trio, you've at least got a shot - if not, the rebuild is going to need rebooting anyway. Heaven knows the Royals had more question marks and less to work with when they started their little run.

As another old guy I'm not interested in waiting 5 more years, but am also a believer in Acuna/Albies/Swanson/and believe several of the arms are going to adapt much faster than Folty has and am willing to roll the dice with a couple strong adds this winter to plug holes, but I completely understand why others want to keep preaching patience - the thing about exercising that patience is that you need to go all-in if you're going to do that and you need to go ahead and trade Freeman and Ender THIS winter if you're willing to wait. If you don't believe in what's already the best farm system in the game, you aren't likely ever going to be happy with the organization (and that's OK). Just understand that doing so will cost everyone in management their jobs because when that shiny new ballpark sits there filled to 25%-30% capacity for the next several years, you're going to get canned - no matter what the metrics and Statcast say.

I agree with this part, but the problem is Moose will cost a 2nd round pick. I cannot see this regime losing a pick and I don't want them to. The rebuild should never be over IMO. We should be restocking always. Moose will also probably get 5 years, and that could eat in the years we're doling out extensions. Also, we do not deal with Boras very often.

[clvclv]

I agree with this part, but the problem is Moose will cost a 2nd round pick. I cannot see this regime losing a pick and I don't want them to. The rebuild should never be over IMO. We should be restocking always. Moose will also probably get 5 years, and that could eat in the years we're doling out extensions. Also, we do not deal with Boras very often.

Just a minimal issue for most of us that are part of the older crowd - if I can fix the black hole that has been 3B since Chipper retired and turn Acuna and Riley into the replacements for Markakis and Kemp within the next 12-18 months I'm more than happy to give up a second round pick to do so.

[clvclv]

Would still call the Cards and see if there's any interest in a Camargo-Piscotty deal - they really need an inexpensive SS and have OF depth, and make a ton of sense as a potential Hosmer or J. D. Martinez suitor this winter. They really don't have any SSs that are close, and don't seem to believe in DeJong's defense. If they landed Hosmer they could move Carpenter back to 3B and DeJong to the OF, or if they got Martinez they could move DeJong to 3B and leave Carpenter at 1B.

[Oklahomabrave]

Would still call the Cards and see if there's any interest in a Camargo-Piscotty deal - they really need an inexpensive SS and have OF depth, and make a ton of sense as a potential Hosmer or J. D. Martinez suitor this winter. They really don't have any SSs that are close, and don't seem to believe in DeJong's defense. If they landed Hosmer they could move Carpenter back to 3B and DeJong to the OF, or if they got Martinez they could move DeJong to 3B and leave Carpenter at 1B.
I'd love Piscotty and would be thrilled with this even if we had to add something to make it happen.

[Southcack77]

Just a minimal issue for most of us that are part of the older crowd - if I can fix the black hole that has been 3B since Chipper retired and turn Acuna and Riley into the replacements for Markakis and Kemp within the next 12-18 months I'm more than happy to give up a second round pick to do so.

but you can't fix it.

[msstate7]

Just a minimal issue for most of us that are part of the older crowd - if I can fix the black hole that has been 3B since Chipper retired and turn Acuna and Riley into the replacements for Markakis and Kemp within the next 12-18 months I'm more than happy to give up a second round pick to do so.

Isn't Riley a good defender at 3b? Why move him to OF?

[DirkPiggler]

Would still call the Cards and see if there's any interest in a Camargo-Piscotty deal - they really need an inexpensive SS and have OF depth, and make a ton of sense as a potential Hosmer or J. D. Martinez suitor this winter. They really don't have any SSs that are close, and don't seem to believe in DeJong's defense. If they landed Hosmer they could move Carpenter back to 3B and DeJong to the OF, or if they got Martinez they could move DeJong to 3B and leave Carpenter at 1B.

Why on earth would the Cardinals need a SS?

DeJong's defense has been fine, and he's a hell of a lot better offensively than Camargo, even with Johan on an unsustainable run this year.

