This is where our hard earned money goes.

[thethe]

http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/10/25953-mother-of-15-insists-somebody-needs-to-pay-for-all-my-children/

[goldfly]

it also goes here: Average American Families Pays $6K a Year in Big Business Subsidies

http://billmoyers.com/2013/09/24/average-american-family-pays-6k-a-year-in-subsidies-to-big-business/


i really don't get why people get that mad about ghetto people choosing to live in **** holes we pay for

and then don't get furious over people with more money than they can count taking money from them


really baffles my brain

[thethe]

First off, I have repeatedly railed on the wealthy elite of this nation screwing the middle class.

Secondly, the woman in the video is exactly what is wrong with our nation. No indviduals have personal accountability. She asks, "Who is going to pay for all of her children?". Sure, no reason to get mad at something like that.

[yeezus]

Rich people take our money and milk the government titty more than poor people do.

[yeezus]

First off, I have repeatedly railed on the wealthy elite of this nation screwing the middle class.

Secondly, the woman in the video is exactly what is wrong with our nation. No indviduals have personal accountability. She asks, "Who is going to pay for all of her children?". Sure, no reason to get mad at something like that.

I agree, I can be mad at both.
Who's going to pay for your children? Who the hell told you to have children when you couldn't afford it?

[goldfly]

First off, I have repeatedly railed on the wealthy elite of this nation screwing the middle class.

Secondly, the woman in the video is exactly what is wrong with our nation. No indviduals have personal accountability. She asks, "Who is going to pay for all of her children?". Sure, no reason to get mad at something like that.


oddly enough

i would rather help those kids she doesn't take care of than let them struggle

it isn't like those kids had the choice or not to be born to a ****ty human being


weird thought process


that example is also why we should be giving out birth control as much as we can and make abortion easier too but whatever

[thethe]

oddly enough

i would rather help those kids she doesn't take care of than let them struggle

it isn't like those kids had the choice or not to be born to a ****ty human being


weird thought process


that example is also why we should be giving out birth control as much as we can and make abortion easier too but whatever

The issue is not whether or not to help the kids. Obviously, those children should be taken away from their disgusting mother. The issue is that there are too many of these lowlifes that we end up paying for and since they know the safety net is out there they don't need to be responsible.

[Bj1133]

and make abortion easier too but whatever

Speaking of sh*tty human beings

[goldfly]

Speaking of sh*tty human beings

uh, what?

[goldfly]

The issue is not whether or not to help the kids. Obviously, those children should be taken away from their disgusting mother. The issue is that there are too many of these lowlifes that we end up paying for and since they know the safety net is out there they don't need to be responsible.

so you are saying this is the rule

not the exception

[thethe]

so you are saying this is the rule

not the exception

Is that what I said?

[goldfly]

Is that what I said?

not sure

that is why i asked

[thethe]

not sure

that is why i asked

It wasn't.

[goldfly]

then i don't get why we are getting outraged


i could understand this thread getting mad about keeping funding going for the F22 more than this then

[thethe]

then i don't get why we are getting outraged


i could understand this thread getting mad about keeping funding going for the F22 more than this then

We are getting outraged because this like every other government program is being expanded and the middle class who work are taking the brunt of it.

[goldfly]

uh

sure

[thethe]

I'm sure it would be nice to travel all the time like you. I'm still convinced that you are somehow wealthy either by your own doing or inheritance. However, those of us that have to work are pissed off that our money is going to feed more and more government.

[Bj1133]

uh, what?

Abortion - still can't believe people are ok with this, let alone wanting more of it.

[thethe]

Abortion - still can't believe people are ok with this, let alone wanting more of it.

The way I look at it is that I would never want to be involved in a relationship where an abortion happens but I have no right to tell someone who might be in a rough spot that they can't have one.

In this situation, the whole world would be better of had this woman never been allowed to have children.

[yeezus]

The way I look at it is that I would never want to be involved in a relationship where an abortion happens but I have no right to tell someone who might be in a rough spot that they can't have one.

In this situation, the whole world would be better of had this woman never been allowed to have children.

Pretty much my thoughts. I'm not religious, but I would never personally want my girlfriend to get an abortion, even though I'm far from ready for a kid. However, I'm not going to tell someone else what's right for them. It's against my morals to do it, but it isn't for everyone.

[Gary82]

The issue is not whether or not to help the kids. Obviously, those children should be taken away from their disgusting mother. The issue is that there are too many of these lowlifes that we end up paying for and since they know the safety net is out there they don't need to be responsible.

