Baseball America Top 100 Released

[CJ9]

The numbers in parenthesis are where the player ranked in the midseason 2017 version.

Acuna 1 (10)
Gohara 23 (76)
Soroka 27 (33)
Wright 34 (41)
Anderson 42 (55)
Riley 54 (NR)
Allard 65 (23)
Fried 72 (NR)

https://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/top-100-mlb-prospects-2018/?utm_content=buffer20dce&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#kMUB3Mk41zSmXLV2.97

[CJ9]

Keith Law also released his 51-100 prospect rankings today. I think 1-50 come out tomorrow.

I feel like a lot of these lists generally have the same guys on them, but Law is always a little more bold with his. He had six Braves 51-100:

Pache 57
Soroka 60
Bryse Wilson 68
Fried 77
Touki 90
Wentz 96

[BeanieAntics]

Oh wow Riley at 54 is WAYYY higher than I thought. I figured that he had worked his way onto BA's top 100, given they like his defense so much (lol). But 54 is really high for him. I'm curious where he ends up on FG's list. Still, its pretty impressive that we have three picks from the 2016 draft in the top 65. Cool to see the first list have Acuna at #1 as well.

[thethe]

Absolutely sick the amount of talent amassed the last three years.

Fried is still a legit prospect and I wouldn't mind seeing a trade to get him into the rotation.

[thethe]

Keith Law also released his 51-100 prospect rankings today. I think 1-50 come out tomorrow.

I feel like a lot of these lists generally have the same guys on them, but Law is always a little more bold with his. He had six Braves 51-100:

Pache 57
Soroka 60
Bryse Wilson 68
Fried 77
Touki 90
Wentz 96

Law is definitely the outlier when it comes to Soroka. I think most view him as a control/moxy guy but his stuff is damn good in terms of velocity and movement.

[BeanieAntics]

Keith Law also released his 51-100 prospect rankings today. I think 1-50 come out tomorrow.

I feel like a lot of these lists generally have the same guys on them, but Law is always a little more bold with his. He had six Braves 51-100:

Pache 57
Soroka 60
Bryse Wilson 68
Fried 77
Touki 90
Wentz 96

Now this one is just silly lol. What is he gonna have TWELVE Braves prospects on his list? I love the Braves and I don't think we have more than maybe 9. Maybe he isn't very high on a few guys others are high on. Wonder if there is any chance he leaves off any of the Acuna, Gohara, Anderson, Riley, Allard, Wright group. I just don't see how he can. Say what you want, but there is no way that Touki is currently a better prospect than Allard or Riley lol. I'm REALLY interested in seeing his 1-50 tomorrow

[Chico]

If you’re looking for a progress report to give you the warm and fuzzies you gotta like BA’s list.
If you’re looking for quantity you gotta like Law’s. We should have at least 11 on his full list not counting Riley in there.

[mqt]

Now this one is just silly lol. What is he gonna have TWELVE Braves prospects on his list? I love the Braves and I don't think we have more than maybe 9. Maybe he isn't very high on a few guys others are high on. Wonder if there is any chance he leaves off any of the Acuna, Gohara, Anderson, Riley, Allard, Wright group. I just don't see how he can. Say what you want, but there is no way that Touki is currently a better prospect than Allard or Riley lol. I'm REALLY interested in seeing his 1-50 tomorrow

You can expect Riley to be off his list. I wouldn't be floored if Allard or Anderson aren't on it, but he liked them last year. My guess is they both wind up on it and we end up with 11.

[Chico]

You can expect Riley to be off his list. I wouldn't be floored if Allard or Anderson aren't on it, but he liked them last year. My guess is they both wind up on it and we end up with 11.
My guess as well

[BeanieAntics]

If you’re looking for a progress report to give you the warm and fuzzies you gotta like BA’s list.
If you’re looking for quantity you gotta like Law’s. We should have at least 11 on his full list not counting Riley in there.

Oh yeah I forgot that Law has always been highly skeptical of Riley as a prospect. Still, it is baffling that he has Touki as a better prospect. I love me some Touki and still think the guy has upside, but I didn't even consider him as a top 100 candidate.

[UNCBlue012]

This farm system can most definitely take the hit on a Yelich trade... just saying. Incredible depth.

[thethe]

Now this one is just silly lol. What is he gonna have TWELVE Braves prospects on his list? I love the Braves and I don't think we have more than maybe 9. Maybe he isn't very high on a few guys others are high on. Wonder if there is any chance he leaves off any of the Acuna, Gohara, Anderson, Riley, Allard, Wright group. I just don't see how he can. Say what you want, but there is no way that Touki is currently a better prospect than Allard or Riley lol. I'm REALLY interested in seeing his 1-50 tomorrow

Law goes with stuff and not many pitchers in the minor leagues have Toukis stuff.

[thethe]

You can expect Riley to be off his list. I wouldn't be floored if Allard or Anderson aren't on it, but he liked them last year. My guess is they both wind up on it and we end up with 11.

Law has always been super high on Allard. I don't see anyway he is off the list. Same goes for Anderson.

I doubt Riley makes his list though. He has always been bearish on him.

[BeanieAntics]

The rest of the grades are locked behind a paywall, but here are Acuna's grades according to BA:

Hit: 60 - Power: 70 - Speed: 70 - Glove: 70 - Arm: 60

I think those are a half grade too high, except for maybe his arm and hit tool. I think I would have him at a 60/65/65/65/60. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I'm just really reluctant to grade out three tools as being a 70 grade.

[NYCBrave]

The numbers in parenthesis are where the player ranked in the midseason 2017 version.

Acuna 1 (10)
Gohara 23 (76)
Soroka 27 (33)
Wright 34 (41)
Anderson 42 (55)
Riley 54 (NR)
Allard 65 (23)
Fried 72 (NR)

https://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/top-100-mlb-prospects-2018/?utm_content=buffer20dce&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#kMUB3Mk41zSmXLV2.97

The one that surprised me the most is Ian Anderson. I thought if anything he's have taken a step back on these lists after last year.

[BeanieAntics]

The one that surprised me the most is Ian Anderson. I thought if anything he's have taken a step back on these lists after last year.

Nah I still think evaluators are really high on Anderson. He posted a respectable enough ERA in Rome, but he backed it up with some elite K/9 numbers. I think anywhere from 40-60 would have been right for him.

[thethe]

There was reporting last year that Anderson was throwing 95-98 with plus movement on his fastball. The results for a pitcher that young are secondary to what people are watching/charting.

[thethe]

The rest of the grades are locked behind a paywall, but here are Acuna's grades according to BA:

Hit: 60 - Power: 70 - Speed: 70 - Glove: 70 - Arm: 60

I think those are a half grade too high, except for maybe his arm and hit tool. I think I would have him at a 60/65/65/65/60. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I'm just really reluctant to grade out three tools as being a 70 grade.

I mean - Those grade....wow

[Hudson2]

Maitan not on the list. Riley has jumped big time!

[Deester11]

There was reporting last year that Anderson was throwing 95-98 with plus movement on his fastball. The results for a pitcher that young are secondary to what people are watching/charting.

Not necessarily disputing those reports but Ian was not sitting there at that velocity. I saw all of Rome pitchers 3-4 times each. He was better at 93-94-ish when I saw him. I was excited about him but enjoyed Wentz the most. It's probably subjective because Wentz was on fire everytime I saw him. That being said, Ian looked the part.

[zbhargrove]

There was reporting last year that Anderson was throwing 95-98 with plus movement on his fastball. The results for a pitcher that young are secondary to what people are watching/charting.

Think you're remembering something wrong. There were never reports of his velocity in that range

[Jaw]

Not necessarily disputing those reports but Ian was not sitting there at that velocity. I saw all of Rome pitchers 3-4 times each. He was better at 93-94-ish when I saw him. I was excited about him but enjoyed Wentz the most. It's probably subjective because Wentz was on fire everytime I saw him. That being said, Ian looked the part.

Yep. I only saw him once, but anything above the low 90s seemed to consistently sail high. I'm curious to see how that plays at higher levels, but I'm not optimistic on it unless he can rein it in quite a bit.

Agreed on Wentz, the guy has an "it" factor.

[jpx7]

Think you're remembering something wrong. There were never reports of his velocity in that range

It's the old thethe bump. It's confused Chip, too, but for other reasons.

[thewupk]

I think Riley is a rung too high (likely due to BA really liking his defense) but other that it's not a bad list at all.

[Hudson2]

Even after having the international guys taken we still have the best farm system in baseball. That’s amazing to me. And that’s after graduating Swanson and Albies. Hopefully AA can trade for a low Comp pick before the draft.

[TheBravos]

Even after having the international guys taken we still have the best farm system in baseball. That’s amazing to me. And that’s after graduating Swanson and Albies. Hopefully AA can trade for a low Comp pick before the draft.

Yeah....pretty crazy.

[Russ2dollas]

The numbers in parenthesis are where the player ranked in the midseason 2017 version.

Acuna 1 (10)
Gohara 23 (76)
Soroka 27 (33)
Wright 34 (41)
Anderson 42 (55)
Riley 54 (NR)
Allard 65 (23)
Fried 72 (NR)

https://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/top-100-mlb-prospects-2018/?utm_content=buffer20dce&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#kMUB3Mk41zSmXLV2.97

Great list.

Top 10 pick coming soon too. Still have waves of pitchers. Still have some young position guys that are not on the list that have a shot like encarnacion and cruz.

Riley is not a guy Klaw likes. He's been very clear that he thinks the d is only ok and the bat is too slow. BA likes the D and has listed a lot of guys with avg bat speed that did well. From everything I've read I really like Riley but i'd be ok if we sold high on him. I do not think the idea of him being our 3B this year or next makes any sense. He is a power guy and power comes later. He should get a full year at AA this and a full year at AAA the following year before considering anything else. This is reason 1783 that I love the idea of a short term Frazier signing for 3B.