[smootness]

DeJong's issue is his offense. What he's done this year is no more sustainable than Camargo.

[nsacpi]

DeJong's issue is his offense. What he's done this year is no more sustainable than Camargo.

So why would they want Camargo?

[smootness]

So why would they want Camargo?

They wouldn't haha. Sorry, that wasn't intended as support of clv's idea.

[Chico]

The Cardinals are a team I'm sure we'll be talking to with 5 RH Corner OF's in Pham, Piscotty, Oneil, Bader, and Grichuk

I think Grichuk would be the cheapest to acquire, Piscotty the most expensive, and Pham the sell high buyer's remorse candidate.

I assume they'll be looking to upgrade that pen.

[DirkPiggler]

DeJong's issue is his offense. What he's done this year is no more sustainable than Camargo.

Even if (when) he regresses he still should be better than the best version of Camargo.

[nsacpi]

The Cardinals are a team I'm sure we'll be talking to with 5 RH Corner OF's in Pham, Piscotty, Oneil, Bader, and Grichuk

I think Grichuk would be the cheapest to acquire, Piscotty the most expensive, and Pham the sell high buyer's remorse candidate.

I assume they'll be looking to upgrade that pen.

I thought we were trying to trade away corner outfielders.

[clvclv]

DeJong's issue is his offense. What he's done this year is no more sustainable than Camargo.

The consistent chatter on the XM shows is that DeJong's much better suited to move off SS because of his defense - as someone who's seen him play maybe twice, I tend to rely on others who've actually seen him more often than most of us here probably have.

That's also where the mention of St. Louis' potential interest in Camargo comes from as well, and they continually mention that they need to significantly improve defensively at the position and continually state that the feeling is that they don't have a solid to plus defensive option anywhere close to major league ready. The discussion on those shows has been that Camargo would be a significant upgrade over what they have.

As for the comparison between DeJong and Camargo sustaining anything close to what they've done, I don't think anyone would argue that either will - I simply stated that I'd love to sell high on him (as others have mentioned) if we could use him as part of a package to get someone like Piscotty.

I can definitely see them spending big on at least one bat this winter - Hosmer and J. D. Martinez would seem to make the most sense - and adding either will compound their glut of corner options (both IF and OF), so they'd be an obvious target for Coppy to talk to early on IMO.

[clvclv]

Isn't Riley a good defender at 3b? Why move him to OF?

The questions about whether he'd be able to stick have been there since he was drafted, but this was in Bowman's most recent mailbag...

"It was encouraging to see Riley produce a .900 OPS after his promotion to Double-A Mississippi and steadily mature as an offensive threat as this season progressed. The 20-year-old is a physically gifted prospect with upside from the power perspective. But I think we need to see him grow into his body a little more before making an accurate projection about his ability to have the footwork necessary to handle third base as early as next season."

http://m.braves.mlb.com/news/article/254955888/braves-fans-ask-about-ronald-acuna-prospects/


I'm assuming he's being fed that from somewhere since I can't imagine he's seen much of him.

[Chico]

I thought we were trying to trade away corner outfielders.

If we trade away 2 and put Acuna in one, then we'll need another one.

Grichuk, Bader, and Pham have all played CF as well.

[nsacpi]

If we trade away 2 and put Acuna in one, then we'll need another one.

Grichuk, Bader, and Pham have all played CF as well.

So the scenario we are talking about involves moving both Kemp and Markakis and acquiring another outfielder. A lot of planets have to be aligned for that one. I think its going to be a challenge moving one of Kemp/Markakis let alone both.

[Enscheff]

So the scenario we are talking about involves moving both Kemp and Markakis and acquiring another outfielder. A lot of planets have to be aligned for that one. I think its going to be a challenge moving one of Kemp/Markakis let alone both.

Let the wild rosterbation begin!!

[clvclv]

So the scenario we are talking about involves moving both Kemp and Markakis and acquiring another outfielder. A lot of planets have to be aligned for that one. I think its going to be a challenge moving one of Kemp/Markakis let alone both.

