Machado or MooseTacos deal

[bravesfanforlife88]

I have a feeling that after this 14 game stretch that we are on, we could get more serious about making a deal to improve the club for a postseason run. By that point we are at the end of June and not too far from the halfway point of the season....if I am going to trade any talent, i'd rather get 3 or 4 months out of my guy rather than 2.....

My question is, between Machado and MooseTacos, which player would you go after more. And would you give up a Camargo in the deal to make it more enticing for the other team.

My thoughts are that in a Machado deal, I would definitely give up Camargo no questions asked. I'm not saying a deal centered around him gets the deal done, but if it saves me one of my better prospects then i'm all for it. It seems that the Braves don't see Camargo as more than a super utility player long term. And with Swanson, Albies, and Riley not far behind, there is no spot for him to be an everyday player.

If we do the MooseTacos deal, i'm more inclined to keep him, unless we are getting other players back as well, such as Herrera.

[50PoundHead]

I agree that if we are going to be true contenders we are going to have to find another bat, even after Acuna returns. 3B is the spot that makes the most sense for an upgrade. I've been one of Camargo's biggest supporters over the years, but I think you're right that his ceiling is a top-drawer utility guy. What that nets is anyone's guess. Rental or not, I think the price on Machado is going to be very high (perhaps prohibitive) and I think the Orioles are going to want better long-term prospects over Camargo. Moustakas is a different story and I think a deal centered on Camargo could work although I think the deal would have to be expanded on both sides for it to work.

[Bravesfannchar]

This isn’t our year to go all-in on a machado and pay the surplus... We need deals containing players with multiple years remaining on their contracts.

A machado deal is more less another John Schuerholtz deal of pissing away trade chips. This is assuming we don’t resign him and he bounces to LA or NY

[bravesfanforlife88]

I agree that if we are going to be true contenders we are going to have to find another bat, even after Acuna returns. 3B is the spot that makes the most sense for an upgrade. I've been one of Camargo's biggest supporters over the years, but I think you're right that his ceiling is a top-drawer utility guy. What that nets is anyone's guess. Rental or not, I think the price on Machado is going to be very high (perhaps prohibitive) and I think the Orioles are going to want better long-term prospects over Camargo. Moustakas is a different story and I think a deal centered on Camargo could work although I think the deal would have to be expanded on both sides for it to work.

My thoughts too....I lean more towards a MooseTacos deal centered around him and Camargo....i'd want to pick up Herrera for the bullpen help along with him.... with both player almost a certain rental, I'd rather give up less prospect capital to get the deal done....if we can give up Camargo and 1 or 2 B/C prospects i'd be okay with that, we are pretty much out of room on the pitching side, so some of these guys are going to have to be moved.

[TheBravos]

For a rental, you give away guys like Wisler, Peterson or maybe Fried. Definitely not your super utility guy.

[Tapate50]

Camargo for Mous? No thanks. Deal from a position of depth, we have arms not super utility guys to spare. If you deal from anywhere it needs to be from the pitchers in AA and AAA or below.

[bravesfanforlife88]

For a rental, you give away guys like Wisler, Peterson or maybe Fried. Definitely not your super utility guy.

We have one in Culberson.....i'd rather trade him, but if im the O's or Royals i'd want Camargo

And I doubt that Wisler, Peterson, or Fried get you Machado or Moustakas/Herrera

[TheBravos]

Mouse...yes. Why would you give up what it would take to acquire Machado...knowing you likely won’t be able to sign him back. No thanks.

[Heyward]

If we're going after Moose, might as well go for Herrera as well.

Kill two birds with one stone. I dont know what the package would be but thats what i would do if we make a move to go for a playoff spot.

I wouldnt pay what it cost for Machado knowing there's no chance he'd re-sign.

[Southcack77]

1. I'm skeptical the price tag on Machado ends up being what people are suggesting it will be. Teams had the ability to trade for him this winter and balked at the price. With the 3B market flooded with possibilities and relatively few teams in need of 3B or SS help, I'm not sure that a bidding war ever erupts. If one does, it might be over teams trying to make a free agent impression.

After all, the price tag for All Star caliber rental hitters has been surprisingly light recently.

2. I'd trade Camargo for Machado just for the off chance he finds out that he is soul mates with Acuna and Albies. Without hesitation. I might do that even if Machado was out for the season so long as he hangs out in the dugout. I'm not sure I'm even joking at this point.

3. I'm super in the tank for taking a big gamble on Machado and don't care how impractical that is in free agency for the Braves. Don't pay attention to me.

[zbhargrove]

Does Machado have a brother in law that we can sign?

[Heyward]

1. I'm skeptical the price tag on Machado ends up being what people are suggesting it will be. Teams had the ability to trade for him this winter and balked at the price. With the 3B market flooded with possibilities and relatively few teams in need of 3B or SS help, I'm not sure that a bidding war ever erupts. If one does, it might be over teams trying to make a free agent impression.

After all, the price tag for All Star caliber rental hitters has been surprisingly light recently.

2. I'd trade Camargo for Machado just for the off chance he finds out that he is soul mates with Acuna and Albies. Without hesitation. I might do that even if Machado was out for the season so long as he hangs out in the dugout. I'm not sure I'm even joking at this point.

3. I'm super in the tank for taking a big gamble on Machado and don't care how impractical that is in free agency for the Braves. Don't pay attention to me.

Yeah there was a story a month or so ago Baltimore might keep Machado because the offers wont be what they were this winter and there's other options out there (Beltre, Lowrie, and Moose to name a few, maybe Frazier if Mets blow it up)

He has value but i'm still not sold he's gonna cost an insane amount given there's other options available. By that, i mean i dont think he'd cost like a teams 1, 4, 13, and 20th best prospect for him.

[bravesfanforlife88]

If we're going after Moose, might as well go for Herrera as well.

Kill two birds with one stone. I dont know what the package would be but thats what i would do if we make a move to go for a playoff spot.

I wouldnt pay what it cost for Machado knowing there's no chance he'd re-sign.

My thoughts exactly. That makes trading Camargo in that deal make sense.

[nsacpi]

For a rental, you give away guys like Wisler, Peterson or maybe Fried. Definitely not your super utility guy.

Agreed. We can get Beltre or Moose without trading away Camargo. I think something along the lines of Wisler and Demeritte would do the trick. This is a 3 month rental. Unless it is for an elite player like Machado, rentals don't cost much in the way of prospects.

[mqt]

If we felt confident we could sign Machado long-term, I’d go with him. Maybe trade Riley for him.

[Heyward]

My thoughts exactly. That makes trading Camargo in that deal make sense.

It still doesnt, Camargo is pretty valuable, i wouldnt move him in that deal but Herrera/Moose together would cost more than a Fried, Wisler, Sims type.

[Southcack77]

Agreed. We can get Beltre or Moose without trading away Camargo. I think something along the lines of Wisler and Demeritte would do the trick. This is a 3 month rental. Unless it is for an elite player like Machado, rentals don't cost much in the way of prospects.


Demerritte is a 23 year old repeating AA unconvincingly. They got him for Lucas Harrell and Dario Alvarez, who the Braves acquitted as a mid-season free agent and waiver wire acquisition.

Are you sure you could bear giving him up?

[Carp]

No to Camargo in any deal during the season (well any realistic deal). You should be able to get Moose for a deal centered around Wisler most likely, may be Fried at most. He just isn't a super valuable player and this past off-season proved that. Herrera shouldn't cost all that much as a rental either.

[nsacpi]

Demerritte is a 23 year old repeating AA unconvincingly. They got him for Lucas Harrell and Dario Alvarez, who the Braves acquitted as a mid-season free agent and waiver wire acquisition.

Are you sure you could bear giving him up?

i think some would find it unbearable...the Demeritte (1 r 2 t's) fan club is a pretty big clan around here

[Southcack77]

i think some would find it unbearable...the Demeritte (1 r 2 t's) fan club is a pretty big clan around here

Yeah, I don't care how his name is spelled. Not sure his mama does.

[clvclv]

Agreed. We can get Beltre or Moose without trading away Camargo. I think something along the lines of Wisler and Demeritte would do the trick. This is a 3 month rental. Unless it is for an elite player like Machado, rentals don't cost much in the way of prospects.

The interesting question (for me) is would a package of Fried, Cumberland, and Demeritte net you Moose AND Herrera?

[Tapate50]

The interesting question (for me) is would a package of Fried, Cumberland, and Demeritte net you Moose AND Herrera?

It shouldn't cost anything near Cumberland.

[NYCBrave]

It shouldn't cost anything near Cumberland.

Especially if we pick up the salaries. If we ask the Royals to pay that's another story.

[cajunrevenge]

Rather let Camargo start at 3B than trade for MooseTacoes. I would do a trade for Machado depending on the cost. I would give up Camargo in a heartbeat in this deal if Orioles want him. Also would try to use Wright as the main trade piece.

[BeanieAntics]

I guess I just don't get it. I would never trade someone like Camargo, who has actually shown a decent amount of upside so far, for a 3 month rental. Even one as talented as Machado. This isn't a team that is one player away from a WS ring and I'm 99% sure that we have no chance of signing Machado to a deal this offseason. Camargo is a cheap controllable asset that is, at best, a 3 WAR 3rd baseman and at worst a really really good utility guy. The good news is that I don't believe a Machado rental would be expensive enough to require someone like Machado. The Orioles have put themselves in a bind. They are wasting the last season of their most valuable asset in a non-competitive season. They waited too long to unload him and have gotten unlucky this year because it looks like 3rd base is going to be a definitive buyers market. No reason to overpay for him at all.

Personally, I think we could do just fine with Camargo manning 3rd for us all year. But if a trade is going to happen, I would prefer that we go after someone like Moose or Beltre.

[BeanieAntics]

Rather let Camargo start at 3B than trade for MooseTacoes. I would do a trade for Machado depending on the cost. I would give up Camargo in a heartbeat in this deal if Orioles want him. Also would try to use Wright as the main trade piece.

