What to do with Uggla now?

[Lenny]

Now that the season is over, and Uggla was left off the playoff roster, does he really have a place with this team next year? I know a lot of players let things like this really get to them and he probably won't have a good attitude towards the Braves next year. With him making 13 mil the next 2 years, and his bad performance the past few years, I don't know how we can trade him for anything or even get another team to take him at all.

[BravesfanMike]

If we pay most of his salary and don't expect much back I think he is tradeable. He can't be happy with the Braves leaving him off the roster and it probably would be better for all concerned if he was just moved.

[Dalyn]

You lump him in with a prospect and save as much as possible.

[JohnAdcox]

Designate him for assignment. Hope someone claims. if not, Kawakami his butt to Mississippi and hope he retires. Which is a shame, because he truly seems like a great guy.

[chopdrew]

See what he does in the spring. He's basically unmovable, so you don't have to be in any hurry to move him. I think some people underestimate how long it takes to get that vision stuff sorted out. Now, I've heard that his eyes may even be worse. If that's the case, then try to get him to retire here so the Braves can get some insurance money.

[nsacpi]

We need some luck there. Cleveland picked up more of Lowe's last year of salary that I expected anyone would. The Angels got lucky when the Yankees decided to pay 11.5M of Vernon Wells salary in 2013 and 2.4M in 2014. I'm sure the Cubs are happy too with how much of Soriano's salary the Yankees picked up as well as the prospect they got in that trade. Timing is everything with these types of transactions. You need something to happen to make a team desperate for a second baseman. We'll see. Keep our fingers crossed. We need to be patient because until someone becomes desperate for a second baseman there isn't going to be much of a market for him.

[emk418]

It doesn't matter. Trade him and eat most of his salary or release him. Bottom line is he can't be on the team next year. We're not getting anything useful back for him.

[skillet]

It doesn't matter. Trade him and eat most of his salary or release him. Bottom line is he can't be on the team next year. We're not getting anything useful back for him.

Unfortunately I think this is exactly the case. Bottom line is Uggla cannot be a part of our team next year, Tommy La Stella needs to be our new second baseman.

[emk418]

Unfortunately I think this is exactly the case. Bottom line is Uggla cannot be a part of our team next year, Tommy La Stella needs to be our new second baseman.

I think having someone like Infante in this lineup would be huge. Sign him and give La Stella a chance to take over mid season.

[50PoundHead]

See what he does in the spring. He's basically unmovable, so you don't have to be in any hurry to move him. I think some people underestimate how long it takes to get that vision stuff sorted out. Now, I've heard that his eyes may even be worse. If that's the case, then try to get him to retire here so the Braves can get some insurance money.

Like I said last night, no one is going to trade for him prior to seeing him in spring training.

I've never liked Uggla as a player and was against signing him to an extension when he was traded to us. He was a bargain for the Marlins, but he hasn't been for us. Very one-dimensional guy. There's a reason why he was a Rule 5 pick. The fact that he's done as well as he has is rare among Rule 5 picks.

Like chopdrew, I have had the impression that Uggla's vision problems are perhaps more significant than advertised. His downturn was so dramatic after the surgery that I wondered if the problems were worse than we know.

Anyway, his status is a big question going into the off-season. Even if he could be traded, expect him to be carrying a big bag of cash to his new destination and a mid- to low-level prospect coming our way.

[jsebe10]

Unfortunately I think this is exactly the case. Bottom line is Uggla cannot be a part of our team next year, Tommy La Stella needs to be our new second baseman.

Yea and so does Ryne Sandberg. You can't just promote a kid who's never seen a major league pitch. I don't care what becomes of Dan...trade him and eat salary or hire someone to knock him off. He's got this franchise by the balls and we are all pretty much sick of his ****. He needs to go.

[zitothebrave]

Yea and so does Ryne Sandberg. You can't just promote a kid who's never seen a major league pitch. I don't care what becomes of Dan...trade him and eat salary or hire someone to knock him off. He's got this franchise by the balls and we are all pretty much sick of his ****. He needs to go.

Everyone needs to see a first pitch at some point. What difference is it if it's in meaningless games like Freddie, or to start the year like Jason. Only positive to waiting a bit is like Simmons we'd keep him under control longer.

No one will take Uggla, we're stuck with him. I'd start him out and if he struggles in April replace him with LaStella.

[nsacpi]

I hold out some hope that maybe for some people there is an adjustment period after LASIK. The Dan Uggla of the first half of 2013 was actually an acceptable player for us. If we can get that back, I'd be happy.

[Knucksie]

Like I said last night, no one is going to trade for him prior to seeing him in spring training.

I've never liked Uggla as a player and was against signing him to an extension when he was traded to us. He was a bargain for the Marlins, but he hasn't been for us. Very one-dimensional guy. There's a reason why he was a Rule 5 pick. The fact that he's done as well as he has is rare among Rule 5 picks.

Like chopdrew, I have had the impression that Uggla's vision problems are perhaps more significant than advertised. His downturn was so dramatic after the surgery that I wondered if the problems were worse than we know.

Anyway, his status is a big question going into the off-season. Even if he could be traded, expect him to be carrying a big bag of cash to his new destination and a mid- to low-level prospect coming our way.

If vision really is the key to his current state, then that's at least correctable. He's got the entire off-season to get that sorted out through medical attention. It can't be blamed on his physical conditioning, because he's probably is near the top in physical strength.

As for the people jumping on the LaStrella bandwagon, that solution seems a bit premature. Probably nobody here's even seen him play yet, and are not qualified to say that he deserves more than a promotion to AAA.

[50PoundHead]

I hold out some hope that maybe for some people there is an adjustment period after LASIK. The Dan Uggla of the first half of 2013 was actually an acceptable player for us. If we can get that back, I'd be happy.

Agree except if you are getting paid $13 million per year, one would like more than "acceptable." But if he gets back to the mid-.700s in OPS, that would earn his place and may pique interest.

[Knucksie]

It just defied all odds that two top paid players, with Uggla & BJ, would tank that much. Then consider the fact that the team was able to overcome their deficiencies enough to capture a division title.

[BravesfanMike]

There can be an adjustment period for Lasik. The vision in the eye can flucuate for months depending on the time of day. Vision is generally better in the morning and worse at night
I hold out some hope that maybe for some people there is an adjustment period after LASIK. The Dan Uggla of the first half of 2013 was actually an acceptable player for us. If we can get that back, I'd be happy.

[emk418]

If vision really is the key to his current state, then that's at least correctable. He's got the entire off-season to get that sorted out through medical attention. It can't be blamed on his physical conditioning, because he's probably is near the top in physical strength.

As for the people jumping on the LaStrella bandwagon, that solution seems a bit premature. Probably nobody here's even seen him play yet, and are not qualified to say that he deserves more than a promotion to AAA.

I'm on the La Stella bandwagon but no way do I want him starting opening day. If he earns the spot midseason then fine but no way does he get handed the job.

[mfree80]

Have heard reports that LaStella's defense makes Uggla look like a gold glover.

I want to see a lot more before plugging him into the 2B job.... A lot more...

[cajunrevenge]

Trade Uggla to Japan imo.

[gbpackers231]

I think having someone like Infante in this lineup would be huge. Sign him and give La Stella a chance to take over mid season.

i like this option. or kelly johnson, whichever comes for cheaper. but uggla has to go at this point

[Perfect Cell]

Uggla is untradeable keep and hope he is able to give you something


I do wonder how he would look at 3B

[Bj1133]

He has to better next year, right? Guy hustles every play and gives it his all, makes him easier to root for even when he is hitting under .200

Maybe he has to sacrifice some power to become a better overall hitter

[50PoundHead]

He has to better next year, right? Guy hustles every play and gives it his all, makes him easier to root for even when he is hitting under .200

Maybe he has to sacrifice some power to become a better overall hitter

You are really easy. I find it almost impossible to root for Uggla. I was Mr. Floorburns on my high school basketball team and I was easy to root for, but if I had played in anything other than garbage time (at let me stress no lead was safe with me on the floor), we'd have never won a game (and we didn't win many as it was). I strain credulity by comparing myself to Uggla in any athletic endeavor, and I cheer for every Brave, but this was simply a bad investment on Wren's part. Different strokes for different folks.

PC, Uggla played some 3B in the minors and was moved to 2B, so my guess is a move could prove problematic seeing it's already been attempted.

[Jay212033]

Trade Uggla to Japan imo.

Good answer!

[drewdat]

Perhaps like Milton some of his best work will come after blindness. Although I guess Milton had to dictate. Uggla for hitting coach?

[stpeteirish]

Perhaps like Milton some of his best work will come after blindness. Although I guess Milton had to dictate. Uggla for hitting coach?

I just read DOB's interview with Wren. Reading between the lines there, he's gone.

Thank God and Greyhound.

[emk418]

I just read DOB's interview with Wren. Reading between the lines there, he's gone.

Thank God and Greyhound.

I hope so. Honestly, we need to do what's best for the team and if we are unable to trade him (obviously with eating most of his contract) I would just release him. He would be a distraction on the bench. But I would think a team like the Blue Jays would maybe take a flier on him.

[BRule]

Unless we find someone to pay Uggla 2-3 mil a year for the next 2 years, he is going to be our second basemen....at least for the first 2 months of the season.

[GovClintonTyree]

Unless we find someone to pay Uggla 2-3 mil a year for the next 2 years, he is going to be our second basemen....at least for the first 2 months of the season.

I dunno. Reading that, it sounds like the only guy more fed up with Uggla than Wren is Fredi. Fredi's quote is what really leads me to say they've seen enough. Fredi has been his defender through the struggles he's had. He's not defending him now. "Tweaks and changes to help the club get better."

Pack your ****, Danny.

[thethe]

There is absolutely no way that Uggla is our starting second baseman next year. If the Braves feel LaStella needs more time someone from outside the organization will be brought in. There is going to be money to spend with Mac leaving.

[Dunit24]

I just have a feeling the Braves are going to sign a 2B like Infante or Kelly Johnson via free agency, call up La Stella, but also bring Dan to camp. We will give Dan an opportunity during ST to prove his worth once and for all, and if it works, great...if not, we have insurance.

[zitothebrave]

Kelly Johnson back on the Braves :pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:: pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:

[thethe]

Kelly Johnson back on the Braves :pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:: pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:

I'd be all for it. He can play multiple positions and has pop in his bat.

[Knucksie]

I'd be all for it. He can play multiple positions and has pop in his bat.

That's even more than Utley!

[stpeteirish]

I'd certainly take KJ as a utility man over Schafer or Ellliot Johnson. He won't cost much more than those two guys.

Or we could sign Kelly, pick up Reed's option, extend Chris, sign Elliot as a cheap 25th man and have even more Johnson's than we did last year.

[bravebonebook]

I'd certainly take KJ as a utility man over Schafer or Ellliot Johnson. He won't cost much more than those two guys.

Or we could sign Kelly, pick up Reed's option, extend Chris, sign Elliot as a cheap 25th man and have even more Johnson's than we did last year.

Don't forget, they could also offer Josh Johnson a 1 year contract to grow larger to other teams for a big explosion in free agency!

[emk418]

Don't forget, they could also offer Josh Johnson a 1 year contract to grow larger to other teams for a big explosion in free agency!

I fully expect Josh Johnson to get way too much money this offseason. He's the only FA SP with ace potential so I expect some team to go overboard.

[Enscheff]

I'd rather see Wren commit some cash to JJ for 1 year than commit a ton of prospects AND cash to Price for 2 years.

Adding Price to the roster would NOT have beaten the Dodgers in the NLDS this year.

This team needed 1.) a real OFer in LF, 2.) a legit MLB-quality bat in the order at 2B, and 3.) another shut down arm in the BP to make up for losing EOF and Venters. Those 3 problems are certainly fixable this offseason, and none of them are fixed by backing up the prospect truck to haul in David Price.