What's your plan then? Shoot 'em in the face?

[Gary82]

It wasn't.


Secondly, the woman in the video is exactly what is wrong with our nation. No indviduals have personal accountability. She asks, "Who is going to pay for all of her children?". Sure, no reason to get mad at something like that.

It certainly reads like you're establishing this as the rule, not the exception. I'm an individual. Are you saying I don't have personal accountability?

[Gary82]

that example is also why we should be giving out birth control as much as we can and make abortion easier too but whatever

Agreed. Birth control needs to be more accessible, as well as the option for abortion.

[cajunrevenge]

For anyone feeling sorry for these people I am accepting donations of which a portion will go to helping the kids. (like 2%)

[Tapate50]

Agreed. Birth control needs to be more accessible

Birth control is very accessible, but you have to prioritize it and make a concious decision to go get it. Clinic will give you 90 days worth and it isn't more than about 10 bucks a month, plus condoms can be obtained at any 7-11 for 3 bucks. Free clinic also gives out a grocery bag of rubbers for anyone that asks.

It isn't about accessibility. It is about realizing how important it is, and abstaining from something that could cripple you financially or taking the steps to prevent that.

[Krgrecw]

The answer isn't more abortions or easier access to birth control the solution is to teach the girls to respect themselves and not open Thier legs to every damn kid. That will never happen so this problem will never be corrected.
I imagine the amount of abortions giving to inner city black girls is barely even measurable so more abortions wouldn't help. I don't think easier access to birth control would be much help. These people aren't exactly contributors to society and don't realize how hard being a mother is and the value of education. When your 18, can't speak correct English, have no father figure, none of your friends are succeeding in life or even have much of a future, your culture idolizes athletes and hip hop music, no one works, half your friends are preggo and you see how easy is to get assistance I imagine chances are you don't think about wearing condoms.

The only way to really fix this epidemic is to not let these people have more babies. You have to stop the cycle not hope to lessen it or think that these people know what's right for them.

[zitothebrave]

The answer isn't more abortions or easier access to birth control the solution is to teach the girls to respect themselves and not open Thier legs to every damn kid. That will never happen so this problem will never be corrected.
I imagine the amount of abortions giving to inner city black girls is barely even measurable so more abortions wouldn't help. I don't think easier access to birth control would be much help. These people aren't exactly contributors to society and don't realize how hard being a mother is and the value of education. When your 18, can't speak correct English, have no father figure, none of your friends are succeeding in life or even have much of a future, your culture idolizes athletes and hip hop music, no one works, half your friends are preggo and you see how easy is to get assistance I imagine chances are you don't think about wearing condoms.

The only way to really fix this epidemic is to not let these people have more babies. You have to stop the cycle not hope to lessen it or think that these people know what's right for them.

So women who have sex don't respect themselves?

[Tapate50]

So women who have sex don't respect themselves?

:facepalm:

[zitothebrave]

Birth control is very accessible, but you have to prioritize it and make a concious decision to go get it. Clinic will give you 90 days worth and it isn't more than about 10 bucks a month, plus condoms can be obtained at any 7-11 for 3 bucks. Free clinic also gives out a grocery bag of rubbers for anyone that asks.

It isn't about accessibility. It is about realizing how important it is, and abstaining from something that could cripple you financially or taking the steps to prevent that.

Ummmmmm yeah so you really don't know too much about costs of BC then huh. While you are right about the importance of teaching responsibility.

[thethe]

Get a job with good benefits and you can get BC for cheap rates.

If you don't have a job that benefits then you really should be wrapping it up. Again, no personal accountability.

[Bj1133]

Get a job with good benefits and you can get BC for cheap rates.

If you don't have a job that benefits then you really should be wrapping it up. Again, no personal accountability.

Surely it can't be that simple.....oh wait, yea it is

[zitothebrave]

Get a job with good benefits and you can get BC for cheap rates.

If you don't have a job that benefits then you really should be wrapping it up. Again, no personal accountability.

http://www.thecitrusreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/7Nanx.gif

[Bj1133]

http://www.thecitrusreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/7Nanx.gif

Getting a job is not that difficult - getting a good job with benefits is the tricky part, but like thethe said, condoms are cheap and effective alternatives to BC

[zitothebrave]

Getting a job is not that difficult - getting a good job with benefits is the tricky part, but like thethe said, condoms are cheap and effective alternatives to BC

Condoms aren't that cheap, and aren't the most effective BC either.

Divert a small amount of funds from killing people overseas to taking care of the citizens who live here, and it would do us wonders in stopping these things.