Klaw's write up on Wentz is interesting. Really plays up his deception in the delivery for why he gets away with his low velocity FB. I wonder if he could be a Alex Wood type guy. Wood threw harder and throws even harder now. But I think young Alex wood was 92 ish. Wentz is still very young and might be able to get that 88-90 up to 90-92.

I really wish we could convince the Brewers that they can give up an OF and we can give up someone from the Fried, Newcombe, Simms, Folty, Tehran group. Package dependent on the OF they are willing to part with.

[50PoundHead]

Great list.

Top 10 pick coming soon too. Still have waves of pitchers. Still have some young position guys that are not on the list that have a shot like encarnacion and cruz.

Riley is not a guy Klaw likes. He's been very clear that he thinks the d is only ok and the bat is too slow. BA likes the D and has listed a lot of guys with avg bat speed that did well. From everything I've read I really like Riley but i'd be ok if we sold high on him. I do not think the idea of him being our 3B this year or next makes any sense. He is a power guy and power comes later. He should get a full year at AA this and a full year at AAA the following year before considering anything else. This is reason 1783 that I love the idea of a short term Frazier signing for 3B.

Klaw's write up on Wentz is interesting. Really plays up his deception in the delivery for why he gets away with his low velocity FB. I wonder if he could be a Alex Wood type guy. Wood threw harder and throws even harder now. But I think young Alex wood was 92 ish. Wentz is still very young and might be able to get that 88-90 up to 90-92.

I really wish we could convince the Brewers that they can give up an OF and we can give up someone from the Fried, Newcombe, Simms, Folty, Tehran group. Package dependent on the OF they are willing to part with.

After his second stint on the DL in 2017, Wood's velocity came back down to 90-92. It's too early to compare Wentz to him or anyone else, but the uptick in Wood's velocity in the first half of 2017 when he was lights-out didn't hold up over the rest of the season. I won't bother speculating as to why that might have been.

[Deester11]

After his second stint on the DL in 2017, Wood's velocity came back down to 90-92. It's too early to compare Wentz to him or anyone else, but the uptick in Wood's velocity in the first half of 2017 when he was lights-out didn't hold up over the rest of the season. I won't bother speculating as to why that might have been.
I know Jaw saw him once, but I did 4 times I know. No way in heck Wentz was at 88-90. He was low 90's and devastated some good lineups. Scouting is inexact but I like him a lot. A few scouts said the same thing. In any case he was sustain it soon.

[jpx7]

I know Jaw saw him once, but I did 4 times I know. No way in heck Wentz was at 88-90. He was low 90's and devastated some good lineups. Scouting is inexact but I like him a lot. A few scouts said the same thing. In any case he was sustain it soon.

I think Jaw was referring to Anderson when saying that "anything above the low 90s seemed to consistently sail high." The only thing he mentioned about Wentz was that "the guy has an 'it' factor."

[thewupk]

So Moniak, Phillies #2 overall pick in 2016, is not even on this top 100 list. I know a lot of disagree about taking Anderson a spot later but damn that's harsh.

[Deester11]

I think Jaw was referring to Anderson when saying that "anything above the low 90s seemed to consistently sail high." The only thing he mentioned about Wentz was that "the guy has an 'it' factor."
No.I got that part. I probably was referring to other posts talking about Wentz 's velo.

[Heyward]

Braves have the prospect capital to take the hit on a Yelich trade as long as Acuna isnt involved (i know thats who they asked for, but you start high then settle for common ground)

[thethe]

So Moniak, Phillies #2 overall pick in 2016, is not even on this top 100 list. I know a lot of disagree about taking Anderson a spot later but damn that's harsh.

Anderson is over the board favorite Lewis as well. I'm sure thats with the injuries baked in but still...

[BeanieAntics]

On the chat today BA said that there was an intense debate between Acuna, Ohtani, and Vlad. I'm honestly floored that they put Acuna at number 1. I mean, Acuna really is special and all, but the best pitching prospect we have seen in years that also has a chance to contribute with the stick? That is truly a once in a lifetime type prospect. It speaks really highly of what folks think about Acuna that they put him above Ohtani.

[bravesfanMatt]

So Moniak, Phillies #2 overall pick in 2016, is not even on this top 100 list. I know a lot of disagree about taking Anderson a spot later but damn that's harsh.

That was a weird pick. I was never high on Moniak and he hasn't let me down.

[50PoundHead]

That was a weird pick. I was never high on Moniak and he hasn't let me down.

I liked (and still like) Moniak, but there will be questions as to whether or not he will ever develop any power. Great hitting mechanics, but to be in the top one hundred, you pretty much have to show you can drive the ball consistently.

[mqt]

So Moniak, Phillies #2 overall pick in 2016, is not even on this top 100 list. I know a lot of disagree about taking Anderson a spot later but damn that's harsh.

It's actually even worse than that. He was the top overall pick that year. As it stands, only Puk and Bichette rank ahead of Anderson from the 2016 class from what I can tell.

[thewupk]

It's actually even worse than that. He was the top overall pick that year. As it stands, only Puk and Bichette rank ahead of Anderson from the 2016 class from what I can tell.

Yeah I apparently can't read. He obviously has time to turn things around and it's only one listing but it doesn't look good at all.

[thewupk]

Anderson is over the board favorite Lewis as well. I'm sure thats with the injuries baked in but still...

To me it's clear it's with injuries baked in but that's part of the game.

[thewupk]

On the chat today BA said that there was an intense debate between Acuna, Ohtani, and Vlad. I'm honestly floored that they put Acuna at number 1. I mean, Acuna really is special and all, but the best pitching prospect we have seen in years that also has a chance to contribute with the stick? That is truly a once in a lifetime type prospect. It speaks really highly of what folks think about Acuna that they put him above Ohtani.


They do their ranking similar to how the writers do the mvp. They have like 5 guys who ranks players 1-150 and decide their top 100 on who has the most points. Apparently 1 point separated Acuna, Ohtani, and Vlad which is pretty insane.

[bravesfanMatt]

I liked (and still like) Moniak, but there will be questions as to whether or not he will ever develop any power. Great hitting mechanics, but to be in the top one hundred, you pretty much have to show you can drive the ball consistently.

Had a disappointing season all around. Doesn’t upset me if the Failies wiff on that pick

[thewupk]

Also Maitian is out of their top 100. So either BA really has issues with their rankings or Coppy really blew his load hard on a bunch of crap prospects. lol

[msstate7]

Also Maitian is out of their top 100. So either BA really has issues with their rankings or Coppy really blew his load hard on a bunch of crap prospects. lol

I hate to hate on maitan, but I will feel much better if he never amounts to much

[BeanieAntics]

It's actually even worse than that. He was the top overall pick that year. As it stands, only Puk and Bichette rank ahead of Anderson from the 2016 class from what I can tell.

Senzel and Whitley

[bravesfanMatt]

I hate to hate on maitan, but I will feel much better if he never amounts to much

Imagine the outrage here if he was still with us. But yeah. I am hoping coppy was wrong on him and he gets to panda’s weight

[thewupk]

Senzel and Whitley

Would of been the perfect pick for the Braves.

[thewupk]

Imagine the outrage here if he was still with us. But yeah. I am hoping coppy was wrong on him and he gets to panda’s weight

I already assumed he was going to fall hard after they had Riley ahead of him in the Braves top 10.

[bravesfanMatt]

Would of been the perfect pick for the Braves.

Yeah. Wanted him to be there at 3.

[thethe]

Meh...riley is going to be just fine

[thethe]

955783246868033536

Wow at Allard not making the list

[CJ9]

Law was one of the biggest Allard believers about a year ago, so him not making the list should make it clear to everyone how much his stock has fallen.

[Skeeter31]

Law was one of the biggest Allard believers about a year ago, so him not making the list should make it clear to everyone how much his stock has fallen.

Or do you ever think these guys have to write so many of these lists that they actually forget a few prospects here and there. I’m sure it happens and then the writer has to explain it away as if he meant to do it.

[thethe]

Unless Allard is sitting in the high 80s I don't see how this makes sense. He was 19 in AA last year and did great.

[CJ9]

Or do you ever think these guys have to write so many of these lists that they actually forget a few prospects here and there. I’m sure it happens and then the writer has to explain it away as if he meant to do it.

Considering Allard took a steep fall on Baseball America and will do the same on Pipeline, I'm guessing that's not what happened.

[Hudson2]

Allard is still a no doubt top 75 prospect in baseball regardless of who’s list it is. Also Acuna is #1 again on another list. Chipper called him the next Trout and said there’s nothing he doesn’t do great.

[mqt]

Unless Allard is sitting in the high 80s I don't see how this makes sense. He was 19 in AA last year and did great.

The consensus seems to be that his fastball isn't very good, and that he was getting away with stuff that flies in the minors but will eventually be an issue in the Majors.

What surprises me is believing in Touki enough to put him in the Top 100 but only having Gohara 50th. You'd think whatever methodology allows you to rank Touki would put Gohara really high.

[TheBravos]

If we could get Yelich for a package built around Allard...I’d be in. If pigs could fly also...

[thewupk]

If we could get Yelich for a package built around Allard...I’d be in. If pigs could fly also...

Build it around Touki, Fried, Allard, etc

Truthfully anybody but Acuna, Wright, and Gohara I'd be ok building a package around for Yelich

[Hudson2]

Build it around Touki, Fried, Allard, etc

Truthfully anybody but Acuna, Wright, and Gohara I'd be ok building a package around for Yelich

This all day. I’ve said all along that those 3 are untouchable but anybody else is up for grabs for Yelich.

[thewupk]

This all day. I’ve said all along that those 3 are untouchable but anybody else is up for grabs for Yelich.

Yup. Acuna is obviously one of the top 3 prospects in baseball depending on what you value and Gohara and Wright are 1a and 1b for Braves pitching prospects and imo the 2 with the best shot at being top of the rotation guys.

[Hudson2]

Yup. Acuna is obviously one of the top 3 prospects in baseball depending on what you value and Gohara and Wright are 1a and 1b for Braves pitching prospects and imo the 2 with the best shot at being top of the rotation guys.