[Tapate50]

Reds want rid of Phillips. Bad contract for bad contract swap?

[BRule]

Reds want rid of Phillips. Bad contract for bad contract swap?

Uggla > Phillips

Phillips is signed for 4 more years and is shot and a headache off the field.

[Knucksie]

I just read DOB's interview with Wren. Reading between the lines there, he's gone.

Thank God and Greyhound.

Wren never gave an indication either way. DOB was the one who offered that speculation, and guys, if you're going to reference something that you read, how about linking to it?

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/atlanta-braves/2013/oct/15/wren-discusses-braves-season-and-future/

Here's the direct word from Wren:


Q. Once Uggla was left off the division-series roster, people outside organization immediately said, ‘Ok, that’s it’ (for him with the Braves). How do you view his future here in Atlanta?

A. “Nothing’s really changed in that regard. I think we made a decision, who was our best 25? And he wasn’t on that roster. We need him to perform better. I mean, that’s plain and simple.”

Q. Do you think things would have been any different if he had used the contact lenses in spring training?

A. “I don’t know. He started using the contacts in the middle of the season and it seemed to get better for a short time, and then it started deteriorating and he had a tough time in August. And then we talked about going ahead and having the surgery, to hopefully correct it to where he had time left in September to make progress. And there really wasn’t a lot of progress. And that really led us to the (playoff roster) decision that we made. I think, hope for Dan’s sake and our sake that he can make some adjustments, and with an offseason of getting used to normal vision, he can make some adjustments. That’s also a function of Walk and Fletch (hitting coaches Greg Walker and Scott Fletcher), I’m sure there will be a lot of work done there as well.”


Then this:


Q. Will you call Dan Uggla at some point to discuss what happened?

A. “I think we’ll let that simmer down a little bit and probably reach out to him and discuss that.”

Q. Is it realistic to think Uggla will be back on this team next year?

A. “I don’t know. I know that every year we make a lot of tweaks and changes to the club and we have to, to keep competing, keep getting better.

[Dalyn]

I, for one, hope Uggla is playing for Fredi next year.

[The Chosen One]

I, for one, hope Uggla is playing for Fredi next year.

On the Braves?

:icwudt:

[Dalyn]

On the Braves?

:icwudt:

Of course not.

[Tapate50]

Hearing #Braves would have interest in #Reds 2B Phillips if Cincy takes Uggla in deal. ATL probably have to include a top prospect.
Per DOB

[BRule]

Hearing #Braves would have interest in #Reds 2B Phillips if Cincy takes Uggla in deal. ATL probably have to include a top prospect.
Per DOB

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ugh, that would be such a Wren move to go along with the Uggla and BJ signing....if he does this, I'm done with him.

[Heyward]

Try to trade him but i dont see how they could without eating close to 20 of the 24 million left on his deal.

I would give LaStella a shot to win the 2B spot though.

[Heyward]

Hearing #Braves would have interest in #Reds 2B Phillips if Cincy takes Uggla in deal. ATL probably have to include a top prospect.
Per DOB

In, depending who that prospect is.

[Heyward]

Uggla > Phillips

Phillips is signed for 4 more years and is shot and a headache off the field.

Uggla is awful.

4 years of BP > 2 years of Uggla.

Not to mention BP is elite defensively while Uggla isnt that great.

[zbhargrove]

Uggla > Phillips

Phillips is signed for 4 more years and is shot and a headache off the field.

There is no planet or reality in the world where Uggla > Phillips... That being said, 4 year contract doesn't excite me .

[PawPawMaxwell]

You can play Uggla or release him. You can do the same thing with Phillips but would delay releasing him for 2 years, same money. Enables you to see what you have and who you will have in 2016 and beyond.

Wouldnt be the worse move but certainly not the most desirable. IMO

[Heyward]

.261 AVG, 18 HR's, 103 RBI's, while being very good defensively equals shot?

And no planet is Uggla > BP but his contract doesnt excite me.

[thethe]

Are people actually thinking an option involving Uggla includes him playing for the Braves next year in anything other than a pinch hitting role?

[thethe]

No thanks to Brandon Phillips. We don't need a long term contract on the books. Go with a short term option in FA. Even if Infante wants 2 years 16 million just give it to him.

[Perfect Cell]

Hearing #Braves would have interest in #Reds 2B Phillips if Cincy takes Uggla in deal. ATL probably have to include a top prospect.
Per DOB

awful idea.

[braves31win]

There is no planet or reality in the world where Uggla > Phillips... That being said, 4 year contract doesn't excite me .

Look at it as 2 yr deal since we would be on hook for Uggla for 2 anyways, if the reds were willing to pay Ugglas full salary of course. BP would actually be cheaper for next 2 yrs and then get 13 and 14 million for last 2 years which is not unreasonable for an AS/GG 2nd baseman.

I'm sure he will continue to decline some but he is head and shoulders better than Uggla

[Heyward]

Are people actually thinking an option involving Uggla includes him playing for the Braves next year in anything other than a pinch hitting role?

If we cant trade him, he'll probably start.

BP, meh, the 4 years left is what worries me more.

Not sure how he'll age.

Probably depends what prospects we'd have to give.

[BRule]

There is no planet or reality in the world where Uggla > Phillips... That being said, 4 year contract doesn't excite me .

Both are shot, when one is signed for only 2 years and the other is signed for 4....you take the two years, even if the player isn't as good. Hence Uggla > BP

2013:

Uggla wRC+ = 91
Phillips wRC+ = 91

Uggla wOBA = 303
Phillips wOBA = 307

Uggla OPS = 671
Phillips OPS = 706

Uggla's BABIP was also 50 points lower than his career norm, wereas Phillips was at his norm. So all things considered, they were both rather awful and Phillips was a little better but Uggla was way more unlucky.

[thethe]

Ugglas BABIP was so low because he wasn't hitting the ball hard EVERY. He had a 13% LD%. That is almost unfathomable.

Phillips is MUCH better than Uggla especially when you consider defense.

That being said there is no reason to bring that 4 year contract to Atlanta.

[BRule]

Ugglas BABIP was so low because he wasn't hitting the ball hard EVERY. He had a 13% LD%. That is almost unfathomable.

Phillips is MUCH better than Uggla especially when you consider defense.

That being said there is no reason to bring that 4 year contract to Atlanta.

If both have 2 year deals, you 100% do the trade. Phillips is signed for 4 more years at stupid money....I wouldn't even do the trade straight up, let alone give them a top prospect or any relevant prospect.

[thethe]

If both have 2 year deals, you 100% do the trade. Phillips is signed for 4 more years at stupid money....I wouldn't even do the trade straight up, let alone give them a top prospect or any relevant prospect.

I agree.

I'm just saying that Phillips right now is a much better player than Uggla. Uggla is about as useless of a player as Francouer was.

[Heyward]

The bigger concern is the prospects.

Someone like Bethancourt or Sims, no.

The contract isnt great but not horrendous.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Wren has to do that deal in a NY minute. If Phillips just puts up numbers in line with his career then it is a good deal regardless of years. However, if Uggla were to go to the bandbox in Cincy and come back to his norms of 250/36 HRs, Wren will never live it down. Especially on this board.

[BRule]

Phillips is 32, 33 mid year next year and has 4 years left and is coming off a 706 OPS year....They only way I'd take his contract is if BJ is going to Cincy.

[Perfect Cell]

The bigger concern is the prospects.

Someone like Bethancourt or Sims, no.

The contract isnt great but not horrendous.


◾6 years/$72.5M (2012-17)
◾signed extension with Cincinnati 4/10/12, replacing option year of previous deal
◾12:$12.5M, 13:$10M, 14:$11M, 15:$12M, 16:$13M, 17:$14M
◾award bonuses, including $75,000 for All-Star selection



paying him 14 m in 2017 NO THANKS

[thethe]

Why would anyone want to have Phillips here for four years? He is 32 years old.

Geez, i don't get some people.

Every long term contract moving forward needs to be with guys already on the team.

[CrimsonCowboy]

I'd rather have Phillips than Uggla, but then again, I'd rather have La Stella than Phillips.

The money is going to make this potential trade a tough one to do. For that reason, I don't think it happens

[PawPawMaxwell]

36 is not ancient for a BB player and you have to stop thinking of 14M in 2017 is too much compared to 2014 dollars.

[thethe]

36 is not ancient for a BB player and you have to stop thinking of 14M in 2017 is too much compared to 2014 dollars.

36 is ancient in the post PED (hopefully) era.

[thethe]

I'd rather have Phillips than Uggla, but then again, I'd rather have La Stella than Phillips.

The money is going to make this potential trade a tough one to do. For that reason, I don't think it happens

Agreed. Bring in a short term stop gap. Infante would be perfect on a 1-2 year deal.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I'd rather have Phillips than Uggla, but then again, I'd rather have La Stella than Phillips.

The money is going to make this potential trade a tough one to do. For that reason, I don't think it happens
I dont know. Phillips pretty much burned some bridges in Cincy with his tirade over Votto's deal and Im guessing that we dont know the whole story about Uggla's relationship with the Braves front office. The Braves have always been very low keyed about what goes on off the field.

[PawPawMaxwell]

36 is ancient in the post PED (hopefully) era.
I usually agree with you on most things and I realize how enthusiastic you are but thaat comment is pretty much BS.

[CrimsonCowboy]

One other thing to consider is IF the Braves are thinking about making this trade, how might this affect a possible deal for a #1 starter, which I think most of us agree, is what the Braves really need.

[Perfect Cell]

One other thing to consider is IF the Braves are thinking about making this trade, how might this affect a possible deal for a #1 starter, which I think most of us agree, is what the Braves really need.

I don't believe we do actually

[Heyward]

36 is ancient in the post PED (hopefully) era.

Beltran is 36, and he's still raking.

Pretty sure Jeter did well around the same age too.

[Heyward]

One other thing to consider is IF the Braves are thinking about making this trade, how might this affect a possible deal for a #1 starter, which I think most of us agree, is what the Braves really need.

Price is the only one maybe available, and i doubt we can get him without hurting the big league club like a Heyward/FF/Simmons/Minor/Julio would be in it.

[Dalyn]

Beltran is 36, and he's still raking.

Pretty sure Jeter did well around the same age too.

He said POST.

[skillet]

There is no way I'd do this deal, it would be a terrible trade.

[Dalyn]

If being President has taught me anything, it is an appreciation for Dan Uggla. That guy can really rake.

http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/PF_New/472008//4709690~Owl-Camouflaged-by-Leaves-Posters.jpg

[clvclv]

As odd as it seems, count me in. I've been expecting someone in the media to start kicking the tires on this deal for over a week now. Was on the verge of posting about why it would make sense from Wren's standpoint on my blog Wednesday...looks like it's time to start writing.

While the longer contract is a bit of a concern, a trade for Phillips would make this team arguably the most dynamic in baseball with the Uptons, Heyward, Freeman, and Gattis. Phillips' presence would certainly lighten the mood of everyone around the clubhouse - something that's definitely not happening if everyone has to wait and hope that Uggla suddenly has a resurgence. While I agree Wren didn't say it in so many words it's awfully tough to read his comments and come away thinking that if ANYONE would make a deal where swallowing the money makes sense, he's set on moving him.

Whether I'd do it if I were Cincy is an entirely different question...would have to be a pretty damn good prospect.

And making the deal certainly wouldn't prohibit Wren from going after a true #1 IF they're seriously considering it - the trade would be close to salary-neutral as well as significantly improving the team defensively...all the more reason to make a serious push for a Title while you've got this nucleus together.

[Gary82]

This (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/brandon-phillips-as-a-trade-asset/) is a great article about Phillips' value.

[NYCBrave]

Fangraphs is projecting Brandon Phillips to have a 3.0 WAR in 2014, and he's due to make 11, 12, 13, 14 mil in the next 4 years. With 1 War = 5 mil value, doesn't that mean he's undervalued per his contract?