[ESP47]

Condoms aren't that cheap, and aren't the most effective BC either.

Divert a small amount of funds from killing people overseas to taking care of the citizens who live here, and it would do us wonders in stopping these things.

Condoms are free at clinics.

Whats a more effective form of birth control....asking the girl if she's on the pill or had the shot...or strapping a condom on and knowing you're almost 100% protected if used correctly?

[Bj1133]

Condoms aren't that cheap, and aren't the most effective BC either.

Didn't say they were the most effective, but they are certainly better than raw dogging it.

As far as getting condoms, you don't have to actually purchase them. Go to any clinic or even student services office on a college campus and they are free

[Gary82]

The answer isn't more abortions or easier access to birth control the solution is to teach the girls to respect themselves and not open Thier legs to every damn kid. That will never happen so this problem will never be corrected.
I imagine the amount of abortions giving to inner city black girls is barely even measurable so more abortions wouldn't help. I don't think easier access to birth control would be much help. These people aren't exactly contributors to society and don't realize how hard being a mother is and the value of education. When your 18, can't speak correct English, have no father figure, none of your friends are succeeding in life or even have much of a future, your culture idolizes athletes and hip hop music, no one works, half your friends are preggo and you see how easy is to get assistance I imagine chances are you don't think about wearing condoms.

The only way to really fix this epidemic is to not let these people have more babies. You have to stop the cycle not hope to lessen it or think that these people know what's right for them.

First of all, let's not pin this all on women. Protection and responsibility is just as much a guy's responsibility as it is a woman's.

Secondly, are you suggesting the government should step in on people's personal lives and control how many kids they have? Libertarians and liberals would **** a brick.

[zitothebrave]

Condoms are free at clinics.

Whats a more effective form of birth control....asking the girl if she's on the pill or had the shot...or strapping a condom on and knowing you're almost 100% protected if used correctly?

Being in a relationship with a girl and knowing she's on BC.

I'm not advocating against condoms I just think both parties should be smart, not relying heavily on one or the other.

[thethe]

http://www.thecitrusreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/7Nanx.gif

I got my job easily out of college. Then I went back to school...got a 3.9 GPA in my accounting courses and now work for one of the largest companies in the world.

It was pretty easy for me.

[Tapate50]

Ummmmmm yeah so you really don't know too much about costs of BC then huh. While you are right about the importance of teaching responsibility.

Free clinics will give BC. It isn't free every single time, but to start it is. Condoms can be had for free lots of places.

Like I said, it can be had but it isn't made a priority.

[zitothebrave]

Didn't say they were the most effective, but they are certainly better than raw dogging it.

As far as getting condoms, you don't have to actually purchase them. Go to any clinic or even student services office on a college campus and they are free

And what if you have a larger than normal schlong, don't believe they give out free Magnums at the clinic. Again not saying condoms are expensive or anything (if you can't afford to throw a few bucks on the side you probably shouldn't be having sex) but making BC and healthcare more accessible is a much better option for these issues than hoping people change their core behavior.

[Julio3000]

It's quite reasonable to object to the lady's statement, and her choices. It's another thing to extrapolate too much from the example.

[thethe]

Condoms aren't that cheap, and aren't the most effective BC either.

Divert a small amount of funds from killing people overseas to taking care of the citizens who live here, and it would do us wonders in stopping these things.

We spend enough money social welfare systems here already. Just tax people less if you are going to pull back on defense spending (which we should do). Don't give anymore free money out.

[thethe]

And what if you have a larger than normal schlong, don't believe they give out free Magnums at the clinic. Again not saying condoms are expensive or anything (if you can't afford to throw a few bucks on the side you probably shouldn't be having sex) but making BC and healthcare more accessible is a much better option for these issues than hoping people change their core behavior.

You get a point for using schlong!

[Gary82]

I got my job easily out of college. Then I went back to school...got a 3.9 GPA in my accounting courses and now work for one of the largest companies in the world.

It was pretty easy for me.

Yeah, all you unemployed people are just ****ing lazy. It's so easy.

[zitothebrave]

Free clinics will give BC. It isn't free every single time, but to start it is. Condoms can be had for free lots of places.

Like I said, it can be had but it isn't made a priority.

I also presume the prescription that's required to get free BC is free as well? Free visit from a doctor/gyno.

http://i.imgur.com/Z2VNx.jpg

[thethe]

Yeah, all you unemployed people are just ****ing lazy. It's so easy.