Yep and we can’t abandon the rebuild and trade the best 3 guys of the bunch for 1 player. We should have enough ammo from the other prospects and some of the mlb guys to get a deal done.

[Jaw]

I think Jaw was referring to Anderson when saying that "anything above the low 90s seemed to consistently sail high." The only thing he mentioned about Wentz was that "the guy has an 'it' factor."

Yep. I'll be shocked if Anderson amounts to much, and disappointed if Wentz doesn't have a nice career.

But I also wanted to lock up Francoeur long term and was sure Kyle Davies would turn the corner. I won't pretend to be able to scout anything by judgement, but I can say based on facts that when I saw Anderson, he went high and wild when he threw hard.

[BeanieAntics]

I hate to hate on maitan, but I will feel much better if he never amounts to much

Hey, are you going to be at the MSU/USM series to open the college season? I live in Hattiesburg and will probably be going to that. Baseball America just came out with their rankings and this is the first time in a while that USM has been ranked in the preseason, so I'm fairly hyped for the season.

[BeanieAntics]

Law released his top 50. Anderson at 48, Wright at 26, and Acuna at number 1!!.... Acuna may end up being the consensus #1 overall. I'm really surprised that he left Allard off the list and put names like Wentz, Touki, and Wilson on there. I definitely think Allard took a step back, but I would still have him above all three of those guys.

Edit: He also has Gohara at 50. I'm not sure if he released that ranking yesterday or today

[thewupk]

Law released his top 50. Anderson at 48, Wright at 26, and Acuna at number 1!!.... Acuna may end up being the consensus #1 overall. I'm really surprised that he left Allard off the list and put names like Wentz, Touki, and Wilson on there. I definitely think Allard took a step back, but I would still have him above all three of those guys.

There will still be some that prefer Guerreor Jr and Ohtani. Of the 5 voters for Baseball America's top 100 they all split the #1 overall vote. But that's just splitting hairs. Acuna is clearly viewed as a beast.

[BeanieAntics]

There will still be some that prefer Guerreor Jr and Ohtani. Of the 5 voters for Baseball America's top 100 they all split the #1 overall vote. But that's just splitting hairs. Acuna is clearly viewed as a beast.

Oh yeah of course. I was just talking about across major publications.

[Hudson2]

He had to of forgotten Allard bc nobody but him would put Wentz, Touki, and Wilson in front of Allard.

[ball4life32]

So Moniak, Phillies #2 overall pick in 2016, is not even on this top 100 list. I know a lot of disagree about taking Anderson a spot later but damn that's harsh.

Moniak actually went #1 overall in 2016

[Russ2dollas]

He had to of forgotten Allard bc nobody but him would put Wentz, Touki, and Wilson in front of Allard.

in the thread on twitter where he posted this article he says he did not forget Allard.

[Russ2dollas]

Moniak actually went #1 overall in 2016

I never doubted the Anderson pick. My beef was with the meaningless wins that kept us from having the second pick. I wanted Senzel and we should have had him. Once he was gone I was good with Anderson.

[BeanieAntics]

I never doubted the Anderson pick. My beef was with the meaningless wins that kept us from having the second pick. I wanted Senzel and we should have had him. Once he was gone I was good with Anderson.

Anderson did save us over 2 million in slot money over Senzel. So if we would have picked Senzel we likely could have only had 1 of Wentz, Wilson, Cumberland, and Muller. So I guess the binary would be would you rather have Anderson and those 4, or Senzel and Wentz. I still probably fall in the camp of preferring Senzel.

[bravesfanMatt]

Anderson did save us over 2 million in slot money over Senzel. So if we would have picked Senzel we likely could have only had 1 of Wentz, Wilson, Cumberland, and Muller. So I guess the binary would be would you rather have Anderson and those 4, or Senzel and Wentz. I still probably fall in the camp of preferring Senzel.

How much more slot money do you have picking one slot higher.

[Enscheff]

Allard is still a no doubt top 75 prospect in baseball regardless of who’s list it is. Also Acuna is #1 again on another list. Chipper called him the next Trout and said there’s nothing he doesn’t do great.

Well if Chipper said so!!

[Enscheff]

Anderson did save us over 2 million in slot money over Senzel. So if we would have picked Senzel we likely could have only had 1 of Wentz, Wilson, Cumberland, and Muller. So I guess the binary would be would you rather have Anderson and those 4, or Senzel and Wentz. I still probably fall in the camp of preferring Senzel.

I don't think the answer to this is even a debate, especially given the benefit of hindsight.

[bravesfanMatt]

How much more slot money do you have picking one slot higher.

Would have had 1.3 more roughly when you add up the other rounds. I am sure Coppy could have swung a few more cars to get everyone signed.

[Carp]

The consensus seems to be that his fastball isn't very good, and that he was getting away with stuff that flies in the minors but will eventually be an issue in the Majors.

What surprises me is believing in Touki enough to put him in the Top 100 but only having Gohara 50th. You'd think whatever methodology allows you to rank Touki would put Gohara really high.

It is strange. Especially with Gohara already having mild success in his first stint in the majors. Assuming he stays healthy, I think Gohara has both a high floor and a high ceiling.

[Russ2dollas]

It is strange. Especially with Gohara already having mild success in his first stint in the majors. Assuming he stays healthy, I think Gohara has both a high floor and a high ceiling.

Gohara has concerns with that change. He has weight issues. Klaw has mentioned concern with alcohol and if that crops up with wealth and pressure.

I think Gohara is ranked well at 50.

[Russ2dollas]

Anderson did save us over 2 million in slot money over Senzel. So if we would have picked Senzel we likely could have only had 1 of Wentz, Wilson, Cumberland, and Muller. So I guess the binary would be would you rather have Anderson and those 4, or Senzel and Wentz. I still probably fall in the camp of preferring Senzel.

I don't think anyone is going to take Anderson, Wentz, Cumberland, Mueller over Senzel and Wentz.

Plus the winning was just dumb to begin with. Even if we would have screwed the pick up and picked Anderson at 2 we would have had a million more to spend.

[striker42]

I think Anderson is going to disappoint a lot of people. There are some legitimate control issues there and I don't think the stuff is quite as high end as you read some places (I think the 92-94 is more accurate than the 95-98). I could easily see him fall into the Matt Wisler mold.

[Heyward]

Build it around Touki, Fried, Allard, etc

Truthfully anybody but Acuna, Wright, and Gohara I'd be ok building a package around for Yelich

Acuna and Ozzie are off limits for me.

I'd hate to part with Wright or Gohara, but if it was the missing piece in a deal, i wouldnt budge on it.

[clvclv]

A couple of snippets not mentioned by the Riley haters - it's not JUST Baseball America that mentions his improved bat speed, defense, and athleticism (contrary to several opinions voiced around here - by people who haven't actually SEEN him play BTW)...

"He's become a better overall hitter and is quicker to the ball than when he first entered pro ball. While he'll always rack up strikeouts, he did lower his K rate and improve his walk rate in 2017 while moving up the ladder."

"Riley also made huge strides in his defense at third and there are no longer concerns about his ability to stay at the hot corner, where his plus arm has always played well."

"He runs better than people might think at first glance, and some feel his athleticism would allow him to move to left field if there was a need or someone blocking him in Atlanta."


That's all directly from the blurb about him from MLB Pipeline's Top 10 3B prospects - apparently Law is seeing a different player. He was also given the same FV-55 grade as Andujar for what that's worth.

[BeanieAntics]

A couple of snippets not mentioned by the Riley haters - it's not JUST Baseball America that mentions his improved bat speed, defense, and athleticism (contrary to several opinions voiced around here - by people who haven't actually SEEN him play BTW)...

"He's become a better overall hitter and is quicker to the ball than when he first entered pro ball. While he'll always rack up strikeouts, he did lower his K rate and improve his walk rate in 2017 while moving up the ladder."

"Riley also made huge strides in his defense at third and there are no longer concerns about his ability to stay at the hot corner, where his plus arm has always played well."

"He runs better than people might think at first glance, and some feel his athleticism would allow him to move to left field if there was a need or someone blocking him in Atlanta."


That's all directly from the blurb about him from MLB Pipeline's Top 10 3B prospects - apparently Law is seeing a different player. He was also given the same FV-55 grade as Andujar for what that's worth.

Pipeline gives out wayyyyy too many 55 grades in my opinion, but that doesn't mean Riley isn't one. Between the Riley haters and Riley lovers, I fall somewhere in between. I think he has a chance to be a very solid power hitting 3rd baseman with below average to average defense. I just don't think he is the star that some on here want him to be. I think he is more along the lines of a .250 hitter that could drop 25 homers a year. Maybe there is a little wiggle room for a bit more power. I still have real concerns about how his bat path will play at the higher levels and I have real concerns about his consistency. This year I want to see him consistently be productive and get this streaky-ness out of his system. The whole left field thing is interesting. I've only seen Riley twice but both times he did look like he was athletic enough to play LF fairly well and he certainly has the arm for it. It wouldn't surprise me if he eventually makes the move there.

[thewupk]

Pipeline gives out wayyyyy too many 55 grades in my opinion, but that doesn't mean Riley isn't one. Between the Riley haters and Riley lovers, I fall somewhere in between. I think he has a chance to be a very solid power hitting 3rd baseman with below average to average defense. I just don't think he is the star that some on here want him to be. I think he is more along the lines of a .250 hitter that could drop 25 homers a year. Maybe there is a little wiggle room for a bit more power. I still have real concerns about how his bat path will play at the higher levels and I have real concerns about his consistency. This year I want to see him consistently be productive and get this streaky-ness out of his system. The whole left field thing is interesting. I've only seen Riley twice but both times he did look like he was athletic enough to play LF fairly well and he certainly has the arm for it. It wouldn't surprise me if he eventually makes the move there.

I think Riley is a high end 50FV guy that would put him in the back end of my top 100 list. That's a remarkable upgrade from a year ago. I still think he's a little hyped up for how he ended the year last year. We'll see how he does this season.