[Gary82]

I think Phillips is definitely worth the contract next year and maybe the year after that. The problem comes with age and the potential for his skills to degrade, as well as his price tag goes up as he gets older.

[Braves1976]

I hadn't planned to post again this season after the loss in the NLDS. But given the Uggla trade rumors, I decided to come back and give my take on it. Personally, I don't like the idea of blocking prospects with someone like Phillips. We have some pretty solid second base options for the future, IMO. I see potential with Pastornicky, La Stella and also Peraza in a few years too. Phillips has a four year deal, so unless he's traded later on he'd certainly block the first two and possibly Peraza in a few years. However, I would be okay with taking on Phillips if only for a year or so. But the problem there is that Phillips also seems to be in decline (not so much like Uggla but still in decline). Plus he's getting older and would be moving from a ballpark that gives up cheap homers to one that doesn't. I could see Phillips going from 18 homers a year to less than 15 a year in Atlanta. So unless he bounces back with a solid season here we could find ourselves in a similar situation with him. This could be the case as soon as next off-season with him having three years left to go. I'm not willing to give up a top prospect to take such a gamble. If the Reds will take someone like Gilmartin along with Uggla, then I'd seriously consider it. But if they want someone like Sims or Bethancourt they can take their business elsewhere.

To sum it up, I don't really like the idea but I figure any trade with Uggla won't be pretty. Still, I would rather eat a lot of Uggla's contract and/or trade for another bad contract. At least if this trade includes giving up one of our better prospects. Quite frankly, if it does then I'm certainly not interested.

Note, we all know Simmons has short locked down. So Peraza will need to play second or third in the Majors. That's why I consider him among future options at second.

[Gary82]

I think Wren will probably look around at other options for second, but if the Reds take Uggla from us, it is awfully tempting to agree to that trade.

[Braves1976]

I think Wren will probably look around at other options for second, but if the Reds take Uggla from us, it is awfully tempting to agree to that trade.

It isn't tempting at all for me if the "top prospect" is someone like Sims. If it's not him they ask for it will likely be one of our other top starting pitching prospects, IMO. Then they might still want us to pay some of Uggla's contract too.

[Tapate50]

It isn't tempting at all for me if the "top prospect" is someone like Sims. If it's not him they ask for it will likely be one of our other top starting pitching prospects, IMO. Then they might still want us to pay some of Uggla's contract too.

No one but you has uttered the words "top prospect".

[PawPawMaxwell]

It isn't tempting at all for me if the "top prospect" is someone like Sims. If it's not him they ask for it will likely be one of our other top starting pitching prospects, IMO. Then they might still want us to pay some of Uggla's contract too.
They might want a "Prospect" to soften the blow but doubt that money would be a hold up. You have to understand that Phillips really pissed ownership off over the Votto deal.

[zitothebrave]

I'm with BRule, bad trade.

Phillips's offensive numbers the last year as wRC+

2011 - 122
2012 - 101
2013 - 91

We don't need another Dan Uggla in 2 years.

While Uggla blows, Phillips is on his way to sucking and while Phillips's floor is much higher because of his added speed and defensive value, Phillips will be on contract longer. No way do I trade Uggla and a top prospect for Phillips even if we toss in no cash. The one bright spot with Uggs is he's a FA same time as Justin and Jason so keeping those guys is made slightly easier because we have an additional 13M coming off the books after 2015, with Phillips we wouldn't have that money coming off in fact we'd be adding a cost of 14M on our budget so kiss one of them for sure good bye.

Say no to Brandon Phillips.

I'd rather pay Uggla 13M on the bench and start La Stella.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I'm with BRule, bad trade.

Phillips's offensive numbers the last year as wRC+

2011 - 122
2012 - 101
2013 - 91

We don't need another Dan Uggla in 2 years.

While Uggla blows, Phillips is on his way to sucking and while Phillips's floor is much higher because of his added speed and defensive value, Phillips will be on contract longer. No way do I trade Uggla and a top prospect for Phillips even if we toss in no cash. The one bright spot with Uggs is he's a FA same time as Justin and Jason so keeping those guys is made slightly easier because we have an additional 13M coming off the books after 2015, with Phillips we wouldn't have that money coming off in fact we'd be adding a cost of 14M on our budget so kiss one of them for sure good bye.

Say no to Brandon Phillips.

I'd rather pay Uggla 13M on the bench and start La Stella.
Just another reason I doubt you ever become a GM.

[Tapate50]

Just another reason I doubt you ever become a GM.

Good one. I laughed hard.

[zitothebrave]

Just another reason I doubt you ever become a GM.

Why because I'd rather not handicap my team long term with an obviously bad contract? Phillips probably makes us better next year, maybe the following year, but who do you prefer, Phillips or one of Justin, Jason, Freddie, Kimbrel, Minor, or Medlen because one of those guys will have to be let go for sure who may be able to be kept around because of keeping Phillips. I'd take everyone of those guys over Phillips every day and twice on Sunday.

[thethe]

Why because I'd rather not handicap my team long term with an obviously bad contract? Phillips probably makes us better next year, maybe the following year, but who do you prefer, Phillips or one of Justin, Jason, Freddie, Kimbrel, Minor, or Medlen because one of those guys will have to be let go for sure who may be able to be kept around because of keeping Phillips. I'd take everyone of those guys over Phillips every day and twice on Sunday.

There is no way you can justify bringing aboard as 32 year old declining player on that contract.

We are going back to the ridiculous notion of not trusting young players. EVERY MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER WAS AT ONE POINT A MINOR LEAGUER! Let that sink in for a second.....


Ok, now on to LaStella. He has two main positives:

1) He is cheap which is what the Braves need because its time to start locking up the core
2) He is the exact opposite of what most of the hitters are on that team and that is a contact hitter who doesn't strike out

So, all of the "know it alls" can smirk and laugh at some of us who want to play a unproven commodity. Or, you can do some research on LaStella and realize that he just might be exactly what the Braves need. With the way the developmental staff of the Braves has hit a homerun the last five years, I'm willing to take another risk.

Just remember, going up against some quality arms in the AFL he has 10 walks and no strikeouts. That isn't a typo.

[skillet]

Good one. I laughed hard.

So let me get this straight. You would trade Uggla and a top prospect for a declining Phillips that would end up costing us an additional $25MM over the next four years, when you have a 2nd baseman who has hit very well and had a high OBP at every level he has ever played that would cost us next to nothing over those four years. We could then use that $25MM to improve our club elsewhere. Sure glad your not our GM.

[skillet]

There is no way you can justify bringing aboard as 32 year old declining player on that contract.

We are going back to the ridiculous notion of not trusting young players. EVERY MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER WAS AT ONE POINT A MINOR LEAGUER! Let that sink in for a second.....


Ok, now on to LaStella. He has two main positives:

1) He is cheap which is what the Braves need because its time to start locking up the core
2) He is the exact opposite of what most of the hitters are on that team and that is a contact hitter who doesn't strike out

So, all of the "know it alls" can smirk and laugh at some of us who want to play a unproven commodity. Or, you can do some research on LaStella and realize that he just might be exactly what the Braves need. With the way the developmental staff of the Braves has hit a homerun the last five years, I'm willing to take another risk.

Just remember, going up against some quality arms in the AFL he has 10 walks and no strikeouts. That isn't a typo.

Very well said.

[zitothebrave]

Even ignoring Tommy, I'd rather have Uggla at 2B the next 2 years. I'd have more faith in him turning it aruodn than Phillips outperforming whoever we lose to FA because of acquiring him.

[thethe]

Even ignoring Tommy, I'd rather have Uggla at 2B the next 2 years. I'd have more faith in him turning it aruodn than Phillips outperforming whoever we lose to FA because of acquiring him.

A mid market team can only win by getting production from their farm system. Bottom line.

[Dalyn]

I say we make him go work at a *** strip club and donate whatever he makes back to the team. That will probably save more money than the team would get through a trade.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Why because I'd rather not handicap my team long term with an obviously bad contract? Phillips probably makes us better next year, maybe the following year, but who do you prefer, Phillips or one of Justin, Jason, Freddie, Kimbrel, Minor, or Medlen because one of those guys will have to be let go for sure who may be able to be kept around because of keeping Phillips. I'd take everyone of those guys over Phillips every day and twice on Sunday.

The idea is to get rid of Uggla. He is virtually untradeable without eating 18-20M Even DOB acknowledges this. If you bring up La Stella, you still have a 13.5M 2nd baseman. Phillips declined a very small bit this year. Was he in a snit? Who teh hell knows. But he has trended up the previous 3/4 years while Uggla has tanked over the same 3/4 years. So what if we have to dump Phillips in 16 and 17, its not worse than eating Ugglas money now. And you dont know who will or will not be kept around in 3 years. No one, not even Wren knows with this team.

And the last thing in the world I want to be is confrontational but to thethe's post following yours. Do people ever get tired of living in a prospects jock and reading box scores. If La Stella is the next coming, Im sure the front office knows what he can and cant do. Much better than posters.

[Dalyn]

The idea is to get rid of Uggla. He is virtually untradeable without eating 18-20M Even DOB acknowledges this. If you bring up La Stella, you still have a 13.5M 2nd baseman. Phillips declined a very small bit this year. Was he in a snit? Who teh hell knows. But he has trended up the previous 3/4 years while Uggla has tanked over the same 3/4 years. So what if we have to dump Phillips in 16 and 17, its not worse than eating Ugglas money now. And you dont know who will or will not be kept around in 3 years. No one, not even Wren knows with this team.

And the last thing in the world I want to be is confrontational but to thethe's post following yours. Do people ever get tired of living in a prospects jock and reading box scores. If La Stella is the next coming, Im sure the front office knows what he can and cant do. Much better than posters.

Phillips is owed more the final two years of his contract than we owe Uggla for his final two years. It is a terrible idea.

[thethe]

The idea is to get rid of Uggla. He is virtually untradeable without eating 18-20M Even DOB acknowledges this. If you bring up La Stella, you still have a 13.5M 2nd baseman. Phillips declined a very small bit this year. Was he in a snit? Who teh hell knows. But he has trended up the previous 3/4 years while Uggla has tanked over the same 3/4 years. So what if we have to dump Phillips in 16 and 17, its not worse than eating Ugglas money now. And you dont know who will or will not be kept around in 3 years. No one, not even Wren knows with this team.

And the last thing in the world I want to be is confrontational but to thethe's post following yours. Do people ever get tired of living in a prospects jock and reading box scores. If La Stella is the next coming, Im sure the front office knows what he can and cant do. Much better than posters.

I apologize if my post came across as confrontational. I apologize for my word usage.

I do however find it odd on the other side of the spectrum. Why are you and others so unwilling to give young players a chance? Tommy is not just producing at an OK rate, he has been excellent since he was drafted. Other than being slightly older than the competition there is nothing more you can ask from a prospect. Sure, he might have issues defensively but our main problem was that our hitting got shut down. If we can add one more good bat to this core, which is what I think LaStella would be, then it would be the best move going forward.

I just don't see how taking a 4 year deal for a 32 year old is smart. We need to allocate our money to our youngsters.

[zitothebrave]

The idea is to get rid of Uggla. He is virtually untradeable without eating 18-20M Even DOB acknowledges this. If you bring up La Stella, you still have a 13.5M 2nd baseman. Phillips declined a very small bit this year. Was he in a snit? Who teh hell knows. But he has trended up the previous 3/4 years while Uggla has tanked over the same 3/4 years. So what if we have to dump Phillips in 16 and 17, its not worse than eating Ugglas money now. And you dont know who will or will not be kept around in 3 years. No one, not even Wren knows with this team.

And the last thing in the world I want to be is confrontational but to thethe's post following yours. Do people ever get tired of living in a prospects jock and reading box scores. If La Stella is the next coming, Im sure the front office knows what he can and cant do. Much better than posters.

