Market for Catchers

[nsacpi]

Teams likely to be looking for a primary (as opposed to backup )catcher: gnats, Dodgers, Angels, Astros, A's, Diamondbacks, Rays

Teams possibly looking: Braves,Brewers, Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, Rockies, Yankees (if they don't think Gary Sanchez can give them the defense they need).

Supply on the FA market: Grandal, Ramos

Supply on the trade market: Reamulto, Cervelli, Perez, Martin, maybe Posey

A lot of teams will find themselves having to get by without a primary catcher. It is not such a bad thing as the Braves have shown to have a strong tandem where there isn't a clear #1 guy.

The best of the "tandem" type guys on the FA market: Suzuki, Maldonado, McCann, Lucroy

Am I overlooking anyone?

Seems to me this is going to be a strong sellers' market.

[msstate7]

What would McCann cost?

[nsacpi]

What would McCann cost?

my guess is both he and Suzuki would take about 5M

[bravesfanforlife88]

What would McCann cost?

Love Mac but he would be a downgrade over Suzuki at this point in his career

[msstate7]

Love Mac but he would be a downgrade over Suzuki at this point in his career

Probably so. It would be nice to have a l/r combo, but only if Mac rebounded

[JxnMissFan]

Teams likely to be looking for a primary (as opposed to backup )catcher: gnats, Dodgers, Angels, Astros, A's, Diamondbacks, Rays

Teams possibly looking: Braves,Brewers, Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, Rockies, Yankees (if they don't think Gary Sanchez can give them the defense they need).

Supply on the FA market: Grandal, Ramos

Supply on the trade market: Reamulto, Cervelli, Perez, Martin, maybe Posey

A lot of teams will find themselves having to get by without a primary catcher. It is not such a bad thing as the Braves have shown to have a strong tandem where there isn't a clear #1 guy.

The best of the "tandem" type guys on the FA market: Suzuki, Maldonado, McCann, Lucroy

Am I overlooking anyone?

Seems to me this is going to be a strong sellers' market.

I see AA making three moves this off season. 1. A FA signing in the 15 to 20 mil per range. 2. A big trade
3. A couple of low to moderate cost FA.

Since the team moved before the end of the season to lock up flowers I think the catchers position will be a tandem of flowers and a moderate priced vet.

I definitely see McCann as an option because he is a LHH.

I also see Zuk coming back but can understand why he would test the market.

[CrimsonCowboy]

McCann’s good days are behind him. He’d be better suited in the AL where he can DH.

[zbhargrove]

I want Grandal or Realmuto.... the upgrade in the lineup would be massive. Also upgrade the OF and we have a very good team. Sure then let's go ahead and trade for MadBum... why not.

[salmagundy]

Just say NO to Realmuto. His framing skill set is poor at best. A good framer is needed for Newk, Gausman and the others who try to "nibble" when in trouble. A good framer would also help the young guys gain confidence in finding and maintaining a viable strike zone. Of all mentioned, Grandal and Moldanado would be my picks. Which one would be determined by how many $$$ AA can/wants to spend on a catcher to pair with Flowers.

[BeanieAntics]

I want Grandal or Realmuto.... the upgrade in the lineup would be massive. Also upgrade the OF and we have a very good team. Sure then let's go ahead and trade for MadBum... why not.

I'm still a no on adding pitching. Get Grandal or Realmuto, trade or sign for a good corner outfielder, then use some resources to go out and get a good utility option to extend the bench. Maybe leave enough room to add a decent reliever. Maybe.

With all of our pitching, I think it'd be kind of silly to use resources on adding a top flight pitcher given our needs elsewhere. It would be nice, sure. But I see a starting pitcher as more of a want than a need. Our best bet is to shore up the offense and hope that one or two of our young guys emerge as good starters this season. Then maybe hope another one or two make a successful transition to the bullpen.

[zbhargrove]

I'm still a no on adding pitching. Get Grandal or Realmuto, trade or sign for a good corner outfielder, then use some resources to go out and get a good utility option to extend the bench. Maybe leave enough room to add a decent reliever. Maybe.