[Enscheff]

Pipeline gives out wayyyyy too many 55 grades in my opinion, but that doesn't mean Riley isn't one. Between the Riley haters and Riley lovers, I fall somewhere in between. I think he has a chance to be a very solid power hitting 3rd baseman with below average to average defense. I just don't think he is the star that some on here want him to be. I think he is more along the lines of a .250 hitter that could drop 25 homers a year. Maybe there is a little wiggle room for a bit more power. I still have real concerns about how his bat path will play at the higher levels and I have real concerns about his consistency. This year I want to see him consistently be productive and get this streaky-ness out of his system. The whole left field thing is interesting. I've only seen Riley twice but both times he did look like he was athletic enough to play LF fairly well and he certainly has the arm for it. It wouldn't surprise me if he eventually makes the move there.

Riley is not a FV 55. Pipeline tabbed something like 65 players with FV 50+ in last year's draft class. Longenhagen gave out 8 to the same draft class.

He is a 45 bordering on 50. He is a good prospect. He is likely a RHed Jake Lamb with a half grade less power. Saying he isn't someone to plan around is not being a hater.

Clvderpclv didn't post anything we haven't already seen from other sources.

[clvclv]

Pipeline gives out wayyyyy too many 55 grades in my opinion, but that doesn't mean Riley isn't one. Between the Riley haters and Riley lovers, I fall somewhere in between. I think he has a chance to be a very solid power hitting 3rd baseman with below average to average defense. I just don't think he is the star that some on here want him to be. I think he is more along the lines of a .250 hitter that could drop 25 homers a year. Maybe there is a little wiggle room for a bit more power. I still have real concerns about how his bat path will play at the higher levels and I have real concerns about his consistency. This year I want to see him consistently be productive and get this streaky-ness out of his system. The whole left field thing is interesting. I've only seen Riley twice but both times he did look like he was athletic enough to play LF fairly well and he certainly has the arm for it. It wouldn't surprise me if he eventually makes the move there.

Haven't really broken it down that closely, but I wouldn't dispute that for sure.

The only point is that they view him favorably compared to Andujar, so whatever that correct grade might be there are either a lot of people overrating Andujar or underrating Riley.

[Enscheff]

Kiley is doing the Braves list over at FG, so expect it to be super pozzy. How pozzy? I think this comment sheds some light:

Alex
12:04 Hi Kiley, what are your thoughts on Cristian Pache's ultimate offensive ceiling? Thanks!
Kiley McDaniel
12:06 He's an interesting one. I've joked that he's an LSU wide receiver athletically, so almost anything is possible in the long-term. More practically he needs to refine the approach and lift the ball a little more, but he's also a 70 runner and if doesn't improve at all he's something like Kevin Pillar, which may not be what Braves fans want but that's an everyday guy.

Kiley just said Pache's floor is Kevin Pillar, who posted 9.5 fWAR over his first 3 full MLB season, and is projected to produce 2-3 fWAR this year. "Everyday guy" is a bit of an understatement, no?

Sorry, but that is an absurd floor to give a player in low-A ball unless you are so drunk on the Braves kool-aid that you're puking all over the team van.

[Russ2dollas]

Pipeline gives out wayyyyy too many 55 grades in my opinion, but that doesn't mean Riley isn't one. Between the Riley haters and Riley lovers, I fall somewhere in between. I think he has a chance to be a very solid power hitting 3rd baseman with below average to average defense. I just don't think he is the star that some on here want him to be. I think he is more along the lines of a .250 hitter that could drop 25 homers a year. Maybe there is a little wiggle room for a bit more power. I still have real concerns about how his bat path will play at the higher levels and I have real concerns about his consistency. This year I want to see him consistently be productive and get this streaky-ness out of his system. The whole left field thing is interesting. I've only seen Riley twice but both times he did look like he was athletic enough to play LF fairly well and he certainly has the arm for it. It wouldn't surprise me if he eventually makes the move there.

I think I'm in the neighborhood you are.

I like that most ppl say the defense is much better. Some say it's good. He's still very young and can continue to refine the body. I think an avg defender or slightly less is reasonable.

Chipper was the famed 300/400/500 guy. That's why he's a HOF player. I think Riley will be a 230/330/450. I think that is a solid player but not someone I'm worried about blocking.

I also think Braves fans have crazy ideas about timelines given Coppy's decisions and guys like Albies and Acuna. Most guys aren't in MLB at 20. Even if Riley is going to be an 800+ OPS 3B with avg defense (that's absolute ceiling right?) it still makes sense that he has 2 more years in the minors to get there.

Get 2 years of Frazier with an option year.

[UNCBlue012]

Kiley is doing the Braves list over at FG, so expect it to be super pozzy. How pozzy? I think this comment sheds some light:

Alex
12:04 Hi Kiley, what are your thoughts on Cristian Pache's ultimate offensive ceiling? Thanks!
Kiley McDaniel
12:06 He's an interesting one. I've joked that he's an LSU wide receiver athletically, so almost anything is possible in the long-term. More practically he needs to refine the approach and lift the ball a little more, but he's also a 70 runner and if doesn't improve at all he's something like Kevin Pillar, which may not be what Braves fans want but that's an everyday guy.

Kiley just said Pache's floor is Kevin Pillar, who posted 9.5 fWAR over his first 3 full MLB season, and is projected to produce 2-3 fWAR this year. "Everyday guy" is a bit of an understatement, no?

Sorry, but that is an absurd floor to give a player in low-A ball unless you are so drunk on the Braves kool-aid that you're puking all over the team van.

Or, Kiley could be right and have his reasons for giving the grade. Just sayin'

[Enscheff]

Or, Kiley could be right and have his reasons for giving the grade. Just sayin'

You think it's reasonable to project the floor of a player in Low-A ball to be Kevin Pillar? A guy who has averaged over 3 fWAR per year?

Isn't that a Top 10 prospect?

[UNCBlue012]

You think it's reasonable to project the floor of a player in Low-A ball to be Kevin Pillar? A guy who has averaged over 3 fWAR per year?

Isn't that a Top 10 prospect?

I'm saying Kiley McDaniel sure as hell is more qualified to make that assumption than (probably) anyone on here is.

[thewupk]

I'm saying Kiley McDaniel sure as hell is more qualified to make that assumption than (probably) anyone on here is.

He's probably more biased as well.

[Russ2dollas]

You think it's reasonable to project the floor of a player in Low-A ball to be Kevin Pillar? A guy who has averaged over 3 fWAR per year?

Isn't that a Top 10 prospect?

I don't think it's reasonable for a floor.

He could be more nuanced in that term. It seems like everyone thinks he could be a top level CF now. With the weight of defense in WAR he could do that. Pillar is not a good hitter but he's not bad. The reason Pache's floor is way lower than Pillar is that there is a chance Pache can't hit at all.

Based on what I've read I think Pillar is a likely outcome for Pache, not a floor. Inciarte also a decent comp.

Pache seems to have a decent hit tool, walks some and can run the bases. Will he ever get the power ppl are projecting?

[thewupk]

I don't think it's reasonable for a floor.

He could be more nuanced in that term. It seems like everyone thinks he could be a top level CF now. With the weight of defense in WAR he could do that. Pillar is not a good hitter but he's not bad. The reason Pache's floor is way lower than Pillar is that there is a chance Pache can't hit at all.

Based on what I've read I think Pillar is a likely outcome for Pache, not a floor. Inciarte also a decent comp.

Pache seems to have a decent hit tool, walks some and can run the bases. Will he ever get the power ppl are projecting?

Plus defense in center will take you a long way in the WAR game

[Enscheff]

I don't think it's reasonable for a floor.

He could be more nuanced in that term. It seems like everyone thinks he could be a top level CF now. With the weight of defense in WAR he could do that. Pillar is not a good hitter but he's not bad. The reason Pache's floor is way lower than Pillar is that there is a chance Pache can't hit at all.

Based on what I've read I think Pillar is a likely outcome for Pache, not a floor. Inciarte also a decent comp.

Pache seems to have a decent hit tool, walks some and can run the bases. Will he ever get the power ppl are projecting?

You seem to have a better grip on Pache than Kiley.

[clvclv]

He's probably more biased as well.

More biased than some people are against him???

The blackjack dealer's rhetoric has made things so ridiculous around here it's miserable. You can't say anything flattering about someone - Braves' player/prospect or not - without being labeled an "idiot", "pozzy", or whatever term some of you choose to call those who don't share your opinion. The last time I checked, this was a place for Braves fans to discuss their favorite team - not toss insults at those they don't like.

Does it seriously affect some of your lives so adversely that thethe (and others including myself) is an over-the-top "glass at the very least half-full" fan when he's as Braves nuts as he is? Then maybe some of you need to reconsider who really has a problem - he's a Braves fan. If you're not, what in the *ell are you wasting your time here for???

[clvclv]

Plus defense in center will take you a long way in the WAR game

Apparently not to the HOF though.

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

Apparently not to the HOF though.

Best defense in CF history won’t take you to the HOF

[smootness]

The rest of the grades are locked behind a paywall, but here are Acuna's grades according to BA:

Hit: 60 - Power: 70 - Speed: 70 - Glove: 70 - Arm: 60

I think those are a half grade too high, except for maybe his arm and hit tool. I think I would have him at a 60/65/65/65/60. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I'm just really reluctant to grade out three tools as being a 70 grade.

Are these current grades or future grades?

[smootness]

You think it's reasonable to project the floor of a player in Low-A ball to be Kevin Pillar? A guy who has averaged over 3 fWAR per year?

Isn't that a Top 10 prospect?

He's obviously not going to say that any Braves prospect's floor is a guy who never contributes anything. These guys will read this stuff.

My guess is that he means that a reasonable low-end projection for him, given his current abilities, is Kevin Pillar. I don't think there's ever been any prospect in baseball history in A-ball who didn't have an absolute floor of 'never contributes anything at the major league level.' Obviously Kiley knows that.