You know what, just for fun 2 players and their 30-32 seasons

Player A who has a certain owlish quality to him

30 - 135
31 - 111
32 - 104
(hint 33 91)

Player B should be obvious since I posted them before

30 - 122
31 - 101
32 - 91

Phillips has a CAREER 96 wRC+ so I think a decline is entirely likely.

So we're trading a 33 year old 2B with 2 years left on his deal for a 32 year old 2B with 4 years on his contract. Both have been in decline for 3 years.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Phillips is owed more the final two years of his contract than we owe Uggla for his final two years. It is a terrible idea.

IMO a lots worse idea would be giving McCann 5/75 which lots of posters here would like.
IMO a lots worse idea would be giving Josh Johnson what he will likely demand and get from someone.
IMO a lots worse idea would be trading what it would take to get Price
IMO it would still be worse to just dump Uggla nad get nothing. With Phillips there is enough that he has considerable more trade value than Uggla.

[thethe]

IMO a lots worse idea would be giving McCann 5/75 which lots of posters here would like.
IMO a lots worse idea would be giving Josh Johnson what he will likely demand and get from someone.
IMO a lots worse idea would be trading what it would take to get Price
IMO it would still be worse to just dump Uggla nad get nothing. With Phillips there is enough that he has considerable more trade value than Uggla.

I think most around here do not want to sign Mac or trade for Price.

If Johnson only wanted a 1-2 year deal I would definitely pay him 20 million total if those 20 million were incentive driven. Braves need to keep the contract obligations to a minimum in terms of years so when the big raises happen they are ready for it. Johnson is the type of high risk high reward that this team can take considering that they have in house options for their "holes".

[PawPawMaxwell]

I think most around here do not want to sign Mac or trade for Price.

If Johnson only wanted a 1-2 year deal I would definitely pay him 20 million total if those 20 million were incentive driven. Braves need to keep the contract obligations to a minimum in terms of years so when the big raises happen they are ready for it. Johnson is the type of high risk high reward that this team can take considering that they have in house options for their "holes".

Im done. And no apologies needed. It is me who was getting edgy and argumentative.
But read the last line of my previous post. Please. Uggla has no trade value other than SOMETHING like Phillips. phillips still has considerable value at this time contrary to Zitos unrelenting pool of non applicable stats.

[thethe]

But will Phillips have value in 2015? 2016?

Are we going to be in the very same spot in two years when we need money even more than we do now?

[Dalyn]

IMO a lots worse idea would be giving McCann 5/75 which lots of posters here would like.
IMO a lots worse idea would be giving Josh Johnson what he will likely demand and get from someone.
IMO a lots worse idea would be trading what it would take to get Price
IMO it would still be worse to just dump Uggla nad get nothing. With Phillips there is enough that he has considerable more trade value than Uggla.

Signing McCann is a bad idea.

Signing Josh to anything but an extremely friendly contract is a bad idea.

Don't agree.

Don't agree. Dumping Uggla for the few million you could save (the same you would save during the first two years of Phillips' contract) and giving someone cheap a try is a MUCH better option than trading one bad contract for another LONGER one.

Personally, I would go after Price and Zobrist in one huge deal. Something like -

Heyward, Wood, Hale, Avilan, Gilmartin, and Uggla for Price, Zobrist, and whatever salary relief you can get off of Uggla's contract. Should be a somewhat decent amount for that package.

[thethe]

That trade just blew my mind.

I guess if Wren went to Heyward with a 10 year contract extension that was fair and he says no I would do it.

But, if Heyward signs that deal there is no way I'm trading him.

[Dalyn]

That trade just blew my mind.

I guess if Wren went to Heyward with a 10 year contract extension that was fair and he says no I would do it.

But, if Heyward signs that deal there is no way I'm trading him.


It is a fair deal, don't you think? What Heyward would sign right now, no team would offer. That is my opinion.

[thethe]

It is a fair deal, don't you think? What Heyward would sign right now, no team would offer. That is my opinion.

If both Price/Zobrist sign extensions then I would agree. Just really hard to let Heyward go honestly.

[Dalyn]

If both Price/Zobrist sign extensions then I would agree. Just really hard to let Heyward go honestly.

Yep. I am with you, to a degree. But we only have him for the same amount of time that we would have Price and Zobrist (at minimum), and he is going to make A LOT of money.

[Dalyn]

What do you think the Rays say? And if that answer is yes, how much of Uggla's contract do you think they would be willing to pay?

[thethe]

What do you think the Rays say? And if that answer is yes, how much of Uggla's contract do you think they would be willing to pay?

Its an interesting question. The Rays won't be able to pay Heyward either but would probably love to get their hands on some good Wood.

I don't think other teams would offer a better player than Heyward but they might offer a slightly less effective player who is under control for longer so I think they would tell Wren they have to think about it first.

[cajunrevenge]

I am really mixed on Uggla/Phillips trade idea. Wouldnt really give them a top prospect for him unless your idea of top prospect is someone like Salcedo. I dont think its a foregone conclusion that BP is toast. That said even if he rebounds he is just a plus defensive 2B who puts up a .750 OPS. Still would be vastly overpaid. I think the Braves might just see Uggla's 26 million as a sunk cost which would make BP a 4 year 24 million addition which isnt that bad. We could release Uggla and sign Infante and it would be for around the same money.

[jsebe10]

www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/10/19/4855412/brandon-phillips-dan-uggla-braves-reds-mlb-trade-rumors

Not sure if this has been posted yet or not. I'd love this.

Thoughts?

[NinersSBChamps]

Can't see why the Reds would want to add Uggla. Although I would do this deal in a heartbeat. No idea what prospect it would take.

[Braves1976]

No one but you has uttered the words "top prospect".

No one but me? :happy0157:

David O'Brien ‏@ajcbraves 17h Hearing #Braves would have interest in #Reds 2B Phillips if Cincy takes Uggla in deal. ATL probably have to include a top prospect.

Which was also what MLBTR quoted in reporting the rumor too.

[The Chosen One]

Top Prospect of B.J. Upton should get the deal done. :eusa_dance:

[Knucksie]

www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/10/19/4855412/brandon-phillips-dan-uggla-braves-reds-mlb-trade-rumors

Not sure if this has been posted yet or not. I'd love this.

Thoughts?

The source is nothing more than a DOB tweet.

Assuming this is has legs, there are other factors to consider. Find out what is meant by "a top prospect." Next, there's the issue that Phillips could become a distraction before the end of this contract (either with the Braves or another club). Last, there's always the possibility that Uggla could start to turn around. The situation is a little different from Lowe, in that there's a physical problem If the root cause is the vision, there is time to adjust and there should be a willingness to work with the hitting instructors during the off-season. With Uggla, there's only 2 more seasons on the contract. With Phillips, there's 4. The Braves org can have a younger, much less expensive option a lot sooner.

It's something to consider, but not something to jump at the opportunity.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Someone with computer savvy might want to pull down Hal McCoys blog from the Dayton newspaper re: Phillips/Uggla.
If everything we have ever heard about the button down clubhouse in Atlanta is true then Phillips will never be a Brave. But why doubt that DOB and conjured up this rumor (thats what we do). Maybe both teams are so desperate that they have no other recourse. Reading McCoy's article, there may be no other interest in Phillips and when you leave Uggla off the post season roster for Janish and Johnson it says just where you value his services.

[skillet]

Someone with computer savvy might want to pull down Hal McCoys blog from the Dayton newspaper re: Phillips/Uggla.
If everything we have ever heard about the button down clubhouse in Atlanta is true then Phillips will never be a Brave. But why doubt that DOB and conjured up this rumor (thats what we do). Maybe both teams are so desperate that they have no other recourse. Reading McCoy's article, there may be no other interest in Phillips and when you leave Uggla off the post season roster for Janish and Johnson it says just where you value his services.

Here is that article:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

[skidlee]

The last thing the braves need to do is trade for a guy who is making more money at a position that could be filled by a player making a lot less.

Keep the money for the good players we need to keep.

[skillet]

The last thing the braves need to do is trade for a guy who is making more money at a position that could be filled by a player making a lot less.

Keep the money for the good players we need to keep.

Exactly

[Dalyn]

:facepalm:

[Knucksie]

Here is that article:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

The thing that's concerning, besides the length of the contract, is that potential attitude issue. Bobby Cox had the ability to deal with somebody, like Gary Sheffield. Of course, that didn't last very long, and Bobby's obviously not in the dugout anymore.

[PawPawMaxwell]

The thing that's concerning, besides the length of the contract, is that potential attitude issue. Bobby Cox had the ability to deal with somebody, like Gary Sheffield. Of course, that didn't last very long, and Bobby's obviously not in the dugout anymore.

The TWO things that are concerning to me are #1. Hal McCoy is a Hall of Fame journalist. His input cant be denied nor ignored.
#2. DOB is a bonafide journalist with lesser credentials than McCoy but never the less, journalistic integrity would mandate that his rumors are not founded in social media nor would they be unconfirmed. Journalist operate under the premise that "You say such but I must have confirmation". The Braves honchos were all in Orlando this past week. Was OBrien with them?????

[Dalyn]

Why are we all assuming murder is out of the question?

[Knucksie]

The TWO things that are concerning to me are #1. Hal McCoy is a Hall of Fame journalist. His input cant be denied nor ignored.
#2. DOB is a bonafide journalist with lesser credentials than McCoy but never the less, journalistic integrity would mandate that his rumors are not founded in social media nor would they be unconfirmed. Journalist operate under the premise that "You say such but I must have confirmation". The Braves honchos were all in Orlando this past week. Was OBrien with them?????

What does any of that have to do with my post?

[PawPawMaxwell]

What does any of that have to do with my post?
You stated what is concerning to you. Attitude is not all that concerning to me when it comes to professional athletes and I could give you some pretty good examples. I expounded on what concerns me. Pretty simple really.

[Knucksie]

You stated what is concerning to you. Attitude is not all that concerning to me when it comes to professional athletes and I could give you some pretty good examples. I expounded on what concerns me. Pretty simple really.

That HOF writer, Hal McCoy, indicated in that blog entry:


The reason is twofold: By dealing Phillips the Reds rid themselves of a contract worth $50 million over the next four years and they rid themselves of a troublesome personality in the clubhouse.

It's all over baseball, by now, so others (besides just the Reds) would share that concern, before agreeing on any kind of deal for Phillips. It'll be something that has to be managed.

He's a late bloomer, btw. Know how everybody still rants about the Texeira deal? Well, the Expos got raped on the Bartolo Colon trade. Our old pal, Conspiracy Theorist, might suggest that it was Frank Robinson being sent in to wreck the franchise in Montreal to help facilitate the eventual relocation to Washington (something not outside the realm of possibility). Brandon Phillips was actually the centerpiece, at the time, of that deal. Other pieces were Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and maybe another player. Phillips didn't really develop in Cleveland.

[bravesnumberone]

Phillips is a punk.

[AerchAngel]

They can pay half his salary and I would do Uggla straight up if they are that desperate.

We shouldn't send anyone their way, no one, nada, zilch if we going to take on those years and salary.

[Dalyn]

They can pay half his salary and I would do Uggla straight up if they are that desperate.

We shouldn't send anyone their way, no one, nada, zilch if we going to take on those years and salary.

Half of whose salary? Uggla's or Phillips'?

[zitothebrave]

That HOF writer, Hal McCoy, indicated in that blog entry:



It's all over baseball, by now, so others (besides just the Reds) would share that concern, before agreeing on any kind of deal for Phillips. It'll be something that has to be managed.

He's a late bloomer, btw. Know how everybody still rants about the Texeira deal? Well, the Expos got raped on the Bartolo Colon trade. Our old pal, Conspiracy Theorist, might suggest that it was Frank Robinson being sent in to wreck the franchise in Montreal to help facilitate the eventual relocation to Washington (something not outside the realm of possibility). Brandon Phillips was actually the centerpiece, at the time, of that deal. Other pieces were Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and maybe another player. Phillips didn't really develop in Cleveland.

