So You Want An Ace???

[clvclv]

Here ya go Mr. Adcox...have at it!!!

http://whensidslid.blogspot.com/2013/10/so-you-want-ace.html

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[Hudson2]

I thought about Max to but with him being a FA after next year and Boras being his agent no way he signs an extension.

[Enscheff]

Here's the money quote:

"I asked a couple of the Baseball America guys (Jim Callis and J. J. Cooper) about a potential package of Alex Wood, Christian Bethancourt, Lucas Sims, and Jose Peraza (4 of the Braves' Top 10 prospects) for Price, and both felt that wouldn't be enough for Tampa in their opinion."

That is a TON to give up for Price, and would be a TON to give up for Max. Wood is a middle rotation LHer, and Sims has Ace potential. This is EXACTLY why I say "hell no" to trading for an Ace. It will simply take too many resources, in both cash and prospcets, to make it happen.

Blow the prospect load for 1 year of an Ace? No chance in hell. Smart teams develope Aces, they do not acquire them in their prime. An Ace would not have gotten the Braves past the Dodgers, and certainly not past the Cards.

[thethe]

So no to a guy who is making a lot of money and has a bunch of mileage on his arm for all those prospects. The farm was weak for a couple of years and is starting to get some nice talent again. Lets develop that talent. We don't need an Ace. Teheran is already here.

[Teheran_49]

Here's the money quote:

"I asked a couple of the Baseball America guys (Jim Callis and J. J. Cooper) about a potential package of Alex Wood, Christian Bethancourt, Lucas Sims, and Jose Peraza (4 of the Braves' Top 10 prospects) for Price, and both felt that wouldn't be enough for Tampa in their opinion."

That is a TON to give up for Price, and would be a TON to give up for Max. Wood is a middle rotation LHer, and Sims has Ace potential. This is EXACTLY why I say "hell no" to trading for an Ace. It will simply take too many resources, in both cash and prospcets, to make it happen.

Blow the prospect load for 1 year of an Ace? No chance in hell. Smart teams develope Aces, they do not acquire them in their prime.

Yeah I stated in another thread that no way in hell I would mortgage the future for one year. Price is good but is he dominant? I mean if you look at his numbers this year and compare them to Teheran's and I would say Julio had a better season in his first full year. When I think of an Ace I think of Maddux and while Scherzer had a ridiculous year I'd like to see him repeat it before saying he's a legit ace. Price had a great 2012 but I'd say he's more in line with a Zach Grienke than a Kershaw.

Now if you can land a Felix Hernandez and the not so outrageous contract he has then maybe we can talk but Wood can be a very good pitcher and I really feel Sims is going to be one hell of a pitcher and will be making noise come 2014.

[Enscheff]

The point is not that I think Minor, or Sims, or Wood, or Teheran, or Cabrera will be Aces. In fact, chances are slim that any one of them will become truly elite.

The point is they all have the potential to become an Ace, and each is like a lottery ticket in the "Ace Lottery". So don't trade 2 of them away for 1 season of an Ace who is one torn ligament away from being useless for the duration of his stay in Atlanta.

[cajunrevenge]

The need for an ace is overblown. Medlen and Teheran didnt pitch badly in the playoffs because they werent aces. The Red Sox might just win the world series without a starter with an ERA under 3.50. If we make a trade for an ace we will regret it. We will lose a lot of depth in the organization and tie up a lot of payroll in one player.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Here ya go Mr. Adcox...have at it!!!

http://whensidslid.blogspot.com/2013/10/so-you-want-ace.html

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With a screen name like PawPawMaxwell, my allegiance to a team should be obvious to at least the old guys here. That was the case until the mid 80's and to a limited degree still my 2nd favorite team. Now, while I dont follow them as closely as I did for over 40 years, their stated needs in the Detroit papers and the various fan forums are in order: a 2nd baseman to replace Infante and probably Santiago, a ML LFer and reliable, dependable bull pen help (read closer).