Its easy if you work hard or if one generation makes a sacrifice. Nobody wants to do that. Eveyrone wants everything handed to them and with our current welfare system they are getting just enough handed to them to make it an easier decision to not try as hard.

[zitothebrave]

I got my job easily out of college. Then I went back to school...got a 3.9 GPA in my accounting courses and now work for one of the largest companies in the world.

It was pretty easy for me.

Congrats. I know plenty of people who struggled getting a job out of college and plenty who got thtem easily. SO I thinkthe I got a job anyone can line is pretty weak. Like Bj said, getting a job is easy getting a good job isn't.

[zitothebrave]

Its easy if you work hard or if one generation makes a sacrifice. Nobody wants to do that. Eveyrone wants everything handed to them and with our current welfare system they are getting just enough handed to them to make it an easier decision to not try as hard.

So if you fail it's because you didn't try, not because of anything else. Teh lulz.

Hey you you didn't get a job, your or your parents suck!

Hey you you died from cancer, why didn't you just try harder like the people who beat it!

[Gary82]

Its easy if you work hard or if one generation makes a sacrifice. Nobody wants to do that. Eveyrone wants everything handed to them and with our current welfare system they are getting just enough handed to them to make it an easier decision to not try as hard.

That is bull****. Absolute bull****.

[Julio3000]

I got my job easily out of college. Then I went back to school...got a 3.9 GPA in my accounting courses and now work for one of the largest companies in the world.

It was pretty easy for me.

It's pretty easy and tempting to apply your personal experience to the rest of the world." I got a job, so it should be easy for everyone else." " I grew up poor, so poverty should not be an obstacle for anyone else."

It's a matter of perspective—it reminds me of the older folks who wonder why seatbelts are mandatory, since they obviously lived through un unbelted childhood.

[thethe]

Congrats. I know plenty of people who struggled getting a job out of college and plenty who got thtem easily. SO I thinkthe I got a job anyone can line is pretty weak. Like Bj said, getting a job is easy getting a good job isn't.

If you aren't smart enough to do research into the field before spending time getting education for it then you made your own bed. Plenty of jobs out there if you get the right education and work hard.

[thethe]

It's pretty easy and tempting to apply your personal experience to the rest of the world." I got a job, so it should be easy for everyone else." " I grew up poor, so poverty should not be an obstacle for anyone else."

It's a matter of perspective—it reminds me of the older folks who wonder why seatbelts are mandatory, since they obviously lived through un unbelted childhood.

Thats all well and good but I don't want to hear people excuses why they can't get a job. I grew up poor and had nothing. My mother died when I was 8 years old and my father worked 14-16 hours a day. I had to be responsible for myself from an early age. I could have decided to be a **** up but I decided that school was important to me. Nobody asked me if I did my homework and nobody made sure I was home at a certain time. But you know what I made sure of all those things.

Its just BS excuses over and over. If you want something bad enough you'll get it done.

[zitothebrave]

If you aren't smart enough to do research into the field before spending time getting education for it then you made your own bed. Plenty of jobs out there if you get the right education and work hard.

Yeah but it's not really that simple. You should realize that.

[thethe]

Yeah but it's not really that simple. You should realize that.

Whtas not simple? Realizing what the in demand markets are?

Its really not hard at all.

[Gary82]

Not all people should be applying to in demand jobs. First of all, they would no longer be in demand. Second, not everyone is cut out for these types of jobs. Some are intellectually demanding, others require a lot of talent and skill.

Not everyone is bright or possess any useful skills. And not all people's ambitions involve making a ton of money.

[thethe]

Nobody is making the claim that you should aspire to make a lot of money. But, people need to understand that life costs money and if you don't make sure you have enough of it to live your lifestyle then you shouldn't expect others to support you.

[Gary82]

So again...what is your plan? Shoot 'em in the face? Kick them off the system and watch them die on the streets?

[zitothebrave]

Whtas not simple? Realizing what the in demand markets are?

Its really not hard at all.

Not easy if you go to a **** high school.

[thethe]

I don't have a plan because the second you support people like this the more will happen. Its not fair for the children who were born into this but at some point people need to pay for their mistakes.

The middle class is not here to support the poor.

[thethe]

Not easy if you go to a **** high school.

Another excuse. I went to crappy school! Its not my fault.