Lee Stevens and Tim Drew were involved, Drew going to the Expos and Stevens to the Indians, Stevens finished his major league career that season. Tim Drew pitched in Montreal for 2 years before becoming a junk reliever for the Braves in 04 and that was the end of his major league career.

[AerchAngel]

Half of whose salary? Uggla's or Phillips'?

Phillips.

If they want to get rid of him that bad, we will take him, if they pay half of his salary and they get Ugly and only Ugly in return.

If they don't like those terms, keep him.

We got screwed enough in deals to last for a lifetime, but I did forget to read the fineprint in the memo, we are into getting screwed trades, division only crowns and our fanbase and owners are happy with that.

[thethe]

Trust the organizations developmental squad. PLAY LASTELLA!

[Dalyn]

Phillips.

If they want to get rid of him that bad, we will take him, if they pay half of his salary and they get Ugly and only Ugly in return.

If they don't like those terms, keep him.

We got screwed enough in deals to last for a lifetime, but I did forget to read the fineprint in the memo, we are into getting screwed trades, division only crowns and our fanbase and owners are happy with that.

I would do it if they paid all of Uggla's and half of Phillips'.

[chopdrew]

All I have to contribute to this thread is that anyone who would trade Heyward after his 2nd half is a moron.

[zitothebrave]

Phillips.

If they want to get rid of him that bad, we will take him, if they pay half of his salary and they get Ugly and only Ugly in return.

If they don't like those terms, keep him.

We got screwed enough in deals to last for a lifetime, but I did forget to read the fineprint in the memo, we are into getting screwed trades, division only crowns and our fanbase and owners are happy with that.

That's the only way I'd do it. I'd be ok with that because it wouldn't hurt us long term, basically CIncy would be kicking in the cash to pay Phillips' last 2 seasons and I could cope with that. Would rather have Tommy out there but I also wouldn't mind seeing what a DP tandem of Phillips and Simmons could do.

But that's the ONLY way I do it. I'd toss a non top prospect in as well but I don't really want Phillips, especially with the side drama.

[zitothebrave]

All I have to contribute to this thread is that anyone who would trade Heyward after his 2nd half is a moron.

I'd trade Heyward.................for Trout.

[Dalyn]

All I have to contribute to this thread is that anyone who would trade Heyward after his 2nd half is a moron.

37 games out of 530+. I love Heyward, but a hot second half cut short by injury should not decide whether a player is untouchable or not.

[Dalyn]

It would be like me saying, "Anyone who would not trade Heyward after his 1st half is a moron."

[CrimsonCowboy]

I still think there are too many variable for a Uggla/Phillips trade to happen. The money on both contracts is the biggest thing. Also, if the Braves have to give up a top prospect, who would qualify for that? Who would the Reds consider? Gilmartin? Salcedo? Bethancourt? Wood? Hale? I think the Braves need to do whatever it takes to trade Dan Uggla. But, I just can't see a deal for Brandon Phillips being a serious possibility for Atlanta.

[Gary82]

I'd trade Heyward.................for Trout.

YES PLEASE.


haha

[nsacpi]

I would not want to trade any of Wood, Sims, Peraza, Cabrera and Bethancourt as part of an Uggla for Phillips deal. If the Reds are open to a deal that does not include one of those five, I'd try to work something out.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I would not want to trade any of Wood, Sims, Peraza, Cabrera and Bethancourt as part of an Uggla for Phillips deal. If the Reds are open to a deal that does not include one of those five, I'd try to work something out.

Tell em why. I tried all day yesterday.

[rico43]

No way I deliver a gift-wrapped prospect tothe Reds for this deal,. I take his contract and like it, knowing we have another hometown guy and arguably the best second baseman in baseball. McCoy's arguments must be taken witha grain of salt; he now cincy's equivalent of Furman Bisher. (i.e. grumphy, grouchy yet knowing more about the team than guys who travel.) He has had multiple strokes and is legally blind and requires a driver to each home gme.

But that said, I loe Hal. He befriended a lost and out-of-hisleague rookie writer back in the 80s and even tried to get me into the BBWAA. I will only disagree with him respectfully.

[nsacpi]

Tell em why. I tried all day yesterday.

For me it is about having an appreciation of how valuable young cost controlled players are. If you are a mid-payroll or lower team, you should not be making trades that involve giving up your best prospects for older players. Now if the Reds had a young cost controlled second baseman, I'd be very interested and would be willing to give up one of our top prospects. But that's not the case.

[skillet]

For me it is about having an appreciation of how valuable young cost controlled players are. If you are a mid-payroll or lower team, you should not be making trades that involve giving up your best prospects for older players. Now if the Reds had a young cost controlled second baseman, I'd be very interested and would be willing to give up one of our top prospects. But that's not the case.

But that is exactly what Tommy La Stella is, a young, cost controlled, inexpensive on base machine. Trade Uggla for whatever salary relief we can get and move on. Don't compound the problem by taking on an additional $24MM over two more years. Not to mention Phillips is apparently a poor clubhouse guy to boot. I really hope this is just some idle speculation and the Braves don't have any real interest in him at all.

[nsacpi]

But that is exactly what Tommy La Stella is, a young, cost controlled, inexpensive on base machine. Trade Uggla for whatever salary relief we can get and move on. Don't compound the problem by taking on an additional $24MM over two more years. Not to mention Phillips is apparently a poor clubhouse guy to boot. I really hope this is just some idle speculation and the Braves don't have any real interest in him at all.

Yes. Having La Stella as a possibility is an important thing to keep in mind. We also have Pena and Pastornicky. Our internal options are not bad.

My point though was that if the Reds had young second baseman who projects better than La Stella, Pena and Pastornicky, I'd be interested and willing to consider giving up one of our top prospects.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Yes. Having La Stella as a possibility is an important thing to keep in mind. We also have Pena and Pastornicky. Our internal options are not bad.

My point though was that if the Reds had young second baseman who projects better than La Stella, Pena and Pastornicky, I'd be interested and willing to consider giving up one of our top prospects.
But if the Reds have that young, cost controlled player who projects as a ML 2nd baseman then they wont take/dont need Uggla. And to those who want to simply release or eat tons of Uggla's money and then use one of your above projections (take La Stella for example) that young player then becomes a 10-13.5M gamble. That player becomes more expensive than one of the Cuban expats.

[Knucksie]

Too bad we can't go back to the old days. At least then the hot stove league didn't heat up until after the World Series.

The La Stella hysteria is reaching epic proportions with a few on this board. Hardly anybody was even aware of him, a few week ago, now his being annointed for stardom. He'll get a look in ST, but he'll probably start the year at Gwinnett. Plus, as OP mentioned, there are internal options with Pena & Pastornicky.

Meantime, Wren is being pragmatic. He's going to let the situation simmer down, then reach out to Uggla. Let them determine the state of the man's vision, need for recovery/adjustment period and plan for work with the hitting coaches. It's still possible that this is the cause.

Like any team, a lot of Braves fans need to find a lightning rod to blame its frustrations. We all know that the season was a disaster for him, as it was for BJ. If it makes you feel better to rant on message boards, Twitter and DOB's comments section, have at it. Just be realistic when addressing the issue of $25 or $50 million in salary. After going through it with Lowe, something tells me that Wren doesn't want to have to eat salary, just to appease the fan base, without considering all courses of action first.

[nsacpi]

But if the Reds have that young, cost controlled player who projects as a ML 2nd baseman then they wont take/dont need Uggla. And to those who want to simply release or eat tons of Uggla's money and then use one of your above projections (take La Stella for example) that young player then becomes a 10-13.5M gamble. That player becomes more expensive than one of the Cuban expats.

That's right they don't have a young cost-controlled second baseman. My point being that under those circumstances I wouldn't be interested in a trade with them that involved parting with one of Wood, Sims, Peraza, Cabrera or Bethancourt.

I think the Rangers come closest to having a young cost-controlled second baseman I would give up a top prospect for. They have two, Profar and Rougned Odor. Ironically, Profar is probably too highly regarded for us to acquire without breaking the bank. But Odor is someone I'd be very interested in, more so than Brandon Phillips.

[zitothebrave]

Too bad we can't go back to the old days. At least then the hot stove league didn't heat up until after the World Series.

The La Stella hysteria is reaching epic proportions with a few on this board. Hardly anybody was even aware of him, a few week ago, now his being annointed for stardom. He'll get a look in ST, but he'll probably start the year at Gwinnett. Plus, as OP mentioned, there are internal options with Pena & Pastornicky.

Hey some of us have liked La Stella for much longer than just the past week or past season :snort:

That said, I liked Tommy as a value player. I think he'll be that. One thing I've learned in the last decade is not every quality major leaguer is a top prospect. When you see guys who only do 2 things or even 1 thing but do it extremely well there's value to that. We've now had 3 of those guys in recent years who've been key to our success recently. In the past it was Bourn and Prado, Bourn was a speed and defense guy who made acceptable contact. Prado a good contact guy with acceptable power. And Chris Johnson a line drive extraordinaire.

For me Tommy piqued my interest in 11 buy I rarely get excited for guys in one season, in 12 is when I really started following him. I think anytime you have a minor league player who walks more than he Ks he's worth getting a little excited for. He's shown to me that there's a very real chance he could be like Pedroia with the bat. Obviously not close to as valuable of a player as Pedroia cause aside from hitting very well, Dustin is a good baserunner and great defender. I think that's the type of guture we may have in Tommy, of course he may never hit it but if we can have a roughly 3 WAR or so 2B for cheap why not take it? Before this year, Uggla's worst season was a 2.2 fWAR, I don't think Tommy is as bad defensively as Uggla was for us in 2011 and I don't think a 111 wRC+ is out of the question for him.

In the end this is how I look at it, in 2013 Braves 2B combined for a 0.6 fWAR, we had the 3rd highest team fWAR in the NL. Where we struggled was quite obvious, CF and 2B. Now we made up for CF with outstanding catchers, Freddie, Justin, CJ, and Jason, but honestly how much much worse if at all can Tommy be than our 2B last year? He had Dan no hit no field Uggla and Elliot No Hit OK Field Johnson. How can Tommy be much worse than them?

Odds are we can't trade Uggla for much we'll largely be in the same boat we were in with Lowe. For me what will likely happen is Fredi makes 2B open competition between Uggla, Tommy, and Tyler.

[nsacpi]

I believe the Indians paid $5M of Lowe's contract. We were lucky to find a team willing to do that.

If someone offered a similar deal with Uggla (5M/year for the remaining two years) I'd say deal. But I don't think we'll be as lucky as we were with the Indians and Lowe.

Without a deal of that sort, I'd hold on to Uggla and make it an open competition in spring training for him and our other internal options. My guess is that Pena will end up playing more games at second for us in 2014 than anyone else. Fredi loves Pena. He's a very good defender (yeah his metrics at second are not great but given the small sample size I'm going to go with what my eyes tell me there) and just needs to hit decently.

[zitothebrave]

I believe the Indians paid $5M of Lowe's contract. We were lucky to find a team willing to do that.

If someone offered a similar deal with Uggla (5M/year for the remaining two years) I'd say deal. But I don't think we'll be as lucky as we were with the Indians and Lowe.

Without a deal of that sort, I'd hold on to Uggla and make it an open competition in spring training for him and our other internal options. My guess is that Pena will end up playing more games at second for us in 2014 than anyone else. Fredi loves Pena. He's a very good defender (yeah his metrics at second are not great but given the small sample size I'm going to go with what my eyes tell me there) and just needs to hit decently.

No one will take Uggla for 2 years most likely but odds are someone will take Uggla after this year as a 1 year gamble.

[nsacpi]

No one will take Uggla for 2 years most likely but odds are someone will take Uggla after this year as a 1 year gamble.

Yeah, the fact he has two years left reduces the chances we'll find a taker along the lines of the Indians with Lowe.