Wait so now we are going to have to give up Camargo AND a top 30 pitching prospect for a 3 month rental? Jiminy Christmas...

[Southcack77]

Wait so now we are going to have to give up Camargo AND a top 30 pitching prospect for a 3 month rental? Jiminy Christmas...

Yeah, I'm not giving up Wright for two months of Machado either. The Phillies are certainly welcome to do something like that if they want. He'll probably hate Kapler and it will all work out for the best.

[Heyward]

I guess I just don't get it. I would never trade someone like Camargo, who has actually shown a decent amount of upside so far, for a 3 month rental. Even one as talented as Machado. This isn't a team that is one player away from a WS ring and I'm 99% sure that we have no chance of signing Machado to a deal this offseason. Camargo is a cheap controllable asset that is, at best, a 3 WAR 3rd baseman and at worst a really really good utility guy. The good news is that I don't believe a Machado rental would be expensive enough to require someone like Machado. The Orioles have put themselves in a bind. They are wasting the last season of their most valuable asset in a non-competitive season. They waited too long to unload him and have gotten unlucky this year because it looks like 3rd base is going to be a definitive buyers market. No reason to overpay for him at all.

Personally, I think we could do just fine with Camargo manning 3rd for us all year. But if a trade is going to happen, I would prefer that we go after someone like Moose or Beltre.

O's certainly waited way too long, they "should" have traded him last deadline, thats 1.5 years of control and the controlling team gets the QO as well.

This winter, the controlling team would get a full year plus the QO.

Now?

No QO, and as stated, there's options out there (Lowrie, Beltre, Moose, maybe Frazier), offers will be worse than what they got in the winter. Maybe they get one good prospect, a fringe top 100 guy and a couple lottery tickets.

[cajunrevenge]

This is contract year Machado. Basically adding a RH Freeman into the lineup and a gold glove defender at 3B. Makes us legitimate world series contenders.

[UNCBlue012]

This may have already been posted, but:

Hearing the main players in the Machado trade sweepstakes are the Phillies & Braves, with the Cardinals a distant third. O's like ATL pitching prospects. Trade unlikely with PHI without Sixto Sanchez and/or Enyel De Los Santos. Looking for P and SS help. Cleveland also lurking.

[bravesfanforlife88]

This may have already been posted, but:

Hearing the main players in the Machado trade sweepstakes are the Phillies & Braves, with the Cardinals a distant third. O's like ATL pitching prospects. Trade unlikely with PHI without Sixto Sanchez and/or Enyel De Los Santos. Looking for P and SS help. Cleveland also lurking.

So by looking for pitching and SS help, Camargo makes some sense for them along with a fringe top 100 pitcher...makes sense.

[Enscheff]

This may have already been posted, but:

Hearing the main players in the Machado trade sweepstakes are the Phillies & Braves, with the Cardinals a distant third. O's like ATL pitching prospects. Trade unlikely with PHI without Sixto Sanchez and/or Enyel De Los Santos. Looking for P and SS help. Cleveland also lurking.

Requiring one of Wright/Gohara/Soroka (comparable value to Sixto) for Machado is a non-starter, obviously. However, there is a chance the O's value a Braves pitcher much more than the Braves do, and a deal could make sense.

When we talk about hypotheticals with the O's, we have to remember just how terrible that FO is. It is safe to assume they have nearly zero analytical horsepower, and they are still living in the 90s (or maybe even the 80s). This the same team that gave Davis huge money for no apparent reason, and bid against themselves for Cobb to pay full asking price when nobody else was remotely close to giving him that kind of money.

They almost certainly won't be getting Sixto for a Machado rental, but the idea of lumping De Los Santos in with him as if they are even in the same realm of value is extremely telling. If they value someone like Allard/Fried/Wentz enough to take either as the centerpiece for Machado, AA has to strongly consider that move depending on what the additional pieces are.

Plopping Machado in the 2 hole between Markakis leading off and Freeman batting 3rd would make for a very potent top of the lineup, and likely improves the team by 2-3 wins over the final 2-3 months.

[msstate7]

Will Machado play 3b? If he refuses, it's a no go too. His fangraph's def value is at -0.8; Swanson is at 6.5 (missed time too)

[Super]

yeah, machado would have to agree to go back to 3B if he came here.

[Enscheff]

Players play where managers tell them to play.

He can force a team to let him play SS when he is on the FA market.

[Super]

Players play where managers tell them to play.

He can force a team to let him play SS when he is on the FA market.

what about pouting tho

[Enscheff]

It's also interesting to note the Braves will be dealing with 2 of the absolute worst FOs in a potential Mous or Machado trade. Both KC and the O's are living in the 90s.

The stage is set for AA to get extremely good value for a 3B rental.

[Carp]

Requiring one of Wright/Gohara/Soroka (comparable value to Sixto) for Machado is a non-starter, obviously. However, there is a chance the O's value a Braves pitcher much more than the Braves do, and a deal could make sense.

When we talk about hypotheticals with the O's, we have to remember just how terrible that FO is. It is safe to assume they have nearly zero analytical horsepower, and they are still living in the 90s (or maybe even the 80s). This the same team that gave Davis huge money for no apparent reason, and bid against themselves for Cobb to pay full asking price when nobody else was remotely close to giving him that kind of money.

They almost certainly won't be getting Sixto for a Machado rental, but the idea of lumping De Los Santos in with him as if they are even in the same realm of value is extremely telling. If they value someone like Allard/Fried/Wentz enough to take either as the centerpiece for Machado, AA has to strongly consider that move depending on what the additional pieces are.

Plopping Machado in the 2 hole between Markakis leading off and Freeman batting 3rd would make for a very potent top of the lineup, and likely improves the team by 2-3 wins over the final 2-3 months.

I agree with all this. I hate to mortgage the future on a rental, but at some point, the cost makes a ton of sense. Something along the lines of Allard, Sims, and someone not in our top 25, may be? Since we are dreaming, I wonder what we would have to add in order to get Bundy as well?

[bravesfanMatt]

I agree with all this. I hate to mortgage the future on a rental, but at some point, the cost makes a ton of sense. Something along the lines of Allard, Sims, and someone not in our top 25, may be? Since we are dreaming, I wonder what we would have to add in order to get Bundy as well?

I also think it is easier to resign than sign someone. Especially if that person witnesses how close that team really is to winning. Every player wants to get paid. But every player wants to win too. Manny comes in and we make a deep playoff run. Then he might want to resign with us. All that said it would still be a rich contract and I am not sure I want to commit that much payroll to one player.

[Enscheff]

I agree with all this. I hate to mortgage the future on a rental, but at some point, the cost makes a ton of sense. Something along the lines of Allard, Sims, and someone not in our top 25, may be? Since we are dreaming, I wonder what we would have to add in order to get Bundy as well?

I think it's more likely they get Machado and a BP arm like O'Day or Britton than Bundy.

I'm guessing Bundy would be prohibitively expensive, if they are willing to trade him at all. They're probably going to make the same mistake the Braves did with Julio and will try to rebuild around him rather than convert him into future value. It will go about as well as that course of action did for the Braves.

[Orphan Black]

If you put Machado in front of or behind Freeman the lineup gets really really scary.

I still think it would cost too much prospect wise to get him. People have to remember the Braves would have to outbid everyone else (except of maybe the Yankees since the O's might require more from a team in their division).

[Carp]

Machado will go wherever the money is. But yes, it would make a slight difference if the money were pretty similar.

[Heyward]

This may have already been posted, but:

Hearing the main players in the Machado trade sweepstakes are the Phillies & Braves, with the Cardinals a distant third. O's like ATL pitching prospects. Trade unlikely with PHI without Sixto Sanchez and/or Enyel De Los Santos. Looking for P and SS help. Cleveland also lurking.

I wonder what prospects Baltimore likes.

The Wright/Gohara/Allard or Wentz/Touki/Fried etc.

I dont think Soroka would be involved.

[Heyward]

If you put Machado in front of or behind Freeman the lineup gets really really scary.

I still think it would cost too much prospect wise to get him. People have to remember the Braves would have to outbid everyone else (except of maybe the Yankees since the O's might require more from a team in their division).

If Braves traded Julio just to get his salary off the books and declined McCarthy's option, they'd have around 26 mil or so pre-arb, so they'd have plenty of money to spend, question is if they would even come close to an offer for Machado.

You could still have a rotation of Newk, Gohara, Soroka, Folty, and Allard/trade/FA.

[Tapate50]

If Braves traded Julio just to get his salary off the books and declined McCarthy's option, they'd have around 26 mil or so pre-arb, so they'd have plenty of money to spend, question is if they would even come close to an offer for Machado.

You could still have a rotation of Newk, Gohara, Soroka, Folty, and Allard/trade/FA.

I think that figure is really low

[Orphan Black]

If Braves traded Julio just to get his salary off the books and declined McCarthy's option, they'd have around 26 mil or so pre-arb, so they'd have plenty of money to spend, question is if they would even come close to an offer for Machado.

You could still have a rotation of Newk, Gohara, Soroka, Folty, and Allard/trade/FA.

I don't see anyone takes on Teheran's salary unless they were getting a lottery prospect like the Braves did with Touki.

[thewupk]

I think that figure is really low

It is. But assuming Julio is traded and McCarthy's option is declined then I believe the only two players under contract (not league min or in arby) would be Freeman and Ender. Braves will have some cash to spend.

[Southcack77]

I think that figure is really low

If they declined McCarthy and Julio, the payroll would maybe start south of 50 million after arbitration. Freddie and Inciarte would be the only contract players on the team in that scenario.

That's 60-70 million to spend. Would have to sign 2 catchers. Then 1 OF, consider 3B, two rotation spots, and maybe a pen arm.

Catcher is costing Atlanta 6.5 this year.

