Funny to think....

[TheBravos]

Last year (and this offseason)....we would have been stoked to get a Fulmer or Archer. This would have partly depleted our farm to pull off the trade.

Both these guys have around .5 to .7 WAR and ERA’s well over 4 this year. Although they “do” have better stuff....they look to have about the same production and impact as Julio (who most says has no value at present).

It really makes me think how fickle pitching can be. Yes, I understand these guys are better than Julio, yet their true impact on the team is really about the same as his this year.

Outside of a true ACE, there aren’t many pitchers worth what it takes to acquire them. It would be nice to have a “Thor, Kershaw, Bumgarner” type guy, but ALL three of those guys have even been on the DL this year (and currently I think all three are).

The best pitching trades I see are the Sale and Verlander deals. The Sox paid through the fricken nose, but at least received what they paid for. The Astros gambled Verlander would regain his old form and hit the jackpot.

For every one of those trades....there are four or five that go badly. Although everyone thought we fleeced the Diamondbacks....we all generally thought Shelby had high value. None of us thought he would get tourched and then have TJ.

Bottom line....if you give up major assets for a pitcher....he better be a slam dunk ACE. Even then that ACE is one pitch away from injury (at a much higher rate than a position player). Acquiring one is massively expensive and a big gamble. It’s a “We are one player away” move. The Astros are a very good example last year.

We are NOT one player away. There should be no rush for us right now.

[Enscheff]

Last year (and this offseason)....we would have been stoked to get a Fulmer or Archer. This would have partly depleted our farm to pull off the trade.

Both these guys have around .5 to .7 WAR and ERA’s well over 4 this year. Although they “do” have better stuff....they look to have about the same production and impact as Julio (who most says has no value at present).

It really makes me think how fickle pitching can be. Yes, I understand these guys are better than Julio, yet their true impact on the team is really about the same as his this year.

Outside of a true ACE, there aren’t many pitchers worth what it takes to acquire them. It would be nice to have a “Thor, Kershaw, Bumgarner” type guy, but ALL three of those guys have even been on the DL this year (and currently I think all three are).

The best pitching trades I see are the Sale and Verlander deals. The Sox paid through the fricken nose, but at least received what they paid for. The Astros gambled Verlander would regain his old form and hit the jackpot.

For every one of those trades....there are four or five that go badly. Although everyone thought we fleeced the Diamondbacks....we all generally thought Shelby had high value. None of us thought he would get tourched and then have TJ.

Bottom line....if you give up major assets for a pitcher....he better be a slam dunk ACE. Even then that ACE is one pitch away from injury (at a much higher rate than a position player). Acquiring one is massively expensive and a big gamble. It’s a “We are one player away” move. The Astros are a very good example last year.

We are NOT one player away. There should be no rush for us right now.

You're absolutely right, but that won't stop every derpibrave from suggesting they trade for a SP.

[AerchAngel]

Brilliant post that I agree with. I am too reluctant to give up a lot of assets for pitchers just because of what you'd posted. Position players don't break down or just be garbage, it is usually a slide, like Donaldson to me. I would not give up major assets for a person on an obvious decline.

[nsacpi]

Last year (and this offseason)....we would have been stoked to get a Fulmer or Archer.

Don't think this was even a majority view. There were some pushing for it, but quite a few of us opposed.

[nsacpi]

Bottom line....if you give up major assets for a pitcher....he better be a slam dunk ACE.

Is there such a thing? I agree that we should avoid the "we're one player away" temptation to overpay. We should always be cheap about using up our trading chips.

[smootness]

Very few teams are ever 'one player away,' at least not the kind of players who are available at the deadline. That's not how baseball works.

I am almost always against buying at the deadline, no matter how good your team is.

[nsacpi]

Very few teams are ever 'one player away,' at least not the kind of players who are available at the deadline. That's not how baseball works.

I am almost always against buying at the deadline, no matter how good your team is.

I'm very cheap about paying that contender's premium too. I think we should shop very carefully and look for bargains in areas of need.

[Enscheff]

Don't think this was even a majority view. There were some pushing for it, but quite a few of us opposed.

Count me among the guys against acquiring either guy...not so much because I knew they were going to decline, but because the risk of them declining wasn't worth the upside of acquiring them at that point in time.

Pitchers provide their value NOW, so it is unwise to acquire them with plans on extracting value from them 1 year from now. The same lesson we should have learned with Teheran, right?

[Southcack77]

Last year (and this offseason)....we would have been stoked to get a Fulmer or Archer. This would have partly depleted our farm to pull off the trade.

Both these guys have around .5 to .7 WAR and ERA’s well over 4 this year. Although they “do” have better stuff....they look to have about the same production and impact as Julio (who most says has no value at present).