[Hudson2]

I like the Brandon Phillips idea. Nobody is gonna take Uggla, unless the Yanks lose Cano and get desperate. Wren also won't let Uggla be a 13k a year bench piece either. Phillips is a good player that may just want out of Cincy. And he'd be comin home to so a change of scenery may do wonders or him. So again, Uggla won't be traded unless it's for a team wanting to get rid of another contract or us eating the whole contract which they won't do.

[PawPawMaxwell]

I had a 20 pack of tickets this year.
Every game, Uggla's first at bat...Gimme a beer.
Second at bat, I gotta pee, get me a beer while Im gone.
Third at bat, I dont care.
And I dont even drink.
So if Wren wants to dump Uggla Ill kick in my beer money. lets see, 20 games, 3 beers a game, $9 bucks a game. Whats that $540????
Hey thats cheaper than watching that bum try to hit.

[Enscheff]

This is the type of deal I expect Wren to come up with for 2B. He will probably be looking to "fix" 2B again in 2-3 years when he is paying a 35+ year old Brandon Phillips to be terrible, but it should fix the position for now, and the Braves are in a position to win a WS NOW. He will slide right into the cleanup hole that Uggla was supposed to man, all the while playing excellent defense at 2B. The prospect going the other way is going to hurt, because the only players of any value may end up being really good (Wood, Sims, CB).

However, since this is trade would be pretty even salary-wise, it allows Wren to make other moves as well. All of a sudden signing a guy like JJ to an incentive laden deal with a $10M base salary makes a ton of sense. Getting a solid LHed bench bat is possible with the extra money as well.

[Knucksie]

Hey some of us have liked La Stella for much longer than just the past week or past season :snort:

That said, I liked Tommy as a value player. I think he'll be that. One thing I've learned in the last decade is not every quality major leaguer is a top prospect. When you see guys who only do 2 things or even 1 thing but do it extremely well there's value to that. We've now had 3 of those guys in recent years who've been key to our success recently. In the past it was Bourn and Prado, Bourn was a speed and defense guy who made acceptable contact. Prado a good contact guy with acceptable power. And Chris Johnson a line drive extraordinaire.

For me Tommy piqued my interest in 11 buy I rarely get excited for guys in one season, in 12 is when I really started following him. I think anytime you have a minor league player who walks more than he Ks he's worth getting a little excited for. He's shown to me that there's a very real chance he could be like Pedroia with the bat. Obviously not close to as valuable of a player as Pedroia cause aside from hitting very well, Dustin is a good baserunner and great defender. I think that's the type of guture we may have in Tommy, of course he may never hit it but if we can have a roughly 3 WAR or so 2B for cheap why not take it? Before this year, Uggla's worst season was a 2.2 fWAR, I don't think Tommy is as bad defensively as Uggla was for us in 2011 and I don't think a 111 wRC+ is out of the question for him.

In the end this is how I look at it, in 2013 Braves 2B combined for a 0.6 fWAR, we had the 3rd highest team fWAR in the NL. Where we struggled was quite obvious, CF and 2B. Now we made up for CF with outstanding catchers, Freddie, Justin, CJ, and Jason, but honestly how much much worse if at all can Tommy be than our 2B last year? He had Dan no hit no field Uggla and Elliot No Hit OK Field Johnson. How can Tommy be much worse than them?

Odds are we can't trade Uggla for much we'll largely be in the same boat we were in with Lowe. For me what will likely happen is Fredi makes 2B open competition between Uggla, Tommy, and Tyler.

Good post. Pena's in the mix, but they'd probably prefer to have him available as supersub. Hopefully, La Stella keeps raking in the AFL. Still see him as a year away. Why rush, if there's at least another year to work on the defense?

[skillet]

Very good article in TalkingChop regarding the sunk cost of Dan Uggla, of which I completely agree.

http://www.talkingchop.com/2013/10/21/4852438/on-the-economics-of-sunk-costs-or-why-atlanta-shouldnt-be-afraid-to

[Bravephoton]

It makes sense if we can handle his ego. He is MILES better than Struggla.

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/mlb/rumors/

[thethe]

There is no additional traction. This is a duplication of the same stuff that was reported. I am going to merge these two threads.

[skillet]

There is no additional traction. This is a duplication of the same stuff that was reported. I am going to merge these two threads.

Thank goodness there is no additional traction. I hope it dies on the vine.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Thank goodness there is no additional traction. I hope it dies on the vine.
Bowman is staying away from it but DOB is standing by his post.

[CrimsonCowboy]

Thank goodness there is no additional traction. I hope it dies on the vine.

I think it will. I just don't see it happening.

[Heyward]

As long as the prospect isnt a top one, i wouldnt mind BP at all.

With Mac all but gone, CB is off limits.

[VOLracious]

How much better is BP than Uggla? What's the WAR? OBP? They're the same age essentially. BP had Votto and Choo in the same lineup and drove in 98. His defense is better than Uggla's. He is signed for two years longer. Only 2 years from getting out from under Uggla. Take those two years and 26 million and give em to Mac. BP is not a Braves type player. JMO.

[Knucksie]

Bowman is staying away from it but DOB is standing by his post.

DOB needs Twitter and blog traffic after the Braves were eliminated.

[emk418]

It makes no sense. Yes I would much rather have Phillips but no way I want to take on another contract like that.

[Tapate50]

Wouldn't mind BP, but the longer contract is a deal breaker. It isn't in our FO nature to block a prospect either.

[jdunn]

In the future, ATL should stay away from any deal that involves the Florida Marlins. I can only think of two, Uggla and if y'all will remember, Mike Hampton had Marlin involvement to make that deal work.

As far as Uggla/BP, each time is going to have to bite the bullet, with Cincy needing to move BP more than ATL needing to move Uggla. In another setting, BP will outperform his 2013, while Uggla has essentially become Rob Deer lite.

[Russ2dollas]

I'm only on BP if the Reds are dumping him....like Uggla + C prospect for BP.

I don't love the contract cost or the length.

I wish I knew what the Braves didn't like about LaStella. He seems like a solid player that fits our needs and is cheap.

With BP + Uptons I wonder what our ability would be to keep other guys. We'd probably be able to keep 2 more 10 million plus guys.....but that means we're losing some of guys out of Heyward, FF, Simba, Minor, Tehran, etc.

[CrimsonCowboy]

This column kind of summarizes why I think a Phillips for Uggla deal will not happen:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/atlanta-braves-trade-brandon-phillips-wouldnt-holy-grail-191400544--mlb.html

[skillet]

Hell, I wouldn't trade Uggla for BP straight up much less give up a top prospect.

[PawPawMaxwell]

This column kind of summarizes why I think a Phillips for Uggla deal will not happen:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/atlanta-braves-trade-brandon-phillips-wouldnt-holy-grail-191400544--mlb.html
Reads like another blog writer who is fortunate enough to have some ad revenue and gets his material from reading internet boards.

[gtcway]

Hell, I wouldn't trade Uggla for BP straight up much less give up a top prospect.

Ditto

[Enscheff]

Angels might be looking to trade Kendrick:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/offseason-outlook-los-angeles-angels-of-anaheim.html

He makes $19M over the next 2 seasons, and should be able to put up a .330 OBP and a 750 OPS. Not great, but he is a at least a legitimate MLB player at 2B. No idea what it would take to get him.

[yeezus]

I really doubt we trade for a guy like Kendrick. I could see something like Uggla for Phillips, I would probably do that straight up. Getting Uggla off this team is a must. He needs to be gone one way or another.

[nsacpi]

Angels might be looking to trade Kendrick:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/offseason-outlook-los-angeles-angels-of-anaheim.html

He makes $19M over the next 2 seasons, and should be able to put up a .330 OBP and a 750 OPS. Not great, but he is a at least a legitimate MLB player at 2B. No idea what it would take to get him.

They might take La Stella.

[yeezus]

They might take La Stella.

Straight up?

[Enscheff]

It's not ideal to trade for the right to pay a guy $9M per year for a 750 OPS, but this team only has 1 hole that can be realistically fixed (since BJ needs to get another chance in CF). If Kendrick can put up 2 more 3+ WAR seasons (no reason to think he won't) it will be a huge boost to the team.

[nsacpi]

Straight up?

I suspect they would want a little more. Maybe also a second tier prospect.

[nsacpi]

It's not ideal to trade for the right to pay a guy $9M per year for a 750 OPS, but this team only has 1 hole that can be realistically fixed (since BJ needs to get another chance in CF). If Kendrick can put up 2 more 3+ WAR seasons (no reason to think he won't) it will be a huge boost to the team.

It makes more sense than the Phillips trade. Kendrick is younger and on a shorter contract. Less risk. Less expensive.

Maybe La Stella plus Northcraft. I think that would be a fair deal.

My first choice though would be to give the internal options a shot through May. I would make a mid-season trade if they didn't work out.

[yeezus]

I suspect they would want a little more. Maybe also a second tier prospect.

I think they'd want a much more valuable piece, like a good SP prospect. There's still no guarantee LaStella is 3/5 the hitter Kendrick is.

[Enscheff]

Kinsler is another option if Texas wants to make room for Profar at 2B.

[nsacpi]

Kinsler is more like Phillips. Older with a bad contract.

[nsacpi]

I think they'd want a much more valuable piece, like a good SP prospect. There's still no guarantee LaStella is 3/5 the hitter Kendrick is.

No guarantee Kendrick will be two-thirds the hitter La Stella will be either. Uncertainty is a funny thing. Works in both directions. Applies to old and young.

I do think Kendrick would be the better player in 2014. No guarantees tho.

[yeezus]

No guarantee Kendrick will be two-thirds the hitter La Stella will be either. Uncertainty is a funny thing. Works in both directions. Applies to old and young.

I do think Kendrick would be the better player in 2014. No guarantees tho.

Yeah but there's a lot more evidence at the major league level for Kendrick. There's none for LaStella.

[PawPawMaxwell]

It's not ideal to trade for the right to pay a guy $9M per year for a 750 OPS, but this team only has 1 hole that can be realistically fixed (since BJ needs to get another chance in CF). If Kendrick can put up 2 more 3+ WAR seasons (no reason to think he won't) it will be a huge boost to the team.
Indications LAA are up against the cap tax and desperate for starting pitching. Dont think prospects would interest them much at this point. They also have a pretty good 2nd base prospect named Green IIRC>

[nsacpi]

Yeah but there's a lot more evidence at the major league level for Kendrick. There's none for LaStella.

Myers Shields

Sometimes the major league experience is trivial compared to other considerations. There is always forecast uncertainty for each season for each player, regardless of what level they come from. I'm not so sure there is less uncertainty for a younger player. Every year we see established major leaguers way underperform or overperform their established baseline.

[thethe]

I don't see why we can't just play LaStella.

[Heyward]

After thinking about it, i'd just trade Uggla for whatever we can get, and give LaStella a shot at 2B.

[KB21]

I don't see why we can't just play LaStella.

I agree.

Something tells me that because he doesn't have great speed/athelticism and doesn't have home run power, the Braves aren't going to think as highly of him as we do.

[nsacpi]

I'm not as high as La Stella as some others around here, but I think we should give him a shot to win the job in spring training.

[Enscheff]

I'm not as high as La Stella as some others around here, but I think we should give him a shot to win the job in spring training.

I would only agree with this if Wren didn't have resources to play with. If the Braves were up against their payroll cap, I would say it's wise to go into the season with a 2B a huge questionmark, and let Uggla/Pena/Pastor/LaStella battle it out.

But that's not the case. Why even take the chance when Wren can just fix 2B and not worry about it? All those other guys will still be there in case of injury, so why start the season without firing all your bullets in the offseason?

I just don't see the point in settling at 2B when there are plenty of options/resources to fix it.

[skidlee]

I would only agree with this if Wren didn't have resources to play with. If the Braves were up against their payroll cap, I would say it's wise to go into the season with a 2B a huge questionmark, and let Uggla/Pena/Pastor/LaStella battle it out.