Yeah, but it's fun to dream...how great would an offseason filled with Kemp and Markakis subtractions combined with Acuna, Suarez, Piscotty, and Cobb additions be?!?!?

[Chico]

So the scenario we are talking about involves moving both Kemp and Markakis and acquiring another outfielder. A lot of planets have to be aligned for that one. I think its going to be a challenge moving one of Kemp/Markakis let alone both.

I don't think moving Markakis should be too hard. There are enough teams that are looking for a one yar deal quick fix to a problem. Moving Kemp is going to be harder. I've accepted we're going to have to eat half the salary to do so, which should make it easier to an AL team. If he's not going to be serious about his weight he cannot play in the NL.

[Horsehide Harry]

I think the offseason direction hinges on what the plan for 2018 is and has been. If 2018 is considered to be a continuing rebuilding year then the choice is pretty simple - keep Kemp, Markakis and Dickey, trade any or all at any time where you can get anything for them without having to give anything up including money. Use Acuna to supplement and eventually take over. Use the young pitchers to eventually move Dickey off if he's not traded. At 3B you go with Camargo and Ruiz platoon and put Riley on the watch list or start saving pennies for a run at Donaldson or Machado in the 18/19 offseason. This is also the static payroll scenario. However, if this was the intent all along, then it is clear that the Braves seriously mishandled the rebuild and should have moved Freeman, Teheran and not been so hung up about getting "close" talent in return for the divesting trades.

If 2018 is truly to be considered a real attempt at post season play then they can't go into the season with Kemp and Markakis on the corners. Currently Kemp has a BRwar of -1.2 and Markakis is at 0.5. Even with the good play of Ender, the OF is about the third worst in baseball. The 3b situation isn't much better. When you consider that it's unlikely that the catching platoon will be anywhere near next year what it was this year, then keeping 3B, RF and LF as is puts way too much pressure on 1B, 2B, SS and C to perform.

[Enscheff]

I think the offseason direction hinges on what the plan for 2018 is and has been. If 2018 is considered to be a continuing rebuilding year then the choice is pretty simple - keep Kemp, Markakis and Dickey, trade any or all at any time where you can get anything for them without having to give anything up including money. Use Acuna to supplement and eventually take over. Use the young pitchers to eventually move Dickey off if he's not traded. At 3B you go with Camargo and Ruiz platoon and put Riley on the watch list or start saving pennies for a run at Donaldson or Machado in the 18/19 offseason. This is also the static payroll scenario. However, if this was the intent all along, then it is clear that the Braves seriously mishandled the rebuild and should have moved Freeman, Teheran and not been so hung up about getting "close" talent in return for the divesting trades.

If 2018 is truly to be considered a real attempt at post season play then they can't go into the season with Kemp and Markakis on the corners. Currently Kemp has a BRwar of -1.2 and Markakis is at 0.5. Even with the good play of Ender, the OF is about the third worst in baseball. The 3b situation isn't much better. When you consider that it's unlikely that the catching platoon will be anywhere near next year what it was this year, then keeping 3B, RF and LF as is puts way too much pressure on 1B, 2B, SS and C to perform.

Yup. The Braves need to take one of 2 clearly defined paths. The worst course of action would be some combination of the those 2 paths.

[Enscheff]

This comment on the latest MLBTR chat is certainly interesting:

wesley
3:04 does 4 years 70 million get lance Lynn or alex cobb? both seem about the same earning potential wise this off season

Jeffrey Todd
3:04 I'm taking the under on both.

Everything else I read pegged Lynn around 5/90 and Cobb around 3/50.

If the Braves are "going for it" in 2018, Lynn at less than 4/70 is definitely something to consider.