[Gary82]

This thread reminds me of a Carlin bit


Now, to balance the scale, I'd like to talk about some things that bring us together, things that point out our similarities instead of our differences. 'Cause that's all you ever hear about in this country. It's our differences. That's all the media and the politicians are ever talking about--the things that separate us, things that make us different from one another. That's the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other so that they, the rich, can run off with all the ****ing money! Fairly simple thing. Happens to work. You know? Anything different--that's what they're gonna talk about--race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status, sexuality, anything they can do to keep us fighting with each other, so that they can keep going to the bank! You know how I define the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there just to scare the **** out of the middle class. Keep 'em showing up at those jobs.

[Julio3000]

Thats all well and good but I don't want to hear people excuses why they can't get a job. I grew up poor and had nothing. My mother died when I was 8 years old and my father worked 14-16 hours a day. I had to be responsible for myself from an early age. I could have decided to be a **** up but I decided that school was important to me. Nobody asked me if I did my homework and nobody made sure I was home at a certain time. But you know what I made sure of all those things.

Its just BS excuses over and over. If you want something bad enough you'll get it done.

That's great. It speaks well of you.

Sometimes the excuses are BS. Sometimes they aren't.

There are definitely people who opt out of work and live on the system in a variety of ways. There was a good series on NPR/PRI (?) about the proliferation of SSI/disability cases and the choice between looking for work at the bottom of the legit economy and going on on disability—I think Temo posted a link to it, over on the old board, I think. Yes, there are people like the lady in the OP. But you seem stuck on the idea that this is commonplace, that welfare is bankrupting us, and that if we got rid of it there would somehow be an improvement.

In general, though, I just can't subscribe to your vision of the US as some kind of giant welfare state. I mean, compared to whom? We have a fat less generous safety net that most other countries with developed economies.

Everybody doesn't have access to the tools necessary to get a good job. Some people are born with easy access to those tools. Some people aren't, but through some combination of hard work and good luck, will acquire them. Some people simply won't. There aren't good jobs out there for everyone.

[thethe]

This thread reminds me of a Carlin bit

Who has defended the rich here? You are diverting the topic of this thread.

[thethe]

That's great. It speaks well of you.

Sometimes the excuses are BS. Sometimes they aren't.

There are definitely people who opt out of work and live on the system in a variety of ways. There was a good series on NPR/PRI (?) about the proliferation of SSI/disability cases and the choice between looking for work at the bottom of the legit economy and going on on disability—I think Temo posted a link to it, over on the old board, I think. Yes, there are people like the lady in the OP. But you seem stuck on the idea that this is commonplace, that welfare is bankrupting us, and that if we got rid of it there would somehow be an improvement.

In general, though, I just can't subscribe to your vision of the US as some kind of giant welfare state. I mean, compared to whom? We have a fat less generous safety net that most other countries with developed economies.

Everybody doesn't have access to the tools necessary to get a good job. Some people are born with easy access to those tools. Some people aren't, but through some combination of hard work and good luck, will acquire them. Some people simply won't. There aren't good jobs out there for everyone.

Sure, the sheer economics of our country won't allow everyone to have a good job. But then those that can't get a job need to make better decisions for themselves. How about not having kids? Again, I think it comes down to making poor decisions in your life. If you do that then you shouldn't have a safety net.

I don't think Social Welfare on its own will cripple our nation but I think the trend we are going to will just increase that program to the point it will cause a danger. People on social welfare will more likely than not vote for those that will advance it. Thats the direction we are going and its not a good direction to go to IMO.

[zitothebrave]

Another excuse. I went to crappy school! Its not my fault.

It's an obstacle, arguably the hardest. You were lucky to have a good family at home I'm sure, right? Not every kid is lucky enough.

[Gary82]

Who has defended the rich here? You are diverting the topic of this thread.

I thought it was quite relevant.

[Gary82]

But then those that can't get a job need to make better decisions for themselves. How about not having kids? Again, I think it comes down to making poor decisions in your life. If you do that then you shouldn't have a safety net. .

People make mistakes. People **** up. Not everyone has kids on purpose. Sure that lady is a moron, but again, she's the exception.

[thethe]

It's an obstacle, arguably the hardest. You were lucky to have a good family at home I'm sure, right? Not every kid is lucky enough.

No I did not unfortunately.

And all you need is to work hard and get good grades and get a scholarship somewhere.

You don't need a degree from a big university either. You just need the right degree.

[thethe]

People make mistakes. People **** up. Not everyone has kids on purpose. Sure that lady is a moron, but again, she's the exception.

I would think the vast majority of those people that have kids that can't afford it are morons. There will always be those that tried and used protection and it didn't work. But, if you are careful enough there is no reason to have kids before you are ready mentally and financially.