[Southcack77]

I think that figure is really low

If they declined McCarthy and Julio, the payroll would maybe start south of 50 million after arbitration. Freddie and Inciarte would be the only contract players on the team in that scenario.

That's 60-70 million to spend. Would have to sign 2 catchers. Then 1 OF, consider 3B, two rotation spots, and maybe a pen arm.

Catcher is costing Atlanta 6.5 this year.

[Enscheff]

It is. But assuming Julio is traded and McCarthy's option is declined then I believe the only two players under contract (not league min or in arby) would be Freeman and Ender. Braves will have some cash to spend.

The Braves can already afford Harper or Machado...for 2-3 years...maybe 4 years. The recent infusion of young cheap players has made that possible for a short period of time.

They can pretty easily give Machado or Harper $35M+ in 2019, but they can't give them $35M+ for 10+ years and expect to field a competitive roster around them.

That's the problem, and is why the only chance they have is to front load a 10+ year contract and hope they opt out. It's a huge gamble that could potentially sink the Braves for a decade if it backfires.

[Heyward]

I think that figure is really low

I meant in terms of big money players, without arb or pre arb. With that factored in, i think payroll would be 50ish million or so on a 120-130 million payroll so there's money to spend.

[cajunrevenge]

Thats a gamble I want to take. He would be 29 after 3 years and thats likely to be the 3 best years of his career. 10 more years would only put him at 39 the last year and someone is dumb enough to do that. Adding that kind of talent without having to trade any assets would be a huge boost for the organization. If he doesnt opt out it likely means those 3 yers didnt go so well but he could still be a good player the remaining 7 years. He could still be a valuable player in his mid 30's even if he isnt worth 35 million a year. Given the length and rapidly rising salaries it might look like a bargain by the time its over.

[thewupk]

The Braves can already afford Harper or Machado...for 2-3 years...maybe 4 years. The recent infusion of young cheap players has made that possible for a short period of time.

They can pretty easily give Machado or Harper $35M+ in 2019, but they can't give them $35M+ for 10+ years and expect to field a competitive roster around them.

That's the problem, and is why the only chance they have is to front load a 10+ year contract and hope they opt out. It's a huge gamble that could potentially sink the Braves for a decade if it backfires.

Meh. Just have to hold out until 2027. Hopefully the tv market hasn't completely cratered and the Braves can cash in like every other team.

[cajunrevenge]

I would trade the farm for Vlad Gurrero Jr. Gohara/Allard/Riley/Pace/Wentz!

[thewupk]

I would trade the farm for Vlad Gurrero Jr. Gohara/Allard/Riley/Pace/Wentz!

He will bust like Acuna

[Heyward]

The Braves can already afford Harper or Machado...for 2-3 years...maybe 4 years. The recent infusion of young cheap players has made that possible for a short period of time.

They can pretty easily give Machado or Harper $35M+ in 2019, but they can't give them $35M+ for 10+ years and expect to field a competitive roster around them.

That's the problem, and is why the only chance they have is to front load a 10+ year contract and hope they opt out. It's a huge gamble that could potentially sink the Braves for a decade if it backfires.

I'd go for Machado over Harper.

But thats still a risk worth taking and also hoping payroll increases if Braves become a perennial playoff team.

[Enscheff]

Meh. Just have to hold out until 2027. Hopefully the tv market hasn't completely cratered and the Braves can cash in like every other team.

Take a gamble based on another gamble.

I like it!

[thewupk]

Take a gamble based on another gamble.

I like it!

Might as well double down. See what happens.

[Tapate50]

Take a gamble based on another gamble.

I like it!

I bet you do Vegas!

Scared money is dead money!

[Southcack77]

Machado is as low a risk on a 10 year deal as you could hope for.

Roll those bones!

[Hudson2]

With all the cheap talent we have I’d go hard after Machado. If we traded for him at the deadline he would probably enjoy the new park and having other Latin players like Acuna and Albies that are rising stars and young to. That could entice him to make us a serious contender for him to stay, especially if we made the playoffs.

[Enscheff]

I see all the variations of "home town discount" are being tossed around as usual haha.

[Heyward]

Machado wont take a discount but if there's anyone you give a 10-year deal to a player, it's him.

[thewupk]

Machado is as low a risk on a 10 year deal as you could hope for.

Roll those bones!

IMO he's a much safer bet than Harper. Still it's likely to be a bad deal on the backend as most deals like this are. Would it cripple the Braves if he declines hard in his 30's? Sure. Still would be a fun ride for a few years with him and Freeman back to back.

[msstate7]

Machado is as low a risk on a 10 year deal as you could hope for.

Roll those bones!

Wants to be a SS though. What you do with Swanson?

[thewupk]

Wants to be a SS though. What you do with Swanson?

3B

[Southcack77]

IMO he's a much safer bet than Harper. Still it's likely to be a bad deal on the backend as most deals like this are. Would it cripple the Braves if he declines hard in his 30's? Sure. Still would be a fun ride for a few years with him and Freeman back to back.

If you did front load the deal, it's might not be that bad. You'd be paying him like a franchise guy, so you would need him to produce at all all star level.

Chipper was an injury mess late, but was still producing like an All Star. I don't think Chipper was ever paid like Machado will be, but in any event 36 was Chipper's batting title season in which he played 128 games, for example.

In addition to an opt out, there is also the chance that you could flip the contract when the deal would start to put too much pressure on payroll.

I think though that John S's statements about paying too much for free agents probably makes this fantasy.

[Southcack77]

Wants to be a SS though. What you do with Swanson?


I'd tell Machado to shut up and play where the guy paying him 35 million asked him to play, but if he forced the issue, I'd trade Swanson or play him at 3B, I guess.

[msstate7]

3B

I suppose you could since he's such a dynamic bat, but really makes no sense to play the lesser player defensively at SS.

Who are the teams that would want him at SS?

[Orphan Black]

Lineup with with Machado and Acuna back?

1. Ozzie
2. Acuna
3. Freeman
4. Machado
5. Neck
6. Suzuki/Flowers
7. Swanson
8. Ender

That's one deep freaking lineup.

[thewupk]

I suppose you could since he's such a dynamic bat, but really makes no sense to play the lesser player defensively at SS.

Who are the teams that would want him at SS?

Oh I know. If someone is going to pay him the contract we expect him to get then he will play where they say.

[Enscheff]

Lineup with with Machado and Acuna back?

1. Ozzie
2. Acuna
3. Freeman
4. Machado
5. Neck
6. Suzuki/Flowers
7. Swanson
8. Ender

That's one deep freaking lineup.

If Markakis bats 5th while Ozzie has an OBP below .300...someone has not been paying attention.

The correct Top 3 would be Markakis, Machado, Freeman.

[IslandBrave]

If Markakis bats 5th while Ozzie has an OBP below .300...someone has not been paying attention.

The correct Top 3 would be Markakis, Machado, Freeman.

Must do what the computers say.

[Heyward]

Lineup with with Machado and Acuna back?

1. Ozzie
2. Acuna
3. Freeman
4. Machado
5. Neck
6. Suzuki/Flowers
7. Swanson
8. Ender

That's one deep freaking lineup.

Markakis
Machado
Freeman
Acuna
Ozzie
Catcher
Swanson
Ender

is what i'd do

[Enscheff]

Must do what the computers say.

Considering they've been right about every single regression candidate and future performance I've commented on the last few years...yeah, I'd listen to them.

Or they could go with your gut instincts. Care to explore the accuracy of those the last few years?

[Carp]

I suppose you could since he's such a dynamic bat, but really makes no sense to play the lesser player defensively at SS.

Who are the teams that would want him at SS?

Worked for the Yanks with Jeter and A-Roid.

[Southcack77]

Paul: If you were in Anthopoulos’ position, how would you handle the trade deadline?
Keith Law: If you think you can trade some pitching surplus for major-league help, consider it – they do have a few more arms than they can use in the majors right now, and there are guys like Wright, Wilson, Anderson coming fast. But I wouldn’t go all in, or try to trade for someone like Machado … fans pushing for that are delusional on several levels, not least how much impact one player might have in two months.


up your nose with a rubber hose, Law.

[bravesfanMatt]

Paul: If you were in Anthopoulos’ position, how would you handle the trade deadline?
Keith Law: If you think you can trade some pitching surplus for major-league help, consider it – they do have a few more arms than they can use in the majors right now, and there are guys like Wright, Wilson, Anderson coming fast. But I wouldn’t go all in, or try to trade for someone like Machado … fans pushing for that are delusional on several levels, not least how much impact one player might have in two months.


up your nose with a rubber hose, Law.


Crime dog would like to meet you outside the gym at 3 klaw. He wants to tell you something.

[IslandBrave]

Considering they've been right about every single regression candidate and future performance I've commented on the last few years...yeah, I'd listen to them.

Or they could go with your gut instincts. Care to explore the accuracy of those the last few years?

Every single one huh? It’s amazing you don’t have a job in Major League Baseball with how smart you are.

Analytics are a huge part of baseball and baseball’s future, but they don’t know everything and they don’t always paint the entire picture.

[Enscheff]

Every single one huh? It’s amazing you don’t have a job in Major League Baseball with how smart you are.

Analytics are a huge part of baseball and baseball’s future, but they don’t know everything and they don’t always paint the entire picture.

Yes, every single one.

I’m more than willing to put my record of projections and predictions up against yours any day.

[EstebanBugatti]

Markakis
Machado
Freeman
Acuna
Ozzie
Catcher
Swanson
Ender

is what i'd do

Neck
Acuna
Freeman
Machado
Catcher
Ozzie
Swanson
Ender

Would be a much better lineup.

[Enscheff]

Neck
Acuna
Freeman
Machado
Catcher
Ozzie
Swanson
Ender

Would be a much better lineup.

“Much better” is a bit of an over statement. It’s probbaly a reach to claim it’s better you want.

You literally flipped 2 with 4 to get the worse hitter more PAs, and moved Albies down one spot.