But that's not the case. Why even take the chance when Wren can just fix 2B and not worry about it? All those other guys will still be there in case of injury, so why start the season without firing all your bullets in the offseason?

I just don't see the point in settling at 2B when there are plenty of options/resources to fix it.



Fix it with who?

[thethe]

I don't believe in wasting resources when there is a reasonable chance we have an in house option. Just like Mac with Gattis, I don't think we should spend our trade chips on second base. We will have other positions that need to be filled moving forward without a realistic option in waiting.

[Enscheff]

Phillips, Kendrick, Kinsler, any other MLB level hitter that can man 2B and actually provide offensive value.

There is no reason to go into the season with a known gaping hole of suck at 2B. It's not like a 2B version of Heyward or Freeman are sitting on the farm waiting to get their shot. All the internal options are fringe at best, so bring in an established player.

This is a WS contending team with a $100M+ payroll, so Wren needs to act like it and fix the biggest hole on the roster.

[thethe]

The worst thing a mid market team like the Braves can do is trade away a league minimum player who becomes productive. I don't see why we shouldn't expect LaStella to be league average.

[skidlee]

Phillips has had 2 down years and is owed 50 mill over the next 4 years. This is dan Uggla part 2. Pass.

Kindrrick has said to be on the block but what are you giving up? IMO it would have to be a starting pitcher. Say Medlen?

Kinsler has never been mentioned on the block and they have said to want him to move positions. I don't see him beig traded.

So you want to hurt one area (the rotation) to fix another area (2B) when the braves could have a 2B that provide offensive value at the league minimum?

Sign Infante I could see. But trading for any of the 3 mentioned I don't see happening. The braves have to sign Freeman, Heyward, and other long term before the take on another big contract.

The biggest hole on the roster is the lack of top flight pitching not 2B

[thethe]

I think there biggest hole is youth and that can get solved quickly.

[nsacpi]

Phillips and Kinsler are high risk given their ages and contracts.

Kendrick I would have some interest in. I'd do a trade that sent La Stella and Northcraft for Kendrick.

But I think the best course if to try the internal options through May. If none of them pan out, I would look for a mid-season trade replacement.

[skidlee]

I don't see the angels really being interested in a deal like that for Kendrick.

[thethe]

I think they will assess till June and see how Tommy adjusts.

But, it would be nice to have Omar here for two years.

[nsacpi]

I don't see the angels really being interested in a deal like that for Kendrick.

Probably not. It is hard to say what direction that team is headed.

[PawPawMaxwell]

No where in the last 2 pages has anyone addressed the theme of this thread. What do you do with Uggla if you want any of the potentials named????

[thethe]

No where in the last 2 pages has anyone addressed the theme of this thread. What do you do with Uggla if you want any of the potentials named????

If nobody wants to take him for 10 cents on the dollar then I would just release him. There is no way his bat will play well off the bench. Just admit the mistake and move on.

[Hokie]

Dan is gone!

Wren is going to have to move him somehow(he will eat 20/22 million to do so, and someone will take a flyer at 2/3 million/per).

With that said, the only option left from Frank's chair because of the "money already spent on Uggla" will be to fill the void at 2B with neutral cash. In other words, he will have 2 or 3 million/per to spend.

Two options present themselves from our current 40man and also help in terms of another issue(leadoff). I expect that Frank goes with a Pena/Pastor platoon at second base to start the season w/La Stella as a possible option after memorial day if the platoon isn't working.

This option isn't sexy, but it makes sense in terms of addition thru subtraction (uggla), leadoff (pena lefty/pastor righty) and not going further into financial abyss with a contract like Phillips who simply provides us another 6/7 hitter we don't need.

Lineup:

2B - Pena/Pastor*
RF - Heyward
LF - JUP
1B - FF
C - Gattis
3B - Johnson
SS - Simmons
CF - Schafer/BUP*

* - Pena/Pasto could be flipped with Schafer/Bup at the leadoff spot


As for CF, I would let it also be know this winter that BUP is not safe with his spot in CF. Let it be known that CF is a platoon at best going into spring, and the competition is wide open. We need BJ to understand that his approach is broken at that we need his approach to change. This also keeps the budget in tact and allows us to spend on bench, pitching and our core future signings.

At C, I go with Gattis and Laird (with CB in AAA). If things are going well with Gattis at C and CB steadily improving....I move Laird as a key piece heading into the trade deadline and go with Gattis and CB after the break.

Pitching - Looking for the "ace", but unlikely that happens this offseason. I look for growth from our young staff as that bump we need next season along with a return from Beachy. i sign Huddy as the 5th starter to a 1yr deal @ 5-7 mil.

Minor, JT, Medlen, Wood and Huddy (fingers crossed on Beachy) - out of Spring training

[PawPawMaxwell]

If nobody wants to take him for 10 cents on the dollar then I would just release him. There is no way his bat will play well off the bench. Just admit the mistake and move on.

I totally agree with this approach but 10 cents is optimistic IMO. I think finding a trade partner will be impossible and he will simply get released then the best you hope for is someone signs him at league minimum in 2015. IIRC if they sign him at minimum for 2014 they then become responsible for full 14M in 2015.

Regardless, Wren and Co need to be certain of who they select going foreward. Pastor has had some chances, Pena has never proven to be a ML starter in the past and La Stella is an unknown. Not an enviable position and no simple choices there.

[skillet]

Very simple. Trade Uggla for whatever salary relief we can get for him, and Tommy becomes our everyday 2nd baseman with Rev on the bench backing him up.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Very simple. Trade Uggla for whatever salary relief we can get for him, and Tommy becomes our everyday 2nd baseman with Rev on the bench backing him up.

OK. Im Frank Wren and Ive talked to every GM out there and none of them are interested in trading even a used ball or a cracked bat for him. What do I do next?

[skidlee]

Uggla is either going to be traded for nothing or he will be a brave until the end of ST and the very least. They are not going to release him and eat 26 mill right now. If they find no takers during the offseason then they will go into ST with him and see what he does. If he sucks then they send him to AAA or cut him and let someone else take over 2B. If he does well then they might then can find a taker for him and save some (all be it not much) cash.

The braves are not going to trade for any 2B with him still on the roster so until Uggla isn't a brave don't expect a new 2B from outside the ORG.

[skillet]

Uggla is either going to be traded for nothing or he will be a brave until the end of ST and the very least. They are not going to release him and eat 26 mill right now. If they find no takers during the offseason then they will go into ST with him and see what he does. If he sucks then they send him to AAA or cut him and let someone else take over 2B. If he does well then they might then can find a taker for him and save some (all be it not much) cash.

The braves are not going to trade for any 2B with him still on the roster so until Uggla isn't a brave don't expect a new 2B from outside the ORG.

I would agree with this. However, he did hit 22 homers last year, and some team, especially one in the AL where he could DH, should be willing to pay him $2MM to $3MM per year for that production. The question is just how much is Wren willing to eat?

[GovClintonTyree]

OK. Im Frank Wren and Ive talked to every GM out there and none of them are interested in trading even a used ball or a cracked bat for him. What do I do next?

Somebody will take a flyer on him for $2m per year. Frank saves face and a few bucks.

You know, he's had buzzard's luck on big contracts. I mean, one could see Uggla declining over the course of the deal - Frank probably did - but for the guy to fall that far, that fast....

[nsacpi]

OK. Im Frank Wren and Ive talked to every GM out there and none of them are interested in trading even a used ball or a cracked bat for him. What do I do next?

Nothing until spring training. If Uggla isn't good enough in spring training to earn a spot on the roster, cut him at the end of spring training.

[50PoundHead]

Uggla is either going to be traded for nothing or he will be a brave until the end of ST and the very least. They are not going to release him and eat 26 mill right now. If they find no takers during the offseason then they will go into ST with him and see what he does. If he sucks then they send him to AAA or cut him and let someone else take over 2B. If he does well then they might then can find a taker for him and save some (all be it not much) cash.

The braves are not going to trade for any 2B with him still on the roster so until Uggla isn't a brave don't expect a new 2B from outside the ORG.

I think the problem is that to trade Uggla for salary relief, you probably have to send a prospect with him. Wren is going to have to balance the value of a prospect over just eating the $26 million. I don't think we can get anything for him straight up and all the other GMs in the game would just as soon wait for the designated-for-assignment notice, have him pass through waivers, and sign him for the minimum. I highly doubt there will be an intense bidding war for him, but if he's only going to be due the minimum, you might have a half dozen franchises willing to take a longer look.

And I agree with nsacpi that nothing probably happens until spring training. Everyone is going to want to see him against live pitching. That precludes signing Infante (at least to me) and as much as I like Omar Infante, I wonder if he'd be worth the investment.

[thethe]

Honestly, I wouldn't even bring him to spring training. I think it will be too much of a distraction. Time to move on.

[nsacpi]

I think the problem is that to trade Uggla for salary relief, you probably have to send a prospect with him. Wren is going to have to balance the value of a prospect over just eating the $26 million. I don't think we can get anything for him straight up and all the other GMs in the game would just as soon wait for the designated-for-assignment notice, have him pass through waivers, and sign him for the minimum. I highly doubt there will be an intense bidding war for him, but if he's only going to be due the minimum, you might have a half dozen franchises willing to take a longer look.

And I agree with nsacpi that nothing probably happens until spring training. Everyone is going to want to see him against live pitching. That precludes signing Infante (at least to me) and as much as I like Omar Infante, I wonder if he'd be worth the investment.

The other possibility is we take on another bad contract in getting rid of Uggla. I hate the idea of giving up a prospect or taking on a bad contract to move him. But it all depends on the details.

[Knucksie]

Honestly, I wouldn't even bring him to spring training. I think it will be too much of a distraction. Time to move on.

Yeah, we've gotta make way for La Stella. Fresh off AA, he's already Ryne Sandberg lite.

[50PoundHead]

Yeah, we've gotta make way for La Stella. Fresh off AA, he's already Ryne Sandberg lite.

If La Stella retires tomorrow, does he still have to wait 6 years to be voted into the HOF? Hey, I'm interested in seeing how he'll do and I'm somewhat optimistic, but his name keeps getting tossed around like he's going to make us all forget the great Nellie Fox.

[yeezus]

If La Stella retires tomorrow, does he still have to wait 6 years to be voted into the HOF. Hey, I'm interested in seeing how he'll do and I'm somewhat optimistic, but his name keeps getting tossed around like he's going to make us all forget the great Nellie Fox.

I think we're tossing his name around in a "he should be a lot more productive than uggla" way.

[Knucksie]

I think we're tossing his name around in a "he should be a lot more productive than uggla" way.

It's approaching Andy Marte-level hype. Y'know, the guy who was going to force Chipper into an early retirement.

[50PoundHead]

I think we're tossing his name around in a "he should be a lot more productive than uggla" way.

If that's the bar, carry on.

[BremanFan88]

It's approaching Andy Marte-level hype.

Link? Didn't think so... Hyperbole is fun though, I guess.

[yeezus]

It's approaching Andy Marte-level hype. Y'know, the guy who was going to force Chipper into an early retirement.

Na not at all. I think most are hopeful and optimistic that he could be a solid contact, high-OBP guy, which would be beneficial to our lineup. No one claimed he would be Matt Carpenter, but simply comparing the stats is worth looking at. It's not likely he becomes any where near as good as Carpenter was this year, but it at least shows that it's not impossible.

He's giving us reasons to be optimistic, and that's worth discussing.

[yeezus]

The ones who criticize the people talking about LaStella are more ridiculous than those talking about him. I've read no predictions that he will be the next great Atlanta Brave. Many have said he deserves a shot to win the job, which the argument can definitely be made, and others have posted reasonable number projections (I don't think any were above like .755 OPS, many around or below .700) which isn't crazy...

...but better than Uggla.