The Tigers have never at least in the DD and Illitch years been much concerned about prospects nor young and rising talent, more so they depend on FA and trades for established stars. There is apparently no end to pizza money. It is my opinion that the only reason that Scherzer is mentioned as a trade rumor is the dearth of, again in order: FA or tradeable 2nd base help other than Infante (as discussed on this board) while guys like Phillips and Hendricks are mentioned often I doubt DD wants to move Scherzer to LAA or move Phillips to his clubhouse. FA LFers are extremely rare these days for some reason, especially those who can put up power numbers which play so well in Detroit. The 3rd need is something that just seems to escape the Detroit staff. Who know why.

Now, having almost written a blog of my own, I see absolutely no reason why Wren would or should even consider trading an Ace in the making for an Ace on the move to FA. Much less the prospects you seem willing to part with.

[Dalyn]

No. Not after reading that.

[Orphan Black]

Scherzer would be nice...I still remember the homerun Heyward hit off him a couple of spring trainings ago...wasn't it almost 500 ft?

[Heyward]

Dont need one.

The cost is WAY too much.

Detroit had a rotation of Verlander, Scherzer, Sanchez, and Fister which is scary and they are sitting at home watching the WS.

[PawPawMaxwell]

Having an Ace would be great but not at the price the writer is prepared to offer. If I read his try correctly he would be prepared to give Teheran, Bethancourt, Peraza and Sims. Just no way that is close to being rational.

Would I like to have Scherzer on my team? Sure. In a minute or less. But if you subscribe to nsacpi's theory about prospects and their value to the majors why would anyone even consider giving 29 years of control for 1 year of an expensive pitcher one bad pitch and one torn ligament away from disaster.

[Knucksie]

That package for Price is insane. If it'd take that much, don't even both inquiring further. Let some other team clear its farm.

Intrigued by the possibility of signing Scherzer through. Definitely, they're going to monitor Hudson's progress, while also considering and upgrade to the veteran of the staff. In the end, there may not end up being a legitimate ace, but it wouldn't come as a surprise to see one new face from outside the organization.

[Teheran_49]

well you can blame Dayton Moore's great trade for James Shields last year. I mean if I was Tampa's GM I guess you should expect a massive haul for Price seeing as he got Wil Myers and some other players for James Shield, Wade Davis and some scrub named Elliot Johnson. James Shield is an under rated pitcher but Wil Myers is an every day player who hit .314/37/100 as a 20 year old in AAA and will make very little the next five years. Though no trade will ever be as bad as the rape scene that went down when Detroit got Miggy Cabrera for absolutely nothing.

[The Chosen One]

I'll take Price, I won't take Scherzer.

[clvclv]

That package for Price is insane. If it'd take that much, don't even both inquiring further. Let some other team clear its farm.

Intrigued by the possibility of signing Scherzer through. Definitely, they're going to monitor Hudson's progress, while also considering and upgrade to the veteran of the staff. In the end, there may not end up being a legitimate ace, but it wouldn't come as a surprise to see one new face from outside the organization.


This, in essence, is the reason for posing the question. Could Teheran turn into Scherzer in two years from now? Absolutely. If you're willing to wait that long, you'll still be putting your eggs in one basket since that would be the last year Justin and Heyward are under control (not to mention you likely no longer have Kimbrel in the 9th inning if your goal is to keep the core together beyond 2015). If Minor and Medlen continue to improve, their arbitration rewards will eat up any money you'd hope to invest in extending Kimbrel or any of your offensive pieces.

The question is, if the current financial constraints remain in place when Julio becomes that guy, how many shots are you going to have while you still have Freddie, Kimbrel, Justin, Heyward, B. J. and Simmons IF you have to pay him "Ace" type money? That answer is none if you have to pay market value for Kimbrel starting in 2015. If you trade him to maximize your return on him (which you absolutely should if the Braves' ownership situation doesn't change by then), suddenly you're dealing with a huge question mark at the end of games regardless of what type of offense you have.