With all of our pitching, I think it'd be kind of silly to use resources on adding a top flight pitcher given our needs elsewhere. It would be nice, sure. But I see a starting pitcher as more of a want than a need. Our best bet is to shore up the offense and hope that one or two of our young guys emerge as good starters this season. Then maybe hope another one or two make a successful transition to the bullpen.

I'm not big on getting a starter either but MadBum healthy is a different story if the price is right. And I am with you on making all the other needed upgrades first.

[nsacpi]

I keep seeing "if Bumgarner is healthy"....what are we looking for here as indications of health

[BeanieAntics]

I'm not big on getting a starter either but MadBum healthy is a different story if the price is right. And I am with you on making all the other needed upgrades first.

The problem with Madison is the contract. He is going to cost a ton in prospect capital (I'm thinking 50 million+ in surplus value) for only one year of control. Some might make the argument that he might be more likely to sign an extension with us since he's a country boy from North Carolina, but then we have to ask ourselves if he is worth the big contract it would take to retain him at what would be his age 30 season. Especially given his history with health. Obviously a healthy Madbum would be a gamechanger for the rotation, but that seems like one of those "push all your chips in the middle" moves and I'm not confident enough in our ability to win a World Series (yet) to be making a move like that.

When I say this, I'm only talking about an offseason trade. I don't think an offseason trade would be wise. However, if we are in 1st place or competing for a playoff spot in July and the rotation could use some obvious improvement, I may be more amenable. He would cost less then than he would now, we'd know more about his health, and we'd know more about our own competitive agenda by then. That is why it is important that we save ourselves a little money this offseason for some mid season moves.

[msstate7]

I keep seeing "if Bumgarner is healthy"....what are we looking for here as indications of health

He sells his ATV

[zbhargrove]

The problem with Madison is the contract. He is going to cost a ton in prospect capital (I'm thinking 50 million+ in surplus value) for only one year of control. Some might make the argument that he might be more likely to sign an extension with us since he's a country boy from North Carolina, but then we have to ask ourselves if he is worth the big contract it would take to retain him at what would be his age 30 season. Especially given his history with health. Obviously a healthy Madbum would be a gamechanger for the rotation, but that seems like one of those "push all your chips in the middle" moves and I'm not confident enough in our ability to win a World Series (yet) to be making a move like that.

When I say this, I'm only talking about an offseason trade. I don't think an offseason trade would be wise. However, if we are in 1st place or competing for a playoff spot in July and the rotation could use some obvious improvement, I may be more amenable. He would cost less then than he would now, we'd know more about his health, and we'd know more about our own competitive agenda by then. That is why it is important that we save ourselves a little money this offseason for some mid season moves.

Actually think we're pretty much on the same page. That's why I said if the price is right.

[BravesCountry1]

Is there any way, anyway at all that Grandal doesn't receive a Q.O?

<1%??????

[Heyward]

Is there any way, anyway at all that Grandal doesn't receive a Q.O?

<1%??????

Grandal is easily the best catcher on the market, despite his bad postseason and easily gets a QO and wont accept.

Likely gets 4/70/ or 5/85+ or so in that ballpark.

[Southcack77]

The problem with Madison is the contract. He is going to cost a ton in prospect capital (I'm thinking 50 million+ in surplus value) for only one year of control. Some might make the argument that he might be more likely to sign an extension with us since he's a country boy from North Carolina, but then we have to ask ourselves if he is worth the big contract it would take to retain him at what would be his age 30 season. Especially given his history with health. Obviously a healthy Madbum would be a gamechanger for the rotation, but that seems like one of those "push all your chips in the middle" moves and I'm not confident enough in our ability to win a World Series (yet) to be making a move like that.

When I say this, I'm only talking about an offseason trade. I don't think an offseason trade would be wise. However, if we are in 1st place or competing for a playoff spot in July and the rotation could use some obvious improvement, I may be more amenable. He would cost less then than he would now, we'd know more about his health, and we'd know more about our own competitive agenda by then. That is why it is important that we save ourselves a little money this offseason for some mid season moves.