[Dunit24]

I havent had time to read through all threads, but reading about a potential trade between the Braves and Reds(Phillips for Uggla) excites me. If Wren can pull that off, not only do we add a gold glove 2B, but a guy that drove in 100 runs.

[Tapate50]

It is the off season with little to no news. What do you expect? AFL is all we got right now.

And no one is throwing out huge projections for La Stella . Just excited for new blood with promise at the keystone.

[Knucksie]

Link? Didn't think so... Hyperbole is fun though, I guess.

Link to what? Go back and read through the threads with references to him. It's past the point of overkill.

[yeezus]

Link to what? Go back and read through the threads with references to him. It's past the point of overkill.

What is past the point of overkill? Wanting to give him a shot and see what he's got based on his undeniably impressive numbers so far? No one is predicting him to be amazing. But better than what we've got? Why is that going too far?

[Knucksie]

What is past the point of overkill? Wanting to give him a shot and see what he's got based on his undeniably impressive numbers so far? No one is predicting him to be amazing. But better than what we've got? Why is that going too far?

So, he'll be in camp and get his opportunity, just like the others. It doesn't have to be a daily wankfest about another Braves prospect, whose undeniably impressive numbers have only been against minor league pitching.

[clvclv]

Sounds like someone's upset that they weren't first on the La Stella bandwagon to me...just sayin'.

Exactly how many people do you know that frequent internet message boards that have the number of posters with expanded knowledge of their team's farm system where "daily wankfests" about prospects aren't the norm read them for other reasons anyway???

People here (and formerly Scout) have long gushed over prospects - it's the Braves' way. If you aren't interested in conversations about them that sometimes border on the absurd (your example of Marte), you're probably reading the wrong board.

[thethe]

How many productive players do the Braves have to produce over a five year span to make our fans realize that the minor league system knows how to develop players? Its amazing that we have fans that consistently want to go after over the hill players or trade many assets when its clear that we have a POTENTIAL replacement already waiting in the wings. I just don't get it.

[nsacpi]

It took a couple disasters (the Teixeira and Wainwright trades) and a switch to a new GM, but I think the Bravos now have the right approach in terms of keeping and giving opportunities to homegrown players rather than chasing after that mythical "missing piece" that will ensure a WS ring.

Wren has done a good job of only shipping out second-tier prospects. Delgado is probably the best prospect he's traded and I don't think we can complain about that trade. Wren did get lucky though when Dempster decided he didn't want to play for us.

[thethe]

It took a couple disasters (the Teixeira and Wainwright trades) and a switch to a new GM, but I think the Bravos now have the right approach in terms of keeping and giving opportunities to homegrown players rather than chasing after that mythical "missing piece" that will ensure a WS ring.

Wren has done a good job of only shipping out second-tier prospects. Delgado is probably the best prospect he's traded and I don't think we can complain about that trade. Wren did get lucky though when Dempster decided he didn't want to play for us.

Can't say how much I agree with this post. A mid market team cannot afford to chase players who are question marks. Nothing is more valueable than a league minimum player that is producing. Adrelton Simmons might have been the most valueable player in baseball last year.

[stpeteirish]

Dodgers aren't picking up Mark Ellis' option, making him a free agent. Doesn't he make sense as a one year 2b? Assuming we move Uggla, of course.

[clvclv]

Dodgers aren't picking up Mark Ellis' option, making him a free agent. Doesn't he make sense as a one year 2b? Assuming we move Uggla, of course.

No need to pay someone like Ellis or Infante. Just my opinion, but I have to think they'd only go after someone like that in the event they're not convinced La Stella's capable enough to eventually handle the job everyday. Have to figure they'd just kinda mix and match with Uggla, Johnson, Patornicky, La Stella, and Pena (when he returns) until Tommy's ready to play every day. Money thrown at guys like that when you have available in-house options would be much better spent on extensions.

[nsacpi]

No need to pay someone like Ellis or Infante. Just my opinion, but I have to think they'd only go after someone like that in the event they're not convinced La Stella's capable enough to eventually handle the job everyday. Have to figure they'd just kinda mix and match with Uggla, Johnson, Patornicky, La Stella, and Pena (when he returns) until Tommy's ready to play every day. Money thrown at guys like that when you have available in-house options would be much better spent on extensions.

Plus there is always the option of a mid-season trade if the in-house candidates don't pan out. Going in-house initially is a calculated risk worth taking imo.

[Enscheff]

No need to pay someone like Ellis or Infante. Just my opinion, but I have to think they'd only go after someone like that in the event they're not convinced La Stella's capable enough to eventually handle the job everyday. Have to figure they'd just kinda mix and match with Uggla, Johnson, Patornicky, La Stella, and Pena (when he returns) until Tommy's ready to play every day. Money thrown at guys like that when you have available in-house options would be much better spent on extensions.

While I completely disagree that Wren should just let the 2B fodder currently on the roster compete for the 2B job in ST, I am totally on board with the idea of NOT signing a guy like Ellis or Infante. There is no point in bringing in another mediocre option for 2B since there are already plenty of those options on the roster.

Either fix 2B, or let it ride. Don't waste money on lateral moves.

[yeezus]

While I completely disagree that Wren should just let the 2B fodder currently on the roster compete for the 2B job in ST, I am totally on board with the idea of NOT signing a guy like Ellis or Infante. There is no point in bringing in another mediocre option for 2B since there are already plenty of those options on the roster.

Either fix 2B, or let it ride. Don't waste money on lateral moves.

Who do you suggest bringing in, then?

[Knucksie]

Sounds like someone's upset that they weren't first on the La Stella bandwagon to me...just sayin'.

Was never on that bandwagon, but willing to wait and see how things play out. He might be fine. Doing cartwheels over a prospect, especially repeatedly, on a message board just isn't my M.O. You will, however, see an honest impression after actually seeing them play. Four games is by no means definitive, but it is a snapshot.

Until at least next year, winning a playoff series will excite me more than a hot streak in the AFL.


Exactly how many people do you know that frequent internet message boards that have the number of posters with expanded knowledge of their team's farm system where "daily wankfests" about prospects aren't the norm read them for other reasons anyway???

Nobody was even mentioning him until about month ago, and only one person was aware of him. The guy from BA, who's probably actually watched him play, had him ranked as only 14th top Braves prospect. Overreaction to the Uggla situation here. Somebody else already as much as admitted as such.

It used to be the organization, that hyped the prospects. Brad Komminsk was Dale Murphy Jr. George Lombard was going to patrol the OF for years. They came and went after significant investment. Now, it's the fans. In terms of "expanded knowledge," this isn't very convincing. It's mostly college kids, spending entirely too much time on the internet and probably not enough time with female companionship.


People here (and formerly Scout) have long gushed over prospects - it's the Braves' way. If you aren't interested in conversations about them that sometimes border on the absurd (your example of Marte), you're probably reading the wrong board.

The Marte example was hardly absurd. He was going to provide a decade of Gold Gloves with Mike Schmidt power, forcing Chipper into an early retirement even. Then there was the man-love for the mediocrity of Kelly.

[yeezus]

Was never on that bandwagon, but willing to wait and see how things play out. He might be fine. Doing cartwheels over a prospect, especially repeatedly, on a message board just isn't my M.O. You will, however, see an honest impression after actually seeing them play. Four games is by no means definitive, but it is a snapshot.

Until at least next year, winning a playoff series will excite me more than a hot streak in the AFL.



Nobody was even mentioning him until about month ago, and only one person was aware of him. The guy from BA, who's probably actually watched him play, had him ranked as only 14th top Braves prospect. Overreaction to the Uggla situation here. Somebody else already as much as admitted as such.

It used to be the organization, that hyped the prospects. Brad Komminsk was Dale Murphy Jr. George Lombard was going to patrol the OF for years. They came and went after significant investment. Now, it's the fans. In terms of "expanded knowledge," this isn't very convincing. It's mostly college kids, spending entirely too much time on the internet and probably not enough time with female companionship.



The Marte example was hardly absurd. He was going to provide a decade of Gold Gloves with Mike Schmidt power, forcing Chipper into an early retirement even. Then there was the man-love for the mediocrity of Kelly.


Wait a minute...you mean to tell me that fans are optimistic about their prospects? That's just offensive!
A lot of people (even outside Braves fans and people in the org.) thought very highly of Marte. Guess what? Some prospects bust.
Again, no one is saying LaStella is bound to be a star. But, people look at his tools and feel he good be a really good fit into this lineup. God ****ing forbid.

[Enscheff]

Who do you suggest bringing in, then?

I've pushed for trades to bring in Kendrick, Phillips or Kinsler. Kendrick is clearly #1 choice, while Phillips and Kinsler would probably have to involve money and/or Uggla somehow.

Another less likely option would be a huge trade like Kimbrel for Profar or Odor from Texas. That is the ONLY kind of return worth trading Kimbrel this offseason, in my opinion.

The point is to fix 2B with a legit MLB player, or a stud young guy that is a relatively sure bet. I do not consider TLS a sure bet, and is probably not a good enough Plan A for a WS contending team with resources in place to dramatically improve the largest hole on the roster.

[Knucksie]

A lot of people (even outside Braves fans and people in the org.) thought very highly of Marte. Guess what? Some prospects bust.


Instead of getting wrapped up in the hype, try going to a game and judging for yourself. Everybody (present company included) had high hopes for Marte, earlier on, but a couple of us tried to convey impressions. I mentioned weight and conditioning as a potential problem. OP noticed a hole in his swing. So, there actually was discussion about the whole package from people, who actually saw him play. It required a little extra effort and paying attention, as opposed to pointing the browser to Fangraphs.

[clvclv]

"Nobody was even mentioning him until about month ago, and only one person was aware of him. The guy from BA, who's probably actually watched him play, had him ranked as only 14th top Braves prospect."

Wow. So you mean that no one here had ever heard of La Stella prior to a month ago?


"In terms of 'expanded knowledge,' this isn't very convincing. It's mostly college kids, spending entirely too much time on the internet and probably not enough time with female companionship."

Think we need to start checking IDs at the door???

Believe it or not, several posters here have that expanded knowledge you doubt, have seen the vast majority of prospects talked about on the board multiple times, and aren't guilty of over-hyping guys - the fact that you're not aware who they are notwithstanding, of course. Since you're in favor of stereotyping, is it safe to assume that since your screen-name is "Knucksie" that you're in the 50-60 year old range and believe that none of these young kids are ever capable of being half the player that the old-timers were?

(Sorry I wasn't able to do the cool multi-quoting thing like you did...I unfortunately know less about how to do that than I do about Braves prospects.)

[Hawk]

I'm going to agree with Knucksie here.

People were absolutely livid when Schuerholz traded Marte straight-up for Edgar Renteria (who Wren later brilliantly spun for Jair Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez [the latter subsequently translated, among others, into Nate McLouth].) Many were under the impression that Marte was going to be a real stud and, well, he never came close to even being a bench asset.

While I don't think it's fair to slot LaStella against Marte (we're talking two vastly different skill-sets,) I am amused to see people insert LaStella into their opening day lineups with such blind confidence. If this guy is good enough to cut it then why wasn't he called upon when we were in _dire_ need of a 2B'er at the end of this past season? Please don't counter with, "Because of his contract!"

The Braves are brilliant evaluators of talent, and the fact that they played Eliot Johnson and Phil Gosselin over LaStella speaks volumes to me about how they view him. That is, of course, not to say that; A) he won't be the Opening Day second baseman B) he won't be a significant part of this team in 2014.

My prediction: LaStella is traded this offseason.

[nsacpi]

I'm not counting on La Stella in particular. I just think between the in-house options (Pena, La Stella, Pastornicky, Uggla, Elliot Johnson) there is a decent chance one or a combination will do a satisfactory job. And we have the option of making a trade mid-season if none pan out. To me there is a good enough chance an in-house option will pan out to make it worth giving them a shot through the first two months of the season.