[sturg33]

Has anyone cared to take a look at the correlation of welfare programs/spending and the amount of people who need it over the years?

It's interesting. Basically, when free money is at hand (and by free, I mean stolen from workers), folks tend to find it. When more free money becomes available, more folks find it.

[sturg33]

What's your plan then? Shoot 'em in the face?

Remove the safety net.

[thethe]

Remove the safety net.

This is what ultimately has to be done. The human race has gotten to this point by the principals of Darwinism. Time to go back to that.

[The Chosen One]

This is what ultimately has to be done. The human race has gotten to this point by the principals of Darwinism. Time to go back to that.

Awesome.

I can go to work everyday having to look behind my shoulder for fear someone's going to rob me or mug me for money or food.

[thethe]

Awesome.

I can go to work everyday having to look behind my shoulder for fear someone's going to rob me or mug me for money or food.

Or maybe people get motivated to make themselves better in a legal way?

Not really sure what a good solution to this growing issue is.

[The Chosen One]

Or maybe people get motivated to make themselves better in a legal way?

Not really sure what a good solution to this growing issue is.

Darwinism goes against that. That's why for me, giving out a few handouts to poor people to limit how much damage they can do to our society, is a no brainer.

[thethe]

Darwinism goes against that. That's why for me, giving out a few handouts to poor people to limit how much damage they can do to our society, is a no brainer.

I think that danger can be policed out. I rarely walk the streets at night so I would still feel pretty safe. Not sure what seedy areas you are walking home in.

[sturg33]

Again, I ask - has anyone ever looked at the correlation in welfare benefits expansion and welfare recipients?

[weso1]

Awesome.

I can go to work everyday having to look behind my shoulder for fear someone's going to rob me or mug me for money or food.

Darwinism only selects people who carry guns.

[Julio3000]

Darwinism only selects people who carry guns.

Yeah, just google "gun-cleaning accident," and that will be confirmed for you.

[jpx7]

But, people need to understand that life costs money

And it shouldn't. Hence my anti-capital/anti-capitalism sympathies.

[jpx7]

This is what ultimately has to be done. The human race has gotten to this point by the principals of Darwinism. Time to go back to that.

Yea, progress is stupid! We – as a society, as a species – should cease aspiring to better natures and instead simply milk the teat what got us here!

First step: legalize everything. The will of the stronger is the only law.

[jpx7]

Remove the safety net.

How about we remove the carceral net (http://generalstrikeusa.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/uncompromising-photos-expose-juvenile-detention-in-america/):



"The U.S. locks up children at more than six times the rate of all other developed nations. The over 60,000 average daily juvenile lockups, a figure estimated by the Annie E. Casey Foundation (AECF), are also disproportionately young people of color. With an average cost of $80,000 per year to lock up a child, the U.S. spends more than $5 billion annually on youth detention.

On top of the cost, in its recent report No Place for Kids, the AECF presents evidence to show that youth incarceration does not reduce recidivism rates, does not benefit public safety and exposes those imprisoned to further abuse and violence."

This – juvenile and adult – is where our hard-earned money goes.

[Gary82]

This is what ultimately has to be done. The human race has gotten to this point by the principals of Darwinism. Time to go back to that.

YOURE IN FAVOR OF SOCIAL DARWINISM!?!?!?

[thethe]

YOURE IN FAVOR OF SOCIAL DARWINISM!?!?!?

Why not? Everyone has the power to better themselves.

[thethe]

Yea, progress is stupid! We – as a society, as a species – should cease aspiring to better natures and instead simply milk the teat what got us here!

First step: legalize everything. The will of the stronger is the only law.

What is progressing in this instance? Subsidizing poor people?

[Gary82]

Why not? Everyone has the power to better themselves.

thethe, the social darwinist. love it.

[thethe]

I wonder how many of you actually come from humble beginnings. Not saying in had the worst of it and was lucky in comparison to lots of people but everyone can reach some level of success.

[Gary82]

This is a break off from the George Bernard Shaw thread, where we were discussing eugenics and social Darwinism.

I myself am an eugenicist, I feel that certain unproductive or useless members of society should not be allowed to reproduce or, in extreme cases, to exist. I feel the efficiency and the strength of a society should be the determining factor in its internal policies. With this, eugenics is a logical consequence.