I'm not sure that Bumgarner would be cheaper at the deadline. if you are excited about acquiring him, it's because he's had a big, healthy first half and you are likely bidding against every contender on the market in need of pitching.

Granted, a similar situation might emerge if he became available before free agency really got going. Yankees, Nats, Phillies, Cubs, Brewers would all have to be interested.

[dak]

The multiple reports from Bowman on the Braves' focus on Realmuto has me real nervous. You have to think the acquisition cost will be very high (Bowman mentioned a Soroka and Riley package was discussed in July). His pitch framing numbers the past view years have been consistently poor, so he doesn't figure to be someone you invest heavily in if you're a believer in PF value as a franchise. I'd feel more comfortable shopping the middle tier of the FA or trade market and investing trade chips (lesser ones) in other areas where we may be able to get better value.

[JxnMissFan]

Is there any correlation between the quality of a pitching staff and pitch framing metrics?

[BeanieAntics]

Is there any correlation between the quality of a pitching staff and pitch framing metrics?

I'm sure there is some, but even if you don't account just for the pitching staff, as Enscheff has pointed out numerous times, a quality pitch framer can add up to 3 wins per year just based off of that.

[Heyward]

The multiple reports from Bowman on the Braves' focus on Realmuto has me real nervous. You have to think the acquisition cost will be very high (Bowman mentioned a Soroka and Riley package was discussed in July). His pitch framing numbers the past view years have been consistently poor, so he doesn't figure to be someone you invest heavily in if you're a believer in PF value as a franchise. I'd feel more comfortable shopping the middle tier of the FA or trade market and investing trade chips (lesser ones) in other areas where we may be able to get better value.

I know you cant prospect hoard forever and we'll have to cash in eventually, but Soroka/Riley for Realmuto would be a way overpay. Although Realmuto would improve the big league team immensely and give the team a legit 1-2-3 with Acuna, JT, and Freddie at the top, but JTR's only projected to get 6 mil which is way less than Grandal.

[BeanieAntics]

I know you cant prospect hoard forever and we'll have to cash in eventually, but Soroka/Riley for Realmuto would be a way overpay. Although Realmuto would improve the big league team immensely and give the team a legit 1-2-3 with Acuna, JT, and Freddie at the top, but JTR's only projected to get 6 mil which is way less than Grandal.

I'm anti-JT trade, but what point are you trying to make here exactly? If anything, him making 6 million would be a good thing for us.

[Heyward]

I'm anti-JT trade, but what point are you trying to make here exactly? If anything, him making 6 million would be a good thing for us.

Yes, his value would give AA more money to spend as opposed to Grandal costing a good chunk of our money to use.

[elmore80]

Merrifield and S.Perez for young starters and JT. I don't know witch ones, but I'm sure the Royals would be interested. Then I would use Camargo as part of a deal for a pitcher or left fielder. And I would try and sign Donaldson for 3B and let Riley get ready at AAA.

[msstate7]

Merrifield and S.Perez for young starters and JT. I don't know witch ones, but I'm sure the Royals would be interested. Then I would use Camargo as part of a deal for a pitcher or left fielder. And I would try and sign Donaldson for 3B and let Riley get ready at AAA.

Perez was the worst framer in mlb this year and 2nd worse last season

[elmore80]

Perez was the worst framer in mlb this year and 2nd worse last season
Then get Merrifield and sign Grandal or trade for Realmuto or Hedges. Or just sign Harper to replace Markakis and go with last years team.

[Enscheff]

The market for catcher was already thoroughly broken down here:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/10/2018-19-market-snapshot-catcher.html

[Enscheff]

Then get Merrifield and sign Grandal or trade for Realmuto or Hedges. Or just sign Harper to replace Markakis and go with last years team.

Your solution for not acquiring a terrible framer is to get Realmuto instead? Have you ever looked at framing stats?