Markakis, Machado and Freeman at the top is the correct answer.

[EstebanBugatti]

“Much better” is a bit of an over statement. It’s probbaly a reach to claim it’s better you want.

You literally flipped 2 with 4 to get the worse hitter more PAs, and moved Albies down one spot.

Markakis, Machado and Freeman at the top is the correct answer.

You're completely missing the point of having Machado bat 4th. You're also acting like Acuna is just some scrub. Having Machado bat 4th protects Freeman and puts the best power hitter in a spot to get a lot of RBI's.

[Heyward]

why no talk of Donaldson?

He shouldnt cost as much as Machado does. He's not healthy yet though so trade values down.

[thewupk]

You're completely missing the point of having Machado bat 4th. You're also acting like Acuna is just some scrub. Having Machado bat 4th protects Freeman and puts the best power hitter in a spot to get a lot of RBI's.

You want your best hitters getting the most at bats.

[Southcack77]

why no talk of Donaldson?

He shouldnt cost as much as Machado does. He's not healthy yet though so trade values down.

Donaldson's salary is 23 million or something like that. He very expensive and that matters to the Braves very much. Maybe more than the prospects.

[Carp]

Pass on Donaldson unless it's dirt cheap and they pick up a good chunk of what he's owed.

[EstebanBugatti]

You want your best hitters getting the most at bats.

That is a stupid argument to hit him second. Having him hit 4th would be the best spot. It allows Neck to leadoff and puts a real power threat in the cleanup spot. He will get plenty of ABs. The difference between hitting 2nd, where he'd have less RBIs, and 4th is minimal.

[CyYoung31]

That is a stupid argument to hit him second. Having him hit 4th would be the best spot. It allows Neck to leadoff and puts a real power threat in the cleanup spot. He will get plenty of ABs. The difference between hitting 2nd, where he'd have less RBIs, and 4th is minimal.

You’re correct that the difference over the long haul wouldn’t be much. But, if you’re going to do optimal lineup construction, do it right.

[UNCBlue012]

Who the hell cares. Trout is the best player in the game and hits second 90% if the time.

[AerchAngel]

Donaldson's salary is 23 million or something like that. He very expensive and that matters to the Braves very much. Maybe more than the prospects.

Hard pass on Donaldson. I think he is done, like Ron Cey done or Joey Bats done.

[thewupk]

That is a stupid argument to hit him second. Having him hit 4th would be the best spot. It allows Neck to leadoff and puts a real power threat in the cleanup spot. He will get plenty of ABs. The difference between hitting 2nd, where he'd have less RBIs, and 4th is minimal.

It's not stupid. The opposite actually. You want your best hitter hitting second. RBI's is a pointless individual statistic. What you want is the most runs scored for your team and it's been proven which way is more correct.

[Enscheff]

You're completely missing the point of having Machado bat 4th. You're also acting like Acuna is just some scrub. Having Machado bat 4th protects Freeman and puts the best power hitter in a spot to get a lot of RBI's.

Trust me, I’m not the one missing the point here

[Skeeter31]

It's not stupid. The opposite actually. You want your best hitter hitting second. RBI's is a pointless individual statistic. What you want is the most runs scored for your team and it's been proven which way is more correct.

Exactly. The days of the power hitter hitting in the clean up spot are over. There’s a reason players like trout and judge normally bat in the 2 hole. Over the course of a season the 1 and 2 spots will get more at bats than the 4 spot and having your best hitter get those at bats is what you want.

[Super]

hopefully Allard keeps raising his stock and hopefully he's one of the guys Baltimore loves. i'd deal him in a heartbeat as the centerpiece for Machado, if they would do it.

[clvclv]

hopefully Allard keeps raising his stock and hopefully he's one of the guys Baltimore loves. i'd deal him in a heartbeat as the centerpiece for Machado, if they would do it.

Allard as a centerpiece in a Realmuto deal, Fried as a centerpiece of a Moustakas/Escobar deal, then throw all the money at Machado this winter.

[CJ9]

Allard as a centerpiece in a Realmuto deal, Fried as a centerpiece of a Moustakas/Escobar deal, then throw all the money at Machado this winter.

Allard is nowhere near valuable enough to be the centerpiece for Realmuto.

[Southcack77]

Allard is nowhere near valuable enough to be the centerpiece for Realmuto.

I'd love to get some Arb estimates for Realmuto's last two seasons.

That's on my list of things to become slightly less ignorant of -- estimating arb awards.

What we know about Realmuto's market is that the Marlins have no reason to keep him and he doesn't want to be there. And no one is lining up to meet whatever price they've set on him. It would be weird if Realmuto was the guy they insisted on making a good deal for.

[CyYoung31]

Allard as a centerpiece in a Realmuto deal, Fried as a centerpiece of a Moustakas/Escobar deal, then throw all the money at Machado this winter.

Ignoring the fact that Allard isn’t going to net you Realmuto, please explain to me the rationale of trading valuable prospects for a catcher right now.

[clvclv]

Ignoring the fact that Allard isn’t going to net you Realmuto, please explain to me the rationale of trading valuable prospects for a catcher right now.

He was mentioned above as the centerpiece in a Machado deal - yet I'm the one crawled on?

It's fun to daydream - most folks here take things waaaaay too seriously.

The Catcher tandem is doing a great job, but neither are under contract for next year, and Realmuto upgrades the position for 28 if not 29 teams (you can argue whether he'd even be an upgrade for the Giants). Teams that want to truly contend look to upgrade wherever possible, and acquiring him could provide a double-whammy of sorts when you consider you'd be keeping him away from the other contender consistently linked to him (who happens to reside in your division).

[BeanieAntics]

He was mentioned above as the centerpiece in a Machado deal - yet I'm the one crawled on?

It's fun to daydream - most folks here take things waaaaay too seriously.

The Catcher tandem is doing a great job, but neither are under contract for next year, and Realmuto upgrades the position for 28 if not 29 teams (you can argue whether he'd even be an upgrade for the Giants). Teams that want to truly contend look to upgrade wherever possible, and acquiring him could provide a double-whammy of sorts when you consider you'd be keeping him away from the other contender consistently linked to him (who happens to reside in your division).

Right now I think Realmuto would net more in a trade than Machado. In a vacuum, I would pay more for 2 1/2 seasons of a 4 WAR catcher than I would for 1/2 of a season of a 6-7 WAR 3rd baseman (and especially so if he insisted on playing SS, where he is far less valuable defensively). So I think Allard as a centerpiece for Machado is probably more realistic than Allard as a centerpiece for Realmuto.

[Enscheff]

Ignoring the fact that Allard isn’t going to net you Realmuto, please explain to me the rationale of trading valuable prospects for a catcher right now.

Correct. Allard isn't getting JT, and there is no reason to spend resources upgrading at C when the Braves are currently getting Top 5 production in all of MLB at the position...and that was with Flowers missing significant time.

Just another instance of clv derping. He also thought Jenkins could get Sale, and MAdams could get Odorizzi, so he continues to show a complete lack of understanding about player valuation.

Realmuto could be an option this off season though.

[Enscheff]

Right now I think Realmuto would net more in a trade than Machado. In a vacuum, I would pay more for 2 1/2 seasons of a 4 WAR catcher than I would for 1/2 of a season of a 6-7 WAR 3rd baseman (and especially so if he insisted on playing SS, where he is far less valuable defensively). So I think Allard as a centerpiece for Machado is probably more realistic than Allard as a centerpiece for Realmuto.

Another person who understands player value better than cvlderpclv.

Machado is probably going to project for 2 wins over the final 2 months of the season. At $10M per win, that represents $20M in value. Double it for the contender's premium, and Machado should provide about $40M after he is traded. Subtract the $5M he will make over the final 2 months, and Machado carries a surplus value of about $35M.

Allard is a FV 50 prospect, and those are valued at around $20M. Allard is a perfectly reasonable centerpiece for acquiring Machado as a rental. I'm not sure I'd want to pull the trigger on that unless the Braves are still within 1-2 games of the division lead.

Realmuto is in a whole other realm of player value. He would project for 1 win for the rest of the season after the deadline, which when doubled is $20M. He is making essentially nothing this year, so that $20M is pure surplus. He will probably be projected to produce 6 wins over his 2 remaining years of control while being paid roughly $15M-$20M total. That is an additional $40M-$45M in surplus value, for a total of $60M+ in surplus value.

So no, a $20M pitching prospect is not going to headline the package for a $60M catcher. If the Braves want Realmuto they will have to start with a FV 55 guy and add to it. This off season his value drops to the $40M range, at which point Allard might be a viable centerpiece.

[sturg33]

Another person who understands player value better than cvlderpclv.

Machado is probably going to project for 2 wins over the final 2 months of the season. At $10M per win, that represents $20M in value. Double it for the contender's premium, and Machado should provide about $40M after he is traded. Subtract the $5M he will make over the final 2 months, and Machado carries a surplus value of about $35M.

Allard is a FV 50 prospect, and those are valued at around $20M. Allard is a perfectly reasonable centerpiece for acquiring Machado as a rental. I'm not sure I'd want to pull the trigger on that unless the Braves are still within 1-2 games of the division lead.

Realmuto is in a whole other realm of player value. He would project for 1 win for the rest of the season after the deadline, which when doubled is $20M. He is making essentially nothing this year, so that $20M is pure surplus. He will probably be projected to produce 6 wins over his 2 remaining years of control while being paid roughly $15M-$20M total. That is an additional $40M-$45M in surplus value, for a total of $60M+ in surplus value.

So no, a $20M pitching prospect is not going to headline the package for a $60M catcher. If the Braves want Realmuto they will have to start with a FV 55 guy and add to it. This off season his value drops to the $40M range, at which point Allard might be a viable centerpiece.

