Why did Bobby Cox retire?

[Mrs. Meta]

Was he just kinda done in 2010?

I ask cuz I (I think) remember some rumor that Frank Wren was gonna force him out either way. I assume this isn't true, and would much appreciate y'alls clarification on this. Thank ya!

[bravesfanMatt]

Because he didn’t want to tarnish his image of being a good manager after his hall of famers had all left.

[CyYoung31]

Because he didn’t want to tarnish his image of being a good manager after his hall of famers had all left.

LOL, did you see the team he won 91 games with in 2010? What about the teams he won the division with in ‘04 and ‘05? After Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, he did nothing but validate his reputation.

[thewupk]

Because he was old

[zitothebrave]

Was he just kinda done in 2010?

I ask cuz I (I think) remember some rumor that Frank Wren was gonna force him out either way. I assume this isn't true, and would much appreciate y'alls clarification on this. Thank ya!

Wren wouldn't force Cox out for Fredi Gonzalez. If Wren had that much control we never would have had Fredi Gonzalez come in.

I'm pretty sure Cox leaving had a lot to do with just being old. He was 69 when he retired.

[CyYoung31]

Wren wouldn't force Cox out for Fredi Gonzalez. If Wren had that much control we never would have had Fredi Gonzalez come in.

I'm pretty sure Cox leaving had a lot to do with just being old. He was 69 when he retired.

Of course, he could have detested Wren so much he decided to just call it quits. I’m sure thethe will cook up something like that.

[thewupk]

Of course, he could have detested Wren so much he decided to just call it quits. I’m sure thethe will cook up something like that.

Wren forced Cox to retire and then forced the fanbase to watch Fredi manage the team. Horrible GM.

[zitothebrave]

LOL, did you see the team he won 91 games with in 2010? What about the teams he won the division with in ‘04 and ‘05? After Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, he did nothing but validate his reputation.

04 and 10 were pretty good teams. 04 had Drew, Jones, Jones, Furcal, Giles before he fully fell apart, an effective LaRoche/Julio platoon. And of course surprise it's the one good season of Johnny Estrada's career. Pitching was a little more harrowing, that's for sure as for starters it was basically Wright and Thomson. Thomson was an undervalued pitcher in Colorado and Texas, he was very solid for his era but his ERA never really matched his peripherals. Wright was the best creation from Cox/Mazzone. They took someone with great raw ability and got him to perform more consistently. 2010 was a great team. Pre-arm break down Hanson, pre-face bust Heyward, Wagner/Venters/Saito shutting everything down in the pen. Prado at peak form, Mac at peak form, Infante at peak form. Really the only ****s on the team were Melky and McLouth. If McLouth hadn't just magically forgotten how to play baseball when he was traded here, or if Melky just took his roids one year sooner, the 2010 team would have really been epic.

People forget that 2010-2013 or so were all supposed to be great years. Braves had a lot of players coming up and the vets were all guys in their mid-late 20s. Aside from Chipper, Lowe, and Hudson we didn't have many old starters. Most of our starters were younger. THat being said, Fredi is not a good manager, and that was obvious.

[AerchAngel]

I didn't think he was a good baseball coach at all, 14 pennants and only 1 WS, says it all.

[thewupk]

I didn't think he was a good baseball coach at all, 14 pennants and only 1 WS, says it all.

Managers don't win games in baseball, players do. Managers are there to manage personalities. Totally different than football and basketball.

[bravesfanMatt]

Managers don't win games in baseball, players do. Managers are there to manage personalities. Totally different than football and basketball.

Serious?

[DirkPiggler]

Managers don't win games in baseball, players do. Managers are there to manage personalities. Totally different than football and basketball.

Managers don't win games with their decisions, but they damn sure lose them.

The best ones manage players, as you said, and avoid making dumb ass moves such as leaving the best closer in baseball in the bullpen to watch a scrub serve up a BP fastball to another scrub to end the season.