[Enscheff]

I would not recommend "going for it" this offseason, but if the Braves do, here would be my "go for it" offseason plan:

1. Decline Dickey's option.
2. Sign Lynn for around 4/70 or Cobb for 3/50, whichever offers the best value.
3. DFA Kemp, or assume the Braves have to eat his entire contract.
4. Trade Markakis, assume the Braves have to eat about as much as they save in a Kemp trade.
5. Trade for Piscotty to play LF. He is having a down year due to poor luck. The last 3 seasons his xwOBA has been about .360, .345, .345, so he is hitting as good as ever. Piscotty is owed 6/46 or 5/32, which is probably a surplus value in the range of $90M. The Braves will have to pay in prospects accordingly.
6. Sign Todd Frazier for around 3/50.
7. Leave Acuna in AAA for a few weeks to start the season.

That leaves the Braves with the following 2018 roster after Acuna is promoted:

# Pos Player Salary WAR
1 C Flowers $4.00 4 (adding framing runs saved)
2 1B Freeman $21.00 6
3 2B Albies $0.55 4
4 3B Frazier $17.00 2.5
5 SS Swanson $0.55 2
6 LF Piscotty $1.33 2.5
7 CF Inciarte $4.70 3
8 RF Acuna $0.55 2

9 SP1 Teheran $8.00 2
10 SP2 Folty $4.00 2
11 SP3 Lynn/Cobb $18.00 3
12 SP4 Newk $0.55 2
13 SP5 Fried $0.55 2

14 BN1 M Adams $4.00 3
15 BN2 Camargo $0.55
16 BN3 Santana $1.00
17 BN4 L Adams $0.55
18 BN5 Sanchez $0.55

19 BP1 JJ $5.00 2
20 BP2 Viz $3.00
21 BP3 Freeman $0.55
22 BP4 Ramirez $0.55
23 BP5 Minter $0.55
24 BP6 Winkler $1.00
25 BP7 Wisler $0.55
Extra Kemp $18.25

Total $116.88 42

Assuming the bench provides 3 wins, and the BP provides 2 wins (double what they provided this year), 42 WAR + 48 puts the Braves right at the cusp of 90 wins in 2018 at a cost of $116M (which includes all of Kemp's salary).

If Newk or Folty is needed to acquire Piscotty, Gohara would slot into the rotation the first game a 5th SP is needed. Allard, Soroka, and Wright would be in AA/AAA ready to replace any SPs who falter.

[Southcack77]

I would not recommend "going for it" this offseason, but if the Braves do, here would be my "go for it" offseason plan:

1. Decline Dickey's option.
2. Sign Lynn for around 4/70 or Cobb for 3/50, whichever offers the best value.
3. DFA Kemp, or assume the Braves have to eat his entire contract.
4. Trade Markakis, assume the Braves have to eat about as much as they save in a Kemp trade.
5. Trade for Piscotty to play LF. He is having a down year due to poor luck. The last 3 seasons his xwOBA has been about .360, .345, .345, so he is hitting as good as ever. Piscotty is owed 6/46 or 5/32, which is probably a surplus value in the range of $90M. The Braves will have to pay in prospects accordingly.
6. Sign Todd Frazier for around 3/50.
7. Leave Acuna in AAA for a few weeks to start the season.

That leaves the Braves with the following 2018 roster after Acuna is promoted:

# Pos Player Salary WAR
1 C Flowers $4.00 4 (adding framing runs saved)
2 1B Freeman $21.00 6
3 2B Albies $0.55 4
4 3B Frazier $17.00 2.5
5 SS Swanson $0.55 2
6 LF Piscotty $1.33 2.5
7 CF Inciarte $4.70 3
8 RF Acuna $0.55 2

9 SP1 Teheran $8.00 2
10 SP2 Folty $4.00 2
11 SP3 Lynn/Cobb $18.00 3
12 SP4 Newk $0.55 2
13 SP5 Fried $0.55 2

14 BN1 M Adams $4.00 3
15 BN2 Camargo $0.55
16 BN3 Santana $1.00
17 BN4 L Adams $0.55
18 BN5 Sanchez $0.55

19 BP1 JJ $5.00 2
20 BP2 Viz $3.00
21 BP3 Freeman $0.55
22 BP4 Ramirez $0.55
23 BP5 Minter $0.55
24 BP6 Winkler $1.00
25 BP7 Wisler $0.55
Extra Kemp $18.25

Total $116.88 42

Assuming the bench provides 3 wins, and the BP provides 2 wins (double what they provided this year), 42 WAR + 48 puts the Braves right at the cusp of 90 wins in 2018 at a cost of $116M (which includes all of Kemp's salary).