Is the contender premium actually double or is that just your gut assumption? Seems high but I haven't really tracked past deals

[Southcack77]

Is the contender premium actually double or is that just your gut assumption? Seems high but I haven't really tracked past deals

Depends on the player, the market, the timing and the teams involved.

[Enscheff]

Is the contender premium actually double or is that just your gut assumption? Seems high but I haven't really tracked past deals

It’s just a way to account for players being more valuable to clubs when they know they will be playing in October. The premium for elite BP arms may be 3x or 4x.

The caveat is obviously that the player will be making an impact in the playoffs, which is why back end SPs aren’t very valuable at the deadline...they don’t pitch in the playoffs. That’s also why elite BP arms are extremely expensive...teams can leverage them a lot in postseason series with so many off days in between.

[Southcack77]

NYTT: Will the Braves be one of the five best teams in the NL at the end of the year?

9:11
Jeff Sullivan: In terms of record, or true talent?

9:12
Jeff Sullivan: In terms of record, they already have a leg up

9:12
Jeff Sullivan: I’m a little bit of a Braves skeptic, but at the same time, I have a feeling they could be the most likely destination for Machado. So obviously that would be a massive improvement


Take that, Law.

[clvclv]

Right now I think Realmuto would net more in a trade than Machado. In a vacuum, I would pay more for 2 1/2 seasons of a 4 WAR catcher than I would for 1/2 of a season of a 6-7 WAR 3rd baseman (and especially so if he insisted on playing SS, where he is far less valuable defensively). So I think Allard as a centerpiece for Machado is probably more realistic than Allard as a centerpiece for Realmuto.

I wouldn't disagree at all - other than I really don't think Allard as the centerpiece of a Machado deal is particularly realistic either.

Since the post mentioning that "hope" was made, I didn't see the harm in wishing for a little more while daydreaming.

The funny thing is that His Highness - Dealer Of Blackjack believes that ANYBODY in the Os front office can even find this Player/Prospect Value Chart made of solid gold following the Chris Davis contract.

[thewupk]

I wouldn't disagree at all - other than I really don't think Allard as the centerpiece of a Machado deal is particularly realistic either.

Since the post mentioning that "hope" was made, I didn't see the harm in wishing for a little more while daydreaming.

The funny thing is that His Highness - Dealer Of Blackjack believes that ANYBODY in the Os front office can even find this Player/Prospect Value Chart made of solid gold following the Chris Davis contract.

All things considered I would think Allard being the centerpiece of a Machado deal is pretty realistic. The O's seemingly are one of the few dinosaur front office's left in town and they likely value Allard more than others due to his actual results in the minors compared to how he's achieved it.

All and all Machado just isn't going to bring some kind of kings ransom. Those days are over. We know what Machado's surplus value is going to be at the trade deadline. At this point it's about plug and play and who the O's value the most internally. The Braves should be able to make a play without really damaging the farm at all.

[Hudson2]

All things considered I would think Allard being the centerpiece of a Machado deal is pretty realistic. The O's seemingly are one of the few dinosaur front office's left in town and they likely value Allard more than others due to his actual results in the minors compared to how he's achieved it.

All and all Machado just isn't going to bring some kind of kings ransom. Those days are over. We know what Machado's surplus value is going to be at the trade deadline. At this point it's about plug and play and who the O's value the most internally. The Braves should be able to make a play without really damaging the farm at all.

If we are still in it (which I think we will be) i'd no doubt trade Allard for Machado.

[Heyward]

Losing Allard would hurt but if Machado hasnt been dealt by deadline week and we're still in contention of the division, i'd do Allard for Machado depending what else would be involved.

[clvclv]

All things considered I would think Allard being the centerpiece of a Machado deal is pretty realistic. The O's seemingly are one of the few dinosaur front office's left in town and they likely value Allard more than others due to his actual results in the minors compared to how he's achieved it.

All and all Machado just isn't going to bring some kind of kings ransom. Those days are over. We know what Machado's surplus value is going to be at the trade deadline. At this point it's about plug and play and who the O's value the most internally. The Braves should be able to make a play without really damaging the farm at all.

I'm just not so sure that that group isn't convinced that they can do better than Allard with the comp pick they'd get if they held on to Machado, and given the lack of respect he gets from the numbers community I'm not so sure that someone over there wouldn't rather have the pick if Allard's the best headliner they get offered.

[thewupk]

I'm just not so sure that that group isn't convinced that they can do better than Allard with the comp pick they'd get if they held on to Machado, and given the lack of respect he gets from the numbers community I'm not so sure that someone over there wouldn't rather have the pick if Allard's the best headliner they get offered.

I doubt the the QO pick lands in any top 100 lists out of the gate.

And the premise is the O's not being into the advanced numbers and base their value solely on his result sin aaa, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they value Allard as a top 50 prospect.

[BeanieAntics]

I doubt the the QO pick lands in any top 100 lists out of the gate.

And the premise is the O's not being into the advanced numbers and base their value solely on his result sin aaa, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they value Allard as a top 50 prospect.

Even if they value him as just a top 100-150 prospect, that is still probably more valuable than the pick they would get through the QO.

[Southcack77]

Even if they value him as just a top 100-150 prospect, that is still probably more valuable than the pick they would get through the QO.

But maybe not more valuable than the bonus pool money ... but I have no idea how the Orioles operate.

Their reputation is that they are mostly interested in contending and rarely sell so close to majors assets may be their preference. Probably a bad move considering what they have to deal with in their division.

[Enscheff]

I doubt the the QO pick lands in any top 100 lists out of the gate.

And the premise is the O's not being into the advanced numbers and base their value solely on his result sin aaa, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they value Allard as a top 50 prospect.


Even if they value him as just a top 100-150 prospect, that is still probably more valuable than the pick they would get through the QO.


But maybe not more valuable than the bonus pool money ... but I have no idea how the Orioles operate.

Their reputation is that they are mostly interested in contending and rarely sell so close to majors assets may be their preference. Probably a bad move considering what they have to deal with in their division.

Correct, correct, correct.

AA is in position to take advantage of either KC or the O's, both of which are at the bottom of the brain pan rankings in modern baseball.

The fact I am hesitant to trade Allard for Machado is likely a good sign that he is a fair centerpiece.

[sturg33]

No interest in Moose at all.

Give me Machado for Allard all day of were contending

[clvclv]

I doubt the the QO pick lands in any top 100 lists out of the gate.

And the premise is the O's not being into the advanced numbers and base their value solely on his result sin aaa, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they value Allard as a top 50 prospect.

Exactly what everyone would hope - the problem is that they're going to be dragged (kicking and screaming) into them at some point.

You guys have been screaming about how Allard can't be successful at the MLB level for months despite his success - what makes you think that somebody in Baltimore finally listens as well? It's not like they can make the Davis contract disappear, so moving him (Machado) clears $17 million for next season - whether it's via free-agency OR trade, and they KNOW that's the money they'll have to replace him no matter where/when he goes. Everybody loves to beat up on JS around here - go back and look at the decision-maker's (Angelos) history in Baltimore - exactly what makes you think he's going to listen to anybody screaming "take the best offer on the table" when he's never done it before??? Would the Orioles be any better in 2019 with Allard and Moose than they are in 2018 with Machado?

You guys have screamed about the Braves being "anti-numbers" for years, what makes you think the Orioles are suddenly going to change in the next 6 weeks when they've been even worse?

Angelos is every bit as old-school as you guys scream about The Johns and Bobby being, and he actually has the final say since he's the one writing the checks. If he'd have had any sense, he'd have taken Andujar for Machado from the Yankees straight-up last winter, but his hatred of the Yankees (and lack of willingness to try to adjust to today's game) wouldn't let him.

[Carp]

Another person who understands player value better than cvlderpclv.

Machado is probably going to project for 2 wins over the final 2 months of the season. At $10M per win, that represents $20M in value. Double it for the contender's premium, and Machado should provide about $40M after he is traded. Subtract the $5M he will make over the final 2 months, and Machado carries a surplus value of about $35M.

Allard is a FV 50 prospect, and those are valued at around $20M. Allard is a perfectly reasonable centerpiece for acquiring Machado as a rental. I'm not sure I'd want to pull the trigger on that unless the Braves are still within 1-2 games of the division lead.

Realmuto is in a whole other realm of player value. He would project for 1 win for the rest of the season after the deadline, which when doubled is $20M. He is making essentially nothing this year, so that $20M is pure surplus. He will probably be projected to produce 6 wins over his 2 remaining years of control while being paid roughly $15M-$20M total. That is an additional $40M-$45M in surplus value, for a total of $60M+ in surplus value.

So no, a $20M pitching prospect is not going to headline the package for a $60M catcher. If the Braves want Realmuto they will have to start with a FV 55 guy and add to it. This off season his value drops to the $40M range, at which point Allard might be a viable centerpiece.

Personally, I want nothing to do with Realmuto as we are getting good production from Flowers and Suzuki. Just resign them both in the off-season. But, I do think we could get Realmuto without giving up a 55 FV prospect. Allard himself obviously wouldn't be a centerpiece. But combining 2 or 3 of Allard, Waters, Fried, Touki, and Cumberland would put you fairly close to the surplus value that Realmuto possesses. But again, I would rather avoid Realmuto.

[DirkPiggler]

Personally, I want nothing to do with Realmuto as we are getting good production from Flowers and Suzuki. Just resign them both in the off-season. But, I do think we could get Realmuto without giving up a 55 FV prospect. Allard himself obviously wouldn't be a centerpiece. But combining 2 or 3 of Allard, Waters, Fried, Touki, and Cumberland would put you fairly close to the surplus value that Realmuto possesses. But again, I would rather avoid Realmuto.

Resigning Flowers and Suzuki makes sense, because we seem to have found a way to keep two older guys productive at catcher without wearing either of them down. Either of them would likely lose productivity if forced to catch 130-140 games. Assuming neither of them takes an opportunity elsewhere to be the full-time catcher, we should keep trying this tandem on a year-by-year basis until it shows signs of not working.