[thewupk]

Serious?

of course. baseball is a team sport with individual performances. there really is no team work among players like in basketball and football. the closest thing you get is the battery. there are no schemes or rotations to help win games like you see in other sports.



Managers don't win games with their decisions, but they damn sure lose them.

The best ones manage players, as you said, and avoid making dumb ass moves such as leaving the best closer in baseball in the bullpen to watch a scrub serve up a BP fastball to another scrub to end the season.

Very few managers are bad enough to literally cost you game after game. One of the primary reasons managers are there is as a scapegoat for the GM assembling a horrible team.

[AerchAngel]

Managers don't win games in baseball, players do. Managers are there to manage personalities. Totally different than football and basketball.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings my friend, but he sucked as a baseball coach and I said as much on the Scout board and received my only ban ever because of it by that piece of crap Bill Shanks.

I was tired us winning the 162 season and pissing on the pot in the post season because of him. He sucked, period.

[zitothebrave]

Managers don't win games in baseball, players do. Managers are there to manage personalities. Totally different than football and basketball.

But managers can make crucial mistakes that cost games.

Remember when Fredi was platooning Heyward and Reed Johnson?

[zitothebrave]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings my friend, but he sucked as a baseball coach and I said as much on the Scout board and received my only ban ever because of it by that piece of crap Bill Shanks.

I was tired us winning the 162 season and pissing on the pot in the post season because of him. He sucked, period.

That's not even remotely fair to say. Some managers are better at managing the long game. And over the course of a season the results show it. Cox for example had a knack of knowing when a pitcher didn't have it. I have no other explanation for why no pitcher left the Braves and played better afterwards. Even looking at someone we let go of young enough in Millwood, his best season was as a Brave.

I think the playoff shortcomings came because he did face guys who were tactically better and he faced just flat out better teams. After 96, the Braves didn't have a team very often who was close to a World Series winner aside from luck.

I also think the Braves were hurt because generally their best pitchers weren't power pitchers. And I think generally speaking high leverage situations favor power pitchers.

[thewupk]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings my friend, but he sucked as a baseball coach and I said as much on the Scout board and received my only ban ever because of it by that piece of crap Bill Shanks.

I was tired us winning the 162 season and pissing on the pot in the post season because of him. He sucked, period.

my feeling aren't hurt at all. you could be referring to Bobby or anyone else for all I can and my opinion is the same.

[thewupk]

But managers can make crucial mistakes that cost games.

Remember when Fredi was platooning Heyward and Reed Johnson?

No I don't remember that

[Knucksie]

Wren wouldn't force Cox out for Fredi Gonzalez. If Wren had that much control we never would have had Fredi Gonzalez come in.

I'm pretty sure Cox leaving had a lot to do with just being old. He was 69 when he retired.

Cox had A LOT to do with Fredi becoming the replacement, simply because Fredi had been a Cox lieutenant. Plus, Fredi had to get bounced from Florida. Cox called up and put Marlins management on blast, but it should have been obvious who the next Braves manager was going to be.

[bravesfanMatt]

162 game season. Bobby was supreme. Playoffs. He was continuely out classed. He was very by the book, use your gut and stay with what got you there kind of manager.

[Knucksie]

I think the playoff shortcomings came because he did face guys who were tactically better and he faced just flat out better teams. After 96, the Braves didn't have a team very often who was close to a World Series winner aside from luck.


Can't think of anyone who believes that the '91 Twins and '92 Blue Jays were better teams than the Braves. The '93 Braves were better than the 2 previous rosters (Maddux, Crime Dog). The '96 Yankees didn't exactly outclass either.

[thewupk]

Can't think of anyone who believes that the '91 Twins and '92 Blue Jays were better teams than the Braves. The '93 Braves were better than the 2 previous rosters (Maddux, Crime Dog). The '96 Yankees didn't exactly outclass either.

While some of that is true. Is it Bobby's fault Lonnie Smith forgot how to run the bases or Wholers blew it against Leyritz?