What Pache does have is apparently incredible athleticism and defense. Sure, it's possible he doesn't get to Pillar's level. But Pillar was a major league player who made it almost entirely on defense and athleticism. So even if Pache doesn't add anything else to his game, he can get to a level like that. I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying.

[Enscheff]

He's obviously not going to say that any Braves prospect's floor is a guy who never contributes anything. These guys will read this stuff.

My guess is that he means that a reasonable low-end projection for him, given his current abilities, is Kevin Pillar. I don't think there's ever been any prospect in baseball history in A-ball who didn't have an absolute floor of 'never contributes anything at the major league level.' Obviously Kiley knows that.

What Pache does have is apparently incredible athleticism and defense. Sure, it's possible he doesn't get to Pillar's level. But Pillar was a major league player who made it almost entirely on defense and athleticism. So even if Pache doesn't add anything else to his game, he can get to a level like that. I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying.

I suppose I misread, “if doesn't improve at all he's something like Kevin Pillar”, to mean something other than describing his low end projection.

[thewupk]

Apparently not to the HOF though.

sad but true

[Managuarantano's Volunteers]

I suppose I misread, “if doesn't improve at all he's something like Kevin Pillar”, to mean something other than describing his low end projection.
I agree it was poorly written but I also doubt he meant it as you were describing (absolute floor of 3 WAR)

[Russ2dollas]

He's obviously not going to say that any Braves prospect's floor is a guy who never contributes anything. These guys will read this stuff.

My guess is that he means that a reasonable low-end projection for him, given his current abilities, is Kevin Pillar. I don't think there's ever been any prospect in baseball history in A-ball who didn't have an absolute floor of 'never contributes anything at the major league level.' Obviously Kiley knows that.

What Pache does have is apparently incredible athleticism and defense. Sure, it's possible he doesn't get to Pillar's level. But Pillar was a major league player who made it almost entirely on defense and athleticism. So even if Pache doesn't add anything else to his game, he can get to a level like that. I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying.

I think I agree with you but words matter. They especially matter when you write and/or communicate for a living.

Floor should mean floor. He could easily say a low end comp is Pillar. If he never hits he is probably Billy Hamilton.

We all get that floor doesn't totally mean floor. IF you look at prospect outcomes the easiest way to be correct the highest percentage of the time is to say the guy is going to be a 0-1 total WAR guy for his career. Most guys don't make it. But floor doesn't mean you hit better in MLB than you hit in A ball either.

[mqt]

I think I agree with you but words matter. They especially matter when you write and/or communicate for a living.

Floor should mean floor. He could easily say a low end comp is Pillar. If he never hits he is probably Billy Hamilton.

We all get that floor doesn't totally mean floor. IF you look at prospect outcomes the easiest way to be correct the highest percentage of the time is to say the guy is going to be a 0-1 total WAR guy for his career. Most guys don't make it. But floor doesn't mean you hit better in MLB than you hit in A ball either.

It was a chat, though. I think intent is more important than wording in a chat.

[Southcack77]

Kiley didn’t actually use the word floor.

Pillar has been one of the very worst qualifying outfield hitters by wRC+ in each of the last three years.

Kiley may be saying he sees pache’s hit tool as good enough to perform at that level right now.

Obviously he might not be good enough to make the majors or have qualifying at bats, but kiley may be saying he doesn’t see that happening based on his tools right now.

[Southcack77]

Pillar is actually rated #205 out of #232 qualifying players in wRC+ between 2015-2017.

[Super]

Kiley didn’t actually use the word floor.

Pillar has been one of the very worst qualifying outfield hitters by wRC+ in each of the last three years.

Kiley may be saying he sees pache’s hit tool as good enough to perform at that level right now.

Obviously he might not be good enough to make the majors or have qualifying at bats, but kiley may be saying he doesn’t see that happening based on his tools right now.

but if i can't nitpick and criticize to the max then what has this all been about?

[thewupk]

Pillar is actually rated #205 out of #232 qualifying players in wRC+ between 2015-2017.

I think Pache's likely outcome is a lesser version of Ender. Same defense but a 90 WRC+ hitter. Hopefully he hits because if that develops we would be looking at a very good player with his defense and speed.

[Russ2dollas]

I think Pache's likely outcome is a lesser version of Ender. Same defense but a 90 WRC+ hitter. Hopefully he hits because if that develops we would be looking at a very good player with his defense and speed.

We will see. I am not going to look up the numbers but I think Pache has a better track record at this point than Ender. I think he might be a better defender too. But I'd still deal him if we could get Yellich.

Allard didn't even make Klaw's list for just missed the top 100. What am I missing? I haven't seen anyone say he's a number 1. But there are a lot of future mid rotation guys in the Klaw top 100. He's way low on Allard and Riley compared to others and way high on Wentz, Anderson and Pache compared to others.

[clvclv]

I think Pache's likely outcome is a lesser version of Ender. Same defense but a 90 WRC+ hitter. Hopefully he hits because if that develops we would be looking at a very good player with his defense and speed.

And a perfect replacement for Ender in a couple years.

[clvclv]

We will see. I am not going to look up the numbers but I think Pache has a better track record at this point than Ender. I think he might be a better defender too. But I'd still deal him if we could get Yellich.

Allard didn't even make Klaw's list for just missed the top 100. What am I missing? I haven't seen anyone say he's a number 1. But there are a lot of future mid rotation guys in the Klaw top 100. He's way low on Allard and Riley compared to others and way high on Wentz, Anderson and Pache compared to others.

It's not just Law, but all those guys seem to have "favorites" as well as guys they're just not sold on for varying reasons. Riley's always been one of those as far as Law's concerned - but there are others that have bones to pick with a couple guys that the other "experts" are high on as well. Law has just always been one of the last to be willing to change his mind once he's voiced an opinion on a prospect IMO - they really have to explode before he acknowledges improvement usually rather than show incremental improvement as Riley has.

[thewupk]

And a perfect replacement for Ender in a couple years.

I agree. Someone like that would be a good replacement for Ender. Even if he doesn't hit a lot he could still be a 2 WAR player due to his defense and base running. Hit him 8th and use him while he's cheap and move on. If the hitting does develop you could have a prime Michael Bourn on your hands.

[thethe]

I think you guys are under seeing pache offensive potential. I think he will hit better than ender

[thewupk]

I think you guys are under seeing pache offensive potential. I think he will hit better than ender

We know you think every prospect will be an all-star but that's not always the case. Pache's ceiling is hitting better than Ender and being a Bourn type player in his prime. His most likely outcome is hitting less than Ender and being a good role player while he's cheap.

[thethe]

We know you think every prospect will be an all-star but that's not always the case. Pache's ceiling is hitting better than Ender and being a Bourn type player in his prime. His most likely outcome is hitting less than Ender and being a good role player while he's cheap.

I think this way because he performed well at an exceptionally young age. I don't think he will be a good hitter but one that produces more than ender.

[thewupk]

I think this way because he performed well at an exceptionally young age. I don't think he will be a good hitter but one that produces more than ender.

So you think Pache will be an all-star then?

[thethe]

So you think Pache will be an all-star then?

All star is dependent on comparative performance so it's impossible to say. I do think he will beat out Ender by a few points in wRC+.

[Enscheff]

We will see. I am not going to look up the numbers but I think Pache has a better track record at this point than Ender. I think he might be a better defender too. But I'd still deal him if we could get Yellich.

Allard didn't even make Klaw's list for just missed the top 100. What am I missing? I haven't seen anyone say he's a number 1. But there are a lot of future mid rotation guys in the Klaw top 100. He's way low on Allard and Riley compared to others and way high on Wentz, Anderson and Pache compared to others.

Law's lists are bad because they aren't consistent, as you have just pointed out.

He seems to project ultimate upside based on his own eye test, and then fails to properly account for proximity to the MLB level. As icing on the Terrible List Cake, he is unwilling to assimilate new information (like Riley's improved defense) into his rankings.

[Super]

Pache could definitely end up a better hitter than Inciarte, but it's far from a sure, or even a probable, thing. I think if people thought Ender could hit the way he has, he wouldn't have been a Rule 5 guy. Now, just because people missed on him doesn't mean Pache can't hit better than that. But Ender's not-terrible offense has probably been a surprise to some teams.

[thethe]

Pache could definitely end up a better hitter than Inciarte, but it's far from a sure, or even a probable, thing. I think if people thought Ender could hit the way he has, he wouldn't have been a Rule 5 guy. Now, just because people missed on him doesn't mean Pache can't hit better than that. But Ender's not-terrible offense has probably been a surprise to some teams.

Contact and exit velocity are key IMO.

[Deester11]

We know you think every prospect will be an all-star but that's not always the case. Pache's ceiling is hitting better than Ender and being a Bourn type player in his prime. His most likely outcome is hitting less than Ender and being a good role player while he's cheap.
Well, I'll offer an opinion just as others do, but I would be surprised if Pache doesn't become more than a role player. Somewhere along the way which is probably a philosophy in the many organizations, the hitting emphasis for Pache has been to hit line drives and get on base, utilize his speed and learn the nuisances of hitting at his advantage in the count. That has served him well at this point and at his age.

Watching him is better than stat scouting because you hear and see the instruction he has been given. NOW, I will say that he had very little drive (13 doubles and 8 triples in 460+ abs) the many times I saw him and he was content with line drives. That is at least better than the let it rip philosophy but I expect more gap power going forward. The most HR'S Ender hit on the minors was 2 until the year before his debut when he got 6 I think.

So if the hitting plane changes just slightly to give him lift you measure his defense. I'm not admittedly a great metrics guy but if Pache approaches what Ender did defensively, one or the other becomes a great trade chip. I am high on Pache's defense as he would give you a gem almost every other game. There hasn't been a scout or analyst not rave about his defense right now as is.

Ok. Long story short, I don't see him as a bit player. I think if I'm the Marlins, he's a must in a deal for Yelich if we aren't including Acuña. He may never hit for double digit power but I suspect he will get close as he gets stronger.