The only viable pitch framers available this offseason are Grandal, Maldonado and Ramos...but only in the sense that he is better than Suzuki.

[zbhargrove]

Think I've come to the conclusion that I'd go for Ramos if we are looking at an offensive first catcher... Grandal's post season struggles worry me... seems to be in his head. Ramos is better at every part of the game than Realmuto

[Enscheff]

Think I've come to the conclusion that I'd go for Ramos if we are looking at an offensive first catcher... Grandal's post season struggles worry me... seems to be in his head. Ramos is better at every part of the game than Realmuto

I'm going to guess that no competent team is going to let a 34 poor postseason PAs influence their plans at the catcher position.

[Chico]

I'm going to guess that no competent team is going to let a 34 poor postseason PAs influence their plans at the catcher position.

He had come crazy defensive issues as well, but I don't think it matters at all. It seemed like a weird case of the yips.

The fact he's a switch hitting cathcher with power who excels at pitch framing means he's a buy to me all day.

[elmore80]

Your solution for not acquiring a terrible framer is to get Realmuto instead? Have you ever looked at framing stats?

The only viable pitch framers available this offseason are Grandal, Maldonado and Ramos...but only in the sense that he is better than Suzuki.
And your solution would be? It seems to me that all the catchers have flaws. Money,prospect cost.Can't frame. Can't hit, injury prone. Just sign Suzuki and Harper and be happy! Some fans don't study framing stats.

[Enscheff]

And your solution would be? It seems to me that all the catchers have flaws. Money,prospect cost.Can't frame. Can't hit, injury prone. Just sign Suzuki and Harper and be happy! Some fans don't study framing stats.

Then those fans shouldn't argue about player valuation with fans who do study framing stats because I guarantee competent FOs study framing stats very closely.

I could buy the argument that the Marlins have never impressed upon Realmuto the importance of pitch framing, and maybe he is a candidate to improve dramatically with better analytics/coaching (in fact, I wouldn't even dispute that point of view). However, that is not the same point of view as sticking your head in the sand and remaining willingly ignorant about the value of pitch framing overall.

But I do agree with your implication that it's poor form to criticize a point of view without offering another, so I suppose I'll rehash my preferences for filling the catcher spot again.

1. Grandal for around 5/80
2. Ramos for around 3/40
3. Maldonado for something similar to what Flowers and Suzuki have been paid
4. Trade 2 FV 50 pitchers plus filler for Realmuto
5. Resign Suzuki
6. If none of those 5 catchers can be had at good/fair value, overpay for Ramos or Maldonado

[Southcack77]

the difference between Grandal and Realmuto's framing according to Baseball Prospectus amounts to approximately 16 runs which is equivalent to 1.6 wins.

The difference in their fWar is 1.2 wins (4.8 for Realmuto career high in his age 27 season, 3.6 for Grandal career high in his age 29 season). Realmuto was good for 3.8 WAR and 3.7 WAR in the preceding seasons, meaning his baseline is better than Grandal's career peak at this point.

If you want to studiously accept the math that Baseball Prospectus advocates, that means Grandal was a very slightly better player in 2018. Now that overlooks the other aspects of Prospectus's calculation of defense but I'm not sure to what degree Prospectus's calculations might replicate fangraphs defensive WAR calculation so I will ignore that. If you did not ignore it they would be roughly the same value.

.....

Grandal is two years older and much more likely to hit his decline immediately. Regression to prior career norms would be a reasonable expectation at 30 if nothing else.

Signing him likely requires a commitment for 4-5 years at top of the market catcher salaries (he should be highly coveted on this market by one of the numerous big market teams that could use catching help) and most probably forfeiting a draft pick. You are certainly going to expect decline over the course of that contract and you will be owing him much more money than he is worth, most likely, at the very time your young core pieces are hitting the expensive years of arbitration and other pieces might be hitting free agency.

Realmuto is going to be comparatively cheap in terms of salary, he will require no post-prime commitment. he will require an investment of prospect equity, though whether that would actually end up hurting is unclear. It remains to be seen where the Marlins are in terms of reasonableness at this point.