I describe myself as a social Darwinist in that I believe humans are driven, like all organisms, based on Darwinian principles. This, I feel, is not compatible with capitalism or the stereotypical Darwinian "robber baron". Within a society, individuals are driven towards excellence through struggle and strife, the end result being a superior being. Humans are not individual beings but social ones and as such, our primary goal is not the advancement of the self but of our collective selves. In a fascist state this is obviously the nation. When, for instance, someone works for the collective betterment of the nation, he is displaying an innately Darwinian trait. When society, via eugenics, removes the weak and prevents them from impeding its evolution, it is practicing Darwinism. Our body kills and destorys living cells within itself that it views as threats to its continual progression. So too, should a society view its individual cells, i .e. its populace.. I believe in survival of the fittest by means of eugenics for the betterment of the collective state.

How much do you agree with the above statement, thethe? It's from a facist forum I found when searching social darwinism.

[thethe]

Once he starts going into the collective state I stop caring what he has to say.

[sturg33]

How about we remove the carceral net (http://generalstrikeusa.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/uncompromising-photos-expose-juvenile-detention-in-america/):



This – juvenile and adult – is where our hard-earned money goes.

No argument from me. I think it's disgusting that we lock up so many people and then parade around the world as the land of the free.

As you know, i'm all in favor of abolishing criminal punishment of non-violent behavior.

[ESP47]

No argument from me. I think it's disgusting that we lock up so many people and then parade around the world as the land of the free.

As you know, i'm all in favor of abolishing criminal punishment of non-violent behavior.

What should the punishment be for someone who breaks into your home and steals all your stuff?

[goldfly]

Also, where your money goes, The F22 program that is a complete failure: Program cost $66.7 billion and each plane costs $150 million

[Krgrecw]

What should the punishment be for someone who breaks into your home and steals all your stuff?

You think Sturg locks his front door at night? I mean if non-violent crimes shouldn't be punished why prevent them? What's a little breaking and entering charge? It is a non-violent crime after all. If Sturg owned a retail store you think he would prosecute shoplifters? If not, word spreads and people will steal from the store everyday and eventually he may go out of business due to theft.

The majority of persons in prisons have committed crime after crime. People don't wake up one day and start doing hard drugs or committing violent crimes. They start with small drugs and small non-violent crimes and after awhile they add on bigger crimes and harder drugs. A person is a ****ing idiot if they don't think small crimes should be punishable. If you make people realize that step 1 is wrong and if they commit the crime they have to do time you will have less people on step 2 but if you don't punish entry level offenders you'll have more offenders committing more heinous crimes.

If you really wanted to save spending in prisons you make the punishments more severe and less people will commit crimes down the road due to the punishments and eventually you'll have less people incarcerated.

[Gary82]

Non violent drug offenders shouldn't be crowding our prisons. I think that's what sturg meant, or that's what I thought he meant.




If you really wanted to save spending in prisons you make the punishments more severe and less people will commit crimes down the road due to the punishments and eventually you'll have less people incarcerated.

Also, I don't think this will work.

[goldfly]

You think Sturg locks his front door at night? I mean if non-violent crimes shouldn't be punished why prevent them? What's a little breaking and entering charge? It is a non-violent crime after all. If Sturg owned a retail store you think he would prosecute shoplifters? If not, word spreads and people will steal from the store everyday and eventually he may go out of business due to theft.

The majority of persons in prisons have committed crime after crime. People don't wake up one day and start doing hard drugs or committing violent crimes. They start with small drugs and small non-violent crimes and after awhile they add on bigger crimes and harder drugs. A person is a ****ing idiot if they don't think small crimes should be punishable. If you make people realize that step 1 is wrong and if they commit the crime they have to do time you will have less people on step 2 but if you don't punish entry level offenders you'll have more offenders committing more heinous crimes.

If you really wanted to save spending in prisons you make the punishments more severe and less people will commit crimes down the road due to the punishments and eventually you'll have less people incarcerated.


I can't believe people still say out loud the "Gateway drug" bs

but i guess i shouldn't be

we have people that run for president that are proud to say they don't believe in evolution

[Gary82]

we have people that run for president that are proud to say they don't believe in evolution

Some of those people are liars, because they represent morons. Others...well...

[The Chosen One]

I wonder how many of you actually come from humble beginnings. Not saying in had the worst of it and was lucky in comparison to lots of people but everyone can reach some level of success.
I come from humble beginnings and my family has slowly walked up thr the ladder. We're all pretty liberal on fiscal stuff sans my oldest sister who used to be extremely liberal then is now a tea party backer.

[weso1]

Usually when your only argument against the OP is... oh but there's another shiny thing over there that sux, so go look over there... then maybe the OP is onto something.

[50PoundHead]

Why not? Everyone has the power to better themselves.