[thewupk]

All star is dependent on comparative performance so it's impossible to say. I do think he will beat out Ender by a few points in wRC+.

Actually getting voted into the game is dependent on other factors but the term all-star generally refers to 4+ WAR guys.

[Enscheff]

Contact and exit velocity are key IMO.

LOL very astute.

Being able to hit the ball consistently and being able to hit it hard are certainly the most important aspects of hitting LOL.

[thewupk]

Well, I'll offer an opinion just as others do, but I would be surprised if Pache doesn't become more than a role player. Somewhere along the way which is probably a philosophy in the many organizations, the hitting emphasis for Pache has been to hit line drives and get on base, utilize his speed and learn the nuisances of hitting at his advantage in the count. That has served him well at this point and at his age.

Watching him is better than stat scouting because you hear and see the instruction he has been given. NOW, I will say that he had very little drive (13 doubles and 8 triples in 460+ abs) the many times I saw him and he was content with line drives. That is at least better than the let it rip philosophy but I expect more gap power going forward. The most HR'S Ender hit on the minors was 2 until the year before his debut when he got 6 I think.

So if the hitting plane changes just slightly to give him lift you measure his defense. I'm not admittedly a great metrics guy but if Pache approaches what Ender did defensively, one or the other becomes a great trade chip. I am high on Pache's defense as he would give you a gem almost every other game. There hasn't been a scout or analyst not rave about his defense right now as is.

Ok. Long story short, I don't see him as a bit player. I think if I'm the Marlins, he's a must in a deal for Yelich if we aren't including Acuña. He may never hit for double digit power but I suspect he will get close as he gets stronger.

Yeah. The long and short for Pache is that if he hits he's going to be really good. How likely is that? I have no idea.

[clvclv]

I think you guys are under seeing pache offensive potential. I think he will hit better than ender

You understand how big that word is, right???

Acuna has HOF "potential" - I'm relatively sure that if he turns into 80% of what Andruw was, everyone else will be beyond thrilled for years (and apparently Andruw isn't close to being a HOFer in the voters' eyes).

Potential is a bigger word than supercalifragilisticexpialidocius.

[Enscheff]

Yeah. The long and short for Pache is that if he hits he's going to be really good. How likely is that? I have no idea.

Just ask Kiley.

Pache will be Pillar, at the very least. That's an 85-90 wRC+ bat with premium CF defense.

We have nothing to worry about. He's at least a 3 win player...no worries! The future is bright!

[thethe]

Pace has a much better frame than ender. He should project to more power.

[thewupk]

You understand how big that word is, right???

Acuna has HOF "potential" - I'm relatively sure that if he turns into 80% of what Andruw was, everyone else will be beyond thrilled for years (and apparently Andruw isn't close to being a HOFer in the voters' eyes).

Potential is a bigger word than supercalifragilisticexpialidocius.

How easily you forget. Andruw got dogged by the fanbase for not being Willie Mays. Even Chipper got it in his early to mid 30's when he first started to break down and people thought he we was overpaid. Luckily he found another level towards the end. And let's not even bring up Heyward and peoples expectations for him. Braves fans have a problem with #1 overall prospects and their perception of what they should be compared to what they are actually doing for the team.

[thewupk]

Just ask Kiley.

Pache will be Pillar, at the very least. That's an 85-90 wRC+ bat with premium CF defense.

We have nothing to worry about. He's at least a 3 win player...no worries! The future is bright!

Yeah. I think Pillar is a good comp for Pache but not his floor.

[BeanieAntics]

How easily you forget. Andruw got dogged by the fanbase for not being Willie Mays. Even Chipper got it in his early to mid 30's when he first started to break down and people thought he we was overpaid. Luckily he found another level towards the end. And let's not even bring up Heyward and peoples expectations for him. Braves fans have a problem with #1 overall prospects and their perception of what they should be compared to what they are actually doing for the team.

I honestly believe that some people will be calling Acuna a disappointment even if he is a consistent 5 win player. Its crazy to think that our fanbase would be disappointed with 30 WAR over his first 6 seasons, but I bet they would be. If he doesn't hit some approximation of Mike Trout, many fans will call him a disappointment

[thewupk]

I honestly believe that some people will be calling Acuna a disappointment even if he is a consistent 5 win player. Its crazy to think that our fanbase would be disappointed with 30 WAR over his first 6 seasons, but I bet they would be. If he doesn't hit some approximation of Mike Trout, many fans will call him a disappointment

Trout might be overboard. But if Acuna doesn't hit like Freeman and have plus defense there will be a certain section of the fanbase calling him a disappointment and overhyped.

[Super]

Braves fans have a problem with #1 overall prospects and their perception of what they should be compared to what they are actually doing for the team.

yes we are inherently different than other fan bases. for sure.

[thewupk]

yes we are inherently different than other fan bases. for sure.

I'm curious if the Nats fans think Harper has been a disappointment or not besides that 1 season? Someone should ask gilesfan.

[Super]

I'm curious if the Nats fans think Harper has been a disappointment or not besides that 1 season? Someone should ask gilesfan.

there prob are some. but he's also just 25 and has a 9.5 WAR season under his belt. But i'm sure some are disappointed that he hasn't been Trout.

[bravesfanMatt]

Pache floor is dishwasher and his ceiling is mighty Casey. That should satisfy everyone.

[BeanieAntics]

Pache floor is dishwasher and his ceiling is mighty Casey. That should satisfy everyone.

The guy from the poem or that guy who used to be on BET uncut with that song "White Girls"?? I'm kinda hoping it is the latter.

[Enscheff]

I honestly believe that some people will be calling Acuna a disappointment even if he is a consistent 5 win player. Its crazy to think that our fanbase would be disappointed with 30 WAR over his first 6 seasons, but I bet they would be. If he doesn't hit some approximation of Mike Trout, many fans will call him a disappointment

When Acuna comes up and struggles with MLB sequencing (meaning swinging at breaking balls away) while posting an OPS that might not crack the .800s...there will be complaints.

It is absolutely imperative the Braves give up a few weeks/months of .750 OPS Acuna in 2018 for a full year of .900 OPS Acuna in 2024.

[Julio3000]

How easily you forget. Andruw got dogged by the fanbase for not being Willie Mays. Even Chipper got it in his early to mid 30's when he first started to break down and people thought he we was overpaid. Luckily he found another level towards the end. And let's not even bring up Heyward and peoples expectations for him. Braves fans have a problem with #1 overall prospects and their perception of what they should be compared to what they are actually doing for the team.

Gawd this is so true.

[jimsnores]

When Acuna comes up and struggles with MLB sequencing (meaning swinging at breaking balls away) while posting an OPS that might not crack the .800s...there will be complaints.

It is absolutely imperative the Braves give up a few weeks/months of .750 OPS Acuna in 2018 for a full year of .900 OPS Acuna in 2024.

It sure seems like that's the direction they are going, based on all you read. Or more specifically, "there is reason to believe" that this is the track AA is planning to take. Some casual fans may not understand the wisdom, but that shouldn't be much of a problem, especially given how little time you really have to leave someone down to gain that year (like the Cubbies did with Bryant).

[ball4life32]

We will see. I am not going to look up the numbers but I think Pache has a better track record at this point than Ender. I think he might be a better defender too. But I'd still deal him if we could get Yellich.

Allard didn't even make Klaw's list for just missed the top 100. What am I missing? I haven't seen anyone say he's a number 1. But there are a lot of future mid rotation guys in the Klaw top 100. He's way low on Allard and Riley compared to others and way high on Wentz, Anderson and Pache compared to others.

Q Ball: Kolby Allard fell out of the top 100 but I was actually very fond of his 2017. He showed 150 innings of health pitching in the same league all year where batters saw him over and over again. And he was only 19 for the majority of the season. What am I missing?

Keith Law: You didn’t see him, I guess. He was working with a 45 fastball much of the year, and he always had durability questions because he’s on the smaller side. He’s a very different guy at 90-93 and touching a little more than at 87-88.

[Enscheff]

Q Ball: Kolby Allard fell out of the top 100 but I was actually very fond of his 2017. He showed 150 innings of health pitching in the same league all year where batters saw him over and over again. And he was only 19 for the majority of the season. What am I missing?

Keith Law: You didn’t see him, I guess. He was working with a 45 fastball much of the year, and he always had durability questions because he’s on the smaller side. He’s a very different guy at 90-93 and touching a little more than at 87-88.

I've seen stuff like this about Allard, suggesting he is getting out inexperienced hitters with superior sequencing more than anything else.

It's why I have him ranked below Gohara, Wright, and Soroka. He seems to profile as a pitchability LHer that sits at the back of the rotation.

[Russ2dollas]

Q Ball: Kolby Allard fell out of the top 100 but I was actually very fond of his 2017. He showed 150 innings of health pitching in the same league all year where batters saw him over and over again. And he was only 19 for the majority of the season. What am I missing?

Keith Law: You didn’t see him, I guess. He was working with a 45 fastball much of the year, and he always had durability questions because he’s on the smaller side. He’s a very different guy at 90-93 and touching a little more than at 87-88.

I get why you drop him. But out of the top 100?

He's still getting guys out in AA at 19-20. Isn't that profile exactly what Wentz is doing but Wentz is doing it at a lower level? I think the is more data on Allard throwing hard than Wentz.

[Carp]

I've seen stuff like this about Allard, suggesting he is getting out inexperienced hitters with superior sequencing more than anything else.

It's why I have him ranked below Gohara, Wright, and Soroka. He seems to profile as a pitchability LHer that sits at the back of the rotation.

According to Allard, he was specifically working on his change all year. And reports are that his fastball looked better in the 2nd half of the year, coinciding with improved peripherals which would back that up. The same thing happened to Julio. He spent much of his AAA season working on his change and his stats suffered and sports writers started claiming a drop in velocity. We know now that the reports of his working on his change were true, as he pitched terrific the following year.