[Enscheff]

Exactly what everyone would hope - the problem is that they're going to be dragged (kicking and screaming) into them at some point.

You guys have been screaming about how Allard can't be successful at the MLB level for months despite his success - what makes you think that somebody in Baltimore finally listens as well? It's not like they can make the Davis contract disappear, so moving him (Machado) clears $17 million for next season - whether it's via free-agency OR trade, and they KNOW that's the money they'll have to replace him no matter where/when he goes. Everybody loves to beat up on JS around here - go back and look at the decision-maker's (Angelos) history in Baltimore - exactly what makes you think he's going to listen to anybody screaming "take the best offer on the table" when he's never done it before??? Would the Orioles be any better in 2019 with Allard and Moose than they are in 2018 with Machado?

You guys have screamed about the Braves being "anti-numbers" for years, what makes you think the Orioles are suddenly going to change in the next 6 weeks when they've been even worse?

Angelos is every bit as old-school as you guys scream about The Johns and Bobby being, and he actually has the final say since he's the one writing the checks. If he'd have had any sense, he'd have taken Andujar for Machado from the Yankees straight-up last winter, but his hatred of the Yankees (and lack of willingness to try to adjust to today's game) wouldn't let him.

This comment doesn’t even make sense. The train of “thought” isn’t even followable.

[thewupk]

Exactly what everyone would hope - the problem is that they're going to be dragged (kicking and screaming) into them at some point.

You guys have been screaming about how Allard can't be successful at the MLB level for months despite his success - what makes you think that somebody in Baltimore finally listens as well? It's not like they can make the Davis contract disappear, so moving him (Machado) clears $17 million for next season - whether it's via free-agency OR trade, and they KNOW that's the money they'll have to replace him no matter where/when he goes. Everybody loves to beat up on JS around here - go back and look at the decision-maker's (Angelos) history in Baltimore - exactly what makes you think he's going to listen to anybody screaming "take the best offer on the table" when he's never done it before??? Would the Orioles be any better in 2019 with Allard and Moose than they are in 2018 with Machado?

You guys have screamed about the Braves being "anti-numbers" for years, what makes you think the Orioles are suddenly going to change in the next 6 weeks when they've been even worse?

Angelos is every bit as old-school as you guys scream about The Johns and Bobby being, and he actually has the final say since he's the one writing the checks. If he'd have had any sense, he'd have taken Andujar for Machado from the Yankees straight-up last winter, but his hatred of the Yankees (and lack of willingness to try to adjust to today's game) wouldn't let him.

We don't which is why they are likely to get abused in a trade for Machado whether it's the Braves or someone else.

[BeanieAntics]

This comment doesn’t even make sense. The train of “thought” isn’t even followable.

James Joyce would be proud.

[msstate7]

What's the board's preference...
Give up allard+ for Machado or wisler/fried type player for mous? Personally, I rather go mous unless we feel having Machado gives us some sort of inside track to signing Machado long term.

[bravesfanforlife88]

Morosi was interviewed the other day and says the braves have not yet reached out to baltimore to discuss machado, however, if they do, it would likely extend to a reliever as well....i wonder if they may wait to see how britton does before pulling the trigger on a move?

[Southcack77]

What's the board's preference...
Give up allard+ for Machado or wisler/fried type player for mous? Personally, I rather go mous unless we feel having Machado gives us some sort of inside track to signing Machado long term.

Mous isn't a particularly significant upgrade, IMO. If it's free fine. But I don't think picking him up would be a big deal.

I'd rather improve the relievers.

[Hudson2]

Morosi was interviewed the other day and says the braves have not yet reached out to baltimore to discuss machado, however, if they do, it would likely extend to a reliever as well....i wonder if they may wait to see how britton does before pulling the trigger on a move?

The more I think about it the more I really like the idea of getting Machado. I just hope we don’t trade Wright or something dumb like that to do it.

[EstebanBugatti]

Glad to see people are finally starting to come around to the idea of trading for Machado. He is the perfect fit for this Braves team and the price won't be as high as some think. The Braves could still re-sign him as well to keep him around longer. Then they could use Riley as the centerpiece in a trade for a true Ace.

[NYCBrave]

Glad to see people are finally starting to come around to the idea of trading for Machado. He is the perfect fit for this Braves team and the price won't be as high as some think. The Braves could still re-sign him as well to keep him around longer. Then they could use Riley as the centerpiece in a trade for a true Ace.

What gives anyone the idea we could outbid the major market teams to sign Machado? Doesn't make much sense.

[UNCBlue012]

Morosi was interviewed the other day and says the braves have not yet reached out to baltimore to discuss machado, however, if they do, it would likely extend to a reliever as well....i wonder if they may wait to see how britton does before pulling the trigger on a move? if he’s healthy, Machado and Britton would be massive upgrades. I just don’t think I personally make the trade unless we have confirmation that Machado will resign. We’d lose too much.

[EstebanBugatti]

What gives anyone the idea we could outbid the major market teams to sign Machado? Doesn't make much sense.

The fact that our farm system is top 3 in all of baseball. We have much more desirable prospects that Baltimore would prefer. Trading him to Atl instead of the Yankees also takes him out of the AL.

[NYCBrave]

The fact that our farm system is top 3 in all of baseball. We have much more desirable prospects that Baltimore would prefer. Trading him to Atl instead of the Yankees also takes him out of the AL.

I said SIGN as in free agent this off season. You insinuated that if we traded for him we'd have a good chance to sign him next year...

[EstebanBugatti]

I said SIGN as in free agent this off season. You insinuated that if we traded for him we'd have a good chance to sign him next year...

I never said that at all. I simply said that they could re-sign him. The Braves have a ton of free money to spend this offseason and not that many glaring holes. Spending big on Machado is very much doable for AA.

[Southcack77]

What gives anyone the idea we could outbid the major market teams to sign Machado? Doesn't make much sense.

Absence of other major payroll obligations.

[Enscheff]

What's the board's preference...
Give up allard+ for Machado or wisler/fried type player for mous? Personally, I rather go mous unless we feel having Machado gives us some sort of inside track to signing Machado long term.

If the Nats run away with the division by the deadline and the Braves are fighting for a single elimination WC game, I want them to get the cheapest upgrade at 3b possible.

If they are legitimately fighting the Nats for the division and a spot in a 5 game series, with the WC berth as a likely fall back option, I would be all for them spending the assets needed to acquire Machado.

Machado is a legit difference maker. Everyone else is a solid upgrade that’s more about the optics of making an acquisition.

[Enscheff]

I never said that at all. I simply said that they could re-sign him. The Braves have a ton of free money to spend this offseason and not that many glaring holes. Spending big on Machado is very much doable for AA.

The Braves will not be signing or resigning Machado this offseason. The largest FA contract in the history of the Braves isn’t even $100M, so aren’t suddenly giving Machado 4x that amount when Riley looks to be a solid 2 win player for free.

There is a decent chance they will be trading for him though.

[EstebanBugatti]

The Braves will not be signing or resigning Machado this offseason. The largest FA contract in the history of the Braves isn’t even $100M, so aren’t suddenly giving Machado 4x that amount when Riley looks to be a solid 2 win player for free.

There is a decent chance they will be trading for him though.

Stop being an ignorant toolbag for 5 minutes. I bet you can't do it.

[BeanieAntics]

Stop being an ignorant toolbag for 5 minutes. I bet you can't do it.

That was literally the most benign comment I've ever seen Enscheff make.

[nsacpi]

What's the board's preference...
Give up allard+ for Machado or wisler/fried type player for mous? Personally, I rather go mous unless we feel having Machado gives us some sort of inside track to signing Machado long term.

I would go with the cheaper reinforcement because in general I think paying the contenders premium is bad business.

[BeanieAntics]

I would go with the cheaper reinforcement because in general I think paying the contenders premium is bad business.

I agree. Sometimes it is justified in very specific circumstances, but in most cases (including ours), I would avoid the premium if possible.

[bravesfanforlife88]

I’d rather do something sooner than waiting for the deadline. Why not get the most you can out of these guys if you give up anything

[zbhargrove]

I’d rather do something sooner than waiting for the deadline. Why not get the most you can out of these guys if you give up anything

I'd rather do something now as well... with the emergence of Folty and Newk (and if Folty isn't hurt too bad), a healthy Soroka, Teheran, and some combination of Sanchez/McCarthy/Fried/Wisler, etc... adding Machado and a big bullpen arm (Britton?) would make this team very scary.

[UNCBlue012]

The Braves will not be signing or resigning Machado this offseason. The largest FA contract in the history of the Braves isn’t even $100M, so aren’t suddenly giving Machado 4x that amount when Riley looks to be a solid 2 win player for free.

There is a decent chance they will be trading for him though. the Braves likely will not, you’re right. But saying they won’t is silly bevause you have no idea what they will do. Just stop

[bravesfanforlife88]

Moose hitting about .224 against lefties this season and down to about .259 avg overall....

Didn’t see those numbers before starting this thread but based on that performance does he really improve us?

[zbhargrove]

I will be highly disappointed acquiring Moose at this point... I see similar production at the plate and less production defense wise with Camargo. If you want to upgrade 3rd... gotta go big or just stick.

[Enscheff]

That was literally the most benign comment I've ever seen Enscheff make.

I think the last few weeks have shown I’m not the problem with these boards...

[Enscheff]

the Braves likely will not, you’re right. But saying they won’t is silly bevause you have no idea what they will do. Just stop

Care to wager?

[TheBravos]

Care to wager?

Machado is a pipe dream. Too much to give up for a rental when we are not really contenders and no way on earth they give him a 300 mil plus contract.

Riley will never be Machado, but he will give you above average production on rookie pay for years. When you have a budget like we do...it would be an absolutely boneheaded move to sign him.

Machado would have to perform like Trout EVERY year of his contract to take as big of a percentage of our payroll as he would take....and be worth it.