[AerchAngel]

162 game season. Bobby was supreme. Playoffs. He was continuely out classed. He was very by the book, use your gut and stay with what got you there kind of manager.

Why we lost all of them.

We had a better team most of the time and a way better pitching staff. He sucked as a manager. If we had someone like LaDoucha or Scoscia I guarantee we would have at least 3 or 4 more WS wins.

I got banned by Bill Skanks and Mike because I tore into Bobby on several occasions during that time.

I was banned from saying Bobby Cocksucker, Booby Cox and Booby Cocks.

[AerchAngel]

While some of that is true. Is it Bobby's fault Lonnie Smith forgot how to run the bases or Wholers blew it against Leyritz?

SSS

[Southcack77]

162 game season. Bobby was supreme. Playoffs. He was continuely out classed. He was very by the book, use your gut and stay with what got you there kind of manager.

And pitching coaches are why major pitchers aren't good and hitting coaches are why major league hitters don't get hits and bullpen coaches are why relievers walk people.

Baseball is almost entirely about players executing against one another in one on one situations. That's it.

I hate the Braves didn't win more WS during their window, but that window closed a lot earlier than Cox's tenure did even though the Braves continued to win division championships.

[DirkPiggler]

of course. baseball is a team sport with individual performances. there really is no team work among players like in basketball and football. the closest thing you get is the battery. there are no schemes or rotations to help win games like you see in other sports.




Very few managers are bad enough to literally cost you game after game. One of the primary reasons managers are there is as a scapegoat for the GM assembling a horrible team.

Fredi had to be on that short list.

I wouldn't put Snitker there yet.

[jpx7]

He was 69 when he retired.

https://i.imgur.com/CqUuU5N.gif

[VirginiaBrave]

I think overall there were several factors. Bobby's age, Bobby's wife was ready for him to stay home, and very simply Bobby and Wren didn't see eye to eye. Rumors say it started over Smoltz's and Glavine's exits.

[DirkPiggler]

I think overall there were several factors. Bobby's age, Bobby's wife was ready for him to stay home, and very simply Bobby and Wren didn't see eye to eye. Rumors say it started over Smoltz's and Glavine's exits.

Did she get her concealed carry permit?

[thewupk]

Did she get her concealed carry permit?

dang son

[jsebe10]

I think overall there were several factors. Bobby's age, Bobby's wife was ready for him to stay home, and very simply Bobby and Wren didn't see eye to eye. Rumors say it started over Smoltz's and Glavine's exits.

Glavine yea but Smoltz could barely pick up a baseball when he left...LaRussa and Tito found that out quick too

[zitothebrave]

Can't think of anyone who believes that the '91 Twins and '92 Blue Jays were better teams than the Braves. The '93 Braves were better than the 2 previous rosters (Maddux, Crime Dog). The '96 Yankees didn't exactly outclass either.

Well, is it Cox's fault that the Twins were allowed to manipulate the air conditioning and Kent Hrbek got an out that was illegal. In a game that could have resulted in a BRaves win which would have meant the BRaves would have clinched at home.

1992 the Jays were 100% better than the Braves. Their pitching was a tad bit worse but not that much. Braves were a product of a weak NL at the start of that decade. While the Jays had to contest with A's, Orioles, etc. the Braves had a much easier time in the NL.

1996 BRaves were better than the Yankees. Wholers serving up a meatball to a bum was demoralizing.

But again your case against Cox choking in the playoffs is basically a few attempts. Braves conversely were worse than the Indians in 95, a lot worse. As far as 93 vs. 92 or 91 you're mostly correct, that what the Braves were positive because of McGriff and Maddux they were negative in Pendleton falling a ton, and "down years" from Smoltz and Glavine. They should have beaten the Phillies, but **** happens. And the main perpetrator of that **** was Curt Schilling. Who is a beast in the postseason.