It really makes me think how fickle pitching can be. Yes, I understand these guys are better than Julio, yet their true impact on the team is really about the same as his this year.

Outside of a true ACE, there aren’t many pitchers worth what it takes to acquire them. It would be nice to have a “Thor, Kershaw, Bumgarner” type guy, but ALL three of those guys have even been on the DL this year (and currently I think all three are).

The best pitching trades I see are the Sale and Verlander deals. The Sox paid through the fricken nose, but at least received what they paid for. The Astros gambled Verlander would regain his old form and hit the jackpot.

For every one of those trades....there are four or five that go badly. Although everyone thought we fleeced the Diamondbacks....we all generally thought Shelby had high value. None of us thought he would get tourched and then have TJ.

Bottom line....if you give up major assets for a pitcher....he better be a slam dunk ACE. Even then that ACE is one pitch away from injury (at a much higher rate than a position player). Acquiring one is massively expensive and a big gamble. It’s a “We are one player away” move. The Astros are a very good example last year.

We are NOT one player away. There should be no rush for us right now.


Fulmer and Archer aren't in the same class as Sale or Verlander.

Trading for an "ace" generally means that you get really good production from that player for the length of his contract. Sometimes it wins you the World Series.

Rather rarely do you get a completely ineffective piece that is worse than what you had before. Generally, you can point to age and injury there. Or some bad luck over a small sample.

Known commodities typically perform like known commodities.

[Southcack77]

I was against Fulmer. Not sure what I said about Archer, though he was no Sale.

Sale seemed a little premature but clearly better than the other two. I would have been onboard with taking a risk on Verlander, though it wasn't a realistic thing to happen.

[Coredor]

I'm very cheap about paying that contender's premium too. I think we should shop very carefully and look for bargains in areas of need.

That's the way I think of things. I think we'll probably be able to get a good deal on someone who can help us. There are multiple quality third basemen that will most likely be available, but we don't need to give all of our pieces up for Machado. We're willing, not desperate, to make a deal.

[TheBravos]

So what would the price of Thor be like?

Newk or Gohara, Allard, Anderson + a decent position player? Would that do it??

[Super]

So what would the price of Thor be like?

Newk or Gohara, Allard, Anderson + a decent position player? Would that do it??

noooo.
it would be a way bigger price.

[Skeeter31]

So what would the price of Thor be like?

Newk or Gohara, Allard, Anderson + a decent position player? Would that do it??

With the amount of control still on both Thor and DeGrom, either one would most likely require either Acuna or Albies. If not then it’s going to require quite a haul. I’m thinking most of our top level pitching prospects (Gohara, Wright, Newk or Folty, and probably Anderson and Touki) and some lower level guys with high upside as well (ala Waters and Pache). Way too high a price for us with the upcoming international penalty.

[chipchildress]

Last year (and this offseason)....we would have been stoked to get a Fulmer or Archer. This would have partly depleted our farm to pull off the trade.

Both these guys have around .5 to .7 WAR and ERA’s well over 4 this year. Although they “do” have better stuff....they look to have about the same production and impact as Julio (who most says has no value at present).

It really makes me think how fickle pitching can be. Yes, I understand these guys are better than Julio, yet their true impact on the team is really about the same as his this year.

Outside of a true ACE, there aren’t many pitchers worth what it takes to acquire them. It would be nice to have a “Thor, Kershaw, Bumgarner” type guy, but ALL three of those guys have even been on the DL this year (and currently I think all three are).

The best pitching trades I see are the Sale and Verlander deals. The Sox paid through the fricken nose, but at least received what they paid for. The Astros gambled Verlander would regain his old form and hit the jackpot.

For every one of those trades....there are four or five that go badly. Although everyone thought we fleeced the Diamondbacks....we all generally thought Shelby had high value. None of us thought he would get tourched and then have TJ.

Bottom line....if you give up major assets for a pitcher....he better be a slam dunk ACE. Even then that ACE is one pitch away from injury (at a much higher rate than a position player). Acquiring one is massively expensive and a big gamble. It’s a “We are one player away” move. The Astros are a very good example last year.

We are NOT one player away. There should be no rush for us right now.

i dream that one day the braves will be the team that can take the next randy johnson at the deadline.

agree that trading for rick ankiels isn't the way to go.

[Heyward]

Last year (and this offseason)....we would have been stoked to get a Fulmer or Archer. This would have partly depleted our farm to pull off the trade.

Both these guys have around .5 to .7 WAR and ERA’s well over 4 this year. Although they “do” have better stuff....they look to have about the same production and impact as Julio (who most says has no value at present).