You sign free agents where you have big holes and no one in the farm system to replace them. You don’t sign a player when you have a top 100 prospect in AAA at the same position.

[Southcack77]

I will be highly disappointed acquiring Moose at this point... I see similar production at the plate and less production defense wise with Camargo. If you want to upgrade 3rd... gotta go big or just stick.

I agree.

More power though. And more roster depth. But otherwise not a big needle mover for me.

[Southcack77]

Machado is a pipe dream. Too much to give up for a rental when we are not really contenders and no way on earth they give him a 300 mil plus contract.

Riley will never be Machado, but he will give you above average production on rookie pay for years. When you have a budget like we do...it would be an absolutely boneheaded move to sign him.

Machado would have to perform like Trout EVERY year of his contract to take as big of a percentage of our payroll as he would take....and be worth it.

You sign free agents where you have big holes and no one in the farm system to replace them. You don’t sign a player when you have a top 100 prospect in AAA at the same position.

Braves have a big hole if LF or 3b and in the middle of the order.

They have no other big contracts except Freddie.

They probably won’t sign a franchise level free agent but to act like Riley should be a reason why is kind of funny.

Riley can force the issue in LF if he’s that good.

[clvclv]

I would go with the cheaper reinforcement because in general I think paying the contenders premium is bad business.

Not singling you out obviously, but the question that drives everyone here nuts is likely what keeps AA up at night too...

Not to mention you'd still have to deal with the fact that Machado has clearly stated his preference to remain at SS.

Is that a problem that could likely be handled reasonably between all parties involved? Sure - no one would want to look like they were selfish enough to put themselves ahead of the team in a situation like this. It would make them all look bad - and they'd all have plenty to potentially lose. Machado for risking the "chemistry" by forcing Swanson to move (or be traded in the event he were to re-sign), Swanson in the long run if he were to make waves by mentioning it (and heaven knows some reporter somewhere will find out he did - even if it wasn't mentioned publicly). AA for looking like he didn't believe this team is good enough to win it all if he has the chance to get him by not giving up what it takes.

It's obvious that many of us fall on different sides when it comes to believing whether "chemistry" actually exists - and whether it can actually have much to do with winning if it even does - but is it worth taking that chance for the price it will cost IF that is for two months? Call it chemistry or whatever you'd like - this team has now been pretty special long enough that you can't really call it "lucky". Whether you're an Allard believer or not makes little difference - offering him up likely gets you a Closer with multiple years of control like Iglesias or Hand which would certainly be a huge upgrade. You could go even further by offering up lower-tier prospects in a deal for Moose and Escobar. Then suddenly you've got an unbelievably lights-out pen with Iglesias/Hand, Escobar, Vizcaino, Minter, Winkler, Freeman, and Carle.

If you're not an Allard supporter that's completely understandable, but don't waste a chip like that on a rental. Riley's coming whether you believe in him or not, and you're only looking for a two month upgrade at 3B - which Machado doesn't accomplish if he's playing SS. Get someone with more control if you're going to let Allard go. I'd love to see what our offense could do with a Machado addition as much as anyone, but even with him there are no guarantees. If Riley's not proven enough by the end of the season to believe he's your answer, throw all that money at Machado or Donaldson this winter - but keep Allard and Riley to package and fill another hole.

Most have been consistent about preaching patience - not moving too soon and trading valuable prospect capital BEFORE you're sure the piece you're getting is the icing on the cake. That's worked very well so far - not overpaying for Archer or another SP, not taking the bait when other upgrades have been made available for too much in return. This is when that advice becomes the most important. If you think this team is good enough - and getting Machado puts it over the top - then it's time to identify yourself as a "pozzy". That's great - and welcome to the crowd. But if you're not convinced that trading for Machado now makes this team a legitimate contender THIS season (or gives you a leg up when it comes to signing him this winter), keep those valuable pieces until you're getting something that's going to help in the long-term. That patience appears to have worked with Folty and Newk, certainly has a good chance to work with Soroka, and exercising it with Gohara, Wright, and Anderson stands a good chance to pay huge dividends.

If you believe this team has a chance to win in 2018, a Machado trade is worth the gamble. If you don't, it isn't.

[TheBravos]

Braves have a big hole if LF or 3b and in the middle of the order.

They have no other big contracts except Freddie.

They probably won’t sign a franchise level free agent but to act like Riley should be a reason why is kind of funny.

Riley can force the issue in LF if he’s that good.


Of course I would love to have Machado. It’s not going to happen. I will be glad to come on here and announce that I was dead wrong. It ain’t gonna happen though.

I’m not really worried about 3rd starting next year. It will not be a hole. We will not have a super star there, but will have above average production from that spot.

I want to have the money to sign our young core guys two years down the road.

Would you rather have Machado, or Newk, Soroka and Folty to long term deals...that’s what it will come down to. You would definitely loose Freeman past his current contract also. I would rather have Freeman all day long to an extension.

[nsacpi]

A's have fallen back a bit. I think Lowrie will be available.

Options include Machado, Moose, Beltre, Lowrie, Frazier, Solarte, Donaldson. Anyone else?

[msstate7]

A's have fallen back a bit. I think Lowrie will be available.

Options include Machado, Moose, Beltre, Lowrie, Frazier, Solarte, Donaldson. Anyone else?

Now you taking... lowrie is my favorite after Machado

[zbhargrove]

Machado is a pipe dream. Too much to give up for a rental when we are not really contenders and no way on earth they give him a 300 mil plus contract.

Riley will never be Machado, but he will give you above average production on rookie pay for years. When you have a budget like we do...it would be an absolutely boneheaded move to sign him.

Machado would have to perform like Trout EVERY year of his contract to take as big of a percentage of our payroll as he would take....and be worth it.

You sign free agents where you have big holes and no one in the farm system to replace them. You don’t sign a player when you have a top 100 prospect in AAA at the same position.

Its a fact Riley will give us above average production? A player with a glaring strikeout problem with no at bats in the majors (I like the guy, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here)? Andy Marte was a better prospect and see how that turned out. He was never even average, RIP. And how in the world can you say we are not contenders if we added Machado and a good bullpen arm? There are no holes in the lineup at that point, our power would be fantastic, and if Folty, Newk, and Soroka keep growing and stay healthy... that's a fantastic rotation.

[zbhargrove]

Now you taking... lowrie is my favorite after Machado

I think my order of preference is Machado, Beltre, Lowrie, then Solarte

If its Moose, Frazier, Donaldson - I don't want them... I think Donaldson is declining rapidly, Frazier too... and Moose is regressing big time. Beltre may be aging quite a bit and may not be hitting for as much power, but he's still a hit machine. Lowrie is solid if he stays healthy... Solarte is a great player to have as he is productive and versatile... him, Culberson, and Camargo would give us lots of flexibility. And Machado could be a big time difference maker.

[zbhargrove]

The Braves will not be signing or resigning Machado this offseason. The largest FA contract in the history of the Braves isn’t even $100M, so aren’t suddenly giving Machado 4x that amount when Riley looks to be a solid 2 win player for free.

There is a decent chance they will be trading for him though.

You're probably right... but that type of player is prob the only likely type a team like the Braves would consider, being that he's only 25, there's not as much of a chance he has a ton of wasted years if he stays healthy.

[Southcack77]

I think my order of preference is Machado, Beltre, Lowrie, then Solarte

If its Moose, Frazier, Donaldson - I don't want them... I think Donaldson is declining rapidly, Frazier too... and Moose is regressing big time. Beltre may be aging quite a bit and may not be hitting for as much power, but he's still a hit machine. Lowrie is solid if he stays healthy... Solarte is a great player to have as he is productive and versatile... him, Culberson, and Camargo would give us lots of flexibility. And Machado could be a big time difference maker.

I don’t believe Donaldson fits the budget.

I think he’s probably just banged up rather than washed up though.

[Southcack77]

Of course I would love to have Machado. It’s not going to happen. I will be glad to come on here and announce that I was dead wrong. It ain’t gonna happen though.

I’m not really worried about 3rd starting next year. It will not be a hole. We will not have a super star there, but will have above average production from that spot.

I want to have the money to sign our young core guys two years down the road.

Would you rather have Machado, or Newk, Soroka and Folty to long term deals...that’s what it will come down to. You would definitely loose Freeman past his current contract also. I would rather have Freeman all day long to an extension.

There is no question I’d rather have an elite bat nowin the middle of the order during a contention window rather than get additional years out of rotation pieces seven years from now. Not even close.

I’m not worried about keeping young guys just because they happened to be Braves prospects unless they want to give discounts.

And pitchers much less so. People bragged on the Teheran extension and the perceived value of it is now a liability really.

[Southcack77]

This would be Teheran’s last year of control without the extension.

The supposed value of his extension was controlling next season and getting an option for 2020.

If Teheran were a free agent, would anyone even want Atlanta to try and re-sign him at any price?

[zbhargrove]

Of course I would love to have Machado. It’s not going to happen. I will be glad to come on here and announce that I was dead wrong. It ain’t gonna happen though.

I’m not really worried about 3rd starting next year. It will not be a hole. We will not have a super star there, but will have above average production from that spot.

I want to have the money to sign our young core guys two years down the road.

Would you rather have Machado, or Newk, Soroka and Folty to long term deals...that’s what it will come down to. You would definitely loose Freeman past his current contract also. I would rather have Freeman all day long to an extension.

No, I don't want to sign starting pitchers to long term deals because their arms fall off too easily... I don't know you can just assume we will have above average production at 3rd... Riley doesn't guarantee that, no one on the roster guarantees that. Machado and a reliever makes us easily a legit contender this year.

[sturg33]

No, I don't want to sign starting pitchers to long term deals because their arms fall off too easily.

Feels like the long term pitching contracts (Sabathia, Scherzer, Grienke) have held up better than the hitters (Pujols, Fielder, Cabrera, Teixera, etc.)