[CyYoung31]

04 and 10 were pretty good teams. 04 had Drew, Jones, Jones, Furcal, Giles before he fully fell apart, an effective LaRoche/Julio platoon. And of course surprise it's the one good season of Johnny Estrada's career. Pitching was a little more harrowing, that's for sure as for starters it was basically Wright and Thomson. Thomson was an undervalued pitcher in Colorado and Texas, he was very solid for his era but his ERA never really matched his peripherals. Wright was the best creation from Cox/Mazzone. They took someone with great raw ability and got him to perform more consistently. 2010 was a great team. Pre-arm break down Hanson, pre-face bust Heyward, Wagner/Venters/Saito shutting everything down in the pen. Prado at peak form, Mac at peak form, Infante at peak form. Really the only ****s on the team were Melky and McLouth. If McLouth hadn't just magically forgotten how to play baseball when he was traded here, or if Melky just took his roids one year sooner, the 2010 team would have really been epic.

People forget that 2010-2013 or so were all supposed to be great years. Braves had a lot of players coming up and the vets were all guys in their mid-late 20s. Aside from Chipper, Lowe, and Hudson we didn't have many old starters. Most of our starters were younger. THat being said, Fredi is not a good manager, and that was obvious.

I’m talking about the 2010 team he ended up making the playoffs with. That lineup was hot garbage, and the team was missing some key pieces in the bullpen like Saito and eventually Wagner. It may be the best bullpen we’ve ever had though. Also, our rotation was Hudson, Hanson, and a Derek Lowe hot streak.

‘04 was a great team, but it had a lot to do with career years and flashes in the pan. Chipper had the worst year of his career. ‘05 was pretty meh when you look back on it.

[zitothebrave]

I’m talking about the 2010 team he ended up making the playoffs with. That lineup was hot garbage, and the team was missing some key pieces in the bullpen like Saito and eventually Wagner. It may be the best bullpen we’ve ever had though. Also, our rotation was Hudson, Hanson, and a Derek Lowe hot streak.

‘04 was a great team, but it had a lot to do with career years and flashes in the pan. Chipper had the worst year of his career. ‘05 was pretty meh when you look back on it.

05 was a pretty meh team aside from the stars. Andruw, Smoltz, Huddy, all were stars. Giles, Chipper when healthy, Furcal and the half season of Francouer pretty much rounded out our offense. 05 was the year where everyone assumed the Braves could do no wrong because of guys like Jorge Sosa becoming flukes. Really set up our 06 failure, when we had nothing behind Hudson and Smoltz. Our offense was mostly fine in 06. Our failure was our pitching. .

[Knucksie]

Well, is it Cox's fault that the Twins were allowed to manipulate the air conditioning and Kent Hrbek got an out that was illegal. In a game that could have resulted in a BRaves win which would have meant the BRaves would have clinched at home.

1992 the Jays were 100% better than the Braves. Their pitching was a tad bit worse but not that much. Braves were a product of a weak NL at the start of that decade. While the Jays had to contest with A's, Orioles, etc. the Braves had a much easier time in the NL.

1996 BRaves were better than the Yankees. Wholers serving up a meatball to a bum was demoralizing.

But again your case against Cox choking in the playoffs is basically a few attempts. Braves conversely were worse than the Indians in 95, a lot worse. As far as 93 vs. 92 or 91 you're mostly correct, that what the Braves were positive because of McGriff and Maddux they were negative in Pendleton falling a ton, and "down years" from Smoltz and Glavine. They should have beaten the Phillies, but **** happens. And the main perpetrator of that **** was Curt Schilling. Who is a beast in the postseason.

I didn't mention anything specifically in this thread about Cox in the playoffs. That must've been somebody else.

[DirkPiggler]

dang son

I've spent a little too much time on Woopig.net.

[CyYoung31]

Wilbo and Gatom would’ve loved this thread.

[Julio3000]

He wanted to spend more time with Keith Lockhart.

[VirginiaBrave]

When it comes to playoffs I only feel like the Braves failed in 1996 and '97. But it is undeniable that Cox got bested a lot in close tight games. Mainly because Bobby had a formula that worked a lot over 162, but he was reluctant to gamble and it cost him in a short series.