I don't think that is necessarily true. "Better" is a relative term when used in conjunction with "necessary." In other words, you can get "better" and still fall short of what you "need," hence the need for some kind of safety net.

That kind of goes off-base from your initial post because I agree we have to do something to shore up family structure and responsibility for children (and not just among the poor).

PS--Our taxes are low internationally.

[sturg33]

Non violent drug offenders shouldn't be crowding our prisons. I think that's what sturg meant, or that's what I thought he meant.





Correct

[sturg33]

What should the punishment be for someone who breaks into your home and steals all your stuff?

Considering that is a violation of my property rights, I think there should be severe punishment.

[sturg33]

You think Sturg locks his front door at night? I mean if non-violent crimes shouldn't be punished why prevent them? What's a little breaking and entering charge? It is a non-violent crime after all. If Sturg owned a retail store you think he would prosecute shoplifters? If not, word spreads and people will steal from the store everyday and eventually he may go out of business due to theft.

The majority of persons in prisons have committed crime after crime. People don't wake up one day and start doing hard drugs or committing violent crimes. They start with small drugs and small non-violent crimes and after awhile they add on bigger crimes and harder drugs. A person is a ****ing idiot if they don't think small crimes should be punishable. If you make people realize that step 1 is wrong and if they commit the crime they have to do time you will have less people on step 2 but if you don't punish entry level offenders you'll have more offenders committing more heinous crimes.

If you really wanted to save spending in prisons you make the punishments more severe and less people will commit crimes down the road due to the punishments and eventually you'll have less people incarcerated.

I don't even know how to respond to such nonsense.

[jpx7]

Usually when your only argument against the OP is... oh but there's another shiny thing over there that sux, so go look over there... then maybe the OP is onto something.

Not sure what you mean here. Plenty of cogent arguments directly refuting thethe's initial claim have been advanced, with probably the most germane argument – made by both Julio and Gary – being that extrapolating generalities from one (seemingly foolish) lady is itself foolish, sensationalist, methodologically flawed, and does a disservice to all those who you really do depend on social supports because of circumstances beyond their doing or control.

[weso1]

I don't really see that as an argument against the OP, which just stated "This is where our money goes." That much is true. It's more like an addendum to the OP where Julio is essentially arguing that it's true, but not a big deal. The argument against the OP seems to be the hypocrisy complaint. Crumpfly grumped at me about changing the subject in another thread about FoxNews when I tried that same angle. The hypocrisy never ends.

[weso1]

I am really bored.

[jpx7]

I don't really see that as an argument against the OP, which just stated "This is where our money goes." That much is true. It's more like an addendum to the OP where Julio is essentially arguing that it's true, but not a big deal. The argument against the OP seems to be the hypocrisy complaint. Crumpfly grumped at me about changing the subject in another thread about FoxNews when I tried that same angle. The hypocrisy never ends.

To me, that seems like a deliberate misreading of thethe's opening statements: the "this" in question, for him, is not social supports per se but the abuse thereof, hence citing such an extreme case. But that's generating generalities out of a single grain.

However, if you want to go down that road: the US federal government spends almost twice as much on "defense" as it does on "safety-net" programs. So that, even more so, is where our hard-earned money goes.

[Coredor]

In the grand scheme of things, people like this lady are only a very small part of our budget problems. I also feel that we don't really have a choice, but to do what we can for those children. As for her, she is exactly the kind of reason we need to have a human spay/neuter program. I'm sorry, but people should not have more children then they can support. I'm sympathetic to poor people's rights to have a child or two, but once it gets to a certain point it's ridiculous.

As far as birth control and personal responsibility goes, yes it is something they could probably obtain. However I want it as easily and readily available as humanly possible. The government could probably save money delivering it to her door every month for free. It's in society's best interests that people who want birth control get it.

[The Chosen One]

In the grand scheme of things, people like this lady are only a very small part of our budget problems. I also feel that we don't really have a choice, but to do what we can for those children. As for her, she is exactly the kind of reason we need to have a human spay/neuter program. I'm sorry, but people should not have more children then they can support. I'm sympathetic to poor people's rights to have a child or two, but once it gets to a certain point it's ridiculous.

As far as birth control and personal responsibility goes, yes it is something they could probably obtain. However I want it as easily and readily available as humanly possible. The government could probably save money delivering it to her door every month for free. It's in society's best interests that people who want birth control get it.

Protect the sperm.

[Tapate50]

They don't make it a priority to get BC so they don't get it. It simply isn't a priority.