[Southcack77]

According to Allard, he was specifically working on his change all year. And reports are that his fastball looked better in the 2nd half of the year, coinciding with improved peripherals which would back that up. The same thing happened to Julio. He spent much of his AAA season working on his change and his stats suffered and sports writers started claiming a drop in velocity. We know now that the reports of his working on his change were true, as he pitched terrific the following year.

I do remember that there was discussion that he was working on things and then right about that time he started ballin'.

[Super]

you would think law understands development. i think allard is fine.

[Russ2dollas]

Klaw still has us the number 1 system.

Allard is also 20. I know he doesn't have a big frame and muscled development isn't a huge thing for velocity. But it's likely that he is going to mature some and probably be able to sustain velocity more at the very least.

I appreciate that Klaw does his own thing. It's not a carbon copy of everyone else. He also tells you why. You can say he's an idiot but at least you get an opinion and some stuff behind that. For me it's ok to be down on some and higher on others. We have a lot of guys that have a chance.

It will be a big year in the system. New GM. A lot of guys that are close to the majors getting chances in AA or higher. We'll know a lot more about some of the big names this time next year.

[thewupk]

The thing about prospect lists is that players ranked ~75 to ~130 are essentially the same. Very little difference there. So whether Allard is ranked in the back end of the top 100 or not in it at all doesn't really matter. It's clear he's dropped to a 50 FV guy right now.

[Super]

BA loses me on crawford at 16.

[Tapate50]

Allard likely wore out with a full year. Durability most likely his biggest flaw as of now. Good news is that it can be improved a whole lot.

Personally if you are gonna ding a guy for something, I like something easily fixable.

[BeanieAntics]

Klaw still has us the number 1 system.

Allard is also 20. I know he doesn't have a big frame and muscled development isn't a huge thing for velocity. But it's likely that he is going to mature some and probably be able to sustain velocity more at the very least.

I appreciate that Klaw does his own thing. It's not a carbon copy of everyone else. He also tells you why. You can say he's an idiot but at least you get an opinion and some stuff behind that. For me it's ok to be down on some and higher on others. We have a lot of guys that have a chance.

It will be a big year in the system. New GM. A lot of guys that are close to the majors getting chances in AA or higher. We'll know a lot more about some of the big names this time next year.

I can appreciate Law's prospect work and all that good stuff, but geez his political snobbery on twitter is insufferable. I'm not a "stick to sports" person, but having an opinion on something and labeling all dissent as ignorance/stupidity really irks me sometimes.

[striker42]

Q Ball: Kolby Allard fell out of the top 100 but I was actually very fond of his 2017. He showed 150 innings of health pitching in the same league all year where batters saw him over and over again. And he was only 19 for the majority of the season. What am I missing?

Keith Law: You didn’t see him, I guess. He was working with a 45 fastball much of the year, and he always had durability questions because he’s on the smaller side. He’s a very different guy at 90-93 and touching a little more than at 87-88.

I don't have a huge problem with Allard falling off the list. He needs to put together a year where he's healthy and shows a consistently good fastball. I think as he gets further away from his injury issues and builds strength that we could very well see him establish that fastball consistently in the low 90s. When that happens he'll explode. He's got the secondary stuff, the command, and doesn't give up many HRs.

[thethe]

Is it possible that the braves had him working on a 2 seamed most of the year? Is their any pitch breakdown data for the minor leagues?

[Russ2dollas]

Is it possible that the braves had him working on a 2 seamed most of the year? Is their any pitch breakdown data for the minor leagues?

I did a quick google search and it seems like most ppl are reporting FB velocity of 88-92 with movement. Mostly complimentary of it. Earlier reports talk about up to 95 when he was pitching less innings.

I get that FB is critical to a starting pitcher. That said this is still a guy who was 5 years below the avg age last year. 129 K in 150 innings. Only 50 walks. Not a shut down guy but not giving up a ton of hits or hrs. To have that not be top guy is surprising.

[thethe]

I did a quick google search and it seems like most ppl are reporting FB velocity of 88-92 with movement. Mostly complimentary of it. Earlier reports talk about up to 95 when he was pitching less innings.

I get that FB is critical to a starting pitcher. That said this is still a guy who was 5 years below the avg age last year. 129 K in 150 innings. Only 50 walks. Not a shut down guy but not giving up a ton of hits or hrs. To have that not be top guy is surprising.

I'm guessing they wanted him to work on movement and reserving energy by reducing his effort so he gets use to a full season load of innings. There is no way a way throws mid 90s down to high 80s without a report of arm issues. My guess is that it was intentional strategy by the organization.

[bravesfanMatt]

All speculation. Did Allard throw 92 for first 3 inning then drop. Did he range from 92 to 88 all game. What was avalerage per game. Many things need to be answered. So I say let him pitch and if he is 88 soft thrower he will get exposed as the talent he faces become better.

[Russ2dollas]

I'm guessing they wanted him to work on movement and reserving energy by reducing his effort so he gets use to a full season load of innings. There is no way a way throws mid 90s down to high 80s without a report of arm issues. My guess is that it was intentional strategy by the organization.

maybe he does have arm issues. We will see.

Pitchability seems like a poor excuse when it's coming from a guy years below league avg. This is AA, not A ball. It's a 20 yo in AA, not a college senior in rookie ball.

I know we will all be watching velocity report from his starts from now on. Allard and Wentz velocity stalking.

[Enscheff]

He's obviously not going to say that any Braves prospect's floor is a guy who never contributes anything. These guys will read this stuff.

My guess is that he means that a reasonable low-end projection for him, given his current abilities, is Kevin Pillar. I don't think there's ever been any prospect in baseball history in A-ball who didn't have an absolute floor of 'never contributes anything at the major league level.' Obviously Kiley knows that.

What Pache does have is apparently incredible athleticism and defense. Sure, it's possible he doesn't get to Pillar's level. But Pillar was a major league player who made it almost entirely on defense and athleticism. So even if Pache doesn't add anything else to his game, he can get to a level like that. I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying.

Here is his latest blurb about Pache:

Tom: I am wondering if Cristian Pache‘s upside gets him on the Top 100 or if he still has to continue to prove he can hit before he makes that jump.
Kiley McDaniel: Let me ask you this, everyone still reading
Kiley McDaniel: And you can answer in the comment
Kiley McDaniel: If Kevin Pillar was a prospect and you KNEW he would be Kevin Pillar, whereas all the other prospects are the same unknowns, where would you rank no risk Kevin Pillar in a top 100?
Kiley McDaniel: And that’s the 6 controlled MLB years of Pillar, we don’t care about what he does when he’s 33 or whatever

I'm not sure how anyone can take these comments to mean anything other than "Pache's floor is Kevin Pillar".

For reference, Pillar has produced 9.5 fWAR over his 3 full MLB seasons, and is projected to produce 2.2-2.7 fWAR in 2018.

If that's the floor for Pache...that's a top 25 guy...which is silly.

[thewupk]

Here is his latest blurb about Pache:

Tom: I am wondering if Cristian Pache‘s upside gets him on the Top 100 or if he still has to continue to prove he can hit before he makes that jump.
Kiley McDaniel: Let me ask you this, everyone still reading
Kiley McDaniel: And you can answer in the comment
Kiley McDaniel: If Kevin Pillar was a prospect and you KNEW he would be Kevin Pillar, whereas all the other prospects are the same unknowns, where would you rank no risk Kevin Pillar in a top 100?
Kiley McDaniel: And that’s the 6 controlled MLB years of Pillar, we don’t care about what he does when he’s 33 or whatever

I'm not sure how anyone can take these comments to mean anything other than "Pache's floor is Kevin Pillar".

For reference, Pillar has produced 9.5 fWAR over his 3 full MLB seasons, and is projected to produce 2.2-2.7 fWAR in 2018.

If that's the floor for Pache...that's a top 25 guy...which is silly.

Yeah. Kiley must be on the Pache bandwagon. So I'm really curious now what Pache gets graded on Saturday when the top 100 list comes out. If Kiley 'knows' that Pache will be like Pillar, and as a result produce something like ~15 in pre FA years, then he's going to have a surplus value of ~100 million which equals a high end prospect. I just don't see that.

[Enscheff]

Yeah. Kiley must be on the Pache bandwagon. So I'm really curious now what Pache gets graded on Saturday when the top 100 list comes out. If Kiley 'knows' that Pache will be like Pillar, and as a result produce something like ~15 in pre FA years, then he's going to have a surplus value of ~100 million which equals a high end prospect. I just don't see that.

Pillar is certainly a plausible outcome for Pache. In fact, I think it's a pretty good comp, and may be very close to his most likely outcome.

My issue is this notion that Pillar is Pache's (non-injury) worst-case scenario.

[thewupk]

Pillar is certainly a plausible outcome for Pache. In fact, I think it's a pretty good comp, and may be very close to his most likely outcome.

My issue is this notion that Pillar is Pache's (non-injury) worst-case scenario.

I would agree. I don't think you can pencil in Pillar as Pache's floor. That's pretty absurd even if the defense is legit. There have been better skilled hitters who haven't come close to even what Pillar has done with the bat.

[Southcack77]

I would agree. I don't think you can pencil in Pillar as Pache's floor. That's pretty absurd even if the defense is legit. There have been better skilled hitters who haven't come close to even what Pillar has done with the bat.

Let's not get too excited. He's been one of the worst regulars in baseball according to wRC+.

Granted, being a regular is quite an accomplishment in itself. Many guys with great defensive profiles never manage it. Which is why saying Pache's "floor" is starting CF in the majors is not a very reasonable thing to say at this point. But perhaps its not that far fetched.

[Enscheff]

Let's not get too excited. He's been one of the worst regulars in baseball according to wRC+.

Granted, being a regular is quite an accomplishment in itself. Many guys with great defensive profiles never manage it. Which is why saying Pache's "floor" is starting CF in the majors is not a very reasonable thing to say at this point. But perhaps its not that far fetched.

Kevin Pillar is not a "starting CF in the majors". Kevin Pillar has posted 9.5 fWAR over his 3 full MLB seasons, and 10.2 overall...all at pre-arb salaries totaling about $1.6M.