[DirkPiggler]

When it comes to playoffs I only feel like the Braves failed in 1996 and '97. But it is undeniable that Cox got bested a lot in close tight games. Mainly because Bobby had a formula that worked a lot over 162, but he was reluctant to gamble and it cost him in a short series.

Eric Gregg failed in '97.

RIP (rest in punishment)

[zitothebrave]

I didn't mention anything specifically in this thread about Cox in the playoffs. That must've been somebody else.

Can't think of anyone who believes that the '91 Twins and '92 Blue Jays were better teams than the Braves. The '93 Braves were better than the 2 previous rosters (Maddux, Crime Dog). The '96 Yankees didn't exactly outclass either.

[Southcack77]

Can't think of anyone who believes that the '91 Twins and '92 Blue Jays were better teams than the Braves. The '93 Braves were better than the 2 previous rosters (Maddux, Crime Dog). The '96 Yankees didn't exactly outclass either.

You’ve never met anyone who thought the 92 and 93 world champions were better than the Braves?

Strange.

[CyYoung31]

You’ve never met anyone who thought the 92 and 93 world champions were better than the Braves?

Strange.

That’s a quote from Knucksie.

[VirginiaBrave]

Eric Gregg failed in '97.

RIP (rest in punishment)

Eric Gregg shouldn't have mattered, because it shouldn't have went seven.

[Knucksie]

Can't think of anyone who believes that the '91 Twins and '92 Blue Jays were better teams than the Braves. The '93 Braves were better than the 2 previous rosters (Maddux, Crime Dog). The '96 Yankees didn't exactly outclass either.

Yeah, so? That was about the rosters, not decisions that Cox made.

[Knucksie]

You’ve never met anyone who thought the 92 and 93 world champions were better than the Braves?

Strange.

The weakness on the '92 Braves team was closer. That's why they lost. I never said that the '93 Braves were better than the WS champions. Just that they were better than the 2 previous Braves trams from '91, '92.

If you're going to call me out, don't quote me out of context. This board already has enough of that already. Of course baby Braves fans (of which there are many) are going to claim that they got beat by better teams to justify losing. Either of those first 2 were very winnable.

Want to know what was brought to my attention during early 90's? "Buffalo Bills of baseball." This to somebody who lives there.

[Southcack77]

The weakness on the '92 Braves team was closer. That's why they lost. I never said that the '93 Braves were better than the WS champions. Just that they were better than the 2 previous Braves trams from '91, '92.

If you're going to call me out, don't quote me out of context. This board already has enough of that already. Of course baby Braves fans (of which there are many) are going to claim that they got beat by better teams to justify losing. Either of those first 2 were very winnable.

Want to know what was brought to my attention during early 90's? "Buffalo Bills of baseball." This to somebody who lives there.

To be honest, I didn’t quote you at all.

And I didn’t take that post out of context because I quoted it in its entirety.

I was reacting to whomever said they’d never met anyone who thought the Braves were worse than the Blue Jays.

IMO, the Blue Jays were the better team.

[CyYoung31]

Want to know what was brought to my attention during early 90's? "Buffalo Bills of baseball." This to somebody who lives there.

No wonder you mad.

[CyYoung31]

To be honest, I didn’t quote you at all.

And I didn’t take that post out of context because I quoted it in its entirety.

I was reacting to whomever said they’d never met anyone who thought the Braves were worse than the Blue Jays.

IMO, the Blue Jays were the better team.

Actually, you did quote him because that was his quote.

[Southcack77]

I quoted zitothebrave as far as I know.

Nonetheless, I think the Blue Jays were the better team.

It seems like some people said mean things to Knucksie awhile back. I don’t condone that.

[Knucksie]

No wonder you mad.

Not mad at all. Besides, '95 put a stop to that once and for all.

[CyYoung31]

I quoted zitothebrave as far as I know.