If Newk or Folty is needed to acquire Piscotty, Gohara would slot into the rotation the first game a 5th SP is needed. Allard, Soroka, and Wright would be in AA/AAA ready to replace any SPs who falter.

Would not have guessed that they could do that under 120 million. Interesting post.

[Enscheff]

Would not have guessed that they could do that under 120 million. Interesting post.

The idea hinges on converting a lot of prospect capital into cheap OF production with Piscotty.

Approximately the same can be achieved by acquiring a more expensive but better LFer (like JD Martinez or JUp), and going with a Camargo/Ruiz platoon at 3B. It would probably also require getting rid of Matt Adams from the bench to save money. This route may actually be preferable.

[nsacpi]

The idea hinges on converting a lot of prospect capital into cheap OF production with Piscotty.

Approximately the same can be achieved by acquiring a more expensive but better LFer (like JD Martinez or JUp), and going with a Camargo/Ruiz platoon at 3B. It would probably also require getting rid of Matt Adams from the bench to save money. This route may actually be preferable.

I think what your exercise shows is the potential for growth once the dead weight at the corner outfield spots is replaced. And beyond 2018 this potential growth is greater as the Markakis and Kemp contracts expire.

[Chico]

I think what your exercise shows is the potential for growth once the dead weight at the corner outfield spots is replaced. And beyond 2018 this potential growth is greater as the Markakis and Kemp contracts expire.

We have a 3-4 year window before the youngsters start getting extensions and/or we're doling our arbitration salaries. I would not be surprised to see us acquire a SP, 3B, OF (if we mvoe on from both Kemp/Nick) and even a reliever or two on 3 year contracts or 4 if it's worth it. This will excite the fanbase to hopefully increase the gate and allow us to hold on to our prospects.

I know some will get upset and say we're "rushing the rebuild" but holding on to the prospects is the key.

[Hudson2]

I would not recommend "going for it" this offseason, but if the Braves do, here would be my "go for it" offseason plan:

1. Decline Dickey's option.
2. Sign Lynn for around 4/70 or Cobb for 3/50, whichever offers the best value.
3. DFA Kemp, or assume the Braves have to eat his entire contract.
4. Trade Markakis, assume the Braves have to eat about as much as they save in a Kemp trade.
5. Trade for Piscotty to play LF. He is having a down year due to poor luck. The last 3 seasons his xwOBA has been about .360, .345, .345, so he is hitting as good as ever. Piscotty is owed 6/46 or 5/32, which is probably a surplus value in the range of $90M. The Braves will have to pay in prospects accordingly.
6. Sign Todd Frazier for around 3/50.
7. Leave Acuna in AAA for a few weeks to start the season.

That leaves the Braves with the following 2018 roster after Acuna is promoted:

# Pos Player Salary WAR
1 C Flowers $4.00 4 (adding framing runs saved)
2 1B Freeman $21.00 6
3 2B Albies $0.55 4
4 3B Frazier $17.00 2.5
5 SS Swanson $0.55 2
6 LF Piscotty $1.33 2.5
7 CF Inciarte $4.70 3
8 RF Acuna $0.55 2

9 SP1 Teheran $8.00 2
10 SP2 Folty $4.00 2
11 SP3 Lynn/Cobb $18.00 3
12 SP4 Newk $0.55 2
13 SP5 Fried $0.55 2

14 BN1 M Adams $4.00 3
15 BN2 Camargo $0.55
16 BN3 Santana $1.00
17 BN4 L Adams $0.55
18 BN5 Sanchez $0.55

19 BP1 JJ $5.00 2
20 BP2 Viz $3.00
21 BP3 Freeman $0.55
22 BP4 Ramirez $0.55
23 BP5 Minter $0.55
24 BP6 Winkler $1.00
25 BP7 Wisler $0.55
Extra Kemp $18.25

Total $116.88 42

Assuming the bench provides 3 wins, and the BP provides 2 wins (double what they provided this year), 42 WAR + 48 puts the Braves right at the cusp of 90 wins in 2018 at a cost of $116M (which includes all of Kemp's salary).