Maldonado is credited with perhaps being worth .6 framing WAR, to go along with his rough 1 WAR production over the last few years, leaving him a considerably lesser value as a player than Realmuto or Grandal, though one would also suspect considerably cheaper.

[Enscheff]

the difference between Grandal and Realmuto's framing according to Baseball Prospectus amounts to approximately 16 runs which is equivalent to 1.6 wins.

The difference in their fWar is 1.2 wins (4.8 for Realmuto career high in his age 27 season, 3.6 for Grandal career high in his age 29 season). Realmuto was good for 3.8 WAR and 3.7 WAR in the preceding seasons, meaning his baseline is better than Grandal's career peak at this point.

If you want to studiously accept the math that Baseball Prospectus advocates, that means Grandal was a very slightly better player in 2018. Now that overlooks the other aspects of Prospectus's calculation of defense but I'm not sure to what degree Prospectus's calculations might replicate fangraphs defensive WAR calculation so I will ignore that. If you did not ignore it they would be roughly the same value.

.....

Grandal is two years older and much more likely to hit his decline immediately. Regression to prior career norms would be a reasonable expectation at 30 if nothing else.

Signing him likely requires a commitment for 4-5 years at top of the market catcher salaries (he should be highly coveted on this market by one of the numerous big market teams that could use catching help) and most probably forfeiting a draft pick. You are certainly going to expect decline over the course of that contract and you will be owing him much more money than he is worth, most likely, at the very time your young core pieces are hitting the expensive years of arbitration and other pieces might be hitting free agency.

Realmuto is going to be comparatively cheap in terms of salary, he will require no post-prime commitment. he will require an investment of prospect equity, though whether that would actually end up hurting is unclear. It remains to be seen where the Marlins are in terms of reasonableness at this point.


Maldonado is credited with perhaps being worth .6 framing WAR, to go along with his rough 1 WAR production over the last few years, leaving him a considerably lesser value as a player than Realmuto or Grandal, though one would also suspect considerably cheaper.

Do you think a team relying on young pitchers with questionable control would benefit more or less than the average MLB team from catchers with elite pitch framing?

Can you recall which pick in the draft the Braves will lose for signing Grandal, and what that pick is typically worth?

What do you think the cost for Realmuto will be, in terms of prospect dollars?

[Southcack77]

Do you think a team relying on young pitchers with questionable control would benefit more or less than the average MLB team from catchers with elite pitch framing?

Can you recall which pick in the draft the Braves will lose for signing Grandal, and what that pick is typically worth?

What do you think the cost for Realmuto will be, in terms of prospect dollars?


Pretty sure it would be the Braves third highest pick, which would be a second rounder if i recall correctly. I'd guess a slot value of roughly 1 million dollars. A figure that could be used to acquire multiple high first round prospects or even more later round prospects who are available for over slot pays. An valuable resource for a team with very little in the lower minors and no access to the international market.

Realmuto maybe something in the range of 60m in surplus value which would roughly be worth about two of the Braves better prospects plus filler of varying degrees based upon how close to the top the Braves prospects going back were.

I'm not aware of any research based evidence on pitch framing saving more runs for young pitchers than veterans, but I'm happy to read anything you'd like to cite to. My understanding is that there is some effort to control for the value of extra strikes that the starting pitching provides.

[Heyward]

Realmuto's agent said he expects JT to get traded, and he's not interested in an extension, now how much would it cost and how much would you make you okay?

[Enscheff]

Pretty sure it would be the Braves third highest pick, which would be a second rounder if i recall correctly. I'd guess a slot value of roughly 1 million dollars. A figure that could be used to acquire multiple high first round prospects or even more later round prospects who are available for over slot pays. An valuable resource for a team with very little in the lower minors and no access to the international market.

Realmuto maybe something in the range of 60m in surplus value which would roughly be worth about two of the Braves better prospects plus filler of varying degrees based upon how close to the top the Braves prospects going back were.