Nonetheless, I think the Blue Jays were the better team.

It seems like some people said mean things to Knucksie awhile back. I don’t condone that.

Go back a page.

My last 3 posts have now pointed out that it was Knucksie’s quote. I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you. You’re not terribly important to me.

[Knucksie]

Go back a page.

My last 3 posts have now pointed out that it was Knucksie’s quote. I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you. You’re not terribly important to me.

The arrows next to the quotes make it even easier! : D

Double thanks, btw. Only expected this to be 1 or 2 post banter with Zeets.

[Southcack77]

You’re not terribly important to me.

that’s disconcerting.

Perhaps we’ve gotten off in the wrong foot.

I did in fact understand your helpful comment the first time.

However, after your post Knucksie appeared offended that I’d quoted his post out of context.

I was attempting to clear up that I had no such intent because to the best of my knowledge at the time I was responding to zitothebrave.

In fact, I never read knucksie’s full post and am not sure how a portion of it found itself in someone else’s post.

Nonetheless, I gathered that Knucksie did in fact believe that the 1992 Braves were better than the 1992 Blue Jays — except for the bullpen which is why they lost — and I do disagree with that opinion. Respectfully.

It’s neither here nor there but I didn’t intend to compare the 1993 Braves to the 1993 Blue Jays but I’ll live with that having been my fault for not writing clearly.

I do sympathize with his experience of mean people comparing the Braves to the Bills. I also had that experience. It was unpleasant but I knew it was over one night as I smoked weed with an Indians fan and watched the Braves win the 95 series.

Now, I do wish you the best going forward and hope you are making the most of your time in this life.

[zitothebrave]

Of course baby Braves fans (of which there are many) are going to claim that they got beat by better teams to justify losing. Either of those first 2 were very winnable.

I won't explicitly argue the Twins because there was a lot out of the Braves control from the outside circumstances to Kirby Puckett putting in the game of his life in game 6.

But let's talk Toronto, in 1992, Toronto had the second best offense in baseball, behind only the Athletics, and had really good pitching. Were they as good as the Braves? Nope of course not, but the Braves offense wasn't anywhere near close to the Jays. In 1992 the 2 Jays were the complete team. They were the Indians last year. They were a team who had good pitching (great situationally) and amazing offense. Juan Guzman was a beast that year, he should have been in the MVP running behind Clemens, Mussina, and Appier. But the voters were dumb as **** and somehow Eckersley won it.

[Southcack77]

I won't explicitly argue the Twins because there was a lot out of the Braves control from the outside circumstances to Kirby Puckett putting in the game of his life in game 6.

But let's talk Toronto, in 1992, Toronto had the second best offense in baseball, behind only the Athletics, and had really good pitching. Were they as good as the Braves? Nope of course not, but the Braves offense wasn't anywhere near close to the Jays. In 1992 the 2 Jays were the complete team. They were the Indians last year. They were a team who had good pitching (great situationally) and amazing offense. Juan Guzman was a beast that year, he should have been in the MVP running behind Clemens, Mussina, and Appier. But the voters were dumb as **** and somehow Eckersley won it.

David Cone, Jimmy Key, stacked bullpen. Jack Morris as fourth starter.

Their staff was stacked.

Alomar, Olerud, Winfield, Carter, great year by Candy Maldonado. Devon White.

It was great team that cemented legacy by repeating in 1993.

Losing to Phillies the following year was much more questionable.

[CyYoung31]

Bobby also won a division with the Blue Jays 7 years earlier.

[Runnin]

Because he was old

I believe his knees were both really hurting him.

[Knucksie]

that’s disconcerting.

Perhaps we’ve gotten off in the wrong foot.

I did in fact understand your helpful comment the first time.

However, after your post Knucksie appeared offended that I’d quoted his post out of context.

I was attempting to clear up that I had no such intent because to the best of my knowledge at the time I was responding to zitothebrave.

In fact, I never read knucksie’s full post and am not sure how a portion of it found itself in someone else’s post.