If Pache posts 10+ fWAR before he hits arbitration, we should all be very pleased.

Setting that level of production as a prospect's floor is...silly.

[thewupk]

Let's not get too excited. He's been one of the worst regulars in baseball according to wRC+.

Granted, being a regular is quite an accomplishment in itself. Many guys with great defensive profiles never manage it. Which is why saying Pache's "floor" is starting CF in the majors is not a very reasonable thing to say at this point. But perhaps its not that far fetched.

Who's excited? I think Pache has a really good chance to replace Ender in a few years and still provide A+ defense. That on the cheap is very valuable. Can he hit enough to be able to make use of his defense? As you said many plus defenders never get a chance to show it because they can't hit a lick. Even as one of the worst 'hitters' in baseball he still hits enough to be a valuable player because of his defense much like Simmons does.

I think the point is penciling in that kind of hitting ability for Pache at this point is pretty silly. Better skilled hitters have completely busted at the plate in the majors. His defense does give him a leg up though in that he likely doesn't have to hit much to be an everyday player.

[Super]

Yeah, I'd say it's extremely possible Pache could put up like a ~60-70 wRC+ if his bat never really develops. Where would that put Pillar's WAR?

But as to the question, if you knew a player was guaranteed to be Pillar, where would you rank him? Enscheff said top-25, but I'd think that player might be top-10?

[Southcack77]

Kevin Pillar is not a "starting CF in the majors". Kevin Pillar has posted 9.5 fWAR over his 3 full MLB seasons, and 10.2 overall...all at pre-arb salaries totaling about $1.6M.

If Pache posts 10+ fWAR before he hits arbitration, we should all be very pleased.

Setting that level of production as a prospect's floor is...silly.

I agree.

But Pache's defensive floor might well be every bit as good as Pillar's which (along with base running) has tended to be the largest part of his WAR.

But like I said and others have implied/said/meant, even being one of the worst hitting regulars in MLB is a difficult thing to accomplish. It's presuming a lot to put that kind of floor on him.

[Enscheff]

Yeah, I'd say it's extremely possible Pache could put up like a ~60-70 wRC+ if his bat never really develops. Where would that put Pillar's WAR?

But as to the question, if you knew a player was guaranteed to be Pillar, where would you rank him? Enscheff said top-25, but I'd think that player might be top-10?

Top 10 might be more accurate than Top 25, honestly.

10 pre-arb wins as a floor means, what? 12 pre-arb wins is a "good" outcome? 15 pre-arb wins is his ceiling?

That's probably Top 10 for sure.

[Southcack77]

Who's excited? I think Pache has a really good chance to replace Ender in a few years and still provide A+ defense. That on the cheap is very valuable. Can he hit enough to be able to make use of his defense? As you said many plus defenders never get a chance to show it because they can't hit a lick. Even as one of the worst 'hitters' in baseball he still hits enough to be a valuable player because of his defense much like Simmons does.

I think the point is penciling in that kind of hitting ability for Pache at this point is pretty silly. Better skilled hitters have completely busted at the plate in the majors. His defense does give him a leg up though in that he likely doesn't have to hit much to be an everyday player.

we are on the same page.

[bravesfanMatt]

Pache will be called up in 2019 and we will trade Ender and just play Pache and Acuna in the OF and five infielders. That is how good he is.

[jpx7]

Pache will be called up in 2019 and we will trade Ender and just play Pache and Acuna in the OF and five infielders. That is how good he is.

Finally, a reasonable take.

[MadduxFanII]

I'm insulted by the insinuation that Acuna won't be able to handle all three outfield spots himself.

[bravesfanMatt]

I'm insulted by the insinuation that Acuna won't be able to handle all three outfield spots himself.

He can. But where are you putting 6 infielders. That is just dumb man.

[bravesfanMatt]

God I need baseball. This slow offseason is killing me

[striker42]

He can. But where are you putting 6 infielders. That is just dumb man.

At least two players will be needed to restrain Blooper when he goes on a rampage so it all evens out.

[weso1]

God I need baseball. This slow offseason is killing me

Feels like it's still forever away. We still have to get through the worst month of the year, imo, before we really start getting into baseball season.

[thethe]

Who's excited? I think Pache has a really good chance to replace Ender in a few years and still provide A+ defense. That on the cheap is very valuable. Can he hit enough to be able to make use of his defense? As you said many plus defenders never get a chance to show it because they can't hit a lick. Even as one of the worst 'hitters' in baseball he still hits enough to be a valuable player because of his defense much like Simmons does.

I think the point is penciling in that kind of hitting ability for Pache at this point is pretty silly. Better skilled hitters have completely busted at the plate in the majors. His defense does give him a leg up though in that he likely doesn't have to hit much to be an everyday player.

I believe that Pache has gotten to bad wrap as being a slap hitter. At 18 years old in Rome he hit 20% line drives. Obviously the power isn't showing up yet but its always the last tool to develop. He has a frame where you would expect power to progress. Again - at 18 he did not embarrass himself at Rome. Thats not a ringing endorsement obviously but I don't see all this evidence that he is projecting to be a bad hitter.

[Jaw]

Who's excited? I think Pache has a really good chance to replace Ender in a few years and still provide A+ defense. That on the cheap is very valuable. Can he hit enough to be able to make use of his defense? As you said many plus defenders never get a chance to show it because they can't hit a lick. Even as one of the worst 'hitters' in baseball he still hits enough to be a valuable player because of his defense much like Simmons does.

I think the point is penciling in that kind of hitting ability for Pache at this point is pretty silly. Better skilled hitters have completely busted at the plate in the majors. His defense does give him a leg up though in that he likely doesn't have to hit much to be an everyday player.

Am I the only one that read this and thought thethe posted it?

And yes, I'm excited. Lots of potentially high impact players are progressing nicely through the farm.

[Tapate50]

Am I the only one that read this and thought thethe posted it?

And yes, I'm excited. Lots of potentially high impact players are progressing nicely through the farm.

I am, an exciting CF prospect is good for the soul IMO.

I think he ends up fine. You don't have to hit much yet he's shown some decent numbers so far at a young age (a factor I weigh pretty heavily). Many seem to indicate he is starting to fill out and should have room to add more pop.

[thewupk]

I believe that Pache has gotten to bad wrap as being a slap hitter. At 18 years old in Rome he hit 20% line drives. Obviously the power isn't showing up yet but its always the last tool to develop. He has a frame where you would expect power to progress. Again - at 18 he did not embarrass himself at Rome. Thats not a ringing endorsement obviously but I don't see all this evidence that he is projecting to be a bad hitter.

The point isn't whether Pache is projected to be a bad hitter or not. It's that it's crazy to say his absolute floor is a below average major league hitter. That's not his floor. His floor is going full on Andy Marte or any other prospect that completely busts at the plate.

[thewupk]

Am I the only one that read this and thought thethe posted it?

And yes, I'm excited. Lots of potentially high impact players are progressing nicely through the farm.

lol. Actually if you want a true thethe post then look at Kiley's chat yesterday from Fangraphs. His Pache comments are 100% thethe

But it's hard not to like supposed A+ defenders at premium positions. The hitting barrier for them is so low to actually make an impact at the big league level.

[TheBravos]

I am honestly more excited about Waters (until I actually see Pache hit). When/if he does though...look out!!

[Russ2dollas]

I am honestly more excited about Waters (until I actually see Pache hit). When/if he does though...look out!!

Klaw loves Pache and thinks he'll hit.

Klaw's write up for Waters said that scouts told him Waters "can't hit."

Fun will SSS for 18 and 19 y/o.

[mfree80]

The point isn't whether Pache is projected to be a bad hitter or not. It's that it's crazy to say his absolute floor is a below average major league hitter. That's not his floor. His floor is going full on Andy Marte or any other prospect that completely busts at the plate.

I see your point.... using the correct precise language when talking about these guys is important since people dissect everything these guys say. You may be correct that Kiley's language is not precise enough.

I also like thethe's point. The evidence to date does not suggest that Pache is likely to be a bust as a hitter. Of course every young guy has that chance, hence the Andy Marte example. A guy who projects to be awesome defensively and average offensively is worth getting excited about... especially if the only thing we are arguing about is the appropriate use of the word "floor."

[Enscheff]

I see your point.... using the correct precise language when talking about these guys is important since people dissect everything these guys say. You may be correct that Kiley's language is not precise enough.

I also like thethe's point. The evidence to date does not suggest that Pache is likely to be a bust as a hitter. Of course every young guy has that chance, hence the Andy Marte example. A guy who projects to be awesome defensively and average offensively is worth getting excited about... especially if the only thing we are arguing about is the appropriate use of the word "floor."

When someone says a prospect's floor is a 10 win player over his pre-arb years, that's a pretty big deal, and is no longer a matter of semantics or "precise language". No dissection of his comments was required.

It wasn't just some passing comment he made in 10 seconds in a chat. He has stated this multiple times now with no hedging whatsoever. Kiley truly thinks Pache's worst-case scenario is Kevin Pillar. It is a stupid thing to say about a 19 year old in Low-A ball.

[smootness]

When someone says a prospect's floor is a 10 win player over his pre-arb years, that's a pretty big deal, and is no longer a matter of semantics or "precise language". No dissection of his comments was required.

It wasn't just some passing comment he made in 10 seconds in a chat. He has stated this multiple times now with no hedging whatsoever. Kiley truly thinks Pache's worst-case scenario is Kevin Pillar. It is a stupid thing to say about a 19 year old in Low-A ball.

It probably is, yes. He evidently thinks Pache's defense and athleticism is basically Pillar-level right now, and he thinks his floor offensively is a guy who hovers around a .700 OPS.

That is likely hyperbole and bias, but who the heck really knows. If he turns out to be at least that good, it will be hard in hindsight to say he was wrong.

I do not, however, myself think that is Pache's floor. I think his floor is basically a defensive replacement. I do think he is a virtual lock to make the majors in some role.