I'm not aware of any research based evidence on pitch framing saving more runs for young pitchers than veterans, but I'm happy to read anything you'd like to cite to. My understanding is that there is some effort to control for the value of extra strikes that the starting pitching provides.

Correct. It would be a pick around #60 after all is said and done. That is typically a FV 40 guy, who typically carries a surplus value of ~$5M. That is the additional cost of signing Grandal.

$60M in prospect value for JTR sounds reasonable, plus the $15M-$20M he will be paid over the next 2 years is $75M-$80M of resources the Braves must pay out for 2 years of Realmuto...vs $85M-$90M in value for 5 years of Grandal. The value winner is clear here.

No research on young pitchers with control issues benefiting from an elite pitch framer...just common sense. However, logic dictates more opportunities to steal strikes because the pitcher is wild leads to more strikes being stolen. That's just basic arithmetic.

[BravesCountry1]

From MLBTR chat today with Steve Adams...

http://i64.tinypic.com/317jwip.png

*Can't get image to post.HELP!!

[BeanieAntics]

From MLBTR chat today with Steve Adams...

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/LNL9AX1"><a href="//imgur.com/LNL9AX1"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If Grandal really has lost some earning potential based off his postseason results, then we should be all over that. Getting Grandal for less than 70ish million would be a coup for us.

[zbhargrove]

I'm going to guess that no competent team is going to let a 34 poor postseason PAs influence their plans at the catcher position.

Cool... sure seemed to be a head thing to me just watching him though. Discount it if you want... I don't care

[nsacpi]

Even though I think the price for Grandal and Realmuto is likely to be higher than what I would want to pay, there is no harm in checking in on the price. And there is a price at which I would have interest in these guys.

In the case of Grandal if the price dropped to 3 years and an AAV of 14M, I would be interested.

In the case of Realmuto, I would offer them a choice of two of Wentz/Muller/Allard.

In neither case would I expect that to be a winning bid. But you never know.

I think the Plan A for catcher should be one of Maldonado/Suzuki/McCann/Lucroy to work as a tandem with Flowers. And keep an eye on Cervelli, whether in the off-season or mid-season as Plan B.

With this sort of approach, we can be patient and benefit from the tendency of free agent prices to drop as spring training nears.

[Hudson2]

I’d make one of Rosario, Peralta, or Marte a top priority and then one of Grandal and Realmuto my 2nd. Adding 2 of those guys would make our offense very strong going into spring training.

[nsacpi]

Dbacks might be a place where we can do some one-stop shopping. Peralta and Lamb. Offer Touki and Wentz. See what happens.

[Enscheff]

Dbacks might be a place where we can do some one-stop shopping. Peralta and Lamb. Offer Touki and Wentz. See what happens.

Touki? No way bro!!

[nsacpi]

Touki? No way bro!!

Just thinking it might be fun to run that one by the Dbacks.

[Perfect Cell]

McCanns officially a FA

[Chico]

When looking at the costs to acquire realmuto and Grandal I'd almost rather resign Zuk, trade Ender, put Acuna in CF for a year, and get 2 corner OF's to upgrade the offense with one being a 1 year rental.

[Onlyonegoal]

Atlanta Braves
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The Atlanta #Braves last night acquired C Raffy Lopez from the San Diego Padres in exchange for cash considerations. The club’s 40-man roster now stands at 36.


BOOM! Got our guy!

[Enscheff]

Even though I think the price for Grandal and Realmuto is likely to be higher than what I would want to pay, there is no harm in checking in on the price. And there is a price at which I would have interest in these guys.

In the case of Grandal if the price dropped to 3 years and an AAV of 14M, I would be interested.

In the case of Realmuto, I would offer them a choice of two of Wentz/Muller/Allard.

In neither case would I expect that to be a winning bid. But you never know.

I think the Plan A for catcher should be one of Maldonado/Suzuki/McCann/Lucroy to work as a tandem with Flowers. And keep an eye on Cervelli, whether in the off-season or mid-season as Plan B.