Nonetheless, I gathered that Knucksie did in fact believe that the 1992 Braves were better than the 1992 Blue Jays — except for the bullpen which is why they lost — and I do disagree with that opinion. Respectfully.

It’s neither here nor there but I didn’t intend to compare the 1993 Braves to the 1993 Blue Jays but I’ll live with that having been my fault for not writing clearly.

I do sympathize with his experience of mean people comparing the Braves to the Bills. I also had that experience. It was unpleasant but I knew it was over one night as I smoked weed with an Indians fan and watched the Braves win the 95 series.

Now, I do wish you the best going forward and hope you are making the most of your time in this life.

You were offered a graceful exit, then just keep running your mouth off. Now, could you please kindly STFU?

[Southcack77]

You were offered a graceful exit, then just keep running your mouth off. Now, could you please kindly STFU?

I did not intend to offend you. I am sorry.

[CyYoung31]

I was just goofing with you, Southcack77.

[zitothebrave]

Losing to Phillies the following year was much more questionable.

Yeah, but to be fair 2 of the 4 losses were Curt Schilling just being curt schilling. Dude is a beast in the playoffs. If he didn't play for the sorry ass phillies most of his career and for the Braves instead, we'd be lauding over him like we do Smoltz. Possibly more because he was a better overall pitcher than Smoltz.

[zitothebrave]

I did not intend to offend you. I am sorry.

Knucksie is just trolling. Don't apologize to trolls. It makes them think they're good at it.

[Southcack77]

Yeah, but to be fair 2 of the 4 losses were Curt Schilling just being curt schilling. Dude is a beast in the playoffs. If he didn't play for the sorry ass phillies most of his career and for the Braves instead, we'd be lauding over him like we do Smoltz. Possibly more because he was a better overall pitcher than Smoltz.

I'm going to have a hard time getting over you saying that about Smoltz.

I concede that Schilling was really good, but that's a bridge too far. I don't care if was true or not (don't think it really was but numbers and stuff).

[thewupk]

I'm going to have a hard time getting over you saying that about Smoltz.

I concede that Schilling was really good, but that's a bridge too far. I don't care if was true or not (don't think it really was but numbers and stuff).

Schilling was a HOF level talent. Put him on a good Braves team for a decade plus and he would of been thought of the same as Smoltzie

[Southcack77]

Schilling was a HOF level talent. Put him on a good Braves team for a decade plus and he would of been thought of the same as Smoltzie

I'm sure I would have liked him better if he was a Brave. But he wasn't, so I don't.

I wouldn't fight him being in the HOF much. I think you could argue that he and Mussina and Glavine and Smoltz could all be let in or all left out. 8 from that era is a lot. Just eyeballing things, I'm not sure who the next guy after them would be.

Kershaw maybe. I don't think Halladay gets there.

[thewupk]

I'm sure I would have liked him better if he was a Brave. But he wasn't, so I don't.

I wouldn't fight him being in the HOF much. I think you could argue that he and Mussina and Glavine and Smoltz could all be let in or all left out. 8 from that era is a lot. Just eyeballing things, I'm not sure who the next guy after them would be.

Kershaw maybe. I don't think Halladay gets there.

They all deserve to be in but Glavine was the worst of the group. He's in over them for 1 reason.

And Verlander/Sabathia are next in line assuming Halladay doesn't get the sympathy vote.

[Southcack77]

They all deserve to be in but Glavine was the worst of the group. He's in over them for 1 reason.

And Verlander/Sabathia are next in line assuming Halladay doesn't get the sympathy vote.

Well three reasons: 300 Ws, and 2 Cy Youngs. Well four: for some reason he gets a lot of credit in the media for Game 6 of the 95 WS, which is undeniably silly.

I agree he's probably the weakest of the group. I think his inclusion is maybe Mussina's strongest argument.

[Southcack77]

I have Sabathia and Halladay as NOs.

Verlander, I'd have as a maybe pending the final leg kick of his career.