It really makes me think how fickle pitching can be. Yes, I understand these guys are better than Julio, yet their true impact on the team is really about the same as his this year.

Outside of a true ACE, there aren’t many pitchers worth what it takes to acquire them. It would be nice to have a “Thor, Kershaw, Bumgarner” type guy, but ALL three of those guys have even been on the DL this year (and currently I think all three are).

The best pitching trades I see are the Sale and Verlander deals. The Sox paid through the fricken nose, but at least received what they paid for. The Astros gambled Verlander would regain his old form and hit the jackpot.

For every one of those trades....there are four or five that go badly. Although everyone thought we fleeced the Diamondbacks....we all generally thought Shelby had high value. None of us thought he would get tourched and then have TJ.

Bottom line....if you give up major assets for a pitcher....he better be a slam dunk ACE. Even then that ACE is one pitch away from injury (at a much higher rate than a position player). Acquiring one is massively expensive and a big gamble. It’s a “We are one player away” move. The Astros are a very good example last year.

We are NOT one player away. There should be no rush for us right now.

We're not one player away but if there is one player who can really help us and he's attainable in a trade, AA should make the move.

[chipchildress]

Is there such a thing? I agree that we should avoid the "we're one player away" temptation to overpay. We should always be cheap about using up our trading chips.

yes. Randy Johnson was a total slam dunk and the Braves would have more world titles had they somehow acquired him, not that that was ever an option.

[Heyward]

With the amount of control still on both Thor and DeGrom, either one would most likely require either Acuna or Albies. If not then it’s going to require quite a haul. I’m thinking most of our top level pitching prospects (Gohara, Wright, Newk or Folty, and probably Anderson and Touki) and some lower level guys with high upside as well (ala Waters and Pache). Way too high a price for us with the upcoming international penalty.

Sale only cost Moncada, Kopech, and 1-2 lesser names.

I dont think it would cost as much but the price may be higher due to there not being many/any aces available on the market as of now.

[Super]

Sale only cost Moncada, Kopech, and 1-2 lesser names.

I dont think it would cost as much but the price may be higher due to there not being many/any aces available on the market as of now.

"only"?
Moncada was the #1 prospect in the game. kopech had a ton of helium and has only improved his status.
this would be similar to us trading acuña and someone like soroka/wright

[nsacpi]

yes. Randy Johnson was a total slam dunk and the Braves would have more world titles had they somehow acquired him, not that that was ever an option.

so who is the next "total slam dunk"

[Enscheff]

So what would the price of Thor be like?

Newk or Gohara, Allard, Anderson + a decent position player? Would that do it??

As usual, it would be so expensive there wouldn't be enough of a team left to compete anyways.

The Braves have a completely home grown core that is young and improving...and they are barely in the WC hunt now.

And folks want to trade away part of that young and improving core to bring in a pitcher who will only be around for 2-3 years?

That exact thought process is how windows of contention slam shut.

[TheBravos]

As usual, it would be so expensive there wouldn't be enough of a team left to compete anyways.

The Braves have a completely home grown core that is young and improving...and they are barely in the WC hunt now.

And folks want to trade away part of that young and improving core to bring in a pitcher who will only be around for 2-3 years?

That exact thought process is how windows of contention slam shut.

Oh, I’m not saying I want to trade for him. We should stay the course. I was just curious.

[chipchildress]

so who is the next "total slam dunk"

who knows. he might still be in diapers.

[Enscheff]

who knows. he might still be in diapers.

LOL....

You say the Braves should acquire the next slam dunk, and then in your next post admit there's no way to tell who the next slam dunk is.

Clearly you're a brilliant baseball mind!

[chipchildress]

As usual, it would be so expensive there wouldn't be enough of a team left to compete anyways.

The Braves have a completely home grown core that is young and improving...and they are barely in the WC hunt now.

And folks want to trade away part of that young and improving core to bring in a pitcher who will only be around for 2-3 years?

That exact thought process is how windows of contention slam shut.

100% agree

[chipchildress]

LOL....

You say the Braves should acquire the next slam dunk, and then in your next post admit there's no way to tell who the next slam dunk is.

Clearly you're a brilliant baseball mind!

not sure what the issue here is. that seems to flow exactly with what you're saying. keep the young core together unless the deal is too good to be true or something like that.


but in fact i don't think the braves should do much of anything involving getting rid of talent. i'm not even sure i said the braves should trade for the next slam dunk. i believe i merely suggested that a slam dunk is a real thing.

[Southcack77]

I think there is an excellent chance that if the Braves acquire the likes of Sale, deGrom, Thor, bumgarner that they would continue to pitch in the same range they are currently pitching.

I’m not sure if that’s a “slam dunk” or not.