The Braves won ONE Title with three Hall Of Famers - Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz - in the rotation and a marginal pen. Does anyone really think you're going to win with Teheran, Minor, and Medlen in the rotation without Kimbrel making every game an 8 inning affair??? The Tigers ran Verlander, Scherzer, and Sanchez out there with Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder, Victor Martinez, and Torii Hunter in their lineup with a much more questionable back end of their pen and wound up with little to show for it even though they paid way more money.

The main reason I pose the question is this - after having lived through 14 consecutive Division Championships with one Title, would you have been willing to give up a little bit of those last 3-4 years for another ring??? Lots of different answers, and they're all "right" depending on your reasoning. History typically measures "success" by the number of rings, not how many times you were "in the mix" - otherwise Dean Smith would be considered to be John Wooden's "equal".

[The Chosen One]

I think everybody here would take 10 division titles and 2 rings, over 14 division titles and 1 ring.

I think 10 would still be a record in professional sports.

[clvclv]

I think everybody here would take 10 division titles and 2 rings, over 14 division titles and 1 ring.

I think 10 would still be a record in professional sports.

If you think ANY organization is capable of winning 10 Division Titles in the financial environment that exists in MLB without Ted Turner or George Steinbrenner willing to write the checks for Luxury Taxes, I'd love to have a little of what you're smoking.

[stpeteirish]

well you can blame Dayton Moore's great trade for James Shields last year. I mean if I was Tampa's GM I guess you should expect a massive haul for Price seeing as he got Wil Myers and some other players for James Shield, Wade Davis and some scrub named Elliot Johnson. James Shield is an under rated pitcher but Wil Myers is an every day player who hit .314/37/100 as a 20 year old in AAA and will make very little the next five years. Though no trade will ever be as bad as the rape scene that went down when Detroit got Miggy Cabrera for absolutely nothing.

They also got Ordozzi in that trade, who will be the next man in when they trade or otherwise no longer have Price. Myers and Ordozzi is a major haul. They also got another pitcher, Montgomery, who was a top draft pick but doesn't look like he's going to clear AAA.

[The Chosen One]

If you think ANY organization is capable of winning 10 Division Titles in the financial environment that exists in MLB without Ted Turner or George Steinbrenner willing to write the checks for Luxury Taxes, I'd love to have a little of what you're smoking.

I have no idea why you're arguing something I didn't even argue. lol

I said even if we stopped at 10 and had 2 rings, that would still be a record in professional sports (for consecutive division titles).

[Heyward]

I'll take Price, I won't take Scherzer.

I'll take Price with a less than below market extension, otherwise, no.

[cajunrevenge]

How about Kimbrel for Scherzer. 3 years of the best closer(although he cant pitch 2 innings) for one of an "ace" pitcher. Not really sold on Scherzer as an ace but some people are. I do have to admit that a rotation of Scherzer/Medlen/Minor/Teheran/any one of Hudson/Wood/Beachy would be a fantastic rotation. Although Scherzer will get far more money than the braves could ever pay him when he does leave we would get another first round pick which means we would have back to back years with two first round picks to restock the farm system.

[GovClintonTyree]

How about "no".

How about Medlen, Minor, Hudson, Beachy, Teheran and Wood?

Why mess with a great young rotation? Just let them develop. They'll figure it out.

Not everybody can be luckbags like the Cardinals and pull some swingin' dick from AAA to be a playoff ace.

[Heyward]

How about Kimbrel for Scherzer. 3 years of the best closer(although he cant pitch 2 innings) for one of an "ace" pitcher. Not really sold on Scherzer as an ace but some people are. I do have to admit that a rotation of Scherzer/Medlen/Minor/Teheran/any one of Hudson/Wood/Beachy would be a fantastic rotation. Although Scherzer will get far more money than the braves could ever pay him when he does leave we would get another first round pick which means we would have back to back years with two first round picks to restock the farm system.

Not for one year of Scherzer, i'd want a longterm piece back if/when we have to trade Kimbrel.