I think it's because elite pitchers can still be effective in their 30's... whereas elite hitters just can't keep up with the velocity as they age

[zbhargrove]

Feels like the long term pitching contracts (Sabathia, Scherzer, Grienke) have held up better than the hitters (Pujols, Fielder, Cabrera, Teixera, etc.)

I think it's because elite pitchers can still be effective in their 30's... whereas elite hitters just can't keep up with the velocity as they age

Certainly... but deciding which of ours will turn into and stick with elite/healthy status could be a roll of the dice. All the hitters you named are First Baseman... Cabrera and Fielder were very out of shape and didn't care to get in shape. Pujols really suffered from injuries but has still at least been a solid player (until last year really) into his late 30s... Teixera also was not very athletic and suffered from injuries and hit 30 homers at the age of 35.

[clvclv]

This would be Teheran’s last year of control without the extension.

The supposed value of his extension was controlling next season and getting an option for 2020.

If Teheran were a free agent, would anyone even want Atlanta to try and re-sign him at any price?

Why wouldn't you?

The answer would be "no" if you're 100% convinced there's no regression lurking in Folty and Newk's futures and if you're an absolute believer in Gohara, Allard, or Wright as members of the 2019 rotation.

Are you that guy?

If you don't keep Julio for depth, your current choices for "wily veteran SPs" are McCarthy and Anibal. Which of those three would you prefer to keep around - especially if you plan on contending?

[CrimsonCowboy]

Got an alert on my phone saying the Orioles and Diamondbacks are discussing with Machado being the conversation.

[Carp]

Feels like the long term pitching contracts (Sabathia, Scherzer, Grienke) have held up better than the hitters (Pujols, Fielder, Cabrera, Teixera, etc.)

I think it's because elite pitchers can still be effective in their 30's... whereas elite hitters just can't keep up with the velocity as they age

Miggy was actually still churning along pretty well this year before the biceps injury. Not elite anymore, but still a good hitter. His 2017 was likely due in large part to the back injury he suffered in the WBC. You also have Joey Votto continuing to play at a high level into his mid 30's.

[sturg33]

Miggy was actually still churning along pretty well this year before the biceps injury. Not elite anymore, but still a good hitter. His 2017 was likely due in large part to the back injury he suffered in the WBC. You also have Joey Votto continuing to play at a high level into his mid 30's.

Miggy will be the worst contract in MLB history and his injury this year is only a small part of that

[chop2chip]

Miggy will be the worst contract in MLB history and his injury this year is only a small part of that

If Miggy’s contract is the worst, Chris Davis’s is the second worst. -2 WAR this year and signed through 2022 with annual payments due to him through 2037. What in the world was Angelos thinking with that one

[sturg33]

If Miggy’s contract is the worst, Chris Davis’s is the second worst. -2 WAR this year and signed through 2022 with annual payments due to him through 2037. What in the world was Angelos thinking with that one

Miggy owed $162M AFTER this year

[zbhargrove]

Yeah Miggy's contract is easily the worst ever in history. It is almost insane how much money is left. It's not even close to Chris Davis.

[AerchAngel]

If Harper continues to be Gorman Thomas, Jack Clark or Dave Kingman, do you feel it is risky giving him 40 mil a year?

[zbhargrove]

If Harper continues to be Gorman Thoma, Jack Clark or Dave Kingman, do you feel it is risky giving him 40 mil a year?

Yeah I don't know if I'd touch Harper with a 60 foot pole at this point given what he will cost on name alone

[AerchAngel]

Yeah I don't know if I'd touch Harper with a 60 foot pole at this point given what he will cost on name alone

Aw HELL NAW would be my answer. One year Rob Deer, 50 bombs, 160 k's .210, then Miggy Cabrera 40 bombs, 120k's and batting .310.

Too risky for me that would take up 33% of your payroll.

[chop2chip]

Miggy owed $162M AFTER this year
Except there’s still a good possibility that’s Miggy will provide at least some value. Davis is below replacement already and still owed a $110 million after this year.

[Tapate50]

Except there’s still a good possibility that’s Miggy will provide at least some value. Davis is below replacement already and still owed a $110 million after this year.

This.

[jpx7]

Except there’s still a good possibility that’s Miggy will provide at least some value. Davis is below replacement already and still owed a $110 million after this year.

This.

Yea, the Davis deal is way worse, if for no other reason than Cabrera was a generational talent to bet on, and Davis clearly wasn’t. Tough that injuries have felled Cabrera—but, like Enscheff belabors, time is rarely kind to 1Bs, even “athletic” ones like Pujols or Cabrera, who both began their careers at other positions.

[thewupk]

Feels like the long term pitching contracts (Sabathia, Scherzer, Grienke) have held up better than the hitters (Pujols, Fielder, Cabrera, Teixera, etc.)

I think it's because elite pitchers can still be effective in their 30's... whereas elite hitters just can't keep up with the velocity as they age

Those hitters all have one thing in common.

[thewupk]

Yea, the Davis deal is way worse, if for no other reason than Cabrera was a generational talent to bet on, and Davis clearly wasn’t. Tough that injuries have felled Cabrera—but, like Enscheff belabors, time is rarely kind to 1Bs, even “athletic” ones like Pujols or Cabrera, who both began their careers at other positions.

Words to remember when the extent Freeman crowd gets too rowdy.

[clvclv]

Words to remember when the extent Freeman crowd gets too rowdy.

Which member of that crowd has "gotten rowdy"?

People that have mentioned an extension have talked about tacking on a couple years to his deal to keep him here as long as you've got control of Acuna/Albies/Swanson and most of the current group of Pitchers - at what point has anyone mentioned a Miggy or Davis-like contract for him in his late 30s?

[Southcack77]

Yea, the Davis deal is way worse, if for no other reason than Cabrera was a generational talent to bet on, and Davis clearly wasn’t. Tough that injuries have felled Cabrera—but, like Enscheff belabors, time is rarely kind to 1Bs, even “athletic” ones like Pujols or Cabrera, who both began their careers at other positions.

No position group ages particularly well. 1B tends to be better than some.

I think the bigger lesson is that you are probably going to regret committing to pay a lot of money to a player in their mid and late 30s.

Or perhaps to any player at all.

In truth, Texeira, Pujols, and Cabrera aged pretty gracefully. Cabrera might still be awesome when healthy.

Fielder really got hurt before he got very far into his decline.

If you are making a decision on Freddie, you'd probably do better looking at his hitting profile and compare him to guys you think had similar body types, athleticism, work ethic. And you'd still have a pretty good chance of being wrong.

[NYCBrave]

Which member of that crowd has "gotten rowdy"?

People that have mentioned an extension have talked about tacking on a couple years to his deal to keep him here as long as you've got control of Acuna/Albies/Swanson and most of the current group of Pitchers - at what point has anyone mentioned a Miggy or Davis-like contract for him in his late 30s?

I'm in the population whod love to see if we can tack on some years with an extension. My question for everyone hypothetically if Freeman plays out this contract and leaves after the next 3 1/2 years, assuming he remains at his production of the past few years, would the Braves eventually reitre his number?

[thewupk]

Which member of that crowd has "gotten rowdy"?

People that have mentioned an extension have talked about tacking on a couple years to his deal to keep him here as long as you've got control of Acuna/Albies/Swanson and most of the current group of Pitchers - at what point has anyone mentioned a Miggy or Davis-like contract for him in his late 30s?

I'm not calling anyone out specifically. But this will happen at some point.

[Super]

Texeira, Pujols, and Cabrera aged pretty gracefully. Cabrera might still be awesome when healthy.



you also have to consider pujols is legitimately 2 years older than everyone thought.

[Nerfherders]

It sure does seem like declines are happening sooner for older players than they did, even before the steroid era. Back in the 70's and 80's you'd still regularly see players playing for 20 years. Nowadays players are only lasting until 35-36.

[thewupk]

It sure does seem like declines are happening sooner for older players than they did, even before the steroid era. Back in the 70's and 80's you'd still regularly see players playing for 20 years. Nowadays players are only lasting until 35-36.

Increased pitcher velocity is likely a big contributor to this

[Enscheff]

It sure does seem like declines are happening sooner for older players than they did, even before the steroid era. Back in the 70's and 80's you'd still regularly see players playing for 20 years. Nowadays players are only lasting until 35-36.

Back then teams didn't now just how bad those old players were, so they were kept around because they were veterans. The entire FA bidding system relies on that fact.

Now that teams can accurately determine how good players are, they are realizing older players are not good. This revelation is wreaking havoc in the FA market, and will almost certainly lead to major changes to the pay structure for MLB in the next CBA.

Boras correctly stated this last off season, "if teams aren't going to pay for past performance anymore, they are going to have to start paying more for current performance". We are due for some real labor strife in the not so distant future.

[jpx7]

Increased pitcher velocity is likely a big contributor to this

It’s not my favorite trend, but I think you’re right here.

[Southcack77]

It’s not my favorite trend, but I think you’re right here.

But consider this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/older-hitters-are-declining-but-its-not-because-they-cant-stand-the-heat/

[jpx7]

But consider this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/older-hitters-are-declining-but-its-not-because-they-cant-stand-the-heat/

Interesting (and enjoyably puzzling). Thanks.

[zitothebrave]

Feels like the long term pitching contracts (Sabathia, Scherzer, Grienke) have held up better than the hitters (Pujols, Fielder, Cabrera, Teixera, etc.)

I think it's because elite pitchers can still be effective in their 30's... whereas elite hitters just can't keep up with the velocity as they age

That's some selective memory. For starters everyone you selected was a big bodied first baseman with almost all fo them signing after 30.

As far as comparing value between pitchers and hitters, that depends. If you look at the Braves extensions, you have Freeman - Amazing. Tron - Amazing. Kimbrel - Great. Julio - Garbage. Reality is there's no template. There's a **** ton of luck with any free agent signing or extension.