If Newk or Folty is needed to acquire Piscotty, Gohara would slot into the rotation the first game a 5th SP is needed. Allard, Soroka, and Wright would be in AA/AAA ready to replace any SPs who falter.

Good post. I see them doing several thing so they don't suck going into year 2 of the new stadium. Kemp is an albatross but maybe we could eat all but maybe 5 million of his dea bc I'm sure an AL team wouldn't mind him at DH. I like the Piscotty idea but I'm. It sure what it'd take to get him. Would you choose Lynn or Cobb? I like Cobb more.

[cajunrevenge]

I like the Enscheff plan outside of Frazier. Used to be big on him but feels like he is due to fall off a cliff. I think we would end up with another Melvin situation. For the starters I would prefer Cobb. I like Piscotty, I have a thing for pure hitting prospects with moderate power. One of the few college bats I ever liked. I would like to see us sign one good relieve too. I know it's bad value but that pen just isn't good enough even assuming JJ rebounds. We aren't going to get anywhere with an average pen. God help us if Vizcaino or Minter go down and JJ does not rebound.

[nsacpi]

Polanco is another young outfielder on a very good contract having a disappointing season. He would probably cost more than Piscotty, but he brings some better qualities as well and we might match up better with the Pirates.

[mfree80]

Every now and then we still bring up Dustin Petersen. Not as sexy an option as some of the guys we are talking about, but we already own him, and he seems to have earned a chance.

[Enscheff]

I mainly targeted Piscotty because the Cards are almost certainly going to deal an OFer this winter, and his down year might've lowered the price to acquire him even though I contend he is hitting as well as ever (.340+ xwOBA).

I have no preference between Cobb and Lynn. Lynn will probably be better, but Cobb will be cheaper, so I would go for the guy providing the best value.

The same overall goal can be accomplished with other OF targets (like JD or JUp) paired with other 3B targets...even Camargo at 3B. Dumping MAdams is another way to free up some payroll.

I'm in the "wait another year" boat, but it is plausible to construct a roster with real potential to win 85-90 games this offseason.

[steveAKAslick]

The idea hinges on converting a lot of prospect capital into cheap OF production with Piscotty.

Approximately the same can be achieved by acquiring a more expensive but better LFer (like JD Martinez or JUp), and going with a Camargo/Ruiz platoon at 3B. It would probably also require getting rid of Matt Adams from the bench to save money. This route may actually be preferable.

Yeah I wouldn’t have imagined it could have been done at those $ numbers either, who’s the Sanchez you have on the bench though? suppose Dickey retires, he hinted at it last night after the game...what’s the move then?

https://sports.yahoo.com/r-dickey-may-retire-123018963.html

[BeanieAntics]

I mainly targeted Piscotty because the Cards are almost certainly going to deal an OFer this winter, and his down year might've lowered the price to acquire him even though I contend he is hitting as well as ever (.340+ xwOBA).

I have no preference between Cobb and Lynn. Lynn will probably be better, but Cobb will be cheaper, so I would go for the guy providing the best value.

The same overall goal can be accomplished with other OF targets (like JD or JUp) paired with other 3B targets...even Camargo at 3B. Dumping MAdams is another way to free up some payroll.

I'm in the "wait another year" boat, but it is plausible to construct a roster with real potential to win 85-90 games this offseason.

I would love to compete next year if it were possible without leveraging the sustainability of the rebuild, but I'm with you. I think kicking the can down the road to 2019 is the best move. I've always argued that, in a rebuild, the 2 things that will make it highly successful is tanking as much as possible early on, and being as patient as possible in regards to when you decide to begin your competitive window.