With this sort of approach, we can be patient and benefit from the tendency of free agent prices to drop as spring training nears.

Those are some pretty low ball offers, but it would be sweet to get a deal like that.

What about Ramos? To me he is sort of the consolation prize...better defender than JT and a bit less offense than Grandal.

I'd also like to see some research on how much catchers improve their framing when going to teams with better coaching/analytics. A case could be made that Realmuto only sucks at framing because the Marlins suck at knowing baseball facts.

[Chico]

Those are some pretty low ball offers, but it would be sweet to get a deal like that.

What about Ramos? To me he is sort of the consolation prize...better defender than JT and a bit less offense than Grandal.

I think Ramos is the most realistic target. Just worry about those knees

[nsacpi]

Those are some pretty low ball offers, but it would be sweet to get a deal like that.

What about Ramos? To me he is sort of the consolation prize...better defender than JT and a bit less offense than Grandal.

I'd also like to see some research on how much catchers improve their framing when going to teams with better coaching/analytics. A case could be made that Realmuto only sucks at framing because the Marlins suck at knowing baseball facts.

Ramos is hard to peg due to injury history. I wouldn't want to go more than 2 years with him. 2 years AAV of 12M is what I would offer him. Another low ball offer.

[Southcack77]

Ramos is hard to peg due to injury history. I wouldn't want to go more than 2 years with him. 2 years AAV of 12M is what I would offer him. Another low ball offer.


Prospectus has Ramos and Realmuto as roughly comparable framers with Realmuto being better overall defender by virtue of advantages elsewhere.

their offense is perhaps comparable though you might say Realmuto is better bet to perform.

I've seen Ramos as the possible target all along. Knees make it easier to sit him, no comp pick, ought to be a shorter duration contract and less money than Grandal.

Unfortunately, I think this will also occur to Washington, Philly, and the rest of the catcher market as well. He has the feel of the guy who everyone sees as the cheaper option who ends up being pricy.

[Tapate50]

Can any of those dudes throw out a runner for Christ sakes? Teams not running on us at will would likely help in some regard.

[Enscheff]

Can any of those dudes throw out a runner for Christ sakes? Teams not running on us at will would likely help in some regard.

Fans generally over rate blocking and throwing skills by quite a bit.

According to BP, the best blocking catcher saved his team 3.8 runs. The worst blocking catcher cost his team 4.6 runs. That's a total swing of 8.4 runs.

The best throwing catcher saved his team 1.1 runs. The worst throwing catcher cost his team 0.8 runs. That's a total swing of 1.9 runs.

The best framer gained his team 18.3 runs. The worst framing catcher cost his team 17.5 runs. That's a total swing of 35.8 runs.

Framing is far and away the most important skill for a catcher to have, assuming he meets to minimum MLB standard in blocking/throwing. It is roughly 4x as important as blocking, and 18x as important as throwing.

[BeanieAntics]

Those are some pretty low ball offers, but it would be sweet to get a deal like that.

What about Ramos? To me he is sort of the consolation prize...better defender than JT and a bit less offense than Grandal.

I'd also like to see some research on how much catchers improve their framing when going to teams with better coaching/analytics. A case could be made that Realmuto only sucks at framing because the Marlins suck at knowing baseball facts.

I'm also interested in why Ramos hasn't been mentioned much in these discussions. I, for one, would love to have him if we miss out on Grandal or Realmuto. I also think he could be had far more cheaply. Maybe something in the 2/22 range or something like that.

[bravesfanMatt]

Make that three for Ramos as well. Splitting time with Flo would help him stay healthy hopefully. At least less wear and tear. He is a hell of a plan B

[BeanieAntics]

The thing that I like most about Ramos is that if we signed him and traded for our corner outfielder, we could still have a decent amount of money to build our depth up with. I don't expect Ramos to cost more than the 2/12 that nsacpi laid out. Nsacpi and I have been all over adding a utility bench option that hits righties well. If we had a Ramos/Peralta offseason then we could add that and still have some money left over to play around with. Maybe for that bullpen arm that everyone seems to want.