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View Full Version : Update on catcher WAR on Fangraphs


Oklahomabrave
03-19-2019, 07:51 PM
It looks like they’ve included framing in overall value. Of note, it makes Brian McCann look like a HOFer with about 55 career WAR including an 8.9 season.
sturg33
03-20-2019, 08:19 AM
Flowers at 7 in 2017
Carp
03-20-2019, 09:59 AM
Mac with 8.9 WAR in only 145 games...
msstate7
03-20-2019, 10:14 AM
Last season, Suzuki 1.0 (105 games) and flowers 2.5 (82 games)
smootness
03-20-2019, 10:15 AM
It also makes Flowers slightly less valuable than Realmuto from 2016-2018 in 139 fewer games.
thewupk
03-20-2019, 10:23 AM
It also makes Flowers slightly less valuable than Realmuto from 2016-2018 in 139 fewer games.

Indeed.

Fangraphs depth charts has the Phillies catching WAR at 4.3 for 2019 and the Braves with 3.6. And that is with them including zips projections with doesn't account for this like Steamer does.

Maybe there was a reason the Braves didn't up their offer for JTR
thewupk
03-20-2019, 10:26 AM
Mac with 8.9 WAR in only 145 games...

He was a beast early in his career.

This also has Mac with the most WAR of any catcher since him came into the league.
clvclv
03-20-2019, 10:31 AM
He was a beast early in his career.

This also has Mac with the most WAR of any catcher since him came into the league.

Him = BAAAD MAN.
Slippyjms
03-20-2019, 10:40 AM
Interesting note. 3 of the pitchers with the highest increase in WAR from this are Huddy JJ and Hanson
smootness
03-20-2019, 10:42 AM
Indeed.

Fangraphs depth charts has the Phillies catching WAR at 4.3 for 2019 and the Braves with 3.6. And that is with them including zips projections with doesn't account for this like Steamer does.

Maybe there was a reason the Braves didn't up their offer for JTR

That was my argument all along...that if you trust the framing value at all, and I'm assuming the Braves do, it didn't make sense to pay a ton for JTR.
thewupk
03-20-2019, 10:43 AM
Interesting note. 3 of the pitchers with the highest increase in WAR from this are Huddy JJ and Hanson

Mac and Ross helped with that.
thewupk
03-20-2019, 10:44 AM
That was my argument all along...that if you trust the framing value at all, and I'm assuming the Braves do, it didn't make sense to pay a ton for JTR.

Agreed. A healthy Flowers is really good.
nsacpi
03-20-2019, 10:57 AM
Interesting note. 3 of the pitchers with the highest increase in WAR from this are Huddy JJ and Hanson

Wouldn't that be double counting. You want to give the credit for wins to either the catcher or the pitcher. As a matter of fact, I would think that a pitcher's WAR needs to be adjusted down if he is working with a really good framer.
Southcack77
03-20-2019, 11:19 AM
That was my argument all along...that if you trust the framing value at all, and I'm assuming the Braves do, it didn't make sense to pay a ton for JTR.

I just didn't see the point of spending big on Realmuto if that is all you were going to do.

If you'd added ... Haniger and Kimbrell or something then maybe. But to me Realmuto seemed a little too incremental on his own to justify a big cost.
thethe
03-20-2019, 11:25 AM
Agreed. A healthy Flowers is really good.

It is close to spring time
salmagundy
03-20-2019, 11:43 AM
It is close to spring time

Today is 1st day of spring!!!
nsacpi
03-20-2019, 11:48 AM
in the spring there will be growth
4maddux_cy's
03-20-2019, 11:48 AM
Wouldn't that be double counting. You want to give the credit for wins to either the catcher or the pitcher. As a matter of fact, I would think that a pitcher's WAR needs to be adjusted down if he is working with a really good framer.

I’m not sure I agree with that. I mean, would you say Maddux would be less valuable because of his catcher? I’m using an extreme but still.
msstate7
03-20-2019, 11:51 AM
I’m not sure I agree with that. I mean, would you say Maddux would be less valuable because of his catcher? I’m using an extreme but still.

Would his numbers be the same throwing to the best framer vs the worst framer?
Enscheff
03-20-2019, 11:51 AM
Wouldn't that be double counting. You want to give the credit for wins to either the catcher or the pitcher. As a matter of fact, I would think that a pitcher's WAR needs to be adjusted down if he is working with a really good framer.

You are correct. They may be accounting for this, but I haven’t looked into it enough to confirm. I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt though.
4maddux_cy's
03-20-2019, 12:20 PM
Would his numbers be the same throwing to the best framer vs the worst framer?

I just don’t think you can say a pitcher is worse than another just because he has a better teammate. While it could be the case, there is no way to factually know.
nsacpi
03-20-2019, 12:40 PM
I just don’t think you can say a pitcher is worse than another just because he has a better teammate. While it could be the case, there is no way to factually know.

the thing is the WAR system is meant to account for wins by summing the contributions of the individual players...a combination of Maddux and his catcher sums to a certain amount...if the catcher gets more because of refinements in defensive metrics, whatever you give the catcher has to come out of somewhere
nsacpi
03-20-2019, 12:41 PM
Would his numbers be the same throwing to the best framer vs the worst framer?

if so framing has no value
Slippyjms
03-20-2019, 12:51 PM
Correction on my earlier post. I misread the chart. Huddy JJ and Hanson were 3 of the largest WAR decreases. Apologies for the confusion.
JxnMissFan
03-20-2019, 02:55 PM
We forget that McCann was an elite catcher in the past. Isn't his 5/85 deal with the Yanks still the largest free agent contract for a catcher?
Enscheff
03-20-2019, 03:16 PM
We forget that McCann was an elite catcher in the past. Isn't his 5/85 deal with the Yanks still the largest free agent contract for a catcher?

I don't think many Braves fans forget that McCann was an elite catcher.