The Braves have been fairly mediocre with the first part by making these weird trades/signings to try to sanitize the product on the field. But I think they have been good at staying relatively patient and not making any moves that could threaten to unravel the rebuild. This offseason is gonna be big in seeing if that trend continues. I hope we stand pat for the most part, but I do fear that Ensheff may be right and we do some weird hybrid.

[mfree80]

Yeah I wouldn’t have imagined it could have been done at those $ numbers either, who’s the Sanchez you have on the bench though? suppose Dickey retires, he hinted at it last night after the game...what’s the move then?

https://sports.yahoo.com/r-dickey-may-retire-123018963.html

Isn't Sanchez the backup catcher we got for Brandon Phillips? His history with the Pirates suggest he could be more than organizational depth.

[steveAKAslick]

Isn't Sanchez the backup catcher we got for Brandon Phillips? His history with the Pirates suggest he could be more than organizational depth.

He’s been DFA’ed already, I think when Adonis came back

[Enscheff]

This article pretty much confirms what I already suspected: the Braves have no money to spend on roster additions this offseason because they failed to meet projected revenues.

http://markbradley.blog.myajc.com/2017/09/24/the-braves-in-2018-snitker-could-return-but-much-will-change/

- The Braves “won’t be playing in big free-agent pitching waters,” preferring instead to give opportunities to younger pitchers.

- The Braves’ biggest priority this winter will be relief pitching Coppolella says. The team will look for one reliever or “preferably two.”

If their big spending plans are maybe exercising Dickey's option and adding a piece or 2 to the BP, I think it's pretty safe to conclude they have no money to spend. Even my idea based around a payroll of $120M is probably wildly out of the Braves price range.

Now....where are the pozzies? I need them to tell me the Braves will have a Top 10 payroll due to the massive success of Suntrust Park and the money printing press known as The Battery. I can't wait for the pozzy spin on this.

[msstate7]

This article pretty much confirms what I already suspected: the Braves have no money to spend on roster additions this offseason because they failed to meet projected revenues.

http://markbradley.blog.myajc.com/2017/09/24/the-braves-in-2018-snitker-could-return-but-much-will-change/

- The Braves “won’t be playing in big free-agent pitching waters,” preferring instead to give opportunities to younger pitchers.

- The Braves’ biggest priority this winter will be relief pitching Coppolella says. The team will look for one reliever or “preferably two.”

If their big spending plans are maybe exercising Dickey's option and adding a piece or 2 to the BP, I think it's pretty safe to conclude they have no money to spend. Even my idea based around a payroll of $120M is probably wildly out of the Braves price range.

Now....where are the pozzies? I need them to tell me the Braves will have a Top 10 payroll due to the massive success of Suntrust Park and the money printing press known as The Battery. I can't wait for the pozzy spin on this.

Good. I want a rotation of Teheran, folty, gohara, Newcomb, and dickey/fried/sims with hopefully allard, soroka, and touki getting close to pushing their way in by the end of the season

[bravesfanMatt]

I predict many teams to not dabble in the big free agent market this off season. Not much there and most teams are going to wait just one more year. I too hope they don't dabble in this FA market call it cheap. Call it strategic. Just call me in on the idea.

[Enscheff]

I predict many teams to not dabble in the big free agent market this off season. Not much there and most teams are going to wait just one more year. I too hope they don't dabble in this FA market call it cheap. Call it strategic. Just call me in on the idea.

Now I see how to pozzy spin this...

The poor play in 2017 was masterfully orchestrated by Coppy so the Braves didn't have the payroll to waste money on FAs this year. That forces them to rebuild for 1 more year, which is what they should have done anyways. This was the only way Coppy could circumvent the meddling simpletons still in the FO.

That Coppy is one smart cookie!!

[ramadon101]

The part of that article that troubles me the most isn't what was said but what wasn't - yes he alludes to Albies in reference to mentioning Acuna forcing his way into the majors but heaps praise on Swanson's post-demotion play (without nary a reference to his struggles against sliders) but never once mentions Albies being a permanent fixture with the team.

If they trade Albies ....

[The Chosen One]

Theyre going to trade Acuna and Albies since they were Wren signings.

Just to prove that they only want Braves' Way players coming through the system to rep us.

[Chico]

I wouldn't read too much in to anything said this early in the offseason. Everything is politician speak.

[cajunrevenge]

It wouldn't bother me as much if they traded Albies now. He has hit well and still has 6 years of service time left. That's a **** ton more valuable than a AAA prospect that you don't know how well they will adjust yo the majors. Just like Swanson was more valuable during the off-season because he hit well in the majors at the end of 2016.

[Enscheff]

I wouldn't read too much in to anything said this early in the offseason. Everything is politician speak.

ooooooof course it is.

It's all spin talk until pozzies like the results. At that point, they meant it!

[bravesfanMatt]

ooooooof course it is.

It's all spin talk until pozzies like the results. At that point, they meant it!

How does this article speak to the Braves financials? Why would the braves swim in the deep end of the FA pool this year? We are not going for Darvish or Jake.. we have several young pitchers who need starts anyway. What positional players are we going for. 3rd? nothing exciting.. OF... nothing to over spend on. I think a lot o teams who have money to spend will not spend big on FA this year. I am not even saying you are wrong. I am saying this article doesn't prove you are right.

[Enscheff]

How does this article speak to the Braves financials? Why would the braves swim in the deep end of the FA pool this year? We are not going for Darvish or Jake.. we have several young pitchers who need starts anyway. What positional players are we going for. 3rd? nothing exciting.. OF... nothing to over spend on. I think a lot o teams who have money to spend will not spend big on FA this year. I am not even saying you are wrong. I am saying this article doesn't prove you are right.

oooooof course you don't.

You also aren't using this bit of info in context of every other bit of news we've gotten.

So don't worry. All is well in rebuildville!!

[Knucksie]

Theyre going to trade Acuna and Albies since they were Wren signings.

Just to prove that they only want Braves' Way players coming through the system to rep us.

Certainly, they want to put their own stamp on lineup construction. At the same time, roster changes aren't going to be based on whether or not Wren was involved. Obviously, there were Wren multiyear contracts removed, except for Freeman and Teheran, but philosophical differences are from the team's status. Remember Arab was a Schuerholz lieutenant, just like Dayton Moore (who's suddenly unpopular around here).

[Southcack77]

How does this article speak to the Braves financials? Why would the braves swim in the deep end of the FA pool this year? We are not going for Darvish or Jake.. we have several young pitchers who need starts anyway. What positional players are we going for. 3rd? nothing exciting.. OF... nothing to over spend on. I think a lot o teams who have money to spend will not spend big on FA this year. I am not even saying you are wrong. I am saying this article doesn't prove you are right.


There is probably some financial journalism or sports biz journals that would be speak to things better, but extrapolating financial distress from that interview is puzzling.

The Liberty reporting for Q3 will be interesting in December.

Q2 Braves data looked ok from base line. The Braves were up 66% in profits from 2Q 2016 (before depreciation and amortization). They estimated that the Battery at 70% leased and the remainder of the project on schedule and budget.

Now they were up 37% in attendance through August 7 and looks like they are finishing at about 25% above, so they will not see the same increases in 3Q profits above 2016, but they are still going to be ahead (before depreciation and amortization).

They don't seem to break out the Battery from other operations, so it hard to figure how well that is doing.

Personally, I don't see the Braves as being a big market team again before they get a market rate television deal. They are in fact a big market, but they've been handcuffed.

[mfree80]

oooooof course you don't.

You also aren't using this bit of info in context of every other bit of news we've gotten.

So don't worry. All is well in rebuildville!!

I see the clues that you guys are talking about, but I am not sure I follow all the way to the conclusions you are drawing from them.

Time will tell...

[Enscheff]

I see the clues that you guys are talking about, but I am not sure I follow all the way to the conclusions you are drawing from them.

Time will tell...

The total payroll this offseason will tell us all we need to know. Anything less than $120M shows revenue is not meeting projections.

Of course pozzies still won't be willing to pull their head out of the sand. It's too warm and cozy in there.